How to train shooting on the move?

[60167]

Move and shoot? Or move to shoot?

I’ve been trying to implement more “dynamic shooting” during my range sessions. Lately I’ve been devoting a third of my time and ammo supply to practice shooting and reloading while walking in various directions.

A course of fire goes something like this:

Shoot 3-5 rounds while moving back and to the left/right.
Shoot 3.-5 rounds while moving laterally.
Shoot 3-5 rounds while backing.

Sometimes the string will be shot with 5 rounds split between two magazines so I need to reload while moving.

Sometimes I’ll tape some “imaginary barricades” on the floor of my indoor range and practice moving between them while firing, or sometimes moving to them, and then firing. The idea is that I’m moving laterally relative to the target while also shooting from various distances.

I shoot on an indoor range. I’m the only person occupying the space at that time. I don’t have any actual cover or barricades in this space, so I have to tape cover or bring soccer cones. I shoot from my duty gear and I’m typically shooting the P-F.com 6”circle with 1” Square taped on an FBI Q target. I try to keep my hits in the circle (or in the bottle).

We’ve been doing a lot of shooting on the move drills during our monthly swat range sessions, and it’s a part of out state’s qualification course, so that’s a clue someone thinks it’s somewhat important.


My questions are as follows:

How much do you train shooting on the move? Is it a priority to you?
Do you move then shoot, or move while shooting, or both?
Do you have any suggestions for drills?


Thanks

[breakingtime91]

I try to do at least two drills with shooting on the move per range session. I'll do a bill drill on the move from 10-3yards (simulates closing with an attacker). the other is shooting while moving backwards, I usually do 2-3 rounds and then break for a piece of "cover" and shoot the target a couple more times.

[HopetonBrown]

Sound like Hackathorn's Compass Drill.

I believe Paul Howe said he never shot while moving in his career. The only moving while shooting I do is that particular part of the IDPA Classifier. Moving forward from 10 yard to 5 yard line, 2 rounds on each of the 3 targets. I have a hard enough time hitting the target when standing still. I did do Pat Mac's Grid Of Fire last week, but that's move then shoot.

[Duces Tecum]

I would think that shooting while moving results in suppression fire. There's no high probability of a sound hit, but it might keep their head(s) down. If I expected to actually hit something I was aiming for, I'd probably shoot after moving. There will be somebody along shortly to correct me.

[johncorey]

My questions are as follows:

How much do you train shooting on the move? Is it a priority to you?
Do you move then shoot, or move while shooting, or both?
Do you have any suggestions for drills?


Almost every pistol range session I train a shoot on the move. My cold, on demand drill is two 8" plates at 5-7 yards, roughly two people width in between. From concealment, facing down range, but looking over right shoulder, positioned at cone1, draw on buzzer, acquire target, begin 3-4 rounds engagement on T1 while stepping off to my LEFT REAR, reload, 3-4 rounds engagement on T2, coming to a stop on cone2 which is 3-4 yards LEFT, and 1-2 yards REAR of cone1. Time is usually around 4-5 seconds.

This is purely in the context of being a CCH situation. Not LEO and not MIL. I feel it is imperative to change your attackers sight picture he/she/they have on you. The only way to do that is by getting off the X via movement. Mr. Givens has far more solid data points on this.

[Ptrlcop]

I think there is a lot to be learned visually and in trigger control from SOTM.

[Jay Cunningham]

It's a good question, and one which I think hasn't had enough thought applied to it given various contexts. I know what I've been *told* over the years... but a lot of what I've been *told* doesn't necessarily seen to jive with my reality.

One thing I do know is that in various drills and exercises which I've participated in - ones which stress just how important it's supposed to be - the reality is a lot of missed shots.

[Hunter Osborne]

In my practice and training (USMC table 2 and up, various carbine and pistol classes) and competing (IDPA and USPSA plus range games with training partners), what I have gathered is this:

1. I can move efficiently
2. I can shoot efficiently
3. I cannot do both at the same time.

I think that it entirely depends on the accuracy demands of the scenario. If all I'm trying to hit is a USPSA target from 5 yards, with 2 rounds in the scoring zones, then I can move much faster than if I'm going for an A zone head shot on the same target. I can envision scenarios where it would be necessary to move and shoot in a self defense or LE engagement (for instance, if there is no cover available to you or you are attempting to suppress a target with accurate gunfire while you are moving to a position of advantage) therefore it should be something that it practiced. The frequency of that practice, for me at least, is low because I think there are much more important skills to develop and I already know how to jump out of the way of stuff.

