Oregon Campus Shooting

[Chance]

I know this has been an active discussion in the "Shooting Incidents in the News (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3346-Shooting-incidents-in-the-news)" thread, but I was hoping to compile it here, for ease of reference.

For those unfamiliar, there has been a mass killing at a community college in Oregon. At present, 13 are confirmed dead, and the shooter was evidently killed by police. Linked information is still preliminary, so please take it with a grain of salt. From BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34419802):


At least 13 people have been killed in a shooting at Umpqua Community College in the US state of Oregon. The 20-year-old gunman died after exchanging fire with police officers inside a classroom about 10:30 local time (18:30 BST), officials said. Oregon State Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum said that at least 20 people were wounded.

Also in that article is the initial report that he was using a "long gun" that was potentially outfitted with a suppressor. I don't recall seeing either of those terms in many news reports, so it makes me wonder who they were interviewing.

[PNWTO]

I shared this in the other thread but Reddit has the link to a post on 4Chan last night that was probably from the shooter. I won't directly link it do to some of the enraging comments on that post.

[breakingtime91]

President Obama already bringing up guns. Wow


*edit*
I said it in the shooting incident thread but my heart goes out to the victims and their families.

[Dagga Boy]

It is the gun's fault.....the dictator has spoken.

[Kyle Reese]

Has the shooter's identity been released yet?


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[PNWTO]

It is the gun's fault.....the dictator has spoken.

That's comforting to know. I was worried it was going to be some crazy asshole who was overmedicated and under-loved.

[breakingtime91]

Has the shooter's identity been released yet?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

nope, neither has the weapon he used or how many victims are actually deceased/injured.

[Chance]

So what I'm seeing thus far is that you could actually have a firearm on campus, if you were licensed? Why do people think that leaving your life vest at home somehow makes everyone more buoyant?

[Cincinnatus]

President Obama already calling for more gun control. Wow
First off, sorrow, prayers, and empathy for the families of the victims, and a visceral "may-you-burn-in-hell" to the SOB who perpetrated this atrocity, may he be welcomed with bloody hands into a hospitable grave, if he still lives.

On the political reaction by the Left: With Boehner leaving as Speaker, will he feel bitter enough towards the Republican base to pass a guncontrol bill as a parting middle-finger towards the Tea-Party? I would not put it past a RINO to do this.

[JHC]

It is the gun's fault.....the dictator has spoken.

He knows he cannot truly transform what he can't disarm.

[Drang]

So what I'm seeing thus far is that you could actually have a firearm on campus, if you were licensed? Why do people think that leaving your life vest at home somehow makes everyone more buoyant?
On campus, but not in any building.

[Cincinnatus]

On campus, but not in any building.

It is legal to carry in a parking lot and elsewhere outside of the actual buildings of a campus in TX, too. But it is not actual Campus Carry in Oregon, as I understand it.

[voodoo_man]

I watced his speech.

I nearly threw up in my mouth.

Fuck him, fuck his agenda.

[Cincinnatus]

Poster THCDDM4 on another forum summed up O-Lenin's speech nicely:
"He claims that most gun owners want common sense gun laws, that OUR response as "gun owners" that less gun laws is routine and we know it's false.

He said that states with the most strict gun laws have the fewest gun deaths. And the states with the most lax laws have the most fun deaths.

'Seat belt laws save lives- the notion that gun violence is different; that our freedom and our constitution prohibits any modest regulation of how we use a deadly weapon she. Their are law abiding gun owners across the country who hunt and prove t their families under such regulation- doesn't make sense.'

Blah blah blah.
He's a Piece of Shit."

[MichaelD]

I have nuthin'. I'm pissed off and would love to see these kind of things end, but short of getting rid of all weapons worldwide and somehow making sure there's no evil people in the world, it ain't gonna happen.

Condolences to all affected by this... you're all in my prayers.

ETA... and, naturally, low-information gun owners have started to panic buy. SGAmmo.com is being flogged mercilessly with traffic right now.

[breakingtime91]

I have nuthin'. I'm pissed off and would love to see these kind of things end, but short of getting rid of all weapons worldwide and somehow making sure there's no evil people in the world, it ain't gonna happen.

Condolences to all affected by this... you're all in my prayers.

ETA... and, naturally, low-information gun owners have started to panic buy. SGAmmo.com is being flogged mercilessly with traffic right now.

glad I grabbed 1000 9mm yesterday. This stuff needs to stop but like you said, unless we find a way to get rid of evil it will just happen with a different tool.

[Savage Hands]

Unconfirmed
http://libertynews.com/2015/10/breaking-is-this-the-oregon-shooter-4chan-forum-says-his-name-is-toby-reynolds/

His YouTube page is creepy as hell...

[olstyn]

glad I grabbed 1000 9mm yesterday. This stuff needs to stop but like you said, unless we find a way to get rid of evil it will just happen with a different tool.

No joke; I'm likewise glad that I bought a few years worth of powder and several thousand primers this summer. Perhaps I should get the order for projectiles that I've been putting off for a bit done. It's not like I need them right now, but OTOH, it's not like the price is going to drop soon, either, and I'd rather be smug than panicked. I guess we'll see what sort of "common sense" comes out of this one. :(

[voodoo_man]

http://libertynews.com/2015/10/breaking-alert-this-creepy-eerie-message-board-chat-was-posted-overnight-showing-a-warning-about-campus-shooting-screenshots/

Followed an above link.

If true, not a goblin but still mentally lacking enough to do something like this and post about it.

[RJ]

Damn, very sorry for the families at this time. I can't imagine the pain they are going through.

Props to the LEO(s) who 'neutralized' this guy. To all the LEOs here, thanks for all you do. You guys rock.

[Dagga Boy]

Poster THCDDM4 on another forum summed up O-Lenin's speech nicely:
"He claims that most gun owners want common sense gun laws, that OUR response as "gun owners" that less gun laws is routine and we know it's false.

He said that states with the most strict gun laws have the fewest gun deaths. And the states with the most lax laws have the most fun deaths.

'Seat belt laws save lives- the notion that gun violence is different; that our freedom and our constitution prohibits any modest regulation of how we use a deadly weapon she. Their are law abiding gun owners across the country who hunt and prove t their families under such regulation- doesn't make sense.'

Blah blah blah.
He's a Piece of Shit."

He's full of crap on gun laws. Compare murder rates in Chicago, Washington DC, Baltimore, Etc. to Similar cities in Texas, Oklahoma, or others.

I actually agree with seat belts. I do not go anywhere without wearing one. Schools, malls, highways, military bases, etc. I always wear a seat belt. I also have a pistol on. Never know when a accident or criminal may happen in life. My pistol's are personal safety devices. I can guarantee that if I was in that classroom when the evil person walked in with bad intent expecting lambs to the slaughter...evil would have lost. Instead, evil walked into a gun free zone and won until some good guys with guns got there....unfortunately a lot of lives were taken in that time.

[41magfan]

Not that it really matters, but I'm curious as to the lingo used on this Forum ..... beta uprisings, normies, r9k memes, ??? Can someone decipher this for us out of touch old guys?

http://libertynews.com/2015/10/breaking-alert-this-creepy-eerie-message-board-chat-was-posted-overnight-showing-a-warning-about-campus-shooting-screenshots/

[XXXsilverXXX]

Not that it really matters, but I'm curious as to the lingo used on this Forum ..... beta uprisings, normies, r9k memes, ??? Can someone decipher this for us out of touch old guys?

http://libertynews.com/2015/10/breaking-alert-this-creepy-eerie-message-board-chat-was-posted-overnight-showing-a-warning-about-campus-shooting-screenshots/

What is wrong with people, who edges on a mentally unstable person? Can any one of them be charged as an accessory? I presume the beta males definition can be found on urban dictionary as well as the other nonsense these people spew.

[Sadmin]

Don't waste your time. Your reading the walls of the butthole of the Internet.


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[MickAK]

Unconfirmed
http://libertynews.com/2015/10/breaking-is-this-the-oregon-shooter-4chan-forum-says-his-name-is-toby-reynolds/

His YouTube page is creepy as hell...

That is not the shooter. Some denizens of the imageboard the shooter posted on decided to convince the media it was him as a prank.

[breakingtime91]

He's full of crap on gun laws. Compare murder rates in Chicago, Washington DC, Baltimore, Etc. to Similar cities in Texas, Oklahoma, or others.

I actually agree with seat belts. I do not go anywhere without wearing one. Schools, malls, highways, military bases, etc. I always wear a seat belt. I also have a pistol on. Never know when a accident or criminal may happen in life. My pistol's are personal safety devices. I can guarantee that if I was in that classroom when the evil person walked in with bad intent expecting lambs to the slaughter...evil would have lost. Instead, evil walked into a gun free zone and won until some good guys with guns got there....unfortunately a lot of lives were taken in that time.

Basically summed up a speech I delivered in speech class a year and a half ago

[RoyGBiv]

So what I'm seeing thus far is that you could actually have a firearm on campus, if you were licensed? Why do people think that leaving your life vest at home somehow makes everyone more buoyant?

The way I currently understand it, carry is legal on campus but school policy is that you could be expelled (student), fired (employee) or have your relationship terminated (vendor) if found carrying. But you could not be arrested/charged with a crime.

Not 100% on this.

[RoyGBiv]

Oregon Student Veteran Had Gun 200 Yards from Shooting, Could Not Help (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/01/oregon-student-veteran-gun-200-yards-shooting-not-help/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=UwL4_KDDuhg

[Mr_White]

The way I currently understand it, carry is legal on campus but school policy is that you could be expelled (student), fired (employee) or have your relationship terminated (vendor) if found carrying. But you could not be arrested/charged with a crime.

