Curse you, GLOCK!

[psalms144.1]

So, with all the chatter and the "I won't be able to getititis" going around about the VP9, I'd decided to get one. Of course, can't find any LE versions anywhere for love or money (willing to follow leads if anyone has any).

Yesterday, I got the call that we had three people who HAD TO qualify today, so this AM I made the three hour drive to their office to run the qualification. One of the shooters was a "problem child" who struggles mightily with the issued P239 DAK in 40. Got through the qualification, but, after about 100 trigger pulls, hands were shaking, and we'd reach the point of diminishing returns on shooting.

So, I switched the shooter to my Gen4 G19. IMMEDIATE day/night improvement, shooting Bill Drills and El Prez, followed by Dot Torture. This shooter, who BARELY broke 240 with the issued pistol, shot a 48/50 Dot Torture first time ever shooting a Glock of any kind.

But, wait, Glocks aren't accurate! That's why I need a VP9...

I shooed everyone off the range eventually, and decided to shoot the qual myself. I had not fired or dry fired a single shot since June, it's been that kind of summer. So, I was prepped for an underwhelming performance, and shot 300/300. How can this be?

So, I switched to my G26 BUG which I had to blow dust bunnies off from ankle carry before shooting. 300/300

Switched to the G43, which I've only shot about 200 rounds through to date - 294/300 (that little sucker really squirms when your hands are sweaty)

Back to the G19, shot the qual again, this time keeping the timer for all engagements short of the 15 yard line at 3 seconds (the time limit for the 2-shot strings at the 3 yard line in our Course of Fire). The COF is 6 rounds (2/string) at 3 yards, 6 rounds (3/string) at 5 yards, 18 rounds (3/string with two "failure drills, including SHO and WHO shooting) at 7 yards, and 6 rounds (3/string) at 10 yards. Shot the 20 second 15-yard engagements (6/per string) and the 25-second 25-yard engagements (6/per string) with the par set at 10 seconds. Results - 294/300.

But, I NEED a new gun, I really do!

This is precisely why I love to Hate GLOCKs. No matter the reasons why I "have to" switch to something mo' bettah, the range always makes my arguments seem, well, contrived.

But, maybe with a VP9 I'd shoot better than a 300/300...

[Peally]

The money would be better spent on practice ammo but I'm an indian/arrow type of guy :D

[Luke]

The HK will make points you didn't even know existed.. Ever wanted to shoot a 320/300? Gonna need an HK for that..

[Totem Polar]

That's right: are you gonna give 110 percent, or settle for mediocre perfection?

[ralph]

Just go ahead and buy one..You know you want one..

[JHC]

The HK will make points you didn't even know existed.. Ever wanted to shoot a 320/300? Gonna need an HK for that..

Right! Like the Army's extended scale for PT studs that earn over 300 on the APFT. :D

[JBP55]

At 25 yards I shoot a G34 best and the G17/VP9 about the same.

[Kimura]

If you had used a VP 9, you probably would have scored 300/300 every time with group sizes about half of what they were. Does that help in your quest for a new pistol?

Honestly I think we all have a preference for one pistol or another, but I really don't think it makes a huge difference. Some do some things a little better than others and vice versa, but overall, provided one is a decent shooter who has experience with the different systems, I don't think it makes a lot of difference what one chooses as long as s/he is comfortable with it or if it's issued, gets the proper amount of reps to get comfortable with it.

In the case of the shooter with the Sig, did he re-shoot the course with the Glock? If so, what did he score? It would be interesting if he had the stress of having to qualify with the Glock. If that was the case, I think it would be interesting to compare.

[breakingtime91]

The HK will make points you didn't even know existed.. Ever wanted to shoot a 320/300? Gonna need an HK for that..

heard it was actually 330... but what do I know, I'm a heather who carries a g19..

[Patrin]

I'd try the VP9 just to see what you think...the ergonomics are the heat.

I just purchased a second VP9 LE from Georgia gun store and they had some in stock yesterday, but shows 'sold out' today.

