HK VP9 1,000 Round Range Report: Pour yourself a mug, let’s have a talk.

[Patrin]

“Death Ray”, “mini-rifle”, “best handgun made” (ever?)…are a few of the descriptives I’ve read about the VP9 over the past year from other shooters reviewing this new striker gun from HK.

Are they right?

Before I answer that question(s) from my perspective, I invite you take a literary walk with me back 17 years into my handgun shooting experience. Through the years, I’ve lent my ear to many, read aplenty, and have experience of my own…all have melted to form my individual experience and opinion on handgun shooting. I offer mine to toss into the melting pot to help another arrive…and maybe save some money or time…both always in short supply.

Further, I think it compliments the review, and why I am shooting this pistol today, after these many years....you'll note I'm opinionated and if you disagree, no problem, share it or not, I understand we arrive at different places for different reasons.

A Glock 22 was my first foray into serious handgun shooting.

40 S&W being the new thing, relatively, more oomph than the 9, increased capacity over the .45. I didn’t like the Glock 22. Not even a little bit. A lot of recoil, weird grip angle and, I thought, inaccurate. We had to down load the magazine one round, as full magazines wouldn’t seat.

Time revealed that my instruction was poor and would have mitigated most of the negatives I found with the gun.

Time and good instruction has not changed my opinion on Glock .40 recoil…harsh.

My next platform was the SIG P-Series, a P228 9mm.

Normal grip angle (hate, hate, hate), lower recoil and accurate. My instruction had marginally improved and I shot the gun fairly well, though DA remained a difficulty for me. Low left type errors. I distinctly remember the quality of that particular specimen. Made in Germany markings, the attention to detail was, coming from a Glock, extraordinary. Knowing what I know now about SIG, the 1990’s was when SIG was producing their best handguns in any P-Series flavor. Build quality (inside and out), attention to detail, and the guns showed a certain careful consideration of design. Made in Germany most def.

Time went on and a change in life was made and I was issued my first HK, a P2000 in .40.

A great gun, well made, same attention to detail in its manufacture as the German P228. Accurate, reliable, LEM trigger fair, but I never mastered it (only qualified marksman on the FLETC PPC). The duty load, if I recall accurately, was the Speer Gold Dot 155 grain…very hot, stout recoil, alas more manageable than the Glock 22 of previous mention.

At this point in time, my skill in shooting had progressed over the years. I knew the concept of front sight focus, having a good trigger pull to not disturb the sights, drawing from my holster and executing a decent press-out. My grip was still inadequate and the aforementioned still needed refinement, but I was on my way.

Another change in agency and the P229 .357 SIG became the new standard.

Still, SIG quality is mostly excellent in the P-Series line and my P229 exemplified this. All the attributes of the German P228 were there, IOW, solid build quality. The P229 in 357SIG is not really a handgun…it is a true mini-rifle. From 1.5 to 50 yards, one only need keep the same sight picture. The .357 SIG shoots very, very flat. We never shot past 50, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you could go to 100 yards with the same sight picture (elevation). I like the round. Stout, but very manageable recoil in the P229 platform, extreme accuracy and, if cost wasn’t a factor, it would be the only round I carry. Over the course of my time with the gun, I put nearly 50K through it, and I had one malfunction at 13K. The recoil spring end had caught itself inside the hole / hollow portion of the guide rod. This occurred because the recoil spring had not been changed at its regular interval and had become very short. A fresh recoil spring and she was purring again.

The instruction I received on running the P229 was world class. The refinement I needed in my technique was buttoned up nicely. Thumbs forward (no more thumb over thumb), front sight focus, smooth trigger, reset and prep, proper follow through / sight picture were drilled into us students.

Copious amounts of dry-fire, plenty of live fire and simunitions. I know it’s a point of contention with some well-known instructors whether dry-fire is worth the time, but I am convinced that it is a mandatory part of a shooter’s regimen. Dry-fire allowed me to run the DA/SA to its peek performance (and a lot of free ammo). It allowed me to qualify expert every quarterly qualification.

A few years ago I left that agency (FAMS).

The duty had taken its toll and I suffered some health problems. Still suffer, but to a much lesser extent. Gone were the days of giving notice with a training instructor and walking out of the ammo vault with 500+ rounds of Speer Gold Dot. I think back on it now and I could have paid my rent selling the ammo on the side. I was more interested in matching my better peers and shot frequently instead.

Now, I’m going to make some further remarks on the DA/SA platform, and it is going to dovetail into the HK VP9 report.

It’s going to pit DA/SA against striker fired somewhat, where feeling on the two can be vigorous.

Shortly after separating, I attended a 3-day Advanced Pistol Training Course hosted by Bruce Gray. I was still at my peak with DA/SA. Attending this particular course were some accomplished shooters; local LE, FED LE, civilians and one Politician. One well known shooter to this forum (I think), and unbeknownst to me at the time, was Mr. Hilton Yam.

I post this picture not to brag, but to qualify my statements on DA/SA and to prove that I had attained a good level of skill with the DA/SA action. This picture represents a drill Mr. Gray had the advanced students perform at the end of the third day. It involved splitting a playing card in half, edge wise, from seven yards, timed. A student could choose to do it from the high-ready or from the holster. I chose to do it from my leather thumb break holster and, on the draw, in DA, split the card in half in 1.5 seconds timed:

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/Cards_zpsbwiepj6d.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/Cards_zpsbwiepj6d.jpg.html)
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/Card%20Split_zpsxpzzhckt.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/Card%20Split_zpsxpzzhckt.jpg.html)

(I had Mr. Gray sign the card (in upper right corner) for authenticity, figured I might get a lot of BS calls).

I have found that since my separation, my DA accuracy has slipped at distance. It took around two years for this to develop. 0-15 solid, 25-35 yards, and I’m throwing DA shots just a hair over the right shoulder. Not all mind you, but enough to count. This occurs, in my sessions, consistently enough to frustrate me in the extreme. I know it is trigger control…you know it is trigger control. I dry fire three times a week, and I a practice every 7 to 10 days. I used to shoot 10-15K a year as a FED LE, but now, as a civilian, with a matching ammo budget, I am now relegated to 5-7K a year.

It is what it is.

I’ve read other shooters lament on various forums, over the years, and even a few previous Glock shooters in the FAMS, that the DA/SA takes to much practice to master or to stay competent with. I used to think these shooters were not dedicating their time to it or were venting at the tool rather than their poor fundamentals.

The DA/SA will highlight that in a hurry.

There comes a point in this shooting journey where you’ve acquired enough skill and fundamentals work that you should know the game. Plenty of money has been spent on me to shoot well and, at a certain skill point, shooting a handgun accurately through a basic skill spectrum (PPC) really shouldn’t be that hard.

Sure, all of us, civilian, LE or competition / instructor, still make our mistakes and have to harden up on the basics. Gremlin or not, I am convinced that my diminishing skill in DA/SA had to do with fewer rounds to run on it over time, and I’m not interested in devoting more rounds to stay on top of it.

I’ve also grown tired of carrying a fully loaded, high-capacity, metal gun…in Florida heat.

The striker experiment began and started off badly:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16613-2015-Glock-19-GEN-4-Handguns-still-unreliable-have-design-flaws

After that debacle, I took member SLG’s advice in that thread to heart, that I should stick with the SIG and what I know. After all, I had become a SIG Armorer and knew the system inside and out. It takes time to know a platform well. Stay with it; stay comfortable, only I wasn’t.

I dump the Glocks…and shortly afterward…have a frustrating day with my trainer P229 9mm. More distance trouble. On impulse, I say screw it, walk into my LGS and purchase an HK VP9 and take my a** right back to the range with 300 rounds.

I shoot the FAM PPC that I practice regularly, and shoot a perfect 300 expert score, first 60 rounds with the VP9... all within times and using simulated barricades. I’ve never shot a perfect score with the SIG:

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/HK2_zpse1ww4gze.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/HK2_zpse1ww4gze.jpg.html)

It’s a clue that my gut feeling was right. My fundamentals were, mostly, solid. Yes, I had a Gremlin in my DA and I tried to beat that Gremlin, I really did, but I’m tired of messing with it.

Again, as I said, after enough skill has been acquired, hundreds of hours on the range, the BS needs to hit the road.

We all need to be honest with ourselves sometimes…what are we trying to achieve and what is the best way or tool to achieve it?

This is where I’ve arrived after 17 years of handgun shooting, after much advice and training from wonderful instructors and the privilege to work with some outstanding men and women.

The HK VP9 Range Report:

The first thing I picked up upon right away was the attention to detail, the build quality and the ergonomics. Holy hell kittens, the handle is what Gaston tried to do, but did it a** backwards (hate, hate, hate). HK did it. I had never handled a P30 previously, where I guess this style grip got started, but man did HK get it right! I went with small panels all around and a rubber sleeve.

Nowadays, as it lamented here on this forum and elsewhere, handgun manufacturers are cutting quality corners; SIG, Glock, S&W. It’s sad and uncalled for in the age of CNC, but it’s where we are. All my SIGs are 90’s, early 2000’s, and there is a reason for that; build quality. Mr. Cohen has made SIG profitable and I commend him for that, but he’s altered the P-Series recipe when he didn’t have too. If it’s not a carbon slide model or it doesn’t have a short extractor, I won’t touch it. Too much time has proven those designs and I’m not interested in outsourced MIM from India or new unproven extractors. Glock and S&W suffer from the same

Up front, it’s obvious, HK does not compromise. She is well-made…and she shoots as good as she looks.

Pros:

-Attention to detail
-Build quality – high
-Zeroed in from factory, shoots POA-POI at 25 yards
-Mild recoil
-Laser accurate
-The finest ergonomics (IMO)
-Best striker trigger I’ve felt
-No BTF
-Reliable
-The size is right

I’ll elaborate on a few of those pro’s….I’ve shot the PPQ, the Glock 22 and 19, the M&P and finger banged the P320. I like the Glock and HK striker trigger the best, the S&W the least, the P320 I would like after some work, and the PPQ for range only. Coming from a 10lb DA and 4.5 SA, I like to think I have a well-tuned trigger finger. Predictability is a necessary asset in a carry platform. Both the Glock factory 5.5 and the HK striker deliver this. Both have a definitive wall that you won’t run through on presentation and a predictable break; the HK having the cleaner break over the Glock.

The 3.5 connector on the Glock I found too light and did not provide a sufficient wall…for a finger accustomed to a 10lb first shot pull.

The S&W is not worthy of mention, its reset being awful. The PPQ has a clean break, but too light of a wall and no way to change that. I also thought the PPQ build quality, both polymer and steel, seemed inferior to the HK. Just an opinion, but it’s mine.

Recoil has been mild overall; slightly sharper with NATO and HP. Front sight tracks fast and the gun can be run quickly. Excellent trigger and reset. Perhaps the most predictable trigger I’ve ever shot. The ergonomic grip is a pleasure to hold. All attributes translating to excellent accuracy…yes…the VP9 is a “mini-rifle”. It’s too easy to shoot well.

Ammo I’ve run through her for the first thousand: Aguila 124 and 115, Winchester 124 NATO, Speer Gold Dot 115, Federal 115 HP 9BLE and Freedom Munitions 115. All ammo has run flawlessly save for the FM 115…this load is weak and caused intermittent FTE’s. Come to find out, the out of the box VP9 does not like weak ammo and I ran the FM after 200 rounds of Aguila 124 and 115 (which ran fine). 700 rounds down the pipe since the FM, and the gun has run like a top. So, not an HK issue, but an ammo one. The lesson is no weak ammo in the beginning.

No ‘BTF’ whatsoever.

All magazines seat easily and firmly when fully loaded and reloads, under time, are smooth and almost effortless. Using the trigger finger for the magazine release is different, but intuitive. The gun handles.

A big pro worth mentioning is that HK takes the time to sight their guns in from the factory. I purchased the HK LE model with night sights. I can take or leave night sights, but when a gun comes factory zeroed, I save the money and work and go with night sights. The VP9 has a generous sight radius and I have no trouble focusing on the front sight, it is clear.

