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View Full Version : AAR: Kyle Defoor 2-Day Advanced Handgun - Sept. 14-15, 2011 - Castro Valley, CA



DocGKR
09-16-2011, 03:30 AM
Thanks to Grey Group Training and the staff at Chabot Gun Club for arranging another excellent West Coast training opportunity.

As most folks are aware, Kyle Defoor is a combat experienced instructor who heralds from the NSW community (http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/11/bio.html). He brings a slightly different twist to the pistol than folks from LE and other non-maritime military SOF backgrounds.

The class began with a series of skill assessments (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJtczDAUul0). Shooters started at their target and ran back to the 25 yd line where 6 shots were fired into a NRA 25 yd B8 bullseye repair target positioned at the bottom of an IPSC target A-zone—at least 50 points were required to pass. Shooters next moved to the 7 yd line where they shot 3 tests drawing from concealment. The first consisted of firing one shot into the reduced IPSC A-zone above the NRA bull within 2 sec. Then a 6 shot Bill Drill was fired into the reduced A-zone with passing being 4.5 sec or less. Finally 2 shots were fired within 3.5 sec into the IPSC target head A-zone or “credit card”. I got lucky during this test and won a pair of Smith Optics Hudson sunglasses. During the course of the class, Kyle generously gave out additional Smith sunglasses, Safariland holsters, and Ameriglo “Defoor” Glock sights for the top scorers of various drills.

Kyle mentioned that all of his drills were designed to be shot from concealment. He is quite adamant that IWB/AIWB is the best way to carry in a truly concealed fashion. Kyle was rocking an aggressively stippled G17 equipped with his Ameriglo “Defoor” sights holstered in a simple Safariland IWB holster at 3 o’clock that is hooked to a thin Patagonia belt and hidden under a T-shirt. For CCW, he typically carries one G17 mag for a reload that he just tucks into his belt sans mag pouch. He also carries a Tracker Dan Bloodshark fixed blade knife in a horizontal belt sheath at 11 o’clock. FWIW, like many other instructors, Kyle is NOT a fan of Serpa holsters...

Kyle showing his knife and spare mag:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6081/6159643002_235c424660_b.jpg

Kyle then went over his thoughts on proper pistol grip, emphasizing the need for good support hand placement. He also discussed the need for an aggressive, wide based stance. Unlike many other instructors, Kyle emphasized his preference for a high ready position with pistols—the front sight is nearly even with the eyes, with a slight upward cant to the barrel. He also emphasized a similar high position when reloading. Kyle also discussed the problems that can occur with a low ready, as well as compressed ready positions like SUL, particularly as related to LE/CQB/PSD use in tight quarters. This was billed as an advanced class, so Kyle assumed the students knew how to run a pistol, as such we were expected to rapidly deal with any malfunctions and drive on.

Kyle in his high ready:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6161/6152492975_65c4927772_b.jpg

At 25 yds, we loaded 1 rd in the pistol, with an empty mag. One shot was fired, followed by a rapid reload and additional shot. This was repeated 5 times for a total of 10 shots. This same drill was conducted again, but only using the strong had for all shots and pistol manipulations.

Shooting from kneeling and prone was up next, including Kyle demonstrating a golf style grip to improve pistol positioning for prone shooting.

Kyle demonstrating prone grip:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6073/6159643024_b827dbc8bc_b.jpg

A walk back drill done on a steel C-zone size target was performed next, with the winner hitting at 125 yds.

Following this, Kyle changed pace and had us working on press-outs at 7 yds. From the high ready he required an A-zone hit in under 0.75 sec and from the draw under 2 sec and preferably under 1.75 sec—from the draw the best shooters were often under 1.5 sec, with a couple approaching 1.25 sec.

The class then focused on improving shot speed, doing quite a few 6 round strings at increasing speeds into the A-zone at 7 yds, building up to a test drawing and firing 6 rounds in under 3 sec.

A final test was conducted on NRA bulls—5 shots at 7 yds, 5 shots at 15 yds, 5 shots at 25 yds. You needed to keep them all on the black and aim for a score of 145 or above.

Unfortunately, range restrictions prevented Kyle’s normal low-light shooting segment. He did mention that while he likes pistol mounted lights from duty holsters, he generally relies on a hand held light with neck index for concealed use. All in all day one progressed at a fairly leisurely pace with shooters building skill and speed. I fired 310 rounds over the first day.

