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View Full Version : Clear and concise verbal commands.



Paul
08-17-2015, 10:18 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv8wWGUl1N8

Version 1. The suspect in the video was wanted on a warrant. Suspect does not comply with officers' commands on felony stop, exits the vehicle with his hands behind his back, and eventually works up the courage to point a cell phone using a two hand firing position, at the officers. Suspect is shot multiple times. It appears that the suspect was trying to commit suicide by cop.

Version 2. Police tell man to show his hands and then attempt to murder man for doing exactly as ordered!

There's a big difference between "show me your hands" and "slowly put your hands in the air over your head". One's fairly clear on what expected and one requires a bit of uncommon sense. Just a little food for thought. The officer giving the majority of commands uses "Show me hands" almost exclusively, the suspect did comply. The suspect's intent is fairly clear, but there's no arguing against that he did exactly as told.

UNM1136
08-19-2015, 04:08 PM
After running lots of sims, my old agency started teaching at all levels that the first command is "Police, don't move". Additional commands are required to be clear directions. "Put your hands on your head", "Turn your back to me". And contact/cover still applies.

Assuming that the warrant is a Felony Warrant, a good street dog would have been invaluable here, but I am always finding ways to use a canine, to justify to my chain of command the need to purchase another one.

pat

voodoo_man
08-19-2015, 04:13 PM
While "show me your hands" may be argued in court, it does not mean "show me your hands in the manner which looks like a gun" or "show me what is in your hands" it means, to a reasonable person who is being stopped by the police to mean putting hands into the air.

"Police, don't move" may make them stop doing what they are doing, but they won't show their hands or put them up, though it should to a reasonable person.

I have had great success with "throw your hands up" or "arms up" since most people know this from movies and/or have been robbed (or robbed people) so its a pre-installed mechanism to the people I deal with on a daily basis.

I have always been taught "clear and concise" does not mean the same thing to me as it will to someone else so defaulting to a "explain it to them like their 5" works better.

Poconnor
08-19-2015, 05:23 PM
Years ago I attended a class at HK and they suggested a "surrender ritual" . The idea was to teach a set of commands and a specific order they are used. a SOP for Felony arrests. It's a good idea to get everyone on the same page. Never could get anyone interested

UNM1136
08-19-2015, 06:21 PM
While "show me your hands" may be argued in court, it does not mean "show me your hands in the manner which looks like a gun" or "show me what is in your hands" it means, to a reasonable person who is being stopped by the police to mean putting hands into the air.

"Police, don't move" may make them stop doing what they are doing, but they won't show their hands or put them up, though it should to a reasonable person.

I have had great success with "throw your hands up" or "arms up" since most people know this from movies and/or have been robbed (or robbed people) so its a pre-installed mechanism to the people I deal with on a daily basis.

I have always been taught "clear and concise" does not mean the same thing to me as it will to someone else so defaulting to a "explain it to them like their 5" works better.

Excellent points. The reason the agency standardized on "police, don't move" was because when running sims with non-police role players, the whole "show me your hands ended in many shootings, particularly when subjects were holding objects. The cops were so amped up that as soon as the hand became visible and it was not empty many people who should know better had slack out of the triggers and were pushed over the edge. "Police don't move" was decided on to 1) give a clear command that is easily obeyed, and 2) be a bit of a tunnel vision breaker to give the communicating cop time to think- if the suspect is compliant. I agree, I tell someone "police, don't move" the only thing I have communicated is my role in the circus, and that I don't want them to move. If they are compliant at that point I can think carefully about how I want them to move and how to communicate it. If they are noncompliant, and still a potential threat, I can try other tracts, several of which are mentioned here, to try to get that compliance. Don't get me wrong, that guy was a potential threat indicated by his non-compliance, but he had not taken that step to yet where lethal force was the "A" answer until he moved. It seems to me that might be the difference between "actual resistance" required for justifiable homicide and "misfortune" as used in excusable homicide, but I am not an attorney, just a street cop that is a lot closer to retirement than my academy.

