Which powder?

[Ptrlcop]

So I have been slowly acquiring all the equipment I need to start reloading and am finally ready to start. My reason for reloading is to be able to be able to shoot higher volume than what I shoot with loaded ammo. I will not be the guy that obsesses over load development. I will be loading primarily 147gr coated lead 9mm to try and match poa/poi to my Winchester RA9T duty ammo. I will also be loading .38 special with 158 SWC coated lead but in much smaller numbers and more for fun than serious shooting.


With all that said I would like to put up a enough powder to get me into mid 2018(In case the wrong person gets elected and we have another run on components). Looking around, the powders I can acquire in the needed quantities are Advantage #5, Ramshot silhouette, Titegroup, and possibly Ramshot zip. I have ruled out Titegroup because I am new at this and it has a very narrow window of loads and I want some forgiveness of minor errors in charge weight. Cost seems to be about the same for the same weights of powder but I'm not sure if I would be burning more of one than the other per charge weight.

[Mitch]

What type of powder measure are you using?

You may want to think twice about ruling out Titegroup. In my experience it flows pretty consistently through my Dillon 550. And if you aren't loading max loads a 1/10th of a grain variance isn't a huge deal.

Of your list, Titegroup is the only powder I have used, but I've had very good experience with it. It's not a terrible idea to get a pound of each and experiment to see what your guns like and what is the easiest to use with your powder measure.

For my own selfish reasons, have you found Titegroup locally or online? Because if you found some online I may buy a bunch of it to get me through the next few years.

[Mike C]

If you are looking for a multi use powder that doesn't require much and will go pretty far per lb Unique is great as long as you don't mind a little soot.

It can be had in 8lbs jugs for reasonable prices and can be used in just about anything from basic shotgun loads to most of the major pistol loads and can get you factory velocities of full power loads or bunny fart loads and little flash.

It is flake and meters well, if you are new to reloading and have a multistage press. It will be easy to see when you have a double charge which might also be a benefit to you. If you decide to go that route let me know and I'll send you some links and some basic info for some clone loads to your carry ammo that I have worked up. If your going to shoot plated bullets as you've stated check out Rocky Mountain Reloading Supply. Their 147gr plated stuff runs about $88 per K delivered which is not bad.


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[BN]

If you don't have a reloading manual, then you should buy one and read all the stuff in it about reloading. Then don't trust any load you get off the internet until you have verified it through reputable sources.

You have picked powders that are fairly far apart in the burning rate chart. If that is Accurate #5, then I loaded that years ago in .45.

I have been loading Titegroup with 147 grain bullets in 9mm for years. A double load will almost fill the case. Not quite, but enough that you can see it.

edit to add link to powder burning rate chart: http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloading/reloadingburningratechart2011.pdf

[JV_]

IME, Titegroup is suboptimal with coated lead bullets because of the excessive smoke.

[JM Campbell]

IME, Titegroup is suboptimal with coated lead bullets because of the excessive smoke.
Unique has this same issue. I use it still because of a 16lbs purchase when powder was tight. Outdoor firing line after a bill drill looks close to a black powder rifle going off. Indoor ranges will probably have an issue with your reloads in this case.

Consider CFE Pistol, I picked some up to see what it will do with coated lead. On Brian Enos forum there is a ton of info on CFE Pistol performance. I have not had the chance to load up with it yet due to other responsibilities.

ETA: I have been reloading 9mm coated lead from a local Texas company.
http://precisionbullets.com/store/

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[JV_]

I also use Precision Bullets, they work pretty well and are priced right. But, that coating does start to collect in my barrels.

[LSP972]

If you are looking for a multi use powder that doesn't require much and will go pretty far per lb Unique is great as long as you don't mind a little soot.



Winchester Super Target (WST) is another powder, almost as versatile as Unique without the soot/smoke. I use it for everything (.45, .40, 9mm) except my bunny fart .38 snubby practice rounds.

Suggest you visit the Brian Enos Forum; the reloading sections are probably the most concentrated, reliable assembly of handgun reloading information on the web. But Bill Nesbitt's advice is still sound; i.e., approach any info so gleaned with caution.

Reloading is not rocket science, and can be very rewarding. It can also get you in a real bind, real quick, if you don't pay attention.

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[5pins]

Of the powders you listed I would go with Tighgroup. But before you pick any powder look around online and see what is available. You are going to find the pickings slim right now.


PS. Graf and Sons has TAC in 8lb jugs in stock for any rifle shooters looking.

[5pins]

I have never used silhouette, but Grafs has it in 4lb jugs. At 4.5 grains with a 147gr bullet that will give you 6222 rounds.

[Hambo]

Winchester Super Target (WST) is another powder, almost as versatile as Unique without the soot/smoke.


