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irishshooter
02-28-2011, 04:05 PM
regarding CQB, especially based on the caliber of individuals responding here. i am sure like others, i have neglected my open hand/edged weapon training and realize this is a big mistake. i have no martial arts training, alot of pistol training and have yet to get to one of southnarcs ECQB courses :mad: (do have Southnarcs PUC DVD on its way though) ;) For Southnarc or any others what would you suggest for starting out in unarmed offensive and defensive training? any certain style of martial arts for ECQB? thanks in advance

jar
02-28-2011, 04:52 PM
slightly off topic but still regarding CQB, especially based on the caliber of individuals responding here. i am sure like others, i have neglected my open hand/edged weapon training and realize this is a big mistake. i have no martial arts training, alot of pistol training and have yet to get to one of southnarcs ECQB courses :mad: (do have Southnarcs PUC DVD on its way though) ;) For Southnarc or any others what would you suggest for starting out in unarmed offensive and defensive training? any certain style of martial arts for ECQB? thanks in advance

I'll toss out my opinion as a desk jockey who's been to ECQC a few times, but hasn't really dedicated enough time to doing the work. I think the most important factor is being in decent shape. All the skill training in the world won't help you if you have no strength and gas in 5 seconds. I'm much better than when I started but still struggle to do the work consistently.

As far as what martial arts to study, look at what the MMA guys are doing. Boxing, Wresting, Muy Thai, and Brazilian Jujitsu are all solid pieces. The best would be a place that puts the pieces together in to an integrated whole, including weapons. That's not very common, but there are some places out there.

If I decided to devote more time to training, I'd start with BJJ.

irishshooter
02-28-2011, 05:02 PM
thanks Jar, appreciate the advice. i know that cardio is paramount and i could certainly use a little more time in the gym. will certainly be looking for a place that understands a desire to learn real world SD techniques without focusing specifically on belts or forms i guess;again something more akin to southnarcs courses. thanks again. BTW you wouldnt be a fellow NESer with that same handle would ya ;)

jar
02-28-2011, 05:23 PM
thanks Jar, appreciate the advice. i know that cardio is paramount and i could certainly use a little more time in the gym. will certainly be looking for a place that understands a desire to learn real world SD techniques without focusing specifically on belts or forms i guess;again something more akin to southnarcs courses. thanks again. BTW you wouldnt be a fellow NESer with that same handle would ya ;)

That would be me. If you're looking to get into some training, check out the NEShooter's conference coming up the first weekend in April. Southnarc will be there, along with a bunch of other great trainers.

phil_in_cs
02-28-2011, 05:40 PM
My key bit from the PUC section of ECQC was "if you aren't conscious and mobile you're fucked". I started taking stand up wrestling at an MMA gym, rather than BJJ, with the hope that with better skills I can stay on my feet or be able to get back up quickly to try to maintain mobility. Being on the ground and head stomped by an opponent (or opponents) is not the place you want to be.

I have to say the biggest thing so far in my training has been the idea of speeding up my decision making. When someone is attacking you full speed with the idea they want to defeat you, you must not only respond quickly, but learn to attack even more quickly. All too often I will see something briefly and it is gone before I can attack it. Things happen very fast in a fight, and being able to maintain that pace mentally is as much of a struggle as trying to learn the physical skills.

Cardio is king. Work speed rope outside of any classes you take.

I'm taking ECQC again in a few months and will see if that helps much.

irishshooter
02-28-2011, 05:42 PM
thought it could be. unfortunately the SUmmitt does not work for me time wise, i'll be away and am pissed :mad: but i hope to catch it next year. line-up looks INCREDIBLE. heres hoping it continues with the same level instruction for next year!

SouthNarc
02-28-2011, 07:01 PM
When we're trying to develop an empty hand skill set for gun bearers concerned about street crime we have to look at several things.

First, adequetely addressing the problems of encroachment and victimizaton by bad guys. There aren't many places that teach this at all unfortunately which is why I did the PUC DVD.

Secondly, developing something that can be learned in a relatively short period of time that actually works.

Finally how does this relate to weapons and multiple opponents?

The worst hand to hand problems for a gun guy on the street are entanglement and immobility. That would trend us towards grappling arts namely BJJ for horizontal grappling and Greco-Roman for vertical grappling. The GOAL is not to get entangled or to unentangle. To do that one must spend time learning this. The only way to learn how to "un-grapple" is to.....grapple. Girl-scratching the eyes, biting and "gouging" are NOT "counter-grappling"

I think modern MMA provides the optimal delivery system and needs only about a 15 degree tweak to be functionalized for street work.

MMA and the grappling sub disciplines that are in it, also are trained in a resistance based, non-consensual format which gives the student immediate feedback and gets them used to PRESSURE. Real....world....pressure.

That's incredibly important.

I'd find a local MMA gym and lacking that look for an orthodox BJJ school and maybe supplement that with some wrestling at the local high school if they have it and will allow you to participate.

After that you probably need to find one of the handful of guys that are doing "Tactical MMA" for lack of a better term and go see them to tweak your game for the multi-disciplinary environment.. There are about 8 guys that I would push you towards. That's it.

Blake
02-28-2011, 10:17 PM
I think this is a great topic. In my opinion close quarters fighting could be one of the most over-looked defense areas out there. Contact distance defense shooting and "hand-to-hand defense" skills are critical. I hope to brush up a bit more on this in a couple of months at a SouthNarc class. While I've had some decent training in groundfighting, it has been minimal when it concerns firearms. I'm looking forward to exploring that area.