Not 100% on this.

That is correct. Though it is worth noting there is at least one case of a license holder being arrested and I think charged briefly before they dropped the case. That isn't the norm as far as I know.

[GardoneVT]

That is correct. Though it is worth noting there is at least one case of a license holder being arrested and I think charged briefly before they dropped the case. That isn't the norm as far as I know.

In my state the law is similar.

While one can't be charged with illegal CCW on a college as a specific statute, an armed permit holder on campus can still be hit with brandishing ,tresspass ,disturbing the peace or some combination of the three.

[41magfan]

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-oregon-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/01/umpqua-gunman-id-d-as-chris-harper-mercer.html

[Joe in PNG]

And get ready for more Tinfoilhatter "False Flag Fake" truther nonsense.
Derp and blood dancing from the Left I'm used to.
When "my side" starts with the Infowars bovine excrement, that tends to annoy me.

[voodoo_man]

So hes mixed.

And claims on one site to be a conservative republican.

Except what he posted and his actions showed him to be no different than a middle eastern terrorist.

[LittleLebowski]

Twelve minute speech. Twenty eight references to himself.

[voodoo_man]

Twelve minute speech. Twenty eight references to himself.

What did you expect?

Him gettin up there and saying we need more guns? Less policy that prevents people from being defenseless?
Hes a party man, a "political officer" as we used to say. He's exactly what left deserves in the worst way.

[TCinVA]

Oregon Student Veteran Had Gun 200 Yards from Shooting, Could Not Help (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/01/oregon-student-veteran-gun-200-yards-shooting-not-help/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=UwL4_KDDuhg

Let me go ahead and state for the record that staff/instructors on college campuses...the vast majority of them anyway...do not possess a fucking clue how to respond properly if an active shooter shows up. They have policies created by lawyers and administrators who have no fucking clue and having no other plan, they do that.

When a dude with a gun shows up to kill people none of their bullshit means anything anymore. Do what you fucking have to do.

[41magfan]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/02/forget-oregon-s-gunman-remember-the-hero-who-charged-straight-at-him.html

I don't know if his attempt at unarmed intervention had any impact on the turn of events, but the effort was certainly noble. It's a shame there weren't a couple of dozen more willing to do the same thing as an organized endeavor. They could have used their collective force to beat that worthless POS into a bloody spot in the floor.

I hate what that reveals about people as a whole ..... sheep ready for the slaughter.

[TCinVA]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/02/forget-oregon-s-gunman-remember-the-hero-who-charged-straight-at-him.html

I don't know if his attempt at unarmed intervention had any impact on the turn of events, but the effort was certainly noble. It's a shame there weren't a couple of dozen more willing to do the same thing as an organized endeavor. They could have used their collective force to beat that worthless POS into a bloody spot in the floor.

I hate what that reveals about people as a whole ..... sheep ready for the slaughter.

The overwhelming majority of people have not mentally prepared themselves for the kind of violence necessary to stop an attack.

The overwhelming majority of people will not react as a unit to a threat that emerges in their midst. We have to spend a lot of time and money training guys to respond as a unit to the eruption of gunfire.

I don't think the people who failed to assist the hero were morally weak, they're just human. They had not created what William Aprill would describe as "a parking space" for this sort of event in their head. Once it goes that far out of control they are pretty much in a state of suspended animation.

[RoyGBiv]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/02/forget-oregon-s-gunman-remember-the-hero-who-charged-straight-at-him.html

I don't know if his attempt at unarmed intervention had any impact on the turn of events, but the effort was certainly noble. It's a shame there weren't a couple of dozen more willing to do the same thing as an organized endeavor. They could have used their collective force to beat that worthless POS into a bloody spot in the floor.

I hate what that reveals about people as a whole ..... sheep ready for the slaughter.
Was just reading about this guy on Fox.
The time he bought saved lives. Well done.

[41magfan]

I'm very familiar with the dynamics involved - I was just making an observation.

[BJXDS]

The overwhelming majority of people have not mentally prepared themselves for the kind of violence necessary to stop an attack.

The overwhelming majority of people will not react as a unit to a threat that emerges in their midst. We have to spend a lot of time and money training guys to respond as a unit to the eruption of gunfire.

I don't think the people who failed to assist the hero were morally weak, they're just human. They had not created what William Aprill would describe as "a parking space" for this sort of event in their head. Once it goes that far out of control they are pretty much in a state of suspended animation.

Armed or not everyone must decide what action they will take in a life or death event, and you are correct that most have not prepared themselves to do so. It is true what you say about this, however, keep in mind most of these same people have been taught to NOT act. Active shooter training to the majority of civilians in the work/school environment is to Run and Hide and hope the bad guy will not harm them! Each individual must decide if they are going down swinging. IMHO, at least they have a chance if they do.

[TCinVA]

Armed or not everyone must decide what action they will take in a life or death event, and you are correct that most have not prepared themselves to do so. It is true what you say about this, however, keep in mind most of these same people have been taught to NOT act.


Equally true.

I'm reminded of this:

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/state-politics/20150526-campus-carry-debate-goes-to-the-wire-in-texas-house.ece


I'm very familiar with the dynamics involved - I was just making an observation.

I'm tracking. :D

[voodoo_man]

Let me go ahead and state for the record that staff/instructors on college campuses...the vast majority of them anyway...do not possess a fucking clue how to respond properly if an active shooter shows up. They have policies created by lawyers and administrators who have no fucking clue and having no other plan, they do that.

When a dude with a gun shows up to kill people none of their bullshit means anything anymore. Do what you fucking have to do.

Of course they don't, nor would they even if they were taught, we humans like to check the box for a lot of things "yeah I went through this training, I know what to do" type of bullshit.

Fact is, being prepared is a pipe dream in this situation. The guy in the video left his gun in his car for what purpose? So that he didn't get expelled or arrested (speaking generally of most states) why even bother carrying a gun then?

I know it goes against the grain to say, but people volunteer for these situations. They put themselves in a situation which worked out poorly for them because they did not prepare.

The one guy who rushed the guy in the class roon was willing, he may have been able to win if he had the drop or help, but he was not prepared.

As you said, the legality can be sorted out in court if need be, but if you are dead or dying because you followed rules that are designed to go against you surviving then you made a mistake before you left your house.

[Robinson]

Armed or not everyone must decide what action they will take in a life or death event, and you are correct that most have not prepared themselves to do so. It is true what you say about this, however, keep in mind most of these same people have been taught to NOT act. Active shooter training to the majority of civilians in the work/school environment is to Run and Hide and hope the bad guy will not harm them! Each individual must decide if they are going down swinging. IMHO, at least they have a chance if they do.

Yes. Like clockwork, the reaction from the left is to penalize all the law abiding gun owners who had nothing to do with the crime. Instead of suggesting that people prepare themselves to handle (or at least make an attempt) situations like this, citizens are told to relinquish their ability to protect themselves and instead to rely on the state. As Col. Cooper put it, those who can cope are despised by those who cannot. Most of the people in that school did not react because they have been taught not to. Acting with force against agression is simply a concept that doesn't exist within their thought process.

[41magfan]

Armed or not everyone must decide what action they will take in a life or death event, and you are correct that most have not prepared themselves to do so. It is true what you say about this, however, keep in mind most of these same people have been taught to NOT act. Active shooter training to the majority of civilians in the work/school environment is to Run and Hide and hope the bad guy will not harm them! Each individual must decide if they are going down swinging. IMHO, at least they have a chance if they do.

For lack of a better description, people's response nature is cultural.

For example, if you go into the "hood" as an outsider and initiate acts of violence against its inhabitants, you will quickly find yourself assailed by any number of able-bodied individuals who have never attended a training session or seminar on the unthinkable.

It's a coherent response that is neither planned nor practiced ..... it's just a part of their mindset, even if their motivations might be nefarious.

We (the law-abiding collective) would do well to emulate that behaviorism ..... with pure motives, obviously.

[GardoneVT]

The overwhelming majority of people have not mentally prepared themselves for the kind of violence necessary to stop an attack.

The overwhelming majority of people will not react as a unit to a threat that emerges in their midst. We have to spend a lot of time and money training guys to respond as a unit to the eruption of gunfire.

I don't think the people who failed to assist the hero were morally weak, they're just human. They had not created what William Aprill would describe as "a parking space" for this sort of event in their head. Once it goes that far out of control they are pretty much in a state of suspended animation.

This simple fact is beyond the mindset of most of the chest beating Cleetii I interact with.
"Give the students guns. That'd teach dat there shooter a lesson" . Sure, because no one with a gun ever froze when faced with a deadly force situation.

Mindset is key, and even in our military (see Recruiter Office Incident) a reactive mindset is discouraged. What, you want to kill people like some kind of Neanderthal? Bad guys have families too!
Seriously , even in rural colleges there's a lot of utopian BS about how there is no such thing as evil, only society defines evil, violence is thus always wrong, etc. There's a lot more folks who fly that mental banner then the sort who abide by this quote :

"The answer to criminal aggression is retaliation "

-Jeff Cooper.

[voodoo_man]

For lack of a better description, people's response nature is cultural.

For example, if you go into the "hood" as an outsider and initiate acts of violence against its inhabitants, you will quickly find yourself assailed by any number of able-bodied individuals who have never attended a training session or seminar on the unthinkable.

It's a coherent response that is neither planned nor practiced ..... it's just a part of their mindset, even if their motivations might be nefarious.

We (the law-abiding collective) would do well to emulate that behaviorism ..... with pure motives, obviously.


Just to add to your point, that "hood" mentality is perpetually maintained by an "us vs all, especially outsiders" mentality.

