Europe's Immigration Crisis

[Chance]

I, personally, have not visited any of the countries playing a role in this crisis. However, I know many members of this board have traveled all abouts, and I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts.

Last week, Hungarian police found the bodies of 71 people in a truck, most of whom were evidently Syrian refugees (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34083337). In another incident this week, Austrian police are trying to find three children who disappeared from the hospital after being rescued from a minivan filled with 26 people (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34101314), also Syrian refugees.

Just the other day, one person died, and three others were injured, in a shooting in Stockholm (http://www.ibtimes.com/rare-gun-violence-erupts-stockholm-1-dead-3-injured-shooting-stabbing-sweden-2074296). The area the shooting occurred in houses a lot of immigrants. We recently had a thread discussing Sweden here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16976-Welcome-to-Sweden!).

In the US, we're always hearing people scream and shout about "undocumented aliens", but it appears our more enlightened (ha) friends across the pond are struggling as well. Europe's open border policy may be at its end (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/europe-open-border-policy-schengen-may-be-nearing-end/).

So... what's the deal? Obviously, Europe is facing the same issues that the US is confronting regarding immigrants from Latin America: 75% of those incoming are honest people who just want a better life, and the other 25% are predators looking to exploit fresh(-er) meat. What to do, what to do?

[ranger]

Europe has an even bigger problem, look at the birth rates of Europeans. Over time, I predict that Europe as we know it will be transformed as the low birth rate Europeans are overtaken by high birth rate immigrants. Yes, US may have similar issue.

[TGS]

If you've got some time, do some googling on the immigrant rush at the channel tunnel entrance in France. When you've got hundreds of police at a single tunnel entrance being overrun by thousands of migrants, you've got problems.

[johncorey]

Europe is totally Effed in the A, as they say. The tipping point has long been surpassed. This recent influx of stupidity by the EU and some of its member nations' politicians is utterly incomprehensible. Currently, the EU board of morons is busy chastising some member states for building stop-loss measures to protect their own borders....where have we heard that language before? Somehow the cultural acceptance of "I'm a European citizen of the global world" has taken such a deep hold that protecting one's own legal boundaries has become a "terrible thing". As we have seen many a time throughout history, the inevitable backlash will be ruthless and violent. What's that one saying about learning from the past....

[johncorey]

Of course, the great prophet Nostradamus saw all this coming when he predicted "The Camel will drink from the Rhine"....

[TheRoland]

The sheer mass and numbers are pretty staggering. There are too many of them and their circumstances too dire to simply try to stop everyone at their borders.

Instead, they should be figuring out how to assimilate them, but that's another word that's become 'dirty', so I doubt there's sufficient will.

[Malamute]

Stabilizing their homelands would probably be the best thing for everyone. Destroy ISIS, clean up a seriously messed up regime, (Assads), neither of which seem to occur to anyone wringing their hands over all this. Its too politicaly unpalatable to support the people doing the hard work on the ground in Syria (the Kurds), but the consequences are pretty severe for not doing so.

Germany has sent some small arms and Milan rockets, to their credit. Its highly entertaining to see the Milans in action in the Kurds hands against ISIS.

[johncorey]

My biggest issue is the seemingly automatic assumption that European countries MUST do something to help these people. That's so far out of bounds it's absurd. Germany specifically is getting hammered by this recent wave. As is France and England(which better start pouring football fields of concrete into the EuroTunnel if it wants to survive). Again, this false notion that the wealthiest countries have to act to help these migrants is baffling beyond belief. They are being shuttled from thousands upon thousands of miles away to border regions they cannot identify on the map. They share virtually zero common ground (language, religion, socio-political background, culture, etc.) and they will never, ever "assimilate" into whatever host nation they land in. It hasn't happened with the previous generations of muslims and other non-European migrants, and it sure as #$%^ won't happen with these waves. The political correctness in Olde Europe has most certainly been its demise.

[FNFAN]

It's quite easy to "assimilate" those who have no desire to be part of the host culture. You just give up your way of life, your traditions and preconceived notions on what world you had hoped your progeny would live in. Oh, and open your wallet wide so that the new population can have a "fair" start. Easy.

[johncorey]

It's quite easy to "assimilate" those who have no desire to be part of the host culture. You just give up your way of life, your traditions and preconceived notions on what world you had hoped your progeny would live in. Oh, and open your wallet wide so that the new population can have a "fair" start. Easy.

Been there, seen that. It really pains me to see Germany just utterly wrecking itself in this manner. The worst thing to happen to post-WW2 Germany was the Wall being built which caused the need for the "guest worker program" to arise, thereby creating the first wave of this modern issue. The second worst thing to happen to post-WW2 Germany was the Wall coming down, creating an overnight influx of "internal immigrants" who had been so far removed politically, mentally, culturally and socio-econimcally from their common German (some would argue that part of Germany IE Prussia had never shared anything with the rest of the peoples) roots, which exposed a virtually unbridgeable divide between the Ossies and the West. Not a good place to be these days.

[johncorey]

I suppose the solace I take in this mess is that the Kingdom of Bavaria will be around long after Germany is gone, just as it has been around long before Germany was.

[Kyle Reese]

This has the potential to escalate very quickly.

"German government evict the working poor from their homes for illegals to take";

Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a65_1441034785#6bozp60D80lVoDbk.99

[johncorey]

This is starting to seriously spiral out of control. These are actual articles from Agence France Press and Reuters. No worries about Yahoo editorials. The videos are nuts. Law and Order seems to have completely evaporated at times, which is why I suspect they have passed the proverbial buck on to Germany and Austria. One of the 2(!!!) uptake centers in Bavaria is about 30 mins from where I grew up. Crazy.

https://news.yahoo.com/migrants-protest-hungary-shutters-budapest-train-station-131621228.html


https://news.yahoo.com/eu-must-defend-migrants-dignity-leaders-ahead-talks-032719758.html

[johncorey]

This has the potential to escalate very quickly.

"German government evict the working poor from their homes for illegals to take";

Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a65_1441034785#6bozp60D80lVoDbk.99


What is lost at times in the translation scrolling along the bottom, is of course the tone of the interviewers and the interviewees. The current atmosphere is very, very unpleasant.

[johncorey]

The young Syrian couple complaining about living in the small, shared apartment with the communal kitchen is a snap shot of just WITF is wrong with all of this. They state they have been in Germany for a year, with one sub-12 month toddler and another bun in the oven. He's a useless dude with a PT job and she is a "student" in a land where she can't even speak/understand the national tongue. They keep popping out kids left and right, with zero means to support them, all the while continuing to sap the German tax payer provided social and welfare benefits for free, and then have the gall to complain about their living situation. What in the actual F. This is beyond outrageous.

[Kyle Reese]

What is lost at times in the translation scrolling along the bottom, is of course the tone of the interviewers and the interviewees. The current atmosphere is very, very unpleasant.

Ludwigshafen is my grandmother's hometown. Very disconcerting state of affairs, to say the least. It's a double edged sword, too. The indigenous Germans resent this massive influx of new arrivals, and many of these people won't ever assimilate into the dominant culture, contributing to social unrest / tensions. The German government booting people out of their homes to give housing to these refugees is a recipe for disaster, IMO. Of course, they're not permitted to talk about any of this in Germany.

[TCinVA]

Of course, they're not permitted to talk about any of this in Germany.

The danger of that cannot be overstated.

When there can be no debate, it's cramming a powder keg.

[Jeep]

Ludwigshafen is my grandmother's hometown. Very disconcerting state of affairs, to say the least. It's a double edged sword, too. The indigenous Germans resent this massive influx of new arrivals, and many of these people won't ever assimilate into the dominant culture, contributing to social unrest / tensions. The German government booting people out of their homes to give housing to these refugees is a recipe for disaster, IMO. Of course, they're not permitted to talk about any of this in Germany.

This is going to be a never ending issue--until Europe is gone. The European political class is so afraid of being called "racists" that they cannot get up the nerve to defend their borders (never mind that most of the refugees are white).

Meanwhile, the Arab and other Moslem states are so dysfunctional that a huge percentage of their inhabitants will risk everything to escape to Europe. They are unlikely to get jobs there, but they will get enough welfare to live far better than they do at home--which will encourage more to come.

So the native populations of Europe will be supporting a huge number of refugees, who are effectively prevented from getting jobs and who have little interest in integrating. The result will be growing populations of alienated refugees who hate the native populations and their cultures, but are dependent on their welfare benefits, and a shrinking number of natives who are crushed by the taxes and whose views are silenced of marginalized by the terrified elites.

The result is going to be constant ethnic tension, violence, riots and occasional terrorism. In the end, I expect most of Europe to surrender to the immigrants, who will recreate the toxic culture that drove them out of their homes in the first place.

Our State Department and the current administration are populated by the same type of people as those who populate the Euro political class. We are in for fun times soon.

[johncorey]

It is rather disheartening to see this go down the way it is. The social suicide being orchestrated top down is outright treasonous at times. Yes, treasonous. Germany, nor any Western European nation cannot support such an influx. To continue to force this issue amongst their people is nothing shy of a recipe for disaster. The usual powder keg of the Balkans is being ferried into the heart of Europe itself now. This will not end well. The toothpaste is out.

[johncorey]

This is going to be a never ending issue--until Europe is gone. The European political class is so afraid of being called "racists" that they cannot get up the nerve to defend their borders (never mind that most of the refugees are white).

Meanwhile, the Arab and other Moslem states are so dysfunctional that a huge percentage of their inhabitants will risk everything to escape to Europe. They are unlikely to get jobs there, but they will get enough welfare to live far better than they do at home--which will encourage more to come.

So the native populations of Europe will be supporting a huge number of refugees, who are effectively prevented from getting jobs and who have little interest in integrating. The result will be growing populations of alienated refugees who hate the native populations and their cultures, but are dependent on their welfare benefits, and a shrinking number of natives who are crushed by the taxes and whose views are silenced of marginalized by the terrified elites.

The result is going to be constant ethnic tension, violence, riots and occasional terrorism. In the end, I expect most of Europe to surrender to the immigrants, who will recreate the toxic culture that drove them out of their homes in the first place.

Our State Department and the current administration are populated by the same type of people as those who populate the Euro political class. We are in for fun times soon.


Fully agreed. Looking back even a mere 10 years, I would have never, ever imagined the West would be this royally screwed right now.

The absolute worst part is that law abiding Germans will have virtually zero means of protecting themselves as we do here. The gun laws never stopped the Kurds, the Albanians, the Russians and the Turks from going to war with one another in mid to late 90s over the red light district in Hamburg. Lobbing grenades onto subways filled with passengers. Convoy style drive byes with belt feds. Dumping the tortured remains of rivals onto the pavement mid day. Nope. And those same laws will certainly not prevent the coming violence.

[Jeep]

Fully agreed. Looking back even a mere 10 years, I would have never, ever imagined the West would be this royally screwed right now.

The absolute worst part is that law abiding Germans will have virtually zero means of protecting themselves as we do here. The gun laws never stopped the Kurds, the Albanians, the Russians and the Turks from going to war with one another in mid to late 90s over the red light district in Hamburg. Lobbing grenades onto subways filled with passengers. Convoy style drive byes with belt feds. Dumping the tortured remains of rivals onto the pavement mid day. Nope. And those same laws will certainly not prevent the coming violence.

Just like it is quite difficult to get a legal firearm in Belgium, but downright easy to buy several crates of AK's (plus ammo) in the Moroccan districts of Brussels by one of the train stations. Gun laws are vigorously enforced against those who try to comply--but there is not a lot of appetite for cracking down on Arab gun and drug dealers.

Of course, we have the same thing here. The market for illegal guns in our inner cities is huge, but every proposal by the present administration is to make it harder for law abiding people to buy guns. There seems to be little appetite for going after the illegal gun sales. But, of course, if our government did that it would wreck the "narrative"--and also interfere with part of the political base.

[Suvorov]

Ahh, the Arab Spring is bearing its fruits. Another example of the stability we are exporting to the region.

This summer the the park near the Bus station in Belgrade was over flowing with Middle Eastern refugees. Lots of Syrians and Libyans no doubt due to their somewhat friendly national ties. While Serbia is a lot better today than 20 years ago it still must be real bad for these folks at home if a park in Belgrade is their best option.

I do wonder how many of these Syrians are of the Shariah law flavor however.

[johncorey]

The single best asset America has, is our geographical location. Two massive oceans, a desert + large river, and a frozen forest go a long way in preventing a lot of problems.

[Jeep]

The single best asset America has, is our geographical location. Two massive oceans, a desert + large river, and a frozen forest go a long way in preventing a lot of problems.

Very true. Unfortunately, our State Department has been throwing away these assets by importing large quantities of immigrants who seem to have difficulty integrating and have a perhaps inordinate fondness of Sharia law. We in turn re-export some as they go to fight jihad elsewhere, but others want to cut out the travel requirement and bring jihad here. (See Boston, Texas and Chattanooga for some fun-filled examples).

Interestingly, the State Department seldom imports these fine folks to places where a lot of State Department employees live. It's no doubt just an oversight on its part.

[johncorey]

I've always found it natural for the largest Somali community outside of Somalia to be located in Minnesota. It's virtually a carbon copy of the homeland.

[TGS]

Very true. Unfortunately, our State Department has been throwing away these assets by importing large quantities of immigrants who seem to have difficulty integrating and have a perhaps inordinate fondness of Sharia law. We in turn re-export some as they go to fight jihad elsewhere, but others want to cut out the travel requirement and bring jihad here. (See Boston, Texas and Chattanooga for some fun-filled examples).

Interestingly, the State Department seldom imports these fine folks to places where a lot of State Department employees live. It's no doubt just an oversight on its part.

You keep throwing around State as if it's an evil monopoly, but USRAP isn't even run by state. It's it's own program run jointly by many agencies and non-profits (a bunch of them Christian orgs), and State is only 1 of the agencies involved. The other big two are DHHS and DHS. In addition, it's not State that decides who gets "imported", as you like to say. It's the POTUS who decides what populations get focused on.

[Jeep]

You keep throwing around State as if it's an evil monopoly, but USRAP isn't even run by state. It's it's own program run jointly by many agencies and non-profits (a bunch of them Christian orgs), and State is only 1 of the agencies involved. The other big two are DHHS and DHS. In addition, it's not State that decides who gets "imported", as you like to say. It's the POTUS who decides what populations get focused on.

As a practical matter it is State that makes most of the key decisions, even if the President is the theoretical decision maker. I have a friend who is currently trying to get the refugee policies changed, and it is State that makes the effective decisions on which populations get in and which are excluded. For example, for Syrian refugees they are heavily focused on Sunni Moslems, and are highly resistant to increasing the percentage of Syrian Christians who are let in, even though a greater percentage of Christians are displaced. The reason for this appears to be personal/ideological preferences among low level political appointees. It is possible that these decisions are actually being made at higher levels, but my friend doesn't get that impression, and Congress is starting to be lobbied on it.

However, I will admit that I think State is one of the most dysfunctional and least user-friendly departments in an increasingly dysfunctional and user-unfriendly government. It is hugely expensive (our latest embassy to Zimbabwe, of all places, is supposed to cost over $500 million), over-manned, and too often runs its own foreign (and now domestic) policies. So I have to admit the possibility that I'm being too harsh on it here.

I don't think so, though, and I think the continued importation (a word that I think fits the situation) of difficult-to-integrate immigrants is an enormous mistake. For example, if we are going to take in Syrian refugees, I don’t think that it can be fairly debated that, on the whole, the Christians and Alawites are more secular than the Sunnis, and thus should be easier to integrate. It is correct that many Syrian Sunnis are fairly secular, but it is also true that a significant percentage of Syrian Sunnis are sympathetic to jihadist sentiments. The brutality of the Assad government might have caused that, but we don’t need more potential jihadis here, and based on the record to date, we have shown little ability to effectively screen out potential jihadis. Instead, the alienation that many young Sunni immigrants feel in our society, seems guaranteed to turn a not-insignificant number of semi-secular immigrant into potential terrorists.

Our government has its first obligation to the American people, and I think that it has in part forgotten that.

[ken grant]

In looking at Europe today you get a picture of the future of the USA unless major changes are made and in a hurry.

[Chance]

It now appears that a group of over a thousand migrants, who were stranded at a railway station in Budapest, have now set off on foot for the border with Austria (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34155701).

I saw this photo today, and thought it was funny:

3849

[johncorey]

I hope they brought their walking shoes....saw various video footage which clearly shows the mass of people just flooding actual roads and other transit lanes, totaling shutting down the ability of normal, IE vehicular traffic to utilize them. Amazing.

[TAZ]

The sheer mass and numbers are pretty staggering. There are too many of them and their circumstances too dire to simply try to stop everyone at their borders.

Instead, they should be figuring out how to assimilate them, but that's another word that's become 'dirty', so I doubt there's sufficient will.

And there lies the absolute root of the problem. A belief that a government MUST help non-citizens at the expense of citizens. A countries governments only duty is to protect the interest of the nation and its citizens. END OF STORY. When those needs are met countries may choose to assist others, but never to a point where the interests and welfare of the host country are at risk. So yes, countries can and should stop refugees from entering their borders if those entering are a threat to the welfare and interests of the country. They can and should be stopped by any means necessary up to and including lethal force. It's not rocket science, but countries either ignore it or these actions are done to protect the interests of those making the decisions.

[Kyle Reese]

This is the biggest population transfer in Europe since the Red Army's advance into Central Europe in early 1945. The consequences of this mass migration into Germany (and the UK) are so dire that they cannot be fully realized or articulated at this point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[1slow]

If a country is not willing to kill as necessary to protect their borders and citizens against invasion by non citizens they are not serious.

[ranger]

This is the biggest population transfer in Europe since the Red Army's advance into Central Europe in early 1945. The consequences of this mass migration into Germany (and the UK) are so dire that they cannot be fully realized or articulated at this point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Agreed. This has huge implications for Europe and as much as I wish we could just hide behind the ocean - this will impact us too as our trading partners get negatively impacted. What is amazing is how little news coverage there is on this mass migration except to say that Europe is not doing enough. It will be interesting to see if there is a rise in "nationalism" in Europe due to this mass migration. Europe has effectively disarmed by reducing their military over the last few decades and taking advantage of the "peace dividend" after the Soviet Union disbanded - it will be interesting to see how they handle this problem.

[Drang]

Happened before: Migration Period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period). FYI, the search term I used was "volkerwanderung".

I am reminded of a tasking my fellow MI geeks got at Ft Lewis from a brilliant but difficult I Corps G2, the same guy who wanted them to catalog every piece of construction equipment everywhere in the world, "just in case": The tasking was "Are there any examples in history of one nation-state invading another nation-state in order to feed itself?", the context being "Will we need to reinforce the Republic of Korea if/when north Korea invades because of the famine?"

