Low hits under stress - need advice

[Burpees & Beer]

Folks, I've been lurking here for just a while, and it's time to ask my first question. I'm trying to improve my skills, and trying to be a bit scientific about it. So, my problem....when I am just target shooting, under no timer or stress, I can get decent hits at 10 yards. I'm pleased with the accuracy and grouping for now. But as soon as I start timing myself, I get a little bit wider group (but still okay for now), but the entire group is 4 to 5 inches low.
I guess I should mention that I am attempting a version of the Bill Drill. If it matters, I am using a single stack 1911 in 9mm.
Please give me your thoughts on what I am doing to cause this and how to correct it.
Here's what it feels like to me, but again give me your thoughts, I think that when I am placing some stress on myself with the timer, I am gripping the gun a but tighter with my strong hand and thereby pulling the muzzle down with the last two fingers of my hand.
I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense! Thanks in advance for any thoughts and advice.

[scw2]

I have this same issue. Maybe a different cause, but same effect. My personal guess is either I'm milking or not gripping hard enough, so that when I press the trigger fast the muzzle dips. If anyone has any idea what we can do to diagnose this it would be helpful. For whatever it's worth, slow fire or one-handed fire isn't really an issue, it's only when I shoot faster. Thanks!

[HCM]

It sounds like what both of y'all have is a trigger control issue which only comes out when shooting faster and or under stress. Milking or "heeling" normally causes rounds to go high rather than low. Normally, as one is squeezing with the pinky they are also squeezing with the heel of the hand and the heel of the hand will force the muzzle up. When you are "trying to go fast "you are simply out running the headlights of the trigger control you've already developed in slow fire.

You do have to push yourself to improve speed, however, you do that by pushing until you out run your headlights and then dialing back some to consolidate your gains before pushing on again.

[GJM]

Per Robbie Leatham, the way to shoot faster is to jerk the trigger faster. However, don't jerk the trigger any faster than you can do that without disturbing the sights commensurate with the difficulty of the shot.

Once you can make shots without a time constraint, better shooting is largely a function of learning how fast you can jerk the trigger for a particular shot.

[Luke]

I always suffered from low shots. Now I suffer from high shots. One day I hope to suffer from center shots.

[EricM]

May be a "timing issue" of recoil anticipation -- you're wanting to shoot fast and you know the gun is going to recoil, so you try to counteract the recoil to bring the muzzle back down ASAP, and you wind up pushing the gun down before the shot has even gone off. You shouldn't need to fight the recoil, adjust your grip if necessary so the front sight naturally comes back down on target. Someone here posted this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dov5sq7wR-U) of Mike Pannone a while back...discussion of follow through and recovery is around 5:45.

[Luke]

That was an excellent video Eric. I suggest anyone who enjoyed the first one to wait till the second one loads and 'auto plays'. It was very informative as well.

[Alpha Sierra]

May I suggest taking a class with Jay Cunningham if you haven't done so already?

I certainly appreciate the effort in diagnosing and fixing one's own problems, but sometimes a second set of eyes are super helpful to speed the process up.

[LittleLebowski]

May I suggest taking a class with Jay Cunningham if you haven't done so already?

I certainly appreciate the effort in diagnosing and fixing one's own problems, but sometimes a second set of eyes are super helpful to speed the process up.

Yup. Having someone who knows how to instruct cannot be overstated. It could just be a shooting buddy or a former SEAL or a guy that just takes instruction seriously.

[JV_]

But as soon as I start timing myself, I get a little bit wider group (but still okay for now), but the entire group is 4 to 5 inches low.

Shoot under a timer more often, get comfortable with it. Shoot with a timer, shoot some matches, and work at shooting drills that someone else controls.

[Guinnessman]

May I suggest taking a class with Jay Cunningham if you haven't done so already?

I certainly appreciate the effort in diagnosing and fixing one's own problems, but sometimes a second set of eyes are super helpful to speed the process up.

This right here. Contact Jay and see if he is still doing one on one instruction. In a couple of hours he will have you headed in the right direction.

[JMS]

Also possible to be morphing toward the target-focused end of the spectrum, which can result in looking OVER your sights; you can still see them, and your brain tells you that you're using/looking through them, but your gun ends up lower than your LOS, and impacts end up consequently lower.

