Portsmouth VA LEO charged with 1st degree murder

[LittleLebowski]

This seems like a textbook railroading of this cop. I am disgusted. He has been fired and charged with first degree murder.

Note the headline wording from the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/09/04/white-portsmouth-va-cop-charged-with-murder-in-killing-of-black-alleged-wal-mart-shoplifter/).


White Portsmouth, Va., cop charged with murder in killing of black alleged Wal-Mart shoplifter


A grand jury has charged a white Portsmouth, Va., police officer with first degree murder in connection with the killing of an 18-year old African American man who was suspected of shoplifting at a Wal-Mart.

A local paper (http://hamptonroads.com/2015/04/man-shot-and-killed-police-portsmouth-walmart) has some troubling facts (for the biased town councilman):


A construction crew worked to build a Wawa gas station near the Wal-Mart. Leroy Woodman, 27, who was working for Scorpion Steel of Delaware, said he and a co-worker were on top of the Wawa structure when they saw the police officer and a man.

The officer had the man against a car and appeared to be trying to put handcuffs on him, Woodman said.

"He and the officer started tussling," Woodman said. The officer pulled out his stun gun. Woodman said he could not see whether the officer shocked the man. The man knocked the stun gun out of the officer's hand.

"The officer pulled his gun and stepped back," Woodman said. "You could tell they were talking."

Woodman could not hear what they were saying over the work site's machines and trucks.

Then, Woodman said, the man charged the officer, who fired.

"As soon as the guy dropped, the officer put his gun away and dropped to the ground to give him CPR," Woodman said.

But facts won't sway the councilman!


Councilman Mark Whitaker (http://www.portsmouthva.gov/council/whitaker.aspx) called the shooting of the 18-year-old, who was black, a tragedy in the community, like other police shootings across the nation.

"Black males are being killed and it's a tragedy," he said. "We have bankers, businessmen who rob people of their homes, their pensions and we don't see any of them have their lives taken.... They're not being killed. Neither deserve death."

[JM Campbell]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

There are witnesses describing how the suspect tussled with the cop, knocked the Tazer out of the cops' hand, and then charged the cop.

If it's this bad for LEOs with a protected underclass that you literally cannot defend yourself against when they are assaulting you, it's going to be worse for Joe Civilian protecting his home/family. Think about it.

[JM Campbell]

Agreed 100% with you LL.
I truly hope the officer has a great legal team to assist him.

No word on a body cam?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

There are witnesses describing how the suspect tussled with the cop, knocked the Tazer out of the cops' hand, and then charged the cop.

If it's this bad for LEOs with a protected underclass that you literally cannot defend yourself against when they are assaulting you, it's going to be worse for Joe Civilian protecting his home/family. Think about it.

I've already thought about it and it's not heartening. Shoot an "unarmed teenager" who has 30 years and 30 pounds on you and the headlines will be the same minus "cop".

[Alpha Sierra]

it's going to be worse for Joe Civilian protecting his home/family.
The worst thing one can do is let those considerations enter the mind now to affect one's decisions later.

[LittleLebowski]

Agreed 100% with you LL.
I truly hope the officer has a great legal team to assist him.

No word on a body cam?


No cam. The cop has been fired and charged with 1st degree murder despite the witnesses. Despite the witnesses.

I am bereft of words at this.

[LittleLebowski]

The worst thing one can do is let those considerations enter the mind now to affect one's decisions later.

Probably so but any informed LEO or citizen will almost certainly consider (perhaps not during the time of the altercation) whether or not taking a beating would be better. Of course, any rational person would also worry about the consequences of just one wrong blow to the head - coma, paralysis, et cetera.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/us/alabama-birmingham-police-detective-pistol-whipped/

[LittleLebowski]

I've already thought about it and it's not heartening. Shoot an "unarmed teenager" who has 30 years and 30 pounds on you and the headlines will be the same minus "cop".

And your finances, your job, your life will be ruined. Your social media postings will be scrutinized. People will spend time digging up dirt about you. People will protest over you defending yourself. It will literally be headline news while the media ignores Chicago.

[jh9]

When Chapman’s body was taken to the medical examiner his hands were cuffed behind his back, however. And according to the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot, a medical examiner’s report showed “no evidence of close range fire” by the officer.

That seems to change the tone some. If he was already in handcuffs then shot in the chest at any measurable distance that makes the shooting look much worse.

[Alpha Sierra]

That seems to change the tone some. If he was already in handcuffs then shot in the chest at any measurable distance that makes the shooting look much worse.
Is it likely he handcuffed the guy after he shot him?

I'm also not going to take an ME's definition of "close range" fire with any sort of credibility considering the lynching atmosphere surrounding this case

[TGS]

That seems to change the tone some. If he was already in handcuffs then shot in the chest at any measurable distance that makes the shooting look much worse.

Why would you assume that to mean the cop shot him while handcuffed?

WTF do you think most cops do after they subdue someone? They put cuffs on them. Including people who are shot.

[voodoo_man]

Seems that the political advantage goes to the left and the councilmen who had something to say about it, the scapegoat is the officer who followed the use of force guidelines to a T.

Once he's exonerated in court, same councilmen will say its a travesty of justice or some-such.

[LittleLebowski]

Is it likely he handcuffed the guy after he shot him?

I'm also not going to take an ME's definition of "close range" fire with any sort of credibility considering the lynching atmosphere surrounding this case

Concur on all.

[jh9]

Is it likely he handcuffed the guy after he shot him?

It isn't stated in the article I haven't seen a police report with the details yet. Is it common for dead bodies to show up at the medical examiner's office still handcuffed?

(I'm asking. I honestly don't know.)


I'm also not going to take an ME's definition of "close range" fire with any sort of credibility considering the lynching atmosphere surrounding this case

I would think if there was something obvious indicating "close range" like powder burns it would have been mentioned in the report. The article is a biased source so it's possible they just omitted it to sell ad impressions. It's possible the officer in question has pissed off the wrong people in the past and they were waiting for an excuse to fire him. I guess nobody will know until more details are released.

[Jeep]

That seems to change the tone some. If he was already in handcuffs then shot in the chest at any measurable distance that makes the shooting look much worse.

Unless he was handcuffed after he was shot.

[jh9]

Unless he was handcuffed after he was shot.

Which has been said by three people now...

[voodoo_man]

Handcuffing after a shooting is standard procedure.

[GardoneVT]

White alone, percent population 2013 : 41.9%
Black or African American alone, percent population 2013: 53.5%


The US Census Bureau's statistics (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/51/51740.html) for Portmouth City VA neatly explains the former officer's treatment. RacePimping in many cities is defacto public policy, and woe betide any city employee who values truth over coddling the "My Twenty Time Arrest Son was an Angel!" crowd.

[LittleLebowski]

Out on a $75K bond. Officer had to surrender all of his personal firearms. The Second Amendment can be taken away absence of a court finding of guilty or innocent.

http://wtkr.com/2015/09/04/portsmouth-police-officer-charged-with-murder-granted-75000-bond/

[HCM]

Handcuffing after a shooting is standard procedure.

This ^^^^. We are taught will handcuff anyone you have shot. You would definitely handcuff them before attempting to render aid if you choose to do so. In this case it appears attempts to render aid were unsuccessful so at that point you leave everything "as is " Standard evidence/crime scene preservation procedures. The body arriving at the Medical Examiner's Office still in handcuffs is not an indication of anything untoward, in fact just the opposite.

[dbateman]

This seems like a textbook railroading of this cop.

Thats what it looks like from where I am sitting.

[HCM]

Out on a $75K bond. Officer had to surrender all of his personal firearms. The Second Amendment can be taken away absence of a court finding of guilty or innocent.

http://wtkr.com/2015/09/04/portsmouth-police-officer-charged-with-murder-granted-75000-bond/

Is this allowed under Virginia state law? Federal law prevents a person facing felony charges from purchasing firearms or ammunition but it does not prevent their possession unless convicted. It is common for judges to impose additional conditions as part of bond to address flight risk or public safety concerns such as surrendering ones passport. It may be BS, but bonding out and then filing an appeal of the bond requirement tosurrender firearms is the smart way to go.