WAAAAY too man cops get caught in a verbal loop where they apparently think that what they need to be doing right then is yelling "show me your hands" repeatedly, and their brain is turned off and not processing the issue. Not saying that is what happened here, but I have seen it enough in my career. While anything said can be subjectively evaluated in hindsight, being a stuck record (giving away my age?) and not saying anything else can also be subjectively evaluated in a negative light, even though the officer was "just trying to get compliance" with his instructions. I am sure all of us have had to change languages or deal with the deaf, mentallly disabled, or incoherent folks. If you are reverting to the script in your head when things don't go right, you may miss other opportunities to accomplish what you need to.

pat

UNM1136
08-19-2015, 06:27 PM
Years ago I attended a class at HK and they suggested a "surrender ritual" . The idea was to teach a set of commands and a specific order they are used. a SOP for Felony arrests. It's a good idea to get everyone on the same page. Never could get anyone interested

Since it is from HK, it has to be tacticool.:cool: I think that like many concepts it gives increases familiarity with what is going on, but I contend that like many SOPs, you cannot always be bound to them slavishly, and you have to be able to think and adapt what you are doing to your situation. This is also something that comes with experience. I have seen and heard of the craziest calls where the "wrong" answer was safer and better than the textbook answer. Just thought of another one to add to the roll call stories thread.

pat

Poconnor
08-22-2015, 07:51 AM
I understand what you mean by SOPs. My take was always this is a way to do. Not the only way, just a way that has the least fleas. We all know about training scars. As an FTO I believe in department wide SOPs . They are not policy. But a way to do the job.

Alpha Sierra
08-22-2015, 08:46 AM
How about when there's TWO cops yelling contradictory stuff at the top of their lungs?

voodoo_man
08-22-2015, 01:26 PM
How about when there's TWO cops yelling contradictory stuff at the top of their lungs?

Lacking proper training.

Paul
08-22-2015, 03:44 PM
Here's a good example of why establishing some sort of command SOP might be a good idea.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_QHFc7cv1I

I get that the outcome was pretty much predetermined.

An Officer stops a robbery suspect, and tells the suspect to walk over to his squad car and put his hands on the hood of the car. Things go south and the suspect starts to back up. The officer tells the suspect to "sir stop". The suspect puts his right hand in his pocket. The officer tells the suspect "I will fucking kill you!" with no explanation given for what he's going to fucking kill the suspect for. Suspect draws and points, what turns out to be a pistol, at the officer, and the officer and his partner shoot the suspect. It's a good shooting, but had the suspect pulled out a wallet, cell phone, or just made a furtive gesture with an empty hand, that would not bode well for the officers. There's a very clear threat against the suspect's life and a total lack of verbal commands. The assault on police case is going to tough to prosecute, if it goes to trial, it's not going to be hard to find at least one juror that's going to be sympathetic to a self defense claim.

There are times that threatening to kill some if they engage in certain conduct is acceptable and necessary, it's inflammatory language and needs to be used sparingly. Whether it would have made a difference or not, attempting to follow some sort of formatted stop would look better on camera.

Paul
08-22-2015, 04:04 PM
How about when there's TWO cops yelling contradictory stuff at the top of their lungs?

It's not a surprise and the guilty officers usually exhibit the behavior on a regular basis. Officers that do this are what I politely call "professional interjectors". They love to insert themselves into other officer's business and ask stupid questions. They interrupt interviews and obstruct radio traffic in critical incidents. There are times that you may have interrupt and get pertinent info, but there are guys that make a habit of it.

Some of it's training and it's also a supervision issue. No one wants to put on their big boy pants and fix the problem (and the supervisors that do, usually get shut down), and then it becomes a really big problem and we wonder what just happened?

Chuck Haggard
08-24-2015, 10:22 AM
The biggest issue I have with the very common "show me your hands" default scream is that you just gave the bad guy permission to move, that falls into the area of "very poor tactics" IMHO

Alpha Sierra
08-24-2015, 12:20 PM
Lacking proper training.
What is the citizen being confronted with this to do?

Do what cop A says and be shot by cop B? Do what cop B says and get shot by A?

KevinB
08-24-2015, 12:33 PM
What is the citizen being confronted with this to do?

Do what cop A says and be shot by cop B? Do what cop B says and get shot by A?

AS: Not move - and ask which they want you to do. Also when you do move - be very slow and deliberate.

Back to the original video;
With at least 4 officers there, a 40mm LL would have been nice to have - as they could have tuned him up with that when he was unresponsive and hands where still behind his back.
Contact officer should be the only one giving commands - it's simple. BUT at the end of the day, the suspect made his own choice, and chose to present a threat (real or implied) to the officers.

BehindBlueI's
08-24-2015, 01:58 PM
Just recalling something from my initial training in the academy. FATS simulators were still the rage and I went through several scenarios were the bad guy had a gun in his hand and it turned into a shoot/don't shoot scenario. Then I had a scenario where the bad guy pulls open his shirt and there's a gun in his waistband. Well, what did I yell at him? Same thing as the others "Drop the gun!". What's the issue? If he'd moved to comply, I'd have shot him. He wasn't holding the gun like the others were, but I'd defaulted. Powerful lesson, and one I kept with me on the streets. I did use "show me your hands" and will continue to do so as appropriate, but there is no one size fits all command. If the situation is evolving, so is the response.