Interesting observations HK vs SIG: a Police Rangemaster's Perspective

[gtmtnbiker98]

Sidearm History:
From 1989 to 2004 my department issued the SIG P226 chambered in 9mm. In 2004 we transitioned to the SIG P229R chambered in .357 SIG. In 2007, our P229R's were converted to .40 S&W due to ammo costs. In 2013 our department adopted the HK P30 lite LEM chambered in 9mm. Our current issued duty load is Winchester Ranger T 124gr +P and our range ammunition is Winchester Ranger 124gr NATO.

Given our relative brief history with the HK P30, I have recently come to the following conclusion. When placed in an officers holster and exposed to the day-to-day elements associated with police work, the SIG Sauer pistol is a more reliable and forgiving platform when directly compared to our HK P30's. This is a departmental observation, not a blanket declaration. This is my opinion based on 19-years as a police officer and several thousand observed rounds down range.

I conduct quarterly training sessions and qualifications annually for my department and each officer fires between 250-300 rounds of 9mm and another 150 rounds of 5.56 per quarter. Given our area of the State, I would venture to say that we shoot more than any other department in SW Ohio. Since our adoption of the HK P30, I've witnessed a large increase in stoppages.

When conducting a post mortem of the stoppage, two things have been found with great regularity. The lack of lubrication and a poor grip. I never witnessed so many consistent stoppages with the SIG as we do with the HK P30. All of our HK pistols have an estimated 2,000 rounds of 124gr ammunition through them. The most commonly observed malfunction is a failure to extract.

Although the HK pistols function fine while dirty, they must be lubricated in order to function as designed (shocking I know). Back in 2013, I would have never believed that I'd be making this statement, but given a sample of 20 HK P30's and carried by both male and female officers from differing backgrounds over a period of two years, the P30 is not as forgiving as the SIG P226/P229 when a lack of maintenance and varied skill sets are at issue.

Now we are faced for the first time I might add with the requirement to routinely spot check every duty weapon to ensure proper lubrication and maintenance. Should we already be doing this? Yes. Have we had to in the past? No.

[GJM]

Wow, this is very surprising.

I wonder if this is mostly a function of weight, with lighter weight pistols being more sensitive to grip than heavier pistols?

[Dagga Boy]

Weirdly, that was the exact opposite of what my old place found. Granted it was P220 vs. USP, but similar.

I would highly suggest briefing reminders from range staff and briefing inspections if possible. May be a weather difference or something, be we found the SIGs really needed to be run wet.

[entropy]

Interesting.

Although not a range master, it's been my observation while attending quals that the USPc also suffers from this exact same issue. This has been over a period of about 12 years now. Invariably when one goes down at a qual, it appears to belong to a "non gun guy". In the beginning it meant a trip to the armorer. Now, the RO's have a can of CLP handy. I've noticed over the years that mine does require pretty routine field stripping and lubing.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Interesting.

Although not a range master, it's been my observation while attending quals that the USPc also suffers from this exact same issue. This has been over a period of about 12 years now. Invariably when one goes down at a qual, it appears to belong to a "non gun guy". In the beginning it meant a trip to the armorer. Now, the RO's have a can of CLP handy. I've noticed over the years that mine does require pretty routine field stripping and lubing.Unfortunately, I'll be doing the same regarding the lube.

[YVK]

If the day is going slow, everyone is bored and there's not much fun, you can post this on the HKPRO and the fireworks will begin.

[JTQ]

I wonder if it is actually the same level of lube between the SIG and HK or if the folks get the "new poly gun" and think, "hey, I don't have to lube this as much/often as I had to do with the old SIG". SIG's always seem to have a reputation for needing lots of lube (I'm pretty sure every gun person, at least SIG person has seen this article... http://grayguns.com/lubrication-of-sig-sauer-pistol-rails/ ) and maybe the folks let their guard down concerning maintenance/lube with the new "super gun"?



0

[CCT125US]

No better way to ask..... do you have a standard lube? I have been using Wilson Combat oil on my v1 since the beggining. It gets several drops every couple thousand rounds. Been doing that for 7K. I find it stays put and doesn't burn off.

I also think I heard some Teutonic gnomes faint.

[GJM]

This thread caused me to grab my bottle of Lucas ED oil, and go check my wife's carry guns -- the G27 and 29. Both needed some lube and the dust balls shooed away. I looked at my newish P2000 .40, and it was still well lubed, in the condition it came from the factory. Not sure how old the HK pistols in service are, but I wonder if they came lubed from the factory, and many were not lubed since? My #1 USP .45 came lubed, but after a few months of carry and shooting, it was pretty dry when I lubed it a few weeks back.

[Beat Trash]

If the day is going slow, everyone is bored and there's not much fun, you can post this on the HKPRO and the fireworks will begin.

That would be amusing to watch...

HKPRO, the only web site I have every been censored on. I made too many posts within my first few days there. (I had the flu and was stuck at home.) I told the moderator to remove me from their membership after his less than professional PM.

[JBP55]

If the day is going slow, everyone is bored and there's not much fun, you can post this on the HKPRO and the fireworks will begin.

I have seen negative HK threads deleted on that forum.

[Symmetry]

Very interesting. My agency has used Sigs since the early 1990s in 9mm, .40, and .45. The 9mm versions have been stellar, despite many of the poorly maintained ones. The .40s have been pretty decent too, although there is an observable increase in wear and tear. The P220 .45?.......the ones that run well are those carried by experienced gun nuts that are religious about maintenance. We don't have a lot of Cohen era Sigs in the inventory, most of ours are pre Cohen.

[HCM]

Weirdly, that was the exact opposite of what my old place found. Granted it was P220 vs. USP, but similar.

I would highly suggest briefing reminders from range staff and briefing inspections if possible. May be a weather difference or something, be we found the SIGs really needed to be run wet.

Nyeti's experience mirrors mine. We ran HK USP compact 40 LEM's from about 1999 through 2008ish. In 2005 our agency adopted the Sigg P229 are DAK also in 40. The transition began in 2006 and ran through 2008 with the last issued HK's being phased out by March 2009.

The USP compacts ran fine with minimal lubrication, similar to a Glock ( metal frame rail sections and barrel / locking area.). We also ran some fairly hot 155 grain ammo which may have helped cycling.The biggest issue and cause of malfunctions we have seen and continue to see with the SIG is dry guns / failing to ensure it's run wet.

We have many officers who transitioned from the USP compact or started carrying the P 2000 in the border patrol and were used to running their gun with minimal or no lubrication. It's been an ongoing process getting them to ensure they're running the guns wet.

[Beat Trash]

Interesting observation.

Yes, I would venture to say that you are shooting a bit more than us. I'm in the SW portion of Ohio also. We shoot an average of about 800 - 1,000 rounds of 9mm per officer, per year. Would love to see everyone shoot quarterly, but training/qualification twice a year for everyone, along with the various other training sessions, take up about 50 out of a 52 week year for the Range facility. Patrol Rifle Trained officers shoot about 400-500 rds per officer per year. Our complement is down to about 1,050 officers from where we were when we first transitioned to the M&P9. But with that staffing level, the ammo bill is getting higher and higher.

We don't use the Sig or the HK. We've been issuing the M&P9 since it was first invented. The one positive thing I can say about the M&P9 is that I've seen some dry guns function. But then the Range staff really push the concept of oiling the guns prior to training.

The lube that our agency uses for their guns is Mobile 1 synthetic.

I am not doubting your observations. I will say that I would have expected the exact opposite to be true in that the HK would perform better when carried by officers who are not shooting enthusiasts than the Sig P series.

I wonder if the HK VP9 would fare as well?

Anyone have any points of contact for the USBP firearms training staff? I wonder if they saw the same thing with their HK P2000's?