[GardoneVT]

Is this allowed under Virginia state law? Federal law prevents a person facing felony charges from purchasing firearms or ammunition but it does not prevent their possession unless convicted. It is common for judges to impose additional conditions as part of bond to address flight risk or public safety concerns such as surrendering ones passport. It may be BS, but bonding out and then filing an appeal of the bond requirement tosurrender firearms is the smart way to go.

Looks like it was a condition of his bond.

Sadly even if the DA drops charges tomorrow he's done for. The media's gavel has already fallen no matter what the court says. Whatever job he finds after this mess will need to be far away from Portsmouth VA, both physically and conceptually.

[breakingtime91]

I was really considering trying to start a career in law enforcement a year ago... Now I'm not so sure..

[Alpha Sierra]

Someone needs to slip him a drop piece on the side

[TGS]

Someone needs to slip him a drop piece on the side

A drop piece? For what purpose?

Anyone else and I might think something different, but given your rabidly anti-LE emotion based attitude where cops can't sneeze without being a jack-booted pig in your eyes, I really hope you're not eluding to what I think you are.

[Dagga Boy]

Handcuffing after a shooting is standard procedure.

I may hold some kind of record at my place for cuffing shot people. The key to an SOP is it is something you ALWAYS do. I don't care if their head was missing, no Paramedic ever worked on a shot by LE suspect if I was there without that person being cuffed. That is for everyone's safety. Those cuffs only came off at the demand of senior medical personnel and it was with consultation on security (like keeping at least one arm or both cuffed to gurney's. It is weird to have them sent to the morgue with cuffs on and I have not seen this. It doesn't mean it isn't right, it is just different because we had Investigators from the Coroner's office come to the scene or hospital and the cuffs were removed and returned by them if they were still on.

[voodoo_man]

I may hold some kind of record at my place for cuffing shot people. The key to an SOP is it is something you ALWAYS do. I don't care if their head was missing, no Paramedic ever worked on a shot by LE suspect if I was there without that person being cuffed. That is for everyone's safety. Those cuffs only came off at the demand of senior medical personnel and it was with consultation on security (like keeping at least one arm or both cuffed to gurney's. It is weird to have them sent to the morgue with cuffs on and I have not seen this. It doesn't mean it isn't right, it is just different because we had Investigators from the Coroner's office come to the scene or hospital and the cuffs were removed and returned by them if they were still on.

The other aspect people forget is that just because a person is shot doesn't mean he's not going to continue to fight, even those who are trying to help him.

I had to subdue, get another officer to taser and then handcuff a guy who was stabbed several times because he kept fighting the medics, just because they may be dying doesn't mean they aren't still dangerous.

[Lon]

Is this allowed under Virginia state law?


If this happened in Ohio he would be prohibited from possessing firearms while the indictment is valid.


2923.13 Having weapons while under disability.
(A) Unless relieved from disability under operation of law or legal process, no person shall knowingly acquire, have, carry, or use any firearm or dangerous ordnance, if any of the following apply:

(1) The person is a fugitive from justice.

(2) The person is under indictment for or has been convicted of any felony offense of violence or has been adjudicated a delinquent child for the commission of an offense that, if committed by an adult, would have been a felony offense of violence.

(3) The person is under indictment for or has been convicted of any felony offense involving the illegal possession, use, sale, administration, distribution, or trafficking in any drug of abuse or has been adjudicated a delinquent child for the commission of an offense that, if committed by an adult, would have been a felony offense involving the illegal possession, use, sale, administration, distribution, or trafficking in any drug of abuse.

(4) The person is drug dependent, in danger of drug dependence, or a chronic alcoholic.

(5) The person is under adjudication of mental incompetence, has been adjudicated as a mental defective, has been committed to a mental institution, has been found by a court to be a mentally ill person subject to court order, or is an involuntary patient other than one who is a patient only for purposes of observation. As used in this division, "mentally ill person subject to court order" and "patient" have the same meanings as in section 5122.01 of the Revised Code.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of having weapons while under disability, a felony of the third degree.


Edit: I looked up VA law. Couldn't find anywhere where an indictment prohibits possession.

[Alpha Sierra]

A drop piece? For what purpose?

Anyone else and I might think something different, but given your rabidly anti-LE emotion based attitude where cops can't sneeze without being a jack-booted pig in your eyes, I really hope you're not eluding to what I think you are.

Why don't you tell the forum what I'm thinking?

[Joe in PNG]

White alone, percent population 2013 : 41.9%
Black or African American alone, percent population 2013: 53.5%


The US Census Bureau's statistics (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/51/51740.html) for Portmouth City VA neatly explains the former officer's treatment. RacePimping in many cities is defacto public policy, and woe betide any city employee who values truth over coddling the "My Twenty Time Arrest Son was an Angel!" crowd.

#Blackvotesmatter

[jondoe297]

It's a bunch of BS. I work in Portsmouth, and am acquainted with the officer involved fairly well. He's been tossed under the bus and had it repeatedly driven over him.

[LittleLebowski]

It's a bunch of BS. I work in Portsmouth, and am acquainted with the officer involved fairly well. He's been tossed under the bus and had it repeatedly driven over him.

That's putting it mildly, given the witnesses' testimony that completely corroborates his account of the incident.

[HCM]

Someone needs to slip him a drop piece on the side

If you think that will fly in 2015 give it a try. The days of drop pieces are long over.

[Coyotesfan97]

I have five years to go once I DROP (By the way DROP is Deferred Retirement Option Plan) this year. Sometimes I think it can't come quickly enough.

[breakingtime91]

I have five years to go once I DROP this year. Sometimes I think it can't come quickly enough.

Stay strong man, no idea how you guys deal with the shit that's going on. I always stop and thank cops now. This is beyond out of hand now

[Coyotesfan97]

Stay strong man, no idea how you guys deal with the shit that's going on. I always stop and thank cops now. This is beyond out of hand now

Thank You!

[jondoe297]

That's putting it mildly, given the witnesses' testimony that completely corroborates his account of the incident.

There are many minute little things they are pulling out of their asses to justify the charge. An hour before the shooting he was texting with a dispatcher that he knows, saying how much he hated his job, and how much he hated the city, because there were no good people in it. The Commonwealth is using that as prima facie evidence that he was biased toward the "victim" before he encountered him.

[BJJ]

There are many minute little things they are pulling out of their asses to justify the charge. An hour before the shooting he was texting with a dispatcher that he knows, saying how much he hated his job, and how much he hated the city, because there were no good people in it. The Commonwealth is using that as prima facie evidence that he was biased toward the "victim" before he encountered him.

If that's what they are presenting as evidence, it seems like they have a very weak case.

[voodoo_man]

I have five years to go once I DROP (By the way DROP is Deferred Retirement Option Plan) this year. Sometimes I think it can't come quickly enough.

Weve got that program too, some of our guys go out then come right back because the PD needs people....total scam lol

[Dagga Boy]

The other aspect people forget is that just because a person is shot doesn't mean he's not going to continue to fight, even those who are trying to help him.

I had to subdue, get another officer to taser and then handcuff a guy who was stabbed several times because he kept fighting the medics, just because they may be dying doesn't mean they aren't still dangerous.

Anyone who has seen a Narcan miracle happen where a dead dude re animates into a knock down drag out fight in a couple seconds will understand that you never count on anything. I have seen way to many shot folks who need a pile of cops to fight them into cuffs to not cuff all of them.

[voodoo_man]

Anyone who has seen a Narcan miracle happen where a dead dude re animates into a knock down drag out fight in a couple seconds will understand that you never count on anything. I have seen way to many shot folks who need a pile of cops to fight them into cuffs to not cuff all of them.

Yeah, theres a video somewhere of two medics and me fighting a 100lb 5'2 female that got narcaned back to life. She was definitely zombie style since nothing we did would stop her.

[TGS]

If that's what they are presenting as evidence, it seems like they have a very weak case.

Which ultimately doesn't matter and isn't important to their goal.

They'll just blame the fact he isn't convicted on the evil white man's oppressive justice system that is unfair to blacks. They did their obligatory media grand-standing, and the mission is accomplished.

[Hambo]

I have five years to go once I DROP (By the way DROP is Deferred Retirement Option Plan) this year. Sometimes I think it can't come quickly enough.

Off topic, but remember, the actuaries want you to work longer for a reason. When I crunched the numbers, DROP did not look good to me.

