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iakdrago
09-15-2011, 10:45 PM
I found myself in a peculiar situation last night on the way home from work late ate night.

My gf's apartment is not in the best area, but it's cheap and is something that we can afford while i'm putting myself through law school. As i got out of the car i was on my phone (mistake #1). As i was walking towards the apartment building (about 50 yards) i heard footsteps behind me. Generally speaking i walk really fast, so when i heard that someone was walking as fast as me i got concerned and hung up my phone. As i increased my pace, the person following me began walking faster--it is at this time that i wish i had my gun on me. When i walked through the outside doors of my building i fumbled with my keys to get in--that's where my follower approached me. When he was about 5 yards away, i halted him with "is there a problem, and took up a fighting stance." The response was "You tell me is there a problem." A bunch more posturing etc went on.

By this time he is within 3 feet of me, i can see that his pupils are dilated, and can smell that he reeks of alcohol, and i'm desperately trying to determine if he has a knife or any other weapon hidden in his baggy clothing.. Here is where the choices come in:

Assuming that i did have a gun in such a situation, do i draw? If i do and he keeps coming at me to the range where there is now a chance that he can grab the gun--what do you do? Applying lethal force without knowing that the person has a weapon = jail time. Even though i have years of mma experience, that will go out the window in the case of a knife/gun etc. The fact that i'm standing in front of my gf door complicates things, because now i'm worried for her safety should there be reciprocation for me kicking some ass later.

This whole encounter rattled my approach to self defense. I've always trained for a hand to hand, or a weapon on weapon encounter--but in real life it is not always as clear cut, with some serious legal ramification if your judgement is wrong. Thoughts?

I'm sorry for the lengthy post.

seabiscuit
09-15-2011, 11:47 PM
3 feet is already close enough to grab your gun. Could you have simply let yourself in and locked the door behind you if you hadn't fumbled with your keys?

l8apex
09-16-2011, 12:58 AM
A lot of times experiences like this or 'close calls', accelerate thinking regarding scenarios that we should be prepared for. You've already identified a major issue, which was allowing your awareness level to be distracted by a phone call in a 'bad' neighborhood. My awareness level is always increased in questionable secure areas/locations. The OODA loop has always worked well for me. That is [observe, orient, decide, act].

Playing catch up greatly reduces ones chances for a favorable outcome when facing a legitimate threat. Fortunately this time you were able to de-escalate the situation. I'd recommend you attempt to get some intel on this person and find if he connected to you or your GF. Maybe a case of mistaken identity on his part, but the more you know the better.

It is always better to be able to de-escalate a situation rather than come to combat with hands, knife, or gun. Taking life to defend yours or a loved one should be a final option and not the first. However, that can only be accomplished with OODA. The earlier you are able to ID a threat, the more time you will have to orient and de-escalate if possible. Playing catch up reduces your options.

There are a lot of competent shooters on this forum, but with out the ability to ID threats, we are only 1/2 complete. Meaning we can't utilize our skill if needed, if we don't know when to use it. There isn't a shot timer that buzzes for us outside of the square range. YMMV.

Al T.
09-16-2011, 07:37 AM
South Narc's MUC - Managing Unknown Contacts - would make an excellent video for you to watch. It deals with exactly these sorts of issues.

We discussed something very similar here:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1217-Poor-situational-awareness-2-bad-guys-and-quot-Where-s-my-gun-quot

TGS
09-16-2011, 12:29 PM
It may have been the time to visibily put your hand on your gun(if you had it). Depends on where you live and their definition of brandishing, or how appropriate they consider it to be.

I personally would have had my hand visibly on my gun in the form of a master grip. In this course of action, you have the defense that he knew you had a gun, and any approach he made would then justify lethal force since you had reason to believe he was trying to take your gun from you in order to use it in a violent manner against you. However, you can't just go visibly establishing a master grip anytime someone asks you for the time of the day. for one, that'd just be paranoid and evidence that you shouldn't be around guns, and at least in Virginia you could definitely be brought up on brandishing charges. Your situation is different as I see it, since he was presenting himself as an aggressor.

I know what you feel like. Twice, I've established a master grip and was on the verge of drawing. Once in Florida about 9 months ago, once just this last weekend outside of Philly when someone tried to stop my car to attack me/carjack/mug/what-have-you. Both incidents I was in my vehicle, paying attention and can actually identify points where I escalated through Coopers' color codes. Still, it's a little nerve-wracking to know you were about to blast someone, or that there was harm to your life, and it's good you're concerned and questioning yourself in order to become more prepared.

TCinVA
09-16-2011, 12:56 PM
Thoughts?

If you react to a developing threat the instant you notice it...rather than waiting until you're cornered...you give yourself more options. The instant you believed someone was following you would have been the time to turn around and confront the person, challenging them and using the previously recommended MUC techniques. Doing the walk faster thing does not discourage bad guys who have selected you as prey...it confirms that you are prey.

Don't wait to see what will happen when you think a threat is developing...take proactive action right that instant to avoid or confront it. Making things happen on your schedule rather than waiting for the bad guy to spring the trap is almost always a better strategy.

iakdrago
09-16-2011, 01:16 PM
Thanks for everyone's responses, they are appreciated. I will deffenitely check out Southnarcs videos, they should help bridge the grey area. Too often practice, atleast my practice, centers around black or white, while we live in a grey world.

irishshooter
09-16-2011, 01:47 PM
South Narc's MUC - Managing Unknown Contacts - would make an excellent video for you to watch. It deals with exactly these sorts of issues.