[HCM]

A couple of my coworkers, including the guy who took over our local firearms program when I rotated out are former US BP Academy firearms instructors. Their observations with the P 2000 versus the SIG mirror what I've seen with the USP compact versus the SIG and what Nyeti saw with the 45's.

[TGS]

Anyone have any points of contact for the USBP firearms training staff? I wonder if they saw the same thing with their HK P2000's?

Maybe 5pins will chime in, he might have some info.

[Dagga Boy]

What lube also tends to be a huge issue. Your "non gun cops" also tend to be the same folks who love WD40. I traced a failure to fire the first round in an OIS at our neighboring agency to the officer using WD40 on his SiG (which they will also deny when questioned about).

One thing I liked about good old CLP was we had lots of it and it was cheap. We kept so much around that we encouraged people to steal it from work. Also, we found the hard way that some "super lubes" are not compatible with some guns. We had a guy in a Federal Task force and using the stuff the FEds were using (I "think" it was Mp Pro 7) locked up the firing pin in his issued USP 45. We cleaned out the internals and re lubed with break free and never had another issue with the gun.

Realistically, I don't think you can ever run too much lube......even though I tend to be a big violator these days. When I was working, my guns were always run wet, especially the SIGs.

HK Pro.....I simply gave up. I could not take one more post of VP9 Disorder. The "HK QC sucks, my VP9 barrel tilts up when it's locked open" was too much.

[LSP552]

Can you share any general performance perspectives about qualifications and training? In general, reliability aside, were there significant performance differences between the SIG & HK?

[HCM]

Can you share any general performance perspectives about qualifications and training? In general, reliability aside, were there significant performance differences between the SIG & HK?

The SIG is an easier gun for the average non-gun officer who only shoots 800 to 1,000 rounds a year to shoot accurately and qualify with. Largely due to the weight and the consistency in the trigger pull. For those who put the time in and learn to run it I definitely think the LEM is better than the DAK. You can also run a V2 LEM much faster than a DAK with comparable ammunition. The DAK is SLOW but it's an ok "people management " trigger and for agency quals it's fast enough. And the wait would likely be less of a factor in 9 mm versus 40s.

[RJ]

If the day is going slow, everyone is bored and there's not much fun, you can post this on the HKPRO and the fireworks will begin.

Word.

I bought my HK because it was a good service pistol I could use for USPSA, and I kind of hoped it would group better than my M&P. I certainly was not prepared for the arrogant derpitude that emanates from certain members at that site. Some of the guys are ok, don't get me wrong.

But it almost seems like to some HK enthusiasts, "owning an HK" is much, much more important than the "using an HK".

But, I digress.



To the OP's point: (this from a newbie, remember) When you say "run a gun wet", can one of the SMEs elaborate please?

Say I have my Fireclean, and I'm done getting all the carbon and gunk out, etc. I've run the bronze brush, the synthetic brush and bore snake through and am ready to lube the gun.

The Operators Manual says light lube on the barrel, rails, etc. Is that considered "wet"?

TIA...rich

[HCM]

But it almost seems like to some HK enthusiasts, "owning an HK" is much, much more important than the "using an HK".


To the OP's point: (this from a newbie, remember) When you say "run a gun wet", can one of the SMEs elaborate please?



Regarding HK PRO, it's been my experience that gun enthusiasts tend to fall into one of four categories: shooters, gun owners, collectors, and what I generally call "gun fondlers". HK PRO has a very high ratio of gun fondlers.

Regarding running the gun "wet " I would generally described it as enough that you can see and feel lubrication on the points which require such as frame rails barrel hood etc. if it is dripping out of the gun or splattering your glasses when you shoot it's probably a little too much.

[HCM]

To the OP, just a shot in the dark here but I've previously heard HK P 30s require a "breaking in" with service ammo before they will run with lower powered 115 grain range ammo. I know y'all are shooting plus P124 grain, but I don't recall any USP's or P 2000's requiring a break-in to run. Could this be something unique to the P 30?

Are there any large-scale users of the P 30? I believe there are some European police forces using the P 30 L, possibly Norway?

[Dagga Boy]

My SIGs when working would have lube visible just coming out of the rails. Literally, externally visible. Equally, my AR's were also run very wet.

The P30's are run extensively in Germany and in other places in Europe.

[LSP552]

My SIGs when working would have lube visible just coming out of the rails. Literally, externally visible. Equally, my AR's were also run very wet.

The P30's are run extensively in Germany and in other places in Europe.

I'm well out of the loop now, but at one time European LE was much less gun oriented in training and use than the average US agency. I'd be curious to hear the results from a large agency that actually conducts high volume training. I wonder if many agencies allow officers to carry their weapons off-duty or are they generally turned in at the end of shift?

[JTQ]

To the OP's point: (this from a newbie, remember) When you say "run a gun wet", can one of the SMEs elaborate please?

Say I have my Fireclean, and I'm done getting all the carbon and gunk out, etc. I've run the bronze brush, the synthetic brush and bore snake through and am ready to lube the gun.

The Operators Manual says light lube on the barrel, rails, etc. Is that considered "wet"?

TIA...rich
I'm not an SME or an HK guy, but I linked the SIG lube article earlier. Here's Wilson Combat lubing up a 1911. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4D2mRlDo48

That's how I lube my guns.

[jondoe297]

My SIGs when working would have lube visible just coming out of the rails. Literally, externally visible. Equally, my AR's were also run very wet.



That's pretty much how I roll. I've been given friendly ribbing about it at work, but they don't ever see my stuff choking on the range.

[RJ]

I'm not an SME or an HK guy, but I linked the SIG lube article earlier. Here's Wilson Combat lubing up a 1911. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4D2mRlDo48

That's how I lube my guns.

Thanks, very interesting.

[Jeep]

That's pretty much how I roll. I've been given friendly ribbing about it at work, but they don't ever see my stuff choking on the range.

So long as you aren't working around a lot of dust & dirt, it's hard to see a problem with lubing (or greasing) them that way. My experience is that dirty guns tend to need more lube than clean ones (though perhaps not with Glocks as much).

[navyman8903]

I ran my P30, P30L and P226 MK25 equally lubricated without issues. All 3 never had a single issue. I've got about 4500ish rounds through the HK platforms and 1500 rounds through the MK25. Not properly lubricating any firearm will cause problems. I don't think any pistol can run free of that requirement.....even glocks.

The most I ran both a Glock 19 and P30 V3 9mm without cleaning was 800 rounds. That was going in with proper lubrication before shooting. My only honest question is why people don't clean their guns after a range trip or after time on duty.

[TGS]

My only honest question is why people don't clean their guns after a range trip or after time on duty.

Hahahahaha!

[LSP972]

May be a weather difference or something, be we found the SIGs really needed to be run wet.

This… BIG-time. During my tenure on the range staff, in-service classes averaged between 25 to 40 troops. Rare indeed was the session that didn't produce at least one malfunction; and I deliberately neglected to say anything about lube during the prelims/classroom work, because almost without exception, those malfs were due to a dry gun. Well, there was one fellow who managed to lose both right side stock screws and the trigger bar spring (the piece of electrical tape holding the right stock panel in place was my first clue); of course, he was more suited for employment at Pay-Less Shoes, but I digress…


At any rate, it was a good teaching point, and some of the victims actually learned from it.

Still, this is quite surprising news. I have deliberately run a few of my HK45 Compacts and USP Compacts without any added lube or cleaning until they began choking, just to see how long it would go. The record was, IIRC, right at a thousand rounds for one HK45C; and that was with my reloads.

.

[LSP972]

HK Pro.....I simply gave up. I could not take one more post of VP9 Disorder. The "HK QC sucks, my VP9 barrel tilts up when it's locked open" was too much.

I wondered what had happened to you there. Yes, it has definitely degenerated into GlockTalk, Part Two… all because the VP9 has attracted the derpster brigade. I hang around for the entertainment value, but I find myself going there less and less. Too bad; it was once a valuable resource.