[jondoe297]

If that's what they are presenting as evidence, it seems like they have a very weak case.

She (The Commonwealth's Attorney) is throwing the big charge and hoping to net a plea or conviction on a lesser one.

[MD7305]

There are many minute little things they are pulling out of their asses to justify the charge. An hour before the shooting he was texting with a dispatcher that he knows, saying how much he hated his job, and how much he hated the city, because there were no good people in it. The Commonwealth is using that as prima facie evidence that he was biased toward the "victim" before he encountered him.

Sheesh! I'm throwing an assumption out there, but I'm guessing if they subpoenaed the text records of most employees they would find similar information. When I first read about this I couldn't wrap my head around the first degree murder charge, obviously our brother is getting railroaded but the first degree charge seemed odd since he was actually attempting to make an arrest pursuant to a criminal offense. I figured they'd go 2nd degree or voluntary manslaughter but this info about the text answered my question. I complain about my job, town, etc. all the time, who doesn't? Frightening times we're living in...

[ssb]

There are many minute little things they are pulling out of their asses to justify the charge. An hour before the shooting he was texting with a dispatcher that he knows, saying how much he hated his job, and how much he hated the city, because there were no good people in it. The Commonwealth is using that as prima facie evidence that he was biased toward the "victim" before he encountered him.

Is there an indictment available somewhere that we could read?

Edit: found it, but it's not particularly useful.

[JHC]

There are witnesses describing how the suspect tussled with the cop, knocked the Tazer out of the cops' hand, and then charged the cop.

If it's this bad for LEOs with a protected underclass that you literally cannot defend yourself against when they are assaulting you, it's going to be worse for Joe Civilian protecting his home/family. Think about it.

You may be right of course. OTOH I think the LEOs are in a little worse situation in this respect: they are hamstrung from really using impact weapons effectively anymore it seems. If he was allowed to "tonk" this clown with a D-cell he might not have to go to guns. Is that so crazy?

[Chuck Haggard]

You may be right of course. OTOH I think the LEOs are in a little worse situation in this respect: they are hamstrung from really using impact weapons effectively anymore it seems. If he was allowed to "tonk" this clown with a D-cell he might not have to go to guns. Is that so crazy?

While that is a fact, it's also evil and racist, thus not allowed............... Same with neck restraints

[Gadfly]

Overheard long ago from an old timer...

"You see that (pointing a night stick)? That three foot of hickory has solved more problems than all cops in this building combined."

[farscott]

Is this prosecution related to the shooting of Kirill Denyakin back in 2011 by the same officer? Is that what is driving the first-degree murder charge?

[45dotACP]

While that is a fact, it's also evil and racist, thus not allowed............... Same with neck restraints
Which is stupid by itself...

I can't imagine what I'd do if I had to go toe to toe with some big, angry, smelly dude and I wasn't allowed to use a sleeper, guillotine, or triangle. Would they prefer an armbar or kneebar? Because I get the feeling that getting all Rousey or Palahares might get the same hashtag reaction from the public...

#blackkneesandarmsmatter

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[cclaxton]

What evidence do we have that the murder charges and dismissal were politically motivated? On the surface it looks bad, but what I have found, at least with Fairfax County, is that the police make their own independent investigation and decision and referral to the Prosecutor's Office. Police are typically loath to succumb to political pressure. And, then the Prosecutor makes his/her own decision. In Virginia, the Commonwealth Attorney's have tended to protect LE rather than throw them under the bus.

I am not taking sides here, but just asking questions to get more facts on the table and take a look at every angle. If this officer is being railroaded for political reasons, then the Justice Department should take over the case and investigate false arrest and prosecutorial misconduct...which it clearly would be.
Cody

[GardoneVT]

What evidence do we have that the murder charges and dismissal were politically motivated? On the surface it looks bad, but what I have found, at least with Fairfax County, is that the police make their own independent investigation and decision and referral to the Prosecutor's Office. Police are typically loath to succumb to political pressure. And, then the Prosecutor makes his/her own decision. In Virginia, the Commonwealth Attorney's have tended to protect LE rather than throw them under the bus.

I am not taking sides here, but just asking questions to get more facts on the table and take a look at every angle. If this officer is being railroaded for political reasons, then the Justice Department should take over the case and investigate false arrest and prosecutorial misconduct...which it clearly would be.
Cody

You mean the Justice Department which answers to a President who hails politically from one of the most corrupt ,race baiting cities in America?

Naïveté doesn't suit you Cclaxton.

[TGS]

You mean the Justice Department which answers to a President who hails politically from one of the most corrupt ,race baiting cities in America?

Naïveté doesn't suit you Cclaxton.

FWIW, even though the policy makers had an obvious agenda, the agents performing the investigations in recent high profile cases all apparently had some sort of professional integrity based on their findings...unlike their bosses.

[jondoe297]

What evidence do we have that the murder charges and dismissal were politically motivated? On the surface it looks bad, but what I have found, at least with Fairfax County, is that the police make their own independent investigation and decision and referral to the Prosecutor's Office. Police are typically loath to succumb to political pressure. And, then the Prosecutor makes his/her own decision. In Virginia, the Commonwealth Attorney's have tended to protect LE rather than throw them under the bus.

I am not taking sides here, but just asking questions to get more facts on the table and take a look at every angle. If this officer is being railroaded for political reasons, then the Justice Department should take over the case and investigate false arrest and prosecutorial misconduct...which it clearly would be.
Cody

The primary investigating agency was the Virginia State Police. They turned their findings over to the Commonwealth's Attorney, who then announced she would seek an indictment, and sent it to a grand jury. Grand Jury returned a true bill. Our CA is NOT a friend of the Police. In her brief tenure, she has been all but overtly hostile towards L.E.
After a case that she prosecuted, when she was an Asst'. CA, I actually overheard her refer to an officer as "That asshole cop" to the defendant's family, in the hallway after the case was over. All because said officer would not budge on dropping a felony assault on LEO charge down to misdemeanor simple assault.
I'm not tracking you on the "and dismissal" part. Nothing has been dismissed.

[jondoe297]

Is this prosecution related to the shooting of Kirill Denyakin back in 2011 by the same officer? Is that what is driving the first-degree murder charge?


Although the press, and families are trying to make them into related cases, he was cleared in his first shoot by a grand jury. He was also cleared in the civil case that followed.

[jondoe297]

FWIW, even though the policy makers had an obvious agenda, the agents performing the investigations in recent high profile cases all apparently had some sort of professional integrity based on their findings...unlike their bosses.

Exactly. People forget that the DOJ cleared Darren Wilson in the Mike Brown shooting.

[cclaxton]

You mean the Justice Department which answers to a President who hails politically from one of the most corrupt ,race baiting cities in America?

Naïveté doesn't suit you Cclaxton.
Well, I don't believe that the prosecutorial decisions of the Justice Department are politically manipulated. I do agree policy decisions are, as they are with every President.

However, this is NOTHING compared to the Nixon Justice Department. From The HISTORY Website:
"On October 20, 1973, in an unprecedented show of executive power, Nixon ordered Attorney General Elliot Richardson and Deputy Attorney General William Ruckelshaus to fire Cox, but both men refused and resigned their posts in protest. The role of attorney general then fell to Solicitor General Robert Bork, who reluctantly complied with Nixon’s request and dismissed Cox. Less than a half hour later, the White House dispatched FBI agents to close off the offices of the Special Prosecutor, Attorney General and Deputy Attorney General."
http://www.history.com/news/ask-history/what-was-the-saturday-night-massacre

Unless you were old enough to remember Watergate, or have studied the case against Nixon, you really don't understand just how corrupt and egomaniacal Nixon was. He stared into the camera of a National Broadcast and lied to the American people, multiple times. The recent release of the Nixon transcripts that were redacted until recently just confirm that Nixon never once said in private "for the good of the country" but focused on staying in power and how to manipulate everyone around him to maintain his power.