Its the reason they will let a random hood type drug boy run into their house and not let the cops in who are chasing him. Its a community.

We dont have that in a large scale.

[Irelander]

As you said, the legality can be sorted out in court if need be, but if you are dead or dying because you followed rules that are designed to go against you surviving then you made a mistake before you left your house.

AMEN!

[Drang]

So hes mixed.

And claims on one site to be a conservative republican.

Except what he posted and his actions showed him to be no different than a middle eastern terrorist.
Oregon shooter came from California, described as shy and skittish | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/02/us-usa-shooting-oregon-suspect-idUSKCN0RW0C020151002?mod=related&channelName=domesticNews)
Used the screen names "IRONCROSS45" and "Lithium_Love". I was going to insert the eye rolling smiley, but this is too serious for that.

Also, kudos to the sheriff: Oregon sheriff won't 'glorify' mass killing by naming gunman | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/02/us-usa-shooting-oregon-idUSKCN0RV5EP20151002)

And, yeah, once again the SCOAMF-In-Chief double-dips with the mixture of Blood Dancing and Narcissism.

[BehindBlueI's]

Supposedly from shooters blog:
“I have noticed that so many people like him are all alone and unknown, yet when they spill a little blood, the whole world knows who they are. A man who was known by no one, is now known by everyone. His face splashed across every screen, his name across the lips of every person on the planet, all in the course of one day. Seems the more people you kill, the more you’re in the limelight.”


Thanks again, media. Stop celebrating these asshats.

[Irelander]

This is good to read. Glad the Douglas County Sheriff has his head on straight.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/strong-support-for-guns-in-town-shocked-by-college-shooting/ar-AAf1BWj?li=AAa0dzB&ocid=U220DHP

My prayers and thoughts are with the victim's families. I pray for a speedy recovery for those who were injured in this reprehensible attack.

[voodoo_man]

posted an article about this to get my thoughts down...

http://www.vdmsr.com/2015/10/oregon-umpqua-community-college-shooting.html

Nothing that hasn't been already said, just putting out there for future reference.

[DocGKR]

Well said. I absolutely concur. Rather than Nation wringing our collective hands and whining about more "gun control" which will do NOTHING to deter emotinally/mentally disturbed people from violently acting out, perhaps we should allow law abiding citizens, heroes like Chris Mintz, to have the tools they need to defend themselves. If Chris Mintz and others like him had been allowed to legally carry a concealed firearm at school, the outcome would likely have been far different...

[Jeep]

Well said. I absolutely concur. Rather than Nation wringing our collective hands and whining about more "gun control" which will do NOTHING to deter emotinally/mentally disturbed people from violently acting out, perhaps we should allow law abiding citizens, heroes like Chris Mintz, to have the tools they need to defend themselves. If Chris Mintz and others like him had been allowed to legally carry a concealed firearm at school, the outcome would likely have been far different...

Exactly. But the gun controllers aren't interested in fixing the problem of crazies shooting people; they are interested is disarming the American people so they can be controlled.

[warpedcamshaft]

I always go back to this article when some POS shoots innocent people.

http://www.policeone.com/Gun-Legislation-Law-Enforcement/articles/6183787-PoliceOnes-Gun-Control-Survey-11-key-lessons-from-officers-perspectives/

[warpedcamshaft]

Also, in my mind, the continuous development of increasingly robust 3D printable magazines for the AR-15 makes attempts to control magazine capacity nationally ludicrous. You will never be able to stop the internet from distributing those plans and an individual with ill-will can print magazines the evening before his attack.

[GardoneVT]

Also, in my mind, the continuous development of increasingly robust 3D printable magazines for the AR-15 makes attempts to control magazine capacity nationally ludicrous. You will never be able to stop the internet from distributing those plans and an individual with ill-will can print magazines.

As others have said, its not about actual safety.

It's a mindset problem. People who run colleges attend The Church of Bureaucracy, and are dilligent members indeed. I've known professors and administrators who'd make the worst rear echelon military rule-nazi look like a junior apprentice. These folks really believe if you outlaw an activity, it will cease to exist.

Add that philosophy to opprotunistic politicians playing to their constituents , and you get modern gun control.

[warpedcamshaft]

As others have said, its not about actual safety.

It's a mindset problem. People who run colleges attend The Church of Bureaucracy, and are dilligent members indeed. I've known professors and administrators who'd make the worst rear echelon military rule-nazi look like a junior apprentice. These folks really believe if you outlaw an activity, it will cease to exist.

Add that philosophy to opprotunistic politicians playing to their constituents , and you get modern gun control.

Well stated.

[Wondering Beard]

Wonder what you guys think of this:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/02/how-to-stop-mass-shootings/

[Luger]

Germany has pretty strict gunlaws. Austria and Switzerland don't.

In Austria every adult may purchase a shotgun without license or registration. In Switzerland every reserve soldier may take his full auto military rifle home.

Murderrates are not higher in these countries, than over here.

A mass murderer will not turn into a law abiding citizen, if he has no gun.

A law abiding citizen will not turn into a mass murderer, if he has a gun.

[TCinVA]

Wonder what you guys think of this:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/02/how-to-stop-mass-shootings/

Nobody ever dialed 911 hoping a pajama boy was going to show up.

[BaiHu]

Chris Mintz's gofundme page:

https://www.gofundme.com/s75ge9y4

[idahojess]

[QUOTE=Drang;357656]
Also, kudos to the sheriff: Oregon sheriff won't 'glorify' mass killing by naming gunman | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/02/us-usa-shooting-oregon-idUSKCN0RV5EP20151002)

This is the right approach. I remember how angry I was in 2007 when the national media repeatedly played the Virginia Tech shooter's videos over and over after his psychopathic murders. Unfortunately, most people know these evil-doer's names, but they probably can't name one of the three guys who stopped the Belgian-French Train Attack. We do not give attention to the right people, and instead dive deeply into the minds and lives of sick, twisted, accomplishment-free individuals in order to "understand" them better.

[Peally]

Agreed. I'm also in favor of not publishing body counts.

[Matt O]

Let me go ahead and state for the record that staff/instructors on college campuses...the vast majority of them anyway...do not possess a fucking clue how to respond properly if an active shooter shows up. They have policies created by lawyers and administrators who have no fucking clue and having no other plan, they do that.

My university's guidance on a potential active shooter situation is to hide in your office and, if necessary, throw office supplies at the individual. I shit you not. We are of course situated in a metropolitan-wide gun free zone and I have an office door made of glass so, I suppose if I were to pull the short straw that day, I'll have to grab my scissors and box opener and make a go of it. This sort of approach is indicative of the theory land that much of academia lives in, but that's a discussion for another time.

The sheer amount of harm that can be committed in a short amount of time against a concentrated population of people who either A) do not know how/are not committed to defending themselves or B) are placed in a defenseless position due to local regulations is rather frightening.

[JHC]

Wonder what you guys think of this:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/02/how-to-stop-mass-shootings/

While he makes some valid points; where I think he was going was kind of a dead end. It's a badly broken culture with an enormous number of broken families and broken psyches that has spawned untold thousands of these candidates. I don't know that they are save-able with a bro hug thing.

[TCinVA]

My university's guidance on a potential active shooter situation is to hide in your office and, if necessary, throw office supplies at the individual. I shit you not. We are of course situated in a metropolitan-wide gun free zone and I have an office door made of glass so, I suppose if I were to pull the short straw that day, I'll have to grab my scissors and box opener and make a go of it. This sort of approach is indicative of the theory land that much of academia lives in, but that's a discussion for another time.

The sheer amount of harm that can be committed in a short amount of time against a concentrated population of people who either A) do not know how/are not committed to defending themselves or B) are placed in a defenseless position due to local regulations is rather frightening.

I can sympathize.

I've had that conversation with folks and I've talked about using door stops and something like a belt to block the mechanism of a self-closing door, etc.

I'd love to see somebody like SouthNarc or Chuck Haggard going to various campuses teaching about various aspects of personal security and active shooter response.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My school was the same as Matt's. Run, hide, fight. NO real conceptualization of meaningful fighting options. I made the point by labeling it as "The first 30 die". Said that to the TX House in the campus carry debate. Told that to our President (gun hater), head of the Crisis Team and campus chief. Need it be said the chief never answers me when I bring this up. Most of the academics are antigun for political reasons or cannot conceive of aggressive and lethal self-defense.

Our active shooter video conceptualizes fighting as a shooter just wandering through a door way and you can hit him with the fire extinguisher. Or he wanders and stands there while you throw crap at him.

The only real hope are state legislatures that have the guts to overturn campus crappola and mandate carry be allowed - even at private schools.

Then, it is the responsibility of the carriers to train. One argument I've heard is that they might be ok with some vetted carriers but they fear the guy (usually a guy) who just shoots at the square range with a Taurus 85. They don't know that detail but are scared off the untrained.

PS - about Chuck or Craig making a presentation. There are folks who come to schools to do the Active Response training, they are usually anti gun carry.

Here's a mindset comment. The active shooting training (a video) was announced with : What would you do if an active shooter entered your comfort area?

Entered your comfort area - sounds like a K-Y Jelly or Preparation H commercial.

[Peally]

I would honestly be interested in that sort of class focus. Working in one of these areas makes it about 2/3rds of my day where I'm armed with a couple pens in an office.

[scw2]

Exactly. But the gun controllers aren't interested in fixing the problem of crazies shooting people; they are interested is disarming the American people so they can be controlled.

I think a lot of people advocating that in the public aren't out to control others, but they're scared and ignorant. A lot of them will even agree that a ban will just change the avenue of attack. But it's easy to do something and feel better, even if it does nothing to really improve the health or lives of the people they're so scared of losing or prevent violence from the broken people that exist in our society.