As for getting off the X, I really liked what Travis Haley had to say about it on one of the videos he did with Panteo. Basically he emphasized moving offline with not just a step or two, but an athletic side shuffle (think guarding someone moving in basketball) but he mentioned that he will only move as far as he needs to draw the gun if there is no cover available. For me, when I practice this on timed drills, I usually end up 7-10 feet away from my starting position by the time my gun is up and on target.
I was fortunate enough to get to attend the Evolution of Mindset class put on by LMS Defense a few months ago, and I found myself doing a fair bit of CQB in an old office building, with varying degrees of lighting. Long story short, most of the shots I took there that involved moving and shooting were taken while moving forward or at a forward angle to the target (towards a position of advantage) or laterally in an arcing motion around the target, so that's what I end up practicing.

[60167]

The more I contemplate this, the more I can think of scenarios that involve engaging a threat that pops up while I'm already moving. For example, while approaching a vehicle during a traffic stop (holstered) and an armed bad guy pops out of the car. Or when I'm searching a building and a threat makes itself known while I'm mid step.

Maybe the thought process should include drawing and firing while moving as part of the equation.


Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

[johncorey]

Feel free to come out to Mill Creek sometime to shake some of this out prior to going "live".

[Hunter Osborne]

The more I contemplate this, the more I can think of scenarios that involve engaging a threat that pops up while I'm already moving.

For someone in your line of work that rings especially true. If you are #2 through a door and have to engage a threat, freezing in the door to do so will cause a major traffic jam and leave #1 hanging in the wind. Drawing on a drawn gun is another thing to consider. Action is faster than reaction, and if someone already has the drop on you then moving out of the way is probably a pretty smart thing to do, but if you are close enough to them to where you can get shots off with 100% accountability, then why not shoot while you're at it?

[LSP552]

For someone in your line of work that rings especially true. If you are #2 through a door and have to engage a threat, freezing in the door to do so will cause a major traffic jam and leave #1 hanging in the wind.

Absolutely this. Shooting on the move is a critical skill for SWAT personnel.

It's also a tool in the tool box for a patrol officer or anyone who caries a gun. Like most things, the best course of action is situational. At arms distance, it doesn't take a GM level shooter to make hits, and untrained personnel accomplish this on a regular basis. The ability to get hits drops significantly for the untrained as distance increases. I'm a firm believer that at most law enforcement/CCW interactions, drawing, shooting and moving laterally at the same time is a great response for those close range encounters.

At intermediate distances, hauling ass for cover might be the best response. Again, so much is situational and good force on force training is needed to refine square range practice.

[Surf]

There's a time to move, a time to shoot, a time to haul ass and a time to shoot while moving.

I know not everyone is kicking in doors and clearing structures in a team environment, but if you are, it is my opinion that you MUST be able to shoot while moving. I know there was a day in age where the shooting didn't start until you posted up, but if you are working in that environment and if that is only what your skills allow for, then you need more practice or you need to find a different assignment. If you are a competitor it seems to give an edge to those who do it well.

[Mr_White]

I'm with the majority here that there are times to shoot then move, move then shoot, shoot standing still, and to shoot on the move. I think space, time, angles, barriers, the location of threats and the location of bystanders, plus shooter skill, will all play into the individual equation of which is best in a given circumstance.

It seems to me that being able to start moving quickly and draw and make accurate hits (high thoracic cavity or head shots) makes for a very strong immediate action drill so to speak.

No comment about shooting on the move as it relates to SWAT because that is not something I know about.

I got really excited about shooting on the move a number of years ago, and spent probably a year or more practicing that to the exclusion of almost everything else. I'm pretty happy with what I can do with it now.

Interestingly, I don't shoot on the move nearly as much in competition as I do in self-defense drills, because in USPSA, there are usually enough targets requiring enough shots in a small enough span of distance where the targets are available, that I just can't be moving at full speed or I will run out of space before I've done all the shooting that needs to be done.