The short answer was "No", the longer answer was "No, but 'feeding the people' has been used as an excuse for an invasion, and there are myriad examples of peoples getting up and moving looking to feed their kids."
What we're seeing here, of course, is not folks looking for food, it's folks looking to get away from war, and/or failed (or failing) states that cannot provide security.
Which brings us back to the Volkerwanderung: The Germanic tribes that brought down the Roman Empire wandered into Europe getting away from the Huns, Slavs, and others.
In a similar way, closer to home and in time (although technically prehistorical, because no one was writing it down) the rise of the Iroquois pushed the Ojibwa/Chippewa into the Great Lakes region, which pushed the Sioux (Lakota and related) onto the Great Plains.

As noted, it remains to be seen how effectively the nations of Eastern Europe can and will deal with this.

And us.

[jh9]

As noted, it remains to be seen how effectively the nations of Eastern Europe can and will deal with this.

And us.

Eastern Europe has a...well documented...history of dealing with large quantities of "not us". Hopefully this ends better.

Modern Western Europe is insulated. Bad things happen Somewhere Else. I don't think the average European, no matter how "well traveled", is even capable of understanding the day in the life of someone who lives in a Brazillian Favela or within earshot of a Mexican Cartel. There are simply too many people that think since things are currently so awesome at home that if you just give enough or care enough then people stop being bad. Dangerous naivete, but hardly civilization ending. I mean, the continent is barely a generation removed from people that not only lived WWI and WWII with all the political and tribal violence that came along for the ride...but also the people that took part in it.

While I doubt you'll see ethnic cleansing in downtown Paris (hopefully) it's worth mentioning how the Roma are barely tolerated. If things start to get bad (which isn't guaranteed) there will be mass deportations. People will march in the street and the word racism will be used with great frequency, but it's not going to be the downfall of Europe in general.

[Drang]

As Tamara noted... somewhere... Europe has a record of going from zero to jackboot in no time. (Paraphrasing.)

True, Western Europe, especially France, has tried very hard to forget WWI, and in fact, the "War To End War" had such a traumatic effect on Western European society from which they may never recover.

Wondering now if the aftermath of WWII (meaning, Stalin, the Red Army, half a century of Soviet domination) had the same effect on Eastern Europe.

[Chance]

Migrants were, literally, cheered on by crowds after their arrival in Germany (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34164645). The BBC is estimating some 350,000 migrants have crossed into the EU in 2015 alone.

[Kyle Reese]

While I doubt you'll see ethnic cleansing in downtown Paris (hopefully) it's worth mentioning how the Roma are barely tolerated. If things start to get bad (which isn't guaranteed) there will be mass deportations.

When I was in Hungary, the Roma were quite openly discriminated against by all manner of Hungarians.

[BaiHu]

Anyone find video of this? Haven't checked live leak yet, because I'm on the phone.

http://pamelageller.com/2015/09/watch-video-footage-emerges-of-refugees-abusing-police-throwing-food-and-water-away-onto-train-tracks.html/

[johncorey]

That video seems to be the norm with this current flood. -Please help us Western, Christian, Europe. We have nothing, but screw your bottled water, your food, your clothes, your free transportation across your lands, and your overall generosity and tolerance.- None of which would be happening in the reverse scenario by the way. I still believe that this is going to mutate into a catastrophe the likes which W. Europe has not seen since WW2.

On a related side note, I just spent the long weekend visiting a buddy up in Grand Island, NE. About as dead center of the Heartland as you could get. Home of Hornady and the Nebraska State Fair amongst others. One of the first things I see driving into town is a car with 5 very dark females in full wrap. I had to double take to make sure these eyeballs weren't going bad. Turns out, the State Department chose Grand Island as one of several midwestern towns to win the muslim refugee resettlement lottery. There are no shit upwards of over a thousand Sudanese, Somalis and a few others who have been dropped off here to exist amongst the locals. Saw at least 4 halal markets, bakeries and even the mosque, of which I'm told there are more. Again, this is central NEBRASKA. I'd be willing to bet those folks couldn't find themselves on a map. Yet here they are. Not assimilating. Not producing anything other than more children and virtually all are drawing some form of state or federal assistance, of which they have contributed zero dollars to of course.

Yeah. Nebraska. Let that sink in.

[Kyle Reese]

Saw at least 4 halal markets, bakeries and even the mosque, of which I'm told there are more.

On the bright side, the halal restaurants in my AO serve excellent chow. I concur with your points, though.

[johncorey]

On the bright side, the halal restaurants in my AO serve excellent chow. I concur with your points, though.


Oh, I have no doubt they do. Some of my favorite joints in Chicago are up and down Devon or Kedzie! The very obvious difference is that in Chicago and other, more natural gravitational spots for legal (and illegal) immigrants across the US, the move there had some form of organic drive. I would bet a year's worth of Bitcoin that not one of the people I saw this weekend ever wanted to go to Grand Island, NE. That's simply not in anyone's reality there. It was clearly a top down, sterile and maybe even malicious decision to plant these refugees there, and other Midwestern areas. Asides from the Minnesota/Somali populace, this is about as out of place as you can be. Except, there aren't many if any jobs those in NE qualify for. I spoke with a teenage female from Sudan who worked at the Sonic. Not the best English, but clearly enough to get hired there and work the orders section. Neither her mom nor dad speak any English, and they are receiving assistance, she did not exactly know which. Was not able to get around to religion due to time constraints. Although the teenager was not sporting any, the household leaning was answered when the wrapped mother showed up to scoop her waiting daughter.

[Tamara]

This is the biggest population transfer in Europe since the Red Army's advance into Central Europe in early 1945.

The differences in refugee experiences (and the different levels of lingering cultural guilt) from WWII help to explain the different attitudes toward refugees in Hungary and, say, Sweden. To mix my metaphors, Sweden wears a hair shirt to this day for standing by and holding Germany's coat during the '39-'45 portion of the World War. Hungary, on the other hand, was not that long ago a source of refugees, not a destination, and therefore feels a lot harsher about the whole thing, a lot more willing to say "Hey, we're really sorry, but things are tough all over, buddy."

[LostDuke]

Of course, they're not permitted to talk about any of this in Germany.


The danger of that cannot be overstated.

When there can be no debate, it's cramming a powder keg.

This statement, and the conclusion drawn from it, are absolutely not correct. There is a lively debate in Germany over this issue, we are talking about a thriving democracy here, not North Korea.

Who does not permit a debate? Under which authority? Do you have any proof whatsoever to back up that statement?

What I see and read - for instance here (http://www.spiegel.de/international/) - is something entirely different. There are risks, everybody sees that. But, as this article argues, (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/spiegel-cover-story-the-new-germany-a-1050406.html), there are also big opportunities for a country which has a low birth rate and is growing fast and well (despite free health care and mittbesttimung (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwjWiaTHwufHAhWEiw0KHXxGBbo&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCo-determination&usg=AFQjCNF69AFcVFDSb51nwdLyoPE6NhWHzg&sig2=5VrJmF80Otqzck46WOvLUQ&bvm=bv.102022582,d.eXY) oh my oh my).

The danger, in other world, is wildly overstated. West Germany faced a much bigger crisis upon the dissolution of the Eastern block, and came out not only a winner, but THE powerhouse in Europe. They are absolutely confident (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34185353) they can deal with this as well.

[Tamara]

They share virtually zero common ground (language, religion, socio-political background, culture, etc.) and they will never, ever "assimilate" into whatever host nation they land in.

Assimilation is *so* 19th Century, and was never a European thing anyway, where tribal volkways linger in ways that subconsciously horrify the bien pensants who secretly harbor them. The Swedish professors and politicians who refer to "New Swedes" do it, whether they want to admit it or not, to distinguish the Moslems held in the zoos of Malmo and Stockholm from regular Swedish-type Swedes.

We used to do assimilation. You would move here and we would hate you and make you live in ghettos and organize political parties against you, and your kids would learn our games and our songs and our language and move out of the ghettos and be our tradespeople. And your grandkids would be our doctors and lawyers and aldermen and would forget your language and we would add your food to our menus and take one of your holidays and hang it on our wall as a trophy and use it as an excuse to get drunk every year.

But not any more. Now assimilation is imperialist and racist and bad. Indeed, in Europe, which is several kilometer markers further down this road than we are, assimilation is actively discouraged. No, no, Mr. Refugee... You don't need to learn the language; you'll never be one of us anyway. You just sit there and let us feed you and keep you like a zoo animal to look at and remind ourselves that we don't feed you into ovens anymore like our parents did because we're so much better now.

We'll see who cracks first, the guests or the hosts, but sooner or later, somebody's getting loaded into cattlecars, because that's how things go in Europe.

[Jeep]

I'm afraid that this prediction might be completely on target. Taking in immigrants when both sides reject the idea of assimilation is probably not going to have a happy ending.

[Tamara]

I'm afraid that this prediction might be completely on target. Taking in immigrants when both sides reject the idea of assimilation is probably not going to have a happy ending.

Until recently, most of the immigrants themselves were fairly eager to assimilate; they were after jobs and a new life. It was their kids growing up in the zoo that provided the source of the problem.

With the influx of the last dozen+ years, though, the old paradigm doesn't necessarily hold true anymore.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I agree - and I think one fly in the assimilation ointment is the role of women. These folks want to maintain a control over women which is antithetical to democratic (small 'd') values. When I see the men walking in shorts and t-shirts and the women staggering through the corn fields in cloth bags of enslavement and covered heads - you have to just shake your head.

That being said, I have worked with students from the Middle East and Iran that were shedding these beliefs and dress.

Last, Sweden and Switzerland cooperated with the Nazis to prevent invasions. They tried to have militaries that would inflict some pain and planned destruction of the assets that the Nazis used. Tough situation to be in but it was life and death. The Swedes did help in saving the Danish Jews. The Swiss were not so hot on that.

It was a myth in the gun world that the Swiss armed scared the Nazis away (like the Japanese gun behind every tree mantra for not invading the USA). It was mostly the destruction of the tunnels to Italy through the Alps and collaboration.

Back to the issue, there is no way to 'solve' Syria except by a WWII type invasion and occupation that rids the country of Isis and Assad. Oh, wait - that worked well in Iraq (granted we had the world's stupidest occupation regime).

[johncorey]

This statement, and the conclusion drawn from it, are absolutely not correct. There is a lively debate in Germany over this issue, we are talking about a thriving democracy here, not North Korea.

Taking thousands of years of recorded history, human interaction, migration and immigration patterns and waves, yes, FredM (amongst many, many others) will more than likely be proven correct sooner rather than later.

I'm not exactly sure what you are referencing with your post, but there is no debate. A debate presumes two or more parties discussing differing sides of one topic. What happened in Germany did not reflect that in the least. Before Merkel & Co. could even attempt at getting this crisis resolved agreeably, the flood waves had already crashed onto the German shores. Instead of following the European Laws on the books, which state that the first member state in which a refugee lands must process the application and provide relief until a permanent decision can be made, Merkel unilaterally authorized the uptake of these refugees, well actually illegal immigrants since most did not file the proper paperwork, into southern Bavaria. Bavaria rightfully lodged complaints with Berlin, but they fell on deaf ears. To be clear, there is zero debate for this.

You ask for burden of proof on FredM's part, yet you offer none in return. Here's what I know to be true, based on half of my family living in southern Bavaria. The state government has in fact lodged protests with Berlin and requested an immediate cessation of Bavaria being the only permanent intake center. They currently have two- one in Munich and one in Rosenheim, co-located with the main train stations there. For context, Rosenheim is a fairly decent sized transit point on the main rail lines coming from Austria into Munich.

Your reference of articles from a writer who is living in a fantasy world, with zero connection to, nor skin in the game with the current crisis does not strengthen your play in this thread. The "big opportunities" do not rest with current Germans, but rather these illegals who will undoubtedly cause much strain and drain on the country today. Merkel released figures upwards of $4B to help with this refugee flood. $4B? That's a lot of printing to be done. Not one penny of that was allocated for such an event, as no one had envisioned such a catastrophe unfolding.

The looming danger on the horizon is not overstated, especially not "wildly" as you put it. The fall of the Iron Curtain was a very trying time for West Germany indeed. However, that's where the similarities end. The people were Germans, the language was German, the skill level was present even though it was not up to Western standards, the shared enemy had been vanquished and the reunification was on organic process. Both sides wanted it to happen, mainly to right a wrong brought on by the Russians. West Germany knew there would be a major uphill struggle to get it done, but it was a common interest, as opposed to the refugee crisis we see now. There simply is no common or even remotely underlying denominator here. Not one.

I am interested in reading your rebuttal, as perhaps I have missed something. But please do not quote some misled article with zero investigative, objective contributions in it.

[johncorey]

We'll see who cracks first, the guests or the hosts, but sooner or later, somebody's getting loaded into cattlecars, because that's how things go in Europe.

Maybe a tad absolute, as that has only occurred once in European history, but yes. Things will get ugly quickly, but perhaps we will see many a parallel drawn between then and now. I agree that this is going to be an "us VS them" blood sport.

[Chance]

That being said, I have worked with students from the Middle East and Iran that were shedding these beliefs and dress.

Me too. With the prevalence of people from the Middle East here in our program, I've seen that happen over and over. When they first arrive, they're very strict about their adherence to mode of dress and so forth. Give them a few years, and their observance of now-distant traditions only reappears when relatives come to visit.

It's a complex process, but by in large, if you're immersed in a different culture, osmosis takes effect eventually. In Europe's present case, most of these migrants are bringing along pretty much all of their countrymen, so I don't know if there's going to be such a thing as "immersion."

[LostDuke]

I am interested in reading your rebuttal, as perhaps I have missed something. But please do not quote some misled article with zero investigative, objective contributions in it.

You offer no source whatsoever to back up your statements, and offhandedly dismiss both the Spiegel and BBC, which are internationally known and respected sources. Double standards are convenient, but apparent.

I offered a similarity with the dissolution of East Germany to put things in context. West Germany had to absorb and integrate millions of people, a sub-par infrastructure, obsolescent transportation system, inferior technical education and completely different values and culture. There was debate aplenty, and while you are absolutely correct about the fact that both sides wanted it to happen, it was a difficult costly and enormous task to integrate East Germany.

Compared to that, a few tens of thousands refugees are a piece of cake, literally. Germany can and will handle it, and in doing so will push the rest of Europe to act organically and more humanely. We will continue to do nothing and cry havoc.

[johncorey]

You offer no source whatsoever to back up your statements, and offhandedly dismiss both the Spiegel and BBC, which are internationally known and respected sources. Double standards are convenient, but apparent.


If you re-read my post, you will note that I did not dismiss either the Spiegel nor the BBC. I specifically referred to the articles and their authors. My assessment of both still stands. Being internationally known and "respected" does not equate to being right nor having clue. Both of those organizations have a stated bias to the left, and both built their reputations decades ago. May I remind you that it was you who first wished to have a burden of proof injected into this thread, without any actual sources as the counter balance. Up until that point, the posts were a collage of multi-source information shared by members. I stated how my views are formed. Primary source day to day dealings of my family living, working and breathing in Bavaria. The multitude of videos, pictures, interviews, film clips etc. floating around there corroborate what they are telling me.


I offered a similarity with the dissolution of East Germany to put things in context. West Germany had to absorb and integrate millions of people, a sub-par infrastructure, obsolescent transportation system, inferior technical education and completely different values and culture. There was debate aplenty, and while you are absolutely correct about the fact that both sides wanted it to happen, it was a difficult costly and enormous task to integrate East Germany.

You did offer East Germany as a comparison, to which I gave counter points as to why it is a false choice on your part. You expose your lack of knowledge on this matter yet again. West Germany did not absorb and integrate millions of anyone. East and West merged, thereby created modern day Germany. 90%+ of East Germans stayed where they were. They did not come flooding across the former border seeking permanent support as refugees. The initial, short lived cross border burst back then was exploratory in nature. Discovering the new so to speak. Curiosity and all. Thanks for confirming that I was correct on the integration goals. I needed that.


Compared to that, a few tens of thousands refugees are a piece of cake, literally. Germany can and will handle it, and in doing so will push the rest of Europe to act organically and more humanely. We will continue to do nothing and cry havoc.

Again, you are ignoring facts. Those have a tendency to get in the way of opinions. Germany is not dealing with a "few tens of thousands", the official numbers from Berlin is an expected 800,000. Those are the official numbers, so you can add some more to that. Almost a 1 million refugee influx in less than 12 months time is not in any way shape or form a "piece of cake". You have no clue what you are talking about in this regards. I would love to know what your direct connection, and/or background is in this debate?

[LostDuke]

Being internationally known and "respected" does not equate to being right nor having clue. Both of those organizations have a stated bias to the left,

And that is the problem right there isn't it?

[johncorey]

And that is the problem right there isn't it?

Not sure what you are hinting at.

[Jeep]

As others have predicted here, the crisis is getting much worse. According to the Wall Street Journal this morning, the media reports of hundreds of thousands of mostly Syrians being allowed into Europe has started a second wave of Iraqis, Nigerians, Libyans, Afghans and others moving towards Europe with the hope of being able to settle in Germany.

Germany has said it will take in 800,000, but it appears that many more than that are coming. Germany can't take them all, and the rest of Europe isn't going to want to take tens or hundreds of thousands of refugees who were spurred into coming by Merkel's well-intentioned, but fundamentally misguided, pledge to take in massive numbers.

They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and that certainly seems to be the case here.

[johncorey]

As others have predicted here, the crisis is getting much worse. According to the Wall Street Journal this morning, the media reports of hundreds of thousands of mostly Syrians being allowed into Europe has started a second wave of Iraqis, Nigerians, Libyans, Afghans and others moving towards Europe with the hope of being able to settle in Germany.

Germany has said it will take in 800,000, but it appears that many more than that are coming. Germany can't take them all, and the rest of Europe isn't going to want to take tens or hundreds of thousands of refugees who were spurred into coming by Merkel's well-intentioned, but fundamentally misguided, pledge to take in massive numbers.

They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and that certainly seems to be the case here.


It never ceases to amaze how short sighted those in power anywhere are, and how little they game out 2nd and 3rd order of affects. Make no mistake about it- this crisis is nowhere near its zenith. The road to hell indeed...

[Jim Watson]

And one of Our Leaders was planning to send yet more money AND accommodate even more foreign DPs on the USA.
A policy for suicide.

[johncorey]

There are plans in place to start bringing thousands here. It'll be different this time. Promise!

[TCinVA]

The Tsarnayevs were "refugees", too.

No thanks.

[Tamara]

Maybe a tad absolute, as that has only occurred once in European history...

Cattle cars, tumbrels, autos da fé... toe-may-toe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Grandes_Mis%C3%A8res_de_la_guerre), toe-mah-toe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_%28Picasso%29)...

Da'esh might want to think hard before they try and look all scary burning captives in onesie-twosie executions in order to spook people who burn whole cities full of sleeping women and children when they get scared enough.

[Kyle Reese]

This statement, and the conclusion drawn from it, are absolutely not correct. There is a lively debate in Germany over this issue, we are talking about a thriving democracy here, not North Korea.