.

[LSP972]

I'm well out of the loop now, but at one time European LE was much less gun oriented in training and use than the average US agency.

Indeed; some of them fire a grand total of 15 rounds annually. That's why most of those turn-in P7s we saw a glut of some years back were in such good condition.

.

[JHC]

I ran my P30, P30L and P226 MK25 equally lubricated without issues. All 3 never had a single issue. I've got about 4500ish rounds through the HK platforms and 1500 rounds through the MK25. Not properly lubricating any firearm will cause problems. I don't think any pistol can run free of that requirement.....even glocks.

The most I ran both a Glock 19 and P30 V3 9mm without cleaning was 800 rounds. That was going in with proper lubrication before shooting. My only honest question is why people don't clean their guns after a range trip or after time on duty.

I tell myself to believe that Glocks need to be lubed because so many smart folks say so but over the years my range Glocks have run dirty and dry for a couple thousand round stretches so consistently that it makes a feller doubt stuff. ;)

[navyman8903]

I tell myself to believe that Glocks need to be lubed because so many smart folks say so but over the years my range Glocks have run dirty and dry for a couple thousand round stretches so consistently that it makes a feller doubt stuff. ;)

Well just like anything else, it's a matter of time before it becomes an issue. It's an easily eliminated variable. If you have the means and time, there's no reason not to have your gun running at 100%. I'll run them as they are for classes and other things, but outside of that, there's really no reason not to have them properly lubricated.


Also so the Sig needing to run wet point, I came to that conclusion when they included grease with their gun. They are much smoother when run wet, but they also kinda require it.

[YVK]

I have seen negative HK threads deleted on that forum.

Which is what they factually did by moving it away from a general public accessible area. Which is not a big deal because the chance of an insightful discussion there isn't high when it comes to HK criticism.

Good thread, gtmtn. I keep my HKs reasonably wet but I've been abusive to them in a sense cleaning. No doubt owing to a wide spread notion that they are tested in adverse conditions above and beyond industry standards. I also presume that some of reported malfunctions were in fact user driven by going to a lighter, more grip sensitive gun. That said, I may have to change my maintenance routine now, just like I had to do with their infallible trigger return springs.

[hufnagel]

This is purely anecdotal from a JAFO*, but I saw something that fits in with the majority of comments here. A fellow HK lover brought his USP9 to an event yesterday that he stated hadn't been touched in over a year. Right out of the box (or on the first string of fire if you will) the gun massively hiccupped... ejected the spent case but FTE'd and managed to lock the gun up. All through the day the gun was having a major temper tantrum until about 3/4 through he switched out to his VP9. The only conclusion I can come to is it didn't like sitting around not being used (I'm guessing the lube stopped being lube?) I've been meaning to pull the "bedroom" gun out and shoot it, if for no other reason than I feel bad it gets no love and sits in a dark locked box most of its life, and then clean/lube it just to make sure it's still good to go.


* 10,000,000 internet points to those who can name the movie. :D

[JSGlock34]

* 10,000,000 internet points to those who can name the movie. :D

Blue Thunder!!

http://content6.flixster.com/question/54/53/59/5453596_std.jpg

[Dagga Boy]

How about bonus points for actually being a JAFO. When my old 2nd phase FTO was my pilot, my name was JAFO the entire time we were together. Another pilot gave me the call sign Shrek. I told everyone it was because I flew with a talking Ass.

[TCinVA]

Sidearm History:
The most commonly observed malfunction is a failure to extract.


...as in slide runs to the rear but the empty case says lodged in the chamber?

Speaking personally I've never seen a problem with P30 pistols...but aside from Todd's test gun (which I shot a fair number of rounds through) they were all owned by people who had sense and lubricated them. The only time I've ever experienced a stoppage with my guns has been when using aluminum-cased ammo...and that was one stoppage out of around 1,000 rounds of aluminum-cased ammo fired. Of course, before every range session I always lubed my guns, and I tend to put a bit of lube on my carry gun whenever I notice that the barrel hood isn't shiny.

On the face of it a lack of lube doesn't make sense to me as the cause for a failure to extract...I could understand the gun running sluggish if it was dry causing a failure to eject, but the extraction should still be positive unless there is something going on in the chamber of the guns that's causing it to hold on to brass or something that's interfering with the function of the extractor. (Built-up crud under the extractor, perhaps?)

[gtmtnbiker98]

...as in slide runs to the rear but the empty case says lodged in the chamber?Partially extracted with next round abutting the failure round.

[hufnagel]

How about bonus points for actually being a JAFO. When my old 2nd phase FTO was my pilot, my name was JAFO the entire time we were together. Another pilot gave me the call sign Shrek. I told everyone it was because I flew with a talking Ass.

http://img.pandawhale.com/169937-youre-very-good-you-you-unders-ozlN.gif

[TCinVA]

Partially extracted with next round abutting the failure round.

Interesting.

[LSP972]

... just like I had to do with their infallible trigger return springs.

Guess I've been lucky; still on the originals in all my HK pistols, and my training gun is approaching 14K rounds. Oh, I'm not dismissing the issue; too many folks have had them break to chalk it up to user error (and how would you abuse one of those anyway???).

But I also remember when a whole bunch of folks were having last-round-in-the-magazine-failure-to-feeds in their USP Compact .45s, and blamed it on the magazine springs. I never did see any of that, in two pistols; in fact, I ran two magazines as training mags for ten years before giving them new springs. The originals were almost an inch shorter than the new ones; but they still worked. Strange…

All I know is, every malfunction (and I can count them on my fingers) I've ever had in almost a dozen HK pistols, over eleven years of shooting them, has been directly attributable to me; or my ammo, since I tried once to see how just how low I could go on the powder charge in .45ACP before the gun began choking.

.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Guess I've been lucky; still on the originals in all my HK pistols, and my training gun is approaching 14K rounds. Oh, I'm not dismissing the issue; too many folks have had them break to chalk it up to user error (and how would you abuse one of those anyway???).

But I also remember when a whole bunch of folks were having last-round-in-the-magazine-failure-to-feeds in their USP Compact .45s, and blamed it on the magazine springs. I never did see any of that, in two pistols; in fact, I ran two magazines as training mags for ten years before giving them new springs. The originals were almost an inch shorter than the new ones; but they still worked. Strange…

All I know is, every malfunction (and I can count them on my fingers) I've ever had in almost a dozen HK pistols, over eleven years of shooting them, has been directly attributable to me; or my ammo, since I tried once to see how just how low I could go on the powder charge in .45ACP before the gun began choking.

.
I'm a firm believer that end-user neglect coupled by poor grip is the culprit with our issues. My point was that the SIG P226/P229 seemed more forgiving of this neglect and poor grip. The grip issues really materialize when the users are stressed when SOM and other practical CoF's.

[LSP972]

Interesting.

Yes. Sounds like what we called a Phase 2 malf, or double feed; and in our Sigs (P226s, P228s, P220s) it was always either limp grip, not enough/no lube (or a combination of both of these), or a defective/under-powered cartridge.

And something else… I've read a lot about the so-called "energy absorption properties" of polymer frames, and how that can induce malfunctions. Well, after a whole bunch of time observing Sigs and Glocks on the line, IMO the Glock is actually MORE tolerant of poor form/grip than the Sig; and its damn sure more tolerant of inadequate lubrication.

You know, there are so many variables involved here, we could "what if?" it to death and still not be 100% certain of the cause.

Sure makes for interesting discussion, though…;)

.

[LSP972]

I'm a firm believer that end-user neglect coupled by poor grip is the culprit with our issues.

Oh, no doubt about it; and you made that clear up front. I wasn't taking you to task, by any means. I just found it odd that the Sigs seemed better in that regard for you. Not doubting you in the slightest; just curious.

