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Chance
08-13-2015, 01:28 PM
I’m teaching, formally, for the very first time in the fall. While it’s really not that big of a deal (first semester sophomore class covering object-oriented programming with Java, which I’ve been using for almost a decade), transitioning to the other side of the lectern has got me thinking.

I’ve got two major concerns going in, the first being time management. I’ve got a perfectionist streak that I’m going to have to quash, as my primary focus has got to be on completing my dissertation, and wrapping up my PhD. That kind of sucks, as I’d like to give my full attention to the course materials, and trying to put on a good a class as possible.

The other concern is running afoul of social justice warriors. While I’m in the engineering department, where we spend exactly zero time talking about our feels, the SJW thing is getting out of control. Students at Harvard Law began to raise a stink over teaching rape law (http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rape-law), because discussing sexual assault is, you know... disconcerting. Students in the University of California system have even taken simple statements such as, "America is the land of opportunity," and, "I believe the most qualified person should get the job" as being offensive. No, really (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/).

I'm hoping the topic of a paradigm of software engineering, and an objective discussion of a programming language, will steer clear of any of that nonsense. But still, someone may object to discussing "SQL injections" because "injections" evokes the specter of vaccinations, which we all know are dangerous and evil. Or discussing the Swing toolkit for Java, because "swing" refers to "swing dancing", and dancing is a microagression.

Those things aside, beginning teachers make mistakes resulting from inexperience and naivete. There are a lot of instructors around here in all sorts of different disciplines, and I’m curious to hear your experiences of the first time you were formally in charge of teaching of something. What did the good idea fairy bring you that you later regretted? What were some of the things you avoided doing that you probably should have? What are the cardinal rules you assembled for yourself, and now adhere to?

ReverendMeat
08-13-2015, 02:56 PM
I'm not a teacher.

But I did graduate last year from a proudly liberal university that seems to cater to the whiny SJW types. My areas of study were primarily STEM stuff, along with a good amount of social science stuff that "encourages discussion." In the latter areas, I heard many eye-rolling statements but I've never heard anybody say anything about "triggers" or any other such garbage. Outside of Touchy-Feely Nonsense (TFN) fields I think you'll do just fine. The exceptions don't disprove the rule; they are highlighted because ratings/pageviews.

Cookie Monster
08-13-2015, 11:42 PM
Doing something very well and teaching that something are two completely separate things.

I am interested in any discussion.

Cookie Monster

Glenn E. Meyer
08-14-2015, 10:33 AM
Don't take it personally when students do not listen and don't do what they were supposed to do. Just grade them fairly.

Do not listen to personal tales of woes or personal problems. Don't get involved - refer them to the appropriate counseling center or dean. Be sure you understand your Title IX procedures if one mentions an issue of sexual assault or whatever. Be sure you understand the procedures for learning disability accommodations. Some will have real problems outside your realm and some will try to con you.

Do not crack jokes about gender, race, etc. Don't even broach those subjects.

Have a clear outline, deadlines, descriptions of requirements, problems, etc. Give it to them in paper and on line.

Don't overwhelm them with computer esoterica that you find interesting, cover solid basics and make sure they learn and practice them. Studies show that testing aids in mastering material, so just don't have one big midterm, final and project. Have distributed testing and HW.

Don't get so involved in minute details that you divert from your degree as you mentioned.

This is contrary to being hard line but young teachers sometimes become grading monsters or softees. Do neither. If you have to err, be gentler. I've seen student revolts against martinet TAs.

Chance
08-14-2015, 11:31 AM
Some will have real problems outside your realm and some will try to con you.


The con thing I'm mildly concerned about. I'm proud to say my grandmother never died during the semester, so that's something I don't have experience with.

Glenn E. Meyer
08-14-2015, 12:23 PM
"I overslept and missed the test" - real or con?

Ask for printed documentation of medical issues and deaths. Put that on the syllabus. I said other excuses, if I chose to believe them, may be accepted but you drop two grade levels on the exam or project that is taken late. Does the school have an official misconduct policy? Attendance policy? Put all in the syllabus.

Oh - if you tangle with a misbehaving or slacker athlete, expect the administration to side with the athlete. Same for upscale kids with dough. Know your Ferpa regs and sexual harassment policies. Many schools have mandatory training on such.

This isn't the 70's, students may be attractive - pass on it. Never talk to a student with the door closed. If a student seems threatening, find out the school's mechanism and report it.

As far a teaching methods, I'm not a CS type, but I did teach Fortran years ago - ha! There are probably websites with such. Many folks have posted PPTs and exercises for common material that you can find with Google or professional organization website. No use to reinvent the wheel. Be sure to credit what you use. Does the ACM or IEEE have such?

There's probably tons of Java stuff out there.