It is my view that the Attorney General should be an independent agency of the Federal Government for this reason.
Cody

ADDED: Nixon tells them to burglarize the Brookings Institution. http://millercenter.org/presidentialclassroom/exhibits/i-want-brookings-institute-safe-cleaned-out

[cclaxton]

The primary investigating agency was the Virginia State Police. They turned their findings over to the Commonwealth's Attorney, who then announced she would seek an indictment, and sent it to a grand jury. Grand Jury returned a true bill. Our CA is NOT a friend of the Police. In her brief tenure, she has been all but overtly hostile towards L.E.
After a case that she prosecuted, when she was an Asst'. CA, I actually overheard her refer to an officer as "That asshole cop" to the defendant's family, in the hallway after the case was over. All because said officer would not budge on dropping a felony assault on LEO charge down to misdemeanor simple assault.
I'm not tracking you on the "and dismissal" part. Nothing has been dismissed.
I was referring to the LEO being fired...dismissed.
Cody

[jondoe297]

I was referring to the LEO being fired...dismissed.
Cody

Ok. We're on the same page now. He was fired after the indictment was announced. They actually handed him his termination papers as he was walking into the booking area to turn himself in.
Right around then, the Chief released a statement, offering his personal condolences to the family of the deceased. The CA also had the mother of the "victim" with her at the press conference, where she announced the indictment. She even allowed the guy's mother to speak at the conference, and talk about how she was so happy that "justice was being served".

[LittleLebowski]

I was referring to the LEO being fired...dismissed.
Cody

I think that Stevie Wonder could see the bias and political motivations in this one.

parabellum242, please contact me if a legit fundraising attempt is setup to help this officer. Between here, ARF, and LightFighter; we can do a little bit of good, methinks.

[farscott]

Although the press, and families are trying to make them into related cases, he was cleared in his first shoot by a grand jury. He was also cleared in the civil case that followed.

I understand that he was acquitted in the criminal case and found not liable in the civil case, but I wonder if the new criminal charges are partially due to "him getting away with murder". First-degree murder usually means premeditation, and a bunch of text messages about not liking your job is not premeditation. But those charges sure sway a civil case, even if he is acquitted on the most recent charges.

[Jeep]

Well, I don't believe that the prosecutorial decisions of the Justice Department are politically manipulated. I do agree policy decisions are, as they are with every President.

However, this is NOTHING compared to the Nixon Justice Department. From The HISTORY Website:
"On October 20, 1973, in an unprecedented show of executive power, Nixon ordered Attorney General Elliot Richardson and Deputy Attorney General William Ruckelshaus to fire Cox, but both men refused and resigned their posts in protest. The role of attorney general then fell to Solicitor General Robert Bork, who reluctantly complied with Nixon’s request and dismissed Cox. Less than a half hour later, the White House dispatched FBI agents to close off the offices of the Special Prosecutor, Attorney General and Deputy Attorney General."
http://www.history.com/news/ask-history/what-was-the-saturday-night-massacre

Unless you were old enough to remember Watergate, or have studied the case against Nixon, you really don't understand just how corrupt and egomaniacal Nixon was. He stared into the camera of a National Broadcast and lied to the American people, multiple times. The recent release of the Nixon transcripts that were redacted until recently just confirm that Nixon never once said in private "for the good of the country" but focused on staying in power and how to manipulate everyone around him to maintain his power.

It is my view that the Attorney General should be an independent agency of the Federal Government for this reason.
Cody

ADDED: Nixon tells them to burglarize the Brookings Institution. http://millercenter.org/presidentialclassroom/exhibits/i-want-brookings-institute-safe-cleaned-out

Cody:

I was alive and paying attention when Watergate happened. I was also alive and paying attention when Sam Ervin helped steer the Bobby Baker investigation away from LBJ. And I was also paying attention when Janet Reno refused to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the White House "coffees" in which Clinton and Gore raised vast sums from illegal foreign contributors (including Chinese intelligence officials) for the 1996 election, despite FBI Director Freeh's telling her that more than probable cause existed to prosecute.

Nixon was indeed bad. LBJ was, if anything, worse. Clinton was little better than either (remember the 900 FBI files of prominent people that somehow ended up in the White House). And the present administration is playing the same game. Like Nixon (and LBJ) it has launched the IRS against political opponents. In addition, the Civil Rights division of the Justice department has repeatedly launched racially based attacks on, among others, cops, whose main sin seems to have been being white.

The truth is, our federal government has been out of control since at least FDR (read up on his pursuit of Andrew Mellon if you want to see a naked political prosecution); presidents of both parties have participated in serious wrongdoing, and it is getting worse.

By the way, the "Saturday Night Massacre" to which you refer was dumb politics on Nixon's part--but totally legal. Ordering burglaries was the serious, and clearly criminal, issue.

[ssb]

I get that the consensus is that the officer was/is being railroaded. However, does anybody have any source on what the prosecutor's saying and/or her justification for first-degree murder? Not everybody's local. The only thing I can gather is something about a text message to a dispatcher about an hour before, something about how the city/people in it suck. Though I'm well aware that it doesn't have to equal "he walked out the door intending to kill somebody that day" and can be formed rather quickly, I'm very curious to know how she intends to satisfy the premeditation element.

Near as I can tell, this is the sequence of events as it's been currently reported:

1. Police receive call about shoplifting.
2. (assuming) Rankin was the responding officer.
3. The officer approaches Chapman (assuming he matched a description?)
4. Construction guys say a struggle ensues.
5. Construction guys say Rankin tries to get a taser into play.
6. Construction guys say Rankin has the taser knocked out of his hand.
7. Construction guys say Rankin makes a bit of space, pulls his gun, and some sort of talking occurs (unheard). Construction guys say Chapman then charges Rankin.
8. Rankin shoots Chapman.
9. Rankin administers first aid.
10. Coroner says that Chapman wasn't shot from "close range," whatever that means (no contact distance?).

As a follow-up, does the act of knocking a taser out of an officer's hand allow for a higher level of force under Graham v. Connor? What about charging an officer after they've drawn a gun?

[TAZ]

Definitely need more facts on the case. The CA can probably sway an GJ with emotional BS to get an indictment, but she has to win a case in fact, well in theory anyway. The indictment only means a GJ feel there needs to be more done to get the facts out. It doesn't mean the guy is guilty of anything.

If the statements of the construction crew are accurate then, much like the Darren Wilson thing this is an attempt by the legal system to try and look like they are doing something in order to prevent mass carnage. Darren Wilson got a no bill and mayhem ensued. Maybe they are hoping to quell the BLM folks from burning their neightborhwods by having the GJ bill and then people forget stuff over the next few months or year as the trial gets finished.

To me it appears to be the political system protecting itself without consideration towards the collateral damage they incur. Short term damage control is superseding any long tern consequence evaluation.

Call me a pessimist, but IMO things are going to get really weird before they get better.

[jondoe297]

I get that the consensus is that the officer was/is being railroaded. However, does anybody have any source on what the prosecutor's saying and/or her justification for first-degree murder? Not everybody's local. The only thing I can gather is something about a text message to a dispatcher about an hour before, something about how the city/people in it suck. Though I'm well aware that it doesn't have to equal "he walked out the door intending to kill somebody that day" and can be formed rather quickly, I'm very curious to know how she intends to satisfy the premeditation element.

Near as I can tell, this is the sequence of events as it's been currently reported:

1. Police receive call about shoplifting.
2. (assuming) Rankin was the responding officer.
3. The officer approaches Chapman (assuming he matched a description?)
4. Construction guys say a struggle ensues.
5. Construction guys say Rankin tries to get a taser into play.
6. Construction guys say Rankin has the taser knocked out of his hand.
7. Construction guys say Rankin makes a bit of space, pulls his gun, and some sort of talking occurs (unheard). Construction guys say Chapman then charges Rankin.
8. Rankin shoots Chapman.
9. Rankin administers first aid.
10. Coroner says that Chapman wasn't shot from "close range," whatever that means (no contact distance?).

As a follow-up, does the act of knocking a taser out of an officer's hand allow for a higher level of force under Graham v. Connor? What about charging an officer after they've drawn a gun?

There are more elements at play, but I'm not going to put anything out there that isn't already in the public domain.

[LittleLebowski]

Cody:

I was alive and paying attention when Watergate happened. I was also alive and paying attention when Sam Ervin helped steer the Bobby Baker investigation away from LBJ. And I was also paying attention when Janet Reno refused to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the White House "coffees" in which Clinton and Gore raised vast sums from illegal foreign contributors (including Chinese intelligence officials) for the 1996 election, despite FBI Director Freeh's telling her that more than probable cause existed to prosecute.