At any rate, I feel for you. Trying to make hickory-headed cops do something they'd rather not do (or don't understand because they don't give a shit) is a daunting task; trust me, I fought those battles for years.

.

[LittleLebowski]

Great thread.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Oh, no doubt about it; and you made that clear up front. I wasn't taking you to task, by any means. I just found it odd that the Sigs seemed better in that regard for you. Not doubting you in the slightest; just curious.

At any rate, I feel for you. Trying to make hickory-headed cops do something they'd rather not do (or don't understand because they don't give a shit) is a daunting task; trust me, I fought those battles for years.

.Oh, I knew what you meant. Just adding credence to your statements.

[TCinVA]

Yes. Sounds like what we called a Phase 2 malf, or double feed; and in our Sigs (P226s, P228s, P220s) it was always either limp grip, not enough/no lube (or a combination of both of these), or a defective/under-powered cartridge.


Terminology gets sort of tricky on this, I'd imagine.

If the extractor is on the case rim and is pulling it to the rear, but the slide runs out of oomph before the case hits the ejector or fails to hit it with the required force, that's not really a failure to extract in my mind. I can see how lubrication and grip would play into that scenario.

If the slide was moving to the rear leaving the case in the chamber where another round could be slammed into the back of it, then as I see it there are a few possible causes:

- Improper extractor tension
- Broken extractor
- Debris/crud buildup preventing the extractor from achieving proper purchase on the rim of the case
- Debris or some defect in the chamber that's holding the brass enough that the extractor is pulling off of the rim as the slide moves back
- Out of spec/defective ammunition

Lubrication wouldn't really fix any of those.

Because these machines are in human hands I think we're doomed to dealing with confounded variables, but this still doesn't seem normal. And given that we're talking about a relatively small number of guns/ammunition manufacturing defects with either the weapons or the ammo being used are strong possibilities.

[GJM]

Not sure if you tracked it, but were the stoppages typically shot one on the presentation or successive shots?

[gtmtnbiker98]

Successive.

[RJ]

Which is what they factually did by moving it away from a general public accessible area. Which is not a big deal because the chance of an insightful discussion there isn't high when it comes to HK criticism.


Wow. I see that now. At first, I thought you were making a hypothetical point, but...wow. Just wow.

[RJ]

Great thread.

+1. I learn more from you guys shooting the breeze on these topics here, than five other gun forums combined.

[LtDave]

My former agency has issued USP .40 fullsize and Compacts since about '99. No issues with lube or malfunctions. The only broken one I know of was a broken trigger guard on the skull of a bank robbery suspect. We did have some issues with CCI Blazer low lead qualification ammo early on. For some reason, the case heads of the ammo were sticky and would not slide up the breech face of the HKs. Wiping off the caseheads with a rag was a low tech fix. The stuff was so sticky that you could lift a round out of the box by just pressing a finger on the round and pulling it out. Has the factory rep out, but I never got a final answer as to why.

[Kyle Reese]

Just spitballing here, but if you're using WCC for training & duty fodder, isn't it possible that some lots of this stuff have out of spec / inconsistent cartridge rim thickness, giving the extractor insufficient purchase? Any possibility at all that this could be a causal factor in these malfunctions?

[CCT125US]

Curious what the extractor tension is. On each of the six P30s or so passed through my hands, when cycled slowly they would hold a loaded 124gr Gold Dot firmly against the breach face until it hit the ejector. My beater with 80K through it still managed to do this before I dumped it. Was the spent case rim still under the extractor in your samples?

[JodyH]

Just spitballing here, but if you're using WCC for training & duty fodder, isn't it possible that some lots of this stuff have out of spec / inconsistent cartridge rim thickness, giving the extractor insufficient purchase? Any possibility at all that this could be a causal factor in these malfunctions?
The only ammo my P30 ever choked (FTExtract) on was Winchester.

[TGS]

The only ammo my P30 ever choked (FTExtract) on was Winchester.

Not a P30, but the only ammo my P2000 didn't like was the zinc coated steel case stuff. I didn't shoot any other steel cases. That stuff would swell in the chamber and I guess it doesn't work well with stepped chambers. The gun didn't have enough oomph to overcome such, and it would jam (actually using the word correctly here) about halfway through the extraction stroke. A strong power stroke would eject the round and all was fine....nothing I needed to use a tool or specially manipulate the weapon in any way.

This happened 2 or 4 times in 1000 rounds with MFS zinc plated steel ammo.

Gt,

Any idea on MRBF per weapon? Is the MRBF so short that it's no bueno?

[TGS]

Terminology gets sort of tricky on this, I'd imagine.

If the extractor is on the case rim and is pulling it to the rear, but the slide runs out of oomph before the case hits the ejector or fails to hit it with the required force, that's not really a failure to extract in my mind. I can see how lubrication and grip would play into that scenario.

If the slide was moving to the rear leaving the case in the chamber where another round could be slammed into the back of it, then as I see it there are a few possible causes:

- Improper extractor tension
- Broken extractor
- Debris/crud buildup preventing the extractor from achieving proper purchase on the rim of the case
- Debris or some defect in the chamber that's holding the brass enough that the extractor is pulling off of the rim as the slide moves back
- Out of spec/defective ammunition

Lubrication wouldn't really fix any of those.

Because these machines are in human hands I think we're doomed to dealing with confounded variables, but this still doesn't seem normal. And given that we're talking about a relatively small number of guns/ammunition manufacturing defects with either the weapons or the ammo being used are strong possibilities.

Relating to improper extractor tension....


Not that it was something that needed to be done frequently, but a tuned in member on HKPRO used to offer extractor radiusing services if need be for USPs, and I imagine P-Series as well. If the extractor radius wasn't right, it would lead to improper tension....replacing the spring wouldn't do anything in this case, even though it was always the first, obvious suspect.

[YVK]

^^^^ Two of my P30s required hammering a spent casing out of their chambers when I was doing ignition reliability testing with two different russian steel ammo types. Like within one box of ammo each time. The first time I thought it was a fluke, the second time I said "reason # 25 my Glocks aren't going anywhere".

Guess I've been lucky; still on the originals in all my HK pistols, and my training gun is approaching 14K rounds. Oh, I'm not dismissing the issue; too many folks have had them break to chalk it up to user error (and how would you abuse one of those anyway???).


.

Dry fire, I presume. I was two for two at about 4-5K live rounds intervals each until I started to replace them periodically. I realized that perhaps I was dry firing more than I had thought. I then started to approximate my dry fire count but that became old real fast, so I just got a dedicated dry fire gun.
Of interest, since I moved from heavy to light trs, the breakages went down. I think that the light trs has more longevity.

[TGS]

Here's a thread to reference from a few years back: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7068-P30-Stoppages

Are these the same stoppages, gt?

[LSP552]

I just found it odd that the Sigs seemed better in that regard for you. Not doubting you in the slightest; just curious.

.

I always felt the P220s were WAY more susceptible to the grip and poor lube problem than the 228s and 226s. Could be a .45 vs 9mm thing or just a P220 thing. IMO, the P220 has always been the most finicky of the P series.

[GJM]

^^^^


Dry fire, I presume. I was two for two at about 4-5K live rounds intervals each until I started to replace them periodically. I realized that perhaps I was dry firing more than I had thought. I then started to approximate my dry fire count but that became old real fast, so I just got a dedicated dry fire gun.
Of interest, since I moved from heavy to light trs, the breakages went down. I think that the light trs has more longevity.

The HK Parts description for the light TRS indicates it has greater longevity.

[GJM]

So it seems like the suspects are:

Lack of lubrication

Grip

Ammo

Certain P30 specimens

Or some combination of two or more of these factors.

Is HK helping you to figure it out?

[BaiHu]

I find this interesting b/c gtmtnbkr is an HK fan and he's ponying up data that shooters should know about. Even if it's making baby Odin colicky.