PS - I need to add this story that I just remembered about a CS teaching assistant. Even though I was a psychologist I took some grad CS courses. One was Machine Architecture and Assembly Languages. This was during VietNam days. I was paired on a project with a vet just back from the war. He had the giant beard and always wore his military jacket. We were having trouble making something work. Thus, we went to the prof for help. We weren't controlling some registers correctly it seemed. As we talked to the prof, a TA - fat, archetype of geek - said, YOU call yourself CS students - how lame. Quite the geek sneer.

Vet turns and picks up the Geek by his shirt and holds him against the wall. Says - I didn't come back from the jungle to take crap from a poopy (ha) like you. Geek flops in place for a bit. I say to my partner - you can let him down the Prof will probably help us. And the prof did very nicely. As we left, vet turns to geek and says - I will find your car and blow you up. He didn't.

This the truth. Returning vets were interesting. We had one grad student who had a motorcycle and wore leathers with a swagger, cigarette dripping from his lip with disdain. A vet (who was later my best man), walked up, took the cigarette and put it out on the leather vest and said - How's about that? Motorcycle dude just had a wan grin and stood there.

Some time I will share the story of the wife chasing the prof around the building with the family 30-30 as he was 'involved' with his TA.

Chance
08-14-2015, 03:24 PM
No use to reinvent the wheel. Be sure to credit what you use. Does the ACM or IEEE have such? There's probably tons of Java stuff out there.

Fortunately, some of the prior instructors have expressed willingness to share lecture materials with me, which should keep me having to start from scratch. Now adays, with things like MIT OpenCourseWare, Khan Academy, and sites like Stack Overflow, students have it pretty easy with regards to languages. It's going to be interesting to see what happens to computer science in the next few decades, as it's just so easy to teach yourself without formal schooling.

Not many veterans around in the department, as least as far as I'm aware. I've maybe met three. I don't even think it's legal to ask about veteran status, unfortunately.

MGW
08-15-2015, 01:30 PM
I know very little about programming but there are a few universal things about teaching.

Focus more on getting students to solve problems than on the "right" or "wrong" way to do things. Give students (I don't know your class numbers so this might be difficult) the opportunity to present how they solve the problems you posed.

Set high expectations ahead of time and stick to them. For each class, let students know what the goals and objectives are for that day. Also do this for each new lesson/section/unit, however you split up your classes. Look for a book titled "Essential Question". I can find a link for it if you want to ask here or offline. It does a great job of helping you put together the scope of a class and creating higher level thinking in your students.

Give opportunities for collaborative work. I think it was a professor at Harvard that has proven that collaboration results in higher level thinking than any other type of instruction.

Be approachable and take a genuine professional interest in your students. Let them know who you are, likes, dislikes, experiences. Let them feel like they know you and who you are. You don't have to give up personal information but you have to figure out a way to connect with your students even at the college level.

Don't be afraid to make mistakes and then own up, give credit to others, when you make a mistake. You don't always have to be the sage on the stage.

Teaching is an art not a science. It's a lot more challenging than most people think but it can also be very rewarding.

Chance
08-17-2015, 08:42 AM
Give students (I don't know your class numbers so this might be difficult) the opportunity to present how they solve the problems you posed.

I would like to, but it's a fairly large class (55).


Give opportunities for collaborative work. I think it was a professor at Harvard that has proven that collaboration results in higher level thinking than any other type of instruction.

Unfortunately, the exact opposite has been true in my experience. I think in all the years I've been in school, I've had exactly two groups where everyone pulled their weights equally. And one of those groups was just myself, and one other person. It usually breaks down that one or two members will really know their stuff, and whoever's left will just coast along on the other's backs.

I might could give exercises to be done in groups in class though....

OnionsAndDragons
08-17-2015, 10:57 AM
I can't agree more about not dinging people for getting to the right answer the "wrong" way.
I gave up on math in middle school years due to this. Always tested in the top 3 in class, always got bashed on the HW. Wasn't any better in college, except for one prof. I took an Econ class I technically shouldn't have. After I got hit on my first couple HW, I pulled Doc Yusef aside and asked him why. His response was a combo of not showing my work, doing it other than the way instructed. We had a long talk about brains being different and he asked me to prove I could get consistent results my way; I did. No more marks off on the HW. He asked me to take a class 2 levels higher than I was pre-reqd for the next semester.

There are lots of smart people that get screwed by the system telling them there is only one way to get to X. Try not to perpetuate that nonsense.

Collaborative opportunities are not the same as group projects. Collaboration cannot work under coercion. Or the above issue of 1-2 squared away people carrying a group and being pissed about it happens.

My suggestion would be to have a project that MAY be done as a group, set a limit on the number of members, and let folks choose to do it themselves. Maybe a system where if done as a group, the finished project accounts for 80% of that grade and the other 20% comes from an individuals documented work on that project.