We should not underestimate the value of this service. On my SIG’s, every single one, and the most recent Glocks, I had to purchase a sight tool and hassle to re-zero. Time and money wasted on something that should have been done from the factory…period:

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/HK1_zpssqjhynhk.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/HK1_zpssqjhynhk.jpg.html)

When you factor in the cost of new sights, sight tool…let alone an APEX extractor…the VP9 LE at 625$ is the best value in striker fired guns.

Lastly, on the size of the gun, it’s bigger than a Glock 19 (no doubt), but smaller than a Glock 17. It is nearly the same size as my carry P229, albeit a half pound lighter and I don’t mind the size because she shoots so darn good:

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/HK3_zpscnwoeglz.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/HK3_zpscnwoeglz.jpg.html)
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/HK4_zpsfxxqvlqi.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/HK4_zpsfxxqvlqi.jpg.html)
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/HK5_zpsukdrrkgj.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/HK5_zpsukdrrkgj.jpg.html)

There is no con list, as the FM FTE’s were it and not the guns fault.

Thank you, HK…and in my gratitude for the attention to detail so lacking in the industry and for the time spent to make this pistol right, and ready to run out of the box, I bestow the best compliment I can on a manufacturer …I purchased a second one in .40….which has mild recoil as well, just a wee-bit stouter than the 9mm.

Concluding this range report, gents, I hope my experience has been of aid to at least one of you. In choosing a new handgun to purchase, and the fact that money doesn’t grow on trees, I think it behooves all of us to support a company that delivers what all of us want; everything I have already listed.

I am now converted to striker and will stay there, so long as the HK continues to run as it has. I will sell a few SIGs and buy another VP 9mm. I hear HK needs some $ help, so whatever I can do to help the company to continue to deliver the high quality product I received is the least I can do.

I’m shooting to my high standard again and, most importantly, enjoying shooting.

Patrin.

[warpedcamshaft]

You have won the "warpedcamshaft's longest forum post I've actually read in one sitting so far" award... It's prestigious.

This was an enjoyable read for me... thanks for posting it.

Also... is that a bicycle inner-tube wrapped around the grips of the pistols in the photos? I also spotted a CSAT target and Leopold optics boxes... which likely indicate you are a classy individual.

[RJ]

Thanks for a very informative and educational read. I appreciate the effort that went into it.

As a noob, I also really like my VP9.

Rich

[Dagga Boy]

Great post. I just finished an article on living with a VP9 daily for the last year. Experience mirrors much of yours...except I don't shoot as well, but my partner is able to milk the accuracy potential out of them.

[rauchman]

Excellent read. Thank you! Thanks your service too.

The VP9 is the one pistol that I haven't tried of the newer offerings that interests me. Reports like this make my wallet nervous.

[JodyH]

I approve of this message... except for buying anything in .40, that I disapprove of.

[Symmetry]

A very well written post as a whole. Let us know how the .40 holds up. A excellent performing cartridge, given that the platform is durable enough to handle it and user friendly enough to help the shooter's scores.

[CDFIII]

A very informative review. Thank you sir! Looking forward to any future updates. Also nyeti... where and when is your article coming out?

[GJM]

An excellent read. I read it last night but wanted to sleep on it before commenting.

I agree with everything you have written except the conclusion. I think you are evaluating the VP9 like a game gun and not as a defensive gun. For a game gun, my priorities are how easy it is to shoot other stuff. For a defensive gun, my priorities are not shooting myself, not shooting something I don't intend to, and then how easy is it to shoot something you do intend to shoot.

What makes the VP9 easy to shoot other stuff, the short, light trigger, makes it easier to shoot yourself and things you don't intend to shoot. Your testing is pure shooting, and does not account for the not shooting yourself or others unintentionally part.

At the risk of having become Darryl, I think short, light striker triggers are overrated on a carry gun, regardless of how they perform on pure shooting tests. I do love pistols with short, light triggers to game, and think the VP9 and 320 are great additions to the striker world.

[SiGFever]

Fantastic report sir, very interesting and it kept my interest through every line. When HK comes out with either a VP9c or VP9sk I will have one. My USPc .40 is the smoothest shooting .40 that I have shot, much smoother than my previous P229R DAK .40 or my P239 .40. Thank you again for such a great thread!

[YVK]

Interesting read, even for somebody like me who is not interested in the VP9.

[Dagga Boy]

An excellent read. I read it last night but wanted to sleep on it before commenting.

I agree with everything you have written except the conclusion. I think you are evaluating the VP9 like a game gun and not as a defensive gun. For a game gun, my priorities are how easy it is to shoot other stuff. For a defensive gun, my priorities are not shooting myself, not shooting something I don't intend to, and then how easy is it to shoot something you do intend to shoot.

What makes the VP9 easy to shoot other stuff, the short, light trigger, makes it easier to shoot yourself and things you don't intend to shoot. Your testing is pure shooting, and does not account for the not shooting yourself or others unintentionally part.

At the risk of having become Darryl, I think short, light striker triggers are overrated on a carry gun, regardless of how they perform on pure shooting tests. I do love pistols with short, light triggers to game, and think the VP9 and 320 are great additions to the striker world.


I think the VP9 and 320 are the new kings of the service pistol world. For carry in a duty holster with current training doctrine, they work. I seem to be seeing folks like one or the other, but they have merits. The VP9 is a "open box, put in holster, leave it alone" kind of gun. It is really how service pistols should be. We have turned the Glocks into 1911's that can be modified by their owner off YouTube rather than by real gunsmith's......which is scary. All of my VP9's are dead stock at this point, and I am happy.

Trigger stuff.....my opinion is well known. The biggest issue is the training needed to master a trigger made for people management and prisoner taking is not a priority. Many in both government and the private sector have chosen "easy to shoot" in place of training to manage for a variety of reasons. We will simply pay the price for that. I love my VP9. I have changed some carry methods around it. If it didn't exist, I would go back to a LEM gun with no issues. I have become like many police agencies. I do not shoot close to how often I should be. The VP9 is forgiving of that. I am also not dealing with folks at the end of a gun daily, and I am know how to do it, so it is not a huge issue. Striker guns simply become a self correcting problem with little room for error. Pay to play.

The VP9 reminds me of the days when Glocks didn't need anything other than a set of metal sights. We didn't shoot as fast or as efficiently on the bitter edge,but they worked as daily carry service pistols. This is the state of the VP9 in my world with the difference being you get a great grip and stellar component quality and function without a single modification. To me, this is good. I have always looked at the gen 2 Glocks as the AK47's of the pistol world. My VP9 is like my Arsenal SAM7SF that is literally a half MOA capable AK (cold hammer forged Steyr barrels) with heavily improved ergonomics over an old AK. I have done nothing to my SAM7 other than an Aimpoint T1 and a Surefire light and it is just right out of the box. True service guns.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Excellent review!

I really enjoyed reading your background as well. Thanks for putting this out there.

As far as the philosophy of carrying a gun like this, I'm somewhere between GLM and nyeti.

I would not personally consider the 2 examples of VP9s that I have handled to have "light" triggers for a striker gun. They both pulled in the 5.4-5.75# range. For me, a little closer to 6# would be ideal considering the short travel to break on the trigger. I would consider the PPQ trigger "too light" for carry if it weren't for the pretty long pull on it, similar to the LEM but less forgiving at the break as far as ND potential.

This may be just my experience with those particular VP9s, as I have seen quite varied reports on trigger consistency gun to gun. Many have claimed it to be very close to a PPQ weight, but I have yet to see this myself. I have finger banged about a dozen VP9s, not exactly a significant sample.

This is something I'm almost of two minds on. If I were carrying for duty reasons, I would likely not choose a VP9 if given the option of a TDA or LEM gun for the reasons. GJM stated. As I am simply a responsibly armed citizen, I'm okay with carrying a VP9 or even PPQ, as it is highly unlikely my gun leaves the holster in a situation I'm not quite justified in firing.

Still good food for thought though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LSP552]

Great review, thanks!

I've handled and like the VP9. For me, HK really needs a smaller size version to make it a true across the board platform. If they come out with a SK or similar/smaller version, then I'll take a much harder look.

[4string]

Great review, thanks for taking the time to post. As a long time Glock shooter, I've been eyeballing the VP9 hard. Before Glocks, I carried a USPc 9 for a couple of years, as well as many Sigs and others. I have gone back to stock triggers in my Glocks recently for the same reason that Nyeti and GJM state. These days, night sights, and on a few, grip reshape/texture, is it.

However, I'm in the first 500 rounds with a P320c and love it so far. Once it gets to 1000 with no failures, I'll carry it. Speiding tons of time dry firing has helped, but the accuracy and control, for me, was very intuitive out of the box. I've had to learn to shoot Glocks well, the P320 has been easy by comparison.

The VP9 is the other candidate for my new carry/training pistol, but as an FFL I loathe paying retail...none of my distributors have them in stock. I'll snatch one when I can to compare. Your post has been very informative, much appreciated.

[JBP55]

Great review, thanks for taking the time to post. As a long time Glock shooter, I've been eyeballing the VP9 hard. Before Glocks, I carried a USPc 9 for a couple of years, as well as many Sigs and others. I have gone back to stock triggers in my Glocks recently for the same reason that Nyeti and GJM state. These days, night sights, and on a few, grip reshape/texture, is it.

However, I'm in the first 500 rounds with a P320c and love it so far. Once it gets to 1000 with no failures, I'll carry it. Speiding tons of time dry firing has helped, but the accuracy and control, for me, was very intuitive out of the box. I've had to learn to shoot Glocks well, the P320 has been easy by comparison.

The VP9 is the other candidate for my new carry/training pistol, but as an FFL I loathe paying retail...none of my distributors have them in stock. I'll snatch one when I can to compare. Your post has been very informative, much appreciated.

The very small supply of VP9's available at distributors now will dry up soon and will not be available again until some time next year.

[Patrin]

You have won the "warpedcamshaft's longest forum post I've actually read in one sitting so far" award... It's prestigious.

This was an enjoyable read for me... thanks for posting it.

Also... is that a bicycle inner-tube wrapped around the grips of the pistols in the photos? I also spotted a CSAT target and Leopold optics boxes... which likely indicate you are a classy individual.

I accept your award, humbly, Sir.:)

Yes, the rubber sleeve is some 1.25-1.75 inner tube...and your eagle eyes do not deceive you...CSAT indeed and Leupold is my optic of choice...I'm an etched reticle man.


except for buying anything in .40, that I disapprove of.

Haha, yes Jody, I agree. I am, historically as I wrote, not a .40 fan. The great ammo shortage of 2013 changed my tune a bit and I keep a .40 in any service pistol I shoot handy.

GJM, nyeti, to your excellent comments, I do not game. I might begin, and realize I should for proficiency's sake.

I have only ever shot defensive / offensive in a training environment (and privately), and the VP9 will be a defensive gun for me...and I WILL AIWB with it. Only way I ride...or, uh, tote.

When I describe the VP9 as 'too easy to shoot', it's in the context of coming from a 10lb first shot pull...85% of my dry-fire for that last 10 years has been with a 10lb pull. My trigger finger turns bright colors when it feels anything other than a 10lb pull...these days.

Another member made mention that the VP9 pull / break feels more like 6lbs. I agree with that, the pull weight falls within a 5 - 6.5lb pull weight, and the wall is stout. It's possible to run through it under stress I imagine. I have not done so under the minimum stress of timed strings accompanied with getting into a shooting position behind a barricade.

Nor have I ever let a light SA go pre-maturely in a stressful training scenario, nor born witness to such an occurrence. Thankfully for safety, I've been around some good shooters.

I'd say that if one's trigger control is clean...and dry-fire will make your trigger finger clean and sensitive to your chosen platform...I do not see a downside choosing a striker over a DA/SA for a carry gun...even factoring in a stressful deadly force scenario.

Another method to mitigate an ND with your platform is to stay physically fit. If your body is not prepared or conditioned for a regular heart-racing event, I believe that no matter your action, heavy DA or medium-weight striker, you will be more apt to 'let one go'.

Ultimately, I believe it's a training issue...know your gun, know thyself. Train your mind, reflexes (trigger finger) and prepare your body for the marathon of life...as best you can.