Who does not permit a debate? Under which authority? Do you have any proof whatsoever to back up that statement?


The German political Left equates any opposition to immigration, lawful or otherwise, as analogous to supporting National Socialism. It sounds crazy, but ask any German on this board, and they'll tell you it's absolutely true. Not wanting to be branded as a fascist or Nazi sympathizer has silenced many Germans in public, and there are still significant cultural taboos in place in Germany which strongly frown upon overt displays of nationalist sentiment.

For instance, flying the current German flag from a private home would be interpreted as a provocative nationalist act, and actively frowned upon. I correspond regularly with friends and family living in Germany, and I, like JohnCorey, can confirm that this situation in Europe isn't nearly as benign as many Western media outlets portray it. I trust their first hand accounts and impressions over the mass-media.

Furthermore, the large influx of military aged males in this group should be of concern, and I hope that there are vetting mechanisms in place in Germany to ensure that these individuals were not affiliated with terrorist organizations.


You offer no source whatsoever to back up your statements, and offhandedly dismiss both the Spiegel and BBC, which are internationally known and respected sources. Double standards are convenient, but apparent.

I offered a similarity with the dissolution of East Germany to put things in context. West Germany had to absorb and integrate millions of people, a sub-par infrastructure, obsolescent transportation system, inferior technical education and completely different values and culture. There was debate aplenty, and while you are absolutely correct about the fact that both sides wanted it to happen, it was a difficult costly and enormous task to integrate East Germany.

Compared to that, a few tens of thousands refugees are a piece of cake, literally. Germany can and will handle it, and in doing so will push the rest of Europe to act organically and more humanely. We will continue to do nothing and cry havoc.

You conveniently omit the fact that East and West Germans shared, for the most part, a similar culture. The people coming to Germany in this migratory landslide share none of that, which contributes significantly to social, political and religious strife. I stand by my earlier comments.

I do appreciate the discourse on the subject, and thank you for your contributions.

[45dotACP]

Assimilation is *so* 19th Century, and was never a European thing anyway, where tribal volkways linger in ways that subconsciously horrify the bien pensants who secretly harbor them. The Swedish professors and politicians who refer to "New Swedes" do it, whether they want to admit it or not, to distinguish the Moslems held in the zoos of Malmo and Stockholm from regular Swedish-type Swedes.

We used to do assimilation. You would move here and we would hate you and make you live in ghettos and organize political parties against you, and your kids would learn our games and our songs and our language and move out of the ghettos and be our tradespeople. And your grandkids would be our doctors and lawyers and aldermen and would forget your language and we would add your food to our menus and take one of your holidays and hang it on our wall as a trophy and use it as an excuse to get drunk every year.

But not any more. Now assimilation is imperialist and racist and bad. Indeed, in Europe, which is several kilometer markers further down this road than we are, assimilation is actively discouraged. No, no, Mr. Refugee... You don't need to learn the language; you'll never be one of us anyway. You just sit there and let us feed you and keep you like a zoo animal to look at and remind ourselves that we don't feed you into ovens anymore like our parents did because we're so much better now.

We'll see who cracks first, the guests or the hosts, but sooner or later, somebody's getting loaded into cattlecars, because that's how things go in Europe.

As usual, Tam boils it down to something easy for me to read and probably exactly on target.

I'll say this though...I'm fairly certain it still works pretty much the same way even today (maybe without the ovens n stuff) just out of necessity but with a new twist...

People like the assholes who bombed Boston, or an asshole who shot up a marine recruitment center, or who shot up a military base in Texas were assimilated enough to adopt some of the gentler opinions of their college educated friends and expect special treatment for their special snowflake culture because everybody has told them they are special snowflakes from a special culture and the rest of the nation will therefore value their opinons and kowtow to them.

Fast forward to the first job out of college, the first girl who wants to have her own career or the first cop who stops them. By this time, pretty much, every chamberpot that had been emptied on them from the top window of every ivory tower had already set in good and solid. They never once considered that they were being fed a load of shit until people told them they stunk

And so, once the first girl rejected them because they couldn't get along due to cultural difference, once the first interview told them they didn't have enough experience for the job, or the first cop stopped them...essentially once the world told them they must dance to the same tune as the rest of the hoi polloi, they took to the assumption that everybody else was shitting on them and so they must correct it.

[LostDuke]

The German political Left equates any opposition to immigration, lawful or otherwise, as analogous to supporting National Socialism. It sounds crazy, but ask any German on this board, and they'll tell you it's absolutely true. Not wanting to be branded as a fascist or Nazi sympathizer has silenced many Germans in public. I correspond regularly with friends and family living in Germany, and I, like JohnCorey, can confirm that this situation in Europe isn't nearly as benign as many Western media outlets portray it.

Furthermore, the large influx of military aged males in this group should be of concern, and I hope that there are vetting mechanisms in place in Germany to ensure that these individuals were not affiliated with terrorist organizations.



You conveniently omit the fact that East and West Germans shared, for the most part, a similar culture. The people coming to Germany in this migratory landslide share none of that, which contributes significantly to social, political and religious strife. I stand by my earlier comments.

I do appreciate the discourse on the subject, and thank you for your contributions.

I did not conveniently omit nothing, I thought I did not need to state the obvious. They were all Germans, same language, same food, same religions same ancestors. I know, everybody knows. Let's not find always a way to accuse the people you disagree with of being in bad faith. When I quote sources, they don't count. When I don't state every little thing, I am intentionally and conveniently hiding stuff. Come on.

We do not know yet what the landslide you mention will bring; it might contribute to strifes of various natures, while also possibly adding value to society. As usual, the final result will be a mix of both. I do not have family in Germany, I get my information from public available sources so I can't comment to your statements. I take statements like "I have family/friend/buddies whatever with skepticism, I don't know who they are, what their sources are etc.

With that logic, would you believe any liberal just because they are born here, live here and have family here? I think not.

From the beginning, my point was and is that I strongly disagree with the notion of impending doom coming from helping people escaping the horrid massacre taking place in Syria. Jordan, which a population less than 10% that of Germany and a fraction of the resources, has taken in over ½ million refugees and so far has not been taken over by Isis, far from it. I know and understand they are also Muslim, but they are a world away from the ideals of the Isis people, so they are also their enemy.

I think personally that 1) showing mercy towards this people will reverberate positively in the Arab world, and in Iran. 2) the frequent "oh my I disagree so we are all doomed tomorrow" calls are wildly overstated.

We shall see how things will play out in Europe, and if this powder keg explodes or not in the near future. Me thinks not. Putin? Now that worries me ten times more if you want to discuss kegs.

[Kyle Reese]

I did not conveniently omit nothing, I thought I did not need to state the obvious. They were all Germans, same language, same food, same religions same ancestors. I know, everybody knows. Let's not find always a way to accuse the people you disagree with of being in bad faith. When I quote sources, they don't count. When I don't state every little thing, I am intentionally and conveniently hiding stuff. Come on.

We do not know yet what the landslide you mention will bring; it might contribute to strifes of various natures, while also possibly adding value to society. As usual, the final result will be a mix of both. I do not have family in Germany, I get my information from public available sources so I can't comment to your statements. I take statements like "I have family/friend/buddies whatever with skepticism, I don't know who they are, what their sources are etc.

With that logic, would you believe any liberal just because they are born here, live here and have family here? I think not.

From the beginning, my point was and is that I strongly disagree with the notion of impending doom coming from helping people escaping the horrid massacre taking place in Syria. Jordan, which a population less than 10% that of Germany and a fraction of the resources, has taken in over ½ million refugees and so far has not been taken over by Isis, far from it. I know and understand they are also Muslim, but they are a world away from the ideals of the Isis people, so they are also their enemy.

I think personally that 1) showing mercy towards this people will reverberate positively in the Arab world, and in Iran. 2) the frequent "oh my I disagree so we are all doomed tomorrow" calls are wildly overstated.

We shall see how things will play out in Europe, and if this powder keg explodes or not in the near future. Me thinks not. Putin? Now that worries me ten times more if you want to discuss kegs.

Europe accepting these people will generate virtually zero "goodwill" between the Arab world and the West, in my estimation. If the greater Arab world cared about these people, they'd do a bit more (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/04/the-arab-worlds-wealthiest-nations-are-doing-next-to-nothing-for-syrias-refugees/) to help them. 12'er Shi'a Iran caring one iota about the fate of predominately Sunni Arabs? I think not.

I don't disagree with you regarding Russia.

[LostDuke]

Europe accepting these people will generate virtually zero "goodwill" between the Arab world and the West, in my estimation. If the greater Arab world cared about these people, they'd do a bit more (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/04/the-arab-worlds-wealthiest-nations-are-doing-next-to-nothing-for-syrias-refugees/) to help them. 12'er Shi'a Iran caring one iota about the fate of predominately Sunni Arabs? I think not.

I don't disagree with you regarding Russia.

Well according to this chart (http://www.mercycorps.org/articles/turkey-iraq-jordan-lebanon-syria/quick-facts-what-you-need-know-about-syria-crisi), several Arab countries do care. Not the rich Emirates for sure, and it has been discussed plenty. I agree with regards to them.

I stand by my assessment, people in the Arab world will take notice of what is going on with these people. This picture (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/02/shocking-image-of-drowned-syrian-boy-shows-tragic-plight-of-refugees#img-2) did not only shock the West, it went all around the world.

[TCinVA]

Well according to this chart (http://www.mercycorps.org/articles/turkey-iraq-jordan-lebanon-syria/quick-facts-what-you-need-know-about-syria-crisi), several Arab countries do care. Not the rich Emirates for sure, and it has been discussed plenty. I agree with regards to them.

I stand by my assessment, people in the Arab world will take notice of what is going on with these people. This picture (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/02/shocking-image-of-drowned-syrian-boy-shows-tragic-plight-of-refugees#img-2) did not only shock the West, it went all around the world.

Intervening to stop the slaughter of Serbian muslims didn't seem to buy us much good will.

[LostDuke]

Intervening to stop the slaughter of Serbian muslims didn't seem to buy us much good will.

True, I agree.

This is not a military intervention though, very different situation. I am not sure about the goodwill, I think that the welcome will resonate particularly when compared to the various Emirates.

[Default.mp3]

If the greater Arab world cared about these people, they'd do a bit more (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/04/the-arab-worlds-wealthiest-nations-are-doing-next-to-nothing-for-syrias-refugees/) to help them.

The BBC had an article about that, though I do not know how accurate it is; still, it presents an interesting POV:

Images of Syrian refugees stuck at borders and at train stations, not to mention the harrowing picture of three-year-old Alan Kurdi lying dead on a Turkish beach, have spurred on an outcry for more to be done to help those fleeing the war.

Particular anger has focused on the Arab states of the Gulf Cooperation Council (Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman and the UAE), who have kept their doors to refugees firmly shut.

Amid the criticism, it is important to remember that the Gulf states have not stood by and done nothing for Syria's refugees.

The generosity of individuals has at times been quite remarkable.

Individual charitable collections have totalled hundreds of thousands of dollars, and when workers at national industries (for example, Qatar Petroleum) were asked if they wished to place part of their salary aside every month for Syria's refugees, many obliged.

The Gulf states have provided in total around $900m (£600m) through charitable organisations, and individual donations.

However, as Syria's war has dragged on, providing resources for refugees living in camps has become inadequate.

The world has had to find other solutions to cope with this mass population movement, as Syrians tired of war and of languishing in camps with little hope of social or financial betterment have begun to leave the conflict zone in search of a more secure and prosperous future.

In short, providing food and shelter for people living in camps was a solution for yesterday's problem. The most pressing issue is now finding hundreds of thousands of people somewhere to live, and it is here where the Gulf states have really begun to struggle for answers.

Instability fears

While the Gulf states have allowed some Syrian nationals in (Saudi Arabia says it has let in 500,000 since 2011), primarily as migrant workers, there has been no explicit policy from any of these countries to house refugees arriving en masse without sponsors or work permits.

To explain this requires delving deeper into Gulf states' fears regarding political stability within their own borders, and into larger questions of civic identity and the notion of what being a citizen of a Gulf state means.

In 2012 as the war with Bashar al-Assad began to become a more clearly established competition between Sunni Gulf Arab interests and Iranian aligned allies, deep fears began to pervade the Gulf states that Syrians loyal to Mr Assad would seek to infiltrate the Gulf to exact revenge.

Screening of Syrian travellers to the Gulf began apace, and it became markedly more difficult for Syrians to receive work permits or renew existing permits.

The policy has not yet changed, with Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE in particular extremely concerned about the potential for Assad loyalists to strike back.

Rumours have persisted in the Gulf for the past three years of cells of terrorist suspects being rounded up quietly and detained, although no direct proof of a plot by Assad supporters has ever come to light in public.

Demographic balance

Additionally, the influx of thousands of Syrians at once would threaten to overturn a highly delicate demographic balance that the Gulf states rely on to keep functioning.

For example, citizens in the UAE and Qatar number a little over 10% of the resident populations in their respective countries. The vast majority of residents are transitory economic workers.

Foreigners are only allowed residency if they or their spouse have full-time jobs - there is no possibility to remain permanently in the Gulf without work - and once their contracts are up almost all migrants return home.

This is how the Gulf works - with a high turnover of low and high skilled labour, which allows the native Gulf Arab populations to maintain their dominant status without being overrun by Arabs from other countries, or South Asian labourers.

Muted discourse

So the idea of thousands of foreigners coming in, without employment or any definite return date, is deeply uncomfortable for Gulf states.

There is no precedent (not even the Palestinian exodus of 1948) that matches the scale of the demographic threat Syrian refugees pose to Gulf identity and social composition. And the Gulf states simply have no response to questions the Syrian refugee crisis poses.

It is very difficult to see how these ingrained fears of demographic change and threats to civic identity can be overturned through public pressure or diplomacy, particularly from Western countries.

There is very little public conversation to pressure the Gulf's ruling families to change course.

Furthermore, Gulf elites feel this mess would never have happened in the first place had the West done something sooner to deal with Mr Assad and his regime. Pleas from Western diplomats are likely to fall on deaf ears.
Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34173139

Oh, and I suppose it's not surprising to see Tamara's first returning posts to be in such a thread. WB, Tam.

[LostDuke]

Interesting article, that puts things in perspective for some countries. I heard on the radio -NPR or BBC I can't remember- a recent interview with a Saudi Arabian diplomat or government official saying their number is at zero just because they have no official refugee law, so nobody is classified as such. He claimed that in reality they have taken hundred of thousands of Syrians in, just not named refugees. Oh, and money. Lots of that.

[johncorey]

I did not conveniently omit nothing, I thought I did not need to state the obvious. They were all Germans, same language, same food, same religions same ancestors. I know, everybody knows. Let's not find always a way to accuse the people you disagree with of being in bad faith. When I quote sources, they don't count. When I don't state every little thing, I am intentionally and conveniently hiding stuff. Come on.

We do not know yet what the landslide you mention will bring; it might contribute to strifes of various natures, while also possibly adding value to society. As usual, the final result will be a mix of both. I do not have family in Germany, I get my information from public available sources so I can't comment to your statements. I take statements like "I have family/friend/buddies whatever with skepticism, I don't know who they are, what their sources are etc.

With that logic, would you believe any liberal just because they are born here, live here and have family here? I think not.

From the beginning, my point was and is that I strongly disagree with the notion of impending doom coming from helping people escaping the horrid massacre taking place in Syria. Jordan, which a population less than 10% that of Germany and a fraction of the resources, has taken in over ½ million refugees and so far has not been taken over by Isis, far from it. I know and understand they are also Muslim, but they are a world away from the ideals of the Isis people, so they are also their enemy.

I think personally that 1) showing mercy towards this people will reverberate positively in the Arab world, and in Iran. 2) the frequent "oh my I disagree so we are all doomed tomorrow" calls are wildly overstated.

We shall see how things will play out in Europe, and if this powder keg explodes or not in the near future. Me thinks not. Putin? Now that worries me ten times more if you want to discuss kegs.

You may not have "omitted nothing" but you certainly ignored plenty. It has been pointed out more than once how and why the comparison between the current crisis and the Wall coming down is false choice on your part. So you see, you kind of have to involve everything when making such grand misstatements. You also never posted any sources. The links were to opinion pieces from outside players. That does not qualify as a source.

We absolutely do know what this landslide is bringing with it. Just because you choose to ignore the current, tangible effects on the ground does not make them any less real. You are speaking in the future tense, when in fact there reality is already here. No need for speculation on current actions. It is absolutely your prerogative to ignore what some of us have relayed from our friends and relatives over there. In military jargon this is known as "ignoring the man on the ground". Leads to the best outcomes every time.

I have yet to see anyone post here that ISIS is going to take over Germany due to this flood wave of refugees. Please refer me to the post where you read that. Also, "a world away from the ideals of the Isis people"? Care to rethink that statement.

Your arguments flip flop between posts. In post 65 you think this will generate good will. In post 69 you are not sure about it anymore. Which one is it? Do yourself a favor and check the history of Western generated "good will" in regards to muslim refugees.

Referencing the term "Putin" in connection with this thread does not add any value. Currently, Putin is buying conducting a massive counter-terrorism campaign in and around Russia's southern borders. The target? You guessed it- Muslims.



It is totally fine to not be very well versed in any subject, especially if you have no personal interest in it, or any first hand experience. What is not fine is to continue to throw out unsupported statements, in spite of facts to the contrary being presented. Pistol-Forum has generated many solid debates with numerous sides disagreeing based on their first hand, primary experiences, all of which are rooted in fact. When "I thinks" are the only 'fact' or 'evidence' pieces presented, that becomes a problem.

[johncorey]

The German political Left equates any opposition to immigration, lawful or otherwise, as analogous to supporting National Socialism. It sounds crazy, but ask any German on this board, and they'll tell you it's absolutely true. Not wanting to be branded as a fascist or Nazi sympathizer has silenced many Germans in public, and there are still significant cultural taboos in place in Germany which strongly frown upon overt displays of nationalist sentiment.

For instance, flying the current German flag from a private home would be interpreted as a provocative nationalist act, and actively frowned upon. I correspond regularly with friends and family living in Germany, and I, like JohnCorey, can confirm that this situation in Europe isn't nearly as benign as many Western media outlets portray it. I trust their first hand accounts and impressions over the mass-media.

Spot on. The only time it's cool or allowed to be a rabid, chest thumping, flag waving, proud German, is when the German National Team (soccer) is playing. After the game, the flags get rolled up and put away until next time.

[johncorey]

Cattle cars, tumbrels, autos da fé... toe-may-toe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Grandes_Mis%C3%A8res_de_la_guerre), toe-mah-toe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_%28Picasso%29)...

Da'esh might want to think hard before they try and look all scary burning captives in onesie-twosie executions in order to spook people who burn whole cities full of sleeping women and children when they get scared enough.


