Week 128: Basic Engagement Practice Session Part 1

[Mr_White]

Week 128: Basic Engagement Practice Session Part 1

Results may be posted until October 4th, 2015

Designed by: Gabe White
Range: 7 yards
Target: One silhouette target of shooter's choice that has a body target zone (COM) and a head target zone (CNS)
Start Position: Holstered or ready, shooter's choice
Rounds Fired: 40

This is intended as a short and quick practice session of some basic engagement sequences that might be used in self-defense. The timer is going to be used, but only as a witness. There is no particular par time. The intention is to shoot in an on-demand/match pace manner and give our best attempt at making all the hits without delay. Any silhouette target can be used. Start position is holstered, unless range restrictions don't allow it. In that case, use the ready position of your choice.

Procedure: Shoot strings 1-5 while standing still, and record your hits and times. Then shoot strings 6-10, but now incorporating movement before and after shooting. Record hits and times. For example, String 6 will be to take a lateral step during the draw or presentation from ready, shoot 6 COM while standing still, then take another lateral step (same or opposite direction) after shooting.

String 1: shoot 6 COM
String 2: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS
String 3: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS
String 4: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS
String 5: shoot 2 CNS

String 6: shoot 6 COM, incorporating movement
String 7: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement
String 8: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement
String 9: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS, incorporating movement
String 10: shoot 2 CNS, incorporating movement

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)
Target used
Times and hits for each of the ten strings
Anything you noticed

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

[MVS]

String 1: shoot 6 COM 3.32
String 2: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS 2.72
String 3: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS 2.78
String 4: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS 4.31
String 5: shoot 2 CNS 2.52

String 6: shoot 6 COM, incorporating movement 3.12
String 7: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement 2.93
String 8: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement 3.00
String 9: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS, incorporating movement 3.83
String 10: shoot 2 CNS, incorporating movement 3.36 Fumbled draw.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used) G19 w/RMR Fricke Seraphim, t-shirt concealment
Target used TxT
Times and hits for each of the ten strings clean, times above
Anything you noticed Definitely ran it slower when not using par times. On the second run I never forgot to move while drawing as I do that quite often, but forget to move post shooting quite a bit.

[Clobbersaurus]

tring 1: shoot 6 COM 3.26 clean
String 2: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS 2.33 clean
String 3: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS 2.49 - I miss CNS
String 4: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS 3.19 clean:D
String 5: shoot 2 CNS 2.08 clean

String 6: shoot 6 COM, incorporating movement 3.11 - 1 miss just outside A zone
String 7: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement 2.70 clean
String 8: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement 2.24 - 1 miss CNS
String 9: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS, incorporating movement 3.52 - 1 miss COM
String 10: shoot 2 CNS, incorporating movement 2.52 clean

Equipment: Beretta Centurion Clone - 9mm, AIWB under a polo shirt.
Target: IPSC classic target, with two overlapping 3x5 cards for CNS. Photo below from string 2:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC04046_zps9mqevpct.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC04046_zps9mqevpct.jpg.html)

I liked this drill, it would be interesting to have PAR times for each string that Mr. White thought would be suitable for advanced shooters, or his standards. Like MVS above, I moved fine when drawing strings 6 - 10, but often forgot to move post shooting.

[MD7305]

1.) 3.39 sec. -1 Miss
2.) 3.00 sec. Clean
3.) 2.60 sec Clean
4.) 3.94 sec Clean
5.) 2.24 sec., -1 Miss
6.) 3.14 sec. -1 Miss
7.) 2.89 sec. -1 Miss (COM)
8.) 3.12 sec. Clean
9.) 4.24 sec. Clean
10.) 2.55 sec. Clean

Glock 22/TLR1, Safariland 6360, full duty belt.
IDPA Target

From looking at my times the movement slowed me down although I got the same number of hits, overall. My misses on strings 1, 6 &7 were in the "-1" portion of the IDPA target so I ruled them as a miss since they weren't in the "-0" zone. The miss on string 5 was low and the result of rushing, snatching the trigger.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pr1042]

First time DOTWer

String 1: 5.00
String 2: 3.06
String 3: 2.75
String 4: 4.80 - 2 CNS, stacked 2 shots on top of each but just happened to be slightly below the head box
String 5: 2.66 - 1 CNS, yanked trigger on first shot and threw it to the left collarbone area
String 6: 4.04
String 7: 2.90
String 8: 3.07
String 9: 4.43
String 10: 3.43