Regular model in stock:

http://shop.georgiagunstore.com/index.php?crn=2241&rn=49668&action=show_detail

VP 40 LE in stock:

http://shop.georgiagunstore.com/index.php?crn=2241&rn=51758&action=show_detail

VP 40 Regular model:

http://shop.georgiagunstore.com/index.php?crn=2241&rn=51757&action=show_detail

Great business to deal with and fast shipping.

...and I'm really liking my VP 40...very, very good shooter and low recoil...for a fo-tay.

[JonInWA]

Yup...you NEED a VP9....and you NEED new magazines (of course, both readily available and at reasonable prices...); you NEED a new holster(s); you NEED to build up the necessary muscle memory on the new gun/rig...

Seriously, if you were looking at a "first" gun, or hadn't committed to any specific platform, the VP9's probably an excellent choice. It's certainly played to respectable reviews from respectable individuals. And at least they're a reasonably priced HK product. But at the end of the JonInWA day, I shoot well with my Glocks, I index well with my Glocks, I have years/thousands of rounds (and tens of thousands of dry-fire iterations) worth of muscle memory built up on my Glocks, I'm satisfied with my holster/rig set-ups, and I have acceptable amounts of magazines for all of my Glocks. I really don't have an suitable rationale/incentive to swim the VP9 waters-the squeeze simply isn't going to significantly (if indeed at all) increase the amount or quality of the juice.

Not to say it's necessarily a bad thing per se to get something new-one just has to objectively evaluate on a realistic cost-effectiveness matrix. Yeah, I'm a buzz-kill here, aren't I?...

Best, Jon

[johncorey]

Assimilate unto the Collective. No one escapes the BORG.

[45dotACP]

I'm on the wagon with the "A VP9 is what...600 bucks...that is close to 3,000 rounds of 9mm...I'd buy some more ammo" crowd. Ammo is expensive, so I try not to go spending my burret money on new guns.

I'd make yourself a performance promise...for instance "If I can shoot X (insert very difficult standard) on (insert drill or shooting activity) then I will buy a new gun and chase that standard with that one."

I have made a deal with myself that once I make M class in USPSA, I will buy a Wilson 92G.


Hasn't happened yet, but I am getting better...

[Talionis]

If you want a VP9, get a VP9. It is very unlikely that you will be better at shooting faces with an HK than with a Glock/Sig/Beretta/CZ/etc. but that isn't exactly the point, is it? There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to learn a different pistol than what one shoots currently, but it is a bit ridiculous to do so because of some perceived huge performance difference, especially the better one is at shooting. Within USPSA, a number of pretty high level shooters have switched from metal frame guns to the Sig 320; not because it is better, but because it was made worth their while and they didn't feel it would put them at a disadvantage. If it had been incentivized enough, those same shooters would be shooting Glocks, or HK's, etc. For me, the VP9 is more fun to shoot than the Glocks I've owned over the years, and I don't perceive any disadvantage to shooting it. That has been enough for me to switch to the VP9 for carry from Glocks several months ago, and now that my USPSA season is basically over, I'm switching to HK from CZ for games as well. It also helps that my VP9 is so far one of the most accurate and reliable guns I've owned to date.

Rather than thinking about these new guns in terms of "what advantage do I get" I generally think about them in terms of "do I like it, and are there any disadvantages to switching to it?" It helps not to overcomplicate things.

[LSP552]

Switched to the G43, which I've only shot about 200 rounds through to date - 294/300 (that little sucker really squirms when your hands are sweaty)



Kevin,

I'm starting to work with the G43 a bit also. I put a Talon Grip on for the last range trip and it make big difference in keeping the little gun anchored in my XL size hands. Since it's not a pocket gun for me, there is no downside to the rubber texture Talon.

[JHC]

So, with all the chatter and the "I won't be able to getititis" going around about the VP9, I'd decided to get one. Of course, can't find any LE versions anywhere for love or money (willing to follow leads if anyone has any).

Yesterday, I got the call that we had three people who HAD TO qualify today, so this AM I made the three hour drive to their office to run the qualification. One of the shooters was a "problem child" who struggles mightily with the issued P239 DAK in 40. Got through the qualification, but, after about 100 trigger pulls, hands were shaking, and we'd reach the point of diminishing returns on shooting.