[JHC]

Schools have sports. I figure they ought to be copacetic with a few aluminum softball bats in each classroom.

[rob_s]

Situations like this one make me MORE likely to carry in gun-free zones than in those areas where it is not prohibited. it is clear that the attackers go to places where they know that the victims are least likely to be armed. Another fact that seems to escape the hoplophobes. In every case I can think of where a mas killer was offered armed resistance they were either DRT or ran off.

[Peally]

I can just blow off a normal sign, honestly that's just being responsible. What really sucks is the little threat of major felony on a daily basis for government workers ;)

[olstyn]

My university's guidance on a potential active shooter situation is to hide in your office and, if necessary, throw office supplies at the individual. I shit you not. We are of course situated in a metropolitan-wide gun free zone and I have an office door made of glass so, I suppose if I were to pull the short straw that day, I'll have to grab my scissors and box opener and make a go of it. This sort of approach is indicative of the theory land that much of academia lives in, but that's a discussion for another time.

Large corporations are the same way.

My former employer, ironically a retail chain that has a large red circle with a smaller red circle inside as a logo, prohibits employees from even carrying a pocket knife, let alone an actual weapon. I was the guy in charge of letting vendors in through the back door at all hours of the night, and the security camera outside said back door that (should have) let me to see who I was letting in was broken for about the last year and a half that I worked there. No matter how many times I complained about it, it never got fixed. Let me tell you, I felt super good about having to let random folks in without even getting a look at them first. At least nobody told me I couldn't have my FourSevens flashlight, so I guess I'd have been able to strobe a bad guy to death... :rolleyes:

[texasaggie2005]

I can sympathize.

I've had that conversation with folks and I've talked about using door stops and something like a belt to block the mechanism of a self-closing door, etc.

I'd love to see somebody like SouthNarc or Chuck Haggard going to various campuses teaching about various aspects of personal security and active shooter response.

That reminds me of this blog post from Straight Forward in a Crooked World. (http://straightforwardinacrookedworld.blogspot.com/search?q=active+shooter) Some pretty good ideas in here I think.

[HCM]

My school was the same as Matt's. Run, hide, fight. NO real conceptualization of meaningful fighting options. I made the point by labeling it as "The first 30 die". Said that to the TX House in the campus carry debate. Told that to our President (gun hater), head of the Crisis Team and campus chief. Need it be said the chief never answers me when I bring this up. Most of the academics are antigun for political reasons or cannot conceive of aggressive and lethal self-defense.

Our active shooter video conceptualizes fighting as a shooter just wandering through a door way and you can hit him with the fire extinguisher. Or he wanders and stands there while you throw crap at him.

The only real hope are state legislatures that have the guts to overturn campus crappola and mandate carry be allowed - even at private schools.

Then, it is the responsibility of the carriers to train. One argument I've heard is that they might be ok with some vetted carriers but they fear the guy (usually a guy) who just shoots at the square range with a Taurus 85. They don't know that detail but are scared off the untrained

Your Taurus 85 guy most likely has a CHL so he can keep his Taurus as a " car gun" and therefore will be of no consequence in the outcome of a mass shooting.

[Chance]

Wonder what you guys think of this:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/02/how-to-stop-mass-shootings/

Reminds me of the guy that killed six people near UCSB last year.

[Tamara]

"We're yet again going to be bombarded with discussions about taking guns away from the wrong people instead of arming the right ones. There weren't four too many guns in that classroom, there was one too few."

It removes a lot of cachet from your planned killing spree if you know that one or three people are going to spark your ass the second you throw down.

[GardoneVT]

Large corporations are the same way.

My former employer, ironically a retail chain that has a large red circle with a smaller red circle inside as a logo, prohibits employees from even carrying a pocket knife, let alone an actual weapon. I was the guy in charge of letting vendors in through the back door at all hours of the night, and the security camera outside said back door that (should have) let me to see who I was letting in was broken for about the last year and a half that I worked there. No matter how many times I complained about it, it never got fixed. Let me tell you, I felt super good about having to let random folks in without even getting a look at them first. At least nobody told me I couldn't have my FourSevens flashlight, so I guess I'd have been able to strobe a bad guy to death... :rolleyes:

The motivations for companies vs colleges is somewhat different.

Companies , especially national chains, aren't in business to advance the Constitution. From a profit-margin perspective their stance is this:
Bad guy whacks entire staff, it becomes the firm's death benefit insurance carrier's problem.

Singular bad guy gets whacked by staff member, the resulting wrongful death lawsuit becomes THEIR problem.

The college however has a major ideological problem with self defense on campus. The social status quo is that college students are human cattle to be guided and instructed by All Knowing Administrators, and common sense be damned. Case in point; if one looks at any college rulebook on weapons, the rules technically ban pocketknives as well as guns.

To shift gears a bit, concealed carry on a college campus which forbids it can be done-but there's some major logistical caveats that have to be considered. You'll have to "read -in" any girl you're dating at the jump: because she'll find whatever you're carrying however you carry it.Even if she's OK with you carrying against campus policy /state law -a rather big IF in some places- she'll tell others. Yeah yeah she'll promise not to , but girls tell all to each other -especially where alcohol is involved .One person tells another, and eventually you'll get a knock on the door . Gender is no discrimination either -your dude pals will yack about OMG , didyaknow so and so carries a Glock to Calculus?

Then there's the actual risk of being made. Backpacks can block a pistol draw if carried IWB strong side. Shoulder holsters can clank against chair backs and walls. Using bathrooms requires a trip off campus for absolute certainty against being discovered. Standing in a crowded food tray line involves constant focus to ensure you don't brush up against your neighbor while reaching for the pizza.

If a spare mag falls out in the street, you just look like an ass. I don't even want to know what you'd look like if your mag or some other CCW accoutrement detached itself in front of thousands of kids and video cameras in the campus quad.

Speaking of booze, alcohol is obviously very common in college. So is drug use. In my state , being in the same room as marijuana can be a chargeable offense. If you're invited to a house party -or wind up in one as a matter of random events- and the owners are toking up you'll have to make some serious decisions. Especially if LE shows up for a noise violation .

BTW; don't buy the common campus dudebro reasoning of "dontworry, cops need a warrant to get in here". In most places hosting underage consumption is PC enough for entry. In one case I know of the cops stopped the party because an attendee had outstanding drug warrants and they entered to effect the arrest . Should LE show up and there's booze, weed, chopped up Adderall and armed you....might be bad night. Even if you're stone cold sober that combination of factors won't look good.

Sure you can opt out of all that,but it limits your social life significantly.Being that I was an older student I could decline the party scene and still enjoy the company of similarly mature friends,but a high-schooler fresh to the area really needs to make friends right in the demographic prone to Doing Stupid S**t. Packing an illegally carried gun on campus makes this difficult.

Then there's the tactical considerations. I'd rather clear a room blind than defend a typical college classroom from an assault. I often played the "what if" game going about university between classes, and what I saw was unsettling.

Secured doors are frequently opened for strangers . So what your daughter's dorm building has a key card lock-guaranteed there's some punk or a group thereof in the back propping the door open so they can sneak a smoke break .Even then , all one needs is a decent suit and an official voice : "I work for the university . I need to get into Building X to check on the 3rd floor printer settings".

Done. Keys and cards don't mean squat.

Next the classroom layouts seem to be custom designed for the use of not only a professor, but anyone intent on mass murder. Single hallways, glass doors (???) , single points of entry and exit with no or few windows, theater-style seating so that one guy can hit every single person in the room by shooting from the front, and so forth. Long distances in lecture halls which make 30-40 yard pistol shots very likely should Stuff Hit The Oscillator. Then there's the large number of stunned bystanders combined with the absolute lack of cover and concealment. Even Harvard doesn't have bullet resistant desks or chairs, and there's usually nothing to hide behind between the professors' podium and the back wall. BYOB(Bring Your Own Ballistic protection) .

Campus PD? Not really a viable response option. Burning rubber they might get to the scene in five minutes ,but by then either the bad guy will be down or his victims. A devious attacker would compromise the response time via a false alarm call, and then perpetrate the assault on the other end of campus. A single well trained attacker -no disrespect to the people affected by recent shooters- could do greivous harm which would vastly eclipse anything seen to date.
A team of squared away scumbags......well, some hypotheticals are too horrid to contemplate here.

I can't speak to whether someone attending college should go against law and social custom and carry. What I can say is this; an individual who does so may literally be the only one capable of standing in the way of heinous tragedy.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Companies - I had a crappy part time job and while seated at my cubicle, a Spyderco decided to fall on the floor. OMG - they decided I was OK to keep but was sternly warned. Luckily the 642 didn't peep out. It was legal to carry there but not company policy.

[Drang]

Chris Mintz's gofundme page:

https://www.gofundme.com/s75ge9y4

Heh. Goal was $10,000.
So far, in 7 hours, has raised $276,371.
I say, keep it coming.

[StraitR]

Heh. Goal was $10,000.
So far, in 7 hours, has raised $276,371.
I say, keep it coming.

Nice. You can literally sit on that page and hit refresh to see it constantly going up. His name, others like him, and those that lost their lives should be the only people talked about from that incident. Names of those committing these acts should never be mentioned or reported, leaving them just as meaningless and anonymous as they ever were.

[olstyn]

The motivations for companies vs colleges is somewhat different.

Motivations may be different, but the end result, in terms of official policy, is roughly the same. I don't mean to minimize your lengthy discourse, but you're preaching to the choir. Carrying in a place where it's forbidden via policy is risky either way, and might potentially be life-saving either way.