- SP01 Shadow in Bladetech DOS holster
- IDPA target
- Could have used an hourglass instead of timer for some of the strings. Sadly the best thing for me is to think less while shooting (and just shoot) so movement is a good distraction. Still getting used to the gamer gun from years of striker fired but it's slowly coming together for me

[taadski]

Sig 226
Level III retention holster (6360)
USPSA metric target

1. 2.35
2. 2.04
3. 1.77
4. 2.67 -1 body
5. 1.76

6. 2.30. -1 body
7. 2.03 -1 head
8. 1.86
9. 2.88. -1 head
10. 1.87

Comments: Both bodies out were within an inch at the A zone edge. I'm alright with that, although I didn't call them there which isn't ideal. The head misses steam my gourd though. :mad: Both were an over-swing issue as I transitioned up from the body while settling into position. I saw the respective shots break right over the top. One of em caught the very top edge of the head but didn't break the perf. It would appear I need to pay a bit more attention….


http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0650_zpsc93863d0.jpg


http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0651_zpsd4a1abc9.jpg




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[backtrail540]

CZ p09 w/ x300u, under a polo, JMCK AIWB lightbearing
USPSA target

1. - 4.02
2. - 2.68
3. - 2.96
4. - 4.24 -1 body
5. - 2.27

6. - 3.97
7. - 2.86
8. - 3.18
9. - 4.41 -1 body
10. - 2.53 -1 head

I ran this with my backup p09 wearing an x300u. I recently got the lightbearing aiwb from JM and wanted to see how it was outside of dryfire. This gun has stock sights vs my normal p09 wearing cgw sights. I was pretty conservative with my times, going for match pace as directed above. I do remember a few times during the movement portion there were a few runs where I had to tell myself to get moving after shooting instead of instantly wanting to holster and look at the target. Maybe I should incorporate a bit more movement into and out of shooting in future sessions to not get locked into finishing and instantly holstering after the hard break/decock.

[JHC]

Love it.
But you can have one lateral step. I'm going to haul ass win or lose. :D

[Mr_White]

Equipment used: Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt

Target used: USPSA Metric

Times and hits for each of the ten strings:

String 1: shoot 6 COM - 1.98, -0
String 2: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS - 1.45, -0
String 3: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS - 1.50, -0
String 4: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS - 2.34, -0
String 5: shoot 2 CNS - 1.55, -0

String 6: shoot 6 COM, incorporating movement - 2.08, -0
String 7: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement - 1.54, -0
String 8: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement - 1.58, -0
String 9: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS, incorporating movement - 2.22, -0
String 10: shoot 2 CNS, incorporating movement - 1.38, -1 (in the head box, but not what I would call a CNS hit)

Anything you noticed: This is a short skills practice that I've used intermittently for a few years. I have been light on practice lately, so I was pretty happy with how this came out. When I do this set of drills, I tend to look for what I think are anatomically effective hits, irrespective of the zones on the actual target, which I often disagree with at least a little. When I use a USPSA Metric target like this time, that translates into trying to hit the upper half of the lower A-zone as well as just a little higher in the chest, and I don't concern myself with strictly adhering to the upper A-zone in the head, which I think is a little on the small side, though I don't want to see them in the periphery of the head box either.


I liked this drill, it would be interesting to have PAR times for each string that Mr. White thought would be suitable for advanced shooters, or his standards.

I usually hate par times, unless they are tailored to a specific person doing specific tasks. They often end up forcing a person into an artificially fast or slow pace, both of which can help cause errors in gunhandling and shooting. They can work well if used right, but a lot of times there are problems with generalizing them.

For me personally, here is what I want to see/think I should see on these drills in a practice context:

For a Bill Drill (String 1), I'm looking for under 2 seconds clean from concealment. Ideally I'd like to see 1.8x and/or a much tighter cluster of shots than the entire lower A-zone. I was very happy with the 1.98 because the shots were pretty tightly clustered in the upper half of the lower A-zone. That is a good Bill Drill for me. The 2.08 incorporating movement was a hair slow, but hits were good, and I guess I can forgive it since there was more going on than in a straight up Bill Drill.

