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BehindBlueI's
09-30-2015, 07:10 PM
This is an open question for non-LEOs primarily, but LEOs as well

I'm changing the way I keep statistics. For my own education and the education of others I've tried to keep good statistics on things like distance, shots fired, caliber, etc. I have decided that my stats are skewed because they include criminal on criminal gun fights. While there are lessons to be learned there, they are not what most armed citizens are facing. You're unlikely to be shot in the head while sitting in your car slinging dope to the guy in the back seat, nor are you likely to be targeted by a drive by. As such, round count and distances for these events are largely irrelevant to you, as are LE vs criminal statistics.

From now on, I'm separating out the citizen vs criminal into his own category. I plan to keep track of sex of suspect and victim, shots fired by either side (including 0 if display of the firearm ended the encounter successfully or if the person was disabled prior to firing a shot), if the suspect was armed, distance when the firearm entered play, and if the citizen won the encounter or not (defined as bad guy fled, bad guy disabled, bad guy killed). I think I'm going to stop collecting caliber because ammo differences, shot placement differences, etc. create so many variables I just don't think it's worth collecting any longer. Let the ballistic and ammo guys do that.

So, if any, what other information would you like to see collected, and what benefit do you think it adds?

For example, incident tonight:
Home invasion
Male suspect
Female victim
Suspect use of force: unarmed
Victim use of force: display of firearm
Distance: contact
Shots fired: 0
Outcome: Success, suspect fled.

MVS
09-30-2015, 07:27 PM
Lighting conditions? Of course by that I don't just mean day or night, but actual lighting conditions. ex. Night time, well lit store parking lot.

BehindBlueI's
09-30-2015, 07:40 PM
Lighting conditions? Of course by that I don't just mean day or night, but actual lighting conditions. ex. Night time, well lit store parking lot.

I can do that. What benefit do you think it adds?

I forgot to mention I also intend to track rounds fired until issue is resolved vs total rounds fired. For example, attempt carjacking, victim fired one shot and suspect fled, victim fired 2 more shots at fleeing suspect. 1 to resolve (flight) 3 total fired. I understand this will sometimes not be a bright line and if it becomes cumbersome I may have to rethink it.

orionz06
09-30-2015, 07:44 PM
High on my interest list would be how far into the interaction did they get before realizing a crime was about to happen. This is more applicable to video I think and hard to quantify.

MVS
09-30-2015, 07:46 PM
I can do that. What benefit do you think it adds?

..

The official line on gunfights is that X% (usually 80) occur in low light. For a number of reasons, many noted trainers think this is highly inaccurate. Tom Givens for example has said that of the 63 wins of his students that he knows about, none of them used or needed a flashlight, or even night sights. Once again are we looking to hardware solutions for non existent problems, or is Tom's data just different than yours might be in Indy, or Chucks might be in Topeka.

BehindBlueI's
09-30-2015, 07:51 PM
The official line on gunfights is that X% (usually 80) occur in low light. For a number of reasons, many noted trainers think this is highly inaccurate. Tom Givens for example has said that of the 63 wins of his students that he knows about, none of them used or needed a flashlight, or even night sights. Once again are we looking to hardware solutions for non existent problems, or is Tom's data just different than yours might be in Indy, or Chucks might be in Topeka.

That's what I figured. I'd counter that knowing the lighting conditions does not tell you if a flashlight would have been helpful or if night sights made any difference. Anecdotally from my case files, distances are too close for lighting conditions to matter to the point a flashlight matters. You can't rob someone you can't see, you can't attempt to abduct someone you can't see, it only makes sense both parties can see each other reasonably well. Night sights, I'm not sure. Again, distances are usually so close that sights may not make much difference and I don't know how I can quantify it.


High on my interest list would be how far into the interaction did they get before realizing a crime was about to happen. This is more applicable to video I think and hard to quantify.

I agree that'd be good info, but I have no idea how to quantify it. Suggestions?

LSP552
09-30-2015, 08:37 PM
Great idea, thanks BBI. Looking forward to the data.

pablo
09-30-2015, 08:56 PM
One thing I wish I had kept better track of are the types of guns and ammunition used in murders and whether they were DRT or made it to a hospital. The closest thing I've seen to a "tactical" long gun in a legitimate self defense shooting was a police trade in Stevens 77e with cheapo Winchester 000 buckshot. There's seems to be a pretty big disconnect what people think they "need" and what has turned out to be good enough.