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The class pace significantly picked up on day two and by the end I had expended another 480 rounds. The second day began with another skill assessment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcoBHmXHxMk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL) fired from 25 yds. This was only a 6 shot test, but is deceptively difficult. Shooters fired 2 rounds in 4 sec from concealment. This is repeated three times. Passing score is 25 using Vickers scoring on the IPSC target: A=5 pnts, C=3 pnts, D=0 pnts.

Next Kyle showed us his somewhat controversial take on running with a pistol in high port and detailed why he preferred this method--the pistol is held up next to the strong side ear, with the mag well pointed toward the target. While appearing a bit unorthodox and looking eerily like one of “Charlie’s Angels” doing the full “Sabrina”, the method proved effective for the task at hand. A series of drills were conducted using this upward carry style, including over bounding drills with shooters in widely spaced lanes safely shooting past one another. Note that Kyle remained cognizant of proper safety practices and never placed anyone in a dangerous situation.

Full "Sabrina" running technique advocated by Kyle:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6062/6152513837_5b56147854_b.jpg

Next turns were discussed and practiced. Kyle strongly believes in a simple, natural turn method that allows turns in tight spaces, such as 3 foot wide doorways—he feels that complex pivot techniques are unnatural and do not work in confined quarters.

Several drills were then conducted with varying hits to the body and head to help shooters work on adapting trigger speed to the complexity of the required shot—faster cadence for body, slower for head. Several El Presidente drills were then conducted in the usual manner against 3 laterally spaced targets at 10 yards. A “tactical variant” (1-1-2-1-1) where the shooter fired 1 shot into the first target, 1 shot into the middle target, 2 shots into the third target, and then serviced the first two targets with an additional single shot each. Finally a modified “El Presidente” test at 10 yards consisting of 12 shots in 10 seconds or under was conducted using the following pattern (1-1-2-1-1 reload 2-2-2) with all hits in the A-zone. Drawing from concealment, the best shooters could run about 8.5 sec with no misses.

Barrier shooting on steel was conducted next, followed by shooting on the move in forward and lateral directions. At longer distances, Kyle suggested just rapidly moving to a new position then shooting. He generally reserves shooting on the move for closer distances: 12-15 yards and under. He demonstrated a much faster, more aggressive pace of movement than many instructors that proved highly effective at covering ground and still allowing shots to remain in the body A-zone when moving from 12 to 6 yds and into the head “credit card” A-zone as the distanced closed under 6 yds. This class section concluded with a drill at 7 yards that simulated making hits to the body and head of a falling target.

Next, another difficult test was run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wugfoKJ0-fA&feature=related. The shooters start at the target and run to 50 yds; 2 shots are fired into the A-zone, distance is then closed to 25 yds and another 2 shots are fired into the A-zone. Shooter runs to 12 yards and makes 2 head shots, then runs to 6 yds and makes and additional 2 head shots. To pass, the entire test must be completed within 60 sec; the 4 body shots must score 16 or higher; all of the head shots must be in the head zone with at least 2 in the “credit card” A-zone.

The class concluded with a discussion of contact distance fighting and the advantages a small fixed blade offers in this context. Kyle emphasized that a folding knife is USELESS for defense at this distance and offered several real world examples to prove his point. A variety of contact distance and retention shooting drills were conducted.

I liked that Kyle demonstrated or shot all of the drills and tests with the students. He readily admitted that the tests were quite hard and that they were challenging even for him. I picked up quite a bit observing how Kyle handled the different tasks.

During down time, Kyle discussed long guns. Like Pat McNamara, Kyle specifically mentioned that he prefers a 5.56 mm DI 16” barrel AR15 with a long FF rail and RDS for the majority of his carbine use, as it works indoors for CQB, but is versatile enough to allow him to make hits out to 600 yds. He also highlighted DD mid-length AR15’s as working very well for him. The only time he feels a 10.5” is useful is when a dedicated suppressor is required (bringing the rifle up to about he same OAL as an unsuppressed 16” AR15). He prefers the EOTECH eXPS for SOF combat use, but stated that he changes the batteries EVERY day when using the EOTECH in that role. As a result, for individuals and organizations where battery costs can be an issue, for example LE agencies, he recommends the micro Aimpoint H1/T1 as the best option. Kyle also mentioned an increasing trend by top SOF shooters to NOT use a VFG, to allow the FF rail to better rest against barriers when shooting. Kyle runs a stock trigger for a general purpose carbine and states the Geissele 2-stage is the optimal choice for precision shooting. He runs an S&S precision sling or a VTAC 2-point sling. Kyle is a qualified sniper and feels that except for 800+ yd shots, bolt guns have been surpassed by semi-auto rifles like the LaRue OBR. Kyle referenced his rule of 4’s on picking rifles:

