CQB range--Is there any advantage to 5.56 over 9MM?

[j.d.allen]

Of course at ranges past 25 yards a rifle would be preferable. But at CQB ranges, say inside a house, is there any advantage to using 5.56 over 9mm?

I don't really mean differences in the platform, I'm just talking terminal ballistics here. And I'm assuming use of good quality defensive ammo.

Thoughts?

[JHC]

Giant advantage to the 556. The terminal ballistics board here has big time data on that.

[Symmetry]

Giant advantage to the 556. The terminal ballistics board here has big time data on that.

+1

I put down a lot of game and I can yell you that a good .223 load is much more effective than a good 9mm load on white tail deer. .223 is not a lightning bolt on said game, but more effective than 9mm.

[breakingtime91]

I'll take a carbine any day. Especially when you start talking about really good carbine ammo (look at Docs list)

[Mr Pink]

According to this article, 556 penetration is less than 9mm and better suited for home defense:
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15:223-penetration-testing&catid=13:technical-info

[pablo]

Most pistol "defensive" ammo is pretty well tuned to run in 3-5" pistol barrels and shooting it out of longer barrels doesn't gain any sort of ballistic advantage. I wouldn't go out of my way to run a pistol caliber carbine for HD, the ammo isn't going to be any more effective than a pistol, and I would lose the size advantage of a pistol and the ability to run it one handed.

I'd take a 5.56 rifle with plain old 55gr FMJ's over a pistol caliber carbine, with the best defensive ammo, any day of the week.

Here's a good video to show some of the differences between the two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6noiXAFHAE8

[scw2]

If you're facing a home invasion wouldn't you likely be facing multiple bad guys? All else being equal just having a larger regular sized mag with almost 2x the capacity would probably be a good thing in that situation.

[Gray222]

If you are facing a situation where you may be fighting around a vehicle or barriers (doors/walls/tv's/etc) then 5.56 is the way to go. 55gr FMJ will eat a lot of barriers up and if they don't then green tips might do the trick.

9mm is also pretty ineffective at instantly stopping a person, 77gr OTM does the trick pretty well.

[Chuck Haggard]

While I have in fact seen 9mm rounds instantly disable a bad guy, on several occasions, the clear advantage goes to the 5.56 as you can get better incapacitation potential, and select loads that penetrate less than or the same as quality pistol duty ammo in tissue, while adding the ability to punch through soft body armor like it's not there, and having reduced downrange danger through building materials if you have a miss.

There is zero, I say again zero, reason to go with a 9mm PCC or SMG if you have a 5.56 weapon system available.

[j.d.allen]

If you're facing a home invasion wouldn't you likely be facing multiple bad guys? All else being equal just having a larger regular sized mag with almost 2x the capacity would probably be a good thing in that situation.

I can't argue with your logic here, however I live in the liberty loving :rolleyes: state of CA, and as such I am restricted to ten round magazines regardless of caliber or platform.

[breakingtime91]

I can't argue with your logic here, however I live in the liberty loving :rolleyes: state of CA, and as such I am restricted to ten round magazines regardless of caliber or platform.

I would go with a shotgun.

[pablo]

I can't argue with your logic here, however I live in the liberty loving :rolleyes: state of CA, and as such I am restricted to ten round magazines regardless of caliber or platform.

You can do a lot of good work with 10 rounds of 5.56, if you're aiming that's a lot of shooting. I'd never take a 10 round mag over a 30, but if I was limited to a rifle with 10 rounds I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It wouldn't be ideal, but having a 5.56 rifle in hand with 10 rounds is nothing to scoff at.

[Gray222]

I can't argue with your logic here, however I live in the liberty loving :rolleyes: state of CA, and as such I am restricted to ten round magazines regardless of caliber or platform.

May I then suggest a .338 federal sbr platform? http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?165452-338-Federal-AR-10-8-quot-SBR-Project (if link violates forum policy, please delete)

[SLG]

CA platform issues aside, 10 rds of 5.56 is always better than 10 rds of a pistol caliber. Maybe not when you look at the totality, but I can't speak to the crazy restrictions former Americans deal with when stuck behind the curtain.

[Symmetry]

I would go with a shotgun.

+!

Particularly when dealing with likely scenarios and engagement ranges(legally justifiable ranges as well), the shotgun is probably the most ideal civilian defensive weapon. AND, as long as it isn't a super tactical config, it is less likely to draw a negative opinion from 12 jury members of your peers when it comes time to go to court.

[45dotACP]

What's the general consensus on something like a 450 or 50 Beowulf?

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[Symmetry]

What's the general consensus on something like a 450 or 50 Beowulf?

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I know an officer who hunts with a .458 SOCOM. Ballistically it is basically just a .45-70 in a more modernized cartridge for semi auto use. So, yeah it definitely causes more trauma, but you will need high capacity AR mags to run anything more than 5rds in the mag. I would only use it for hunting or dangerous game self defense.