BehindBlueI's
09-30-2015, 09:11 PM
One thing I wish I had kept better track of are the types of guns and ammunition used in murders and whether they were DRT or made it to a hospital. The closest thing I've seen to a "tactical" long gun in a legitimate self defense shooting was a police trade in Stevens 77e with cheapo Winchester 000 buckshot. There's seems to be a pretty big disconnect what people think they "need" and what has turned out to be good enough.

I've done this, but came to the conclusion it was mostly useless data. I couldn't figure out a good way to control for the variables. Shot placement, angle of impact, etc. Plus, how many times do we know what type of ammo was used in shootings? Through and through or just fragments, no casings, etc. What you mostly learn is what trash ball ammo does.

One thing that really surprised me when I first started doing this is how many people could have won with a starter pistol. They didn't hit anyone, but the noise and flash convinced the other guy he had somewhere to be besides there. I know "you can't miss fast enough to win"...but you can if the other guy vacates the playing field due to the miss. (I'm, of course, not recommending missing or starter pistols as a solid choice in self defense, just pointing out that it works with surprising frequency...but when it fails it fails hard.)

GNRPowdeR
10-01-2015, 04:31 AM
A few things that would interest me are somewhat profiling... Race, if the victim knew the attacker, and environment (neighborhood / assisted housing / gas & go in a rough neighborhood)

voodoo_man
10-01-2015, 06:30 AM
High on my interest list would be how far into the interaction did they get before realizing a crime was about to happen. This is more applicable to video I think and hard to quantify.

A situational awareness statistic?

I'd wager it is a pretty long time in most cases...

JHC
10-01-2015, 06:55 AM
Maybe a characterization of the locale/establishment where it occurred.

For example
- home
-work
-restaurant/bar
- parking lot
-retail gas station/convenience store
-retail other
- hair salon (just kidding on that one)

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 07:23 AM
Maybe a characterization of the locale/establishment where it occurred.

For example
- home
-work
-restaurant/bar
- parking lot
-retail gas station/convenience store
-retail other
- hair salon (just kidding on that one)

Ok, I can add that.

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 07:30 AM
A few things that would interest me are somewhat profiling... Race, if the victim knew the attacker, and environment (neighborhood / assisted housing / gas & go in a rough neighborhood)

Anecdotally and per official stats, you're most likely to be victimized by someone of your own race and more likely to be victimized by someone you know (especially women) but it depends on the type of crime and the situation. Profiling is best done by body language, proxemics, etc. than by race or location. As such, I've specifically left race out of the equation.

RJ
10-01-2015, 08:02 AM
Maybe a characterization of the locale/establishment where it occurred.

For example
- home
-work
-restaurant/bar
- parking lot
-retail gas station/convenience store
-retail other
- hair salon (just kidding on that one)

I would second the above, as well as maybe add an element of time of day/night?

As someone new to guns, it might be of benefit in managing risk to know which is more likely, statistically. For instance, I don't carry every day, but leave a gun on the nightstand. But I don't know, does that do me any good at all if an attack is more likely to occur in the home during daylight hours than 2am.

Great thread idea and much appreciated BBL.

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 08:40 AM
I'm also going to add in other defenses. Attacks repelled with knives, unarmed, etc.

Reload Y/N, although I've yet to see a reload matter, some folks seem to think it's real important so I'll track that, too.

Time to resolve would be interesting, but will skew heavily toward business robberies, as without video how will you know?

voodoo_man
10-01-2015, 08:57 AM
Also prior training if any...maybe in categories, none 0, leo 1, ccw class 2, etc...

JHC
10-01-2015, 09:25 AM
I would second the above, as well as maybe add an element of time of day/night?

As someone new to guns, it might be of benefit in managing risk to know which is more likely, statistically. For instance, I don't carry every day, but leave a gun on the nightstand. But I don't know, does that do me any good at all if an attack is more likely to occur in the home during daylight hours than 2am.

Great thread idea and much appreciated BBL.

Its definitely not an optimal situation to have one's defensive gun a significant distance away, day or night. The one person I know who suffered a home invasion; it occurred at dinner time as the family sat at the table. Door to the outside kicked in and they were right there in the dining room with them. Defensive guns, a pistol and AK were upstairs in the master bedroom. May as well been in the attic.

Kingsfield
10-01-2015, 09:44 AM
This information would be of great interest. I would like to make a recommendation concerning the sample selection.