It may take some work to get there, but shooting at a high rate of movement can be done with good accuracy. No question it's easier to have certainty in shooting if you don't move. I've been pleased with the results of just about everyone I've tried to teach this to though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpU3l_3DiTA

If you go to 1:45 of this next video, this is what shooting on the move usually looks like for me in USPSA, given how many targets there are to address.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJIhmOh7gDI

[Luke]

^^^ that is insane. Why are you not a professional shooter with big name sponsors?

[Peally]

Some people aren't in it for the sponsors ;)

Myself, I'm in it to be more competent and it feels good to destroy people in any leaderboard. Sponsors take a damn fine hobby and turn it into work, ruining it overnight :D

[Gray222]

My questions are as follows:

How much do you train shooting on the move? Is it a priority to you?
Do you move then shoot, or move while shooting, or both?
Do you have any suggestions for drills?

Every chance I get.
Depends on the situation.
Drill I recommend doing:

3 IPSC targets (or vtac skeletons, organs are good) about 5 yards away (for starters, this drill can be made more difficult).

Make sure the distance between the starting point and ending point is no less than 10 yards.

Time yourself sprinting from start to finish, without gun drawn or anything else, this at max sprinting speed.

For the drill, you have to start at a standing and concealed position facing the targets. On command/buzzer/gunshot, you sprint, drawing and firing, at one of the three targets (your choice I normally consider the others no shoots), which you must put at least 4 A-Zone hits or vital organ hits into. The par time is your sprinting time without draw.

If you run three consecutive drills meeting your sprint time then do it other-strong hand. If you meet the time still, move the targets back to 7 yards.

My par time is right under 3.5x seconds for 7 yards, left or right handed (.1-.2 seconds difference).

If your gun handling skills are not sufficient enough to do this safely then practice dry first a few times and then proceed forward with the drill un-timed.

There are several evolution's to this drill, meaning more complex with tighter time requirements.

Several ways to effectively do this drill, either focus on your front sight or use back plate shooting.

Don't sell yourself short and game the sprinting. It should be the equivalent to the "off shit!" moment of speed movement.

[YVK]

I was hoping you'd post that video, Gabe. Best evidence that one can move "for real" and shoot well at the same time.

I don't have an access to a range where I can move and shoot live. Ability to shoot and move, however constrained by a course of fire, was one of the reasons why I got into games. My preference for USPSA over IDPA is based on many things, but very artificial nature of shooting on the move in IDPA is one of them.

I practice SOM in dry fire about once a week.

[M2CattleCo]

I practice shooting on the move quite a bit, mostly get off the X type of short movement with a couple of shots taken from retention, the movement and gunfire to allow distance/time enough to get a shot package put together to place rounds with more accuracy, and also forward or arcing movement while shooting to the side to replicate suppressive fire while moving to cover or whatever/wherever.

One thing that I have issue with is training myself to shoot and move backwards too much. While doing that under induced stress I've found that target fixation coupled with the adrenaline makes my movements tend to speed up and my peripheral awareness narrows. Backing up is a double shot of risk for a fall since: 1) Can't see where you're going 2) Are in a position of compromised balance with momentum working against you if you trip on something.

How do the experienced guys here handle moving backwards?

[Chris Rhines]

A few things I've found, about shooting on the move:
- You'll never be able to shoot as fast or as accurately on the move, as you will posted up.
- The vast majority of people who try to shoot on the move, be it in training, practice, or competition, move far too slowly to do any good.
- You will almost always spend less time overall running to a single position and shooting your target array, versus covering the same distance while shooting the same targets on the move.

There's an SOM drill that I shoot almost every time I get an outdoor range day. To set it up, you need two static steel plates, two shooting boxes of some kind, and three USPSA or IDPA targets. Set up the shooting boxes about 15' apart, call them Box A and B. Put a steel plate directly in front of each box, far enough away to make it a challenging shot (I use 8" round plates at 15 yards.) Those are S1 and S2. Set your cardboard targets between the boxes, 7 yards distant, and spread out however you like. Call them T1-T3.

Starting in box A, on signal, fire one hit on S1, then engage T1-T3 with two rounds each while moving to box B. Once in box B, fire one hit on S2. Record your overall time and hits on paper. Shot accountability is really important for this drill, so I count it as a failure if I have more than one hit outside the A zone.