For a Failure Drill (String 2 and 3), I'm looking for 1.5 seconds clean from concealment. I can push it quite a bit more, and ideally I'd like to see ~1.2-1.3 on that task. But that's the kind of time I'll see if I push it in practice, and the head shot gets iffy if I am not completely right on with the up-transition. I'm not really looking for the head shot to be strictly in the upper A-zone, but I don't want to see it in the periphery of the head either. So I was happy with Strings 2 and 3, and accepted the slightly slower times on Strings 7 and 8 since more was going on (movement.)

For the 'larger failure drill' (String 4 - four COM and two CNS), I begrudgingly recognize that 2.5 seconds is a pretty fair time to look for with good hits. I would like to see under 2 seconds, same as on a Bill Drill. But, the head shots are probably going to cost just a little bit of time and under 2 seconds on-demand is a little ambitious. I still try though. If I see ~2.3 or so on this, I'm not too unhappy. The 2.34 on String 4 was a hair slower than I would like. The 2.22 on String 9 was fine, considering the additional movement.

For the two head shots (String 5), I think I should see 1.5 seconds or less, though I am allowing a little bigger target zone than the upper A proper. What I'd like to see is about 1.3 or so. And I figure adding movement will probably end up costing one or two tenths. I would have liked a little faster time on String 5, and on String 10 I needed to be just a tiny bit more careful since I put one of the shots toward the periphery of the head.

I hope those explanations give you at least some of what you wanted, Clobbersaurus!

[Clobbersaurus]

It does, thank you.

Your personal standards are insanely tough, that is some very expert level shooting.

It gives me a good idea of what can be done though and something to benchmark my own progress against.

[Mr_White]

what can be done

That is what it is all about for me!

Here's how I arrived at those as pars/standards/goals for myself:

Identify the performance level for top-of-the-heap, champion, properly equipped, competitive shooters. Then work to duplicate or improve upon their performance using my own chosen gear. It's that simple.

A sub-2 second Bill Drill is a longstanding benchmark for Master class USPSA shooters using race gear. A lot of people do a little better than that, but sub-2 is a pretty decent standard at least, especially if you reduce the target size down from the full lower A-zone. So I ran with that.

About 1.5 seconds is the time Ben Stoeger, Robert Vogel, and Dave Sevigny are documented to have done on the first three strings of the IDPA Classifier (two body, one head at 7 yards), at least in one recorded instance for each of them So my goal is ~1.5 on-demand, and better than that in practice and as I improve over time.

Four body and two head - that's not a widely practiced drill, but it's six shots, so that's where I want to say screw the math, I want 2 seconds or less, just like the six shot Bill Drill. Realistically, it is harder than a Bill Drill and that's where I begrudgingly accept a bit over 2 seconds. But it's similar to the historical USPSA Master class standard for a Bill Drill at least.

Two head/CNS shots - with the FAST such a heavily practiced thing here at PF, a sense of times can easily be had on this. Using a 3x5 card as an example, Dave Sevigny shot the pair in 1.62 seconds on his world record runs on the FAST. So about 1.6 seconds is good. AIWB may be faster than a strong side draw, so really I'm looking for less than that. I have done it enough to know that when I do it well, the time is more like ~1.3x for the pair. So that becomes the goal time to attack for on-demand performance.

Identifying top-level performance and then trying to match it using tougher gear is a great way to improve. Doesn't mean that performance will be factually realized, but used as a goal it is highly productive in realizing improvement, sometimes huge improvement.

[taadski]

That is what it is all about for me!

Here's how I arrived at those as pars/standards/goals for myself:



Gold.

[Clobbersaurus]

Thank you for the further explanation Mr White. Your last post has lots of nuggets I can use.

[Range1]

Equipment: M&P .40FS, vest, CompTac OWB holster
Target: IDPA

String 1: shoot 6 COM - 5.28
String 2: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS - 3.34
String 3: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS - 3.10
String 4: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS - 5.15
String 5: shoot 2 CNS - 2.79

String 6: shoot 6 COM, incorporating movement - 4.89
String 7: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement - 3.44
String 8: shoot 2 COM and 1 CNS, incorporating movement - 4.04
String 9: shoot 4 COM and 2 CNS, incorporating movement - 5.21
String 10: shoot 2 CNS, incorporating movement - 3.23

All clean. Pretty slow times, but not bad for me.

[That Guy]

Oops, mixed up my notes.