It would be very helpful to capture, and to report, how individual events are identified. For example, one issue of interest is the ratio of defensive firearms uses which do not result in a firearm discharge, to those that do. So, if, for example, whatever observations/events you report are more likely not to include events where the firearm is not discharged, the relevant comparative statistics would not be representative. By being able to describe what factors result in an event being in your sample, your data are more likely to yield useful insights.

nalesq
10-01-2015, 10:43 AM
Would it be possible to include some post shooting data? E.g., how long the citizen had to wait before units arrived, whether the citizen was initially charged with anything, how long it took to resolve any legal issues, etc.

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 11:16 AM
Would it be possible to include some post shooting data? E.g., how long the citizen had to wait before units arrived, whether the citizen was initially charged with anything, how long it took to resolve any legal issues, etc.

If charged, yes.

How long until arrival, probably not going to track. Response times vary widely based on location, so what happens here is only relevant to people here and I want this to be as universal as possible.

Legal issues, no. I'm not always privy to civil suits, it's irrelevant for what I'm trying to do, and it's more time and effort than I'm willing to invest.


This information would be of great interest. I would like to make a recommendation concerning the sample selection.

It would be very helpful to capture, and to report, how individual events are identified. For example, one issue of interest is the ratio of defensive firearms uses which do not result in a firearm discharge, to those that do. So, if, for example, whatever observations/events you report are more likely not to include events where the firearm is not discharged, the relevant comparative statistics would not be representative. By being able to describe what factors result in an event being in your sample, your data are more likely to yield useful insights.

That's already included, "home invasion" or "street robbery" or whatever. The results are going to be skewed, and who knows by how much, on the likelihood of reporting the incident as well. If you display a gun to stop someone from assaulting you and suffer no harm and no loss, you are less likely to report that than if someone breaks into your home and you display a gun and they flee or if someone attempts to rob your business and you display a gun and they flee. I can't know what isn't reported, so the information will necessarily be incorrect outside of the context of "reported to police and referred to detective". Also keep in mind I work for a large department and misdemeanor cases and minor felonies do not come through my office. While I have a contact in Sex Crimes who will help me with data there, I do not have District Detectives (who work simple batteries, burglaries, thefts, etc.) and this will also decrease the number of guns displayed but not fired.

No one has a perfect data set. Including LEO, including off duty, skews data. Including criminal on criminal (the majority of murders) skews data. Etc. etc. We have to understand the limits of the data and make it as applicable to the target audience as possible. That's what I'm trying to do. Civilians who were the target of a serious, potentially life altering, crime, and fought back is what I'm trying to capture.

JM Campbell
10-01-2015, 11:58 AM
BB, how do I get on the mailing list for your reports? Would love to read up on them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 12:26 PM
BB, how do I get on the mailing list for your reports? Would love to read up on them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

I'll probably just post them here. Say an update every 100 incidents?

Do you guys want bad shoots (legally speaking) included? Something like this:


Police believe a man went into a gas station at that intersection and left his car running. They believe the car was stolen and the man shot the car thief, who then crashed into a nearby pole. Police say the person was shot in the back and was transported to Eskanazi. Their condition is unknown at this time.

I'm thinking to keep it separate, but would entertain arguments for including them. To me it's not a self defense shooting, it's not defending yourself against a life altering crime. Legally, not a good shoot although the prosecutor may not file depending on the situation.

Wondering Beard
10-01-2015, 01:06 PM
I'm thinking to keep it separate, but would entertain arguments for including them. To me it's not a self defense shooting, it's not defending yourself against a life altering crime. Legally, not a good shoot although the prosecutor may not file depending on the situation.

Keep it separate but included. It would be interesting to know how many shootings that may have been for self defense originally changed along the way to something else (the classic 'stopped an assault then pursued the bad guy and shot him') or defense of property, or of livelihood (something I consider somewhere in between defense of life and defense of property). Those types of numbers could be telling about what people (not LEO or lawyers) think is actually a self defense shooting.

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 01:51 PM
Keep it separate but included. It would be interesting to know how many shootings that may have been for self defense originally changed along the way to something else (the classic 'stopped an assault then pursued the bad guy and shot him') or defense of property, or of livelihood (something I consider somewhere in between defense of life and defense of property). Those types of numbers could be telling about what people (not LEO or lawyers) think is actually a self defense shooting.

I'll consider it.