Being fit will serve all of us well not just for a moment of combat, but caregiving for a loved one, raising a child or going the distance for our passions in life.

I appreciate all the kind comments for the range report...thank you, gentlemen.

(nyeti, I look forward to your report on the VP9)

[Kyle Reese]

Awesome post, Patrin. Thank you for your insights and for your service. Glad you're enjoying your VP9. :)

[HCM]

Patrin,

Great write up. Have you experienced any issues related to the trough inside the bottom of the trigger guard ? For some reason, this bothers me on some HK P series guns including the VP-9 but not others.

[Patrin]

Patrin,

Great write up. Have you experienced any issues related to the trough inside the bottom of the trigger guard ? For some reason, this bothers me on some HK P series guns including the VP-9 but not others.

Thank you, HCM (and FredM).

No, I have not, but I have medium sized hands with slender fingers. I wonder if a stippling third party could carve out a small curve and fix that for you?

[Patrin]

Thinking on your comment just a bit more, GJM...

In one training scenario I did a few times, the P229 was field stripped and dumped in a bucket...the magazine was taken apart and dumped in same bucket...12 rounds of Gold Dot in the bucket.

You then commenced with 50 knees, alternating a knee, on a heavy body bag, then max pushups for 2 minutes. Upon completion of this exertion, you put the magazine components together, put the rounds in the magazine, put your gun back together...load and engage three racks of steel, various large and small targets...under time...and against another peer.

Out of 40 students, even the bad shooters, I did not see a single light 4 - 4.5 SA pull go off prematurely on a steel plate, between a transition, at charging the hastily assembled handgun or in an emergency reload.

Hearts were racing.

This is not to invalidate your comment, just sharing an experience that has bearing on your comment.

Food for thought is all.

[HCM]

Thank you, HCM (and FredM).

No, I have not, but I have medium sized hands with slender fingers. I wonder if a stippling third party could carve out a small curve and fix that for you?

I have XXL hands but ive only noticed the issue with HK DA/SA guns and the VP-9. For some reason I don't notice it on LEM guns. I'm thining of hitting up Cold Bore customs or someone local for this. I'm sure it's possible, trough removal was /is part of the Bowie tactical Vickers package on the HK 45.

[Eastex]

I'm a new guy here and definitely not qualified enough to add anything to this conversation. I just want to say thanks to all of the posters. This is the kind of "grown ups talking guns" I've been looking for, not that Jerry Springer crap you find on some other forums.

[Sam]

Excellent write up/review Patrin.

GJM, are you okay with your wife carrying Glocks? My wife shoots striker guns very well and doesn't have the time to master a DA pull.

[GJM]

Thinking on your comment just a bit more, GJM...

In one training scenario I did a few times, the P229 was field stripped and dumped in a bucket...the magazine was taken apart and dumped in same bucket...12 rounds of Gold Dot in the bucket.

You then commenced with 50 knees, alternating a knee, on a heavy body bag, then max pushups for 2 minutes. Upon completion of this exertion, you put the magazine components together, put the rounds in the magazine, put your gun back together...load and engage three racks of steel, various large and small targets...under time...and against another peer.

Out of 40 students, even the bad shooters, I did not see a single light 4 - 4.5 SA pull go off prematurely on a steel plate, between a transition, at charging the hastily assembled handgun or in an emergency reload.

Hearts were racing.

This is not to invalidate your comment, just sharing an experience that has bearing on your comment.

Food for thought is all.

Patrin, again an excellent write-up. It obviously took some time to put together, and I enjoyed reading it, hearing your thinking and reflecting on your testing.

My point is not aimed at you personally. Historically we have games like IPSC, and now USPSA. No question, but they are games based on the gear we use and the target scenarios we tackle. Now, in addition to outright games like USPSA, we have a parallel universe, which is timmie games, shot with defensive guns and defensive gear. In timmie games, after we achieve an accuracy standard, time, as in less time, becomes the objective. We all know many ways to be faster. We can wear an appendix holster higher, with less retention. We can shoot lighter triggers. We can shoot 9mm. We can pick our concealment clothing carefully enough that it becomes equipment. We can pick pistols that lend themselves to faster manipulation of the slide stop.

I know that I can shoot a light trigger gun like a 320, VP9 or tweaked Glock better than I can a heavier trigger, heavier caliber gun. I prove it to myself almost every practice session, when I pull out my carry gun when I am done shooting the 320, Glock, CZ or whatever. A month or so ago, I had my 320 Compact .357 Sig pop put of my appendix holster mid flight, in turbulence, hit the floor of the cockpit and flop around there near the rudder pedals. I couldn't figure out a way I was happy holstering that pistol, in between my seat belts, clothing and the turbulence, without unloading the gun. Later, when some thread came up on PF, I did some tests with the 320 and Glock, and was able to make it fire at will, correctly seated in the holster, simulating some tag end of clothing or a cord lock that found its way into the holster. The combination of these two events caused me to reevaluate my priorities in a carry gun, focusing on a gun that is hard to shoot myself with, hard to shoot someone else with by accident, and only then easy to shoot the targets with. When I shoot my arrays with my game gun, as an example, I might average 5.0 seconds for some drill. Then at the end of my session, when I do it with my USP 45, P2000 .40, or whatever is my current flavor of a carry gun, maybe it takes 5.6-6.0 seconds. That is an enormous difference if we are shooting drills for score, and reflects that it is harder to shoot a heavier trigger and possibly a heavier caliber. Of course that doesn't factor in that my carry gun is harder to shoot myself with, and harder to shoot someone else by accident.

If I want to win the timmie games, than every .1 matters. In a real defensive use of a handgun, I value the characteristics of a handgun that do not show up in time alone. As a result, I consider pure shooting tests in evaluating a carry gun. In addition to pure shooting tests, I put a lot of subjective weight on the gun being "safe," which I define as hard to shoot me with and hard to shoot someone else by accident. In a perfect world, we all use perfect technique, in well lit areas, with warm hands, with proper clothing, without being excited. For an imperfect world, I would like some extra forgiveness in my equipment.

None of this is to suggest the VP9 isn't a great gun, that striker guns are inherently unsafe, or that others should evaluate a carry gun the way I do (now) -- just my thinking on this subject.

[Dagga Boy]

Where is GJM.......because the guy who wrote the above is a replacement alien.....;). As soon as he posts about model trains I will know for sure it is a borg posting.

Patrin. Great stuff and it is funny on the drill with the bucket. Did a very similar with my SWAT guys with MP-5's in pieces in a bucket of muddy water. FAR more stress trying to get the gun together (every error required a 50 yard and back run while we put the parts back in the bucket to start over) than the fitness stuff. I will caution though that a bunch of what folks consider stress training is actually "training while tired". Important, sure. Simulates shooting stress, not even close. As I have told many folks, the only thing that I ever found that was "like" a shooting is being in a car accident at speed. It invokes similar response in tactile feel, loss of hearing, time slowing down to a crawl, having to make decisions based on training under extreme stress, and will show how well you have trained very quickly. Of the shootings I have investigated, being tired was not much of a factor. Same with negligent discharges. Most can be traced to poor habits, or practice made permanent of the wrong thing. Also, keeping in a rational mode through confidence and training versus an emotional mode caused by panic. Again, not much tired going on. My guys were stressed on the MP-5 stuff because they had a task they did not remember how to do and panicked. For a bunch of SWAT dogs running and doing forced fitness exercises was not a stressor. When I ran the courses (I would always pre run courses before my guys to identify possible safety issues) for our "Will to Survive" tests I was run by senior SWAT guys. I was more stressed by the running and fitness stressors than the shooting and MP-5 in the bucket stuff (shooting and putting the gun together was rest time for me).

I am of the opinion after studying this stuff since the mid 80's that trigger travel is a far bigger issue in negligent discharges and un-intended shots than weight. I also think weight causes its own issue of building momentum that is harder to reverse than simply building movement. It is why I have evolved on believing the LEM to be the best LE trigger out there for dealing with LE problems (a majority of which has nothing to do with shooting).

[BehindBlueI's]

Thinking on your comment just a bit more, GJM...

In one training scenario I did a few times, the P229 was field stripped and dumped in a bucket...the magazine was taken apart and dumped in same bucket...12 rounds of Gold Dot in the bucket.

You then commenced with 50 knees, alternating a knee, on a heavy body bag, then max pushups for 2 minutes. Upon completion of this exertion, you put the magazine components together, put the rounds in the magazine, put your gun back together...load and engage three racks of steel, various large and small targets...under time...and against another peer.

Out of 40 students, even the bad shooters, I did not see a single light 4 - 4.5 SA pull go off prematurely on a steel plate, between a transition, at charging the hastily assembled handgun or in an emergency reload.

Hearts were racing.

This is not to invalidate your comment, just sharing an experience that has bearing on your comment.

Food for thought is all.

Adrenalin dump and hand shake aren't the only issues at play. Say you are holding a violent suspect at gun point who's got his gun hanging down below his waist. Your brain wants to reassure yourself that you are prepared to shoot him if you have to. "Trigger check" comes into play. Subconsciously some people will touch the trigger to verify to their brain that it is real and that you know where it is. Not everyone does it, but those who do are seldom aware of it until shown it on video.

I can say with 100% conviction that had I been armed with a lighter trigger I would have shot someone who pulled a cellphone. It was night time, armed robbery suspect who fled, fell, rolled over, and pulled something black from his waistband and began to raise it. I had the trigger partially depressed when my brain caught up and realized it was a phone and not a gun. The shot would have almost certainly have been ruled justified given the circumstances, but I'm real glad I didn't shoot him.

[Patrin]

GJM, nothing taken personal bud, far from it, were pistol-forum buddies far as I'm concerned. We grow with every exchange.

I could go on a tangent about shooting faster than a certain speed, some are capable of some remarkable times. I'd wager most shooters on this forum would out-shoot me based on time.

In a defensive scenario, how much time do you need? From where I sit, I don't think tenths of a second should be the goal. Situational awareness should be. By knowing your surroundings, dictate the setting and the time needed to be in an advantageous position...always be looking for cover one wise instructor told me. OODA loop.

If I felt even the least bit tingly about something...for instance...I went to the flight deck...I'm a guy hitting on the stewardess having a cup of coffee, but I'm in the most advantageous position. In the desert, it's the high ground, it's keeping the sun behind you, not approaching thick bush from open ground...giving yourself the breathing room to think.

On time games...I plead sort of aloof to that definition...I stay within a "smooth is fast" zone so that I'm in control. One second A zone hits from the high-ready at 7 yards, 2-3 seconds for a double-tap from the holster. Staying in control, training to be in control / one step ahead, as lamented here often, is just so, so important.

My times are nothing to right home about, and I've never been the fastest or the slowest...I've always just been a solid performer and I think that's a good place to be for any shooter. I've never been left too far behind by another shooter in a course of fire or class. Some may be faster, but mistakes get made faster too...wink, wink.

I wholeheartedly respect your assessment...I'll add that on your test with the P320 and Glock, we could duplicate that with a DA/SA, particularly actions that have DA triggers tuned to 7-8 lbs. It would take a bit more force, but it's doable.

I'll offer the comment that a CCW piece popping out of it's holster...well...sh*t can that holster. That wouldn't be acceptable to me.

A CCW holster should hold the gun until you're ready to draw it...man...I'm just thinking about your scenario on a 777 in the middle of the Atlantic...peeps would be going ape doo-doo if a gun were to pop out.

Any member or lurker on this forum is more in tune with their weapon than the average bear, simply by the desire to figure things out for themselves. We must make our assessment and go with what were are comfortable with.

I think seeking good instruction and training appropriately with whatever you choose is the best redoubt to negligent failure.