[Unobtanium]

I can't argue with your logic here, however I live in the liberty loving :rolleyes: state of CA, and as such I am restricted to ten round magazines regardless of caliber or platform.

I'd have a hard time arguing against a 12ga semi-auto like the M1014 or 1301 in that state if 10 round mags apply to ALL platforms. Why not launch 1oz of hate if 10 is all I can get?

[Luke]

Would 12g be a poor choice for indoors? Unless you lived alone far away from neighbors?

[ssb]

Would 12g be a poor choice for indoors? Unless you lived alone far away from neighbors?

From watching a real live ND with #1B in an apartment, I'm not sure how concerned I'd be. The buckshot in this case punched through one layer of drywall, passed through insulation and through a layer of siding, and embedded itself into a second layer of siding about four yards away. The pellets were less than 1cm deep in said siding.

It's a concern, but from watching that, I can't say I walked away with the impression that it'd zip straight through the exterior of the home and into the local personal injury lawyer's club.

[Chuck Haggard]

In California I'd go with the shotgun as well

[pablo]

Would 12g be a poor choice for indoors? Unless you lived alone far away from neighbors?

Shotguns are one of the safer options IMO. Back when we had slug guns in patrol, we had this really amazing streak going with bad guys (and dogs and a bull) getting zapped in one round shootings with no misses, that was 17 or 18 shootings over ten years. Statistically those were the safest guns we have ever carried, it's misses that are really dangerous. The platform that can be expected to stop a bad guy with the least number of rounds fired, has the fewest chances of missed shots and is going to be safest overall. If the shooter does his part, not many people need to be shot more than once with a shotgun.

As long as you're not shooting slugs designed for deep penetration (Fed DPRS, Brenekes, Rottweils, Sabots, etc) it's really not as big of an issue as people make it out to be.

[Gray222]

Anyone here ever done cqb with an 870?

It blows, it also sucks for the team you are with since it sprays, even if you are shooting slug.

Good for solo hallway work without a stock.

It is really difficult to beat a sub 10 inch 556 gun in any type of cqb. Throw a suppressor oor a pws cqb on it and you have yourself a viable tool for inside work.

[LSP972]

Anyone here ever done cqb with an 870?

It blows, it also sucks for the team you are with since it sprays, even if you are shooting slug.

.

Yes; quite a bit, as a matter of fact. Until we got 6520s in 1994, the majority of our three SWAT platoons used 14" 870s, the exceptions being the squirt gunners and the odd guy with his own personal carbine.

Sprays what?

.

[Chuck Haggard]

"Sprays"? You'll have to explain that one to me.


My experience with indoor work with 870s and 590s, in the 14-18" barrel range, is significantly different, in my experience it's a fine tool for indoor work, especially the shorties. I've done hundreds of entries into and through other people's houses, and hundreds of shoot-house runs, armed with a shotgun. I like them, a lot, and if the potential for hostage rescue work wasn't part of the job description I'd take a short gauge over a carbine any day of the week just for the better wound ballistics.

Pistol grip only shotguns are a bad idea across the board, with the exception of a dedicated breaching gun.

Anyway, home defense use of a shotgun is not the same as CQB

[LSP552]

Anyone here ever done cqb with an 870?

It blows, it also sucks for the team you are with since it sprays, even if you are shooting slug.

Good for solo hallway work without a stock.

It is really difficult to beat a sub 10 inch 556 gun in any type of cqb. Throw a suppressor oor a pws cqb on it and you have yourself a viable tool for inside work.

There are few tools better suited for non-hostage CQB than a 14" 870 with SureFire light. And yes, we have shot/seen shot 18 wheeler loads of shells on the square range and in shoothouses. I can't count the number of entries made using them by LSP SWAT over the years. Working with about 60+ of these, I've never seen one that wouldn't keep an entire load of buckshot in the chest at indoor ranges.

I don't think the shotgun is the perfect general issue police long gun. But is is a fine non-hostage CQB tool for law enforcement entry work. Do I prefer 14" 870 to a carbine for entry work? No, not personally. But that's a personal preference not an indictment of the tool.

It's a great home defense option as well.

[Gray222]

A 14inch is nice, we have m590s that are short, they work well, still suck for room work.

By spray I meant muzzle blast. Ive had birdcaged AR's go off near me and I wasnt happy with it. I had a shotgun go off and I was more in front of the barrel line (off angle) and that really sucked. It was slug but I still got sprayed.

My point was that for the average person getting a 14inch shotgun may be more investment then desired.

Edit; never mentioned it for entries and was specifically referring to the context of a non-LEO, home defense / defensive use type of situation.

[TGS]

Edit; never mentioned it for entries and was specifically referring to the context of a non-LEO, home defense / defensive use type of situation.