However I'll also say that what people do in the heat of the moment does not equate to what they think is a good shoot. I've had people shoot at fleeing suspects and immediately regret doing so, and admit as much. They shot because they were excited or angry, not because they thought it was going to be a good shoot. There's also a psychological trigger when people flee, once someone is 'faceless' they are easier to shoot, plus triggering predator/prey responses. Grossman documented that very well, and I see it play out in street crime just as much as he saw it on the battlefield.

ubervic
10-01-2015, 02:11 PM
Would it be possible to include some post shooting data? E.g., how long the citizen had to wait before units arrived, whether the citizen was initially charged with anything, how long it took to resolve any legal issues, etc.

Excellent. I'd love to study data on the multi-layered aftermath of shooting incidents.

Edit---I see now that this won't happen.

Kukuforguns
10-01-2015, 02:51 PM
I +1 voodoo's request for victim training. I also am interested in age of the actors and how the victim and suspect carried their respective weapons. Information for both positive and negative outcomes would be great.

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 03:30 PM
I +1 voodoo's request for victim training. I also am interested in age of the actors and how the victim and suspect carried their respective weapons. Information for both positive and negative outcomes would be great.

How guns were carried for suspects would involve a lot of guess work. Many people never see the draw, they just realize someone has a gun on them. I can tell you from experience that IWB or pocket carry, both with no holster, is the predominant carry method for offenders caught with a gun, though.

orionz06
10-01-2015, 03:32 PM
I agree that'd be good info, but I have no idea how to quantify it. Suggestions?


A situational awareness statistic?

I'd wager it is a pretty long time in most cases...

At a high level we can at least determine if it was sudden or if there was a slow build. Either way does evidence suggest that it could have been seen sooner?

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 03:52 PM
At a high level we can at least determine if it was sudden or if there was a slow build. Either way does evidence suggest that it could have been seen sooner?

Well, here's my issue. If there were cues the victim missed because they had their thumb up their ass and their mind in Arkansas, does that count as a build up or a sudden encounter, and unless there's video, how will I know? The victim can't tell me about cues they missed, after all.

I can pretty well address the underlying questions, though. Street robberies tend to have a brief preamble. The suspect wants some cover as to why he's approaching you. Sex crimes, ditto. Commercial robberies are more likely to be a 'right now' affair, and more likely to have weapons drawn during the approach.

Kukuforguns
10-01-2015, 04:24 PM
How guns were carried for suspects would involve a lot of guess work. Many people never see the draw, they just realize someone has a gun on them. I can tell you from experience that IWB or pocket carry, both with no holster, is the predominant carry method for offenders caught with a gun, though.
Since you're doing the work, I have no problem creating a wish list. If you don't have reliable data for a field, then leave it blank.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

JustOneGun
10-01-2015, 04:59 PM
When talking close distances I like to see a number. If the number was 1 to 2 yards I always wonder what went on. Because without knowing the dynamics there is no way to make a determination of tactics used. Was it a wrestling match, or a move to maintain distance? These things if known would be helpful.
Distance gets messed up often because it can change and because we use words instead of a true distance. What contact is to you might not be the same for me. When we make decisions based off of distance stats, sadly we often make them without a true understanding of what was happening and thus can't make a valid decision on a tactic based on the data.

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 05:23 PM
When talking close distances I like to see a number. If the number was 1 to 2 yards I always wonder what went on. Because without knowing the dynamics there is no way to make a determination of tactics used. Was it a wrestling match, or a move to maintain distance? These things if known would be helpful.
Distance gets messed up often because it can change and because we use words instead of a true distance. What contact is to you might not be the same for me. When we make decisions based off of distance stats, sadly we often make them without a true understanding of what was happening and thus can't make a valid decision on a tactic based on the data.

Well, for me, contact means actual physical contact. Some cases include the following outcomes:

1) victim pushed down, drew weapon, suspect fled
2) victim entangled with 2 suspects, drew but carried on empty chamber, shot and killed by suspect
3) victim struck suspect with golf club as suspect pointed gun at family member, disabling suspect
4) suspect pistol whipped suspect, who then overpowered suspect and beat him unconscious barehanded.
5) victim grabbed suspect while he was reaching into register, disarmed him (breaking pistol) and maintained a headlock until suspect broke free and fled

So how would you like to see these categorized for easy sorting and statistics?