So, I switched the shooter to my Gen4 G19. IMMEDIATE day/night improvement, shooting Bill Drills and El Prez, followed by Dot Torture. This shooter, who BARELY broke 240 with the issued pistol, shot a 48/50 Dot Torture first time ever shooting a Glock of any kind.



Pretty powerful anecdote though. There might be more to their market dominance than shrewd marketing.

[ReverendMeat]

It's fun and rewarding learning to shoot different platforms. As long as you can afford ammo to feed it, if you want one, buy one.

[MGW]

I've been wanting to try something new too. Really been struggling with shooting my 19 quickly and accurately at the same time. Really like both the VP9 and 320. I bought a new Gen 4 17 instead. I've never owned a 17 but enjoyed shooting them every time I tried one.

Cures an itch plus I get to put more rounds through something I'm already set up for.

[BobLoblaw]

You know you want one. Don't fight it. Resistance is futile. Come on in, the waters fine. Just the tip, AHEM, I mean, just see how it feels.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alpha Sierra]

after about 100 trigger pulls, hands were shaking, and we'd reach the point of diminishing returns on shooting.

You might want to gift her one of these:
http://www.ko-sports.com/get/image/productmedia/4905fbae164e6_captains_of_crush.gif

[breakingtime91]

heard it was actually 330... but what do I know, I'm a heather who carries a g19..

Secondscount now calls me heather, which is deserved. I meant to say heathen...

[Trajan]

IMO the VP9 is the most over-hyped gun of 2014. For me it doesn't track straight up and down, it goes to 1 o'clock and just stays there. This means every shot is like a target transition.

I bought into the hype, but fortunately I shot one before I bought one. I don't usually buy into the whole gun of the month club that we see on here though, but this incident has helped make me hype-resistant.

[Sadmin]

For me, it was the P-07; it was going to resolve all my 25y. woes. Turns out my g17 with a Wilson barrel did the trick. I needed the edge cause I still suck.


IMO the VP9 is the most over-hyped gun of 2014. For me it doesn't track straight up and down, it goes to 1 o'clock and just stays there. This means every shot is like a target transition.

I bought into the hype, but fortunately I shot one before I bought one. I don't usually buy into the whole gun of the month club that we see on here though, but this incident has helped make me hype-resistant.

[ffhounddog]

I have been running a VP9 a lot lately but I still pick up a Glock 19 when I go out the door. It just feels right for some reason. Maybe because I have been carrying a Glock 19 or 26 concealed since 2004 and my first gun was a Glock 19 gen2 in 2002.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Psalms144.1 and I have discussed the Glock across several forums (and seem to have had the same luck with 2010 on lemons), and both of us seem to be on the same page as it's a gun we both love to hate, or hate to love...while Glock does a LOT of stuff wrong, the sum of all parts seems to be greater than the whole. For me, the issues are accuracy and reliability--I've long since shot my SIG 229s better than Glocks (I feel like I'm the opposite of psalms144.1's shooter where I struggle with the Glock, but can perform on demand with the SIG even going months or years without picking one up), and I feel like I'm getting the LEM down on my P2000/P2000SK combo where I can shoot it better than the Glock. However, when it comes to a family of guns, no one does it better than the G19/G26 combo...every other pairing for a primary and compact secondary gun falls short in some way or another. And I shoot my Glocks "good enough" out to 15 to make them competitive.

When a new shooter asks my opinion on platforms, there's no way to justify not including Glock at or near the top of the list. As much as I want them to die, I haven't quite found my lightweight/easy maintenance/hi-capacity/perfect CCW-size "Glock-killer." I've had high hopes, but the M&P, P-07, FNS, VP9, and P320 all fall short somewhere on my list. The closest I've come (also mirroring psalms144.1) is the P2000/P2000SK LEM, which I'm currently carrying, isn't QUITE perfect, but it's close. But even then, my G19s live on.