[Patrin]

Patrin. Great stuff and it is funny on the drill with the bucket. Did a very similar with my SWAT guys with MP-5's in pieces in a bucket of muddy water. FAR more stress trying to get the gun together (every error required a 50 yard and back run while we put the parts back in the bucket to start over) than the fitness stuff. I will caution though that a bunch of what folks consider stress training is actually "training while tired". Important, sure. Simulates shooting stress, not even close. As I have told many folks, the only thing that I ever found that was "like" a shooting is being in a car accident at speed. It invokes similar response in tactile feel, loss of hearing, time slowing down to a crawl, having to make decisions based on training under extreme stress, and will show how well you have trained very quickly. Of the shootings I have investigated, being tired was not much of a factor. Same with negligent discharges. Most can be traced to poor habits, or practice made permanent of the wrong thing. Also, keeping in a rational mode through confidence and training versus an emotional mode caused by panic. Again, not much tired going on. My guys were stressed on the MP-5 stuff because they had a task they did not remember how to do and panicked. For a bunch of SWAT dogs running and doing forced fitness exercises was not a stressor. When I ran the courses (I would always pre run courses before my guys to identify possible safety issues) for our "Will to Survive" tests I was run by senior SWAT guys. I was more stressed by the running and fitness stressors than the shooting and MP-5 in the bucket stuff (shooting and putting the gun together was rest time for me).

I am of the opinion after studying this stuff since the mid 80's that trigger travel is a far bigger issue in negligent discharges and un-intended shots than weight. I also think weight causes its own issue of building momentum that is harder to reverse than simply building movement. It is why I have evolved on believing the LEM to be the best LE trigger out there for dealing with LE problems (a majority of which has nothing to do with shooting).

nyeti, those simulated fitness-stress scenarios are a bit more hardcore than I participated in. I bow to that insight.

We can overcome tired, and behindbluel's point on adrenalin dump and trigger checking are well taken.

In the training environment, dry, live, sims, shoot-house, role-playing, executing arrests while pepper sprayed...there's only so far we can go to simulate D-day or how we will react on the street. Thankfully, good situational awareness, a cool head and playing some verbal chess can keep us from getting there in many encounters.

Vigorous testing at least can highlight to ourselves how we may react God forbid.

Points, and experience, very well taken, indeed.

[Dagga Boy]

The bucket of MP-5 parts was the easy part. Our "Will to Survive" course was brutal. It was a sickener and confidence builder used to show guys how they could effectively shoot even under the worst of conditions. Simulated injuries got worse with every shot until they were down to one eye in a gas mask and a thumb and index finger on their support hand while grounded and being soaked with cold water and "encouraged" by their teammates. It was a massive mind screw as well with some real psychological stuff thrown in. The point of these exercises was to not have my guys have to figure out how to run their gun under horribly adverse conditions as the time to learn how to do this is not in the middle of a fight. We had to stop doing them after a few years when it became more of a hazing operation for new SWAT guys than a training evolution, but the skills learned was valuable.
I find the key to all this kind of stuff is more to train the brain to remain calm and in a rational state during times of distraction or tough conditions. This can be exhaustion, fear, injury, or many other factors. This is one of the big benefits of competition is essentially trying to remain on your game and execute the fundamentals when under an unknown time pressure. Those who can stay focused under stress are learning a valuable skill.

[RJ]

I'm a new guy here and definitely not qualified enough to add anything to this conversation. I just want to say thanks to all of the posters. This is the kind of "grown ups talking guns" I've been looking for, not that Jerry Springer crap you find on some other forums.

You and me both brother.

[Patrin]

nyeti...roger that, brother...I like fitness / rough condition oriented hazing...gives you the measure of a woman or man right up front. As you pointed out, it makes the cult of mediocrity uncomfortable, ahem, the powers that be.

When you planning on posting your year-long VP9 report?


You and me both brother.

By your signature line, your heart is an old soul and in the right place. You're where you belong here.

The signature line reminds of a line from Uncommon Valor; a woman asks Gene Hackman how much $ her Vietnam Veteran boyfriend / husband will get for going on a private mission to rescue POW's..."nothing in dollars" was Gene's deadpan response.

Bit of a tangent...but a raw thought at the moment.

Back to programming......

[GJM]

Excellent write up/review Patrin.

GJM, are you okay with your wife carrying Glocks? My wife shoots striker guns very well and doesn't have the time to master a DA pull.

In a perfect world she would carry a DA/SA and have bigger boobs, but I have been blessed so much, I really don't have anything to complain about. She doesn't do appendix, infrequently IWB, and is fortunate enough to have a Gadget. She does virtually all her live fire practice with a Blade Tech OWB on a BOSS hangar, and carries all day, every day, in a Rosen OWB. I think in her perfect world, I would only carry a Glock, and.....

[Patrin]

and have bigger boobs, but I have been blessed so much

Nice legs and butt make up for that....well-rounded personality trumps both boobs and legs.:cool:

[RJ]

...

By your signature line, your heart is an old soul and in the right place. You're where you belong here.

The signature line reminds of a line from Uncommon Valor; a woman asks Gene Hackman how much $ her Vietnam Veteran boyfriend / husband will get for going on a private mission to rescue POW's..."nothing in dollars" was Gene's deadpan response.

Bit of a tangent...but a raw thought at the moment.

Back to programming......

Thanks Patrin. I do like that quote. I'm a retired Boy Scout Leader, and used it a lot.

Ref firearms, I have only recently learned I don't even know what I don't know. I stick around here, and listen, mostly. So far, they haven't kicked me out. :cool:

Please, carry on with the thread.

Rich

[johncorey]

All this VP9 chit chat is not helping me stay monogamous to the only SFA platforms I shoot....

[johncorey]

Also, I think it could be beneficial in starting a new thread for experiences with the proverbial stress shoots. Lots of solid approaches from the LEO/MIL backgrounds here. The Army lets you only play so rough stateside, or garrison side for those stationed outside CONUS, but once you're deployed, the training value jumps exponentially due to the Wizards of Range Control/Ops no longer wielding their evil powers.

[Trooper224]

Patrin, thank you for the excellent review and thanks to everyone else for the outstanding discussion in this thread.

[LSP972]

Patrin,

Have you experienced any issues related to the trough inside the bottom of the trigger guard ? For some reason, this bothers me on some HK P series guns including the VP-9 but not others.

This is a highly subjective thing. It bugs the hell out of me on my P30s; doesn't bother the wife at all on hers, and didn't bother me on the HK45 full size. The short time I had a VP9, I noted that it wasn't nearly as annoying, but if I had kept the VP9 I would have removed it anyway. Basically, it chews up the "bottom side" of my trigger finger enough so that, after 50 rounds or so, it becomes painful.

Removing it is not difficult to do. The trick is making it "pretty". You just remove the trigger and mag catch lever, and grind that sucker down with a Dremel. When you get it where you want it with the sanding drum, you follow-up polish with a felt rouge wheel. I don't have photo posting priviledges here, but if you will send me an e-mail address via PM, I can shoot you a few before-and after pix to give you an idea of what it looks like.

I think it has a lot to do with exaggerated curvature of the HK trigger, in conjunction with how your hand adapts to the spiderman grip. HK put it there to ostensibly keep one's glove from bunching up and retarding trigger travel.

.

[LittleLebowski]

Posts like the original are why I read gun forums. Well written, sir.

[Dagga Boy]

It is funny that the trough used to be a huge annoyance to me. Now after having numerous Gus with them and shooting and carrying them for several years I don't even notice it. I think this is simply a matter of trigger finger placement and your finger figures out where to be on the trigger when that is all you are shooting.

[BobLoblaw]

It is funny that the trough used to be a huge annoyance to me. Now after having numerous Gus with them and shooting and carrying them for several years I don't even notice it. I think this is simply a matter of trigger finger placement and your finger figures out where to be on the trigger when that is all you are shooting.

The VP9 trough doesn't bother me a bit. I had to apply a bit of emery cloth on the P30 trough or else the blisters would eventually return on high round count days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RJ]

Patrin - I reread your post again this morning, and wanted to ask a question,if I may.

With regard to the VP9 trigger, what changes, if any, did you subjectively or objectively notice from early on until near the end of the 1,000 rounds? Anything that you would call a significant change?

[Patrin]

With regard to the VP9 trigger, what changes, if any, did you subjectively or objectively notice from early on until near the end of the 1,000 rounds? Anything that you would call a significant change?

I'll address two avenues, since I'm unsure of which you want to hear about...and that's no problem.

Feel of the specific VP9 trigger used for the range report...pull felt from the start between 5.5 and 6 lbs., with some slight grit in the slack to the wall and a smidgen of creep after the wall to the break.

After the full 1,000...the grit in the slack is mostly gone and the creep after the wall is gone completely. Now, after the 1K, you take out the slack, come to the wall, push through and the shot breaks.

The more broad view in terms of a transition from DA/SA to the HK striker, really not much of one. My SIG DA (stock action) has a bit of slack before the roll (trigger press) begins. A SIG SA is much like a two-stage AR trigger...or striker...take up slack to wall, break shot.

The VP9 trigger wall is stout enough that I didn't have to really make a mental re-wire to lessen the force of my trigger pull...10 lbs. to 5.5 lbs...to lessen the chance of a premature shot. I simply do as I have always done when presenting the pistol...take out slack to the wall and break the shot as my sights align on target.

The HK engineers, I believe, really put some thought into how the 'wall' of the break was to interact with shooter's trigger finger. You come to the wall and your mind immediately recognizes the resistance of it and, then, make the decision to fire or not. It's the most predictable part of the trigger. Very well thought out.

Hope that covers it all bud.

[Beat Trash]

As for the trough in the VP9, it bothered me at first. But as I experimented around with the grip panel combinations to find the right combo for my hand, I finally settled on the perfect combination. Then one day it occurred to me that the trough was a non-issue in the VP9.

[okie john]

Great thread. This is the kind of thing that keeps me coming back.


Okie John

[4string]

The very small supply of VP9's available at distributors now will dry up soon and will not be available again until some time next year.

So I've read. Not to derail the thread, but any info on why?

[RJ]

I'll address two avenues, since I'm unsure of which you want to hear about...and that's no problem.

...

Hope that covers it all bud.

Yup, thanks. I kinda made it open ended, as I was curious what you thought.

I can see what you are talking about, when I dry fire (I must have over 1,000 dry presses, plus 300+ rounds, so far on mine.)

Much obliged.

Rich

[j.d.allen]

(sigh) I wish I could buy a VP9. Isn't California great??? /sarcasm

[RJ]

So I've read. Not to derail the thread, but any info on why?

Speculation suggests they are working on something in Oberndorf, which is gobbling up production capacity.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16842-No-more-VP9-s-40-s-or-P30SK-s-until-2016&highlight=Oberndorf

[Dagga Boy]

Patron, your trigger experience mirrors mine. I kept guns with sort of gritty crappy triggers out of the box as far as VP9 triggers go. But in each case the guns shot great. Within a few hundred rounds they improve and by a thousand, they feel good and they are very predictable. For a "Service" trigger, I REALLY like them.

[LSP972]

I think this is simply a matter of trigger finger placement and your finger figures out where to be on the trigger when that is all you are shooting.


Probably so… in which case I have a retarded trigger finger, because it never figured it out.

.

[HCM]

Patrón, your trigger experience mirrors mine. I kept guns with sort of gritty crappy triggers out of the box as far as VP9 triggers go. But in each case the guns shot great. Within a few hundred rounds they improve and by a thousand, they feel good and they are very predictable. For a "Service" trigger, I REALLY like them.

FIFY :cool:

[GJM]

Here is a question that I forgot to ask, reference this:


It involved splitting a playing card in half, edge wise, from seven yards, timed. A student could choose to do it from the high-ready or from the holster. I chose to do it from my leather thumb break holster and, on the draw, in DA, split the card in half in 1.5 seconds timed:


If I could do that, and it wasn't a pure fluke, they would have to physically pry that 229 out of my hands with a crow bar, to take it from me. Why not so for you?

[David S.]

It's been a couple years since I took Bruce Gray's Practical Fundamentals (their first level class), but everyone in my class was able to cut the card from freestyle at 7 yards under no time pressure. Most of us took a couple of attempts.

That's impressive work at 1.5 sec from the holster.

[Patrin]

Here is a question that I forgot to ask, reference this:


It involved splitting a playing card in half, edge wise, from seven yards, timed. A student could choose to do it from the high-ready or from the holster. I chose to do it from my leather thumb break holster and, on the draw, in DA, split the card in half in 1.5 seconds timed:


If I could do that, and it wasn't a pure fluke, they would have to physically pry that 229 out of my hands with a crow bar, to take it from me. Why not so for you?