WST and TiteGroup are my first pistol choices, but I bought some ETR7 because it was fairly cheap and more importantly, it was available. I'm not married to one powder in 9mm because 4# goes far enough that I don't mind resetting the Dillon if I buy something else the next time. To me, components are more easily stored as assembled ammo so I binge load in quantity and then it might be a year or two before I load that caliber again.

Be careful starting out and load for quality, not quantity. The biggest safety tip I can give is don't get distracted while loading.

[JV_]

The biggest safety tip I can give is don't get distracted while loading.Exactly.

And, when you get a jam, clean out all of the stages and start fresh, watching each stage as it gets going again.

[okie john]

So I have been slowly acquiring all the equipment I need to start reloading and am finally ready to start. My reason for reloading is to be able to be able to shoot higher volume than what I shoot with loaded ammo. I will not be the guy that obsesses over load development. I will be loading primarily 147gr coated lead 9mm to try and match poa/poi to my Winchester RA9T duty ammo. I will also be loading .38 special with 158 SWC coated lead but in much smaller numbers and more for fun than serious shooting.

With all that said I would like to put up a enough powder to get me into mid 2018(In case the wrong person gets elected and we have another run on components). Looking around, the powders I can acquire in the needed quantities are Advantage #5, Ramshot silhouette, Titegroup, and possibly Ramshot zip. I have ruled out Titegroup because I am new at this and it has a very narrow window of loads and I want some forgiveness of minor errors in charge weight. Cost seems to be about the same for the same weights of powder but I'm not sure if I would be burning more of one than the other per charge weight.

If you just want the gun to go bang, then buy any powder that has published loads for your caliber. If you need to match POI of a specific load, then you'll have to do some load development. Each gun is a law unto itself, so you'll have to repeat at least some of the process for each one.

So you'll definitely want to do your load development before you buy powder in bulk, otherwise you could end up with a very expensive pile of stuff that doesn't work. Been there, done that, you don't have to.

Bullseye and Unique are time-honored choices for the 38 Special and a bunch of other stuff, plus they work pretty well in 9mm, so if you insist on buying something NOW, then I'd start with them.


Okie John

[olstyn]

Lots of good advice here. Reloading is not difficult, per se, but it is definitely something that requires a detail-oriented person to do properly, especially given the consequences of doing it improperly.

Regarding the powders mentioned in this thread, I've used Unique and CFE Pistol to load 9mm (115 gr and 124 gr, round nose and jhp), and they both seem to work pretty well, although the CFE Pistol was a bit more consistent, probably due to the fact that it meters better. In the end, however, I settled on using VV N320; it meters just as well as CFE pistol, has lower charge weights (more rounds per pound), shoots softer, and gives more consistent velocities, at least in my experience. Unique is fine, but as others have said, it's a bit sooty, and it fills 9mm cases full enough that tossing some onto your shell plate and/or your bench every time the shell plate advances is a real possibility. I never realized how dirty it was until I started using N320. Unique will turn your hands black when you're shooting, N320, not so much.

As far as acquiring powder for 9mm/.40/.45 goes, Powder Valley (http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/) has N320 in stock in 4 pound jugs at the moment, so that'd be my recommendation. If you buy at least 8 pounds and throw in some primers while you're at it, the hazmat fee gets diluted enough to be worth it.

[Blayglock]

IME, Titegroup is suboptimal with coated lead bullets because of the excessive smoke.

Same Here.

[LSP972]

I binge load in quantity and then it might be a year or two before I load that caliber again.



I used to do that; until those two heathens disguised as my grandsons got old enough to start shooting. Then the wife decides she wants to start shooting .40- the fault of which can be laid squarely at Tom Givens' feet-, so I had tool up for it. I'm being punished for something over that; just don't know what (not a bad caliber to load; just ANOTHER one).

And now, of course, grandson #1 has begun shooting .45 instead of Euro-Pellet. Yet another Precision Delta bullet order is in my immediate future.

It never ends. But my local loading shop has been getting WST pretty regular, so I've been stocking up. One pound cans only, though… but its better than nothing.

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[LSP972]

I never realized how dirty it was until I started using N320. Unique will turn your hands black when you're shooting, N320, not so much.



Indeed. But you gotta mortgage your children to buy VV powder in quantity; at least, around here you do.

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[olstyn]

Indeed. But you gotta mortgage your children to buy VV powder in quantity; at least, around here you do.

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The price was a bit of an eye-opener for me when I ordered 8 pounds of it this summer, but I figure it'll last me quite a while, and even with the hazmat shipping, it was way cheaper per pound getting it from PV than buying it locally. The one pounder I bought locally to try it out was about $38 after tax; IIRC the math worked out to more like $30/pound once I spread the hazmat fee out between a pair of 4 pounders of N320 and a few thousand small pistol primers. Still not as cheap as Unique, of course, but it shoots nicer, loads nicer, and I get more loads per pound, so when I had the opportunity, I jumped on it.