[StraitR]

Chris Mintz's gofundme page:

https://www.gofundme.com/s75ge9y4

Because it's worth quoting again, and it just passed $360,000 in 9 hours. It's blowing up now that people are getting home and seeing it passed around. I wouldn't be surprised if it hit a cool $1,000,000.

[HCM]

No idea if this info is legit but this story claims the shooter was an Islamist who was on a terror watch list the Russians passed to the U.S.

http://www.eutimes.net/2015/10/oregon-mass-shooter-on-terror-list-obama-refused-to-take-from-russia/

My first tjought is Russian propaganda but given the Tsarnayev brothers and the GOV's history of trying to down play Islamist lone wolf attacks one has to wonder.

[JHC]

No idea if this info is legit but this story claims the shooter was an Islamist who was on a terror watch list the Russians passed to the U.S.

http://www.eutimes.net/2015/10/oregon-mass-shooter-on-terror-list-obama-refused-to-take-from-russia/

My first tjought is Russian propaganda but given the Tsarnayev brothers and the GOV's history of trying to down play Islamist lone wolf attacks one has to wonder.

Helluva coincidence he hits a school where the French train hero Guardsman was enrolled.

[Drang]

With Obama, all things are possible...

...Am I the only one asking "MySpace? is that still a thing?"

[JHC]

With Obama, all things are possible...

...Am I the only one asking "MySpace? is that still a thing?"

No there is at least me too.

[voodoo_man]

No idea if this info is legit but this story claims the shooter was an Islamist who was on a terror watch list the Russians passed to the U.S.

http://www.eutimes.net/2015/10/oregon-mass-shooter-on-terror-list-obama-refused-to-take-from-russia/

My first tjought is Russian propaganda but given the Tsarnayev brothers and the GOV's history of trying to down play Islamist lone wolf attacks one has to wonder.

I mean...it just needs to be alleged in order to be true...media and all that

[BaiHu]

No there is at least me too.
Make that 3.

[Tamara]

No idea if this info is legit but this story claims the shooter was an Islamist who was on a terror watch list the Russians passed to the U.S.

http://www.eutimes.net/2015/10/oregon-mass-shooter-on-terror-list-obama-refused-to-take-from-russia/

My first tjought is Russian propaganda but given the Tsarnayev brothers and the GOV's history of trying to down play Islamist lone wolf attacks one has to wonder.

I'd need to see that corroborated from a more reliable source, like debkafiles or prisonplanet. :rolleyes: ;)

[Tamara]

Helluva coincidence he hits a school where the French train hero Guardsman was enrolled.

Because he was enrolled in classes there. Sometimes coincidences really are just that.

Seriously, did ISIL enroll their atheist Islamist mole at the university ahead of time? "Someday, insha'allah, a student in this community college will defeat a spontaneous terrorist attack from one of our sympathizers in the land of the Franks and Crusaders. We want you to be ready to inflict vengeance on the far enemy when he does. Pretend to like the IRA and be an atheist in the meantime."

[LittleLebowski]

Because he was enrolled in classes there. Sometimes coincidences really are just that.

Seriously, did ISIL enroll their atheist Islamist mole at the university ahead of time? "Someday, insha'allah, a student in this community college will defeat a spontaneous terrorist attack from one of our sympathizers in the land of the Franks and Crusaders. We want you to be ready to inflict vengeance on the far enemy when he does. Pretend to like the IRA and be an atheist in the meantime."

Damn, you're good. *like*

[Drang]

I'd need to see that corroborated from a more reliable source, like debkafiles or prisonplanet. :rolleyes: ;)
I was thinking InfroWars, but no one I've worked with has heard of DebkaFiles...

[Drang]

Another meaningless factoid: Shooter was born in UK, supported IRA (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-born-gunman-chris-harper-6558370).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

He also complained he was a virgin. So ban virginity? The exact meaning of his ramblings will be surface manifestations of some deeper disturbance. I've seen some idiot psychiatrist on CNN waving a Rubik's cube as a model for predicting such outbreaks. The lit says we really have nothing that predicts without a tremendous number of false positives.

The only things that seem to predict are:

1. Past history of violence (but you don't always see that).
2. Telling folks that you do such an act
3. A secret arsenal - that means you have lots of guns but really don't engage in gun usage, sports, competitions, telling folks about your guns.

But none of these are guarantees that wouldn't produce thousands of false positive. I read that SAFE in NY produced 38K reports. Certainly we don't see that number of active shooters.

Standard personality tests are useless. Another expert suggested that suicide screening might be useful as lots of these folks are sucidial. Suggested that gun stores ask the standard suicide risk questions before a sale. While suicide prevention is worthwhile, I can't see stores doing it. It might be useful to have a suicide prevention pamphlet on the counter? I don't know but it could aid someone. However, most guns stores would balk at such.

[Drang]

Weirder and weirder. Sounds like he got a "Failure To Adjust" discharge from Basic (reading betweent he lines) and was turned down by a shooting skool for "weirdness."
Gunman in Oregon massacre was turned away from firearms academy | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/03/us-usa-shooting-oregon-idUSKCN0RV5EP20151003)

ETA: Cannot comment on Reuters' website that I can find, and it would probably do no good to point out that the 294 figure they regurgitate uncritically for the "number of mass shootings" is warped by the source's definition of "mass shooting."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Good read - http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/10/02/umpqua-community-college-shooting-oregon-mass-shooting-fbi-statistics-column/73199052/

Fox is a very well know criminologist and expert on the issues. Has a good book dispelling myths.

[41magfan]

I'm being serious in asking these questions;

Assuming we could get past the theoretical hurdle of reliably identifying folks predisposed to doing bad things, let’s move on to the easy part; what would you suggest we do about it?

Without totally scraping the Constitution, what practical measures could possibly be implemented to prevent innocent people from being victimized by these folks we've identified?

[JHC]

Because he was enrolled in classes there. Sometimes coincidences really are just that.

Seriously, did ISIL enroll their atheist Islamist mole at the university ahead of time? "Someday, insha'allah, a student in this community college will defeat a spontaneous terrorist attack from one of our sympathizers in the land of the Franks and Crusaders. We want you to be ready to inflict vengeance on the far enemy when he does. Pretend to like the IRA and be an atheist in the meantime."

There you go. Answered your own question! ;)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

What practical measures?

For a gun forum:

1. Trained civilian gun users who can carry almost anywhere. That's maximum.
2. Are the folks with the Kel-tec 9mms and Taurus 85s useful? I dunno.
3. Have realistic and specific training in higher threat locales. Think about the escape routes, can you barricade the doors (not with your body)?
4. Report threats!! That's taken out a great number of folks before they act. Usually it is women or girls that report. Most males are too stupid to report such or paralyzed by group macho crap.
5. Stupid relatives - if you have a person who is seriously disturbed, depressed, sucidial, etc. - maybe you should lay off the gun world with that person. Taking such a person to gun things as trying to give him a new hobby - pass on that. Kip Kinkle's parent bought him a Glock because he wanted one and they were afraid he would just get one off the streets. Didn't work out well.

[41magfan]

What practical measures?

For a gun forum:

1. Trained civilian gun users who can carry almost anywhere. That's maximum.
2. Are the folks with the Kel-tec 9mms and Taurus 85s useful? I dunno.
3. Have realistic and specific training in higher threat locales. Think about the escape routes, can you barricade the doors (not with your body)?
4. Report threats!! That's taken out a great number of folks before they act. Usually it is women or girls that report. Most males are too stupid to report such or paralyzed by group macho crap.
5. Stupid relatives - if you have a person who is seriously disturbed, depressed, sucidial, etc. - maybe you should lay off the gun world with that person. Taking such a person to gun things as trying to give him a new hobby - pass on that. Kip Kinkle's parent bought him a Glock because he wanted one and they were afraid he would just get one off the streets. Didn't work out well.

I view those things as countermeasures and that's stuff we already are doing without regard to any specificity concerning the threat.

What I'm asking is this;

If we knew John Mayhem was predisposed to committing a mass killing based on some testing or criteria, what could you practically do about it irrespective of all the things you can already do now?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are procedures - for commitment to a mental health facility.

http://www.oregon.gov/oha/amh/Pages/civil-commitment.aspx

Can you treat him successfully? How long can you keep him? Would parents or relatives be willing to do such to a relative and drop that stigma on the person? Are the relatives sophisticated enough to comprehend such options? Can reasonable out patient treatment follow up?

What else is there to do?

Then, the reporting to NICS should be implemented in all states. It might not stop all from getting guns but it might stop some. If you don't like NICS on a constitutional basis - that's a different argument.

[GardoneVT]

I view those things as countermeasures and that's stuff we already are doing without regard to any specificity concerning the threat.

What I'm asking is this;

If we knew John Mayhem was predisposed to committing a mass killing based on some testing or criteria, what could you practically do about it irrespective of all the things you can already do now?

Nothing.

Let's assume we don't have a Bill of Rights and the test cannot be altered or edited by the processing authorities -(IE, black subjects aren't pursued or false positive'd to avoid angering black electorate) .

How do we fix the source motivations? Can they even be fixed? Some varieties of scumbags are simply unevolved trash.Lots of guys sitting in jail and on the lam whove not only done Bad Stuff, but are proud of doing evil and will only stop doing Bad Stuff when they're incarcerated or dead. Inevitably this perfect filtering process is going to encounter the pre-scumbag who has always wanted to kill innocent people en masse and won't rest until they've done so.

Then what?

[YVK]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned here, but I just saw a news bit about this pos being denied an enrollment into a firearms training class. I thought that was interesting.

[45dotACP]

I view those things as countermeasures and that's stuff we already are doing without regard to any specificity concerning the threat.