That being said, Newgunitis seems to be helping me out of a slump that I was in for a few years--during that time I was pretty heavily invested in Glocks because of work. However, when I shot them, I felt like it was because I HAD to. When I shoot my SIGs, it's because I WANT to. The H&K is somewhere in between, as it seems to be the love child between the real-world practicality of the Glock and the joy of shooting of the SIG. Maybe I just need to accept that I'm a SIG guy in denial... Either way, anything that changes range time from a chore to be done to something I love and that I'm excited to do is a good thing. I know there's some truth to "beware the man with one gun" line of thinking, but my vote is keep looking for the VP9--if the flag ever goes up in the real world, any extra time you had on the range will be to your benefit, regardless of what's on your hip at go time.

[LSP972]

...while Glock does a LOT of stuff wrong, the sum of all parts seems to be greater than the whole. For me, the issues are accuracy and reliability--I've long since shot my SIG 229s better than Glocks (I feel like I'm the opposite of psalms144.1's shooter where I struggle with the Glock, but can perform on demand with the SIG even going months or years without picking one up) I was pretty heavily invested in Glocks because of work. However, when I shot them, I felt like it was because I HAD to. --if the flag ever goes up in the real world, any extra time you had on the range will be to your benefit, regardless of what's on your hip at go time.

Most excellent post, my man. I'm the same way re loving/hating Glocks. My issue is long range (25 to 50 yard) accuracy. It simply isn't there, when the HKs (and Sigs) are SCARY accurate way down there. I dunno whether it is my particular examples (Bowie-modified G19s), the way I hold/shoot them, or what. I know it is NOT me in general, because I can barely stay on a silhouette, from the barricade (supported position) at 50 yards with my favorite carry Bowie, then pick up one of the HK45 Compacts and print a four inch group. That's with factory carry 9mm ammunition; 127gr SXT or 124gr HST, both +P. My practice reload does slightly better, but that's irrelevant, as it isn't what's in the gun when its for real.

I carried a G26 for a few years, due to special circumstances, but I never really warmed up to that one and in fact recently sold both of mine. The G43, OTOH… now, that puppy has my attention. As I get older and find it more and more… taxing?… to carry a full-size service piece all day, the G43- so far, anyway- appears to be the solution I've been seeking for quite a while. To wit, a small, light carry piece that is not a mouse gun. I've tried just about everything else available in that genre, and they all fell short in one area or another.

I've still got a lot of vetting to do, but I have about gathered all the necessary goodies to give it a full-blown "test", for my carry needs/conditions.

I will say this… as LSP552 put it, a Glock 17 or 19 would be one's best "walk the earth" gun, due to the quick and easy parts replacement ability. I've always held that if the ice cream turns to shit, out come the Glocks, my bag of parts, and stash of Euro-pellet ammo. Come to think of it, we are definitely headed in that direction. Hmmm…

.

[HCM]

Like JCK 397, I've always shot SIGs and HKs better than Glocks. However, under my agencies authorized weapons list, if I want a 9 mm Glock 17 and 26 are the only choices so I'm putting in the work. For myself, the 9/40 frame clocks are very unforgiving of slight variations and grip or trigger. I find the large framed Glocks easier to shoot well

LSP - have you tried shooting a Gen 4 out at 50? They are noticeably more accurate out to 25 IME. if you want a 50 yard capable gen 3 or earlier Glock you will need a fitted Wilson or KKM Barrel.

[JHC]

Like JCK 397, I've always shot SIGs and HKs better than Glocks. However, under my agencies authorized weapons list, if I want a 9 mm Glock 17 and 26 are the only choices so I'm putting in the work. For myself, the 9/40 frame clocks are very unforgiving of slight variations and grip or trigger. I find the large framed Glocks easier to shoot well

LSP - have you tried shooting a Gen 4 out at 50? They are noticeably more accurate out to 25 IME. if you want a 50 yard capable gen 3 or earlier Glock you will need a fitted Wilson or KKM Barrel.

As much as I enjoy them I do believe that (bolded) is universally true and never changes. :D

[SWAT Lt.]

Kevin,

I'm starting to work with the G43 a bit also. I put a Talon Grip on for the last range trip and it make big difference in keeping the little gun anchored in my XL size hands. Since it's not a pocket gun for me, there is no downside to the rubber texture Talon.