I suppose I should have phrased it to be "in recent European history". The coming issues will undoubtedly boil over into violence. How long it stays low-level, and how far it spreads remains to be seen. The patterns set do not bode well for Olde Europe.

[johncorey]

The BBC had an article about that, though I do not know how accurate it is; still, it presents an interesting POV:

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34173139

Oh, and I suppose it's not surprising to see Tamara's first returning posts to be in such a thread. WB, Tam.


From what I have been able to gleam, the cash donations are aiding in the migration TO Germany. This makes sense and the outcome can be clearly measured. The journey from Syria/regional AOs to Germany/France/England is a massive undertaking. One which requires beaucoup dollars. TSAF. The Gulf state donations are allowing them to point to a tangible help for these refugees (look at all this cash we're giving them), while at the same time helping them unload the problem far away from their door steps (aiding in the exportation into mainland Europe). The Arab states are keenly aware of how destabilizing it is when you have a forced influx of refugees, IE Black September and their formation in the HK of Jordan. The last thing any of them want is a significant size of these groups inside their borders.

[45dotACP]

True, I agree.

This is not a military intervention though, very different situation. I am not sure about the goodwill, I think that the welcome will resonate particularly when compared to the various Emirates.

No lie, I wouldn't be surprised if it made us more enemies. There is seriously no telling once we open that can of worms because the people that hate us will probably still hate us, Iran will still be looking for nuclear power and telling us to go fuck off, most of the terrorists in the region will still hate us and look for reasons to blow us up and Israel will still be looking at us mouthing "WTF?" all while Putin laughs at us, says "Go for it!" and starts planning another march into Ukraine.

Trying to navigate through the politics of the middle east is just a mess...Rooting for Afghanistan against the Soviets, fight Afghanistan, help Iraq fight Iran, then war with Iraq, then leave before the war is over, then war with Iraq again, then kowtow to Iranian demands for nuclear power while they tell us "btw we still h8 u" then we say "we can't just stand by and do nothing" about Syria.

Today's friends become tomorrows enemies and I am sick of it. I'm just done dude. I'm almost at the point of saying "fuck it, let the place burn and advise planes to fly around the radioactive wasteland it seems to so desperately want to become."

[johncorey]

No lie, I wouldn't be surprised if it made us more enemies. There is seriously no telling once we open that can of worms because the people that hate us will probably still hate us, Iran will still be looking for nuclear power and telling us to go fuck off, most of the terrorists in the region will still hate us and look for reasons to blow us up and Israel will still be looking at us mouthing "WTF?" all while Putin laughs at us, says "Go for it!" and starts planning another march into Ukraine.

Trying to navigate through the politics of the middle east is just a mess...Rooting for Afghanistan against the Soviets, fight Afghanistan, help Iraq fight Iran, then war with Iraq, then leave before the war is over, then war with Iraq again, then kowtow to Iranian demands for nuclear power while they tell us "btw we still h8 u" then we say "we can't just stand by and do nothing" about Syria.

Today's friends become tomorrows enemies and I am sick of it. I'm just done dude. I'm almost at the point of saying "fuck it, let the place burn and advise planes to fly around the radioactive wasteland it seems to so desperately want to become."



The only reason we still give a flip to not let it all burn is their oil. Not because they have it, but because the stuff they do have costs roughly $.30/barrel to get out of the ground. It's the cheapest, most available and that's why we care. Once that goes bye-bye, or Iran fulfills its own Manifest Destiny in the PERSIAN Gulf, we will stop caring enough to keep things semi-stable. End of my thread drift.

[Tamara]

I suppose I should have phrased it to be "in recent European history".

In the 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th Centuries, Europe only missed a convulsive, nations-in-arms and war-to-the-knife incident in one of them (the 18th) and that's because the one in the 17th was so horrible that Europeans were so put off their feed about how savage they could be in war that they turned it into a sort of kabuki theater spectator sport for a couple generations (at least when conducted amongst fellow crackers.) We're coming up on the 80th anniversary of the start of the last one...

[LostDuke]

You may not have "omitted nothing" but you certainly ignored plenty. It has been pointed out more than once how and why the comparison between the current crisis and the Wall coming down is false choice on your part. So you see, you kind of have to involve everything when making such grand misstatements. You also never posted any sources. The links were to opinion pieces from outside players. That does not qualify as a source.

We absolutely do know what this landslide is bringing with it. Just because you choose to ignore the current, tangible effects on the ground does not make them any less real. You are speaking in the future tense, when in fact there reality is already here. No need for speculation on current actions. It is absolutely your prerogative to ignore what some of us have relayed from our friends and relatives over there. In military jargon this is known as "ignoring the man on the ground". Leads to the best outcomes every time.

I have yet to see anyone post here that ISIS is going to take over Germany due to this flood wave of refugees. Please refer me to the post where you read that. Also, "a world away from the ideals of the Isis people"? Care to rethink that statement.

Your arguments flip flop between posts. In post 65 you think this will generate good will. In post 69 you are not sure about it anymore. Which one is it? Do yourself a favor and check the history of Western generated "good will" in regards to muslim refugees.

Referencing the term "Putin" in connection with this thread does not add any value. Currently, Putin is buying conducting a massive counter-terrorism campaign in and around Russia's southern borders. The target? You guessed it- Muslims.



It is totally fine to not be very well versed in any subject, especially if you have no personal interest in it, or any first hand experience. What is not fine is to continue to throw out unsupported statements, in spite of facts to the contrary being presented. Pistol-Forum has generated many solid debates with numerous sides disagreeing based on their first hand, primary experiences, all of which are rooted in fact. When "I thinks" are the only 'fact' or 'evidence' pieces presented, that becomes a problem.

The fact that you point out that you disagree with my analogy does not make it false, nor a "grand misstatement". Germany has a unique experience in integrating and educating a huge amount of undereducated under skilled workers. I do not consider this irrelevant at all in the current situation. Considering I have quoted one of the biggest newspapers in Germany and you have quoted nothing at all, I choose to ignore your claim that I have posted no sources. It's so blatantly false I find it amusing you maintain it.

As for ignoring your "friends and relatives" yes I do. I have friends in New York. Care to know their opinion the next time a gun control issue comes up? By the way, I have plenty of friends in Europe as well, and I consider their opinion is as irrelevant as that of your friends in this discussion. Also, I speak two European languages fluently, so I have access to a wealth of sources directly from there and that makes me less dependent on friends.

As for ISIS. Let's not forget your initial statements:


"Europe is totally Effed in the A, as they say. The tipping point has long been surpassed... and your only source
the great prophet Nostradamus saw all this coming when he predicted "The Camel will drink from the Rhine"....

Personally I prefer a major German newspaper as a source than the charlatan Nostradamus, but ehi! To each one his own. So your implications, as classy as they are documented, is that Europe is going down the drain, and camel riders will rule the land. If that is not a reference to ISIS and Muslim conquest I don't know what is. So may I say that your latest statement
I have yet to see anyone post here that ISIS is going to take over Germany due to this flood wave of refugees. contradicts directly what you said, unless you were implying that the above mentioned camels would be driven by Swiss bankers, in which case I apologize.

______

As for my two posts, I use the term "I think" not with a degree of absolute certainty, but a lot of doubts. I think BUT I do not know if this will bring goodwill. I flip flop like Mitt Romney, meaning I think on issues and develop opinions. These are the days of the Trumps, so yes I guess I flip flop.

_____

The reference to Putin is absolutely apropos in the context of the Syrian refugee crisis. If you do not see that, if you do not know that the Russian regime is a major supporter of the Assad regime than let's stick to Nostradamus. Google "Putin Syria", some interesting points of reflection come up.

______

As for your last statement,
It is totally fine to not be very well versed in any subject, especially if you have no personal interest in it, or any first hand experience. I can only offer the observation that condescension is not a sign of education and competency, on the contrary. You do not know me, my personal interests, my experiences so please stop attacking, particularly when you claim that your statements are based on
first hand, primary experiences, all of which are rooted in fact.. when the only source you offered is Nostradamus.

[Alpha Sierra]

Viktor Orban is the only European leader with a clue about what to do

Comparing these cultural and religious foreigners to East Germans and thinking that there is even a hint of equivalency is a pretty good example of naivete.

Those people do not belong in Europe, or anywhere else in the democratic, Christian west. They need to stay in the arab world and the fact that other arabs won't have them should tell us all that we need to know.

[LostDuke]

Viktor Orban is the only European leader with a clue about what to do

Comparing these cultural and religious foreigners to East Germans and thinking that there is even a hint of equivalency is a pretty good example of naivete.

Those people do not belong in Europe, or anywhere else in the democratic, Christian west. They need to stay in the arab world and the fact that other arabs won't have them should tell us all that we need to know.

Orban and Merkel govern two very different countries, we can all agree to that. Germany needs immigrants (http://www.dw.com/en/migrants-needed-in-germany-to-compensate-for-aging-population/a-17350390), pretty badly actually. There is a powder keg, not only in Germany but in Italy for example, and is the combination of aging population and dwindling pension funds. From the article I quote:


Germany, it is estimated, needs up to 1.5 million skilled workers in the coming years because of demographic developments. Migrants help "to secure economic development and to stabilize the welfare system,"

This crisis brings a lot of young people to a country lacking young people. Charity aside, Merkel is doing what is good for Germany. Will there be bad apples in the basket? I am sure, but am sure that there were Italian and Turkish bad apples in the previous waves, and they thrived plenty out of those waves as well.

Just to be crystal clear: I am comparing this crisis to the integration of East Germany from an operational, logistical, know-how point of view. I am aware that these guys don't speak German, don't eat wurst, for the most won't partake in beer or enjoy the views the Oktoberfest has to offer. On the other hand, if this does not convert you (http://www.livetradingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/oktoberfest-2.jpg) to German values, I do not know what can.

[Alpha Sierra]

Orban and Merkel govern two very different countries, we can all agree to that. Germany needs immigrants (http://www.dw.com/en/migrants-needed-in-germany-to-compensate-for-aging-population/a-17350390), pretty badly actually. There is a powder keg, not only in Germany but in Italy for example, and is the combination of aging population and dwindling pension funds. From the article I quote:



This crisis brings a lot of young people to a country lacking young people. Charity aside, Merkel is doing what is good for Germany. Will there be bad apples in the basket? I am sure, but am sure that there were Italian and Turkish bad apples in the previous waves, and they thrived plenty out of those waves as well.

Just to be crystal clear: I am comparing this crisis to the integration of East Germany from an operational, logistical, know-how point of view. I am aware that these guys don't speak German, don't eat wurst, for the most won't partake in beer or enjoy the views the Oktoberfest has to offer. On the other hand, if this does not convert you (http://www.livetradingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/oktoberfest-2.jpg) to German values, I do not know what can.

Merkel is doing what's good for her and her party, not what's best for Germany. No different than Obama. Deutsche Welle is just parroting the government line on this. The leftist intelligentsia will do anything, including selling out Germany's soul and identity, to satisfy the welfare state god.

If you think the wave of muslims coming in are going to become nice industrious little "germans" you may want to check how that's working out for France......

[LostDuke]

Merkel is doing what's good for her and her party, not what's best for Germany. No different than Obama.

If you think the wave of muslims coming in are going to become nice industrious little "germans" you may want to check how that's working out for France......

This is not about what I think, I was quoting German sources. Their pension crisis is measurable and massive, and they are acting accordingly. I'd rather compare that to what both parties are NOT doing here on the Social Security crisis, but this is my opinion.

As for France, they have shown Europe what NOT to do in terms of integrating huge numbers of North Africans, you are absolutely right. It is not the only way though, Germany has had and has a lot of experience with Turks.

[Alpha Sierra]

This is not about what I think, I was quoting German sources. Their pension crisis is measurable and massive, and they are acting accordingly.
As I said, they're wrong if they think they are going to gain industrious little germans out of these foreign invaders. In fact, just the opposite will happen: their welfare system will be strained even harder for generations to come. That's the point of the French comparison.


I'd rather compare that to what both parties are NOT doing here on the Social Security crisis, but this is my opinion.
Some things are better left to die and blow away in the wind.

[LostDuke]

As I said, they're wrong if they think they are going to gain industrious little germans out of these foreign invaders. In fact, just the opposite will happen: their welfare system will be strained even harder for generations to come. That's the point of the French comparison.


Some things are better left to die and blow away in the wind.

Both scenarios are possible, I would say Germany has a much better record in integrating Turks than France has of integrating Algerians but I am not 100% sure. On the other hand, I think they are acting in a measured thoughtful way, you can rearrange immigration policies but you CAN'T change the demographics of your population in the short term.

[JHC]

Both scenarios are possible, I would say Germany has a much better record in integrating Turks than France has of integrating Algerians but I am not 100% sure. On the other hand, I think they are acting in a measured thoughtful way, you can rearrange immigration policies but you CAN'T change the demographics of your population in the short term.

If they are then they are calculating the decay of their civilizations including further skyrocketing rates of sexual assault of their daughters (look it up across Norway/Sweden) is worth the cheaper, plentiful labor. The empirical data is there and they know it. Not to mention larger petri dishes for all out terrorists.

[Jeep]

If they are then they are calculating the decay of their civilizations including further skyrocketing rates of sexual assault of their daughters (look it up across Norway/Sweden) is worth the cheaper, plentiful labor. The empirical data is there and they know it. Not to mention larger petri dishes for all out terrorists.

Your point is well taken. There is a lot of data now available about the integration of Moslems into European society. With a few exceptions--for example Indian Moslems in Britain, who are doing well--assimilation has largely not been working, and alienation (especially of the young men) has been increasing. The rape outbreak in Scandinavia is very real although political elites there largely refuse to acknowledge it, and while this might not be politically correct, my view is that a society that doesn't try to protect its women is a society that is likely to fail.

[johncorey]

Viktor Orban is the only European leader with a clue about what to do

Comparing these cultural and religious foreigners to East Germans and thinking that there is even a hint of equivalency is a pretty good example of naivete.

Those people do not belong in Europe, or anywhere else in the democratic, Christian west. They need to stay in the arab world and the fact that other arabs won't have them should tell us all that we need to know.


I'm very happy to hear an actual Leader like Orban carpet bombing the media with the truth. It's so refreshing to hear, especially in light of the drivel which has been seeping out from most of the rest. I do note that as seems to be par for this crisis, the Western Euro governments and media are largely ignoring and downplaying him. Where have I seen that before....

[TCinVA]

If they are then they are calculating the decay of their civilizations including further skyrocketing rates of sexual assault of their daughters (look it up across Norway/Sweden) is worth the cheaper, plentiful labor. The empirical data is there and they know it. Not to mention larger petri dishes for all out terrorists.

Multiculturalism and political correctness are powerful drugs.

[johncorey]

And just like any drug, an overdose will more than likely kill the user.

[Jeep]

These last two posts ought to be required reading for our political leadership.

[Kyle Reese]

And just like any drug, an overdose will more than likely kill the user.

Nonsense. Tante Merkel has assured us that all is well, and I'm sure that the German media is as fair, principled, unbiased and impartial as their American counterparts on this issue.

[Drang]

We'll see who cracks first, the guests or the hosts, but sooner or later, somebody's getting loaded into cattlecars, because that's how things go in Europe.
Say the "Zero to Jackboot" thing! 'Cuz I couldn't get it right...

[johncorey]

It'll all be different. This time.

[Drang]

Anyone read this one yet?: The Camp of the Saints (1973), Jean Raspail - AmazonSmile (http://www.amazon.com/Camp-Saints-Jean-Raspail-ebook/dp/B00QKNDV9S/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8&me=)
Amazon synopsis:

The Camp of the Saints is a novel about population migration and its consequences. In Calcutta, India, the Belgian government announces a policy in which Indian babies will be adopted and raised in Belgium. The policy is soon reversed after the Belgian consulate is inundated with poverty-stricken parents eager to give up their infant children.

An Indian "wise man" then rallies the masses to make a mass exodus to live in Europe. Most of the story centers on the French Riviera, where almost no one remains except for the military and a few civilians, including a retired professor who has been watching the huge fleet of run-down freighters approaching the French coast.

The story alternates between the French reaction to the mass immigration and the attitude of the immigrants. They have no desire to assimilate into French culture but want the plentiful goods that are in short supply in their native India. Although the novel focuses on France, the rest of the West shares its fate.

Near the end of the story the mayor of New York City is made to share Gracie Mansion with three families from Harlem, the Queen of the United Kingdom must agree to have her son marry a Pakistani woman, and only one drunken Soviet soldier stands in the way of thousands of Chinese people as they swarm into Siberia. The one holdout until the end of the novel is Switzerland, but by then international pressure isolating it as a rogue state for not opening its borders forces it to capitulate.

[johncorey]

Anyone read this one yet?: The Camp of the Saints (1973), Jean Raspail - AmazonSmile (http://www.amazon.com/Camp-Saints-Jean-Raspail-ebook/dp/B00QKNDV9S/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8&me=)
Amazon synopsis:


Cannot say that I have. Definitely will be worth a look.

PS: I too dabble in donating via Amazon Smile.

[Alpha Sierra]

Anyone read this one yet?: The Camp of the Saints (1973), Jean Raspail - AmazonSmile (http://www.amazon.com/Camp-Saints-Jean-Raspail-ebook/dp/B00QKNDV9S/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8&me=)
Amazon synopsis:

Alternate ending: American citizens have had enough, take up arms and revolt, and start stuffing people into cattle cars

[TCinVA]

Saudi Arabia has apparently offered to help the refugees.

...by building mosques. In Germany.

I think that nicely demonstrates what's really going on here.

[johncorey]

Let me find my shocked mask. My severe disdain for the House of Saud is hard to quantify. It actually prevented me from going going to one of my top university choices for undergrad.

[Jeep]

Anyone read this one yet?: The Camp of the Saints (1973), Jean Raspail - AmazonSmile (http://www.amazon.com/Camp-Saints-Jean-Raspail-ebook/dp/B00QKNDV9S/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8&me=)
Amazon synopsis:

Yes--I read it when it came out, which I see was over 40 years ago. My memory is that it had a very French sensibility and that the translation was sometimes awkward. It was written during the early years of the first mass immigration into Europe, and its essential theory is that Europe was so decadent and politically correct that it couldn't stand up for itself. An undercurrent is that the literal imposition of the socialist mantra--from each according to his ability, to each according to his need--paralyzes the ability of people to defend themselves against those poorer than themselves who want to steal from them, and in the end will result in the destruction of any advanced culture as well as in universal poverty.

We are getting to see it play out in real time now.

[Jeep]

Saudi Arabia has apparently offered to help the refugees.

...by building mosques. In Germany.

I think that nicely demonstrates what's really going on here.

Where is Charles Martel when you need him?

[johncorey]

...or Karl the Great....

[Jeep]

...or Karl the Great....

Some huge portion of the people in the US and Western Europe, are descended from good old Karl der grosse (and hence Charles Martel), including our current much-loved President, and probably our Secretary of State. The blood has kind of thinned out over the centuries, hasn't it?