That being said, my new P30s have always needed about 2,000 rounds of 124gr or higher to 'break in'. Whether this is real, imagined, lore or unicorn fairy dust, it seemed to rectify things to a point that I would have 0 malfs for 1,000's of rounds after.

For the record, I've owned a P30L V3, 2 P30 V3s (still have one) and own 2 P30 V2s. All 3 V3s were BNIB and they all gave me a little trouble for the first 1500-2000 rounds. My 2 V2s were used and I never needed a 'break in'.

For the record, after running the 2000 round challenge, I do the following:

1) Clean them when I feel guilty or when I read the word 'clean' coming from ToddG anywhere on the interwebz.
2) Clean when they feel sluggish cycling.
3) Drool Otis cleaner/lubricant all over it once every couple of months just b/c it ended up in my bag years ago and I've yet to run out. I compensate for lack of cleaning/lubing with a super wetting once and a while.
4) Shoot on average 300-600 rounds/month.

I don't say this to 'defend' the motherland, rather I say this b/c it makes me ask the following:

1) How many of the users made the switch from Sig to HK and were they the more/less likely to have malfs?
2) How many of the users only experienced HKs and were they more/less likely to have malfs?
3) Were any of the P30s 'broken in'? If so, did they perform better/worse than those not 'broken in'?

Looking forward to more data...

[fixer]

I've had a few fail to extract moments with my P30LEM. I chalked it up to the gun being new and the possibility of the chamber being tight. In fact the first round I ever fired was a fail to load. There was a small burr on the case. The fail to extracts also correlate strongly to inexperienced shooters in my experience though.

[gtmtnbiker98]

So it seems like the suspects are:

Lack of lubrication

Grip

Ammo

Certain P30 specimens

Or some combination of two or more of these factors.

Is HK helping you to figure it out?

I haven't went that far, yet. I'm going to monitor this and am going to go the way of ensuring that each pistol is lubricated prior to the next range outing in late October early November. I do not believe this to be an ammo issue.

[gtmtnbiker98]

1) How many of the users made the switch from Sig to HK and were they the more/less likely to have malfs?
2) How many of the users only experienced HKs and were they more/less likely to have malfs?
3) Were any of the P30s 'broken in'? If so, did they perform better/worse than those not 'broken in'?

Looking forward to more data...

To provide a little more information, referring back to my range notes. One user, a provisional new hire (true rookie) was issued a pistol and 50 familiarization rounds (earlier in the week) prior to the last quarterly training. No issues reported from said provisional as a result of firing the 50 practice rounds. Provisional rookie comes by way of the Glock camp. This individual had the most issues of all, experiencing several failures to extract and perhaps a few failures to feed. When examining the pistol, the pistol was dry - absent any lubrication. I asked him if he had cleaned it upon issue and he stated "no." So the end-user is to blame on this one. However, it goes to prove that the venerable HK P30 is not infallible.

Another officer who experienced an issue has a track record for known issues. He also experienced similar stoppages back in March and again, his weapon was found to be dry - absent any lubrication.

Yet another issue involved a supervisor who took ownership regarding the lack of proper care and maintenance and surprisingly I know, upon examination, the pistol was found to be dry - absent any lubrication.

This is just my notes from one group who participated in range training and there was only five in this group. So 3 out of 5 users experienced stoppages. This is what prompted the alarm in the back of my mind.

The constant was the lack of lubrication and I can only surmise that the lack of lubrication was a key element coupled by weak or improper grip as a result of forcing these users to shoot out of their comfort zone. You know, the way you'll feel should you be forced to deploy lethal force in the field.

[LSP972]

Dry fire, I presume. I was two for two at about 4-5K live rounds intervals each until I started to replace them periodically. I realized that perhaps I was dry firing more than I had thought. I then started to approximate my dry fire count but that became old real fast, so I just got a dedicated dry fire gun.
Of interest, since I moved from heavy to light trs, the breakages went down. I think that the light trs has more longevity.

Hmmm… well, I don't do dry-fire practice, so that could be a factor. But thinking about it, I really don't see how dry firing works the spring any harder. In fact, I believe its just the opposite. For instance, I have installed the light TRS in a few pistols (USPs and HK45s) that immediately displayed very mushy reset; to the point of having to the push the trigger forward manually each time in dry fire on one USPc. But they reset just fine in live fire. Still, that's a reason I put the "medium" TRS in all of my pistols.

.

[JBP55]

To provide a little more information, referring back to my range notes. One user, a provisional new hire (true rookie) was issued a pistol and 50 familiarization rounds (earlier in the week) prior to the last quarterly training. No issues reported from said provisional as a result of firing the 50 practice rounds. Provisional rookie comes by way of the Glock camp. This individual had the most issues of all, experiencing several failures to extract and perhaps a few failures to feed. When examining the pistol, the pistol was dry - absent any lubrication. I asked him if he had cleaned it upon issue and he stated "no." So the end-user is to blame on this one. However, it goes to prove that the venerable HK P30 is not infallible.

Another officer who experienced an issue has a track record for known issues. He also experienced similar stoppages back in March and again, his weapon was found to be dry - absent any lubrication.

Yet another issue involved a supervisor who took ownership regarding the lack of proper care and maintenance and surprisingly I know, upon examination, the pistol was found to be dry - absent any lubrication.

This is just my notes from one group who participated in range training and there was only five in this group. So 3 out of 5 users experienced stoppages. This is what prompted the alarm in the back of my mind.

The constant was the lack of lubrication and I can only surmise that the lack of lubrication was a key element coupled by weak or improper grip as a result of forcing these users to shoot out of their comfort zone. You know, the way you'll feel should you be forced to deploy lethal force in the field.

Every 6 months each LEO places a safe and empty pistol on a bench facing downrange and a member of the Local PD FTU detail strips and inspects every pistol before qualification. The pistols must be clean, properly lubricated and contain no aftermarket parts unless approved by the FTU. They run Glocks and it is a very rare thing to see a malfunction during qualification.

[1986s4]

My current carry is a SIG P-225. I keep it wiped down and the rails lubed. It has yet to malfunction but I've only owned it about a year. I did own a P-30 for at least 4 years. Overall a good accurate pistol. Mine was well broken in but it did not like weaker ammo combined with a weak or compromised grip [one hand, unusual positions, etc.]. I have a friend with a P-30L in .40, it exhibits the same behavior with factory ammo [white box stuff].

[BaiHu]

To provide a little more information, referring back to my range notes. One user, a provisional new hire (true rookie) was issued a pistol and 50 familiarization rounds (earlier in the week) prior to the last quarterly training. No issues reported from said provisional as a result of firing the 50 practice rounds. Provisional rookie comes by way of the Glock camp. This individual had the most issues of all, experiencing several failures to extract and perhaps a few failures to feed. When examining the pistol, the pistol was dry - absent any lubrication. I asked him if he had cleaned it upon issue and he stated "no." So the end-user is to blame on this one. However, it goes to prove that the venerable HK P30 is not infallible.

Another officer who experienced an issue has a track record for known issues. He also experienced similar stoppages back in March and again, his weapon was found to be dry - absent any lubrication.

Yet another issue involved a supervisor who took ownership regarding the lack of proper care and maintenance and surprisingly I know, upon examination, the pistol was found to be dry - absent any lubrication.

This is just my notes from one group who participated in range training and there was only five in this group. So 3 out of 5 users experienced stoppages. This is what prompted the alarm in the back of my mind.

The constant was the lack of lubrication and I can only surmise that the lack of lubrication was a key element coupled by weak or improper grip as a result of forcing these users to shoot out of their comfort zone. You know, the way you'll feel should you be forced to deploy lethal force in the field.

gt,

You've been a long time HK user, are you that religious about the application of lubricant or were you more neglectful like myself? Obviously this is an issue, b/c in the real world these folks just aren't going to change their habits over the long term. Couple this with the fact that Sigs and Glocks have served them so well with the same neglect, I would not be surprised to see an about face unless there is an immediate remedy.