I have a Talon Grip (rubber) on mine also, it makes a HUGE difference. I pocket carry mine in cargo shorts and have had no issues with the rubber causing any issues. I like the Talon Grip so much I would not own a G43 without one (or a G42 for that matter).

[LSP552]

Kevin,

Glocks and TDA SIGs have competed for my soul for decades.

I wonder how much caliber also played with your problem shooter? It would have been interesting to see a true apples to apples comparison. What do you think would have happened with the problem shooter and a G23, or a 9mm P239? I shoot Glocks pretty well, but I can run circles around my 19 with my TDA 9mm 239 on anything that doesn't require a bunch of reloads and once I get past bad breath range.

On the other hand, I don't like DAK and or the .40 in anything.

[breakingtime91]

Kevin,

Glocks and TDA SIGs have competed for my soul for decades.

I wonder how much caliber also played with your problem shooter? It would have been interesting to see a true apples to apples comparison. What do you think would have happened with the problem shooter and a G23, or a 9mm P239? I shoot Glocks pretty well, but I can run circles around my 19 with my TDA 9mm 239 on anything that doesn't require a bunch of reloads and once I get past bad breath range.

On the other hand, I don't like DAK and or the .40 in anything.

ya so, I have the p239 itch right now..

[GJM]

My experience is that the difference between like platforms, for example a G19 to P229, is +/- 5%, or maybe a little more depending upon recency of experience, but not 10%.

That might not seem enough to matter, but for those gaming, it is significant. If the difference is a lot more, it is likely due to some defect in the shooter's ability. Now some folks only want to shoot X platform, and are not interested in overall shooting skills, so an inability to shoot most all platforms may not matter to them.

[LSP552]

My experience is that the difference between like platforms, for example a G19 to P229, is +/- 5%, or maybe a little more depending upon recency of experience, but not 10%.

.

I think that's a valid statement, as long as caliber stays the same. The other comment is different platforms can accent certain specific traits, such as accuracy, reloading, etc. I reload a Glock with a factory extended or vickers catch quicker than anything, and I'm more accurate with SIGs. How much those traits can contribute to the overall effort is always open to debate, depending on the end goal.

[psalms144.1]

Wow - my sorta tongue in cheek post generated more interest than I expected. I'll try to stir the pot with a bit of anecdotal opinions - no data here!

1. Mechanical Accuracy. We previously were issued P228s in 9mm, and I carried an authorized P226 in 9mm. When we opened the door to Glocks and I switched back, I found very little/no decrease in accuracy performance. In my last job we routinely ended range days by shooting a magazine at a pepper popper at 100 yards - lowest number of hits bought lunch for the team. Shooting issued and older G19s, and using M882 ball, "low shooter" was typically the person who hit less than 10 shots. There were weeks when I went 13 or 14 out of 15. A couple months back I was at another agency's academy and got to shoot their new Gen4 G17s with HD sights at 100 yards on a steel silhouette. Took three rounds to find the hold and get on steel, then hit six or seven in a row before it became boring. I know my P2000 will hold a tighter group (and I assume that would transfer to the VP9), but in the order of four or five out of five on a 3x5 at 25 yards, versus 3-4 out of 5 with the G19.

2. Problem shooter - yes, the problem shooter reshot the qual with my G19, and shot about 30 points higher (about 12% improvement). And yes, CoC would be great - but it flat AIN'T happening with the shooter in question. Shooter reports previously having no issues qualifying with our old P228s, and I'm not surprised. The combination of the DAK, and the .40 are NOT good for non-dedicated shooters in the P239, IMHO.

Regards,

Kevin

[LSP552]

Thanks Kevin.

I understand. I don't like Glocks, but I have a 42 on my ankle and a G19 in a Tommy's gun pack in the truck. That's my retired guy office attire for today.

Stay safe!

[breakingtime91]

anyone got a line on a p239 to supplement my g19? :cool:

[StraitR]

anyone got a line on a p239 to supplement my g19? :cool:

My buddy and regular shooting partner has an SAS he's selling. I don't know the specifics, but PM if interested and I'll get you some info or get you an email address.

