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zeroflux
09-07-2015, 03:11 PM
So I am reading in the IDPA Rule Book that "Targets may be covered with clothing as desired" but don't recall ever seeing this in IDPA match videos or any of the few matches I have shot? 4.10 does specify that the material has to be lightweight and I wondering if the shirt, t-shirt (sweatshirt?) would need to be changed out a few times during the match and perhaps should be identical?

I actually like the idea from a realism perspective if the clothing does in fact minimize or completely eliminate the visual confirmation of hits on the targets, which could add an interesting dimension if deployed in conjunction with a limited stage? I suspect that dark material would perhaps be more effective at masking the hits, especially if the target is at some distance?

JAD
09-07-2015, 03:57 PM
We ran clothed targets in exclusion at the Kansas City Indoor, when that was a thing. They do have to be changed some, not because of shirt wear but because they significantly enlarge the hole so you need new cardboard more often. We were running them mostly on McCaig poppers so they got shot a lot by most shooters :). Making them identical is what I would have called gamer bullshit back in those days.

BN
09-07-2015, 04:00 PM
Shirts on targets used to happen a lot. The worst problem is scoring and pasting. You have to fold back the shirt to score and then paste with the shirt trying to fall back over the target. Sometimes the shirt would bend the head of the target when it was folded back. The holes weren't as precise in the targets after going through the shirt. Sometimes, with several people pasting, holes would get missed when the shirt would fall back over the target and the pasters would think the target had already been pasted.

Shirts are fun for shooting, but a pain to administer in a match. It increases the time for resetting a stage.

Usually hits were lower on the target with shirts. Dark colored shirts would usually last for a complete local match. Light colored shirts would develop a pattern of shots, but they would usually be low enough that the next shooters shouldn't rely on them for a spot to shoot.

One of the good ways to set up for shirts on targets was to have the wood uprights of the target stand be higher than the head of the target. Then staple one thickness of shirt on to the upright at the shoulders. The uprights would keep the head from bending over when the shirt was folded back for scoring. For scoring, have one person go through folding the shirts back, then the SO comes through scoring, then the pasters come through pasting and folding the shirts back. It's a lot of work.

voodoo_man
09-07-2015, 04:07 PM
Ive run 3d clothed targets in shoot houses before - basically 2 idpa backers with a third xut up to make the sides, roughly 3-4 inches
Then put a shirt on. Shows you bullet path and makes for good angle work on doors and corners.

zeroflux
09-07-2015, 04:59 PM
Bill or JAD, are there videos on YouTube or Vimeo of those matches? Curious to see what the set up looked like?

EricP
09-07-2015, 05:20 PM
In the couple of matches I've shot that had t-shirted targets, they always seemed to be treated like hard cover. Whole squads would be shooting for the head on targets out to 15 yards. I don't know if it was the inability to visually account for hits or what.

I've also had the same problems as Bill. Targets not getting pasted. Another problem was the shirt tearing pastors off the target when the shirt was slid back down over the target.

BN
09-07-2015, 05:55 PM
Bill or JAD, are there videos on YouTube or Vimeo of those matches? Curious to see what the set up looked like?

I haven't seen it done for several years. When I remember it done, there wasn't as much video done as there is now. I did a couple of YouTube searches and didn't find anything.

One year (2000?) at the IDPA Nationals they had a shirted target in front of the shoot target and it folded down to score. I only saw it once. The IDPA Nationals had shirts often in the early days.

Sometimes they would just slide a T-Shirt over the head of a target, just like dressing it. It was even harder to score, because you had to slide the shirt up to score every time.

Shirts are really cool on something like the Reed Reactive Target http://www.parmarng.org/freeidaho/AlSkDjFhG/index.html This is a reactive target with steel plates behind the down zero zones and only hits in the down zero will knock down the target. Go to the left of the page and scroll down for Reed Reactive Target info.

nycnoob
09-07-2015, 06:56 PM
Shirts are really cool on something like the Reed Reactive Target http://www.parmarng.org/freeidaho/AlSkDjFhG/index.html This is a reactive target with steel plates behind the down zero zones and only hits in the down zero will knock down the target. Go to the left of the page and scroll down for Reed Reactive Target info.

John Hearne has something similar which Tom Givens uses at his tactical conference


http://www.dvctargets.com/

abu fitna
09-07-2015, 06:57 PM
Bill ran a few matches out at peacemaker that had clothed targets. Worth the experience, but does slow down stage resets.

PPGMD
09-07-2015, 07:57 PM
I did a club match with clothed targets for one stage.

It was a pain to score, and the shirt didn't always fall the same, or sit the same on the target. So you can shoot the shirt in the exact same place it would be zero down for one person, and then -1 for the next.

IMO cool to play around for a club match, but aren't consistent enough for a major match.

rob_s
09-07-2015, 08:32 PM
Agree with above, used to be done a lot more, and pain to score.

We used to slice them up the sides to make them into a poncho, which greatly aids scoring.

TR675
09-07-2015, 09:44 PM
John Hearne has something similar which Tom Givens uses at his tactical conference


http://www.dvctargets.com/

Johns targets are great for shirts - they're reactive so no scoring needed, and the shirts add an extra level of challenge to the match. I've always enjoyed Rangemaster's matches and Johns targets are a good bit if the reason.

ST911
09-07-2015, 10:39 PM
Shirts on targets used to happen a lot. The worst problem is scoring and pasting. You have to fold back the shirt to score and then paste with the shirt trying to fall back over the target. Sometimes the shirt would bend the head of the target when it was folded back. The holes weren't as precise in the targets after going through the shirt. Sometimes, with several people pasting, holes would get missed when the shirt would fall back over the target and the pasters would think the target had already been pasted.

