Any studies of psychological stops?

[BehindBlueI's]

Given that so many shootings result in nobody hit, or a marginal hit, and one participant simply vacates the playing field I'm curious if anyone knows of any studies of factors in psychological stops. For example, does lighting where a muzzle flash is more visible play any effect? Does the loudness, either due to caliber or confined spaces, have any effect?

Just something I'm curious about.

[DocGKR]

Yes and no.

Lot's of interviews with subjects involved in such encounters; no way to do a controlled study.

[GJM]

Quick summary -- all the psychological stops are 9mm, and the CNS/fight ending stops are with .45. :)

[voodoo_man]

The sound rarely matters after the first one or two shots, especially if they are at you.

Different people feel and experience different things, I've had auditory exclusion and inclusion, "bullet time" slow motion style and super fast can't remember anything blurs.

Coworker dropped a dude that was running on a roof shooting at him as he was on the street, when he was interviewed he said he did not remember drawing his gun and firing at all - he couldn't hit the target in the academy but did not miss a single shot (of 8).

The only "known" is that you'll experience something, what though? Only way to really tell is to actually experience it.

edit; might not have understood the OP correctly.

Just a quick reference point - I read an article several years ago (the name escapes me currently) which outlined several incidents where people and LEO's were shot and fell on purpose, without having enough injury to make them fall, but the fact that they were shot and them knowing they were shot made them fall and "stop" fighting.

[Dagga Boy]

As doc said no way to do a controlled study. With that said, many years ago when Dr. Fackler was doing his ballistics work in gelatin one round threw a wrench in the equation.....357 Magnum, particularly the 125gr. It was a very good round in gelatin testing, but nothing like the street death ray reputation. Investigators looked at many of the shootings where this round exhibited its legendary performance. A series of similarities was noted. At night or very low light, a distance of 6 feet or less, and a barrel of 4" or less. This was back in the days before a lot of the low flash powders were in use and 125 gr. 357 threw a 20 plus yard ball of flame down range......imagine 6 feet. The consensus was that while the round was very good, the impact of the factors of flash and noise were very likely the mechanism for putting folks on the deck so fast. Humans simply do not like things exploding in their face. In a non scientific study, my best friend did a lot of work with GSG-9 and GIGN back in the old days. He he was also a big fan of the .357 snub which was referred to as a .38 with flash bang. It was part of the factor of liking them for close quarters shooting in tubes (aircraft and trains, etc).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One can look at different factors:

1. A rational decision to stop.
2. Fainting from stress,exhauston and extertion correlated with the incident
3. An extreme phobic reaction called blood injury phobia - like a faint but from the slightest injury. Affects about 2% of the population and may be genetic. Studied a great deal in medicine, esp. dentistry as it keeps folks from getting care.

As far as a real world study of it - that would be hard to do.

It has been argued that the time slowing down effect is illusory. It might be an effect of remembering the incident later. A experiment making people do time judgements under extreme stress didn't find an effect. I have it somewhere.

Not remembering details and distortion is a classic memory effect.

[BaiHu]

DELETED: Didn't realize Glenn and others already chimed in.

[pablo]

From my own observations, I'm a believer in the "this shit just got real" effect. IMO most people resist because they don't think that they will get hurt or experience any significant pain. Once that myth is dispelled they tend to give up. Pain is what general separates the people that are serious about fighting from the people that have romantic notions about fighting.

It's similar to the bravery in handcuffs effects, that guy that once he's in cuffs he suddenly becomes Billy Badass, once he gets to jail and the cuffs come off and he has the opportunity to fight, he quiets down.

There's quite a bit of bravery at gun point because people don't think that they will get shot.

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes and no.

Lot's of interviews with subjects involved in such encounters; no way to do a controlled study.

I understand it's not the sort of thing done in a lab. Any consensus on trends from interviews?

[LSP552]

People often react like they are programmed to do. Unfortunately, without quality training, some of that programing can come from TV or other expectations. I can't count the number of times I've seen academy cadets grab their chest and slump against the wall when they are "shot." It doesn't matter if a sim round hit them or not. They hear the noise, see flash, see someone shooting and they react how they have been programmed to do, by acting shot and stopping. This is off topic but that's when a quality FoF instructor needs to make them work through the problem, not just roll over and die.

I've seen it enough in training to not be surprised that someone might stop when they take incoming, even if not incapacitated.

I have no idea how you could conduct a real study.

[LSP972]

I've seen it enough in training to not be surprised that someone might stop when they take incoming, even if not incapacitated.