Fair question...that was my very thought for awhile.

It's come down to confidence in the distance spectrum I want to stay proficient in...per the aforementioned DA gremlin I've developed. I want one handgun to do it all, with complete confidence in my ability to make hits.

Admittedly...for honesty's sake...I had become wed to the novelty of DA/SA. Not a great many shooters shoot DA/SA (vs. striker), and I liked being in a different club and doing it well, even after skill was diminishing. That kind of thinking was holding me back from trying different things that may work better at this point in my shooting journey.

I went through a parallel thought process with guns I really like but didn't shoot much or had sentimental value. A cold look at my collection and it was obvious a fair amount of dumping was necessary. I decided I was in it for the skill and not the collecting.

$ value that could be used for boo-koo ammo to practice more, needed first aid / trauma kits, webbing, plates. Lean, efficient tools is mostly what I have now...everything has a role...no straphangers, save for my Mother's .22 pistol and I may still sell it, as it serves no role in my regimen.

Can't take it with me....even when the next American revolution occurs...how much can I carry? A lot of skill that could rule the day...limited ammo and firearms. That's not sarcasm either, the world's going to be a dangerous place for awhile.

I even sold the SIG I split that card with...I don't miss it.

[Sammy1]

Very good write up, I enjoyed it. I hate shooting with FAMS, they are too accurate and quick. Sorry to hear of your health issues. I disagree with your opinion on the P320. I love the P320 trigger right out of the box. I think Sig has turned a corner and bringing quality back to their product.

[Dagga Boy]

Very good write up, I enjoyed it. I hate shooting with FAMS, they are too accurate and quick. Sorry to hear of your health issues. I disagree with your opinion on the P320. I love the P320 trigger right out of the box. I think Sig has turned a corner and bringing quality back to their product.

I have found most folks love the VP9 or the 320, and find the other to be "okay". I have not met a single person who simply "loved" both, myself included. I Love the VP9, and think the 320 is okay.

To mirror Patrin in the platform change. I had a respected industry member look me right and the eye and say "let me get this straight, you have shot a quarter million rounds through Glock 9mm's and you are carrying a VP9?". I simply shoot them better and like the gun more even though a have a ton of time on the Glock, and have shot twice as much through DA/SA .45's (P-220 and USP45's). Sometimes one comes along that simply works. The VP9 is that gun in a striker 9mm service pistol. The P2000 and 2000SK in LEM and I like several of the DA/SA guns.

[GJM]

Sometimes one comes along that simply works. The VP9 is that gun in a striker 9mm service pistol.

As I recall, you had decided that before you ever shot a VP9. :)

Between the VP9 and 320, it has been an incredible period for new, excellent striker pistol choices.

[StraitR]

Great thread Patrin, and thanks for taking the time to be so thorough. My experience with, and admiration for, the VP9 mirrors yours. I was dedicated to Glocks for the better part of a decade, but between a Wilson I bought in 2014 and a VP9 I picked up in February, I haven't shot my 19 or 17 for almost a year. That's pretty surprising to me, but I hadn't thought about it until reading your comment on having "straphangers". Between both Gen 4 guns, mags, and support equipment, I have SO much Glock crap that I think I just found a way to subsidize my dwindling ammo fund, pick up a second VP9 and a shiny NFA item I've had my eye on.

Again, thanks for sharing.

[Dagga Boy]

As I recall, you had decided that before you ever shot a VP9. :)

Between the VP9 and 320, it has been an incredible period for new, excellent striker pistol choices.

In all seriousness, I think my conversion from the Glock to the P30 a couple years earlier made the VP9 a no brainer. I got all the ergonomics, feel, quality control, magazine reliability, etc. of the P30 with a much easier to master trigger. I found on going from the Glock to the P30 I lost some "speed" and forgiveness in the trigger for a gain in all the other listed area and especially in accuracy. The VP9 gave me the "Glock loss" in trigger back. The P30 has been sort of the loser in my gun world. For what I want a LEM gun for, the P2000's and Hk45's fill that role. For what I was doing with the P30, the VP9 has replaced it.
If I was still a working street cop this may have been a different debate, as I still REALLY like the LEM for what it was intended for.

[GJM]

"Good evening, everyone, my name is Darryl. I am here because I am addicted. I am addicted to HK. I love lots of platforms. Those platforms are P7, USP, USP Compact, P2000, P30, HK45 and now VP9. I like the VP9 because I can shoot it like a Glock, but don't feel dirty like when I shoot a Glock. Oh yeah, I like S&W revolvers, too. I got into revolvers by accident. My investment advisor said buy stock and bonds, but I misunderstood and thought he said buy Smith and Wesson. My favorite trigger is LEM. LEM stands for Loveit, Even, More."

[StraitR]

Oh no he didn't. snap* snap* snap*

[Mark]

In all seriousness, I think my conversion from the Glock to the P30 a couple years earlier made the VP9 a no brainer. I got all the ergonomics, feel, quality control, magazine reliability, etc. of the P30 with a much easier to master trigger. I found on going from the Glock to the P30 I lost some "speed" and forgiveness in the trigger for a gain in all the other listed area and especially in accuracy. The VP9 gave me the "Glock loss" in trigger back. The P30 has been sort of the loser in my gun world. For what I want a LEM gun for, the P2000's and Hk45's fill that role. For what I was doing with the P30, the VP9 has replaced it.
If I was still a working street cop this may have been a different debate, as I still REALLY like the LEM for what it was intended for.


As a still working cop who has enjoyed many of your posts (and analysis on admin type situations) what do you prefer the LEM for over the striker for duty use?

[Dagga Boy]

As a still working cop who has enjoyed many of your posts (and analysis on admin type situations) what do you prefer the LEM for over the striker for duty use?

I like the "error room" and "changing my mind/changing situation room" in the LEM. Having carried both hammer fired and striker guns as duty pistols, I also like a hammer gun for reholstering. Unlike how most of us carry and use pistols for concealed defensive use, LEO's are both drawing and re-holstering often, doing it under stress, and handling numerous people daily with a pistol out of the holster and often pointing it at them (assuming they are working a busy metropolitan area). Additionally, you are often handling the gun while performing other tasks and using it with other equipment like flashlights. You are also doing a bunch of administrative handling. Again, lots of handling and gun in and out of the holster. You are also doing a ton of offensive handgun work where you are actively hunting armed bad guys with a pistol, which is also unlike concealed daily CCW use. If I went back to work today, I would be torn between my pair of P30LS V1 LEM guns (rare) or my HK45's with V1 LEMs and safeties. I like the idea of a mechanical safety as well.

Would these set ups be as easy to train as a striker pistol? No, which is why most agencies want striker guns is they have less investment to make to get their people to simply "qualify" and if they make a mistake, they were "told" not to put their finger on the trigger, so that box is checked. In the case of agencies who want a striker fired pistol, my top choice right now is the VP9. It also makes a great daily concealed carry gun, as that is exactly what I carry every day.

[GJM]

Darryl, why not a USP 45 over the HK45, given the LEM on the USP is generally regarded as the best example of the LEM in the HK line?

[Mark]

I like the "error room" and "changing my mind/changing situation room" in the LEM. Having carried both hammer fired and striker guns as duty pistols, I also like a hammer gun for reholstering. Unlike how most of us carry and use pistols for concealed defensive use, LEO's are both drawing and re-holstering often, doing it under stress, and handling numerous people daily with a pistol out of the holster and often pointing it at them (assuming they are working a busy metropolitan area). Additionally, you are often handling the gun while performing other tasks and using it with other equipment like flashlights. You are also doing a bunch of administrative handling. Again, lots of handling and gun in and out of the holster. You are also doing a ton of offensive handgun work where you are actively hunting armed bad guys with a pistol, which is also unlike concealed daily CCW use. If I went back to work today, I would be torn between my pair of P30LS V1 LEM guns (rare) or my HK45's with V1 LEMs and safeties. I like the idea of a mechanical safety as well.

Would these set ups be as easy to train as a striker pistol? No, which is why most agencies want striker guns is they have less investment to make to get their people to simply "qualify" and if they make a mistake, they were "told" not to put their finger on the trigger, so that box is checked. In the case of agencies who want a striker fired pistol, my top choice right now is the VP9. It also makes a great daily concealed carry gun, as that is exactly what I carry every day.

Did you order the P30LS V1 or just find them somewhere? I was thinking about that very combination earlier and had considered it on a USP 45 LEM I stupidly sold a while back.

[LSP972]

Darryl, why not a USP 45 over the HK45, given the LEM on the USP is generally regarded as the best example of the LEM in the HK line?

Uh… what???

Can you expand on that a bit? WHO generally regards the USP LEM as superior?

Not trying to be confrontational with this; just exceedingly curious. Because… parts are the same…

.

[LSP972]

Would these set ups be as easy to train as a striker pistol? No, which is why most agencies want striker guns is they have less investment to make to get their people to simply "qualify", so that box is checked.


Bingo. That is EXACTLY why revolvers ruled American LE for so long.

.

[GJM]

Uh… what???

Can you expand on that a bit? WHO generally regards the USP LEM as superior?

Not trying to be confrontational with this; just exceedingly curious. Because… parts are the same…

.

I think Darryl told me the USP LEM is the best of any HK. LtDave reported a similar thing lately, can't remember if it was in the USP thread or privately.

[Dagga Boy]

The ability to combine the USP Match parts and LEM parts. They are close, but I found the overtravel stop to be a big help with the HK's. I much prefer the ergonomics of the HK45 as it fits my hand much better than the USP full-size. I am sure I mentioned here before that I shot my off duty USP 45 Compact better than my full size duty gun due to hand fit. With the HK45 I get a better hand fit and full-size function. I also like it for running the Surefire U-boat on.

My P30LS V1's. Only 500 brought in. I have two I have grabbed when the opportunity presented itself. Both were sent to Dawson to be fitted for fiber optics and sighted in at 25 yards with them at Dawson. Those are two long-term keepers. I also have a P30L with a TLG LEM. While I have moved some P30's in favor of P2000's, I am keeping all three of the P30L's as they are like the "duty size" or tactical P2000 LEMs for me, and work well with a weapon mounted light.

[LSP972]

Okay, thanks. The thing is, the HK45/HK45C/USP/USPc all use the same LEM parts, except for the slightly longer main spring of the two full size pistols. I have owned and shot all of those, all LEMs; and while they are indeed different, the difference is in the grip, size, and overall handling of the pistol. You probably knew all of that, but to me, a USPf LEM trigger and an HK45C LEM trigger, assuming the same FPB and trigger return springs in each, feels the same in terms of trigger pull.

The P2000 and P30 LEM triggers, of course, ARE different… with their longer reset. Perhaps that is what they were talking about.

I've always wondered why HK did that; make the P-series LEM have a longer reset. Nobody seems to know. A buddy actually got a limited tour of the HK factory in Oberndorf a year or so ago, and I asked him to ask them that specifically. He got a blank look in response...:confused:

.

[LSP972]

The ability to combine the USP Match parts and LEM parts. They are close, but I found the overtravel stop to be a big help with the HK's.

Ah. I was talking stock triggers; different ball game, there.

You used an overtravel stop trigger on a duty gun???

.

[Patrin]

Great thread Patrin, and thanks for taking the time to be so thorough. My experience with, and admiration for, the VP9 mirrors yours. I was dedicated to Glocks for the better part of a decade, but between a Wilson I bought in 2014 and a VP9 I picked up in February, I haven't shot my 19 or 17 for almost a year. That's pretty surprising to me, but I hadn't thought about it until reading your comment on having "straphangers". Between both Gen 4 guns, mags, and support equipment, I have SO much Glock crap that I think I just found a way to subsidize my dwindling ammo fund, pick up a second VP9 and a shiny NFA item I've had my eye on.

Again, thanks for sharing.

Thank you, bud.

It's not easy to do, lay out one's collection and make a practical assessment. I love guns. Most all of us love guns. Unfortunately, most of us aren't millionaires. We are 'service' men. Using the meager business acumen that my psyche has developed...certainly not born with...it was a no-brainer (there's a pun here somewhere).