Concur that you need somebody in your face to see what specifically is going on; another set of eyes could pick up your eyes changing focus from sight to target and back, etc. It could be one of or a combo of any of what's been mentioned here.

[HCM]

Professional instruction is the best option but if it's not in the budget at the moment try having someone video you while you are firing. You may see yourself doing things that you don't realize you're doing.

[Peally]

Per Robbie Leatham, the way to shoot faster is to jerk the trigger faster. However, don't jerk the trigger any faster than you can do that without disturbing the sights commensurate with the difficulty of the shot.

Once you can make shots without a time constraint, better shooting is largely a function of learning how fast you can jerk the trigger for a particular shot.

I find this to be quite true. You need to learn when you can burn it down and when you need to take the time to actually line up the sights and not pull the trigger like an angry gorilla. Lots of shooting will teach you how much you can toy with the disaster factor.

[okie john]

Folks, I've been lurking here for just a while, and it's time to ask my first question. I'm trying to improve my skills, and trying to be a bit scientific about it. So, my problem....when I am just target shooting, under no timer or stress, I can get decent hits at 10 yards. I'm pleased with the accuracy and grouping for now. But as soon as I start timing myself, I get a little bit wider group (but still okay for now), but the entire group is 4 to 5 inches low.
I guess I should mention that I am attempting a version of the Bill Drill. If it matters, I am using a single stack 1911 in 9mm.
Please give me your thoughts on what I am doing to cause this and how to correct it.
Here's what it feels like to me, but again give me your thoughts, I think that when I am placing some stress on myself with the timer, I am gripping the gun a but tighter with my strong hand and thereby pulling the muzzle down with the last two fingers of my hand.
I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense! Thanks in advance for any thoughts and advice.

What kind of front sight are you using?


Okie John

[Kimura]

Folks, I've been lurking here for just a while, and it's time to ask my first question. I'm trying to improve my skills, and trying to be a bit scientific about it. So, my problem....when I am just target shooting, under no timer or stress, I can get decent hits at 10 yards. I'm pleased with the accuracy and grouping for now. But as soon as I start timing myself, I get a little bit wider group (but still okay for now), but the entire group is 4 to 5 inches low.
I guess I should mention that I am attempting a version of the Bill Drill. If it matters, I am using a single stack 1911 in 9mm.
Please give me your thoughts on what I am doing to cause this and how to correct it.
Here's what it feels like to me, but again give me your thoughts, I think that when I am placing some stress on myself with the timer, I am gripping the gun a but tighter with my strong hand and thereby pulling the muzzle down with the last two fingers of my hand.
I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense! Thanks in advance for any thoughts and advice.

Do you dry fire? If yes, do you work both with and without a timer? If not, I would start doing that. As the others have said instruction, shooting more with a timer etc. All are good suggestions, but working draw, grip and trigger takes practice and unless you're shooting live rounds everyday I suggest that in addition to the other suggestions you start dry firing immediately.

[Jay Cunningham]

First off, thanks for the couple of shout-outs from several guys, I really do appreciate it.

OP, there's really probably too much going on to give you any kind of simple fix via the forum - that doesn't mean that a simple fix won't do the trick, but diagnosis is really a dynamic activity which requires both the information from the target and the information from the shooter.

I can tell you that the first thing I'd be looking at is your grip. Then I'd be looking at how you manipulate the trigger during "slow fire".

[Burpees & Beer]

Thanks to all of you for the responses and great advice. I knew I came to the right place to ask my question!

Okie John - my front sight is just a plain old steel blade that I have put a dot of orange paint to help with visibility.

Kimura - I do some dryfire at home, but I acknowledge, not enough! Sometimes I will work just drawing and presentation, sometimes I will work the same, but adding the timer.

Now, with the suggestions from all of you and some conscious thought, I think it is possible that my grip may be different when I am 'target' shooting and even dry firing vs. actual live fire with the timer. Not a different hold on the gun, but much more of a gorilla grip when I put myself under that stress. ....and it seems like I ought to pay closer attention to what I'm doing on the trigger as well!
Thanks again for all of your advice. I'm going to try paying a little more attention and making a few changes. I'm sure I'll be back!