William Douglas' shooting (the second one after we got the semi-auto program going) was a classic case of psychological incapacitation. It was so "textbook", Fackler had me use it as an example at the second Wound Ballistics Seminar.

.

[LSP552]

William Douglas' shooting (the second one after we got the semi-auto program going) was a classic case of psychological incapacitation. It was so "textbook", Fackler had me use it as an example at the second Wound Ballistics Seminar.

.

Thanks Steve, forgot about that one.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'll say our department does a very good job of training that out of our officers. We've had several stay in the fight injured catastrophically or even fatally and I can't think of any that bailed inappropriately.

I'm thinking more of suspects who surrender to either police or civilian shooters, though. I know a lot depends on the individual and the context. We've all seen guys surrender from loud noises (aka misses), a .25 to the pinky, and we've all seen the guy stay in the fight with a .357 mag through the chest. That's why I was curious if there were any documented over all trends. A good study would have to encompass a metric butt ton of cases to try to root out all the other variables. I took statistics back in college, but didn't really understand the math when I was in the class, let alone this many years later, so I'm going to have to rely on people smarter than me on this one. All I've got is contradicting anecdotal evidence.

[dbateman]

I'm curious if anyone knows of any studies of factors in psychological stops. For example, does lighting where a muzzle flash is more visible play any effect? Does the loudness, either due to caliber or confined spaces, have any effect?

Just something I'm curious about.

The only one that I know of was a study done by the ADF going back to VN.
I have no idea how you would find it. But it's worth the time looking.

[JHC]

As doc said no way to do a controlled study. With that said, many years ago when Dr. Fackler was doing his ballistics work in gelatin one round threw a wrench in the equation.....357 Magnum, particularly the 125gr. It was a very good round in gelatin testing, but nothing like the street death ray reputation. Investigators looked at many of the shootings where this round exhibited its legendary performance. A series of similarities was noted. At night or very low light, a distance of 6 feet or less, and a barrel of 4" or less. This was back in the days before a lot of the low flash powders were in use and 125 gr. 357 threw a 20 plus yard ball of flame down range......imagine 6 feet. The consensus was that while the round was very good, the impact of the factors of flash and noise were very likely the mechanism for putting folks on the deck so fast. Humans simply do not like things exploding in their face. In a non scientific study, my best friend did a lot of work with GSG-9 and GIGN back in the old days. He he was also a big fan of the .357 snub which was referred to as a .38 with flash bang. It was part of the factor of liking them for close quarters shooting in tubes (aircraft and trains, etc).

Back in the '90's through the Ammolab days I was always on the search for the ultimate manstopper and I recall many advocacy articles full of .357 125 grain JHP anecdotes of the BG being thrown off his feet. Eventually with the help of Fackler/Roberts/et al, we figure out that this is not possible via actual bullet energy. It makes sense to me that described above is possibly the mechanism where folks threw themselves backwards violently to avoid that exploding fireball.

OTOH "good is good".

[BehindBlueI's]

The only one that I know of was a study done by the ADF going back to VN.
I have no idea how you would find it. But it's worth the time looking.

ADF?

[Peally]

Aussie Defense Force, correct me if I'm wrong.

[PNWTO]

As doc said no way to do a controlled study. With that said, many years ago when Dr. Fackler was doing his ballistics work in gelatin one round threw a wrench in the equation.....357 Magnum, particularly the 125gr. It was a very good round in gelatin testing, but nothing like the street death ray reputation. Investigators looked at many of the shootings where this round exhibited its legendary performance. A series of similarities was noted. At night or very low light, a distance of 6 feet or less, and a barrel of 4" or less. This was back in the days before a lot of the low flash powders were in use and 125 gr. 357 threw a 20 plus yard ball of flame down range......imagine 6 feet. The consensus was that while the round was very good, the impact of the factors of flash and noise were very likely the mechanism for putting folks on the deck so fast. Humans simply do not like things exploding in their face. In a non scientific study, my best friend did a lot of work with GSG-9 and GIGN back in the old days. He he was also a big fan of the .357 snub which was referred to as a .38 with flash bang. It was part of the factor of liking them for close quarters shooting in tubes (aircraft and trains, etc).

You've talked about this effect before and I would love to hear more.