Nixon was indeed bad. LBJ was, if anything, worse. Clinton was little better than either (remember the 900 FBI files of prominent people that somehow ended up in the White House). And the present administration is playing the same game. Like Nixon (and LBJ) it has launched the IRS against political opponents. In addition, the Civil Rights division of the Justice department has repeatedly launched racially based attacks on, among others, cops, whose main sin seems to have been being white.

The truth is, our federal government has been out of control since at least FDR (read up on his pursuit of Andrew Mellon if you want to see a naked political prosecution); presidents of both parties have participated in serious wrongdoing, and it is getting worse.

By the way, the "Saturday Night Massacre" to which you refer was dumb politics on Nixon's part--but totally legal. Ordering burglaries was the serious, and clearly criminal, issue.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/675x380/2015/07/cranston.jpg

[LittleLebowski]

Call me a pessimist, but IMO things are going to get really weird before they get better.



I don't think that things are going to get better.

[jondoe297]

I think that Stevie Wonder could see the bias and political motivations in this one.

parabellum242, please contact me if a legit fundraising attempt is setup to help this officer. Between here, ARF, and LightFighter; we can do a little bit of good, methinks.

I'll let you know if I hear anything. There were some PPD officers trying organize something on FB before the indictment, but PD admin brought the hammer down, so no one has really been discussing it openly.

[cclaxton]

Cody:

I was alive and paying attention when Watergate happened. I was also alive and paying attention when Sam Ervin helped steer the Bobby Baker investigation away from LBJ. And I was also paying attention when Janet Reno refused to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the White House "coffees" in which Clinton and Gore raised vast sums from illegal foreign contributors (including Chinese intelligence officials) for the 1996 election, despite FBI Director Freeh's telling her that more than probable cause existed to prosecute.

Nixon was indeed bad. LBJ was, if anything, worse. Clinton was little better than either (remember the 900 FBI files of prominent people that somehow ended up in the White House). And the present administration is playing the same game. Like Nixon (and LBJ) it has launched the IRS against political opponents. In addition, the Civil Rights division of the Justice department has repeatedly launched racially based attacks on, among others, cops, whose main sin seems to have been being white.

The truth is, our federal government has been out of control since at least FDR (read up on his pursuit of Andrew Mellon if you want to see a naked political prosecution); presidents of both parties have participated in serious wrongdoing, and it is getting worse.

By the way, the "Saturday Night Massacre" to which you refer was dumb politics on Nixon's part--but totally legal. Ordering burglaries was the serious, and clearly criminal, issue.
My view is the FBI has become the most trusted law enforcement in America. They have continued to improve over time, and have been careful to stay within the rules of law, evidence, and forthright investigations. And, it's not just the FBI, The Dept of State Investigative Services, the Secret Service Investigative Services, NCIS, and affiliated federal organizations are, for the most part, professional, thorough, on top of technology, and doing a great job. Have they screwed some things up?...Sure. But let's not forget how bad it was during the Hoover years.

In my view LBJ was a bully and a manipulator, but kept things legal. His abuses were political, not illegal.

In my view nothing can compare with the level of illegality and extreme egomaniacal behavior of Nixon.

But this thread is not about presidents...it's about whether the FBI and the Justice Department would give this LEO and it's department a fair shake. I think they would, and it may come to that.
Cody

[TGS]

My view is the FBI has become the most trusted law enforcement in America. They have continued to improve over time, and have been careful to stay within the rules of law, evidence, and forthright investigations. And, it's not just the FBI, The Dept of State Investigative Services, the Secret Service Investigative Services, NCIS, and affiliated federal organizations are, for the most part, professional, thorough, on top of technology, and doing a great job. Have they screwed some things up?...Sure. But let's not forget how bad it was during the Hoover years.

In my view LBJ was a bully and a manipulator, but kept things legal. His abuses were political, not illegal.

In my view nothing can compare with the level of illegality and extreme egomaniacal behavior of Nixon.

But this thread is not about presidents...it's about whether the FBI and the Justice Department would give this LEO and it's department a fair shake. I think they would, and it may come to that.
Cody

Let me be the first to say.....

....oh my.

[TCinVA]

In my view LBJ was a bully and a manipulator, but kept things legal.


Then you clearly know nothing about LBJ. Read Robert Caro's series of books on LBJ sometime.

There are people on this board who have worked for various federal LE agencies and in the DOJ and if you chat with many of them you'll hear a lot less faith out of them in the institutions as a whole than what you have expressed. These agencies are made up of people, and people are not the same just because they work for X agency.

[DocGKR]

Well said.

[LittleLebowski]

My view is the FBI has become the most trusted law enforcement in America. They have continued to improve over time, and have been careful to stay within the rules of law, evidence, and forthright investigations. And, it's not just the FBI, The Dept of State Investigative Services, the Secret Service Investigative Services, NCIS, and affiliated federal organizations are, for the most part, professional, thorough, on top of technology, and doing a great job. Have they screwed some things up?...Sure. But let's not forget how bad it was during the Hoover years.

In my view LBJ was a bully and a manipulator, but kept things legal. His abuses were political, not illegal.

In my view nothing can compare with the level of illegality and extreme egomaniacal behavior of Nixon.

But this thread is not about presidents...it's about whether the FBI and the Justice Department would give this LEO and it's department a fair shake. I think they would, and it may come to that.
Cody

That's it, you and I are from different planets. I'm not trying to be insulting but I literally cannot reason with someone who thinks Nixon was worse than LBJ.

[jondoe297]

T

There are people on this board who have worked for various federal LE agencies and in the DOJ and if you chat with many of them you'll hear a lot less faith out of them in the institutions as a whole than what you have expressed. These agencies are made up of people, and people are not the same just because they work for X agency.

When I worked for the DoD, we referred to NCIS as "No Crime Is Solved"

[Jeep]

Cody:

Do read Robert Caro's books about LBJ. Caro is 100% liberal, but he reported what he discovered and what he discovered is that LBJ cheated in every election he was in, was a massive financial crook who used his government positions to become extremely rich, and routinely used the government machinery for political purposes. He also thought LBJ had good sides, but overall his books are absolutely devastating.

I will pass on the FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies--many here are far more knowledgeable than me about them--but the Obama Department of Justice is not particularly interested in justice. The Civil Rights Division is filled with lawyers who do not believe in the equal protection of the laws. They have argued that the Civil Rights Acts only protect minorities--NOT whites--an utterly untenable position that is contradicted by both the text and the legislative history of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Many are extreme radical leftists, complete with pictures of Che on their walls. To them, cops (especially but not exclusively white cops) are per se oppressors, and black crooks are per se victims of institutional racism (never mind that black crooks mainly target other blacks). They have been repeatedly chastised by federal judges for rank wrongdoing (a senior member of the division ran into real problems because of her conduct during a trial in New Orleans) but are protected by their Justice Department superiors who appear to agree with their legal views and tactics.

[Coyotesfan97]

Originally Posted by cclaxton
In my view LBJ was a bully and a manipulator, but kept things legal.

Thank you for the laugh!

[cclaxton]

That's it, you and I are from different planets. I'm not trying to be insulting but I literally cannot reason with someone who thinks Nixon was worse than LBJ.
You mean, like how Nixon conspired with our enemies to sabotage the Vietnamese Peace Talks?...That would be Treason, right?
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/lbj-tapes-nixon-sabotaged-vietnam-peace-talks/

I am open to be wrong here, and while I admit there was election fraud when LBJ was elected to the Senate, both sides engaged in election fraud...that was how it was done back then.

But what Nixon was doing was actually trying to undermine the national election by using the US Government and his own personal contractors to sabotage his political enemies through illegal burglaries, targeting political enemies for blackmail, and all for him to continue his power. From reading the transcripts from the tapes Nixon never cared about America....he cared about how HE would stay in power and how HE would make himself look great. LBJ was no saint and I don't really want to defend him. But LBJ was willing to give Civil Rights to Blacks in exchange for their votes...while being a racist. That was political manipulation, not an attempt to manipulate an election through subversion.
Cody

[wrmettler]

In August 2, 1964, The Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred. Factually, it is complicated situation, but on August 2, 1964, before he knew the entire situation, LBJ went on TV to push for a congressional resolution that would gave him authority to use land forces in Vietnam. McNamara went to congress to ask for unlimited authority to use ground infantry in Vietnam based on this incident. He and LBJ received what they asked for in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. LBJ used that incident in ’64 to support his re-election efforts. He later said that the navy could have been shooting a whales for all he knew.