[Kyle Reese]

Saudi Arabia has apparently offered to help the refugees.

...by building mosques. In Germany.

I think that nicely demonstrates what's really going on here.

I saw the same thing in Bosnia in 2001-2002. Lots of new, Saudi funded mosques. It's no accident that the government of BiH has had problems with Salafist ideology and associated terrorist factions springing up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[johncorey]

I saw the same thing in Bosnia in 2001-2002. Lots of new, Saudi funded mosques. It's no accident that the government of BiH has had problems with Salafist ideology and associated terrorist factions springing up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm sure you are aware, but that goes much further back than early 2Ks. In the mid 90s when we (the US) were finally catching on to that issue so close to US interests, it was already far too late. When our special folks were starting to conduct reconnaissance against various groups there, the level of training became apparent by the SDRs being run by the baddies. There is a pretty darn solid novel which delves into this very connection. Henry Porter's "Empire State"

Anyways, with various recent developments springing up, my timeline may have been too conservative. Things are very fluid and dynamic. A DEC/XMas end point may be more appropriate now.

[Kyle Reese]

Saudi Arabia offers Germany 200 mosques – one for every 100 refugees who arrived last weekend

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/saudi-arabia-offers-germany-200-mosques--one-for-every-100-refugees-who-arrived-last-weekend-10495082.html

[Drang]

So, this showed up in my RSS feed: Instapundit » Blog Archive » SPOILER: NO. Reihan Salam: Does Donald Trump represent the ascendancy of white nationalism on the American right? (http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/213812/)
Which sounds like it belongs in one of the threads discussing whether or not Trump is a serious candidate.

But wait! There's more!

Following was quoted:

In a 1916 essay in the Atlantic, Randolph Bourne, at the time one of America’s leading left-wing intellectuals, attacked the melting-pot ideal, in which immigrants to the United States and their descendants were expected to assimilate into a common culture. He saw instead America evolving into “a cosmopolitan federation of national colonies, of foreign cultures, from whom the sting of devastating competition has been removed.” Instead of forging a common American identity, the country he envisioned would be one where members of minority ethnic groups preserved their cultural separateness.

To fully realize this ideal, however, it was vitally important that Anglo-Saxon Americans not assert themselves in the same way as the members of other ethnic groups. Why? Because if Anglo-Saxon Americans were to celebrate their identity as a people with longstanding ties to their American homeland, it would implicitly discount the American-ness of those from minority ethnic backgrounds. For Bourne, and for those who’ve advocated for his brand of cultural pluralism since, it is the obligation of Anglo-Saxon Americans, and other white Americans with no strong ties to a non-American homeland, to be post-ethnic cosmopolitans. But what if being a post-ethnic cosmopolitan is not actually that satisfying?

In his highly inventive 2004 book The Rise and Fall of Anglo-America, the sociologist Eric Kaufmann calls this bargain “asymmetrical multiculturalism.” Under asymmetrical multiculturalism, minority ethnic groups are encouraged to assert their group identities and to defend their group interests while the majority ethnic group is strongly discouraged from doing the same. Overt expressions of Jewish, Mexican, Laotian, or Bengali pride are very welcome. Overt expressions of WASP pride, however, are not. Kauffman maintains that because WASPs, and to a lesser extent other whites, are denied the option of celebrating their ethnic heritage, they instead champion essentially ideological ideas, like individualism or a vague, ill-defined belief in “American exceptionalism” that is bereft of any real cultural content.
So, once again, "American Progressivism" was seized upon by Europeans and used to model destruction. Their own, in this case. (Although you could argue that Hitler and Mussolini made the same mistake; the same could be said of Stalin, although the process took a lot longer.)

EDIT TO ADD: Link directly to original article: Donald Trump and white nationalism: Does the candidate’s rise represent the ascendency of a resentful white wing of the American right? (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/09/donald_trump_and_white_nationalism_does_the_candid ate_s_rise_represent_the.html)
It's Slate, so...

[Shellback]

Hijrah, or jihad by immigration. Reports in February (http://www.independentsentinel.com/isis-threatens-to-flood-europe-and-elsewhere-as-libyan-refugees/) were already warning of this ISIS invasion.

Quilliam Foundation reports that ISIS/ISIL/IS plans to use Libya as a gateway to Europe, sending fighters masked as refugees.

They are urging fighters to flood into Libya from Syria and Iraq to then head for Italy and elsewhere.

Quilliam, the British anti-extremist think tank translated and analyzed a document written by an Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) propagandist who uses the alias Abu Arhim al-Libim.

The document is entitled, “Libya: The Strategic Gateway for the Islamic State”, on why jihadists needed to urgently flock to Libya to assist supporters of the so-called caliphate in their jihad.

72% are single men according to UNHCR. (http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html)

http://admin.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2015-09/195245_5_.png

[Nephrology]

To be fair, it is very very very difficult to compare this current massive exile from Syria to immigration tendencies that have produced the immigrant enclaves that exist in modern europe today.

My family is French and I have spent a fair amount of time in/outside Paris, especially in my teens/early 20s. While I can't speak for other countries, the French immigration problem is largely a product of their own doing. The majority of their immigrants come from former colonial possessions (Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Mali, Senegal, Côte d'Ivoire, Cameroon, etc). They actually had 2 distinct waves of immigration - the first in the post-war era (40s-50s) and the second in the late 70s/early 80s. The first wave actually caused very few problems - workers came largely from mediterranean countries that had been largely spared the catastrophe of WWII (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Morocco being the big ones) and they were all given work (namely, reconstruction of the devastated French infrastructure) & housing. These immigrants blended in seamlessly with a fairly grateful French populace whose government provided for their needs. They have been a part of the working class fabric of Paris since forever and there have never been any issues at all.

In the 70s through to the early 90s, following a series of political crises in North & West Africa, massive amounts of former colonial citizens emigrated to France. Many of these were escaping political violence and came to France during a time of economic recession. As a result, very little was done to accommodate these new immigrants, most of whom had very few skills and often a limited knowledge of the French language. They ended up in HLMs (housing projects) on the exterior of many of the major French cities, where they were isolated from the services, culture and society of the city proper. In truth, these immigrants were not such a problem - it is mostly their children, who grew up in a France that culturally was very alien to them but treated them as if they had the same upbringing as the native-born. That alienation quickly began to resemble what we have here in the US in many impoverished neighborhoods (think places like South Central LA or parts of the Bronx), and so unsurprisingly crime took hold rather quickly.

I don't pretend to know the best way to handle this sort of thing, but I do think it is very important that we not treat all immigrants as the same. After all, we as Americans are definitionally immigrants by heritage. My ancestors came here from France & French Canada about a century ago - the Canadian half of my family being largely working class immigrants with few skills and lots of babies. Today I am basically a generic white person, but 100 years ago I would have been speaking Quebecois and going to a French Catholic church and getting into fights with the Irish and the Italians after I got off my shift at the cannery. Let's try to look at all of this with a degree of refinement, because like it or not, today's immigrants are tomorrow's citizens.

[TCinVA]

You know things have gotten absurd when somebody has to try and introduce "white nationalism" to boogie man the debate.

Going to the United States...or England...or France...or wherever...because one wants to live in the freedom of that society and make a better life for themselves is fine. That's what happened 100 years ago.

Today, it's this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3231451/You-prison-Video-captures-moment-commuter-tells-woman-arrested-putting-feet-train-seat.html?ito=social-facebook

...and that's bullshit. Sane people want nothing to do with this.

[Nephrology]

You know things have gotten absurd when somebody has to try and introduce "white nationalism" to boogie man the debate.

Going to the United States...or England...or France...or wherever...because one wants to live in the freedom of that society and make a better life for themselves is fine. That's what happened 100 years ago.

Today, it's this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3231451/You-prison-Video-captures-moment-commuter-tells-woman-arrested-putting-feet-train-seat.html?ito=social-facebook

...and that's bullshit. Sane people want nothing to do with this.

I believe you misunderstand my point, and in doing so illustrate precisely what I mean to say.

Firstly, I only bring up France to show how the reception (and origin) of immigrants can drastically change they way they do or do not contribute to the country they move to. That is it.

Secondly, the man in the article who got into a confrontation on the train has nothing to do with the current Syrian immigration crisis - illustrating my point exactly. I don't know what his country of origin is, or what sect of Islam he adheres to, but it is a grave mistake to assume that all Syrians would feel similarly. For example, before the onset of the Syrian civil war, there were nearly 1.8m Christians who called that country home. Now there are under 500,000. Many of those immigrants who have fled the violence are Christian - and many of them are Muslim - and yet many more probably do not adhere strictly to either religion.

My point is that to make massive blanket generalizations about the Syrian exodus is wrong; the only thing that the vast majority of the have in common is a desire for safety from physical violence. Sure, some of them may be very Muslim and hold beliefs that you and I find abhorrent. Yet many others might be even more devout Christians than you or I. Yet others are probably normal people who simply do not care for this debate and simply don't want to have their children shot or their homes bombed. This is why I think it is unhelpful to treat them as a massive homogenous bloc - it leads us to assume terrible things about who they are.

[TAZ]

Being an immigrant, I obviously have no problem with people immigrating to the US or anywhere where they feel they can improve their lives. However, what we have today across the globe is NOT immigration, Its invasion. My family left a communist third world shithole and moved to the USA. We did so legally and at a significant risk to our lives. When we arrived here in the USA we went to work. My dad who was a college professor went to work as a machinist. My mom who was homemaker went to work fast food. About the only form of government benefit we received was student loans which we are dutifully repaying. We left a third word shithole because it was a third word shithole, not because we want to evangelical and spread the faith. There isn't a single member of my family who doesn't know exactly why we left and NOT a soul among us would ever desire to turn this country into a shithole like the one we left. While a decent number of legal immigrant do the exact same thing today, there is an alarmingly large group pf folks who do not. They are like the liberal Californians who flee high taxes and lack of opportunity and then insist on creating the same policies wherever they move. We have people who refuse to learn the language, demand that we change our belief and rules to accommodate the system of the shitholes they leave behind. That is NOT immigration. We can always use more immigrtant who are hard working and want to participate in a homogeneous society. We have no use for assholes who want to blow us up, cover their women in potato sacks, or demand we set aside our beliefs in order to accommodate their needs. Screw that.

[Shellback]

Firstly, I only bring up France to show how the reception (and origin) of immigrants can drastically change they way they do or do not contribute to the country they move to. That is it.

Secondly, the man in the article who got into a confrontation on the train has nothing to do with the current Syrian immigration crisis - illustrating my point exactly...

You do realize that only 50% of the invasion is of Syrian origin.

[1slow]

Being an immigrant, I obviously have no problem with people immigrating to the US or anywhere where they feel they can improve their lives. However, what we have today across the globe is NOT immigration, Its invasion. My family left a communist third world shithole and moved to the USA. We did so legally and at a significant risk to our lives. When we arrived here in the USA we went to work. My dad who was a college professor went to work as a machinist. My mom who was homemaker went to work fast food. About the only form of government benefit we received was student loans which we are dutifully repaying. We left a third word shithole because it was a third word shithole, not because we want to evangelical and spread the faith. There isn't a single member of my family who doesn't know exactly why we left and NOT a soul among us would ever desire to turn this country into a shithole like the one we left. While a decent number of legal immigrant do the exact same thing today, there is an alarmingly large group pf folks who do not. They are like the liberal Californians who flee high taxes and lack of opportunity and then insist on creating the same policies wherever they move. We have people who refuse to learn the language, demand that we change our belief and rules to accommodate the system of the shitholes they leave behind. That is NOT immigration. We can always use more immigrtant who are hard working and want to participate in a homogeneous society. We have no use for assholes who want to blow us up, cover their women in potato sacks, or demand we set aside our beliefs in order to accommodate their needs. Screw that.

Glad you are here. Like your attitude.
Your family and you have followed the pattern of successful immigrants !

I do not get people who flee shitholes either foreign or domestic and then want to turn their new home into a copy of what they fled from.

[johncorey]

I agree mostly with the immigration VS invasion aspect. Where I would like to fine tune this is the average persons view point. From what I have experienced and continue to see today, is that these waves are virtually all pawns for those behind the scenes who wish to see this happen. The people on the ground floor have no clue what the big picture is. As has been stated before, this mass exodus costs a lot of cash, and it is being provided from some place. As always, follow the money...

[Wondering Beard]

Interesting article:

https://refugeecrisisinhungary.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/breakdown-is-imminent-says-the-policeman-who-breaks-the-rules-and-speaks-to-a-journalist/

[johncorey]

Good little read.


As I'm sure most are aware by now, but Germany has re-isntituted border control measures along its Austrian borders for the first time since the mid 90s. For all the doubter(s) who have contributed to this thread, I love to say I told you so. Vindication is extremely bittersweet here because of the obvious negative impact this crisis has been having on my birth region, family and friends. I do not profess to have any clue as to how Merkel was finally silenced and/or swayed over the last few days, but this is the first step in a series of other important steps which must be taken to try and contain this issue. It still may be far too late, depending on how Germany deals with the 500K+ which are already inside its borders.

A second order of affect will naturally be that these migrants will start to mass on the German border "controlled" border zones, much as they have inside the Hungarian attempts at a hasty zone for control. The outcome will initially be the same, or until Germany and Austria make these zones far more serious and permanent, or they crack and falter. As Tamara has identified, there will be a clear loser here.

[Kyle Reese]

Good little read.


As I'm sure most are aware by now, but Germany has re-isntituted border control measures along its Austrian borders for the first time since the mid 90s. For all the doubter(s) who have contributed to this thread, I love to say I told you so. Vindication is extremely bittersweet here because of the obvious negative impact this crisis has been having on my birth region, family and friends. I do not profess to have any clue as to how Merkel was finally silenced and/or swayed over the last few days, but this is the first step in a series of other important steps which must be taken to try and contain this issue. It still may be far too late, depending on how Germany deals with the 500K+ which are already inside its borders.

A second order of affect will naturally be that these migrants will start to mass on the German border "controlled" border zones, much as they have inside the Hungarian attempts at a hasty zone for control. The outcome will initially be the same, or until Germany and Austria make these zones far more serious and permanent, or they crack and falter. As Tamara has identified, there will be a clear loser here.

Germany (and other EU countries) could fix this problem rather quickly by making new arrivals ineligible for any state social aid. They'll self-deport quickly.

[TCinVA]

Germany (and other EU countries) could fix this problem rather quickly by making new arrivals ineligible for any state social aid. They'll self-deport quickly.

Exactly.

You don't have to build a wall or go around knocking on doors with machineguns to deport people. Stop rewarding the violation of a nation's borders and you get a hell of a lot less of it.

[johncorey]

Although I agree fully that that would be one of the most important moves in this case, our own example would show different results. With the millions of illegals living and working here, they are also technically not eligible for state assistance in accordance with the law. Yet they remain, continue to increase in numbers and continue to come.

[TCinVA]

Although I agree fully that that would be one of the most important moves in this case, our own example would show different results. With the millions of illegals living and working here, they are also technically not eligible for state assistance in accordance with the law.

"Technically" doesn't seem to have much impact on the reality. Especially with, say, medical care.

[johncorey]

Which is my point exactly. The enforcement of laws on the books would still fall onto actual humans going through the populace of illegals and enforcing them.

[TCinVA]

Which is my point exactly. The enforcement of laws on the books would still fall onto actual humans going through the populace of illegals and enforcing them.

In my area not tipping off the various workplaces that employ large numbers of illegals when ICE is about to do a "raid" would certainly friggin' help.

[johncorey]

What a concept, huh.

[TGS]

John and Fred,

Any idea if the German government is still evicting German citizens from public housing, or did that stop when they realized what a bad idea it was and concurrently closed the border?

Also, do you guys have any idea where the German citizens were relocated to, or were they simply kicked out?

[johncorey]

John and Fred,

Any idea if the German government is still evicting German citizens from public housing, or did that stop when they realized what a bad idea it was and concurrently closed the border?

Also, do you guys have any idea where the German citizens were relocated to, or were they simply kicked out?


I have no first hand account beyond the clip posted a few pages back. What I do know firsthand, is that very recently the gov there has been seeking to place refugees with families, a la exchange student type deal. X amount of 'fugees come and live with you, and the gov will give you x credit on a sliding scale. Currently one of my cousins seems to have lost her damn mind and is in fact starting the application process to host some. Her husband, their amazing 4 kids (ages 15-5), and everyone else in the fam is vehemently against this. Lord knows why she is trying to do this. In all reality it will not happen, but the fact that a very educated, highly accomplished and successful person from my family is even considering this, just goes to show that sometimes, the weirdest freaking s@*t happens.

As for the relocation, the follow up I came up with was that the locals who were given the boot, were able to find short term deals with their families and friends. Clearly far from ideal. Basically kicked out to answer your question.

[Malamute]

As for the relocation, the follow up I came up with was that the locals who were given the boot, were able to find short term deals with their families and friends. Clearly far from ideal. Basically kicked out to answer your question.

Were they using the evicted properties to build larger housing for the flood of new people, or just changing people in whatever was there?

I recall seeing something about that recently but dont recall where.

[johncorey]

Were they using the evicted properties to build larger housing for the flood of new people, or just changing people in whatever was there?

I recall seeing something about that recently but dont recall where.


No new housing to my knowledge. Just new tenants.

Approving, funding and building anything permanent would take a while. This is Germany, not a whole lot of land just sitting around ready to get expanded onto. Especially +/- 9 months from now when the babies start popping out.

[Kyle Reese]

John and Fred,

Any idea if the German government is still evicting German citizens from public housing, or did that stop when they realized what a bad idea it was and concurrently closed the border?

Also, do you guys have any idea where the German citizens were relocated to, or were they simply kicked out?

No idea, but it just illustrates the insouciance of the German govt towards the needs of its actual citizens. Could you imagine the outrage over here if we accepted......say.....3 million new refugees overnight and evicted public housing residents to quarter the new arrivals?

[johncorey]

Could you imagine the outrage over here if we accepted......say.....3 million new refugees overnight and evicted public housing residents to quarter the new arrivals?


I'd pay to see that play out in real time. Preferably in Chicago so I can get my pie fix in!

[Jeep]

No idea, but it just illustrates the insouciance of the German govt towards the needs of its actual citizens. Could you imagine the outrage over here if we accepted......say.....3 million new refugees overnight and evicted public housing residents to quarter the new arrivals?

Don't give this administration any ideas. They wouldn't evict public housing residents because they are part of the "base" but they'd be glad to declare eminent domain over large tracts of suburbs that don't vote the correct way (especially in swing states like Florida and Ohio) to house the new refugees.

[Alpha Sierra]

They wouldn't evict public housing residents because they are part of the "base" but they'd be glad to declare eminent domain over large tracts of suburbs that don't vote the correct way (especially in swing states like Florida and Ohio) to house the new refugees.

That would be a great way to start a shooting war, I assure you.

