WHO/SHO - thumb position?

[Clobbersaurus]

I've been working a lot on WHO and SHO in dry fire. I've noticed that thumb position tends to affect the amount of front sight wobble I get when pressing the trigger, especially with DA presses.

So I'll put it out to PF Consigliere, which thumb position do you use and why?

I've found that flagging my thumb, like in the photo below, seems to give much less front sight movement.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC04036_zpsjpel4art.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC04036_zpsjpel4art.jpg.html)


The photo below is what I typically do at the range, with less that stellar results. I tend to think it would give better recoil control than the photo above, but I think this thumb position makes it easier to "milk" the gun.
DA pull on the Girsan is off the scale on a Wheeler Gauge (8lb limit I think) - SA is 7lbs - ish.:cool:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC04037_zpshkb4pcwz.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC04037_zpshkb4pcwz.jpg.html)

[HCM]

Flagging my thumb does seem to give less front sight movement but it gives poor control of the gun when you're trying to shoot quickly, especially with a longer heavier trigger pull. I normally lock my thumb down a bit more than your second photo so it is touching the tip of my middle finger.

[MVS]

Tom Givens teaches it like your first picture, others I have been to like your second. I am undecided after messing around with both ways. Big help huh?

[GJM]

Varies by platform, caliber, individual and even the day.

I think trigger control is more important than recoil for most one hand shooting, so I prioritize in that order.

[BehindBlueI's]

I try to shoot like the top one, but I'm still making that transition and sometimes dork up and go to the bottom one. WHO I hadn't even thought about it, but I'm shooting like the bottom one.

[GJM]

Two more variations to consider. The Rogers School advocates joining thumb to fingers for strength. I sometimes pinch the pistol, in a V, in between the two positions you show.

The key is whatever allows you to best press the trigger the quickest, without disturbing the sights. I also find that I need to be more visually patient shooting one hand, as the trigger press takes longer than freestyle, and it is tempting to eye sprint before the shot has broken.

[Totem Polar]

The most important thing for me is to make sure the metacarpophalangeal joint of my thumb is forward of the edge of the backstrap to avoid energy leakage out the side of the grip, if *that* makes any sense at all...



http://noelhenley.com/noelhenley-new2/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/thumb-joints.jpg


Not ideal for me:

http://glock.pro/attachments/training-tactics/3481d1356123267-basic-action-shooting-grip-trigger-pull-grip-1.jpg


More ideal (forget the context and the fact that it's two hands; imagine the support hand isn't there, and see how the thumb *would* be rolled forward to stabilize the gap on the left side of the blue gun, if the support hand suddenly just vanished and the strong hand grip closed in position):


https://tacticalprofessor.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/9-thumb-clears-stop-paint.jpg

Sorry, I couldn't actually find a decent example of the grip dynamic I'm talking about in a single-handed pic.


Looking at your two example pics, in the top one with your thumb flagged, in order to not drop the gun, you have to defacto roll that M-P joint forward, whereas in the bottom pic, you are gripping with the side of the entire thumb length--you won't drop it, but there will be flexibility and 'give' on some small level.

Try the top pic, only with your thumb pointing aggressively forward (but still flagged so as to not contact the frame/slide) to more consciously roll that M-P joint forward around the side/backstrap corner and see how that works for you sometime.


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/Sidheshooter/PeP3/M-P%20joint%20roll%20forwad_zpsmybtv4wa.jpg (http://s578.photobucket.com/user/Sidheshooter/media/PeP3/M-P%20joint%20roll%20forwad_zpsmybtv4wa.jpg.html)



JMO, and worth what you paid, OMMV, etc...

[JohnO]

I have seen it taught like the second picture. The rational being to fill in the space left by the missing support hand and better envelop the gun. Since I ride the safety my thumb stays there no matter the number of paws I utilize.

[HopetonBrown]

In a recent class Bruce Gray likes the thumb down, second picture position.

Kyle Defoor advocates this as well:

https://youtu.be/wcVHykd3zTU?t=1m1s

[CCT125US]

This is what works for me SHO / WHO. I am applying front to back pressure with my three fingers into my palm, as well as lateral tension with my thumb.
3854

[voodoo_man]

In a recent class Bruce Gray likes the thumb down, second picture position.

Kyle Defoor advocates this as well:

https://youtu.be/wcVHykd3zTU?t=1m1s

That is exactly the way I shoot single handed.

Use the end of the thumb to crush the side of the gun and focus all pressure between the thumb and the pinky/ring finger.

[Clobbersaurus]

Thanks for the discussion guys. I'm hoping to hit the range tomorrow. I will try some variations and report back here.

[Trajan]

I flag the thumb. Seems to keep the gun more stable for me by creating upward pressure on the beavertail.

[Totem Polar]

Kyle Defoor advocates this as well:

https://youtu.be/wcVHykd3zTU?t=1m1s
Gutsy cameraman! I saw more of the bore at 3:30 than would make me comfortable.