Shirts are fun for shooting, but a pain to administer in a match. It increases the time for resetting a stage.

Infrequent use here, but same experiences.


We used to slice them up the sides to make them into a poncho, which greatly aids scoring.

Thanks, I'll pass that to my MDs and try it.

Peally
09-08-2015, 08:43 AM
You see it once in a while. Usually it's to simulate body armor or something and force two shots anywhere in the chest and one in the head or some such thing.

Glenn E. Meyer
09-08-2015, 09:28 AM
Same experience, it was fun once in awhile. One variant was a target with the center circle cut out, t-shirt over it and you had to shoot from close retention. It was easy to see if one missed the center and pasting wasn't a problem.

The 3D reactive targets like John's are fun.

NEPAKevin
09-08-2015, 10:01 AM
We used t-shirts mostly on close targets where the center of mass/down zero is cut out and on Reed Reactors. For paper targets, if you cut the shirt in half, i.e. front and back. you can then staple the shoulders to the sticks, then to score, you check the head and neck, flip the shirt over for the body, then the pasters reverse procedure to "reset." For the reactors, when ever possible, I like to use a long sleeve shirt and slide it over the paper target. Then when it goes down, the arms will often fluttter much to the amusement of some.

cclaxton
09-08-2015, 10:08 AM
I have found that cutting the shirt along both sides and using steel binder clamps at the shoulders makes it much easier to score. You really don't even need the back of the shirt. Also, I often paint hard cover on the heads to force shots to the body to challenge the shooter. Also, it's a good idea to turn the T-shirt logos to the inside, so that no one might think badly of the company/message printed on them.

Thanks,
Cody

Peally
09-08-2015, 10:18 AM
I've never seen hits under a shirt scored aside from hit/miss. If you can't physically see the target you're pretty much just guessing where the -0 circle is.

PPGMD
09-08-2015, 11:05 AM
I've never seen hits under a shirt scored aside from hit/miss. If you can't physically see the target you're pretty much just guessing where the -0 circle is.

Which IMO is the only way to do it with any consistency. Honestly gimmicks like that have no place at a major match where the scores actually matter.

Peally
09-08-2015, 11:34 AM
I'm guessing it's club matches, and I'd probably complain like I do about everything but I'd still shoot it. At a major that shouldn't fly (although things like that still occasionally do).

cclaxton
09-08-2015, 12:32 PM
Which IMO is the only way to do it with any consistency. Honestly gimmicks like that have no place at a major match where the scores actually matter.
It would certainly be legal under the rules to use T-Shirts. I think the key is consistency: Using the same size/type/color of T-Shirt, and replacing it when it gets torn/mis-shaped or worn out like you would with any target. Philosophically I am not opposed to using them in any sanctioned match.
Cody

Peally
09-08-2015, 12:41 PM
I don't think there'd be any issue with getting a stage like that approved by IDPA for a major, but a lot of higher-ish end shooters (myself shamelessly included) are going see that as a test of luck or educated guesstimating and not pure skill. I really don't mind that at a club match since I'm there for giggles but if I went to an IDPA major with scored t-shirt targets I'd be sitting there with a WTF look on my face.

Odd things like this are unfortunately one of many reasons WI state is the only IDPA major I'll ever attend again, and that's largely since it's local to me. Of course, I have different desires and goals from a competition and others may think I'm an asshat and t-shirts are totally fine, and if that floats someone's boat I can't argue.

PPGMD
09-08-2015, 03:12 PM
It would certainly be legal under the rules to use T-Shirts. I think the key is consistency: Using the same size/type/color of T-Shirt, and replacing it when it gets torn/mis-shaped or worn out like you would with any target. Philosophically I am not opposed to using them in any sanctioned match.

There is a lot of stuff legal under the rules that aren't done at major matches due to consistency issues.

With random people lifting it up, and clipping it down in place. It is never going to be consistent target to target, and run to run. Now I suppose the RO can come by and inspect each one, but then you are adding staff and time for each reset. But that hardly seems worth it for such a minor gimmick.

Gimmicks are fun every once in a while at your average club match. But once they get in the way of winning trophies (and/or prizes in other shooting sports), the fun wears off.

BN
09-08-2015, 03:41 PM
Using a shirt with a logo on it that was just a little below the down zero was amusing. :)

NEPAKevin
09-08-2015, 04:10 PM
If you can't physically see the target you're pretty much just guessing where the -0 circle is.

Gaming t-shirts 101: Use the head to center and the top of the down zero is at the lower shoulder cuts.

rob_s
09-08-2015, 08:20 PM
Gaming t-shirts 101: Use the head to center and the top of the down zero is at the lower shoulder cuts.

Christ, I was wondering when someone would come along and point this out.

HopetonBrown
09-12-2015, 05:00 AM
Did a lot of clothed targets in Louis Awerbuck classes. He suggested using the neck as an index; think of it as a pole that runs through the body and aim for that.

JAD
09-12-2015, 08:18 AM
I do not recall much video being shot at the KC Indoors, this was back when that was a vhs proposition. The McCaig targets I mentioned are much like John's. What the McCaig ultimately taught you was that the appropriate target is really the spine or the head. The t shirts reinforced that, and I think that was a good thing.

zeroflux
10-10-2015, 09:07 AM
Finally finished the video from the September Match with the Clothed Targets


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpzdrw460wA