What I'm asking is this;

If we knew John Mayhem was predisposed to committing a mass killing based on some testing or criteria, what could you practically do about it irrespective of all the things you can already do now?
I'd suggest evaluation by a competent psychiatrist.

There is also the process of petition and certificate if it is known that John Mayhem has plans to commit a mass killing. These things should have been done with certain shooters who had voiced their plans to other people.

If you see something, say something. Better a possibly disturbed person be evaluated than an actually disturbed person be allowed to carry out a spree killing.

All that said, in my geographical location, we had 12 shootings occur in 12 minutes across the city...so these occasional spree killers....no matter how "regularly" they occur according to His Highness....pale in comparison to what happens in his own city on a weekend. If any of these lefties wanted to do anything about gun violence, they might wanna start with that.

But they don't. Political dogma is regurgitated like yesterday's leftovers when a spree shooting happens, but the War zone on Chicago's south side is given 8th page press.

The fact that we continue to get a body count equivalent of the "(insert name here) massacre" as a regular weekend event in my City means something still isn't working right. I'm not referring strictly to guns, but something in the City is all wrong.

[voodoo_man]

I'd suggest evaluation by a competent psychiatrist.

There is also the process of petition and certificate if it is known that John Mayhem has plans to commit a mass killing. These things should have been done with certain shooters who had voiced their plans to other people.

If you see something, say something. Better a possibly disturbed person be evaluated than an actually disturbed person be allowed to carry out a spree killing.

All that said, in my geographical location, we had 12 shootings occur in 12 minutes across the city...so these occasional spree killers....no matter how "regularly" they occur according to His Highness....pale in comparison to what happens in his own city on a weekend. If any of these lefties wanted to do anything about gun violence, they might wanna start with that.

But they don't. Political dogma is regurgitated like yesterday's leftovers when a spree shooting happens, but the War zone on Chicago's south side is given 8th page press.

The fact that we continue to get a body count equivalent of the "(insert name here) massacre" as a regular weekend event in my City means something still isn't working right. I'm not referring strictly to guns, but something in the City is all wrong.

What happens in your city (and mine) are drastically different than the active shooter issue we are talking about, though both have similar issues, they drastically different from each other.

Where I work, we have a lot of people shot every week, especially in the summer but if you were to turn on the news you would never hear about it. Why? Because its corner hood boy shooting at another corner hood boy and all of which has to do with street level drug "wars" or whatever. They are, mostly, convicted criminals and felons or otherwise prohibited persons but yet they still get their hands on firearms, how can that be possible? It is the point I have argued often enough to be sick of bringing it up, we do not do a good enough job of using the laws on the books and charging these societal vampires enough so that they do serious time in prison. Instead they cut deals and eventually someone gets killed and the only person who is held responsible is the criminal (rightfully so) while there are others who should be brought into the limelight and made to answer why they gave deals or slaps on the wrist to these persons. I've been to several funerals for my coworkers who have been gunned down in the line of duty by those who have numerous violent felony arrests, two of which had prior gun arrests and got deals to get back out on the street. That needs to end, the DA's and lawyers who allow these types of things to occur should be prosecuted for misconduct.

[41magfan]

There are procedures - for commitment to a mental health facility.

http://www.oregon.gov/oha/amh/Pages/civil-commitment.aspx

Can you treat him successfully? How long can you keep him? Would parents or relatives be willing to do such to a relative and drop that stigma on the person? Are the relatives sophisticated enough to comprehend such options? Can reasonable out patient treatment follow up?

What else is there to do?

Then, the reporting to NICS should be implemented in all states. It might not stop all from getting guns but it might stop some. If you don't like NICS on a constitutional basis - that's a different argument.

I've personally had a number of people committed and testified at hearings in attempts to keep them committed so I'm fairly familiar with the process. Those are Band-Aids, not permanent solutions by any means.

NICS checks are effective in preventing someone from making a purchase as part of a lawful transaction - it's a worthless measure otherwise and only impacts folks attempting to do things lawfully.

I’m not trying to be contentious so forgive me if it’s coming across that way. Part of my provocation for posing questions like this really comes from the “data” thread and the musings that invariably come about every time these things happen. The idea that I’m trying to elicit is simply this;

Personally, I don’t care if the threat comes from Dashuan Octavius (aka Little Mickey) Brown from the hood or Khalid Jihaddi A-Nami from the Middle-East ….. my response is going to be exactly the same and I could care less what’s motivating him to do the things he’s trying to do.

History has shown us that trying to kill all the mosquitos has little impact on controlling malaria. The only measures that work are prevention and treatment after the exposure. As it relates to our discussion, awareness and the effective use of a firearm are the things that work, should the attack be unavoidable.

Knowing all the details of the who, what, when, where, how and why questions is usually extraneous, and shouldn’t have a significant impact on your plans to deal with it. Your practical contingency plans and provisions – the stuff you can and will actually do - will either work when the time comes or they won’t.

[Drang]

Where I work, we have a lot of people shot every week, especially in the summer but if you were to turn on the news you would never hear about it. Why? Because its corner hood boy shooting at another corner hood boy and all of which has to do with street level drug "wars" or whatever.
Where I grew up, they simply recited the daily/weekly body count and reported particularly heinous murders. They called us "Murder City", even though (IIRC) Hotlanta and DeeCee actually had higher numbers, Detroit got the bad press. Always did; after all, this was the city that scared Al Capone into going back to Chicago and doing bidness through local middle men...

Nowadays, violent crimes between and on "solid citizens" are down low enough, and communications has gotten global enough, that everyone hears about events that 30 years ago would have been of local interest only.

[Drang]

Personally, I don’t care if the threat comes from Dashuan Octavius (aka Little Mickey) Brown from the hood or Khalid Jihaddi A-Nami from the Middle-East ….. my response is going to be exactly the same and I could care less what’s motivating him to do the things he’s trying to do.

Truth.
I'm all in favor of societal efforts to identify and eliminate (or reduce) the sources of societal ills, as long as said efforts don't have the side effect of reducing us all to poverty and/or living in a world so authoritarian that Kim Il Sung and his heirs would recoil from it.
I suspect that the proviso makes it unlikely, to say the least.

[45dotACP]

What happens in your city (and mine) are drastically different than the active shooter issue we are talking about, though both have similar issues, they drastically different from each other.

Where I work, we have a lot of people shot every week, especially in the summer but if you were to turn on the news you would never hear about it. Why? Because its corner hood boy shooting at another corner hood boy and all of which has to do with street level drug "wars" or whatever. They are, mostly, convicted criminals and felons or otherwise prohibited persons but yet they still get their hands on firearms, how can that be possible? It is the point I have argued often enough to be sick of bringing it up, we do not do a good enough job of using the laws on the books and charging these societal vampires enough so that they do serious time in prison. Instead they cut deals and eventually someone gets killed and the only person who is held responsible is the criminal (rightfully so) while there are others who should be brought into the limelight and made to answer why they gave deals or slaps on the wrist to these persons. I've been to several funerals for my coworkers who have been gunned down in the line of duty by those who have numerous violent felony arrests, two of which had prior gun arrests and got deals to get back out on the street. That needs to end, the DA's and lawyers who allow these types of things to occur should be prosecuted for misconduct.
Indeed. Do apologize for the drift....and freaking amen dude. A co-worker and friend of mine had to deal with a pediatric GSW meant for said child's father...a man with 7 firearms arrests. I'll let that sink in....6 times he should not have been allowed to own a gun, yet he was out on the street armed and "getting his life back together". The worst part? He didn't cooperate a damn lick with the police investigation.

Pisses me off. He ought to rot for the rest of his damn life.

Of the three major metropolitan area, you're less likely to get your ass locked away in Chicago for carrying an illegal gun so this guy and his like, who should be spending their lives in a cage, are instead out there shooting each other up....which wouldn't particularly bother me so much if there wasn't so much collateral damage in the form of kids, wives, grandparents etc....

Sorry, pissed of RN here...end of drift, I promise.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[voodoo_man]

Indeed. Do apologize for the drift....and freaking amen dude. A co-worker and friend of mine had to deal with a pediatric GSW meant for said child's father...a man with 7 firearms arrests. I'll let that sink in....6 times he should not have been allowed to own a gun, yet he was out on the street armed and "getting his life back together". The worst part? He didn't cooperate a damn lick with the police investigation.

Pisses me off. He ought to rot for the rest of his damn life.

Of the three major metropolitan area, you're less likely to get your ass locked away in Chicago for carrying an illegal gun so this guy and his like, who should be spending their lives in a cage, are instead out there shooting each other up....which wouldn't particularly bother me so much if there wasn't so much collateral damage in the form of kids, wives, grandparents etc....

Sorry, pissed of RN here...end of drift, I promise.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

I know all too well about these occurrences unfortunately, last summer I had a 4 year old die on the way to a ER after being shot in the chest, bullet meant for her dad who was holding her - who was out on bail and had a warrant for...you guessed it...gun possession and agg. assault with a pistol. There is only so much you can do in those instances and unfortunately the one who paid was the innocent child.

It made the news but only for a blip on the nightly "shootings in our area" segment of the news. That was a shitty funeral too, some of her own family didn't show up - but there was no outrage, no anger, nothing - just acceptance. Nothing changes if we don't do something about that situation, and we can as a society, we just choose not to because it doesn't affect us in our neighborhoods.

[GardoneVT]

.... just acceptance.

Exactly.

It's f'd up, but in those social circles a dead 4 year old is "just part of da game yo". To them its normal for kids to catch rounds over some BS feud.

[Carl.W]

sorry for those who lost

http://thehill.com/regulation/243520-administration-preps-new-gun-regulations


read this.