The point of this drill is to give the shooter some significant incentive to move quickly between shooting positions, while still getting good hits on the move. I try to move just fast enough to get consistent A-zone hits while shooting, then take off like a bat outta hell once I break shot number six. If you find that you're getting all Alphas while moving flat-out, great! Either move the targets back, or cut down the scoring zones with hard cover/no-shoots. You can also change up the box and target positions to do lateral, oblique, or forward-backward movement.

[JHC]

Somewhat off topic I observed yesterday that my shooting on a brisk move was enhanced a great deal by a cylinder bore 870. ;)

[Alpha Sierra]

- You will almost always spend less time overall running to a single position and shooting your target array, versus covering the same distance while shooting the same targets on the move.

I let the hit factor decide

[Sal Picante]

Move and shoot? Or move to shoot?

I’ve been trying to implement more “dynamic shooting” during my range sessions. Lately I’ve been devoting a third of my time and ammo supply to practice shooting and reloading while walking in various directions.

A course of fire goes something like this:

Shoot 3-5 rounds while moving back and to the left/right.
Shoot 3.-5 rounds while moving laterally.
Shoot 3-5 rounds while backing.

Sometimes the string will be shot with 5 rounds split between two magazines so I need to reload while moving.

Sometimes I’ll tape some “imaginary barricades” on the floor of my indoor range and practice moving between them while firing, or sometimes moving to them, and then firing. The idea is that I’m moving laterally relative to the target while also shooting from various distances.

I shoot on an indoor range. I’m the only person occupying the space at that time. I don’t have any actual cover or barricades in this space, so I have to tape cover or bring soccer cones. I shoot from my duty gear and I’m typically shooting the P-F.com 6”circle with 1” Square taped on an FBI Q target. I try to keep my hits in the circle (or in the bottle).

We’ve been doing a lot of shooting on the move drills during our monthly swat range sessions, and it’s a part of out state’s qualification course, so that’s a clue someone thinks it’s somewhat important.


My questions are as follows:

How much do you train shooting on the move? Is it a priority to you?
Do you move then shoot, or move while shooting, or both?
Do you have any suggestions for drills?


Thanks


How much do you train shooting on the move? Is it a priority to you?
I practice it a fair amount, though it is not the biggest priority... Generally, I have one or two targets that I'll need to pick-up on during competition...
Most of the time, the targets are close. The risk of missing on a far target because you're moving is too high.

Do you move then shoot, or move while shooting, or both?
I do way more, "Move, then shoot..." I can really run the gun way faster when not moving.


Do you have any suggestions for drills?
How much or your qualification is based on SOTM? Just putting this out there that maybe you should train exclusively for that/those scenarios.

Other simple drills:
The walking forward then backward with 3 targets in front of you is a great exercise. (start at ~8 yards, come up to 5 yards, then retreat - 3 yards between targets)
The walking laterally-left to right, then back again, with 3 targets at 5 yards is a great exercise. (3 yards between targets)

Focus on walking at a brisk pace: if much slower, why bother moving? If much faster, why bother shooting?
Bend the knees and stay low...

Pulling in the arms slightly helps keep the gun from bouncing a lot.

Like this (Chris Keen): (Notice how the cadence slows a lot when he gets further out...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn90qyu9bgQ

[Gray222]

sooooooo

http://www.ajc.com/videos/news/dash-cam-video-shows-moments-before-dekalb-officer/vDbKRC/

Officer pursues a vehicle, vehicle crashes, officer pursues two males on foot.

Second male has gun in hand and the officer fails at drawing his pistol on the move, but does so after a tug or two, then begins to shoot, on the move. Takes one in the shoulder in the process.

Since this thread is about moving and shooting (not tactics) it did not seem to me from the video that the officer slowed down once he started shooting, granted it's obstructed.

Also he's right handed, target was on his left side, he had to turn his body - though it didn't look like he turtled he did seem to want to slow down to get hits.

[Chris Rhines]

Interesting. The video is far enough off that you really can't analyze much, but it looked to me like the officer took a hit before he ever started shooting.

[Gray222]

Interesting. The video is far enough off that you really can't analyze much, but it looked to me like the officer took a hit before he ever started shooting.

I'm not seeing that, but the angle sucks and its pretty obscure. He does slow down and start shooting, but he wasn't doing much moving and shooting.

[johncorey]

Just came across this pretty slick vid from T. Jarrett


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncg9iFgT7GA