[HopetonBrown]

Gutsy cameraman! I saw more of the bore at 3:30 than would make me comfortable.
I hope he received a proper burial.

What's your preferred SHO /WHO grip?

[gtmtnbiker98]

I have to keep thumb tension on the gun, so my grip is thumb down with strong tension applied via the thumb.

[xmanhockey7]

I was taught thumb up, but find thumb down more comfortable and I do not see really any difference in shooting.

[StraitR]

Ironically, while at the range yesterday practicing SHO I thought about posing this very question. Convenient, thanks OP.

After experimenting back and forth, here is what I came up with...

1) Placing my thumb down gave me more leverage to grip the pistol and ultimately more control on multiple shot strings and faster splits.

2) Flagging my thumb resulted in less grip leverage and subsequently less sight movement which was better for precision.


With SHO/WHO, the harder I can grip, the more sight wobble I will induce, and with thumbs down I can get more of a crush grip than I can generate when flagging. In the end, I found myself transitioning back and forth without thought, from thumbs down while shooting strings and transitions to flagging when slowing down due to needing more precision.

Basically, my thumb position was driven by front sight focus while "seeing what I need to see". So, I started off in search for "which" one works best for me, and as it turns out the answer is "both", and determined by the shot(s). YMMV

[Totem Polar]

I hope he received a proper burial.

What's your preferred SHO /WHO grip?

Are you asking me? In general, the one I described in my post on the first page, with the MP joint rolled forward, per this half-assed diagram:

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/Sidheshooter/PeP3/M-P%20joint%20roll%20forwad_zpsmybtv4wa.jpg (http://s578.photobucket.com/user/Sidheshooter/media/PeP3/M-P%20joint%20roll%20forwad_zpsmybtv4wa.jpg.html)


I hasten to add that this is platform dependant; I personally feel differently about revolvers, where I prefer to just curl both thumbs down if they fit. The thumbs curled is going to give great strength, but it will by design have give and flexibility to it; that's part of why one can grab a clubbed weapon and hit something hard without either dropping the weapon, or busting up the bones in their thumb/hand from the energy transfer. I think we will see more people identifying this tradeoff (strength/recoil control vs stability) as this thread progresses, since that's just the design of the hand. I'll also add the caveat that I am *far* from the best shooter on this board; I'm sure there are examples of monster fast shooters to be found using all the various grip variations, within reason.

[Clobbersaurus]

I did a quick and dirty assessment today at the range. I only had two mags worth of ammo left after the DOTW's.

3X5 cards at 7 yards, ten shots with thumb flagged and ten shots with thumb curled. SHO at a medium pace.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC04058_zps5o9o6u4f.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC04058_zps5o9o6u4f.jpg.html)

What does this tell me? Virtually nothing. Groups are terrible with each. Thumb curled offered slightly better recoil control. I have no idea where the 10th round went on the top target. It's possible I only loaded 9 rounds I guess...

[StraitR]

I have no idea where the 10th round went on the top target.

Looks like two doubles to me.


https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5775/20608776113_0a0a478797_c.jpg

[CCT125US]

Looks like two doubles to me.


https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5775/20608776113_0a0a478797_c.jpg

Agreed on double double. Looking at the consistency between the two and outliers on each, I would say for this session, the thumb down was better. Next session, alternate positions / cards after each shot. This may prevent being warmed up after the first card or alternately fatigued. Evaluate over a number of sessions. I also think you could switch to a 3x3 Post-It. Either way, good shooting that is solid.

[BCL]

I would figure out what works better for recoil control and practice that in dry fire until the sights don't move. Verify in live fire, if there are issues rinse and repeat. 10k trigger presses later you should be good to go (not being a dick, trying to be helpful). CCT125US' method, your #2 method, or Defoor's method should work well.

You could also try this method:

https://youtu.be/45QhpvY9LZc?t=24s

[Clobbersaurus]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I thought that I had one double in the first card, I didn't consider that I might have two!

I'll continue to focus on WHO/SHO in dry fire and at the range. Some of my DOTW performances today confirm I need more work. Based on what I saw today, I think I'll continue to play with it for a bit. 2" dots would have been a much better targets instead of the cards, but they were the smallest targets I had today.

[167]

I run thumb up.

Mike Seeklander teaches thumb up and gun vertical, not canted inboard. Took me a while to buy into it, but the results couldn't be argued, not for me anyway.

[45dotACP]

Thumbs down for me, and I shoot my 1911 that way 😎

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[GLB]

I use my thumb down similar to what Kyle Defoor shows. I used to keep my thumb up and maintain the same gun hand grip as with shooting two handed. It took some time getting use to the thumb down but I see the benefits for me. My groups are basically the same with thumb up or down, however my front sight recovers quicker and I can drive the gun from one target to another better.

[Peally]

Thumbs up here, slight cant in the gun but not crazy at 45 degrees. Shooting an HK45 with thumbs touching the gun I've found I activate the decocker while shooting, so my thumbs are subconsciously conditioned to stay the hell off the frame at all times.