Have you taken each/any of their guns after a malf and been able to replicate the malf with the same magazine loaded with the same ammo lot?

[gtmtnbiker98]

gt,

You've been a long time HK user, are you that religious about the application of lubricant or were you more neglectful like myself? Obviously this is an issue, b/c in the real world these folks just aren't going to change their habits over the long term. Couple this with the fact that Sigs and Glocks have served them so well with the same neglect, I would not be surprised to see an about face unless there is an immediate remedy.

Have you taken each/any of their guns after a malf and been able to replicate the malf with the same magazine loaded with the same ammo lot?

Am I religious? No, I'm not religious about anything to be totally honest. As for my personal and issued weapons, they are always lubricated and my duty weapon is ALWAYS clean and properly lubricated.

When training, I get four hours per group with two groups per day, so given the relative 4-hr time frame, I simply didn't take the time to attempt to replicate the problem. Once the malfunction(s) occur, I field strip and note the condition of the locking block and rails. Nothing more. However, starting with the next training cycle, I will have ample amounts of Mobile 1 Synthetic on hand and each firearm will be lubricated prior to training. If the issues persist, then I'll look deeper into the potential cause.

[BaiHu]

Interesting. Looking forward to seeing how it all turns out. Good luck!

[Sammy1]

Great observations, thank you for sharing. My Agency issued the P226 in 9mm for over a decade. The guns were worn and battered but ran and shot great right to the end. We went to the P229 in 357 Sig and those firearms worked great for about ten years and then we started having issues, mostly due to lack of maintenance. The 357 Sig rounds seemed to beat up the guns much more so than the 9mm. Our 9mm 226s were loose and had severe finish wear but no issues what so ever, that administration threw ammo at us and those guns had a high round count. Like you mentioned though we generally suffered from lack of lubrication. The 229s that went down broke as in broken parts that took the gun out of service but up until breakage there were no malfunctions.

[LangdonTactical]

At what point will we start to really believe that guns need to be lubricated. I mean really, that is the common thread I see across the board. GUNS NEED LUBRICATION! It has been that way for at least the 40 plus years I have been shooting and it still seems to be the case today. I don't care how great your gun is, get it dry, get it hot and it will be marginal!

LUBE YOUR GUNS, NO MATTER WHAT MAGICAL BRAND YOU BELIEVE IN!

[Jaywalker]

Lots of rain and snow in Ohio that can rinse away lube. There's less of that in Texas. I always wondered if the 1911's early rep for reliability was simply a result of the flap holster most folks carried it in.

[Symmetry]

Lots of rain and snow in Ohio that can rinse away lube. There's less of that in Texas. I always wondered if the 1911's early rep for reliability was simply a result of the flap holster most folks carried it in.

Compared to many of the alternatives of the day.....the mil spec 1911 was stellar.

[navyman8903]

At what point will we start to really believe that guns need to be lubricated. I mean really, that is the common thread I see across the board. GUNS NEED LUBRICATION! It has been that way for at least the 40 plus years I have been shooting and it still seems to be the case today. I don't care how great your gun is, get it dry, get it hot and it will be marginal!

LUBE YOUR GUNS, NO MATTER WHAT MAGICAL BRAND YOU BELIEVE IN!

Truth.


Lots of rain and snow in Ohio that can rinse away lube. There's less of that in Texas. I always wondered if the 1911's early rep for reliability was simply a result of the flap holster most folks carried it in.

I will say having moved from upstate NY to North Texas the environment is different, as well as environmental factors. But not the toll each environment plays on the gun. I've found my lubrication habits have not really changed much at all. I still need a medium lubrication of major parts. In NY that was to fight humidity, in TX it's to fight the dust. Rain can be about the same, though it's not as frequent. Same with snow, though I was surprised to get a few snow days as a grown ass man on active duty here in Texas.

[JHC]

At what point will we start to really believe that guns need to be lubricated. I mean really, that is the common thread I see across the board. GUNS NEED LUBRICATION! It has been that way for at least the 40 plus years I have been shooting and it still seems to be the case today. I don't care how great your gun is, get it dry, get it hot and it will be marginal!

LUBE YOUR GUNS, NO MATTER WHAT MAGICAL BRAND YOU BELIEVE IN!

+1 no argument on PF. Not even from me; as I was just observing how tolerant my range guns are, not my defense guns.

[HCM]

In my experience, grease tends to last better on a carry gun then oil/CLP. If your people are lubing the guns at the end of training and the guns are dry three months later I would recommend trying to grease rather than oil.

[warpedcamshaft]

In my experience, grease tends to last better on a carry gun then oil/CLP. If your people are lubing the guns at the end of training and the guns are dry three months later I would recommend trying to grease rather than oil.

I remember hearing Bill Riehl on ballistic radio saying something to the effect of: "Unless your gun has an oil filter, you should be using grease instead of oil." I thought that was interesting.

What happened to Riehl? Haven't seen him on PF for a while and I was butt-hurt a while and might have missed some info.

[Beat Trash]

For the price of a quart of Moble 1, you could effetely lube a pistol for the rest of your career.

My agency pays bi-weekly. On pay day weeks, roll call consisted of something called, "Sunday Gunday". If you were a Patrol Rifle trained officer, you pulled your bolts and checked them. Oil them up if they were dry. Sunday's supervisors checked pistols. After getting on my folks a few times, I never saw a dry pistol again.

These officers could be your cover officer. So the life you save could truly be your own.

I'm no longer a Relief supervisor, and am now in charge of an 18 officer K-9 unit. These guys (and girl) are a different breed of Police Officer. Weapons maintenance is not something I have to preach to them. They will go after the same armed violent felon into the woods with just one cover officer that, if the felon were to go into a building instead of a woods, it would mandate two SWAT teams to respond. They understand the importance of maintaining your equipment.

Sad to say that the average Patrol Officer who is not a shooter, only lubes their gun after a department mandated training session.

With that thought in mind, I think it's as much a training issue as it is a equipment issue with the HK pistols.

[HCM]

Beat trash, not to de rail but you supervise 9 humans and 9 K-9's or do you supervise 32 "officers"?

Back on topic - if you are checking and looping your gun every two weeks I'm sure mobile one will be fine. The majority of our folks will only clean or lube their gun once every three months. I've also noticed that with oil/CLP the guns tend to dry out faster in the summer. We've recently had a few weeks of 100° plus actual temperatures (not heat index).

[Beat Trash]

18 K-9's and 18 Officers. Depends on the day as to who is the "alpha dog" in the car...

The agency uses Mobile 1. Better than nothing. But it doesn't stay put very well. Especially with long guns dealing with gravity and vertical mounts. Bug it's better than no lube at all.

I personally use other lubes.

I can remember old time "undercover" VICE officer bragging about the dust bunnies in their issued 6906's. When they worked the slides, it was the same as fingers on a chalk board.

I think there is the non-gun enthusiasts LEO camp that has to be forced to maintain their gear. I understand that. What I don't understand is the newer generation of gun enthusiast on the internet who act as if cleaning and lubing a gun is a sin. I get the concept of the 2,000 round challenge. But many feel as if they will be forced to turn in their man card if they clean an d lube their carry gun after shooting it less than a few thousand rounds.

I was a United States Marine. As such, I come from a tribe where cleaning and lubing a weapon bordered on the fanatical. The concept of a 2,000 round challenge without cleaning or lubing the gun makes the OCD in my cringe...

[Edwin]

Relevant:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bOT_d60LM

[JHC]

I remember hearing Bill Riehl on ballistic radio saying something to the effect of: "Unless your gun has an oil filter, you should be using grease instead of oil." I thought that was interesting.