JustOneGun
10-01-2015, 07:00 PM
Well, for me, contact means actual physical contact. Some cases include the following outcomes:

1) victim pushed down, drew weapon, suspect fled
2) victim entangled with 2 suspects, drew but carried on empty chamber, shot and killed by suspect
3) victim struck suspect with golf club as suspect pointed gun at family member, disabling suspect
4) suspect pistol whipped suspect, who then overpowered suspect and beat him unconscious barehanded.
5) victim grabbed suspect while he was reaching into register, disarmed him (breaking pistol) and maintained a headlock until suspect broke free and fled

So how would you like to see these categorized for easy sorting and statistics?



I wouldn't. That's the whole point. The problem with police and criminal stats, as you point out is that they don't apply. The reason is usually right there at the "contact" distance. I would want to see the explanation of how they came to contact each other. The reason is because for civilians it is very rare to have a true contact shooting that wasn't caused by something the victim did. Often in the civilian shooting world we see a lot of people taking classes to deal with what? Usually example 2 by using a set of unrelated police stats.
And the reason we need to take these classes? "Contact distance shooting is a large percentage of what civilians encounter" I think those stats are not correct. I think the vast majority of civilian shootings are robberies in public places, home invasions and domestic violence. They are skewed stats that drive contact distance training for civilians to look like police contact distance training. If you take the time to keep stats to exclude criminals and police shootings but you don't flesh out all the contact distance incidents then IMHO it will be a waste of time. The contact distance will be large and nothing will change.

Knowing when to shoot according to the law and knowing how to move while drawing in 1.5 second even if it is one or two steps would make the vast majority of civilian shootings outside of contact distance and shot from full extension. If we could flesh out the stats on contact distance it would show just what Tom Givens has found. A good quick draw while moving and bringing the gun to eye level will allow for almost all civilian gunfights to be won.

If we take the time to do this, the civilian contact distance shooting classes will be simple and a lot more appropriate.

BehindBlueI's
10-01-2015, 07:21 PM
I wouldn't. That's the whole point. The problem with police and criminal stats, as you point out is that they don't apply. The reason is usually right there at the "contact" distance. I would want to see the explanation of how they came to contact each other. The reason is because for civilians it is very rare to have a true contact shooting that wasn't caused by something the victim did. Often in the civilian shooting world we see a lot of people taking classes to deal with what? Usually example 2 by using a set of unrelated police stats.
And the reason we need to take these classes? "Contact distance shooting is a large percentage of what civilians encounter" I think those stats are not correct. I think the vast majority of civilian shootings are robberies in public places, home invasions and domestic violence. They are skewed stats that drive contact distance training for civilians to look like police contact distance training. If you take the time to keep stats to exclude criminals and police shootings but you don't flesh out all the contact distance incidents then IMHO it will be a waste of time. The contact distance will be large and nothing will change.

Knowing when to shoot according to the law and knowing how to move while drawing in 1.5 second even if it is one or two steps would make the vast majority of civilian shootings outside of contact distance and shot from full extension. If we could flesh out the stats on contact distance it would show just what Tom Givens has found. A good quick draw while moving and bringing the gun to eye level will allow for almost all civilian gunfights to be won.

If we take the time to do this, the civilian contact distance shooting classes will be simple and a lot more appropriate.

I am not using domestics for the same reason I am not using criminal on criminal, targeted crime looks different than random crime.

Most of the events to this point that involve the victim using a firearm did not get to contact. The blunt object, knife, and unarmed defenses do. #2 is a rarity, and once the stats are fleshed out it will show as much. The next "contact" that involved a firearm was by the victim's choice. He was able to ambush the suspect while the suspect was distracted by someone else and placed the gun to the back of the suspect's head and fired, instantly incapacitating him.

Anecdotally I'd say more than half are 1-3', the vast majority within 1-7'. We'll see if the numbers bear that out, but as I've eliminated criminal on criminal stats, the distances are dropping and round count is dropping.

Alembic
10-25-2015, 09:10 PM
Mods can this become a sticky as BehindBluel's begins to post stats?

These stats will be very helpful in understanding which situations the average citizen is likely to encounter.

As a non-LEO, non-military, I feel very privileged to be able to look into your world. The knowledge and direction I have gained is invaluable.

With much respect, Thank you

voodoo_man
10-26-2015, 08:58 AM
Re; guns carried by suspects/criminals:

Ive only ever encountered nonholstered, no round in the chamber, mexican carry and similar pocket carry.