5.56 mm for 400 and closer
7.62x51mm for 400-800
300 WM for 800-1200
338 Lap Mag for 1200-1600+ (he mentioned the Canadian PGW as being an outstanding rifle in this caliber)

There were a number of solid shooters in the class, including experienced LE officers, some students with past military/international PSD experience, along with several civilian shooters. Student pistols were predominately Glocks, with a few M&P’s, 1911’s, along with an HK USP45 and a poorly performing CZ. This was my first multi-day class using the Grip Force Adaptor for Glocks—the GFA proved to be a solid accessory that helped to increase my control, accuracy, and speed. The first day I used a G17 w/RMR and GFA in a Fricke Gideon Elite OWB holster at 3 o’clock. The second day I decided to run a G19 w/RMR and GFA concealed using a Fricke Seraphim holster worn AIWB at 1 o’clock. I used Kytex mag pouches both days. The WWB 115 gr FMJ I shot functioned adequately and neither pistol had any malfunctions or other problems.

For the past 2 months, I have been doing a lot of 25 yd bullseye shooting, as well as fast shot strings. At first I thought the G19 and G17 were nearly equal in accuracy and ease of shooting, but in aggregate my G19 scores and times have consistently been about 10% lower than with a G17. When I asked Kyle about this, he stated that in his experience the G19 scores about 10-15% less than the G17 when shooting for accuracy and time.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7655&filename=Glocks%20GFA.jpg

Here is the G17 in action:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6158/6153824627_0a52e0268b_b.jpg

Al T.
09-16-2011, 07:44 AM
Excellent AAR - thanks!

JM Campbell
09-16-2011, 08:09 AM
Superb AAR, thank you Doc.

jumpthestack
09-16-2011, 11:00 AM
I was in the class. The highlights for me:
- All the high ready stuff, which I had never done but actually makes a lot of sense in a lot of situations, especially for running or pressing out and shooting quickly from ready position.
- His take on the handgun grip was a little bit different. With the support hand, he emphasized pinching the gun between the thumb(along and slightly on top of the frame) and the index finger, which was wrapped around touching the grip of the gun(not your strong hand's fingers) near the trigger guard.
- The 'golf grip' for shooting from prone, where your support hand is resting on the ground gripping only the bottom of the grip, to help get the elevation to shoot from prone with the arms straight.
- His take on shooting around barricades, which is hard to describe, but basically if you're going to the right side, your right leg is forward, and if you're going to the left side, your left leg is forward, and you lean all your weight on your front leg, and shift your hips and roll out with the gun held vertical, not canted. He mentioned he wouldn't switch the gun to the support side to shoot around the support side of a barricade either with a pistol or carbine, because he thinks most people wouldn't do it in a real situation. He also prefers holding the gun vertical(not canted) for one handed shooting, to maintain your usual sight picture and recoil management.
- In the retention shooting portion, one of the core moves was to grab the opponent by the head with the support hand and pull him in close and off balance, while still positioning your body to keep the gun as far away from the opponent as possible. He said he doesn't usually teach that one in a short class for potential safety reasons but everyone was doing well. He said it was important to always be very close or far away, but never in the intermediate "arm's reach" range where it's more of an even fight.

Ga Shooter
09-16-2011, 04:44 PM
Great review.

If one of you would not mind elaborating on a couple of things.

Why is a folding knife useless for self defense?

More details on the non pivot turn please.

Thanks

YVK
09-16-2011, 08:48 PM
Thank you for a report; as usual, detailed and to the point.



For the past 2 months, I have been doing a lot of 25 yd bullseye shooting, as well as fast shot strings. At first I thought the G19 and G17 were nearly equal in accuracy and ease of shooting, but in aggregate my G19 scores and times have consistently been about 10% lower than with a G17. When I asked Kyle about this, he stated that in his experience the G19 scores about 10-15% less than the G17 when shooting for accuracy and time.


I can't help but comment on this. We always put skill above gear, "software" over "hardware" etc., however, if 10-15% performance increase is in fact a reproducible and valid generalization, then switching from 19 to 17 is a no-brainer. 10-15% is huge and while 19 hits the sweet spot for a size, 17 isn't really that much bigger. This bit of info really makes me want to buy 17, if anything then for personal verification. I wonder if there is any other evidence to that, however tangential; for example, how many folks on FAST Wall of Fame got there with 17 vs 19 etc.