What happened to Riehl? Haven't seen him on PF for a while and I was butt-hurt a while and might have missed some info.

I like his input and value it but the argument for the flushing effect of liberal amounts of oil, esp in the most dirty dusty environments is more convincing to me. But then that assumes reapplication as needed whereas this context is more about how to lube rarely I guess.

[LittleLebowski]

A heavier weight of Mobil One like 20w50 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0008DBQ2U/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0008DBQ2U&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) might help, Beat Trash.

I have contacts with two of the better weapons lube manufacturers, PM me if I can help get your guys some of the good stuff. Seriously.

[gtmtnbiker98]

In my experience, grease tends to last better on a carry gun then oil/CLP. If your people are lubing the guns at the end of training and the guns are dry three months later I would recommend trying to grease rather than oil.
I've personally tried using small amounts of TW25B on my sidearm and have learned that it attracts huge amounts of lint and other debris. For duty use, I only recommend oil and more frequent maintenance.

[gtmtnbiker98]

With that thought in mind, I think it's as much a training issue as it is a equipment issue with the HK pistols.
Totally agree, but when you mention the word mandatory inspections or spot checking sidearms, you are met with resistance and the fact that nothing will happen should a dirty or dry weapon be found. Our administration is pro training; however, nobody believes in maintenance.

[HCM]

I've personally tried using small amounts of TW25B on my sidearm and have learned that it attracts huge amounts of lint and other debris. For duty use, I only recommend oil and more frequent maintenance.

That's great for people like you and me. But will your troops actually do that more frequent maintenance? If the answer is no, then as they say in the movies "Grease is the word ".

Bruce Gray is the preeminent HK and SIG gunsmith as well as having been a factory sponsored shooter for both brands and his signature line regarding pistol maintenance is " get some damn grease".

[John Hearne]

Let's face facts, the frame of a polymer framed pistol weighs less the frame of a metal framed pistol. They also flex more unless the manufacturer does something like S&W and inserts a metal substructure. This makes the frame more susceptible to rearward acceleration caused by poor grip. If the frame is moving backwards while the slide it trying to move backwards at the same time, you have problems.

The guys at the NTI and a friend of mine who runs shoot house classes have seen this as well. When you're not in your "optimal" firing stance and grip, guns puke more. Polymer framed guns tolerate this less than metal framed guns.

The other truth is that strikers don't hit primers as hard as a gun with a hammer. Sure, they will generally compress the primer to industry standards but real hammers hit harder. Generally not an issue unless, the primer is out of spec or the gun is nasty.

Regarding P220's compared to other Sigs - I've never had any reliability problems with the P220 compared to other Sigs (barring the horrible internal extractor in the stainless slide guns). My problem was that they failed catastrophically sooner. They ran great to the point they were irreparable.

[BehindBlueI's]

18 K-9's and 18 Officers. Depends on the day as to who is the "alpha dog" in the car...

The agency uses Mobile 1. Better than nothing. But it doesn't stay put very well. Especially with long guns dealing with gravity and vertical mounts. Bug it's better than no lube at all.

I personally use other lubes.

I can remember old time "undercover" VICE officer bragging about the dust bunnies in their issued 6906's. When they worked the slides, it was the same as fingers on a chalk board.

I think there is the non-gun enthusiasts LEO camp that has to be forced to maintain their gear. I understand that. What I don't understand is the newer generation of gun enthusiast on the internet who act as if cleaning and lubing a gun is a sin. I get the concept of the 2,000 round challenge. But many feel as if they will be forced to turn in their man card if they clean an d lube their carry gun after shooting it less than a few thousand rounds.

I was a United States Marine. As such, I come from a tribe where cleaning and lubing a weapon bordered on the fanatical. The concept of a 2,000 round challenge without cleaning or lubing the gun makes the OCD in my cringe...

My department uses a mixture of non-detergent motor oil and non-detergent transmission fluid. I don't know the ratio, but could probably find out. It seems to work fine on the issued Glocks.

I carry a personal Sig and clean and lube every 500 rounds, or about every 2 weeks. I use the TW-25 on the rails and a bit of oil on the barrel.

[GJM]

As long as we are just spitballing about platforms, here are some of my observations based on my experiences, and those of friends:

P Series Sig pistols seem quite sensitive to ignition problems. I have had a number, with Sig factory action jobs, that didn't reliably ignite a range of ammo.

Beretta 92 pistols seem to require more lube than many other platforms, especially in colder weather.

HK pistols seem to be the most reliable launchers of .40 and .45 cartridges.

Glock pistols seem to require some of the least lube and cleaning of any platform.

CZ pistols require the most cleaning of anything I have.

"1911" is the platform with greatest variation in quality and function between different specimens.

In 9mm +P generally enhances function, but in .45 reduces reliability.

[JHC]

As long as we are just spitballing about platforms, here are some of my observations based on my experiences, and those of friends:

P Series Sig pistols seem quite sensitive to ignition problems. I have had a number, with Sig factory action jobs, that didn't reliably ignite a range of ammo.

Beretta 92 pistols seem to require more lube than many other platforms, especially in colder weather.

HK pistols seem to be the most reliable launchers of .40 and .45 cartridges.

Glock pistols seem to require some of the least lube and cleaning of any platform.

CZ pistols require the most cleaning of anything I have.

"1911" is the platform with greatest variation in quality and function between different specimens.

In 9mm +P generally enhances function, but in .45 reduces reliability.


Interesting. FWIW which is practically nil both my TRP and my current Dave Sams custom 1911 required/require about as much lube and cleaning as my Glocks; as in give them some and then shoot and shoot; clean and reapply every 1000-1500 rounds. Really great running pistols.

[LSP552]

As long as we are just spitballing about platforms, here are some of my observations based on my experiences, and those of friends:

P Series Sig pistols seem quite sensitive to ignition problems. I have had a number, with Sig factory action jobs, that didn't reliably ignite a range of ammo.



IME, SIGs are not sensitive to ignition issues. I have found that the factory mainspring and the Wolf 19X to be completely reliable. I do change the 19X spring every year, just because. This is my personal observations based on using SIGs for a long time and being involved in an agency program that had over 1,000 in use.

I have no experience with the SIG factory AEP work. I wonder if they are tweaking the factory spring somehow to give the effect of lower power spring but still say they are using factory parts? Perhaps this tweak ( reducing coils or bending?) isn't as repeatable as a Wolf reduced power spring? Jacked up "gunsmithing" isn't a design issue.

[TGS]

Interesting. FWIW which is practically nil both my TRP and my current Dave Sams custom 1911 required/require about as much lube and cleaning as my Glocks; as in give them some and then shoot and shoot; clean and reapply every 1000-1500 rounds. Really great running pistols.

On that, interestingly, the trend during Todd's testing was that his 1911s only suffered stoppages when freshly cleaned.

[JBP55]

A heavier weight of Mobil One like 20w50 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0008DBQ2U/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0008DBQ2U&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) might help, Beat Trash.

I have contacts with two of the better weapons lube manufacturers, PM me if I can help get your guys some of the good stuff. Seriously.

Mobil 1 20W50 VTWIN is my pistol lubricant and it works quite well.


20W50 (VTWIN)
P/P: -59.8 F
F/P: +518.0 F
V/100: 130.0 cSt
V/212: 17.7 cSt
TOR: 577.8 F
VI: 151

[taadski]

IME, SIGs are not sensitive to ignition issues. I have found that the factory mainspring and the Wolf 19X to be completely reliable. I do change the 19X spring every year, just because. This is my personal observations based on using SIGs for a long time and being involved in an agency program that had over 1,000 in use.

I have no experience with the SIG factory AEP work. I wonder if they are tweaking the factory spring somehow to give the effect of lower power spring but still say they are using factory parts? Perhaps this tweak ( reducing coils or bending?) isn't as repeatable as a Wolf reduced power spring? Jacked up "gunsmithing" isn't a design issue.