[LSP972]

LSP - have you tried shooting a Gen 4 out at 50? They are noticeably more accurate out to 25 IME. if you want a 50 yard capable gen 3 or earlier Glock you will need a fitted Wilson or KKM Barrel.

No, but I have two like-new Gen4 G19s; and now that you mention it, the one with the fiber optic sights sure grouped better at 25. I was thinking it was the sights (can see them better).

One thing is certain; no way in hell I'm spending more money trying to make a sow's ear into a silk purse. My G19s have a grip reduction/stippling job that is superb… and it costs accordingly. Makes a totally different-feeling pistol out of it. My CQB/burst fire groups are much tighter with the Bowie guns than I can do with a stock pistol; even a Gen4, which does indeed reduce the trigger reach by a bit less than 2mm.

I dunno, you guys may be right. Its SOMETHING, for sure; and while nobody ever accused a LEM trigger of being target grade, I can certainly use one to shoot rings around any Glock I know of.

.

[ST911]

LSP - have you tried shooting a Gen 4 out at 50? They are noticeably more accurate out to 25 IME. if you want a 50 yard capable gen 3 or earlier Glock you will need a fitted Wilson or KKM Barrel.

Not LSP, but a batch of recent manufacture stock gen3 G19s was more than accurate enough to hit steel silhouettes at 50yds. I have several other gen 1-4 that will hit poppers and silhouettes to 100yds.

[Ptrlcop]

if you want a 50 yard capable gen 3 or earlier Glock you will need a fitted Wilson or KKM Barrel.

Not true! I've cleaned my agency's carbine qual,which includes 15rds at 50yds on an 8 inch circle scoring ring, with a stock barreled G22(not as accurate as 17s IMO).

I will say it is easier with my current G17/RMR with KKM barrel.

[GJM]

I did a walk back drill to 90 yards on an 8 inch steel with my P2000 .40, P30L 9mm, and G4 17 this afternoon. The Gen 4 17, with Proctor sights, was the clear winner.

My experience with multiple copies of the G4 17, is that it is no longer true that a Glock is less accurate than a HK, Sig, etc.

[LSP552]

I did a walk back drill to 90 yards on an 8 inch steel with my P2000 .40, P30L 9mm, and G4 17 this afternoon. The Gen 4 17, with Proctor sights, was the clear winner.

My experience with multiple copies of the G4 17, is that it is no longer true that a Glock is less accurate than a HK, Sig, etc.

George,

How much of that is sights vs platform? And even if the mechanical accuracy is there, is it as easy to take advantage of? The only new Glocks I own are the 42 and 43, so no experience with the gen 4.

[GJM]

George,

How much of that is sights vs platform? And even if the mechanical accuracy is there, is it as easy to take advantage of? The only new Glocks I own are the 42 and 43, so no experience with the gen 4.

I think part is the sights, with the Proctor sights working better than the HD sights on small targets at distance.

However, in times past, many to most Glock pistols suffered in the 25-100 yard envelope, enough so that I felt like I was at a disadvantage shooting a Glock. Now, with the Gen 4 17 pistols, they shoot so well in the accuracy department, that the small differences, if any, between the Gen 4 Glock 17 and Sig, HK, etc., are so subtle, it takes better ammo and better technique than I have, to flesh out those distances.

This may be counter intuitive, but when shooting from field positions, as opposed to a bench, I find the squishy trigger typically found on a Glock to give me a better surprise break, allowing me to extract a higher percentage of the gun's inherent accuracy, when shooting at practical speeds from practical positions.

[LSP552]

I think part is the sights, with the Proctor sights working better than the HD sights on small targets at distance.

However, in times past, many to most Glock pistols suffered in the 25-100 yard envelope, enough so that I felt like I was at a disadvantage shooting a Glock. Now, with the Gen 4 17 pistols, they shoot so well in the accuracy department, that the small differences, if any, between the Gen 4 Glock 17 and Sig, HK, etc., are so subtle, it takes better ammo and better technique than I have, to flesh out those distances.