[BehindBlueI's]

As doc said no way to do a controlled study. With that said, many years ago when Dr. Fackler was doing his ballistics work in gelatin one round threw a wrench in the equation.....357 Magnum, particularly the 125gr. It was a very good round in gelatin testing, but nothing like the street death ray reputation. Investigators looked at many of the shootings where this round exhibited its legendary performance. A series of similarities was noted. At night or very low light, a distance of 6 feet or less, and a barrel of 4" or less. This was back in the days before a lot of the low flash powders were in use and 125 gr. 357 threw a 20 plus yard ball of flame down range......imagine 6 feet. The consensus was that while the round was very good, the impact of the factors of flash and noise were very likely the mechanism for putting folks on the deck so fast. Humans simply do not like things exploding in their face. In a non scientific study, my best friend did a lot of work with GSG-9 and GIGN back in the old days. He he was also a big fan of the .357 snub which was referred to as a .38 with flash bang. It was part of the factor of liking them for close quarters shooting in tubes (aircraft and trains, etc).

I wonder if that's also some of the effect of the .357 Sig. I recall when I first saw one being shot. It was at an IDPA match in late 2000. The grapefruit sized muzzle blast was certainly impressive.

[Dagga Boy]

I wonder if that's also some of the effect of the .357 Sig. I recall when I first saw one being shot. It was at an IDPA match in late 2000. The grapefruit sized muzzle blast was certainly impressive.

With the low flash powders and the operating system, I think it is an effect that .357 Sig is lacking, but many pundits say is the same.

[GardoneVT]

In Cirillos book on the old NYCPD Stakeout Squad, one job resulted in a close range shootout . One of Cirillo's partner officers fired a 12 gauge short barrel at a suspect who instantly folded up crying for a medic. The other accomplices died on the spot.

EMT arrives to mend the shot up survivor. Turned out he didn't have a mark on him and the officer missed completely.

[voodoo_man]

In Cirillos book on the old NYCPD Stakeout Squad, one job resulted in a close range shootout . One of Cirillo's partner officers fired a 12 gauge short barrel at a suspect who instantly folded up crying for a medic. The other accomplices died on the spot.

EMT arrives to mend the shot up survivor. Turned out he didn't have a mark on him and the officer missed completely.

Thats called beingabitchitus.

[DocGKR]

There are multiple reports of individuals collapsing after being shot at with rifles and shotguns from close ranges, despite the projectile NOT hitting the subject. It has been hypothesized that the effects of burning powder granules and muzzle blast influenced the suspect to "feel" like they had been hit, when if fact no projectile touched them...

[GJM]

In the crazier category, a friend of mine shot at a bull moose. He missed the body of the moose, but grazed an antler. The graze caused the moose to fall into the water and drown. I saw the graze mark on the antler, later, and it was the only shot fired.

[BehindBlueI's]

There are multiple reports of individuals collapsing after being shot at with rifles and shotguns from close ranges, despite the projectile NOT hitting the subject. It has been hypothesized that the effects of burning powder granules and muzzle blast influenced the suspect to "feel" like they had been hit, when if fact no projectile touched them...

Huh. Now that you say that we had an ED call himself in as a robbery suspect in an attempt to set up a suicide by cop. A guy fired one shot from a patrol rifle and the guy doubled over and fell down just like he was hit, but he wasn't. I just figured he changed his mind on the suicide thing, but now I wonder.

[AGR416]

Given that so many shootings result in nobody hit, or a marginal hit, and one participant simply vacates the playing field I'm curious if anyone knows of any studies of factors in psychological stops. For example, does lighting where a muzzle flash is more visible play any effect? Does the loudness, either due to caliber or confined spaces, have any effect?

Just something I'm curious about.

Totally different context, seeing as I was mil, but near misses from rifle rounds will definitely have an effect. Especially if you are the intended target.
The noise made by weapons discharging has little to no effect. Debris from rounds impacting very close can affect the target.

Many factors will play a role, from previous combat/gunfight experience, training, morale, etc.

[dbateman]

ADF?


Aussie Defense Force, correct me if I'm wrong.


Yep Australian Defence Force.


It is a study done by psychs they wen't around and interview(?) people about their experience, mainly people whom had just been in a fight.
They look at a lot of things psychological stops are one of the things they look at.

I am 100% sure somewhere someone at sometime, in some branch of the US military has done a similar thing.

[JHC]

In the crazier category, a friend of mine shot at a bull moose. He missed the body of the moose, but grazed an antler. The graze caused the moose to fall into the water and drown. I saw the graze mark on the antler, later, and it was the only shot fired.

.45 ACP ball!!!

That's amazing.