When you use the words "CQB" and "team," I do believe most people are going to assess that as talking about LE/entries.

[HCM]

The OP mentioned he is in CA so niether SBR's nor SBS's are an option for him.

I've found our 14" 870's work just fine inside houses. The biggest issue for us is we have so few people who really can run them properly. We are running the 13" LOP SpeedFeed pistol grip stock. You can short stock the gun either over the shoulder or under the armpit for tight spaces and it works quite well.

[GJM]

An 18.5 inch Benelli M2 is 7+1 rounds of love in a reasonable size package, that requires no NFA paperwork, and can be run by a person without pump experience.

[breakingtime91]

what is the shotgun law in california? Are semi autos fine?

[j.d.allen]

Yes semi-auto scatter-guns are fine. In fact they're pretty popular with some duck hunters. There actually aren't many restrictions on shotguns other than no NFA stuff allowed. Oh, and the Taurus Judge is banned because it's classified as a SBS.

[breakingtime91]

Yes semi-auto scatter-guns are fine. In fact they're pretty popular with some duck hunters. There actually aren't many restrictions on shotguns other than no NFA stuff allowed. Oh, and the Taurus Judge is banned because it's classified as a SBS.

lol good, no one needs that pos anyway.

[Gray222]

When you use the words "CQB" and "team," I do believe most people are going to assess that as talking about LE/entries.

I was speaking from first hand experience so they would be correct, except for the clear reason for the post being the context of the thread.

[LSP972]

By spray I meant muzzle blast. Ive had birdcaged AR's go off near me and I wasnt happy with it. I had a shotgun go off and I was more in front of the barrel line (off angle) and that really sucked. It was slug but I still got sprayed.

.

Again... sprayed with WHAT? Blast/concussion? Pieces of wadding? Shot buffer granules?

As LSP552 noted, we used shotguns for a long time, and in literally thousands of runs through various shoot houses (using both 00B and slug), I don't recall ever hearing any of the troops complain about this.

What brand ammunition was this?

And in the context of the thread, most HD situations will be a home-owner working alone, yes? So, sorry... I still don't get what you are talking about.

.

[Gray222]

Again... sprayed with WHAT? Blast/concussion? Pieces of wadding? Shot buffer granules?

As LSP552 noted, we used shotguns for a long time, and in literally thousands of runs through various shoot houses (using both 00B and slug), I don't recall ever hearing any of the troops complain about this.

What brand ammunition was this?

And in the context of the thread, most HD situations will be a home-owner working alone, yes? So, sorry... I still don't get what you are talking about.

.

How many of those times were you standing more in front of the muzzle than behind? Not directly, but on an angle, you are going to get bits of whatever doesnt fly straight out of the shotgun, from an AR you get concussion due to the muzzle device.

Are we talking about a solo home owner in a home defense scenario? I thought we were talking about 25y and in, which could cover various situations/scenarios.

I was specifically making an example that if someone wants to use a shotgun in those distances, especially with other people around that dont need to be shot, a shotgun may not be the right application.

As for brand of ammo, I know its federal 12g slug, I dont remember the specifics other than that.

[pablo]

In terms of noise and intensity of muzzle blast an unsuppressed 10" AR is one of the worst guns that I have ever shot indoors. A 14-18" shotgun indoors with magnum buckshot is minor leagues compared to a short barrel AR*.

Putting a can on a 10" AR helps with the muzzle blast, but the blowback is pretty bad, even on a piston gun. I'm not sure how realistic wrap around eye pro is when waking up from a deep sleep for that bump in the night. If you have time for PPE, putting on electronic ear pro shouldn't be an issue either. I'd much rather deal with screwed up hearing down the road, then get blinded by gas blowback.

Are Mini-14's still California legal? They might not be the coolest thing out there but a plain old Mini-14, a couple of extra mags on a buttstock carrier, with a light clamped to the barrel would be a serious HD gun.

*edited: YMMV "muzzle blast" is subjective.........

[GJM]

I find 14 inch shotguns significantly more painful to shoot with ear pro, hearing wise, because the muzzle is that much closer to my ear. I replaced Vang barrels on my 14 inch 870 shotguns, to get rid of the porting, which made it even worse.

[Clusterfrack]

What about a Tavor?

[j.d.allen]

To be fair, I guess I should clarify. My understanding of CQB is any type of engagement inside of 25 yards or so, whether it be between military combatants, LE, or just plain jane civilians.

I'm not a member of the military nor am I LE (which is why I am subject to magazine capacity restrictions) so my idea of CQB would be more of a civilian home defense scenario, or perhaps even a riot/civil disorder scenario that occurs at these ranges. If that is an improper use of the acronym, I apologize. But I sure didn't mean to restrict the discussion to that type of scenario...