[BaiHu]

sorry for those who lost

http://thehill.com/regulation/243520-administration-preps-new-gun-regulations


read this.
That's from May 30th.

[BaiHu]

I know all too well about these occurrences unfortunately, last summer I had a 4 year old die on the way to a ER after being shot in the chest, bullet meant for her dad who was holding her - who was out on bail and had a warrant for...you guessed it...gun possession and agg. assault with a pistol. There is only so much you can do in those instances and unfortunately the one who paid was the innocent child.

It made the news but only for a blip on the nightly "shootings in our area" segment of the news. That was a shitty funeral too, some of her own family didn't show up - but there was no outrage, no anger, nothing - just acceptance. Nothing changes if we don't do something about that situation, and we can as a society, we just choose not to because it doesn't affect us in our neighborhoods.
Link please. I have some people to wake up.

[45dotACP]

Enjoy your blood pressure meds....you'll need them after this

http://abc7chicago.com/news/father-of-dead-7-year-old-amari-brown-promotes-drug-business-on-facebook/841576/

Link please. I have some people to wake up.


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[Joe in PNG]

In the past two centuries, with the rise of the mass media, desperate, sick little losers have realized they can achieve fame by killing people.
Some would tie it into some sort of nebulous political philosophy.
Up until the 1980's, they did so by bombing/shooting/stabbing celebrities and politicians. However, politicians and major celebrities are better protected these days, and minor celebrities don't really garner the same kind of attention.
But now, with mass shootings, losers can make the news around the world, with presidential speeches and Facebook memes. And of course the modern mass shooting model of "everyone huddle and hide" means more easy targets.

[Tom Duffy]

Chris Rock got the essentials of gun control right. "If you still live with your mother, you can't own a gun."

[StraitR]

Wow, this one is rich... http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/opinions/robbins-oregon-shooting/index.html

My favorite quote, "What is there to stop someone from killing you with a gun at a church or a movie theater?" Oh, where do I begin?

By the way, the Chris Mintz GoFundMe is over $700,000. It's nice to see the outpouring of support and appreciation.

I don't see anyone reporting that. I wonder if the author above managed to take a few minutes and donate? Nah, too busy pushing an agenda by exploiting the deaths, too busy telling others not to clean the blood up, but rather "Take pictures and roll video of the overturned desks, broken glass, stained floors, bullet-pocked walls and share the horror with the world."

PFuking shameless piece of journalism. I'm inviting this bitch to PFestivus 2016.

[Malamute]

This was interesting. Its from a couple years ago. Discusses NOT giving them a huge coverage, NOT putting their face all over the media, and how those things seem to encourage more such situations. Wish there was a bit longer and more substantive discussion of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

[rob_s]

just acceptance. .

100 years ago people had lots of kids because it was still unlikely that all of their children would reach adulthood. And of those kids they weren't really considered viable until they were at least ten. Kind of a "don't get too attached, let's see if he makes it awhile" kind of mentality. Childhood mortality was a common thing, and so a child dying wasn't out of the ordinary, and therefore wasn't the tragedy that is today in civilized society. It is pretty evident that there is an un-civilized "shadow" society within the great, good, American society where this is still the norm, but the age has slid north to probably at least late teens. You're just not really a "person" until you make it that far.

To the larger point about "gun control", this is what is missed (among other things) by the antis. They live in their two story ranch-type-style houses, drive their volvos to work, and haven't the first inkling or concern as to what's happening outside their daily routine. But they see a shooting like this one in Oregon, a statistical anomaly, and they demand that something be done, the easiest of which is "if people don't have guns, they can't shoot other people.

They might as well wish that their kids ride rainbow unicorns to school.

[Cincinnatus]

100 years ago people had lots of kids because it was still unlikely that all of their children would reach adulthood. And of those kids they weren't really considered viable until they were at least ten. Kind of a "don't get too attached, let's see if he makes it awhile" kind of mentality. Childhood mortality was a common thing, and so a child dying wasn't out of the ordinary, and therefore wasn't the tragedy that is today in civilized society. It is pretty evident that there is an un-civilized "shadow" society within the great, good, American society where this is still the norm, but the age has slid north to probably at least late teens. You're just not really a "person" until you make it that far.

To the larger point about "gun control", this is what is missed (among other things) by the antis. They live in their two story ranch-type-style houses, drive their volvos to work, and haven't the first inkling or concern as to what's happening outside their daily routine. But they see a shooting like this one in Oregon, a statistical anomaly, and they demand that something be done, the easiest of which is "if people don't have guns, they can't shoot other people.

They might as well wish that their kids ride rainbow unicorns to school.

Your overall point is fine, but the idea that people treated their children like the new guy in the platoon in a WWII Marine outfit in the Pacific, trying not to get too attached, has limited validity. Yes, childhood death was very high. Out of a family with ten children some, even most, had a much higher probability of dying, epecially in infancy, than today.
But people still loved their kids and were devastated by their deaths. Look at Mary Todd and Abraham Lincoln and the death of their son. She went batshit crazy over that, and he turned to frequent melancholy. Look at Jefferson Davis and the deaths of two of his sons. Look at George Washington and the deaths of his stepchildren.
Death was far more common in past centuries, but it still had every bit as much sting, and people still often loved their children.

This is not to derail the thread. Your point about antis and their attitudes is right on.

[RJ]

I Posted this on another forum, be interested in the thoughts here:


"Ok all, we are here at this morning's emergency meeting to revise / update our School's protocol on how to deal with an Active Shooter on campus.

Specifially, what changes do we need to put in place NOW to reduce the risk of death or grave bodily harm to our faculty, staff, and students in our care?

Your thoughts?


Physical Barriers

We need to immediately put in place easily installed physical barriers (locks, bars, etc.) in order to quickly encapsulate and isolate classrooms and lecture halls, to reduce the ability of the active shooter to move within our facility.

Every room in the facility needs to be evaluated as a potential "refuge" for shelter to provide concealment against an active shooter.

Enhanced Immediate Trauma Care

We need to implement training and put in place first aid kits for Gun Shot Wound trauma, and make it a part of the standard classroom make up. Training would be aligned to DoD's Tactical Combat Casualty Care (TCCC). Multiple Individual First Aid Kits (IFAK), including tourniquets like the SOF-TT and occlusive agents (Celox), should be immediately accessible to all classrooms.

TCCC training should be provided free to all staff, with staff being provided the opportunity to carry IFAK and act as first responders.

Voluntary Concealed Carry

Teachers and staff should have free training and the opportunity to responsibly concealed carry in the classroom. Quality firearms aligned to local LEO duty / carry (e.g. 9mm / JHP) should be recommended, but we should allow any effective firearm that can be concealed (e.g. S&W J frame) by smaller stature staff.

[TGS]

Rich,

You mean to face reality, gain some life skills, take responsibility and create a hard target?

Good god men, he's gone mad!

[41magfan]

A School system in one of the western states does it like it should be done.

They contract with a training firm to come in on an annual basis and conduct relevant training (software and hardware) onsite and the District picks up the tab. The training also satisfies the State’s requirements for a concealed carry permit so the participants get this requirement satisfied at no personal expense.

This method insures the training is comprehensive, consistent with the mission and it has the added benefit of training in the environment they will actually operate. The result is that everyone will be on the same page in regards to policy, procedures (tactics) and the applicable laws relating to the use of their guns.

[StraitR]

This isn't what the typical anti, while sitting behind their gated community or doorman to their loft complex wants to hear, but the underlying cause of gun violence in our country is not the number, or availability of guns, but rather the fundamental lack of parenting, guidance, and accountability for our kids.

My rant...

I'm SO sure the father of this shooter was "as shocked as anyone", like he claims. The truth will come out, and there will have been signs, just like all the others. Granted, the kid was of age, but I don't believe that means our responsibility as parents ceases. There will have been many failures along the way, and probably an equal amount of opportunities to intervene. We brought them into this world, they're forever our responsibility and a reflection on us and our dedication to them. Parental accountability died along time ago when political correctness took precedence over better judgement. More and more family issues are repressed and hidden through prideful shame because people are more concerned with being ostracized by others than they are the wellbeing of the same.

You know damn well if your kid has problems, so speak up, get them help, and don't let them buy guns freely. Come on! Common sense anyone? I don't know exactly what that looks like, but do what you have to do. Baker Act them, talk to your local police, priest, hospital, whatever, but don't try to wish it away and convince yourself that the crazy could never manifest into horrific acts of violence against others. This is where I feel some blame must fall on the parents or guardians.

For the Anti's that believe this type of act can be stopped or stifled via legislation, how about we pass a federal statute that holds parent(s), legal guardians, friends, relatives, professionals responsible for gross negligence when they fail to do their due diligence to prevent things like this. Same goes for all that thug life crap. Gun violence via typical criminal element, intercity or otherwise, is a separate issue and a different kind of parental failure, but a failure nonetheless.

I feel the same about people standing in front of a crowd preaching about killing cops. If you actually inspire and convince someone it's a good idea, part of that blame and punishment should fall on you if they go out and kill a cop. Yeah, 1st Amendment, I get it, but it doesn't cover destructive behavior like publishing or sharing child pornography, why should it cover instigating acts of violence for political reasons? Isn't that terrorism by definition?

How about we try some good ole fashioned accountability first.

/Rant. Admittedly, there's a few holes in that line of thinking, but I'm over all the finger-pointing when it comes to gun violence, let alone being the "asshole" who won't give up his guns to save the kids and puppies. It pisses me off just as much, if not more as a responsible parent and gun owner, as it does the libtards who think my safe full of guns is the problem.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Is there any reliable description of how everything happened yet? The news had a story about person in a wheel chair having to get out of her chair and then back in. Then she was shot. When did Minz charge him?