Nephrology
10-26-2015, 05:35 PM
I'll probably just post them here. Say an update every 100 incidents?

Do you guys want bad shoots (legally speaking) included? Something like this:



I'm thinking to keep it separate, but would entertain arguments for including them. To me it's not a self defense shooting, it's not defending yourself against a life altering crime. Legally, not a good shoot although the prosecutor may not file depending on the situation.

I will read whatever you have to share.

Am I correct in remembering that you work in a mid-sized East Coast city? Just want to have a vague idea of the locale of this information for reference's sake.

BehindBlueI's
10-26-2015, 05:45 PM
I will read whatever you have to share.

Am I correct in remembering that you work in a mid-sized East Coast city? Just want to have a vague idea of the locale of this information for reference's sake.

Indianapolis.

BehindBlueI's
10-26-2015, 06:16 PM
Is there anyway to cut and paste an Excel document and preserve formatting?

Scal
10-26-2015, 06:50 PM
Is there anyway to cut and paste an Excel document and preserve formatting?

Using Excel 2010, you can copy or cut whatever area you select, then right click on the area you want to paste, and you'll get several formatting options as icons. The third from the left leaves the formulas you're using intact, and the fifth from the left keeps formatting intact. Hope that helps.


Also, I wanted to thank you for your work. I'm really interested to see the stats, and I just wanted to thank everyone reading this for the really high signal to noise ratio on this forum. I'm just a dabbler compared to most of you, so I don't really have much to contribute in general....figured I could at least offer Excel help.

BehindBlueI's
10-26-2015, 07:29 PM
Using Excel 2010, you can copy or cut whatever area you select, then right click on the area you want to paste, and you'll get several formatting options as icons. The third from the left leaves the formulas you're using intact, and the fifth from the left keeps formatting intact. Hope that helps.


Also, I wanted to thank you for your work. I'm really interested to see the stats, and I just wanted to thank everyone reading this for the really high signal to noise ratio on this forum. I'm just a dabbler compared to most of you, so I don't really have much to contribute in general....figured I could at least offer Excel help.

Ah, sorry, I meant cut and paste into the forum.

Scal
10-26-2015, 07:47 PM
Ah, sorry, I meant cut and paste into the forum.

Ummmm..... Could you highlight the stats, then save them as a pdf and attach it? It wouldn't be able to to be manipulated easily from the forum, but it would be legible and keep formatting.

I'm totally out of my depth about pasting live Excel stuff onto a message board.

BehindBlueI's
10-26-2015, 07:56 PM
15 incidents at this point.

3 incidents, citizen fired 1 shot.
3 incidents, citizen fired 0 shots (either display only or was killed/disabled prior to firing)
5 incidents, N/A (weapon used was not a firearm)
2 incident, citizen fired 3 shots (citizen was then shot himself and disabled) (display only resolved, suspects fleeing before shots were fired)
1 incident, citizen fired 11 shots (first shot resolved situation but citizen continued to fire, not realizing suspect was disabled)
1 incident, citizen fired 4 shots (first shot resolved situation, suspect began to flee)

10 wins. 5 losses

Losses due to:
Victim failed to deactivate thumb safety, victimized (rape)
Victim carrying with empty chamber, killed with firearm in hand but unchambered
Victim killed reaching for weapon, off body carry
Victim engaged 2 suspects he can see, shot from behind, suspects flee, disabled but survived
Victim wrestled suspect, was shot, suspect fled, unarmed resist, disabled but survived

Wins:
Suspect fled at display of fiream
Suspect killed
Suspect killed
Suspect killed
Suspect disabled, apprehended
Victim overpowered suspect, disarmed him, held for police
Single shot shotgun fired into ceiling, suspect fled
Victim cut suspect, exposing intestines, all parties fled, suspects apprehended
Victim parked, suspect approached with gun, victim fired through window, disabling suspect
Victim activated stun gun in the air, suspect fled.