[Hambo]

I used to do that; until those two heathens disguised as my grandsons got old enough to start shooting. Then the wife decides she wants to start shooting .40- the fault of which can be laid squarely at Tom Givens' feet-, so I had tool up for it. I'm being punished for something over that; just don't know what (not a bad caliber to load; just ANOTHER one).

I started trying to keep ammo loaded as an organization/storage OCD thing. I even loaded all the .338 Win Mag brass I had in the shop, which is probably enough for two lifetimes unless the zombie elk apocalypse happens soon.

[LSP972]

Yeah, but when "they" start shooting the stuff up faster than you can load it…;)

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[olstyn]

Yeah, but when "they" start shooting the stuff up faster than you can load it…;)

.

Then you tell "them" that they can help load (and help buy components). :)

[LSP972]

Then you tell "them" that they can help load (and help buy components). :)

Its not the money; that we got. Its the time to crank the stuff out.

And do you REALLY want someone else loading for you? This isn't making the kid mow the yard to your satisfaction; if I were to install one of them behind the Dillon, I would watch them like a hawk every step of the way. Might as well do it myself.

Regarding the VV powder, no doubt it is the cleanest-burning powder available to reloaders. But according to my local loading supply shop guy, who is an old friend and won't bullshit me, VV powder is difficult to come by and priced accordingly by his suppliers. I bought a pound of N320 last month from him for $41.95 before taxes; yikes. WST is about halfway between N320 and, say, Unique on the get-your-gun-dirty scale. I can live with that; solvent and patches are still reasonably priced.

I was wondering why nobody has mentioned 231 yet; then realized that, due to its immense popularity, its probably more difficult to find than anything.

OP, sorry for the thread drift. Its just that your mentioned powders are not exactly in main stream use by pistol reloaders. As previous mentioned, Powder Valley usually has what you want, and while you'll get penetrated by the haz-mat fee, it won't be a full blown rape. I should take my own advice and bulk order from PV, but I simply never think about, as I go to my local "powder store" rather frequently. Local sales taxes or haz-mat fees, "they" will get you coming or going… sometimes both.;)

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[olstyn]

Its not the money; that we got. Its the time to crank the stuff out.

And do you REALLY want someone else loading for you? This isn't making the kid mow the yard to your satisfaction; if I were to install one of them behind the Dillon, I would watch them like a hawk every step of the way. Might as well do it myself.

That depends on what I know their level of attention to detail to be. My wife? Sure, she'd be good to go once I showed her how it works and pointed out a few "gotchas" to her. I know she'd turn out high quality ammo and would have no qualms expecting it to be accurate and make power factor at a major match. A random stranger? Hell no, I'd be worried about my safety. Obviously you know far better than anyone else what level of trust you should have for your grandsons' abilities to get it right, and I wouldn't even think about questioning your judgement in that. :)

[HCM]

Yeah, but when "they" start shooting the stuff up faster than you can load it…;)

.

Have you taught the grandsons how to load? Sounds like an untapped free labor force. ;)

[Ptrlcop]

OP, sorry for the thread drift. Its just that your mentioned powders are not exactly in main stream use by pistol reloaders.

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Totally understand. Believe me, I read a million "favorite pistol powder" or "best 9mm powder" threads on a ton of sites. The problem was that when I went looking for the ones people were talking about I couldn't find them.

My list was simply three powders that could work that I saw available at more than one place which made me think they were easier to come by.

[LSP552]

I was wondering why nobody has mentioned 231 yet; then realized that, due to its immense popularity, its probably more difficult to find than anything

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Win 231 (and HP38, which is the same powder) lives in my Dillon 9mm setup.

[BN]

At the 2015 IDPA Indoor Nationals they published a survey on equipment used. The most used powder by a very large margin was Titegroup. 36 people said they used Titegroup and the next closest powder was VV N320 with 6, with a scattering of many other powders.

I am loading Bayou coated bullets with Titegroup. There is a little smoke, but I don't notice it when I'm shooting. Almost all of my shooting is outdoors, but this was the Indoor Nationals with some low light stages where so many used Titegroup.

[dsa]

http://www.expansion-industries.com/ETR7-PISTOL-POWDER-p/etr7-1lb.htm

I use this stuff because I can get, as much as I want, whenever I want it. Availability has become my golden standard; I shoot Hi-Tek coated bullets in 9 and 45 ETR-7 works very well in both of them.

[LSP972]

Have you taught the grandsons how to load?

Nope. Various reasons for that, but it ain't happening.

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[LSP972]

I am loading Bayou coated bullets with Titegroup.

I tried Titegroup once, was not impressed. It seemed to burn extra "hot", so I shot a couple into the water tank. Sure enough, the bases were partially flowed… as in starting to melt. These were Bayou Bullets.