Why is a folding knife useless for self defense?



I'll take a wild guess and let DocGKR provide an informed answer, but many believe folded is too difficult and too slow to deploy in a context of fast and violent close contact. I was asked to do it once in training and failed miserably, despite having practiced ours with that oversized wave feature on 10-8 Emerson knife.

jumpthestack
09-17-2011, 01:51 AM
Great review.

If one of you would not mind elaborating on a couple of things.

Why is a folding knife useless for self defense?

More details on the non pivot turn please.

Thanks

He said folders are too slow to deploy, and also sometimes people can fail to deploy the blade when under stress, and he would even prefer a 'tactical pen' over a folder. He prefers that the knife is placed so that the support hand can draw it, and it should be in a reverse grip with the point facing down(the opposite side from your thumb) and the cutting edge of the blade facing out towards the opponent. He said to do mostly stabbing motions rather than slicing.

Re: the turn, it's nothing fancy, you just turn around while staying in place and switching the positions of your feet. Start with your toes facing forward, feet shoulder width apart. Bring your right heel to your left heel with your right foot pointed to the right. Turn your upper body 180 degrees to the right and put your left foot where your right foot originally was and you're now facing the opposite direction from where you started. There is pivoting involved, it's just not the simple turn where one foot stays planted and the other leg pivots around it.

Ga Shooter
09-17-2011, 07:05 AM
He said folders are too slow to deploy, and also sometimes people can fail to deploy the blade when under stress, and he would even prefer a 'tactical pen' over a folder. He prefers that the knife is placed so that the support hand can draw it, and it should be in a reverse grip with the point facing down(the opposite side from your thumb) and the cutting edge of the blade facing out towards the opponent. He said to do mostly stabbing motions rather than slicing.

Re: the turn, it's nothing fancy, you just turn around while staying in place and switching the positions of your feet. Start with your toes facing forward, feet shoulder width apart. Bring your right heel to your left heel with your right foot pointed to the right. Turn your upper body 180 degrees to the right and put your left foot where your right foot originally was and you're now facing the opposite direction from where you started. There is pivoting involved, it's just not the simple turn where one foot stays planted and the other leg pivots around it.

Thanks for the info.

I carry a Blackhawk Crucible II and was looking at adding another but I think I will start looking at concealable fixed blades. Not bragging but I can draw and open my knife so fast I never thought it would be a problem, but of course everything changes under stress. Good thoughts.

DocGKR
09-23-2011, 08:18 PM
Additional photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/316photography/sets/72157627689350858/with/6165229288/.

F-Trooper05
09-25-2011, 12:47 PM
Great AAR, Doc!

JV_
09-25-2011, 12:54 PM
Kyle emphasized his preference for a high ready position with pistols—the front sight is nearly even with the eyes, with a slight upward cant to the barrel. He also emphasized a similar high position when reloading. Kyle also discussed the problems that can occur with a low ready, as well as compressed ready positions like SUL, particularly as related to LE/CQB/PSD use in tight quarters.


He is quite adamant that IWB/AIWB is the best way to carry in a truly concealed fashion.

Very interesting, and good to hear. I use the high ready (elevated muzzle), and my press-out/presentation involves passing through the high ready. I was just in a class, from a different instructor - but well known, where the high ready was regarded as bad for "CQC" (and so was AIWB).

It sounds like Kyle's methods would line up well with my preferred methods and would be worthwhile instruction for me.

Odin Bravo One
09-25-2011, 05:30 PM
I occasionally cross paths with people who occasionally perform CQC type missions. And if the high ready is a "BAD" for CQC, what would be considered "GOOD"? I only ask because I think these guys should know they are doing it wrong.

JV_
09-25-2011, 05:41 PM
I occasionally cross paths with people who occasionally perform CQC type missions. And if the high ready is a "BAD" for CQC, what would be considered "GOOD"? I only ask because I think these guys should know they are doing it wrong.

PM coming shortly.

JHC
09-25-2011, 05:43 PM
I think that is the best course AAR I've ever read. Thanks.

DocGKR
09-27-2011, 01:55 PM
Slide show with music chosen by Kyle Defoor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CaYaXLFwJI&feature=youtu.be.

theblacknight
12-11-2011, 12:13 AM
Down is the shit. Kyle has good taste