There was a change at some point in time in what Sig Corporate was shipping as "factory" mainsprings. Our agency received a bulk order of new "full weight" springs that were all noticeably lighter than those we'd been accustomed to over the years. A number of pistols began having issues with occasional light primer hits with both our standard factory training ammunition and our duty ammunition (both Federal, both well vetted over the years without issue). Sig maintained, during this process, that the springs hadn't changed and that the bulk batch we received were indeed stock 21 lb weight. They felt however substantially lighter and were NOT the equivalent of the 21 lbers we were used to. A switch back to true 21 lb mainsprings (via a separate warehoused source) remedied all our issues, but the situation left a bit of a sour taste. Just FWIW.

Re action work, I've had the opportunity to inspect several Sigs post AEP and I believe you're likely correct. It appeared that, in addition to polishing, etc… the hammer/mainsprings had been messed with yielding a substantially lighter DA pull in particular. Coincidentally, several of these had associated light primer strikes start occurring. In multiple cases, these were remedied by replacing the mainsprings with 19 or 21 lb ones.


t

[LSP552]

There was a change at some point in time in what Sig Corporate was shipping as "factory" mainsprings. Our agency received a bulk order of new "full weight" springs that were all noticeably lighter than those we'd been accustomed to over the years. A number of pistols began having issues with occasional light primer hits with both our standard factory training ammunition and our duty ammunition (both Federal, both well vetted over the years without issue). Sig maintained, during this process, that the springs hadn't changed and that the bulk batch we received were indeed stock 21 lb weight. They felt however substantially lighter and were NOT the equivalent of the 21 lbers we were used to. A switch back to true 21 lb mainsprings (via a separate warehoused source) remedied all our issues, but the situation left a bit of a sour taste. Just FWIW.

Re action work, I've had the opportunity to inspect several Sigs post AEP and I believe you're likely correct. It appeared that, in addition to polishing, etc… the hammer/mainsprings had been messed with yielding a substantially lighter DA pull in particular. Coincidentally, several of these had associated light primer strikes start occurring. In multiple cases, these were remedied by replacing the mainsprings with 19 or 21 lb ones.

t

Thanks Taadski! I was unaware that SIG may have changed their definition of what a 21lb mainspring was. I wonder if that was a bad batch or a deliberate change in spec and they just didn't want to say? Great info as always!

[Sammy1]

Speaking of Sigs I was at an LEO competition at the Sig Academy and a couple of NH Officers were having trouble with their P220s. Some big wig from Corp Sig was there and asked them what was going on. They told him the PD just spent big money on new mags and the feeding problems continued. The Sig guy summoned an armorer to the scene and he inspected the pistols and replaced the RSA for free. No more issues that day, the guns ran fine. I believe the guns were over ten years old and never had the RSA replaced. Seeing this first hand I am now skeptical of Agencies reporting problems with firearms. In this case the RSA replacement was way over due.

[GJM]

Thanks Taadski! I was unaware that SIG may have changed their definition of what a 21lb mainspring was. I wonder if that was a bad batch or a deliberate change in spec and they just didn't want to say? Great info as always!

Also not sure if the springs Taadski referenced were the cause of my P series issues, but the timing was similar. YVK, SteveB and I all ended up with ignition issues with P series models around that same time.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Mobil 1 20W50 VTWIN is my pistol lubricant and it works quite well.


20W50 (VTWIN)
P/P: -59.8 F
F/P: +518.0 F
V/100: 130.0 cSt
V/212: 17.7 cSt
TOR: 577.8 F
VI: 151

OK, JBP, I recommend Mobil 1 to folks for lube and I know what F/P means (flash point), but the rest is Greek. Would you please decode for me/us on the other specs?

[Symmetry]

Speaking of Sigs I was at an LEO competition at the Sig Academy and a couple of NH Officers were having trouble with their P220s. Some big wig from Corp Sig was there and asked them what was going on. They told him the PD just spent big money on new mags and the feeding problems continued. The Sig guy summoned an armorer to the scene and he inspected the pistols and replaced the RSA for free. No more issues that day, the guns ran fine. I believe the guns were over ten years old and never had the RSA replaced. Seeing this first hand I am now skeptical of Agencies reporting problems with firearms. In this case the RSA replacement was way over due.

We generally replace ours every 2500 rounds or so on the P220s, and try to get magazine springs replaced at about the same time to keep the cycle timing correct. The P220s that are worked on by me, and are inspected and properly lubed by me annually run fine......even with questionable operators However, just like a 1911 they are by no means a user friendly system for the average officer that only cleans and lubes their pistol after a biannual qualification. If I were to watch the average officer firing line in my agency, of all the Sigs I would bet money on for having the most malfunctions it would be with no doubt the P220 users. When the guns are run hard, even more hiccups as those stable shooting platforms break down. I ran the P220 myself for many years and in my hands the gun worked fine. So, just like a 1911, the dedicated user will make good use of it.

[taadski]

Thanks Taadski! I was unaware that SIG may have changed their definition of what a 21lb mainspring was. I wonder if that was a bad batch or a deliberate change in spec and they just didn't want to say? Great info as always!

They've always maintained that there hasn't been any change in their factory springs what so ever. So, yeah, not sure what was going on. My tin-foil-hat theory is that they lightened them on purpose in order to compete more effectively with other manufactures. :p


Also not sure if the springs Taadski referenced were the cause of my P series issues, but the timing was similar. YVK, SteveB and I all ended up with ignition issues with P series models around that same time.


G,

Hadn't all three of those pistols had factory shop action work done? I thought I recalled you saying that. I know in YVK's 228 that was the case.

[GJM]

Yes, all three, and they all went back to Sig for subsequent repair. YVK continued to have problems with that 228 after it came back from Sig again.

It would be interesting to know the weight of the springs that were causing ignition problems. Were they a little lighter than stock or a lot lighter? People reduce spring weight in the 92 with the D spring and lighter springs without issue, and in the HK line without ignition problems.

[LSP972]

People reduce spring weight in the 92 with the D spring and lighter springs without issue...

Not all. When grandson #2 announced he wanted a "real M9" (as opposed to no steenkin' 92F civilian model :D ), I ran across one that a fellow had put a supposedly real replacement government/military slide onto a commercial M9 frame, along with the better hammer and D spring. The pistol was cherry, seemed okay, so I bought it. I immediately noted erratic ignition with the Beretta OEM .22 kit, and sporadic light hits with the Euro-Pellet slide and factory ball ammo. I put in a standard-weight main spring and all was well.

.

[GJM]

.22 is a problem as regards ignition in both semi-auto pistols and revolvers.

The issues I experienced with the Sig were with Federal and Winchester LE ammo and not hard primer military or Russian type stuff.

No idea what was up with your Beretta, but it could also be related to the trigger bar. Bill Wilson has been experimenting with lighter springs in his 92 pistols, and getting crazy light pulls in DA and SA with complete reliability with mainstream US primers. I had problems with ignition with an older 92G- SD and it related to the trigger bar. Perhaps a heavier hammer spring might cover up that problem.

[jondoe297]

Not all. When grandson #2 announced he wanted a "real M9" (as opposed to no steenkin' 92F civilian model :D ), I ran across one that a fellow had put a supposedly real replacement government/military slide onto a commercial M9 frame, along with the better hammer and D spring. The pistol was cherry, seemed okay, so I bought it. I immediately noted erratic ignition with the Beretta OEM .22 kit, and sporadic light hits with the Euro-Pellet slide and factory ball ammo. I put in a standard-weight main spring and all was well.

.

Did you ever remove the extractor to get a peek at the firing pin channel? I've seen a few start developing light strikes when gunk builds up in there. Going up in spring weight fixes it, until the build up gets worse.