Suspect hit:
4 Yes
3 No
8 NA (non-firearm or no shots fired)

Distance at time of armed resistance
6 contact
4 arm's length (0-3 feet)
1 3-7'
3 7-21'
1 21' + (suspects were fleeing prior to shots being fired)

Reloads:
0

Additional equipment used (flashlight, etc.):
0

Victim weapon
Handgun
Handgun-revolver
Handgun-revolver
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-revolver
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-pistol
Golf club
Unarmed
shotgun
knife
Handgun-revolver
Handgun-pistol
Unarmed
taser


Suspect weapon
Unarmed
unarmed/handgun
Handgun-pistol
Unarmed
Handgun-pistol
Unarmed
unknown/handgun
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-pistol
unarmed
unarmed
Handgun-unknown
Handgun-pistol
Handgun-unknown
unarmed


# of suspects
1
2
1
3
1
1
2
1
1
2
1
1
2
3
3
1
1
3

MVS
10-26-2015, 08:24 PM
All interesting. Thanks for the work. This paragraph especially enlightening, though not surprising,

Losses due to:
Victim failed to deactivate thumb safety, victimized (rape)
Victim carrying with empty chamber, killed with firearm in hand but unchambered
Victim killed reaching for weapon, off body carry
Victim engaged 2 suspects he can see, shot from behind, suspects flee, disabled but survived
Victim wrestled suspect, was shot, suspect fled, unarmed resist, disabled but survived

Luger
10-27-2015, 03:09 AM
Maybe this is off topic, but are there any stats on the difference between resistance (against attacks with firearms, edged weapons or blunt objects) with and without a firearm?

To me it's obvious, that proper use of a firearm will give you a better chance to survive and avoid severe injury. But how much better?

Kukuforguns
10-27-2015, 03:54 PM
There are several studies regarding the outcomes of resistance to violent crime, including Gary Kleck. You can Google resistance to violent crime and find some of the studies. The studies cite other similar studies, so you can pretty quickly identify the major studies. In general, resistance reduces the rate of injuries, but the severity of victim injuries increases. The greater the resistance (screaming, running, hitting, knife, gun) the better the outcome for the victim.

Here's one study: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gary_Kleck/publication/249470228_RESISTING_CRIME_THE_EFFECTS_OF_VICTIM_AC TION_ON_THE_OUTCOMES_OF_CRIMES/links/541070d60cf2df04e75d5c5b.pdf
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Luger
10-28-2015, 02:26 PM
Thank you.

BehindBlueI's
11-07-2015, 05:01 PM
if someone picks up a rental female and once he takes her home is robbed, would you want that in the stats? My initial thought is no because his own criminal action of picking up a rental female is the same as buying dope, a criminal action that led to him being the target. That said, the same thing happens with bringing random bar chick home, so still random. In that sense, it's no different than delivering a pizza and being targeted due to that.

So, what do you think, is bringing a prostitute home still citizen v criminal or does that take it to the realm of criminal v criminal?

JustOneGun
11-07-2015, 05:26 PM
I would think that just doing the criminal act allows the citizen to become a criminal and to understand the risks/odds. So IMHO there would be no need to include them. Most people don't bring them home and most are interested in your stats based on an average everyday life events. I know I am only interested in those.

voodoo_man
11-16-2015, 04:58 PM
if someone picks up a rental female and once he takes her home is robbed, would you want that in the stats? My initial thought is no because his own criminal action of picking up a rental female is the same as buying dope, a criminal action that led to him being the target. That said, the same thing happens with bringing random bar chick home, so still random. In that sense, it's no different than delivering a pizza and being targeted due to that.

So, what do you think, is bringing a prostitute home still citizen v criminal or does that take it to the realm of criminal v criminal?

Locally, violent crimes stemming from criminal conduct allow for charges on both parties.

rsa-otc
11-16-2015, 07:26 PM
if someone picks up a rental female and once he takes her home is robbed, would you want that in the stats? My initial thought is no because his own criminal action of picking up a rental female is the same as buying dope, a criminal action that led to him being the target. That said, the same thing happens with bringing random bar chick home, so still random. In that sense, it's no different than delivering a pizza and being targeted due to that.

So, what do you think, is bringing a prostitute home still citizen v criminal or does that take it to the realm of criminal v criminal?

To me that comes under "Don't goto stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things". Not worthy of being included in the stats.

Hauptmann
11-16-2015, 08:26 PM
I'll tell you what a great stat would be. If someone kept track of all the shootings that occur in the US and count up how many times each caliber stops an aggressor with one shot. Then have a table with all the information and the relative kinetic energy from each caliber that was used.:D

BehindBlueI's
11-16-2015, 08:38 PM
I'll tell you what a great stat would be. If someone kept track of all the shootings that occur in the US and count up how many times each caliber stops an aggressor with one shot. Then have a table with all the information and the relative kinetic energy from each caliber that was used.:D


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