In the fall of ‘64, there were about 23,000 troops in South Vietnam. LBJ raised that level to over 500,000 by ’68.

Cody, how many US troops were killed after ’64 in Vietnam? How many were killed as a direct result of LBJ’s lying to the county on TV in the summer of ’64 so he could get elected President. Ask relatives of a serviceman killed in Vietnam about what they think of LBJ. They’ll be pretty blunt about their thoughts, and that’s a reason why he decided not to run in ’68.

The ’68 presidential race was close because George Wallace and Curtis LeMay ran a 3rd party campaign and won 13% of the vote (10,000,000+ votes) and won 5 states. Nixon still won over 300 electoral votes. Humphry was toast from the get go. I voted in that election.

[cclaxton]

In August 2, 1964, The Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred. Factually, it is complicated situation, but on August 2, 1964, before he knew the entire situation, LBJ went on TV to push for a congressional resolution that would gave him authority to use land forces in Vietnam. McNamara went to congress to ask for unlimited authority to use ground infantry in Vietnam based on this incident. He and LBJ received what they asked for in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. LBJ used that incident in ’64 to support his re-election efforts. He later said that the navy could have been shooting a whales for all he knew.

In the fall of ‘64, there were about 23,000 troops in South Vietnam. LBJ raised that level to over 500,000 by ’68.

Cody, how many US troops were killed after ’64 in Vietnam? How many were killed as a direct result of LBJ’s lying to the county on TV in the summer of ’64 so he could get elected President. Ask relatives of a serviceman killed in Vietnam about what they think of LBJ. They’ll be pretty blunt about their thoughts, and that’s a reason why he decided not to run in ’68.

The ’68 presidential race was close because George Wallace and Curtis LeMay ran a 3rd party campaign and won 13% of the vote (10,000,000+ votes) and won 5 states. Nixon still won over 300 electoral votes. Humphry was toast from the get go. I voted in that election.
Again I don't defend the abuses of LBJ. And I don't disagree with your appraisal of his poor decisions around the Vietnam War. But remember it wasn't just LBJ. There were a number of foreign policy specialist talking domino effect and extending the cold war with Russia and China. I put a lot of blame on Henry Kissinger. However that was politics of the day that both sides used. In fact it hasn't changed a lot today. But when you look at what Nixon did to undermine and subvert the election process and the extent to which he did it and the reasons he did it LBJ just doesn't compare in the level of egomaniac.

But I want to get back to the topic of this thread.

If the FBI was so politicized, then why didn't they railroad Darren Wilson?

[Dagga Boy]

If the FBI was so politicized, then why didn't they railroad Darren Wilson?

Because he was so innocent they would have had to make up something. Notice they did manage to find "bad" stuff with the agency. If you think federal agencies are not motivated by politics (IRS, BATFE and Fast and Furious), you are living in la la land. Do I think individual agents are bad....no way. Their executive staffs are in the positions they are in by knowing how to play ball with the politicians in power. Those executive staff's put people in place to do their bidding. This happens in ALL government agencies to some degree.

[voodoo_man]

Because he was so innocent they would have had to make up something. Notice they did manage to find "bad" stuff with the agency. If you think federal agencies are not motivated by politics (IRS, BATFE and Fast and Furious), you are living in la la land. Do I think individual agents are bad....no way. Their executive staffs are in the positions they are in by knowing how to play ball with the politicians in power. Those executive staff's put people in place to do their bidding. This happens in ALL government agencies to some degree.

Exactly.

Look at the vast majority of LE departments, including federal depts, the top brass are politicians, not LEOs. They have no idea how the job is done without an agenda and will always let the politicians in power guide their actions.

[Hambo]

My view is the FBI has become the most trusted law enforcement in America. They have continued to improve over time, and have been careful to stay within the rules of law, evidence, and forthright investigations. And, it's not just the FBI, The Dept of State Investigative Services, the Secret Service Investigative Services, NCIS, and affiliated federal organizations are, for the most part, professional, thorough, on top of technology, and doing a great job. Have they screwed some things up?...Sure. But let's not forget how bad it was during the Hoover years.

it's about whether the FBI and the Justice Department would give this LEO and it's department a fair shake. I think they would, and it may come to that.

Cody

I thought that kind of naivety went out with Jimmy Stewart and The FBI Story.

https://youtu.be/vI0S1K6RE2Q

[cclaxton]

Because he was so innocent they would have had to make up something. Notice they did manage to find "bad" stuff with the agency. If you think federal agencies are not motivated by politics (IRS, BATFE and Fast and Furious), you are living in la la land. Do I think individual agents are bad....no way. Their executive staffs are in the positions they are in by knowing how to play ball with the politicians in power. Those executive staff's put people in place to do their bidding. This happens in ALL government agencies to some degree.
Oh, I completely agree that policies of the Feds do get affected. But, I don't think it raises to the level of corruption, violation of the law, political wiretapping, blackmail, and all the bad things that Hoover did back in the day:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/02/fbi-director-hoover-s-dirty-files-excerpt-from-ronald-kessler-s-the-secrets-of-the-fbi.html
While the negative effects of policy goals affect the agency, agents are unwilling to violate the law in order to convict an innocent man/woman, fabricate evidence, or burglarize the Republican National Committee's Headquarters or blackmail key political enemies using illegally obtained wiretaps. It is a matter of being a professional and wanting to keep your job.
From what I can see, the Ferguson PD and the courts were systematically violating equal protection, and that needed to be fixed anyway.
Cody

[farscott]

Oh, I completely agree that policies of the Feds do get affected. But, I don't think it raises to the level of corruption, violation of the law, political wiretapping, blackmail, and all the bad things that Hoover did back in the day:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/02/fbi-director-hoover-s-dirty-files-excerpt-from-ronald-kessler-s-the-secrets-of-the-fbi.html
While the negative effects of policy goals affect the agency, agents are unwilling to violate the law in order to convict an innocent man/woman, fabricate evidence, or burglarize the Republican National Committee's Headquarters or blackmail key political enemies using illegally obtained wiretaps. It is a matter of being a professional and wanting to keep your job.
From what I can see, the Ferguson PD and the courts were systematically violating equal protection, and that needed to be fixed anyway.
Cody

I have to disagree about individual agents and their management not violating the law to hassle an innocent person. The issue with the Secret Service lying about possessing warrants is a great example. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1312810-steve-anderson-letter-regarding-secret-service.html

[cclaxton]

I have to disagree about individual agents and their management not violating the law to hassle an innocent person. The issue with the Secret Service lying about possessing warrants is a great example. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1312810-steve-anderson-letter-regarding-secret-service.html
As large as these organizations are, and as much as they arrest and detain and investigate, there are going to be mistakes. Are we really expecting thousands of federal agents and their management to be held to a zero tolerance standard? Life is not perfect, but overall they are doing a great job and I commend them and thank them for their service. And, Thank God we have them as a backup for when local/state PD over-reach or violate rights.
Cody

[Dagga Boy]

As large as these organizations are, and as much as they arrest and detain and investigate, there are going to be mistakes. Are we really expecting thousands of federal agents and their management to be held to a zero tolerance standard? Life is not perfect, but overall they are doing a great job and I commend them and thank them for their service. And, Thank God we have them as a backup for when local/state PD over-reach or violate rights.
Cody

Yet the same people hold hundreds of thousands of police officers to a zero tolerance standard. Who is there as a back up when Fed agents over reach and violate rights. How many supervisors at ATF went to jail for committing crimes....versus getting promoted (look at the Fast and Furious ASAC who lied on multiple 4473 forms and his personally owned pistol that he commited a felony buying and selling was used in a murder in Mexico...he got promoted). Look at the case involving the firearms industry's biggest crook piece of crap Richard Bistrong and what happened to the agents involved in that fabricated creation in which a total and well known crook got caught and then implicated a ton of good people while he used coke and whores working with the FBI.....where is the accountability there.