[Alpha Sierra]

Thank God for Viktor Orban, a leader with a set and a modern-day Charles Martel

http://news.yahoo.com/border-free-europe-unravels-migrant-crisis-hits-record-110230875.html?bcmt=1442348276968-00e42d5d-a199-45a5-9332-3cba73aff299&bcmt_s=u#

[Bigguy]

If we could get half of the outrage at the nimrods responsible for the conditions they are fleeing, as we do at the countries trying to maintain a reasonable population, something might happen.

[Malamute]

^ ^ Agree.

Support your local YPG, YPJ, Peshmerga and PKK.

[Tamara]

Support your local ... PKK. Are we allowed to (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers'_Party#Designation_as_a_terroris t_group)? :confused:

[johncorey]

Yeah not a fan of the PKK. On account of the warzone the helped turn Hamburg into back in the late 90s over the Abdullah Ocalan issue. The other Kurds are mainly GTG in my book.

[Malamute]

Formally, probably not. The reality is theyve been doing a lot of the actual work on the ground in Syria and I think in Iraq, certainly in getting the Yezidis off Sinjar and running ISIS back out of at least some of their (Yezidi) towns. The US/coalition had effectively been flying air support for them, as theyve been helping at the very least, in much of the anti-ISIS fighting. I dont think they try to attract attention in most of those situations, but looking at on the ground vids, theyve been around a lot, and I think are part of how YPG/J have been able to do as much work as they have. Theres a certain amount of differences and autonomy between the various Kurd groups, but also much cooperation.

ETA: JC, Yes, I think they are the rowdiest of the Kurd groups, but its hard to entirely separate them. I think theyve been evolving to some degree the past couple years.

[johncorey]

Thank God for Viktor Orban, a leader with a set and a modern-day Charles Martel

http://news.yahoo.com/border-free-europe-unravels-migrant-crisis-hits-record-110230875.html?bcmt=1442348276968-00e42d5d-a199-45a5-9332-3cba73aff299&bcmt_s=u#


I'm a fan of his. I love how Merkel still believes in such a farce as "European unity". The fair-weather nature of the EU is now coming into full view. It is becoming fairly evident that now that the dark clouds have arrived. It is most certainly not such a good deal to be a member of during trying times, when the problems actual migrate to your doorstep. Schengen is dead.

What I would not give to hear Orban channel Stalin and publicly ask: "And how many divisions does Amnesty International have?"

[johncorey]

ETA: JC, Yes, I think they are the rowdiest of the Kurd groups, but its hard to entirely separate them. I think theyve been evolving to some degree the past couple years.

If I am not mistaken, they are still the only/main group going after the Turks. The others are decently removed from that beef. Correct me if I am wrong. Plenty of vids keep popping up of PKK/Turkish forces duking it out. Seems the Turks have sourced some pretty darn solid RWS with the proper optics and calibration and are going to town on the PKK at night.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm a fan of his. I love how Merkel still believes in such a farce as "European unity". The fair-weather nature of the EU is now coming into full view. It is becoming fairly evident that now that the dark clouds have arrived. It is most certainly not such a good deal to be a member of during trying times, when the problems actual migrate to your doorstep. Schengen is dead.

What I would not give to hear Orban channel Stalin and publicly ask: "And how many divisions does Amnesty International have?"

The handwring of liberal Germans that I've seen on the www is epic in its stupidity and naivete. Agree that Schengen has blown away in the wind.

All I can hope for is that Hungary doubles down........

[Malamute]

If I am not mistaken, they are still the only/main group going after the Turks. The others are decently removed from that beef. Correct me if I am wrong. Plenty of vids keep popping up of PKK/Turkish forces duking it out. Seems the Turks have sourced some pretty darn solid RWS with the proper optics and calibration and are going to town on the PKK at night.

Yes, they are the only Kurd group having serious issues with the Turks, though it seems Turkey is doing its best to make life very unpleasant for any Kurds they can.

There was a truce for a couple years between PKK and Turkey, but all the recent ISIS issues (Turkey being strongly believed to been helping ISIS until very recently) and subsequent side effects of that have fired up the old flames.

[johncorey]

GTFO.

https://www.change.org/p/city-of-munich-ban-the-intolerant-and-anti-islamic-event-of-oktoberfest

[Tamara]

GTFO.

https://www.change.org/p/city-of-munich-ban-the-intolerant-and-anti-islamic-event-of-oktoberfest

I... dude, I have to vote it's a troll. In twenty years? I might buy it. But now? Nobody could be that dumb and still remember to breathe.

Either it's some Haji just trying to stir shit, or some conservative trying to stir shit by pretending to be Haji.

ETA: On the other hand, never underestimate the density (http://realtruth.org/articles/416-mgjhf.html) of a Fundie, so I have to consider lowering my wager... :eek:

[johncorey]

Who knows. Either way, it's out there, and I'm certain there will be beaucoup crazies on both sides who think it's real, and act accordingly.

[Totem Polar]

Who knows. Either way, it's out there, and I'm certain there will be beaucoup crazies on both sides who think it's real, and act accordingly.

Boy. I couldn't even hazard a guess which way the origin of that abomination of an idea lies. False flag, fundie, or jimmy kimmel wannabe; nothing would surprise me. :D

[Alpha Sierra]

GTFO.

https://www.change.org/p/city-of-munich-ban-the-intolerant-and-anti-islamic-event-of-oktoberfest

If I was going to bet my odds are: .35 to 1 that he's real and serious, 4 to 1 that it's a joke, and 18 to 1 it's a false flag

[Slavex]

I come to this thread late, but after experiencing some of the issues while overseas for nine weeks this summer. Before the massive shit they've got going on now they were already having issues. Norway, Sweden, Czech, Germany, even Russia. The locals are not supportive of these mass migrations of people. Countries are different now than they were before, people are more aware of certain threats, and they seem to be purposely revisiting history. I do not expect good things to come of this. My retirement plan of Czech and Spain is looking a little crazy now, maybe Belize or Columbia is a better plan. It's hard to say.
In talking with my friends in Norway and Sweden now, they are basically saying "we are fucked, totally fucked" our country is going to be broken and driven to the poor house. I expect violence to occur before that, but that's their thoughts.

[Alpha Sierra]

maybe Belize or Columbia is a better plan.

DC is not a good retirement location

[Slavex]

lol, not DC, the country.

One of our "green" mayors has said we could immediately take 20,000 refugees. Really? where are you going to put them with a massive homeless problem already and winter coming? Feed them? Clothe them? Provide internet to them (because you know they'll want it and say it's a right). This is where certain types of Liberals go nuts and ruin it for everyone.

[Alpha Sierra]

lol, not DC, the country.
Oh, Colombia. Yep nice place now.


This is where Liberals go nuts and ruin it for everyone.
FIFY

[johncorey]

I know quite a few dudes who've been saving their pennies to live it up in Belize once they hang up their guns. English, dollars, very steady, non-violent, kill whitey history and it's super cheap to live there. After looking into Belize, I can't fault them.

[Wondering Beard]

ETA: On the other hand, never underestimate the density (http://realtruth.org/articles/416-mgjhf.html) of a Fundie, so I have to consider lowering my wager... :eek:

I had no idea that ... that sort of thing (to be polite) existed.

My memories of Mardi Gras are when you make crepes (from scratch), flip them one handed as you make a wish while holding a gold coin and if you can catch it back in the pan, your wish will be granted. I like me some pagan rituals :cool:

[Alpha Sierra]

ETA: On the other hand, never underestimate the density (http://realtruth.org/articles/416-mgjhf.html) of a Fundie,
Why do you think it's OK to disrespect people for their religions beliefs?

Nowhere in that article did I read anything remotely close to "shut down Mardi Gras/Carnival because it's offensive to Christians". If you're not a devout Christian, what was in that article neither applies to you nor does it harm you.

You lose credibility when you try to make your case like that.

[Luger]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0RH2B920150917

As far as I count, this is the third time within two months, where german police had to shoot a "refuge"...

[PNWTO]

ETA: On the other hand, never underestimate the density (http://realtruth.org/articles/416-mgjhf.html) of a Fundie, so I have to consider lowering my wager... :eek:

Yep. I'm waiting for annual "War Against Halloween" to kick off. Followed by the ever-fun (/s) "War against the War against Christmas".

Or Xmas if you really want the jimmies rustled.

[LostDuke]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0RH2B920150917

As far as I count, this is the third time within two months, where german police had to shoot a "refuge"...

He could not have been a Syrian refugee, he was convicted of a crime in Germany 11 years ago so he had been in Germany way longer than that. There are certainly risks associated with the current wave of refugees, but this was not it.

[Alpha Sierra]

He could not have been a Syrian refugee, he was convicted of a crime in Germany 11 years ago so he had been in Germany way longer than that. There are certainly risks associated with the current wave of refugees, but this was not it.

A distinction without a difference......

[Luger]

There are not only refuges from syria over here. That guy was from Iraq. He was convicted of a crime, but not deportated because he faced death penalty in his home country. So he stayed in germany as a refuge.

[Alpha Sierra]

There are not only refuges from syria over here. That guy was from Iraq. He was convicted of a crime, but not deportated because he faced death penalty in his home country. So he stayed in germany as a refuge.

Your government is digging your own country's grave. You can make all the nuanced rationalizations that you like, but that won't change facts or the foreseeable future.

I'm starting to miss the Germany that had a pair

[johncorey]

Totally inferring here, but I do believe Luger was not making the statement in disagreement with your post AS, but more so against duke's.

[Jeep]

There are not only refuges from syria over here. That guy was from Iraq. He was convicted of a crime, but not deportated because he faced death penalty in his home country. So he stayed in germany as a refuge.

Luger:

Good luck--you guys are going to need it. Not only are you getting 800,000 new "refugees," who will probably turn into at least 1 million, most of whom are paradoxically for refugees, young or younger men, but my guess is that it is going to cost Germany a minimum of 10,000 Euros per "refugee" per year--and most will never be going home.

In other words, the hard-working German taxpayers will be paying at least 8 billion Euros per year to take care of the "refugees" and probably more, all so that your leaders can receive awards for how generous and humanitarian they are.

It is the people of German, however, that will be paying the financial and social cost for this looming disaster--and it appears that nothing can stop it from happening.

[TiroFijo]

Good reflection by Arturo Pérez-Reverte on the fall or the roman empire and current Europe, "The Goths arrive to the defeated empire".

If you don't read spanish, try a good online translator.

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1828991-llegan-los-godos-al-imperio-vencido

[Alpha Sierra]

Good reflection by Arturo Pérez-Reverte on the fall or the roman empire and current Europe, "The Goths arrive to the defeated empire".

If you don't read spanish, try a good online translator.

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1828991-llegan-los-godos-al-imperio-vencido

I concur with his analysis, but not with his ultimate conclusion that the death of Europe is inevitable or irreversible. Just like Charles Martel and other leaders rose up and defeated the muslim invaders, there is still a chance that Eastern Europe can produce leaders that will do the same.

I hope......

[johncorey]

The issue now is that the invaders are being invited in. Those governing do not view this as an alien threat. So the mindset is completely different than back when the Ottomans were on the move.

One cannot awaken someone who pretends to be asleep. (Saw that somewhere recently)

[TiroFijo]

It is not just christians vs muslims, it is have vs have-not... who are the vast majority of the planet. See the USA southern border.

The west/europe/allies have become too PC, lazy, coward, and focussed in their own ways and domestic, relatively pity turf wars (political, social, interrnal economic issues, etc.) that "new blood" has got to make inroads, and these societies ARE going to change. The only thing we don't know is how much and how fast.

[Luger]

Totally inferring here, but I do believe Luger was not making the statement in disagreement with your post AS, but more so against duke's.

Correct.

[Luger]

Luger:

Good luck--you guys are going to need it. Not only are you getting 800,000 new "refugees," who will probably turn into at least 1 million, most of whom are paradoxically for refugees, young or younger men, but my guess is that it is going to cost Germany a minimum of 10,000 Euros per "refugee" per year--and most will never be going home.

In other words, the hard-working German taxpayers will be paying at least 8 billion Euros per year to take care of the "refugees" and probably more, all so that your leaders can receive awards for how generous and humanitarian they are.

It is the people of German, however, that will be paying the financial and social cost for this looming disaster--and it appears that nothing can stop it from happening.

If it where "only" 1.000.000 refugees it would not be a big problem. But it is 1.000.000 this year. Next year there will be even more. And so on.

Numbers will increase more and more in the next years. And this will be a real problem.

[TiroFijo]

If it where "only" 1.000.000 refugees it would not be a big problem. But it is 1.000.000 this year. Next year there will be even more. And so on.

Numbers will increase more and more in the next years. And this will be a real problem.

And this is the evident truth most of the euro leaders choose not to see...

[johncorey]

Yup.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/20/europe-migrants-germany-idUSL5N11Q06J20150920

[Drang]

Kerry: US to accept 85,000 refugees in 2016, 100,000 in 2017 - The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/kerry-us-to-accept-85000-refugees-in-2016-100000-in-2017/2015/09/20/bcace55e-5fb1-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html)

Meanwhile, on the drive home from work today, I counted at least three people standing at the side of the road holding up cardboard signs of the "Anything Help$" sort within about a quarter mile.

[johncorey]

Kerry: US to accept 85,000 refugees in 2016, 100,000 in 2017 - The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/kerry-us-to-accept-85000-refugees-in-2016-100000-in-2017/2015/09/20/bcace55e-5fb1-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html)

Meanwhile, on the drive home from work today, I counted at least three people standing at the side of the road holding up cardboard signs of the "Anything Help$" sort within about a quarter mile.

Well, maybe if they actually had a religious and geographical location which our current admin cared about, they too could be living the high life!

I saw man and a woman on the corner the other day. Mid 20s maybe. Total hippies, so not really inclined to stop, but then I saw their dog, and that gets me every time. Got 'em a gift card to the petco around the corner. Hope they got the message I was trying to send.

[TCinVA]

I like how I'm expected to believe that the government which missed Nidal Hassan, the Tsarnayev brothers, the underwear bomber, etc is going to be able to weed out the ISIS types from the poor huddled masses in those hundreds of thousands of "refugees".

We already have more people on welfare than Germany has people. And we're expected to improve the lives of whoever decides to walk across the southern border.

Enough is enough.

[Kyle Reese]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=29&v=SvPt-HT_cAI

[johncorey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=29&v=SvPt-HT_cAI



How dare Western Europeans assume that they won't be able to accommodate, fund, supply and accept those few hundred misfortunate?!

[Tamara]

I like how I'm expected to believe that the government which missed Nidal Hassan...

INS should have pegged his ass when he immigrated from Arlington, Virginia to the USA.

[johncorey]

Cover of the current Der Spiegel has Merkel in Mother Theresa mock up:

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/


Oh, gee, will you look at that:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

[Kyle Reese]

Merkel is staying true to her Ossi roots.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[johncorey]

Merkel is staying true to her Ossi roots.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


HAH! More than one person has suggested she may be the best sleeper ever....

[LostDuke]

As a very recent issue of the Economist pointed out, the history of the world is full of overblown immigration worries, and "the impulse to see migrants as chiefly a burden is profoundly mistaken". If history serves, the various calls for doom and destruction will go down the same old long well beaten path that lamented the arrival of the Irish, of the Italians, of the Jews in this country to name but a few. At least, you get the satisfaction of following a long proud tradition of xenophobic hatred that went nowhere.

Europe is today surrounded by a mayhem it has ignored for years, and dealing with it is not an easy task, I have no illusions about it. But xenophobic visceral responses are not a solution to a major humanitarian crisis. Germany has to share this burden fairly, for sure. Germany has the right to weed out undesirable, and to swiftly punish those who commit crimes. New York was not exactly the poorer for the various and vast waves of immigrants, so often decried for their religion at the time, and neither will Germany.

Let's reconvene here in a few months, in a year, in two. Let's see how the predictions will play out. After all, gas should be $6 per gallon as Gingrich promised should Obama be elected, we should have turned into a Muslim country, and our enemies should have invaded us through the Texan border. More doom, more scares, more blame. The bar is high,

http://i.imgur.com/WvjLrAK.jpg/

let's see how we can do better.

[Tamara]

Let's reconvene here in a few months, in a year, in two. Let's see how the predictions will play out. After all, gas should be $6 per gallon as Gingrich promised should Obama be elected, we should have turned into a Muslim country, and our enemies should have invaded us through the Texan border. More doom, more scares, more blame. The bar is high,

There's nothing like being pandered to by someone who is unaware how poor their grasp of history is relative to the people they think they are snidely belittling.

Immigration never changes anything. Only knuckle-dragging illiterates would think otherwise.

Good Roman lads won't join the legions; let some of those Goths across the river frontiers and we'll use their youth to invigorate our moribund armies. Sitting Cloud and Red Wolf were right to laugh behind their hands at the pale boat people and their weird notions of land-as-property. Those Protestant Scots-Irish hilljacks and English planters and Kraut farmers were idiots to think that eastern and southern European Papists would change the complexion of the nation with their odd communal ideas of class solidarity and state-as-provider.

Not in a few months or a year or two, "looseduke", but I'll meet you here in ten and I'll buy you lunch at the steak joint of your choice if one of the two conditions have not been met:

Germany, France, or the Netherlands have had their first elected Muslim head of state, or
Isolationist parties have taken control in the three states listed above and have effectively created some form of tiered citizenship and/or mass deportations.

[LostDuke]

You know absolutely nothing of my grasp of history, so please back off me personally. We are all making predictions here, yours are in no way better than mine.


In ten years i hope people will know better than to judge an elected official based on his/her religion, but I probably kid myself. I don't care at all as to what invisible friend a person will pray to in some country, I care if that person will respect the laws and the Constitution of that country. Ten years is a long long time to wait for a steak, but a very short one to see history unfold. Fair enough.

[farscott]

I am cautiously optimistic about western Europe and the influx of immigrants. While I am sure, that in the short term (two to three generations as both sides assimilate to the new norm), there will be issues, my expectation is that the immigrants will provide something Europe solely needs, namely enough new blood to get the population to grow. Germany, especially, needs new workers, so the trick is going to be to get the immigrants functioning within the economy. While I am sure that some percentage of the immigrants are "radicalized", the vast majority are looking for a place to live that is not part of a civil war. The minority should be handled by the LE system, and the rest should be encouraged to be part of a productive society.

Within those two to three generations, I do expect some strife as both sides, like everyone, are not going to embrace change. The current Germans like the status quo, and the new immigrants want to keep their customs. How that gets handled will decide whether there are box cars or not.

[TCinVA]

INS should have pegged his ass when he immigrated from Arlington, Virginia to the USA.

No, the various federal agencies who knew he was in communication with terrorists and his coworkers who listened to his jihad-praising rants should have maybe taken some proactive action before he killed a bunch of people.

Point being, if somebody is that Pfucking obvious and nobody catches it until he's stacking bodies then I'm not optimistic that the government is capable of sorting the wheat from the chaff among a bunch of "refugees" about whom much less is known. I have no faith whatsoever that they're going to keep out the next Blind Sheik, Tsarnayevs, or that asshole who shot up the El Al ticket counter.