To get personal for a moment...I've seen my share of dead people...many of us had, too many. It wasn't until watching my Mother go slow, almost 2 years, and then cleaning out her things, solidified my decision to cut lots of things loose. I've always been a minimalist, but sh*t went into overdrive. I feel like Jack Reacher some days...not as tough though.

The learning, feats of performance, memories made training...and more importantly...being around some world class Americans, that's the stuff that counts at the end of the day...and , symbiotically, will make you a bad-ass shooter.:cool:

nyeti, I'm humbled by your breadth of trigger action experience...and round counts.

[MGW]

nytei, where is your VP9 article at? Would like to read it if or when it is available.

[psalms144.1]

I have found most folks love the VP9 or the 320, and find the other to be "okay". I have not met a single person who simply "loved" both, myself included. I Love the VP9, and think the 320 is okay.Because I'm TDY, I spent a couple of hours in the local gun store yesterday. I spent plenty of time fondling both the VP9 and P320C. Before that, I was planning on getting a P320C.

After handling and dry firing, I can tell you that I've got a call into my wholesaler to get a VP9. They're dimensionally about equivalent, capacity equivalent. The VP9 feels great in the hand all the way around, the P320 feels cheap. The VP9 trigger was spectacular - short, crisp, clean. Reset is longish, but positive. P320C trigger was "meh" at best, heavy with a lot of over travel and significant slide movement after striker releases. P320C reset is SICK - very short, very positive.

But, overall, I'm with Nyeti, the P320 does nothing for me, but the VP9 is worth my money...

[BehindBlueI's]

. P320C trigger was "meh" at best, heavy with a lot of over travel and significant slide movement after striker releases. P320C reset is SICK - very short, very positive.

I'm figuring one of those is a typo and meant to be VP9.

[JHC]

I'm figuring one of those is a typo and meant to be VP9.

I didn't think so. I figured he meant he did not like the quality of the 320 pull whereas it's reset is sick. Which its gotten rave reviews for.

[psalms144.1]

I'm figuring one of those is a typo and meant to be VP9.Nope, meant what I typed. P320 pull and overtravel were worse than any Glock I've ever shot, but the reset is VERY short and positive. VP9's trigger is smoother and breaks "better" than any striker I've ever handled, but the reset is longer than the Glock...

[s0nspark]

Nope, meant what I typed. P320 pull and overtravel were worse than any Glock I've ever shot, but the reset is VERY short and positive. VP9's trigger is smoother and breaks "better" than any striker I've ever handled, but the reset is longer than the Glock...

I find I really like the VP9 reset - it seems to reset close to the break point (which I like) and has a little kick out at the end that has kept me from over-anticipating it.

[BehindBlueI's]

Nope, meant what I typed. P320 pull and overtravel were worse than any Glock I've ever shot, but the reset is VERY short and positive. VP9's trigger is smoother and breaks "better" than any striker I've ever handled, but the reset is longer than the Glock...

Thanks. I played with the 320 at a LGS and yeah, the reset is REAL short.

[LostDuke]

Very interesting post, informative and well structured. Enjoyed it, thank you.

[Dagga Boy]

nytei, where is your VP9 article at? Would like to read it if or when it is available.

It "should be" in a major publication. When I confirm it is coming out, I ll post it.

[Dagga Boy]

I've always wondered why HK did that; make the P-series LEM have a longer reset. Nobody seems to know. A buddy actually got a limited tour of the HK factory in Oberndorf a year or so ago, and I asked him to ask them that specifically. He got a blank look in response...:confused:

.

The answer is actually easy. It is part of the German police/military contract requirements where minimum reset distance is part of the contract specifications.

As far as reset on the VP 9, I like where it is as it seems very predictable to me and I have had no issues with it.

Over travel stop on a duty gun- I have it on my USP45 Expert and I had I on a USP Tactical. The Expert was a dedicated WML tactical,pistol and set up for purely raid work. Never used it in patrol, but did for search warrants and other special circumstances and had no issues with the factory over travel stop.

[LSP972]

The answer is actually easy. It is part of the German police/military contract requirements where minimum reset distance is part of the contract specifications.



So the German cops must have a different requirement from the Bundeswehr… assuming the latter still issues the P8? Moot point, to be sure… but curious, nonetheless.

Dedicated WML tactical pistol… got it. I didn't embrace that concept until we got G35s and InSight M3s for SWAT. I did NOT like that pistol, especially did not like to shoot it, and kept using my G17 for SWAT… until LSP 552 "suggested" I start using the company gun for SWAT. We were friends, but he was also the SWAT boss, so…


When I had to leave the team after my heart attack, turning in the G35 was the only part of the process that didn't bother me.

.

[LSP552]

Dedicated WML tactical pistol… got it. I didn't embrace that concept until we got G35s and InSight M3s for SWAT. I did NOT like that pistol, especially did not like to shoot it, and kept using my G17 for SWAT… until LSP 552 "suggested" I start using the company gun for SWAT. We were friends, but he was also the SWAT boss, so…


When I had to leave the team after my heart attack, turning in the G35 was the only part of the process that didn't bother me.

.

That guy was a Dick..;)

[LSP972]

That guy was a Dick..;)

Indeed. But it made sense, despite my thoughts to the contrary.;)

.

[1slow]

Patrin,
Kudos for a thoughtful meaningful contribution to making this forum what it is.

[Patrin]

Thanks 1slow...

Put 300 rounds through the VP40 this evening...hot d*mn...mini-rifle.

Ran like an ornery silverback.

On a 6 inch bull at 25 yards, unsupported, 41 out of 60 in the black, other 19 bordering in the 7 and 8 ring. 299 and 298 on mock FAM PPC's.

Very pleasant to shoot...flat shooting...maybe more accurate than my VP 9...not the traditional 'sharp' or 'harsh' recoil of other .40 pistols.

[EJO]

To mirror Patrin in the platform change. I had a respected industry member look me right and the eye and say "let me get this straight, you have shot a quarter million rounds through Glock 9mm's and you are carrying a VP9?". I simply shoot them better and like the gun more even though a have a ton of time on the Glock, and have shot twice as much through DA/SA .45's (P-220 and USP45's). Sometimes one comes along that simply works. The VP9 is that gun in a striker 9mm service pistol. The P2000 and 2000SK in LEM and I like several of the DA/SA guns.

This! I've been carrying and shooting Glocks for the last 12 years of my career. I owned multiple Glocks and multiple models, way too many magazines, and God knows how much leather and Kydex for them. It took months (because I am not a rich man I don't have the luxury of numerous systems) I have officially sold off all of my Glocks/ accessories and have fully switched over to the VP9. One for my patrol pistol and off duty carry, one for my SRT kit and a third for heavy shooting. I've never felt better about a decision. The VP9 platform is what I've been waiting for, for years... I have no desire to go back to shooting Glocks. For me the VP9 is that good.

[P30]

I have no desire to go back to shooting Glocks. For me the VP9 is that good.
Since you are an expert on both Glock and VP9: What specifically is better about the VP9? Do you hit faster or more accurately with the VP9? Why?

I ask because I consider to buy a Glock 19 or a SFP9 (= VP9 in Europe). Our gun laws in Germany are not very liberal, so I had to sell one of my pistols for it. Now, I have two P30s (V3 and V4) and an M&P9. The P30 V4 is my favorite pistol so far. Probably I would give up the M&P.

[bfoosh006]

I would like to preface my comments with my back ground info....
I have no specific training nor experience... just a crap load of trigger time, with a variety of the firearms mentioned in this thread.


Patrin, thank you for your input, very insightful.
I was truly impressed with the HK VP9.... ( Finally a polymer frame striker fired I like ) I have tried for years and years to like Glocks and M&P's but never felt like they fit me. I was so surprised with the VP9, that it actually took until the next morning for me to quit trying to convince myself of what was wrong with it.

Nothing was wrong with it. I will order one as soon as them become moderately priced. In the mean while I will continue to borrow my friends. I shoot it far more accurately then my Beretta 92, CZ75, and P16/40

Nyeti, I also fully agree with your comments about trigger pull.... my experience is more focused on AR15 triggers... but I fully agree that a trigger with little to no stacking and a light pull weight... is best left to competition. A longer trigger pull with a definitive increase in weight prior to breaking and a short reset is perfect for me.

I have never been a fan of the Glock... its grip shape and recoil impulse as a result of the grip, never felt comfortable. I could verify ( at least to myself ) through simulator training with a CO2 Glock. My times are quick and my shoots accurate with the CO2 Glock... but with a "real" Glock my scores dropped noticeably.


Again, I am just a gunny person.... but.. the VP9 has changed my views of Poly Striker guns.... and I thought that would never happen.

[johncorey]

I will order one as soon as them become moderately priced. In the mean while I will continue to borrow my friends. I shoot it far more accurately then my Beretta 92, CZ75, and P16/40


Not to ruin your cheerios, but the words on the streets are that HK will be increasing the price of the VP series, not decreasing it. With a little searching, the VP9 can be had for mid 500s all day.

[RJ]

Not to ruin your cheerios, but the words on the streets are that HK will be increasing the price of the VP series, not decreasing it.

More info please...?

[Kyle Reese]

Probably I would give up the M&P.

You won't miss it if you give it up.

[johncorey]

More info please...?

It's been discussed by some dudes over on Pro who are usually very in tune with what's going on with the mothership. If you look at it from a purely business stand point, it also makes sense. Currently the VP9 is listed as $719, but can be had all day for mid $500s. HK has clearly been okay with this, which they needed to be in order to move product and generate cash flow to start their climb into the black. With the runaway success the VP9 has been for them, they are now closing the spigot (reasons not publicly stated), thereby creating another purchasing rush. Once the stock on these shores dries up, the spigot won't be opened again until the next spring, but once it does, it looks like it will be accompanied with a new normal street price closer to the $719 list, maybe even higher.

I believe the general drug dealing model is very similar to this....

[JBP55]

The VP Series sales will take a Big Nosedive if HK raises the price by $200 per unit.

[Luke]

They might, maybe not. I paid $720 for mine. Granted they were kinda new and it was the LE package (night sights 3 mags)

[RJ]

It's been discussed by some dudes over on Pro who are usually very in tune with what's going on with the mothership. If you look at it from a purely business stand point, it also makes sense. Currently the VP9 is listed as $719, but can be had all day for mid $500s. HK has clearly been okay with this, which they needed to be in order to move product and generate cash flow to start their climb into the black. With the runaway success the VP9 has been for them, they are now closing the spigot (reasons not publicly stated), thereby creating another purchasing rush. Once the stock on these shores dries up, the spigot won't be opened again until the next spring, but once it does, it looks like it will be accompanied with a new normal street price closer to the $719 list, maybe even higher.

I believe the general drug dealing model is very similar to this....

Ach so...restrict supplies and raise prices.

Uhuh.

Are they NUTS?!

Sorry, just needed to vent. I am sure you are right though; I understand the current management of the company makes Kim Kardashian look like Gordon Gecko.

[johncorey]

As of now it's all talk and chit chat. The only thing which is certain is that HK is no longer producing the VP 9&40, or the P30SK this year. At least for the U.S. market. There's plenty of speculation as to why. I'm certainly not privy to the factual reasoning. Once they start cranking em out again, we'll see what happens. Maybe nothing. Maybe everything. Or maybe list price becomes street price. I think a safe bet would be to swoop in now, if a VP 9 or 40 is on your "to buy" horizon. Why gamble with an unknown in the future?

[RJ]

As of now it's all talk and chit chat. The only thing which is certain is that HK is no longer producing the VP 9&40, or the P30SK this year. At least for the U.S. market. There's plenty of speculation as to why. I'm certainly not privy to the factual reasoning. Once they start cranking em out again, we'll see what happens. Maybe nothing. Maybe everything. Or maybe list price becomes street price. I think a safe bet would be to swoop in now, if a VP 9 or 40 is on your "to buy" horizon. Why gamble with an unknown in the future?

Solid copy.