+1 on this. great info. consider the dvd if you cant get to one of the live classes, its the next best thing.

mc1911
09-16-2011, 07:34 PM
"By this time he is within 3 feet of me, i can see that his pupils are dilated, and can smell that he reeks of alcohol, and i'm desperately trying to determine if he has a knife or any other weapon hidden in his baggy clothing."


At 3 feet it would be hard for him to get a weapon in play if you knocked him out. Just sayin'. I do understand not wanting to do that right in front of your door.

Chuck Haggard
09-16-2011, 11:27 PM
If you had simply not been on the phone, and thus distracted from an area scan while getting out of the car (or even before), this might not have happened at all.

Josh Runkle
09-17-2011, 02:31 AM
Not a good idea to lead someone to where you (or your girlfriend) live. Once you "noticed" something odd and went from yellow to orange, I would advocate changing course:
1) to give you more information to politely assess whether they're following you, or just on the same course/direction as you
2) to keep from leading someone bad to your home
3) changing course may give you a new vantage point on the person behind you, and you can take in more information

When you are unsure of a threat, radically change the location you are heading for and start walking in a different direction. Immediately. Even if you look like a wierdo.

Dagga Boy
09-17-2011, 01:57 PM
THe O/P got to see first hand a huge gap in most folks training. I tell people that in my experience, gunfights tend to be done at fist fight distance, and are often interwoven. The contact to 6 ft. range is what really ends up being where things happen, and they happen fast. The O/P also saw how difficult it is to make use of force decisions at this warp speed range. The reality is that you will often never see an opponent's weapon at this range, especially if it is a contact weapon (blade or impact). Reading what predators and criminals do when they are in attack mode is very difficult. SOuthnarc has done a very good job of teaching this. In the past, reacting to these kinds of threats was a very limited training realm, and was usually found only within L/E training circles.

I base most of my shooting stuff around being able to seamlessly flow into working within this range, even if techniques I use to do this are considered "sub-standard" or less efficient for shooting at longer ranges. It is where I put my priorities for my needs, others have different needs, priorities or opinions.

Some things that work very well in this range-movement and aggressive response are usually key as it tends to screw up the attackers "offensive" by making them become the one who has to react and adapt to what their "prey" is doing rather than the other way around. Of course situational awareness is another critical component, and many people today are operating in a state of being totally oblivious comfort. Crooks love this. The longer you have to do the "unexpected" the better. These situations are a good example where the actual "shooting" part is only a small percentage of the problem solving component.

David Armstrong
09-17-2011, 05:17 PM
Hopefully you now won't make these errors again. Put the phone away when walking. When you feel something is wrong don't corner yourself...if you move make it to a position that strengthens. Guns aren't always the answer, and it isn't always easy to figure out when to use the gun. Less lethal options can be friends. By the time you let a threat within bad breath distance of you you have already severely limited your options.

Should you have drawn if you had a gun? Don't really see how that would have helped much. What do you do when the guy laughs and says "you won't shoot me" and then continues to advance? The gun is now in the way of alternative responses, as you really don't have call to use it in that scene.

zRxz
09-18-2011, 05:34 PM
What I hope I would have done (based off of my understanding of MUC)...

Once somebody spooks me or becomes a blip on my radar, I quickly assess to see if they are possibly a genuine threat. The emphasis at this point is on the chance that they are scoping me out, concealing a weapon in either their hands or in their belt line, posturing for a fight, checking to see that we are remote from other humans, etc. Essentially, prepping their battlefield for the fight they are about to pick. I want to determine that I didn't notice them for myriad other reasons: they are out drunk and are more "sociable" than they would otherwise be; mistaking me for a friend; etc. I consciously keep away from "what if"ing the situation and performing the "wait and see", which allows an unknown contact to close distance on me while I orient myself mentally to him. If I do that, as the OP did, I both reduce my options and make a peaceful resolution less likely.

I would put up a fence. Hands up in a non-hostile but nevertheless defensive posture. It's sort of a gesticulation to "hey, dude, could you hold it right there/what's up?". It puts the ball back in his court, forcing him to deal with a now aware and defensive citizen who is still totally within the right. Plus (from what I've seen using this) you get a good barometer of what his intentions are. How he reacts to your posturing and requests can dictate your next course of action: he decides to jump you, you're 90% into a good stance from which you can move, throw a punch, dash; he wants to close on you, you can escalate; he holds and explains himself.

If he decides that he wants to carry through with whatever he had planned coming up on your six, you can match him with language. Raise your voice, cuss if you need to (don't call him anything, just add it for emphasis). This could be enough to have him go through his victim selection again and decide that he'd be paying too much to get what you got.

Notice how none of the above involves a handgun.

The last escalation you can make before drawing your piece is to establish a master grip (as others have posted). This displays three things: you're armed, you're aware of what he is about to commit to, you will be resisting it with lethal force. Aside from showing the perp that you mean business, this reduces draw time dramatically (you have cleared the concealing garment and can begin shooting in very quickly, if only with one hand). While a criminal may have the balls to take on an alert citizen, the presence of a gun could very well end everything without its use (don't count on it, though).

Just my two cents.