[Alpha Sierra]

let's see how we can do better.

Put them up in your house

[Jeep]

You know absolutely nothing of my grasp of history, so please back off me personally. We are all making predictions here, yours are in no way better than mine.


In ten years i hope people will know better than to judge an elected official based on his/her religion, but I probably kid myself. I don't care at all as to what invisible friend a person will pray to in some country, I care if that person will respect the laws and the Constitution of that country. Ten years is a long long time to wait for a steak, but a very short one to see history unfold. Fair enough.

looseduke:

The only things that I know about your's and Tam's relative grasps of history come from why you say in your posts. Tam's view that mass immigration can change a country is objectively correct--as she indicates, it has been proven many times in history and very often the results have been unfortunate for the host country.

Do you really doubt that? And do you really doubt that mass immigration into Europe (which has been going on for 50 years now) hasn't been changing the place?

[LostDuke]

looseduke:

The only things that I know about your's and Tam's relative grasps of history come from why you say in your posts. Tam's view that mass immigration can change a country is objectively correct--as she indicates, it has been proven many times in history and very often the results have been unfortunate for the host country.

Do you really doubt that? And do you really doubt that mass immigration into Europe (which has been going on for 50 years now) hasn't been changing the place?

Every country has been changed by immigration, I do not deny obvious facts. My contention is that the current xenophobia against Syrians is also linked to a long and virulent tradition of anti-immigration movements that in our country have in turn affected Irish, Italians, Jews to name a few groups which were also targeted for their religion. Let's not forget the Chinese, the Vietnamese boat people, the blacks...

I maintain that just like these groups, the majority of the Syrian people will by far and large end up benefiting the country that hosts them. As you can see, I also consider historical facts when making my argument. If you disagree, see doom approaching, the merrier for you. Fact is, the rule should be question the argument do not attack the person. Should be.

[LostDuke]

Put them up in your house

I think that the arrival of refugees where I live would certainly present volunteer opportunities, and your comment is fair, I will definitively help within my capabilities. One should try to be coherent after all. Good suggestion.

[Alpha Sierra]

I think that the arrival of refugees where I live would certainly present volunteer opportunities, and your comment is fair, I will definitively help within my capabilities. One should try to be coherent after all. Good suggestion.

Don't forget to post pics of your new guests.....

[LittleLebowski]

Happily, Saudi Arabia is stepping in to help Germany with their influx of immigrants.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/saudi-arabia-offers-germany-200-mosques--one-for-every-100-refugees-who-arrived-last-weekend-10495082.html


Saudi Arabia has reportedly responded to the growing number of people fleeing the Middle East for western Europe – by offering to build 200 mosques in Germany.

Syria’s richer Gulf neighbours have been accused of not doing their fair share in the humanitarian crisis, with Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman and the UAE also keeping their doors firmly shut to asylum-seekers.

According to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, which quoted a report in the Lebanese newspaper Al Diyar, Saudi Arabia would build one mosque for every 100 refugees who entered Germany in extraordinary numbers last weekend.

[LittleLebowski]

You know absolutely nothing of my grasp of history, so please back off me personally. We are all making predictions here, yours are in no way better than mine.


In ten years i hope people will know better than to judge an elected official based on his/her religion, but I probably kid myself. I don't care at all as to what invisible friend a person will pray to in some country, I care if that person will respect the laws and the Constitution of that country. Ten years is a long long time to wait for a steak, but a very short one to see history unfold. Fair enough.

As an atheist, I'll take a Christian that believes in the Constitution over a Muslim that wants Sharia.

[Jeep]

Every country has been changed by immigration, I do not deny obvious facts. My contention is that the current xenophobia against Syrians is also linked to a long and virulent tradition of anti-immigration movements that in our country have in turn affected Irish, Italians, Jews to name a few groups which were also targeted for their religion. Let's not forget the Chinese, the Vietnamese boat people, the blacks...

I maintain that just like these groups, the majority of the Syrian people will by far and large end up benefiting the country that hosts them. As you can see, I also consider historical facts when making my argument. If you disagree, see doom approaching, the merrier for you. Fact is, the rule should be question the argument do not attack the person. Should be.

looseduke:

That's a first step. Now let me ask two more questions. First, do you think that some groups of Syrians might be easier to integrate than others? For example, is it possible that Syrian Christians would be easier to immigrate than Syrian Sunnis? (And if we were to take in Syrian Sunnis, might it be easier to integrate those whose ancestors were forcibly converted from Christianity by the Ottomans in the 19th and early 20th centuries, than those from the various tribes who have been Sunni forever?).

Second, do you think that American taxpayers have a duty to pay for the importation and maintenance of these refugees? If so, where does that duty spring from?

[LostDuke]

As an atheist, I'll take a Christian that believes in the Constitution over a Muslim that wants Sharia.

Am with you 100%. We are protected from all religious material from the Constitution, and we are so much better off for that. Consider though that rephrasing your statement lightly could lead to different results. So I would take a Muslim who has no problems issuing a marriage license to a gay couple over a Christian who does. Mix slightly and repeat ad libitum.

To summarize. Believe what you want, keep it to yourself. If you are right, your invisible friend of choice will sort things out in the end, and you will enjoy the show. If we are right, gives us some room to evolve please.

[LostDuke]

looseduke:

That's a first step. Now let me ask two more questions. First, do you think that some groups of Syrians might be easier to integrate than others? For example, is it possible that Syrian Christians would be easier to immigrate than Syrian Sunnis? (And if we were to take in Syrian Sunnis, might it be easier to integrate those whose ancestors were forcibly converted from Christianity by the Ottomans in the 19th and early 20th centuries, than those from the various tribes who have been Sunni forever?).


Second, do you think that American taxpayers have a duty to pay for the importation and maintenance of these refugees? If so, where does that duty spring from?

Sharing customs, religion, certainly helps so yes I think that integrating Christian Syrians would be easier. As for the second questions, I am not sure as to what legacy people carry in their heart after all that time, I have no direct experience on the matter. Based on the success of some Jewish communities (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwiQjKCVxojIAhVNgA0KHcIGBrU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMarran o&usg=AFQjCNE1UPIfyD6kkbJS0B9Fw4vOr-V-6w&sig2=jw6l5qn0Qm54zaOoGQxLsQ) in rejoining their ancestral religion after centuries, it might be.

As for the taxpayer question, I think that the richest country on Earth can do more to help refugees. The way your question is phrased though is leading because, as you know, we do not get to choose how our tax money is spent, we get to elect the government and they decide.

[LittleLebowski]

As for the taxpayer question, I think that the richest country on Earth can do more to help refugees. The way your question is phrased though is leading because, as you know, we do not get to choose how our tax money is spent, we get to elect the government and they decide.

Have you checked our national debt recently? How about our job growth and the number of people who have give up on looking for employment and are now living off of the dole?

[johncorey]

Silencio with all this reason and logic!

[LittleLebowski]

Am with you 100%. We are protected from all religious material from the Constitution, and we are so much better off for that. Consider though that rephrasing your statement lightly could lead to different results. So I would take a Muslim who has no problems issuing a marriage license to a gay couple over a Christian who does. Mix slightly and repeat ad libitum.

To summarize. Believe what you want, keep it to yourself. If you are right, your invisible friend of choice will sort things out in the end, and you will enjoy the show. If we are right, gives us some room to evolve please.

Is there anyway you can extend your belief of keeping one's thoughts about religion private along with say not going into debt and letting other people foot the note?

A certain saying of Prime Minister Thatcher's comes to mind.....

[Alpha Sierra]

As for the taxpayer question, I think that the richest country on Earth can do more to help refugees.
Let me be more direct. Which Article of the Constitution says it's our duty to squander our resources on helping refugees?

[LostDuke]

Have you checked our national debt recently? How about our job growth and the number of people who have give up on looking for employment and are now living off of the dole?


Is there anyway you can extend your belief of keeping one's thoughts about religion private along with say not going into debt and letting other people foot the note?

A certain saying of Prime Minister Thatcher's comes to mind.....


Let me be more direct. Which Article of the Constitution says it's our duty to squander our resources on helping refugees?

I will answer you both together, as the questions are related. I think mentioning our debt here is a way to cut the conversation. I could use this argument every time I disagree with something, say we can't fund this and that because we are in debt.

You think answering this humanitarian crisis is not a priority, a duty and/or an obligation of the US Government, or at least one we can't afford. I do. I respect your opinion, I do not agree with it but you understand mine and I yours.

My major concern was and is to make sure xenophobia is not part of the conversation, and to point out the prolific tradition of blaming one particular ethnic group for all things evil. You have Tatcher in mind, I had the Know-Nothing Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing). Spending money is the easy part, but I really don't think the pennies this matter will in the end cost are the issue. As I said, I completely respect other opinions, I just don't want to be dragged someplace else.

[Jeep]

We are protected from all religious material from the Constitution. . . . To summarize. Believe what you want, keep it to yourself.

Thankfully, the Constitution doesn't agree with you. Religious believers have every right to express their views in public, just as you have every right to talk about other people's "invisible friend of choice." Indeed, religious views often--and perfectly legally--drive legislation. For example, the reason that murder is a violation of criminal law and not just an issue of "blood money" to a victim's family is the Judeo-Christian prohibition on murder. Most atheists in the US agree with that prohibition--the ones with a sense of history will admit that it came out of the Judeo-Christian ethic even if they can think of other reasons for it as well.

[LostDuke]

Thankfully, the Constitution doesn't agree with you. Religious believers have every right to express their views in public, just as you have every right to talk about other people's "invisible friend of choice." Indeed, religious views often--and perfectly legally--drive legislation. For example, the reason that murder is a violation of criminal law and not just an issue of "blood money" to a victim's family is the Judeo-Christian prohibition on murder. Most atheists in the US agree with that prohibition--the ones with a sense of history will admit that it came out of the Judeo-Christian ethic even if they can think of other reasons for it as well.

Sorry if my first statement created confusion. I totally agree with you, of course people have the right to express their views in public. I was thinking of the refusal to issue marriage licenses and I miswrote. My bad.

[LittleLebowski]

I will answer you both together, as the questions are related. I think mentioning our debt here is a way to cut the conversation. I could use this argument every time I disagree with something, say we can't fund this and that because we are in debt.

You think answering this humanitarian crisis is not a priority, a duty and/or an obligation of the US Government, or at least one we can't afford. I do. I respect your opinion, I do not agree with it but you understand mine and I yours.

My major concern was and is to make sure xenophobia is not part of the conversation, and to point out the prolific tradition of blaming one particular ethnic group for all things evil. You have Tatcher in mind, I had the Know-Nothing Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing). Spending money is the easy part, but I really don't think the pennies this matter will in the end cost are the issue. As I said, I completely respect other opinions, I just don't want to be dragged someplace else.

Xenophobia has nothing to do with distaste for the modern welfare state. A hundred years ago, immigrants came here for the prospect of work. There was no social "safety net" (now a hammock).

Entitlements are literally our biggest budgetary line item in the country's budget. Not military spending, not foreign aid, and most certainly not "pennies." I'm all for legal immigration and do think that the current system needs to be fixed. That doesn't make me xenophobic and I don't think there is a single xenophobic person in this thread.

[LostDuke]

Xenophobia has nothing to do with distaste for the modern welfare state. A hundred years ago, immigrants came here for the prospect of work. There was no social "safety net" (now a hammock).

Entitlements are literally our biggest budgetary line item in the country's budget. Not military spending, not foreign aid, and most certainly not "pennies." I'm all for legal immigration and do think that the current system needs to be fixed. That doesn't make me xenophobic and I don't think there is a single xenophobic person in this thread.

You and I disagree on your last statement then. I am not commenting on persons, but several statements were in my opinion xenophobic. The Syrian crisis and modern welfare state crisis are not the same issue, I was discussing the first certainly not the second.

By the way, I concur on fixing entitlements, welfare, immigration. Vast issues, big discussions. Sometimes.

[johncorey]

Let me recap some facts here, since I've read many misguided assumptions.


-The human waves flooding across the European continent are not immigrants, they are refugees.

-Not one single Western country has any obligation whatsoever to help these refugees.

-The overwhelming majority of these refugees are single MAMs. Not families.

-The overwhelming majority of those seeking refuge are not from Syria, but try to claim so anyways.

-There is absolutely no such thing as a "fair" number to take in. Fair only exists in fairy tales.

-The human flood is leaving behind it a trail of chaos and waste.

-Germany and other Euro nations do not have the space, the infrastructure, the funds or the political capital to even begin to attempt to somehow come out of this crisis for the better.

All the above are open source, cross-available stats which can be self-researched by any person who can access the web. I assume that most who have contributed to this thread have been keeping up on this issue outside of this thread, and come across them on their own.

[johncorey]

Good Roman lads won't join the legions; let some of those Goths across the river frontiers and we'll use their youth to invigorate our moribund armies. Sitting Cloud and Red Wolf were right to laugh behind their hands at the pale boat people and their weird notions of land-as-property. Those Protestant Scots-Irish hilljacks and English planters and Kraut farmers were idiots to think that eastern and southern European Papists would change the complexion of the nation with their odd communal ideas of class solidarity and state-as-provider.

FFWD to 1:55


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orgbJEoA7ak

[Alpha Sierra]

You and I disagree on your last statement then. I am not commenting on persons, but several statements were in my opinion xenophobic. The Syrian crisis and modern welfare state crisis are not the same issue, I was discussing the first certainly not the second.

By the way, I concur on fixing entitlements, welfare, immigration. Vast issues, big discussions. Sometimes.

You didn't answer my question about the enabling document that compels the USG to take in refugees. Just because you think it's a swell idea is not good enough for me.

I will also educate you on the fact that being opposed to housing massive numbers of culturally incompatible refugees, many of which cannot be vouched for in terms of ties to terrorist organizations, is not the same a xenophobia.

There are a good deal of foreigners I'd invite here. Muslim refugees are not among them.

[Alpha Sierra]

I think mentioning our debt here is a way to cut the conversation. I could use this argument every time I disagree with something, say we can't fund this and that because we are in debt.

Is that how you run your personal finances too? Serious question.

[LittleLebowski]

You and I disagree on your last statement then. I am not commenting on persons, but several statements were in my opinion xenophobic. The Syrian crisis and modern welfare state crisis are not the same issue, I was discussing the first certainly not the second.

By the way, I concur on fixing entitlements, welfare, immigration. Vast issues, big discussions. Sometimes.

Accepting 85,000 immigrants to the US next year (http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-us-accept-85-000-refugees-2016-100-160512384.html) seems pertinent to any discussions about budget, no?

[LittleLebowski]

Let me recap some facts here, since I've read many misguided assumptions.


-The human waves flooding across the European continent are not immigrants, they are refugees.

-Not one single Western country has any obligation whatsoever to help these refugees.

-The overwhelming majority of these refugees are single MAMs. Not families.

-The overwhelming majority of those seeking refuge are not from Syria, but try to claim so anyways.

-There is absolutely no such thing as a "fair" number to take in. Fair only exists in fairy tales.

-The human flood is leaving behind it a trail of chaos and waste.

-Germany and other Euro nations do not have the space, the infrastructure, the funds or the political capital to even begin to attempt to somehow come out of this crisis for the better.

All the above are open source, cross-available stats which can be self-researched by any person who can access the web. I assume that most who have contributed to this thread have been keeping up on this issue outside of this thread, and come across them on their own.

Solid post, John.

[johncorey]

Solid post, John.


Thank you, LL.

[Kyle Reese]

Facts and figures are xenophobic.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[johncorey]

Facts and figures are xenophobic.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You'd be wise to harness that tongue, lest the Ministry of Truth gets ahold of you.

[Malamute]

Solid post, John.

Seconded.

[JAD]

Pretty much. Since we're hearing the trope a lot that 'Germany needs new workers' I would point out that what it actually needs is more people (since secularism has gelded the country). Young people. It will get plenty in this wave, many of whom will be down with driving a taxi or bolting plate on a windmill -- but then they will bring their families, and the net will be that for every working person that comes in four pieces of ballast will come aboard as well.

That said I think people as individuals have a /personal/ obligation to care for other people in need, and there's a lot of need bleeding out of the cradle of civilization these days. But I really don't want my government fulfilling my personal obligations for me. I am trying to figure out how best to nut up in this matter, and am currently throwing money at it to make myself feel better.

[LostDuke]

Is that how you run your personal finances too? Serious question.

Me? No. The Government? Yes.

[LostDuke]

You didn't answer my question about the enabling document that compels the USG to take in refugees. Just because you think it's a swell idea is not good enough for me.

I will also educate you on the fact that being opposed to housing massive numbers of culturally incompatible refugees, many of which cannot be vouched for in terms of ties to terrorist organizations, is not the same a xenophobia.

There are a good deal of foreigners I'd invite here. Muslim refugees are not among them.

I appreciate the attempt to educate me, I must be impervious because I don't see how the statement


Muslim refugees are not among them is different from this

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Org4jxFgfcg/Uvb_VGnXNtI/AAAAAAAABgo/XxSkk8W4ch4/s1600/no-irish-need-apply-1915.png

If not chronologically. It's exactly the same old logic. They are different, they prey to a different God, they are therefore unwelcome. That is exactly what xenophobia is.

[LostDuke]

Accepting 85,000 immigrants to the US next year (http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-us-accept-85-000-refugees-2016-100-160512384.html) seems pertinent to any discussions about budget, no?

Yes, absolutely but minimally. I don't know what the exact numbers would be, nobody knows at this point but it's not an easy calculation. Since quoting the Economist would lead nowhere, allow me to pass. After all, am already busy answering a barrage of posts, and neither you nor I can seriously calculate what the costs would be let alone the economic contribution of a given group. I maintain it's small stuff, you maintain it is serious money. Fair enough.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm still waiting to be shown what in the Constitution makes refugee charity a role of the federal government

[Alpha Sierra]

If not chronologically. It's exactly the same old logic. They are different, they prey to a different God, they are therefore unwelcome. That is exactly what xenophobia is.
An atheist lecturing on religion, that's rich

You truly don't know what you don't know

[LostDuke]

An atheist lecturing on religion, that's rich

You truly don't know what you don't know

I find it amusing how the supposed rule against personal attacks is enforced when somebody goes against the grain.


I received a religion education, have read the Bible, am atheist by choice not because I had no access to hotel room drawers.

So, again. Stating that Muslims are not welcome in 2016 is NOT different that singling out Catholics and/or Jews was in the past. It is discriminatory, and xenophobic.

Prove otherwise, instead of attacking me.

[LittleLebowski]

The Romper Room is "lightly moderated."

That doesn't mean you cannot report personal attacks. I don't see AS being out of line here but as I'm participating in this conversation, another mod will review it if there is a post reported.

[Jeep]

They are different, they prey to a different God, they are therefore unwelcome. That is exactly what xenophobia is.