[jondoe297]

As large as these organizations are, and as much as they arrest and detain and investigate, there are going to be mistakes. Are we really expecting thousands of federal agents and their management to be held to a zero tolerance standard? Life is not perfect, but overall they are doing a great job and I commend them and thank them for their service. And, Thank God we have them as a backup for when local/state PD over-reach or violate rights.
Cody

I find it ironic that you are steadfastly defending something, when people who have either A.) done the job and/or B.) dealt with those entities on a professional basis, are telling you that they are not the bastion of objective impartiality that you want them to be.
I have dealt with NCIS and ATF on a professional basis, and I promise you they are no better than state/local LE. They just have vastly superior resources at their disposal.

[Gadfly]

Been a Fed LEO for over 16 years now. Worked for over 4 years in a HIDTA task force at the DEA, where I shared a cube farm with DEA, FBI, ATF, and HSI.

ALL of the rank and file agents were pretty squared away, we all got along, and we all just wanted to catch bad guys. ALL Management attracts a certain individual who wants to climb high, and in the feds, climbing high is more about politics than who is best for the job. Agency pissing matches go on at high levels, but rarely among the street folks. With the street folks it is just interagency ball busting and practical jokes for the most part, but no real animosity.

As far as politics infecting the job, EVERY agency gets mission shift depending on which way the political winds are blowing. I work at HSI and we are in the middle of a per election "stop arresting aliens" kick... once the election is over, regardless of who wins, we will be back to arresting folks. Depending on what the big news story of the month is, we may put all out ongoing cases on hold to rush out and look at the current hot potato crime of the month.

The FBI is subject to this just like any other agency. If DC says go forth and find something/anything to make it look like we are crackling down on police brutality, the agents will simply be forced to dig and dig and dig until they find something to appease DC. It is the way of the world. The FBI is as much a marketing and PR department for the DOJ as it is a LEO agency. Same as HSI. We are budgeted to do our job when the politicians want it done, other times funding for jail bed space or vehicle fuel is simply cut and little can be done due to our "revised budget"...

[cclaxton]

I find it ironic that you are steadfastly defending something, when people who have either A.) done the job and/or B.) dealt with those entities on a professional basis, are telling you that they are not the bastion of objective impartiality that you want them to be.
I have dealt with NCIS and ATF on a professional basis, and I promise you they are no better than state/local LE. They just have vastly superior resources at their disposal.
I don't want to get into a "which Federal Agency is better than then other" kind of debate. I will say that the Federal Agents I have gotten to know are much better trained and briefed on the law (i.e.- 4th Amendment case law, detention limits, etc.) than are local and State police (with some exceptions of course). They have more basic education, are paid better, have more resources, and attend a lot more training, and IMHO, better at their jobs. And, from what I see the Feds normally do a better job. Are they the bastion of objective justices?....No, but then, that is an unachievable fantasy.
Cody

[Dagga Boy]

I don't want to get into a "which Federal Agency is better than then other" kind of debate. I will say that the Federal Agents I have gotten to know are much better trained and briefed on the law (i.e.- 4th Amendment case law, detention limits, etc.) than are local and State police (with some exceptions of course). They have more basic education, are paid better, have more resources, and attend a lot more training, and IMHO, better at their jobs. And, from what I see the Feds normally do a better job. Are they the bastion of objective justices?....No, but then, that is an unachievable fantasy.
Cody

Wow, that is pretty deep. So you think Federal Agents are better briefed on laws used daily. I guess those dumb local guys who are making thousands of arrests, detentions, and contacts on a daily basis, and in court itself often during preliminary hearings to defend the probable cause used are clueless. Good to know. I'd be curious to know how many arrests and detentions a typical FBI agent makes a year.

Don't get me wrong, I have worked with lots of good Federal Agents. I have also seen some retardation of the highest order at trying to handle some of the most basic levels of dealing with field situations.

Cody, I am glad you believe the hype. I miss the days when Santa and the Easter Bunny were real. My life was better then. You keep believing.

[cclaxton]

Cody, I am glad you believe the hype. I miss the days when Santa and the Easter Bunny were real. My life was better then. You keep believing.
Didn't we kill the Easter Bunny?
Santa's not real?

I am sure there are plenty of very competent local and state PD's. I don't want to diminish that.
But you do ask a really good question: Where is the accountability at the Federal level? I would like to see the Dept of Justice and the FBI be moved out from under the Executive and be an independent agency authorized by Congress and with judicial oversight. Maybe Santa will bring me that Christmas Gift.

Cody

[jondoe297]

I don't want to get into a "which Federal Agency is better than then other" kind of debate. I will say that the Federal Agents I have gotten to know are much better trained and briefed on the law (i.e.- 4th Amendment case law, detention limits, etc.) than are local and State police (with some exceptions of course). They have more basic education, are paid better, have more resources, and attend a lot more training, and IMHO, better at their jobs. And, from what I see the Feds normally do a better job. Are they the bastion of objective justices?....No, but then, that is an unachievable fantasy.
Cody

While a the average fed probably knows the federal code better than the average local, I would highly doubt they are more well-versed on state code, which is what most of your daily life is governed by.
Then there's the time I had to explain to an NCIS agent when Miranda actually applied...
To say a fed has "more basic education" as a blanket statement is nothing short of inaccurate. There are federal agencies whose basic academies are as short as eight weeks. The Virginia State Police basic academy is 26 weeks. There are local agencies that require a 4 year degree to even apply for an entry level position. There's far too much variance in levels of training between local, state, and federal, to make a factually accurate statement about who gets "more basic education".

[jondoe297]

Don't get me wrong, I have worked with lots of good Federal Agents. I have also seen some retardation of the highest order at trying to handle some of the most basic levels of dealing with field situations.



Trying to watch anyone with "Agent" in their job title (and who was never a street cop) handle a domestic is nothing short of bad comedy.

[Dagga Boy]

So I don't come off as a hater, there is some stuff the FBI is VERY good at. It is likely a lot of the things that Cody doesn't want them good at outside of sophisticated evidence handling and analysis.

[Le Français]

Trying to watch anyone with "Agent" in their job title (and who was never a street cop) handle a domestic is nothing short of bad comedy.
A few years ago, two BPAs responded to a domestic near the border with Canada (I think the local SO called for mutual aid).

The feds were the first to arrive, but as it turned out they didn't need to do much investigating, because the suspect shot one of them with a shotgun, thus giving them the opportunity to do something they were actually trained for.

Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk

[jondoe297]

As far as politics infecting the job, EVERY agency gets mission shift depending on which way the political winds are blowing. I work at HSI and we are in the middle of a per election "stop arresting aliens" kick... once the election is over, regardless of who wins, we will be back to arresting folks.

It's funny how that exists at every level of LE, isn't it? When a Sheriff comes up for re-election, there's the "Don't ticket residents of the county/city/town" order. Once the election passes, it's back to "GAME ON!".

[jondoe297]

So I don't come off as a hater, there is some stuff the FBI is VERY good at. It is likely a lot of the things that Cody doesn't want them good at outside of sophisticated evidence handling and analysis.

Agreed. I don't think anyone with actual experience in LE would ever contend that the FBI isn't good at their job. It's the contention that federal-level LE is somehow "Superior" to state or local LE that I would take issue with.

[voodoo_man]

Feds are great at what they do, investigation and paperwork. Niche fed teams/units do thing really well.

They can simply not compare to what state local patrol does on a daily basis. Which I would argue requires much more training over a wider field of study than others and requires actual on hands experience to hand properly.

Essentially we do two different jobs and one cannot survive without the other in certain aspects.

[farscott]

As large as these organizations are, and as much as they arrest and detain and investigate, there are going to be mistakes. Are we really expecting thousands of federal agents and their management to be held to a zero tolerance standard? Life is not perfect, but overall they are doing a great job and I commend them and thank them for their service. And, Thank God we have them as a backup for when local/state PD over-reach or violate rights.
Cody

The Nashville incident was not a minor oops as the Secret Service agents asked local LEOs to lie about a warrant to get into a residence, and the Secret Service management (from the Assistant Director to the Director) pretty much ignored the formal complaints of the police chief. The chief felt that he was forced to tell his people that a Captain or higher had to make the call as to whether and how the locals would work with the Secret Service on a case-by-case basis so as to not expose the PD to wrongdoing. That it would come to that suggests a pattern of wrongdoing that I find unacceptable.