It seems folks just stood there?

[Alpha Sierra]

It seems folks just stood there?
I just about guarantee that 99% of them did just that

[GardoneVT]

<snip>.

The issue isn't accountability, as there's plenty of public sentiment for THAT no matter what ones political attiude is.

The question is direction. Some blame the people for evil; others have decided the tool is what's to blame.

You can't ban human evil with a law. You can ban a tool easily enough.

[11B10]

posted an article about this to get my thoughts down...

http://www.vdmsr.com/2015/10/oregon-umpqua-community-college-shooting.html

Nothing that hasn't been already said, just putting out there for future reference.

THIS!

[HCM]

http://m.military.com/daily-news/2015/10/04/guardsman-train-hero-avoided-oregon-rampage-tv-show-rehearsa.html?ESRC=todayinmil.sm

Train Hero Guardsman avoided UCC shooting due to a rehearsal for his upcoming appearance on Dancing With The Stars..,,

[LittleLebowski]

Brother of Oregon Shooting Survivor Wants Obama to ‘Quit Running the Gun Agenda’ (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/brother-of-oregon-shooting-survivor-wants-obama-to-quit-running-the-gun-agenda/)



The brother of one of the Oregon shooting survivors said on CNN tonight that President Obama should stop his “gun agenda” and focus on mental health.

Jessy Atkinson is the brother of Cheyenne Fitzgerald, a teenager who was badly injured in the shooting and is currently recovering at the hospital. A GoFundMe page has already raised over $10,000.

Atkinson and his mother Bonnie Schaan talked tonight to Anderson Cooper, who asked them what they would say to Obama if they get a chance to speak to him when he comes.

Atkinson said, “Look where the problem really lies, and quit running the agenda––quit running the gun agenda. It’s not the problem. It’s mental health in America.”

Schaan simply said “our children should be able to protect themselves somehow.” When she was interviewed a few days ago, she said her daughter should have had a gun to be able to protect herself.

Cheyenne's GoFundMe page: https://www.gofundme.com/vh5hy89w

[JM Campbell]

He'll be written off and ignored as a gun crazy and obviously in need of control for his safety.


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[LittleLebowski]

He'll be written off and ignored as a gun crazy and obviously in need of control for his safety.


The mainstream media won't touch this.

[ralph]

Brother of Oregon Shooting Survivor Wants Obama to ‘Quit Running the Gun Agenda’ (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/brother-of-oregon-shooting-survivor-wants-obama-to-quit-running-the-gun-agenda/)




Cheyenne's GoFundMe page: https://www.gofundme.com/vh5hy89w

Finally, it sounds like people are starting to wake up, and understand that "gun-free zone" signs don't do shit.. And finally, they're also starting to realize they need to protect themselves, themselves, the collage ain't gonna do it, beyond locking classroom doors.. I swear, if I were president for a day, I'd cut off funding to all collages that didn't allow students, faculty, to carry, and fire every known socialist professor, while I'm at it..

[StraitR]

The issue isn't accountability, as there's plenty of public sentiment for THAT no matter what ones political attiude is.

The question is direction. Some blame the people for evil; others have decided the tool is what's to blame.

You can't ban human evil with a law. You can ban a tool easily enough.

I understand, but it's not meaningless sentiment that I'm referencing, but rather legal accountability. Motivate individuals that know of these underlying problems to act instead of passively enable them.

By forcing capitulators to have some skin in the game, maybe they would take a vested interest in doing what's right instead of what's most convenient. Or, at the very least, do the bare minimum to keep themselves out of prison, which would inevitably expose some of these crazies before they're able to purchase guns and patiently plan their attacks.

Like I said, this isn't a gun problem, it's a people problem, both the people that physically commit the crimes and the people that look the other way from the tell-tail signs because it's easier.

Example, as I previously stated, it would come out that there were signs, and it did. Mom and Dad knew of their sons issues but obviously did little to prevent him from owning firearms (13?). Wasn't Dad surprised that this happened? Quote, "as surprised as anyone". What's worse, now Dad blames gun laws and says "guns are the killers". Accountability, there is none. Lock them both up and see how parents become more proactive.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/06/us/oregon-umpqua-shooting-mother-online-posts/index.html

[GardoneVT]

Example, as I previously stated, it would come out that there were signs, and it did. Mom and Dad knew of their sons issues but obviously did little to prevent him from owning firearms (13?). Wasn't Dad surprised that this happened? Quote, "as surprised as anyone". What's worse, now Dad blames gun laws and says "guns are the killers". Accountability, there is none. Lock them both up and see how parents become more proactive.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/06/us/oregon-umpqua-shooting-mother-online-posts/index.html
Except there are no empirical signs of incipient villainy.

That's a fancy way of saying making the parents " accountable" wont mean squat, besides incentivizing parents to discourage their kids from any interaction with firearms.Best way to ensure your kids don't end up blowing a fuse and going homicidal is to raise them as anti as possible.

I'm reminded of a case in Germany where a high school student stole his father's Beretta and shot up his school. Naturally the laws in Germany are significantly more restrictive , and as such the firearm was unloaded and locked up according to law. Kid didn't give a crap when he broke into his dad's safe, and neither did the German state when said dad got sent to prison for "negligence".

If that's your idea of accountability, we may as well ban guns period and have done with it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Stand there and die:

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/7/9469693/ben-carson-oregon-shooter

Since you might get shot on the charge - just stand there. The better solution is gun control.

Saw a DB on CNN say the law enforcement recommends that you just stand in a line and die.

[RoyGBiv]

Stand there and die:

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/7/9469693/ben-carson-oregon-shooter

Since you might get shot on the charge - just stand there. The better solution is gun control.

Saw a DB on CNN say the law enforcement recommends that you just stand in a line and die.
It'll take at least a day for me to forgive myself for clicking on that link. Vox. Note to self... Just say no.

[Gadfly]

Cant find it in the thread or on line... Anyone have a list of the guns the nut used?

The photo they keep showing of him on line appears to have him holding a wood stocked 10/22.
The only thing I can find is 5 pistols, 1 rifle at the college, and 1 shotgun, 4 rifles and 2 handguns at the apartment. The guns at the apartment are irrelevant since they were legally purchased and not used in a crime, so I am not sure why they were seized...

I can only assume if he used an AK or AR it would be front page news by now.

[ssb]

Cant find it in the thread or on line... Anyone have a list of the guns the nut used?

The photo they keep showing of him on line appears to have him holding a wood stocked 10/22.
The only thing I can find is 5 pistols, 1 rifle at the college, and 1 shotgun, 4 rifles and 2 handguns at the apartment. The guns at the apartment are irrelevant since they were legally purchased and not used in a crime, so I am not sure why they were seized...

I can only assume if he used an AK or AR it would be front page news by now.

I'd seen that he had a AR15 and an assortment of handguns, with the AR-15 and several of the handguns found in a separate location from the shootings. Asshole appears to have had some AR-500 plates in a carrier as well. I want to say the ATF press conference is where I heard that information, but I'm not 100% sure. Some victim reports (http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-umpqua-community-college-shooting/) state he used a handgun in the shootings ("While reloading his handgun, the man ordered the students to stand up and asked whether they were Christians, Boylan told her family.").

I agree with your bolded.

[Gadfly]

ATF spokes person (an ASAC, which is fairly high up) said shooter was wearing a "FLANK jacket". I thought she misspoke, but she went on to say FLANK jacket 3-4 more times. Then the press release said he had steel plates in a carrier, which is not a flack vest... It is as annoying as when they report that an SKS is an AK. Someone in the ATF should know their terminology. Of course, some folks in the ATF are promoted for reasons other than their knowledge of firearms and the law... Just like in all agencies.

[BaiHu]

Flank steak that's been good well done might slow some burrits down. Great, beef prices will go up now [emoji53]

[Dagga Boy]

ATF spokes person (an ASAC, which is fairly high up) said shooter was wearing a "FLANK jacket". I thought she misspoke, but she went on to say FLANK jacket 3-4 more times. Then the press release said he had steel plates in a carrier, which is not a flack vest... It is as annoying as when they report that an SKS is an AK. Someone in the ATF should know their terminology. Of course, some folks in the ATF are promoted for reasons other than their knowledge of firearms and the law... Just like in all agencies.

I can guarantee some folks at ATF who she climbed up the later over based on her great knowledge are laughing right now along with everyone else. Kind of like the Commander in Chief who has no idea what a Corpsman is and said Corpse Man over and over.

[HCM]

http://m.military.com/daily-news/2015/10/04/guardsman-train-hero-avoided-oregon-rampage-tv-show-rehearsa.html?ESRC=todayinmil.sm

Train Hero Guardsman avoided UCC shooting due to a rehearsal for his upcoming appearance on Dancing With The Stars..,,

I am very curious to know the backstory on this: French train attack hero, Airman Spencer Stone in stable condition after being stabbed four times in Sacramento California.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/08/spencer-stone-french-train-hero-in-reportedly-in-stable-condition-after/

[JHC]

I am very curious to know the backstory on this: French train attack hero, Airman Spencer Stone in stable condition after being stabbed four times in Sacramento California.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/08/spencer-stone-french-train-hero-in-reportedly-in-stable-condition-after/

He's got to be getting tired of stitches. I hope he can heal up ok. Story on F.N. says critical.

[RoyGBiv]

I am very curious to know the backstory on this: French train attack hero, Airman Spencer Stone in stable condition after being stabbed four times in Sacramento California.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/08/spencer-stone-french-train-hero-in-reportedly-in-stable-condition-after/
Bar fight... from what I've read.

[Peally]

Incredibly misleading headlines, as per usual. Fox is just as crappy as CNN and MSNBC at this point.