No. Xenophobia means a fear of foreigners generally. If one, for example, fears the Irish but not other foreigners, one isn't a xenophobe, though if "Gaelophobe" is a word it might fit.

If one is in favor of immigration generally but opposed to the immigration of harder-to-integrate populations--which is what is being argued here--then one isn't a xenophobe. I would argue that those of us taking that position are simply using common sense.

In addition, while Moslems are not by any sense homogenous, it is absolutely the truth that many Moslems--and particularly but not exclusively Arabs--have been brought up with a sense of Moslem superiority. Many are taught at an early age that Islam will conquer the world, that Moslems have a right to conquer any place that is not currently Islamic, and that any place where Moslems have formally prayed is rightfully Moslem and should be reconquered. To give you an idea of this, the belief is widespread in the Islamic world that Islam conquered the "Second Rome" (Constantinople/Istanbul) and will also conquer the first (ie: Rome, Italy).

People who believe that are hard to integrate because they tend to believe that they are not only superior to everyone else, but they have the right to dominate all others once they have sufficient numbers. You will find that it is not just the crazed jihadists of ISIS who believe this--it is a widespread view throughout the Moslem world.

That, of course, doesn't meant that all Moslems are like that. We worked with many in Iraq and Afghanistan who don't hold those views and would like the Islamic world to transform peacefully into modern societies. In Syrian, for example, many people of all religions are (or were) fairly secular. But the logic of jihad there has been turning many Sunnis (as well as Alawites, if you count them as Moslems) into extremists.

Which raises a problem. How are we possibly supposed to sort them out? And unless we are successful in sorting them out, we will be importing some jihadis and Americans will die because of it.

These are serious issues. It is not "xenophobia" to take them into account. Rather, it is the type of thing that adults have to do. Unfortunately, we have an administration that prefers to posture and preen on such issues in order to display its exquisite moral sensitivity rather than to deal with such questions in an adult manner. It is one of the reasons why Syria has become such a fiasco.

You might be a fan of this administration, which of course you have every right to be. But just because many of us do not share that view doesn't mean that we are "xenophobes" or any of the other words that modern lefties tend to call their opponents. Rather, I submit that many of the posts here put forward a morally (and legally) serious case against our current policy that has been answered neither here nor in more public discourse.

[42TNred]

I find it amusing how the supposed rule against personal attacks is enforced when somebody goes against the grain.


I received a religion education, have read the Bible, am atheist by choice not because I had no access to hotel room drawers.

So, again. Stating that Muslims are not welcome in 2016 is NOT different that singling out Catholics and/or Jews was in the past. It is discriminatory, and xenophobic.

Prove otherwise, instead of attacking me.

The difference, which is clearly apparent to me, is the Jews and Catholics weren't coming over here to hold Jihad against the infidels.

[LostDuke]

The difference, which is clearly apparent to me, is the Jews and Catholics weren't coming over here to hold Jihad against the infidels.

The difference is that you are ignoring the accusations expressed at the time against Catholics and Jews. The second part of your statement, even if phrased as a statement of fact, is actually an accusation. Proof?

[Alpha Sierra]

The difference is that you are ignoring the accusations expressed at the time against Catholics and Jews. The second part of your statement, even if phrased as a statement of fact, is actually an accusation. Proof?
People like you are how societies commit suicide. You'd fit in well in today's Germany.

[Alpha Sierra]

I find it amusing how the supposed rule against personal attacks is enforced when somebody goes against the grain.


I received a religion education, have read the Bible, am atheist by choice not because I had no access to hotel room drawers.

So, again. Stating that Muslims are not welcome in 2016 is NOT different that singling out Catholics and/or Jews was in the past. It is discriminatory, and xenophobic.

Prove otherwise, instead of attacking me.
I am discriminatory, and I'm proud it. I discriminate between what is beneficial to my society and what is not.

[LostDuke]

People like you are how societies commit suicide. You'd fit in well in today's Germany.

Oh yes, we saw how all those Irish Italian and Jews destroyed the US. Doom is near.

[BaiHu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=29&v=SvPt-HT_cAI
I think they were just a bunch of kids headed to AllahPalooza [emoji41]

Good posts johncorey and Jeep.

Back to lurking/reading this thread.

[Totem Polar]

AllahPalooza!!! LMAOOOOO!


('sniff', wipes tears from corners of eyes...)

Sorry dudes, my mirth is probably in poor taste. Carry on. It really is an important topic and I've been learning by following.

[FNFAN]

We should be more inclusive, like the Aussie's. You know... have consideration for different values and the need for people to continue traditions that are important to them.

http://morningmail.org/australistan/

[LOKNLOD]

, they prey to a different God,

Freudian slip of the week.

[LostDuke]

Freudian slip of the week.

I am not going to correct that, excellent catch. It is indeed.

[nalesq]

Stating that Muslims are not welcome in 2016 is NOT different that singling out Catholics and/or Jews was in the past. It is discriminatory, and xenophobic.

Prove otherwise, instead of attacking me.

Of course it's discriminatory to have some kind of standard for admitting refugees. The question is whether or not that discrimination rationally serves our national interest better than not discriminating at all.

I think what most folks are ultimately saying here is that while admitting that some forms of historic discrimination were not rational, indiscriminate admittance of refugees is not rational either.

And clearly, the world of now and the players involved are different. A Jew is not a Catholic is not a Muslim. The USA and the rest of the world in 1915 is not the same as the USA and the rest of the world in 2015. It's just that you don't think these differences are material, whereas others think that the differences are material enough to warrant different conclusions.

[LittleLebowski]

Oh yes, we saw how all those Irish Italian and Jews destroyed the US. Doom is near.

The point is that they had to work. I just heard on NPR this morning that Detroit is preparing to welcome a large portion of the Arab refugees. Given the wondrous job market in that booming metropolis and our social hammock "safety net," do you not predict vast welfare, Arab centric ghettoes ala France?

[LHS]

The difference is that you are ignoring the accusations expressed at the time against Catholics and Jews. The second part of your statement, even if phrased as a statement of fact, is actually an accusation. Proof?

Boston got proof. New York got proof. Utah got proof.

[voodoo_man]

The point is that they had to work. I just heard on NPR this morning that Detroit is preparing to welcome a large portion of the Arab refugees. Given the wondrous job market in that booming metropolis and our social hammock "safety net," do you not predict vast welfare, Arab centric ghettoes ala France?

That is exactly what Detroit needs.

A whole mess of middle eastern refugees to combat the criminal problem.

[TCinVA]

There are a couple of places in the mid west that took in a lot of Somali refugees...and it hasn't worked out so well.

[Kyle Reese]

There are a couple of places in the mid west that took in a lot of Somali refugees...and it hasn't worked out so well.

Really (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/19/police-arrest-somali-muslim-refugees-for-trying-to-join-isis/)? You don't say.

[LostDuke]

Of course it's discriminatory to have some kind of standard for admitting refugees. The question is whether or not that discrimination rationally serves our national interest better than not discriminating at all.

I think what most folks are ultimately saying here is that while admitting that some forms of historic discrimination were not rational, indiscriminate admittance of refugees is not rational either.

And clearly, the world of now and the players involved are different. A Jew is not a Catholic is not a Muslim. The USA and the rest of the world in 1915 is not the same as the USA and the rest of the world in 2015. It's just that you don't think these differences are material, whereas others think that the differences are material enough to warrant different conclusions.

First of all, thank you for your tone of voice, a welcome reprieve.

As for me, I do not think that differences are immaterial, but I just refuse to look at people and see only their religion. There is a massive humanitarian crisis unfolding. Let's show some goodwill to the world, let the better angels of our nature speak.

Also, I think allowing some refugees in will serve our country well, and I am convinced that just like the previously denigrated waves of immigrants the vast majority of them will contribute to our country way more than they will take away from it.

Some of them will not, some might try to hurt us. The Boston bombing brothers are an excellent example of the possibility of something awful happening, I am fully aware of that. The fact that millions of Muslims live peacefully in the US already is also worth taking into account, or is it not?

An additional consideration on terrorist threats: I believe than an open society protects itself better by building goodwill than pretending it has the ability to stop all bad guys. Even with our great people and magnificent technology, some will slip through. So I don't think that letting people in need in will actually change much at all.

One point I have not made before, but I think it's worth making. We are SO much better at integrating people than Europeans, we are welcoming and embracing as a people and have successfully integrated wave after wave of immigrants from all over. I am much more optimistic when I think U.S. than when I think Germany to be perfectly clear.

As I stated before, the opinions are clear. I think that it will end well, as it has happened before in the history, others think it will end in a manure fest. Time will tell, and I can even look forward to a steak down the line.

[BaiHu]

First of all, thank you for your tone of voice, a welcome reprieve.

As for me, I do not think that differences are immaterial, but I just refuse to look at people and see only their religion. There is a massive humanitarian crisis unfolding. Let's show some goodwill to the world, let the better angels of our nature speak.

Also, I think allowing some refugees in will serve our country well, and I am convinced that just like the previously denigrated waves of immigrants the vast majority of them will contribute to our country way more than they will take away from it.

Some of them will not, some might try to hurt us. The Boston bombing brothers are an excellent example of the possibility of something awful happening, I am fully aware of that. The fact that millions of Muslims live peacefully in the US already is also worth taking into account, or is it not?

An additional consideration on terrorist threats: I believe than an open society protects itself better by building goodwill than pretending it has the ability to stop all bad guys. Even with our great people and magnificent technology, some will slip through. So I don't think that letting people in need in will actually change much at all.

One point I have not made before, but I think it's worth making. We are SO much better at integrating people than Europeans, we are welcoming and embracing as a people and have successfully integrated wave after wave of immigrants from all over. I am much more optimistic when I think U.S. than when I think Germany to be perfectly clear.

As I stated before, the opinions are clear. I think that it will end well, as it has happened before in the history, others think it will end in a manure fest. Time will tell, and I can even look forward to a steak down the line.
I'm going to take a swing here, so bear with me.

If "the fugees" (TF) were all indeed fugees, then this might be an easier sell.

If TF were crossing the border to more culturally similar locales, then this might be an easier sell.

If TF were coming to countries where there was an economic boom and real low unemployment (our 5% or whatever is a fiction), then this might be an easier sell.

But that's not the case. The western world is in economic dire straits and before anyone poo-poos the statement, we, as a nation, are living on low interest credit cards and raising the credit limit to move forward. We, as a nation, already have ~10% of our population that are essentially refugees from South America. So before we go leveraging the farm to accommodate more poor, tired, hungry, destitute people, I think we should feed the livestock, water the crops and pay off the farm first; or at the very least get right side up on the mortgage.

[Jeep]

[QUOTE=looseduke;354523 let the better angels of our nature speak.

[/QUOTE]

The better angels of my nature suggest to me that it would be far better for us to help support the Syrian refugees in the camps in Turkey and Jordan--camps from which they can go home after the war--than bring them here and put other Americans and their children at risk from the inevitable jihadi component.

Even if I thought it was moral for politicians to win humanitarianism awards by putting other people at risk--which I don't; I think it is part of the risible hypocrisy of our media/political culture--I'd have to agree that since the cost of helping refugees in Turkey and Jordan is a fraction of the cost (per refugee) of importing them here and supporting them.

In other words, the way to help the most refugees is to sustain them in the camps, not bring some fraction of them here. From every number I have seen there is no question that is the case by an enormous multiple.

The better angels of our nature would be wise if they used math as well as empathy.

[NEPAKevin]

Saw on the local news that a couple Syrian families were relocating to Scranton and Wilkes-barre. I'm sure once they get settled in and eat some Kielbasa and Pierogies, they will fit right in with the coal crackers.
Syrian Refugees Call NEPA Home (http://wnep.com/2015/09/14/syrian-refugees-call-nepa-home/)

[Alpha Sierra]

We should be more inclusive, like the Aussie's. You know... have consideration for different values and the need for people to continue traditions that are important to them.

http://morningmail.org/australistan/

That'd be one dead muslim real quick around these here parts

[LittleLebowski]

Saw on the local news that a couple Syrian families were relocating to Scranton and Wilkes-barre. I'm sure once they get settled in and eat some Kielbasa and Pierogies, they will fit right in with the coal crackers.
Syrian Refugees Call NEPA Home (http://wnep.com/2015/09/14/syrian-refugees-call-nepa-home/)

Well, now that Obama has destroyed the coal industry, why not turn it into one vast welfare slum?

[Jeep]

Well, now that Obama has destroyed the coal industry, why not turn it into one vast welfare slum?

Now that is a thinking-outside-the-box political idea! PA is a blue state in Presidential elections because of Philly (it's so nice when you can count on several hundred precincts to deliver 99%+ margins before the polls open) but Philly's population is falling, thus endangering an electorally vital state.

Solution? Create a vast new welfare slum that can be guaranteed to vote correctly! It's the Chicago way!

[LostDuke]

The better angels of my nature suggest to me that it would be far better for us to help support the Syrian refugees in the camps in Turkey and Jordan--camps from which they can go home after the war--than bring them here and put other Americans and their children at risk from the inevitable jihadi component.

Even if I thought it was moral for politicians to win humanitarianism awards by putting other people at risk--which I don't; I think it is part of the risible hypocrisy of our media/political culture--I'd have to agree that since the cost of helping refugees in Turkey and Jordan is a fraction of the cost (per refugee) of importing them here and supporting them.


In other words, the way to help the most refugees is to sustain them in the camps, not bring some fraction of them here. From every number I have seen there is no question that is the case by an enormous multiple.

The better angels of our nature would be wise if they used math as well as empathy.

I think what you suggest would be a very smart solution, and would go a long way and would help an ally in dire straits. Jordan has welcomed 600,000 refugees and is basically out of resources. It would also build a lot of goodwill in the region, and with our ally you know the one that does not put teenagers on the cross (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/18/saudi-prisoner-arrested-at-age-17-faces-death-by-c/).

[johncorey]

People like you are how societies commit suicide. You'd fit in well in today's Germany.

*fit in well with some elements of the German government.

[johncorey]

Where to begin...

1: Xenophobia- it is not merely the fear of outsiders or the strange, but the irrational fear of such. Taking into account Muslim occupation history since 622, there is nothing irrational about being utterly against any government taking in any of them.

2: Attempting to label someone as a xenophobe or a racist in hopes of somehow discrediting their ideas/invalidating their view is textbook Alinksy. The hope is that such "harsh" labels will immediately put the person on the defensive, instead of continuing the debate at hand. This forum is not the WH press pool.

3: On to the yet again incredibly false analogy of Irish/Jewish/Catholic/x immigration and the at times hostile environment they faced, being compared to the millions of Muslim refugees spilling out of their point of origin and into the West.

- those early groups of immigrants made the journey to here in search of economic opportunity, never expecting to be handed a single thing. Furthermore, they were immigrants following the official US immigration policy at that time. The policies included quotas, health checks, viability standards, familial considerations, education levels, current status of wealth, religious and cultural backgrounds, and a somewhat generic compatibility estimate. Wether the potential future Americans liked those of not, they played ball since they were trying to join a club which had its own established rules. Once arrived, those immigrants faced further screening and review at Ellis Island, the official and centralized intake area at the time. The USG, as a whole, did not tolerate any deviations from its tried and true guidelines. The semi-isolated location allowed for those immigrants to have been found lacking, or worse fraudulent were kicked back, virtually on the spot. They only saw mainland USA. This very well known factoid went a long ways in ensuring that the immigrants were honest and open on their papers. The last thing they wanted was to screw themselves over so close to their destination. Did fraud still occur? Yeah, of course, humans are involved. Were mistakes made? More than likely. But as a whole, the process was sound, and the clear rules allowed for both sides, the US & its potential future citizens to have very little gray area to dance around. Moreover, the intent of those immigrants was to come here and build a better life for themselves and their family. It was not to come here in order to suck all the resources dry while providing minimal positive input into the system. Also, the flow of immigrants was very, very manageable. The quotas prevented any sort of mass flooding of the system.

- contrast that with what we have been witnessing happen in Eastern and Western Europe, and it is not even remotely close to being considered the same as the legal immigration to the US so many years ago. Those people are not coming to the West for economic opportunity. Rather after 4+ years of war, NOW they decide virtually bum rush the West because of the various success stories of free money, free food, free water, free everything have proven too tempting to resist. Coupled with the temporary camps in the region having run dry of all the free crap. Each US Embassy and Consulate is equipped to deal with and process immigration applications. They follow the same basic guidelines as I laid out above. There still are quotas in place as well. This process is NOT being used by these refugees. They are flooding across the lands, with the end station primarily being Germany. They have no option of using the existing process, because it simply does not apply to them. The US is not looking to add illiterate, undereducated, riddled with drug-resistant respiratory diseases people to our citizen base. Nor should we! That's not who made this nation great. That's not what will carry this nation into the next 300 years.

4: There is no justification nor support in any Western country for taking in any of these refugees. In fact, quite the opposite. Those countries which are accommodating are facing severe and justified backlashes by their citizens. It is utter lunacy to believe that this action will generate any "good will" in any part of the world. The people who are being positively affected by the Western charity give zero iotas of s@#$ about good will. The citizens of those countries providing for the current flood are starting to realize that their respective governments do not hold their best interests at heart, but rather pander to some imaginary global standard of "decency, fairness, humanitarian help". Not a good path to be on.

5: Here's a wacky idea, make the freaking UNHCR fulfill their own charter! They draw in more than enough cash, they get more than enough support, and oh yeah, this is their sole purpose for existing. Hold them accountable for mucking up their camps, their mismanagement of funds, their corruption and their misuse of Angelina. Okay, maybe not the last part.

6: As has been stated prior, performing charity in any form is not a function of our Government. Nor should it be. It is up to the citizen to determine which cause and in which manner his or her time/talent/treasure flow to. May I add there right here in our own communities, actual US citizens are sucking wind. So maybe before we try helping some group of people who cannot be solidly distinguished between ingrate and indebted, we should help one another out.

7: Somewhere in this thread the discussion turned to include the possibility of various Muslim terrorists using this massive flood as a cover to infiltrate the West. Although it is beyond evident that the West will collapse under the sheer weight of these refugees should they go unchecked, the terrorist element certainly adds some spice to the recipe. There are undoubtedly a good number of people mixed among who have a direct connection to Muslim terror against the West or Western interests. The current migration route of these human waves follows the traditional smuggling routes used extensively by criminal and terrorist elements to me from that part of the world, to the West. So yes, the terror aspect is real and tangible.



I probably left out a whole bunch, but there is only so much to type before I am bound to start charging by the syllable!


Open challenge: find one instance of massive Muslim-centric migration of people that ended up being a)non-permanent b)beneficial to the newly inhabited region and c) not disrupting/displacing the existing and established order.

[johncorey]

Trying to load some vids...

[johncorey]

Videos. In case some folks still need visual confirmation IE proof...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDWsZ9mzRBA



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WchMcUr-qd0



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjUNESrh70k