This may be counter intuitive, but when shooting from field positions, as opposed to a bench, I find the squishy trigger typically found on a Glock to give me a better surprise break, allowing me to extract a higher percentage of the gun's inherent accuracy, when shooting at practical speeds from practical positions.

Thanks for that explanation. I definitely feel the 25 yard + accuracy difference between my SIGs and older Gen 2/3 Glocks. Sounds like a need a new Gen 4 17 to test.

[SCSU74]

So, with all the chatter and the "I won't be able to getititis" going around about the VP9, I'd decided to get one. Of course, can't find any LE versions anywhere for love or money (willing to follow leads if anyone has any).

Yesterday, I got the call that we had three people who HAD TO qualify today, so this AM I made the three hour drive to their office to run the qualification. One of the shooters was a "problem child" who struggles mightily with the issued P239 DAK in 40. Got through the qualification, but, after about 100 trigger pulls, hands were shaking, and we'd reach the point of diminishing returns on shooting.

So, I switched the shooter to my Gen4 G19. IMMEDIATE day/night improvement, shooting Bill Drills and El Prez, followed by Dot Torture. This shooter, who BARELY broke 240 with the issued pistol, shot a 48/50 Dot Torture first time ever shooting a Glock of any kind.

But, wait, Glocks aren't accurate! That's why I need a VP9...

I shooed everyone off the range eventually, and decided to shoot the qual myself. I had not fired or dry fired a single shot since June, it's been that kind of summer. So, I was prepped for an underwhelming performance, and shot 300/300. How can this be?

So, I switched to my G26 BUG which I had to blow dust bunnies off from ankle carry before shooting. 300/300

Switched to the G43, which I've only shot about 200 rounds through to date - 294/300 (that little sucker really squirms when your hands are sweaty)

Back to the G19, shot the qual again, this time keeping the timer for all engagements short of the 15 yard line at 3 seconds (the time limit for the 2-shot strings at the 3 yard line in our Course of Fire). The COF is 6 rounds (2/string) at 3 yards, 6 rounds (3/string) at 5 yards, 18 rounds (3/string with two "failure drills, including SHO and WHO shooting) at 7 yards, and 6 rounds (3/string) at 10 yards. Shot the 20 second 15-yard engagements (6/per string) and the 25-second 25-yard engagements (6/per string) with the par set at 10 seconds. Results - 294/300.

But, I NEED a new gun, I really do!

This is precisely why I love to Hate GLOCKs. No matter the reasons why I "have to" switch to something mo' bettah, the range always makes my arguments seem, well, contrived.

But, maybe with a VP9 I'd shoot better than a 300/300...

G&R has them in stock for $650 iirc. They're all over armslist as well.

[LSP972]

Not LSP, but a batch of recent manufacture stock gen3 G19s was more than accurate enough to hit steel silhouettes at 50yds.

Okay, I see we have a disconnect here. My fault, I wasn't clear enough.

What I'm griping about is my inability to print a respectable GROUP of shots at 50 yards. I can ding steel all day long from 50+ yards with those "suspect" G19s of mine; from standing non-supported even. The problem with that is, one shot may be in the lower left corner of the plate; the next one in the upper right; the next one dead center, etc., etc. That's no trick; anyone with a basic understanding of sight alignment and trigger control can do it. And it is not indicative of a given pistol's practical accuracy.

What I'm talking about is a group of shots on paper; minimum of five per string, fired from a supported (or not) position such as standing behind a simulated barricade and supporting one's grip and stance using that simulated barricade. This exercise tells you what YOU can do, with THAT pistol and ammunition, as a sort-of-ultimate accuracy test. Keeping one's groups tight, from 7 yards and in during CQB practice is a learned skill, for sure; printing a small group at 50 yards takes another set of skills. The two are not mutually exclusive, and together make up The Compleat Pistolero… IMO, anyway.;)

My various HKs (HK45 Compact, P30, USP Compact, P2000) can group at 50 all day long. In fact, the only semi-autos, of any calibers, I've shot that grouped tighter than these HK pistols was a couple of highly customized 1911 target guns. My Glocks, OTOH, cannot. Let me put it in perspective (and we're assuming the problem needing to be dealt with is one that I cannot ignore nor move away from- which is always the first option now that I'm a PFC):

If I had to take a shot across a parking at distance (25 yards+), I wouldn't give it a second thought with any of my HKs in hand. With the Glocks… I'd have to think about it.