However my question was really just from a ballistics standpoint, what is the advantage of 5.56 over 9mm? And to further explain, both of those calibers with well designed defensive/duty ammunition are going to perform within the 12-18 inch penetration range and expand to somewhere between .40 and .60 (except in the case of fragmenting 5.56 ammo)

So what is it that gives a carbine caliber an advantage over a pistol caliber at these ranges? Is it the temporary stretch cavity that a rifle round produces? A shotgun round is obviously ballistically superior to either one, but I was really curious as to the difference between the two calibers I mentioned because they are the ones I use principally.

[GJM]

FIFY


However my question was really just from a ballistics standpoint, what is the advantage of 5.56 over 9mm? And to further explain, both of those calibers with well designed defensive/duty ammunition are (going) DESIGNED to perform within the 12-18 inch penetration range and expand to somewhere between .40 and .60 (except in the case of fragmenting 5.56 ammo)

[LSP972]

How many of those times were you standing more in front of the muzzle than behind?

More than a few.

And brother Allen clarified what he was asking about… which we are muddying up with all the shotgun discussion.

.

[Stone]

"So what is it that gives a carbine caliber an advantage over a pistol caliber at these ranges?"

The only reason I carry a pistol is because its just not practical to carry my rifle on me 24-7. In almost every SD situation I would choose my rifle over my pistol. But to answer your question the 556 has 2-3 times the Velocity in Feet Per Seconds and 3 times the energy in foot pounds as compared to the 9mm(this is a generalized average) I suppose an analogy works well. Think of a head on collision in a car at 20mph, with seat belts on there will be minor injury's and you would probably walk away. Now triple that, a head on collision at 60 mph. Game over...

[Chuck Haggard]

The 5.56 adds significant temp cavity to the equation.

Example; even though it's not on Doc's list, at my old job the last person we shot with the 60gr TAP before we switched loads to something better was hit on the left side just below the diaphragm, the attending surgeon described the wound as "the size of a nerf football". Pistol bullets do not make holes like that.

[JDB]

So what is it that gives a carbine caliber an advantage over a pistol caliber at these ranges? Is it the temporary stretch cavity that a rifle round produces? A shotgun round is obviously ballistically superior to either one, but I was really curious as to the difference between the two calibers I mentioned because they are the ones I use principally.

I think its more that the "temporary stretch" cavity is more of a "permanent tear" cavity. Though there's probably more temporary stretch cavity too, but not sure how much, if any real damage the temp cavity does.

Pistol bullets punch holes, rifles bullets tear S!@# up. Or so I've heard.

[Kukuforguns]

Think of a head on collision in a car at 20mph, with seat belts on there will be minor injury's and you would probably walk away. Now triple that, a head on collision at 60 mph. Game over...
Personal experience suggests the 60 mph situation can have better outcomes (and this was shortly before airbags). My parents didn't walk away, but they're still here. Modern cars are truly marvels.

[Stone]

Glad to hear they are alright. My experience was quite the contrary...

[Kukuforguns]

Glad to hear they are alright. My experience was quite the contrary...

Crap. I'm sorry.

[Symmetry]

To be fair, I guess I should clarify. My understanding of CQB is any type of engagement inside of 25 yards or so, whether it be between military combatants, LE, or just plain jane civilians.

I'm not a member of the military nor am I LE (which is why I am subject to magazine capacity restrictions) so my idea of CQB would be more of a civilian home defense scenario, or perhaps even a riot/civil disorder scenario that occurs at these ranges. If that is an improper use of the acronym, I apologize. But I sure didn't mean to restrict the discussion to that type of scenario...

However my question was really just from a ballistics standpoint, what is the advantage of 5.56 over 9mm? And to further explain, both of those calibers with well designed defensive/duty ammunition are going to perform within the 12-18 inch penetration range and expand to somewhere between .40 and .60 (except in the case of fragmenting 5.56 ammo)

So what is it that gives a carbine caliber an advantage over a pistol caliber at these ranges? Is it the temporary stretch cavity that a rifle round produces? A shotgun round is obviously ballistically superior to either one, but I was really curious as to the difference between the two calibers I mentioned because they are the ones I use principally.

[Symmetry]

I guess my post didn't show up on that last one....... As others have said, the TC on a .223 is considerable to the point that it tears tissue surrounding the permanent wound cavity. The regular service calibers fired from pistol length barrels are not capable of doing this, as has been observed by surgeons and medical examiners for decades.

A 12 gauge shotgun generally relies on the large scale physical trauma it causes through permanent crush cavity. For instance, #1 Buckshot fires fifteen .30" pellets. A submachine gun works on the same principle as the shotgun........lots of hits in a short period of time. The problem with both the shotgun and the SMG is that as ranges increase it becomes more difficult to inflict large levels of physical trauma as the shotgun's shot pattern gets too large, and it becomes too difficult to use the SMG in full auto and score multi hits.