I get that LEO jobs are hard. I also get that mistakes get made. But part of being a pro is owning your errors and learning from them. I sometimes get the sense that Federal LEO agency management miss that last part. Waco, Fast & Furious, Nashville, etc. all have the same failure to admit error and insistence on denying responsibility at the heart of the issue.

[Jeep]

The Nashville incident was not a minor oops as the Secret Service agents asked local LEOs to lie about a warrant to get into a residence, and the Secret Service management (from the Assistant Director to the Director) pretty much ignored the formal complaints of the police chief. The chief felt that he was forced to tell his people that a Captain or higher had to make the call as to whether and how the locals would work with the Secret Service on a case-by-case basis so as to not expose the PD to wrongdoing. That it would come to that suggests a pattern of wrongdoing that I find unacceptable.

I get that LEO jobs are hard. I also get that mistakes get made. But part of being a pro is owning your errors and learning from them. I sometimes get the sense that Federal LEO agency management miss that last part. Waco, Fast & Furious, Nashville, etc. all have the same failure to admit error and insistence on denying responsibility at the heart of the issue.

Compare this with the ethos of certain military units, at least some of which conduct tough self-critiques after each mission. It greatly helps in maintaining and improving standards, but it only works if the junior guys are allowed to look their superiors in the eye and tell them "you messed up."

The trouble is, few politicians (or politically sensitive members of senior management) have the stomach for that. Instead, they insist on being told how wonderful they are.

The same, of course, is often true in the private sector, but in those cases the damage is limited to one company at a time.

[SeriousStudent]

Compare this with the ethos of certain military units, at least some of which conduct tough self-critiques after each mission. It greatly helps in maintaining and improving standards, but it only works if the junior guys are allowed to look their superiors in the eye and tell them "you messed up."

The trouble is, few politicians (or politically sensitive members of senior management) have the stomach for that. Instead, they insist on being told how wonderful they are.

The same, of course, is often true in the private sector, but in those cases the damage is limited to one company at a time.

Indeed. One of the very hardest things to accomplish at my last employer was the concept of the "hot wash". It is a crucial element for success of any organization.

It's also the second thing I am starting at the new gig.

[Jeep]

Indeed. One of the very hardest things to accomplish at my last employer was the concept of the "hot wash". It is a crucial element for success of any organization.

It's also the second thing I am starting at the new gig.

Good luck. The whole affirmative action/diversity thing puts so many people beyond criticism these days that it is difficult to have an honest conversation--much less the kind of tough self-assessment that does real good. If you can navigate those difficulties, though, you will gain a real competitive analysis.

[LSP552]

Indeed. One of the very hardest things to accomplish at my last employer was the concept of the "hot wash". It is a crucial element for success of any organization.

Hot washes work best when the Leader takes the first swing on how his planning and execution could have been better.

[Jeep]

Hot washes work best when the Leader takes the first swing on how his planning and execution could have been better.

Yep--and I've not met too many politicians who can conceive that their planning and execution could have been better. Problems are ALWAYS someone else's fault.

[Dagga Boy]

An organization where I learned a ton about how to be exceptional at your job hot washes every mission. Unlike most where everyone pat's each other on the back and wallows in awesomeness, or they "cleanse and disseminate" their screw ups into the way things are done, this place is VERY different. They go around the room and every single member (including supervision) describes what they did wrong......and you better have some things to talk about. It could be a "perfect" operation, but you better find something you as an individual can improve. This does a couple of things....kills ego's, and prevents cockiness while making everyone strive to be better so the team is always improving, and makes people take individual responsibility for their actions. Try finding that in modern management circles.

[SeriousStudent]

Hot washes work best when the Leader takes the first swing on how his planning and execution could have been better.

Yep. Stand up, pronounce all the sins you committed, then ask for further input and correction. Then work down the food chain, and back up.

Then document. Then buy beer and brisket, and drive on.

[Jeep]

An organization where I learned a ton about how to be exceptional at your job hot washes every mission. Unlike most where everyone pat's each other on the back and wallows in awesomeness, or they "cleanse and disseminate" their screw ups into the way things are done, this place is VERY different. They go around the room and every single member (including supervision) describes what they did wrong......and you better have some things to talk about. It could be a "perfect" operation, but you better find something you as an individual can improve. This does a couple of things....kills ego's, and prevents cockiness while making everyone strive to be better so the team is always improving, and makes people take individual responsibility for their actions. Try finding that in modern management circles.

I learned this technique in Ranger School back in the 70's, and as a young, naïve, lieutenant, tried to bring it to my big Army unit. Since we never had an even close to perfect operation, I thought it would be useful because it really does force you to get better. I found, however, that Big Army knew better and that while it agreed that I had made a lot of mistakes, and that my privates had made a lot of mistakes, and even some E-5's and 6's had made mistakes, no mistakes were ever made at any levels higher than that, and indeed the very idea that mistakes could be made up the chain was a grave threat to order and discipline.

Only an organization with both self-confidence and humility can deal with a hot wash.

[SeriousStudent]

.......

Only an organization with both self-confidence and humility can deal with a hot wash.

True. And likely why so many people in this thread have been in multiple organizations.

[TC215]

I don't want to get into a "which Federal Agency is better than then other" kind of debate. I will say that the Federal Agents I have gotten to know are much better trained and briefed on the law (i.e.- 4th Amendment case law, detention limits, etc.) than are local and State police (with some exceptions of course). They have more basic education, are paid better, have more resources, and attend a lot more training, and IMHO, better at their jobs. And, from what I see the Feds normally do a better job. Are they the bastion of objective justices?....No, but then, that is an unachievable fantasy.
Cody

That made me laugh really hard.

[jondoe297]

To resurrect this thread, which somehow got turned into a discussion of Watergate, and fed vs. local LE; jury selection begins tomorrow in Stephen Rankin's trial. The trial itself is slated to begin Monday (8/1). I got the call yesterday morning to report to the courthouse tomorrow morning, and expect to be there for the duration of the trial.

[Duces Tecum]

Betcha a dollar Mark Whitaker is black.

[jondoe297]

Betcha a dollar Mark Whitaker is black.

Indeed.

[senorlechero]

Betcha a dollar Mark Whitaker is black.

He is. http://www.portsmouthva.gov/Directory.aspx?EID=70

[jondoe297]

Thus far, the prosecution's case has presented itself as very weak. After the Commonwealth rested their case today, the defense promptly motioned for dismissal of all charges...which was promptly denied by the judge. Normally I would consider this a no-brainer acquittal for the jury, but it's Portsmouth, and the jury gives me pause.

There's been a small but persistent group of about 15 BLM turd bags that have been there for every minute of the trial. Portsmouth PD has had a few officers show up, but their I.A. Sergeant has been in the court room most of the time, which has scared most of them off. Said I.A. Sergeant was handshaking and hugging some of the BLMers yesterday during a recess. It was truly disgusting.

[HCM]

Ex-Virginia police officer convicted of manslaughter in fatal shooting


A former Portsmouth, Va. police officer was found guilty of voluntary manslaughter Thursday in the fatal shooting of an unarmed man accused of shoplifting at a Wal-Mart.

Stephen Rankin, 36, faces up to 10 years in prison. Prosecutors in had sought a conviction for first-degree murder.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/08/04/ex-virginia-police-officer-convicted-manslaughter-in-fatal-shooting.html

[jondoe297]

Needless to say, it was a frustrating and demoralizing day yesterday. However, I can not see this outcome surviving the appeal process. There was remarkable misconduct on the part of the commonwealth's attorney, and the presiding judge. Including a clear case of jury tampering, which the CA tried to play down, and the judge ignored.

[LittleLebowski]

Needless to say, it was a frustrating and demoralizing day yesterday. However, I can not see this outcome surviving the appeal process. There was remarkable misconduct on the part of the commonwealth's attorney, and the presiding judge. Including a clear case of jury tampering, which the CA tried to play down, and the judge ignored.

I know nothing of such things but to me, it definitely looks like it won't survive an appeal.

[dbateman]

Try finding that in modern management circles.

I've encountered it, at one company I have worked for in my career to date.

They would periodically revisit different things that took place, whether they were good or bad.

Most other companies I've worked for tend to bury all evidence of failure.
They don't seem to realize the value in it.