I'm hanging on to mine. I fished it out of GJM's dumpster in March. Pretty sure he hasn't missed it yet. :cool:

Kidding! No, I followed the advice here and bought a VP9 already. It shoots totally better than my M&P it is not funny. At 25 yards Sunday I had 19 of 20 rounds 'on' the B-8 standing 2 handed. Which for me, learning to shoot 2 years ago at age 55, is pretty good.

[johncorey]

That's some solid shooting for anyone, at any age, or any level of training! I may have to finally see what all this VP9 hype is about....a dude was running one at IDPA on Saturday. Looked very slick while shooting it. He did have more than a few stoppages, which was of interest to me. Regardless, the gun is a winner for sure.

[ralph]

The VP Series sales will take a Big Nosedive if HK raises the price by $200 per unit.

Agreed, one of the biggest selling points was that this was a pistol that really needed nothing but the sights of your choice, and even then, the stock sights weren't that bad.. They start jacking up the price, and sales will stagnate. It's a great pistol at $550-650. Competes well with Glock at that price point. Bump the price up to $750-$850, and people will give them a passing glance on their way down to the Glock end of the counter.. With a $300 million debt hanging over their head, HK can't afford to do something stupid, and this would be.

[Patrin]

That's some solid shooting for anyone, at any age, or any level of training!

Indeed.

[johncorey]

Well, this IS HK we are talking about....plenty of missteps have been made before. And before someone reminds me how the German export laws prevent them for being billionaires twenty times over, this is the same country which allows and even protects German firms to bribe other firms/entities/govs when doing business outside of Germany proper. The soul requirement is that the bribe amount must be claimed as an operating expense come tax time. So I would argue that a certain flexibility is definitely there. Where there's a will there's a way.

[Dagga Boy]

Well, this IS HK we are talking about....plenty of missteps have been made before. And before someone reminds me how the German export laws prevent them for being billionaires twenty times over, this is the same country which allows and even protects German firms to bribe other firms/entities/govs when doing business outside of Germany proper. The soul requirement is that the bribe amount must be claimed as an operating expense come tax time. So I would argue that a certain flexibility is definitely there. Where there's a will there's a way.

How about US import laws. May want to look at the GCA of 68. Also, if you do not believe that US gun companies would ever provide "incentives" to prospective buyers, you are also quite naive.

I certainly expect that the price will go up on HK products as necessary. You know,just like everything else. Believing that HK is going to raise the price of the VP9 several hundred dollars "just cause" is an interesting concept. I've been working with a company that sells products made in Europe for eight years.....and they have had regular minor price increases to maintain specific profit margins based on the economics at the time that affect multiple markets.

If you think that there will never be VP9's again and if they do show up, they will be several hundred dollars more expensive, I highly suggest buying a Glock.

[RJ]

That's some solid shooting for anyone, at any age, or any level of training! I may have to finally see what all this VP9 hype is about....a dude was running one at IDPA on Saturday. Looked very slick while shooting it. He did have more than a few stoppages, which was of interest to me. Regardless, the gun is a winner for sure.


Indeed.

Um, just to be clear, I meant "on" the B-8 target, as in, on the 8" 1/2 x 11" paper, not in the bull. :cool:

It was during the 400 drill of the week Sunday. I found it remarkable, because with my M&P, I found that half of my rounds were on target and the other half, well, I have no idea where they landed. This happened often enough that I found myself wondering, you know, is it the gun? I started reading here on p-f.com about the M&P full size 9mm accuracy issues, and ended up buying the VP9.

Although I'm no target shooter, and the concept of putting 10 rounds inside a 4" circle at 25 yards is not a feat I am likely to do in a self defense scenario. It did bother me that I did not have a gun that I could rely on consistently to evaluate and judge MY progress. With the VP9, I don't have that concern.

There is like NO WAY I am in the same league of shooting as you all; I am just beginning to realize I have no idea what I don't know about marksmanship.

Sorry for the diversion, I just wanted to clear that up. :)

[StraitR]

Makes sense to me, Rich. Although that group is not a the level of some, don't forget to view your results through mission application. If you're practicing to be a bullseye shooter, then you have reason for disappointment. If you're practicing for defensive purposes, then overlaying that target on a human will show some pretty effective shooting at 25 yards. Sure, you have room to grow, as I don't believe anyone can ever be "too accurate", but don't discount your current capabilities as they apply to the "big picture". In other words, well done.

[johncorey]

How about US import laws. May want to look at the GCA of 68. Also, if you do not believe that US gun companies would ever provide "incentives" to prospective buyers, you are also quite naive.

I certainly expect that the price will go up on HK products as necessary. You know,just like everything else. Believing that HK is going to raise the price of the VP9 several hundred dollars "just cause" is an interesting concept. I've been working with a company that sells products made in Europe for eight years.....and they have had regular minor price increases to maintain specific profit margins based on the economics at the time that affect multiple markets.



If you think that there will never be VP9's again and if they do show up, they will be several hundred dollars more expensive, I highly suggest buying a Glock.


nyeti,



I am aware that it takes two to tango, but the vast majority of people assume that the largest obstacles for HK offering products which one would assume to sell very well here, are the German Export Laws. I also have no doubts that US gun companies offer incentives to potential buyers, but the difference here is that the German Gov has a law on the books which allows for that which I stated. We do not have any equivalent here.

I never stated, nor do I believe that HK will raise the price several hundred dollars "just cause". As I stated, if there is an accompanying price increase come the spring, then I am certainly not privy to that information. Raising prices to keep in step with inflation/growth/current whatever is normal and expected from a consumers stand point.

I also never stated, nor do I believe that there will never be VP9's again. I did state that HK is turning the spigot off now/soon, and won't open it back up for the aforementioned models until the spring. I have heard that from enough vetted posts that I take it to be fact. We even have a solid thread on it here. If this is incorrect, then I'm sure someone with first hand knowledge would have chimed in by now.

My opinion still remains the same. If any potential buyer of a VP9 or VP40 is on the cusp, you may as well jump on the purchase now when they are to be had freely all week for mid $500s. A bird in the hand and all.

[johncorey]

Um, just to be clear, I meant "on" the B-8 target, as in, on the 8" 1/2 x 11" paper, not in the bull. :cool:

It was during the 400 drill of the week Sunday. I found it remarkable, because with my M&P, I found that half of my rounds were on target and the other half, well, I have no idea where they landed. This happened often enough that I found myself wondering, you know, is it the gun? I started reading here on p-f.com about the M&P full size 9mm accuracy issues, and ended up buying the VP9.

Although I'm no target shooter, and the concept of putting 10 rounds inside a 4" circle at 25 yards is not a feat I am likely to do in a self defense scenario. It did bother me that I did not have a gun that I could rely on consistently to evaluate and judge MY progress. With the VP9, I don't have that concern.

There is like NO WAY I am in the same league of shooting as you all; I am just beginning to realize I have no idea what I don't know about marksmanship.

Sorry for the diversion, I just wanted to clear that up. :)

What StraitR said.

[EVP]

I just picked up a vp9. I really have enjoyed the p30 so I have been meaning to pick up a vp9. Hopefully some more sight options start to become available.

On a side note, when I rented a vp9 and was attempting to do some malfunction stuff with spent cases( normally use snap caps) it would feed and camber them no problem. Now it does not matter to me if a gun will feed empty casings because it really is not applicable but it still is kinda impressive.

[StraitR]

Got a notification email at 3:25am that .156 notch rear sights are finally back in stock at 10-8. I've been waiting for months, get them while you can.

[breakingtime91]

Makes sense to me, Rich. Although that group is not a the level of some, don't forget to view your results through mission application. If you're practicing to be a bullseye shooter, then you have reason for disappointment. If you're practicing for defensive purposes, then overlaying that target on a human will show some pretty effective shooting at 25 yards. Sure, you have room to grow, as I don't believe anyone can ever be "too accurate", but don't discount your current capabilities as they apply to the "big picture". In other words, well done.

ya great job rich! While I shoot B8's for certain drills, i find I have more fun and success shooting a 8inch circle at 25 yards at a rapid pace. With that said, I will use a B8 to check my slow fire from time to time.. One of my favorite ways to practice cadence and shooting past "contact" distances is the 10 in 10 seconds at 10 yards. I then do 10 rounds at 15 yards in 12 seconds, 10 rounds at 20 in 14 seconds and, 5 rounds in 10 seconds at 25...

[Talionis]

I did state that HK is turning the spigot off now/soon, and won't open it back up for the aforementioned models until the spring. I have heard that from enough vetted posts that I take it to be fact. We even have a solid thread on it here. If this is incorrect, then I'm sure someone with first hand knowledge would have chimed in by now.



Not necessarily contradicting you on this, but I just received confirmation that my backup VP9 and a bunch of magazines will be arriving at my local LGS direct from HK on the first of October.

It's possible it is a gun they already had on hand, but I doubt it. I don't really know more than anyone else, and my circumstance may be a bit different from others since I am sponsored by HK and have priority on guns and equipment; but it does appear that they are still actively producing these guns, at least in some volume.

For reference, I got confirmation from my HK rep that my order was submitted yesterday.

[RJ]

Not necessarily contradicting you on this, but I just received confirmation that my backup VP9 and a bunch of magazines will be arriving at my local LGS direct from HK on the first of October.

It's possible it is a gun they already had on hand, but I doubt it. I don't really know more than anyone else, and my circumstance may be a bit different from others since I am sponsored by HK and have priority on guns and equipment; but it does appear that they are still actively producing these guns, at least in some volume.

For reference, I got confirmation from my HK rep that my order was submitted yesterday.

It might give a lead on production status at HK if you post the first three of your s/n...recent production guns should be 05xxxx, if I am reading recent postings of s/n's right...

[Talionis]

I'll be happy to do so when I get my mitts on it.

[YVK]

Let us know how you and the VP9 do this weekend, and best of luck!

[breakingtime91]

G&R has vp9s in stock.

[dookie1481]

Easily one of the best posts on this forum. Well-written, concise but not ambiguous. Cited experiences and not supposition.

[johncorey]

Not necessarily contradicting you on this, but I just received confirmation that my backup VP9 and a bunch of magazines will be arriving at my local LGS direct from HK on the first of October.

It's possible it is a gun they already had on hand, but I doubt it. I don't really know more than anyone else, and my circumstance may be a bit different from others since I am sponsored by HK and have priority on guns and equipment; but it does appear that they are still actively producing these guns, at least in some volume.

For reference, I got confirmation from my HK rep that my order was submitted yesterday.

The fireside chatter out there is that the mothership has/will be turning the spigot off in Oberndorf. So however many VP9s, Vp40s and P30SKs made it onto our shores prior to, is more than likely where the current stock is coming from. There are enough distributors sitting on plenty to last longer than some on Pro mentioned. Especially VP9s. I doubt that your status as one of the Initiated will ever leave you wanting and wishing into the HK fountain!

[Crusader8207]

Got a notification email at 3:25am that .156 notch rear sights are finally back in stock at 10-8. I've been waiting for months, get them while you can.

What front sight are you running with the 10-8 rear sight?

[StraitR]

Using the 10-8 Fiber optic for now.

[Crusader8207]

Using the 10-8 Fiber optic for now.

Ok thanks.

[OnionsAndDragons]

So... I just picked up a VP9 last night. Unused but 2nd-hand from a fellow that just got a new job and doesn't have time to shoot right now. Can't wait to take it to the range and run some comparison drills against my p30 and G19 on Wednesday. I'm super-stoked.

The dude bought it when the market had a decent saturation of them, and said he got to choose from 5-7 examples at the store. The trigger on this one feels much closer to my PPQ than the previous examples I've coon-fingered. :)

[rdtompki]

These threads are incredibly valuable even the slight tangents pulling in very good knowledge and information. VP-9s are out in California unless you want to pay $$$ for "used" - lots of speculative purchasing prior to the expiration of SSE. Still, as a soon to be CC permit holder I'm good with my choice of an H&K P2000 LEM in 9mm. I wanted a safe trigger and one as far from our competition 1911s as possible. I've really come to appreciate the value of thumb on the hammer when re-holstering. And it's darn accurate once you get used to the cover sight picture. Would love to replace our few remaining M&Ps with VP-9s if only that were possible.