Sorry for not being clear.

.

[LSP552]

Okay, I see we have a disconnect here. My fault, I wasn't clear enough.

What I'm griping about is my inability to print a respectable GROUP of shots at 50 yards. I can ding steel all day long from 50+ yards with those "suspect" G19s of mine; from standing non-supported even. The problem with that is, one shot may be in the lower left corner of the plate; the next one in the upper right; the next one dead center, etc., etc. That's no trick; anyone with a basic understanding of sight alignment and trigger control can do it. And it is not indicative of a given pistol's practical accuracy.

What I'm talking about is a group of shots on paper; minimum of five per string, fired from a supported (or not) position such as standing behind a simulated barricade and supporting one's grip and stance using that simulated barricade. This exercise tells you what YOU can do, with THAT pistol and ammunition, as a sort-of-ultimate accuracy test. Keeping one's groups tight, from 7 yards and in during CQB practice is a learned skill, for sure; printing a small group at 50 yards takes another set of skills. The two are not mutually exclusive, and together make up The Compleat Pistolero… IMO, anyway.;)

My various HKs (HK45 Compact, P30, USP Compact, P2000) can group at 50 all day long. In fact, the only semi-autos, of any calibers, I've shot that grouped tighter than these HK pistols was a couple of highly customized 1911 target guns. My Glocks, OTOH, cannot. Let me put it in perspective (and we're assuming the problem needing to be dealt with is one that I cannot ignore nor move away from- which is always the first option now that I'm a PFC):

If I had to take a shot across a parking at distance (25 yards+), I wouldn't give it a second thought with any of my HKs in hand. With the Glocks… I'd have to think about it.

Sorry for not being clear.

.

What Steve said (replace HK with SIG), except I was never capable of matching his groups. He is a 50 yard shooting SOB, as in High Master PPC shooter and 1490 club member. Before he got old..:p

[GJM]

Last summer, I did a bunch of group shooting at 100 yards with regular Gen 3 Glock 17 pistols, and they shot excellent groups at 100 yards if you used ammo the guns liked. I found Lawman 115 FMJ to be a very accurate load in multiple Gen 3 pistols, that is modestly priced. The Gen 4 pistols were less fussy about ammo.

[GJM]

Something I did notice commonly at 100, though, was one shot noticeably further out of the group with the Gen 3 17. What I meant to test, but didn't get around to, was whether that came from the hand cycled first cartridge, and whether the Gen 4 exhibited this to. Lots of groups at 100 like this, in terms of four together and one further out.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/1118G17HD_zps2dcf54c2.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/1118G17HD_zps2dcf54c2.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/1118G17HDBill_zpsabc7bb82.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/1118G17HDBill_zpsabc7bb82.jpg.html)

[LSP972]

That's what I'm talking about. That upper target? That's what my "main carry" G19 does… at 25 yards. The lower target shows what it will do at 50 yards… on a good day. Which is why it stays in the safe. I've been round and round with it; different sights, different ammunition, etc.

If I ever need a lot of capacity and having to account for each round fired is no longer relevant; then I'm sure it will do just fine.

.

Nice targets, George. Excellent shooting.

[GJM]

As soon as my wife got to the range this afternoon, I went back to 100 yards and shot my USP with the Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP Super ammo. Five shots from kneeling. I really think the upper left shot is two, based on close inspection, but I wouldn't swear to it in court.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpsty4hsusi.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpsty4hsusi.jpg.html)

I shot my Gen 4 Glock 17 at 100 later in the session. This is how I shot with 115 Lawman. I remember better, but this is the first time I have worked on paper at 100 with this exact pistol. Really need to try some different loads and shoot my way out from 50.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg2_zpsqblsbdvu.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg2_zpsqblsbdvu.jpg.html)