SLG
02-28-2011, 10:58 PM
SN,

I'm sure I'm not the only who is curious, which 8 men would you recommend?

SouthNarc
02-28-2011, 11:04 PM
Paul Sharp, Mike Brown, Chris Fry, Chris Leblanc, Ryan Mayfield, Phil Whitfield, Don Gula, and me. Whitfield is in the UK and I've never met Gula but heard good things from guys I trust. The other five I talk to on a weekly basis.

I see Phil Whitfield a couple of times a year here, in the UK or in Europe.

SLG
02-28-2011, 11:12 PM
Cool, thanks!

ljgrohn
03-01-2011, 01:41 AM
irishshooter,

I think Southnarc really hit it on the head with his recommendation to look for a MMA gym. The fact that at some point you will be rolling (grappling) or sparring with someone else who is trying to best you, will give you great feed back on how the training you are receiving is working.

If there is one thing I have learned it this: make your worst day in the gym, good enough to overcome on the street. So wherever you end up, make sure you find some like minded people to train with, and train hard.

One last thought. I agree with the fellas who said a BJJ is another good option. However if you do end up looking at these schools, be careful to not pick one that is more worried about their next upcoming match, than you safety on the street.

Hope this help a little bit.

LJ

David Armstrong
03-01-2011, 03:03 PM
For quick results I suggest Krav Maga if you can find someone who actually knows how to teach it. It was designed to bring the average person up to a good level fairly quickly. That is also its limitation, however. It will not give you the skills and expertise that years of cross-discipline MMA-type training will. We used to offer it as a quick-learn for executives and such going into not-so-friendly places and it put them a few notches above the typical street fighter, but nowhere near the level of the highly trained fighter.

Blake
03-01-2011, 09:06 PM
Paul Sharp, Mike Brown, Chris Fry, Chris Leblanc, Ryan Mayfield, Phil Whitfield, Don Gula, and me. Whitfield is in the UK and I've never met Gula but heard good things from guys I trust. The other five I talk to on a weekly basis.

I see Phil Whitfield a couple of times a year here, in the UK or in Europe.

Is this Chris Fry with M.D.T.S.?

I see there are a few classes from them in SW PA. They have a knife class in March. I may have to hit that one.

SouthNarc
03-01-2011, 09:39 PM
That would be him!

45R
03-01-2011, 10:54 PM
SouthNarc's ECQC class is on my short list of classes to take this year :)

fm2
03-02-2011, 05:34 PM
While you are searching out your mma gym, I'd highly recommend getting a heart rate monitor and get some baseline numbers for resting heart rate and a training log. Then if your resting heart rate is not in the 50's, start on L. Lindenman's lower your resting heart rate program on TPI.

xdm
03-03-2011, 04:07 PM
But you need to keep in mine MMA fighter fight to win and have rules to go by on the street you fight to stay alive with no rules. With out a gun or knife you have 9 weapons on you (not counting the most important weapon your brain) you have your feet, knees, hands, elbow, and your forehead just keep that in mine when you train at a mma gym also learn the so call dirty trick and used them in a CQB

ljgrohn
03-04-2011, 02:36 AM
Yeah it seemed like the idea Southnarc preposed was to train, and then have it tuned to self-defense, by cross training with specific types of programs :)

Munson
04-27-2011, 09:35 AM
For quick results I suggest Krav Maga if you can find someone who actually knows how to teach it. It was designed to bring the average person up to a good level fairly quickly. That is also its limitation, however. It will not give you the skills and expertise that years of cross-discipline MMA-type training will. We used to offer it as a quick-learn for executives and such going into not-so-friendly places and it put them a few notches above the typical street fighter, but nowhere near the level of the highly trained fighter.

By no means do I claim to be an expert on hand to hand, and highly value your guys opinion on this. But I found krav maga a great asset. I did BJJ and did not like it because the focus was to get the individual on the ground and then own him. Well I don't want to be on the ground. I might own him, but not his buddy with a pipe sneaking up behind me. I started krav and found it very quick to learn. Very effective and devestating. And most important to me, I could easily remember what to do during the sparring sessions. In BJJ, I was always getting confused about what to do in certain positions because it was very positional based. In krav, it was one move to defeat this, then 2-3 strikes and your ready for the next guy. It was also a good carduo workout in the class. Im over simplifing it, but that was the just. We also did knife and gun fights in every class.

John Ralston
04-27-2011, 11:29 AM
Paul Sharp, Mike Brown, Chris Fry, Chris Leblanc, Ryan Mayfield, Phil Whitfield, Don Gula, and me. Whitfield is in the UK and I've never met Gula but heard good things from guys I trust. The other five I talk to on a weekly basis.

I see Phil Whitfield a couple of times a year here, in the UK or in Europe.

So...I lived within 10 minutes of Chris Leblanc for 15 years, and I find this out now, when I have a 6 hour drive to get there, that I should have been hitting him up for training!?!?!?

ToddG
04-27-2011, 11:33 AM
So...I lived within 10 minutes of Chris Leblanc for 15 years, and I find this out now, when I have a 6 hour drive to get there, that I should have been hitting him up for training!?!?!?

Hitting Chris Leblanc is probably an excellent way to get an introductory PUC lesson. :cool:

Dropkick
04-27-2011, 11:49 AM
hitting chris leblanc is probably an excellent way to get an introductory puc lesson. :cool:

hahahah, i c wut u did thar!

John Ralston
04-27-2011, 12:18 PM
Hitting Chris Leblanc is probably an excellent way to get an introductory PUC lesson. :cool:

If you get him in the collar bone, you might have a chance (you can pick up an extra second or two that way).