PM inbound.

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[HCM]

Nope. Various reasons for that, but it ain't happening.

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Too bad. My dad and uncle were both into shooting but I was the one who started reloading as a teenager. Initially with a lee loader and then a MEC shot shell loader. I eventally got a single stage and.Dillon 550, both of which disappeared after the old man passed away . Still pissed off about that.

[5pins]

At the 2015 IDPA Indoor Nationals they published a survey on equipment used. The most used powder by a very large margin was Titegroup. 36 people said they used Titegroup and the next closest powder was VV N320 with 6, with a scattering of many other powders.


Some of that may be due to availability. I have been able to score titegroup more than a few times this past year. I haven’t seen any N320 until just a few days ago.

[Alpha Sierra]

Anyone ever try CFE Pistol?

[rsa-otc]

I tried Titegroup once, was not impressed. It seemed to burn extra "hot", so I shot a couple into the water tank. Sure enough, the bases were partially flowed… as in starting to melt. These were Bayou Bullets.

PM inbound.

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I avoided Titegroup for a long time for this very reason. We had a reloader make up some training rounds at the start of the ammo shortage. When I was running my guys through some rapid paced drills they ended up playing hot potato with their revolvers they ended up so hot.

Unfortunately during the great powder shortage all I could find was Titegroup. I ended up with reloads that exhibited some spectacularly low standard deviations. Unfortunately they did not exhibit the corresponding accuracy with coated bullets. If the bases are flowing that's probably the reason why. Also I have experienced a leading issue from time to time. Something I never experienced with my preferred powder Clays. Most people shooting IDPA wouldn't notice the accuracy issues with coated bullets at your usual IDPA distances but anyone trying to shoot for accuracy at distance will probably be met with frustration.

Recently was able to score 8lbs of Bullseye which was my longtime favorite before being turned onto Clays. I will be saving the remainder of my Titegroup for when I load jacketed or plated bullets.

[rsa-otc]

Yeah, but when "they" start shooting the stuff up faster than you can load it…;)

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When they were younger my kids would shoot on the same line as my employees. Which everyone loved. Ken was cleaning the state classifier by the time he was 14. Only one problem, when it was time for good old dad to shoot, I would go back to the ammo boxes and find them empty with no ammo for me. When they got old enough to earn a decent allowance I started charging them for the cost of the components to reload the ammo they shot. After that there was ammo for dad. ��

[LSP972]

When they got old enough to earn a decent allowance I started charging them for the cost of the components to reload the ammo they shot. After that there was ammo for dad. ��

Now there's a tactic I didn't think of. The way I've been dealing with it is to simply put a number on them ("You can shoot 150 rounds this time") and only bring that much for their pistol.

.

[olstyn]

Anyone ever try CFE Pistol?

Yeah, works fine, meters well, etc, but the charge weights and felt recoil are both a bit higher than N320/Titegroup/etc. With 124 grain Montana Gold JHPs, it took 5.0 grains of CFE Pistol to make 128.5 PF out of my P99c vs 4.2 of N320 or 4.7 of Unique. Standard deviation was almost, but not quite, as good as N320, and much better than Unique. Apparently some people are having success loading 9mm up to major power factor for Open with it, too.

[41magfan]

I've never used it, but Ramshot ZIP has a burn rate comfortably in the range (between 231 and Unique) we associate with general purpose pistol cartridges with case capacities similar to the 9mm.

However, a quick check with a single manual seems to indicate Accurate #5 (I'll assume Advantage #5 was a misprint) will give you slightly better performance with heavy 9mm bullets and will work reasonably well in the .357 cartridge, too.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't let the current component crisis dictate completely what I purchased unless I had no other option. Be patient and buy what you need/want.

[LSP972]

Personally speaking, I wouldn't let the current component crisis dictate completely what I purchased unless I had no other option. Be patient and buy what you need/want.

This. You've got time before the next panic (unless some tard shoots up another school). But I wouldn't dither around with it, either.

.

[Alpha Sierra]

Yeah, works fine, meters well, etc, but the charge weights and felt recoil are both a bit higher than N320/Titegroup/etc. With 124 grain Montana Gold JHPs, it took 5.0 grains of CFE Pistol to make 128.5 PF out of my P99c vs 4.2 of N320 or 4.7 of Unique. Standard deviation was almost, but not quite, as good as N320, and much better than Unique. Apparently some people are having success loading 9mm up to major power factor for Open with it, too.

Thanks. I'm not concerned about the charge weight, as I currently load 5.3 of Power Pistol under a 125 gr SNS coated cast RN to make 130+ PF

Sounds like it will work just fine, so I ordered a 8 lb jug. The price was right at Powder Valley

[Blayglock]

Anyone ever try CFE Pistol?
See my thread in this subforum.

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