[Talionis]

It might give a lead on production status at HK if you post the first three of your s/n...recent production guns should be 05xxxx, if I am reading recent postings of s/n's right...

Here's a datapoint for you Rich. My backup VP9 arrived at my LGS today. It has the most refined trigger break I've felt on a VP9 yet, but more to the point, the serial number is 063xxx.


YVK, the match didn't go as well as I hoped, but about as well as I expected. I didn't win, but came away with first master in SSP. That's what I get for transitioning right before a match, and not bothering to sort out ammo beforehand (tumbling bullets are inaccurate, go figure).

[RJ]

Here's a datapoint for you Rich. My backup VP9 arrived at my LGS today. It has the most refined trigger break I've felt on a VP9 yet, but more to the point, the serial number is 063xxx.



Very cool. My BF datecode VP9 044xxx was bought in March. So it looks like if they are up to 063xxx, they did pretty well for HK in terms of sales figures, right?

[ralph]

Very cool. My BF datecode VP9 044xxx was bought in March. So it looks like if they are up to 063xxx, they did pretty well for HK in terms of sales figures, right?

Yeah, I think HK did better than they expected with the VP series so far, I'm waiting to see what they do with a .45, and I'm really hoping that they don't listen to the HK fanbois over at HK pro, and come out with a VP9sk instead of a VP9c, They make a VP9c, something about the size of a P-2000/g19, that uses already existing P-2000 mags, I think those would sell really well, especially if they can keep the price point close to glock's..

[psalms144.1]

Yeah, I think HK did better than they expected with the VP series so far, I'm waiting to see what they do with a .45, and I'm really hoping that they don't listen to the HK fanbois over at HK pro, and come out with a VP9sk instead of a VP9c, They make a VP9c, something about the size of a P-2000/g19, that uses already existing P-2000 mags, I think those would sell really well, especially if they can keep the price point close to glock's..As much as I take everything over there with a grain of salt, if I read the "insider information" from a couple weeks back correctly, we're going to see VP9sk and VP40sk at SHOT (or shortly thereafter). No word on any plans for a VP9/40c, or VP45 anything...

[KPD]

I was issued a VP9 a few months ago but just got around to firing it yesterday.
I wish I had done so sooner.
My only real complaint is that the grip is more round than I am used to and it caused me to present the gun a little left. Nothing that can't be overcome and isn't a big deal.

A great little pistol!

[Cincinnatus]

I was issued a VP9 a few months ago but just got around to firing it yesterday.
I wish I had done so sooner.
My only real complaint is that the grip is more round than I am used to and it caused me to present the gun a little left. Nothing that can't be overcome and isn't a big deal.

A great little pistol!

Try swapping the side grip panels into different combinations.

[JBP55]

Yeah, I think HK did better than they expected with the VP series so far, I'm waiting to see what they do with a .45, and I'm really hoping that they don't listen to the HK fanbois over at HK pro, and come out with a VP9sk instead of a VP9c, They make a VP9c, something about the size of a P-2000/g19, that uses already existing P-2000 mags, I think those would sell really well, especially if they can keep the price point close to glock's..

All they have to do is reduce the height of the frame as the slide/barrel is already G19 size.

[YVK]

and not bothering to sort out ammo beforehand (tumbling bullets are inaccurate, go figure).

You're supposed to put some powder in them, you know?

I saw the results. For an immediate result after a switch from a 40 oz gun with a sweetest trigger in existence, that's pretty darn good. Steve and Zack are a formidable competition but they don't have an unconditional support of HK fanboys of the world, and HK fanboys is a very special force to reckon with.

Seriously, I have no doubt you'll do well with it.

[Patrin]

These threads are incredibly valuable even the slight tangents pulling in very good knowledge and information. VP-9s are out in California unless you want to pay $$$ for "used" - lots of speculative purchasing prior to the expiration of SSE. Still, as a soon to be CC permit holder I'm good with my choice of an H&K P2000 LEM in 9mm. I wanted a safe trigger and one as far from our competition 1911s as possible. I've really come to appreciate the value of thumb on the hammer when re-holstering. And it's darn accurate once you get used to the cover sight picture. Would love to replace our few remaining M&Ps with VP-9s if only that were possible.

Great to hear, bud.

Since posting I've shot another perfect 300 score on the FAM PPC and a 298 tonight...with my VP9.

I'm at 2300 rounds now and she's running great.

[ralph]

As much as I take everything over there with a grain of salt, if I read the "insider information" from a couple weeks back correctly, we're going to see VP9sk and VP40sk at SHOT (or shortly thereafter). No word on any plans for a VP9/40c, or VP45 anything...

Damn, That kinda kills it for me... I've no use for a SK anything.. P-2000/G19 size is about as small as I'm willing to go.. Well, I guess I'll sit back and wait, My grey framed G19 is working fine after I got it straightened out with some help from Apex Tactical.. I have 2 VP9's, and no doubt they're great pistols. Still, the G19 is easier to carry concealed for me, and when shooting both side by side, the times were close, but the sights come back down on target for me with the G19, with the VP9 they're usually off to the left/right and a correction is needed before pulling off the next shot.

[ralph]

All they have to do is reduce the height of the frame as the slide/barrel is already G19 size.

There was a thread over at HKpro, and possibly here, where a guy chopped a VP9 to use P-2000 mags, I thought it turned out pretty well, and last I heard there were no problems with it. I'm thinking it's just a matter of time before someone offer a chopping service for VP9's..

[JBP55]

I will probably purchase a VP9 SK as soon as they are available.

[JBP55]

There was a thread over at HKpro, and possibly here, where a guy chopped a VP9 to use P-2000 mags, I thought it turned out pretty well, and last I heard there were no problems with it. I'm thinking it's just a matter of time before someone offer a chopping service for VP9's..

I will wait on the VP9 SK rather than chop one of my VP pistols.

[ralph]

I will wait on the VP9 SK rather than chop one of my VP pistols.

Oh, I understand.. If you read the thread, the VP9 was chopped to a "c" length. That took maybe a 1/2" off the grip. For somebody that wants a "VP9c" this may be the only route available for awhile, as it's beginning to look like HK is going to go with a SK... I've also read where HK is going to raise prices when VP9 production resumes,(I, like anyone else have no real idea if that's true) That, IMO, would be a foolish move. While the VP9 has a lot of things going for it, one of those things was price..it was very reasonable considering what you were getting in return. Raise the price by say $100 or so, and a lot of potential customers are going to walk right by and stop down at the Glock/M&P end of the counter... And for a company who's carrying a $300million euro debt, raising prices in a already flooded market is a foolish thing to do.

[LSP972]

And for a company who's carrying a $300million euro debt, raising prices in a already flooded market is a foolish thing to do.

Over on HKPro, a fellow who was a 20+ year HK employee and still has hooks into the company stated that the "new" management team for HK was basically more of the same; his exact words were "re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic."

So I wouldn't expect any brilliant moves. If half of the reports concerning their debt is true (and the financial gutting of the firm by the previous owners is apparently well-documented), I honestly don't see how they can remain viable; especially with the German government on their ass now for the supposed illegal sales to Mexico and other bastions of democracy.

Whatever; I've got multiple examples of my favorite HK pistols, and a few key parts. I've kept most of my Glocks as a fall-back 'platform', and in fact may start carrying the G43 here shortly. Spent the day walking the mall with the wife and grandkids, and my hips are killing me. Not sure whether I'm falling apart faster than I thought, or its the weight of a full-size piece/spare magazine. But something has to give…


.

[ralph]

Over on HKPro, a fellow who was a 20+ year HK employee and still has hooks into the company stated that the "new" management team for HK was basically more of the same; his exact words were "re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic."

So I wouldn't expect any brilliant moves. If half of the reports concerning their debt is true (and the financial gutting of the firm by the previous owners is apparently well-documented), I honestly don't see how they can remain viable; especially with the German government on their ass now for the supposed illegal sales to Mexico and other bastions of democracy.

Whatever; I've got multiple examples of my favorite HK pistols, and a few key parts. I've kept most of my Glocks as a fall-back 'platform', and in fact may start carrying the G43 here shortly. Spent the day walking the mall with the wife and grandkids, and my hips are killing me. Not sure whether I'm falling apart faster than I thought, or its the weight of a full-size piece/spare magazine. But something has to give…


.

I read that as well, and I couldn't agree more. Like you I've stocked up on parts that are known to break, and in the case of my VP9's I bought two.. My reasoning being since nothing but the mags interchange with anything else HK makes, and due to it being a more complex pistol in terms of internal parts, I figured I'd go with the "two is one" mentality, This is one area where Glock shines, in as much as internal parts pretty much interchange...

[JBP55]

I read that as well, and I couldn't agree more. Like you I've stocked up on parts that are known to break, and in the case of my VP9's I bought two.. My reasoning being since nothing but the mags interchange with anything else HK makes, and due to it being a more complex pistol in terms of internal parts, I figured I'd go with the "two is one" mentality, This is one area where Glock shines, in as much as internal parts pretty much interchange...


Using the 2 is 1 mentality I have 3.

[Patrin]

Some data points...used my VP9 trainer in a CSAT course this last week. A lot of rain, some mud, no cleaning and 400 rounds with training FMJ...no issues...she ran like a top.

I have 3K between three VP9's and no malfunctions to report...just perfect function.

I have 600 rounds of FMJ and HST through my VP40 and it's running perfect.

[JodyH]

especially with the German government on their ass now
Just a guess, but with VW getting kicked in the nuts and the Syrian invasion of Germany I'm betting that the anti-industry climate in Germany does an about face.
Germany better start propping up every business they can, somebody has to pay for all the free shit they keep promising.

I don't see H&K going away any time soon, the business may be in financial trouble but the brand, the manufacturing facilities and the intellectual property still has a lot of value (kind of like Colt).
And like the US Gov did with Colt, the German Gov will toss H&K just enough military contract money to keep the doors open.
Having a domestic military arms manufacturer is just too strategically important.

[LSP972]

Having a domestic military arms manufacturer is just too strategically important.

Yes; but do the liberals in the German government understand that? Some of those guys & gals, from what I've read, make our liberals look positively hawkish.

Whatever; I hope you're right.

But I'm still gonna buy a few more parts… just in case.;)

.

[Street Survival]

Can anyone share their sage knowledge of specifically what extra parts to purchase and where? Thank You!!!

[JodyH]

Can anyone share their sage knowledge of specifically what extra parts to purchase and where? Thank You!!!
So far I haven't heard of anything that is an issue.
I'd buy an extra recoil spring assembly or two, a "wound S" trigger bar spring and maybe a couple of trigger return springs if I really, really wanted a spare parts box.
Direct from H&K service will be the cheapest purchase option, but you may have to wait for them to get something in stock.
If you want it now and are willing to pay a "now premium" HKParts.net has everything in stock and ships fast.

[LSP972]

Can anyone share their sage knowledge of specifically what extra parts to purchase and where? Thank You!!!

I've been owning/shooting HK pistols since 2004, and have been alert to issues on various fora. The only part I have heard of that breaks with any repetitiveness (i.e., more than once in a blue moon), is the trigger return spring.

I would (and do, in my stash) include a couple of trigger bar plungers and trigger bar plunger springs for your specific pistol, simply because those two parts can get away from you during a detail-strip if you're not paying attention.

Some of the HK techs, depending upon who you speak with, recommend replacing springs between 10K-15K rounds. That's ALL of the springs. AFAIK, the HK45 and HK45C are the only pistols specifically warranted for a set number of rounds (20K). The 10K-15K figure is based on individual perceptions of those who work on these pistols; which is good enough for me.

When my "training" HK45C was approaching 15K rounds through it earlier this year, I purchased and replaced every spring in the pistol except for the "shaped" spring which powers the slide lock lever. I think that one needs a bit of finesse, and not having any HK-specific armorer training I elected to leave it alone. I didn't replace the mag catch spring either, but every other spring in the gun is new now; including the recoil spring assembly. Best to replace that as a unit; if it isn't put together just right, it will disassemble itself and tie the pistol up.

Jody's comments on purchasing parts is 100% correct. HK/USA and HKParts.net are your two best sources.

.