Just some thoughts!

MGW
08-17-2015, 09:58 PM
Unfortunately, the exact opposite has been true in my experience. I think in all the years I've been in school, I've had exactly two groups where everyone pulled their weights equally. And one of those groups was just myself, and one other person. It usually breaks down that one or two members will really know their stuff, and whoever's left will just coast along on the other's backs.

I might could give exercises to be done in groups in class though....

I won't argue that point. Believe it or not though, the ones that don't pull their wait still get something out of it. The students that do the majority of the work will learn even more. Include a self evaluation and a group evaluation at the end of the project. You'll be surprised at how honest the evaluations will be even from the dead loads. If any of the work is done in class you'll know quickly who knows what they are doing and who doesn't.

I also seem to remember that three people was found to be the optimal group size.

Glenn E. Meyer
08-18-2015, 09:07 AM
If our OP is concerned with finishing his dissertation, setting up a set of group projects might add complexity and problems to the courses. Like herding cats, to be blunt - as I said before, avoid things that could be trouble.

I've run groups but I was a full tenured prof - as a young one, take it easy on yourself. Teaching can eat up your time and your strategic goal is the degree. Teaching experimentation can wait until you are settled somewhere.

Chance
08-18-2015, 11:41 AM
I can't agree more about not dinging people for getting to the right answer the "wrong" way.

Yeah, that sort of thing is always irritated me.


If our OP is concerned with finishing his dissertation, setting up a set of group projects might add complexity and problems to the courses. Like herding cats, to be blunt - as I said before, avoid things that could be trouble.

And that's also an excellent point. This time out is going to have to be streamlined on my account whether that's the best way of doing things or not, I'm afraid.

Glenn E. Meyer
08-18-2015, 04:18 PM
Taught college since 1977 full time and just retired. Seen it all. New profs or grad students have to set strategic career goals as first priority. If you don't - read the Chronicle of Higher Ed. and Vitae for tips on surviving the experience.

LockedBreech
08-15-2018, 01:45 PM
Necro'ing this thread for some pointers on pitfalls to avoid in online instruction.

I am teaching my first college class this year. 30 kids, state university, sophomore criminal law online course. I’ve taught community college but this is my first university position.

RevolverRob
08-15-2018, 01:51 PM
Disregard, realized I was answering the wrong question.

Chance
08-15-2018, 02:37 PM
I haven't taught a course exclusively online, just with various online components (e.g., grading system, assignment submission, et cetera). I think maybe the only thing I can offer is to make sure that you and the students understand the minutia of using the various systems. What we use (primarily Blackboard) is about as intuitive as quantum mechanics and it's really easy to miss features that can make everyone's life a lot easier.

What's the format of the class? Self study, live Q&A, recorded lecture...?

LockedBreech
08-15-2018, 02:43 PM
I haven't taught a course exclusively online, just with various online components (e.g., grading system, assignment submission, et cetera). I think maybe the only thing I can offer is to make sure that you and the students understand the minutia of using the various systems. What we use (primarily Blackboard) is about as intuitive as quantum mechanics and it's really easy to miss features that can make everyone's life a lot easier.

What's the format of the class? Self study, live Q&A, recorded lecture...?

Getting used to the online system has been a nightmare, and I am pretty tech savvy, so I am anticipating the early issues will be helping students navigate that.

Recorded lecture, online discussion component, assigned textbook readings, and submitted assignments.

Frankly I'd much prefer an in-person Socratic teaching style, as law school showed me that's very effective at teaching the lesson and student accountability, but this online course is a step-stone up from community college classes and hopefully this will be a step-stone to in-person university-level lecturing.

To be bluntly honest, I am planning this as a possible new career, as legal practice is not remotely enjoyable as I near the 5-year mark. I've tried prosecuting, defense, and family law, and while prosecuting was by far the best they are all just a high pressure paperwork slog.

Chance
08-15-2018, 02:48 PM
I might also recommend making assignments due during times of day when you're actually available to answer last minute questions via e-mail or whatever. When I have students submit things online, I usually make the cutoff time "end of day" (which is 11:59pm, in Blackboard). A lot of students naturally assume that I'll be available to answer their panicked e-mail at 11:58pm....

And students will wait until the literal last second to turn things in. This is another actual screen shot of an e-mail I received in Spring '18:

29158

Again, that's an actual e-mail. :rolleyes:

Chance
08-15-2018, 02:57 PM
I need to start a Coterie Club thread and share the various... "odd" things I get from students.

29159

Clusterfrack
08-15-2018, 03:15 PM
There's a wealth of good advice in this thread already. Here are some more thoughts:

-Your long term career success is primary. You'll be told, "Students come first; it's all about the students", but that's just an excuse to get you to work at your own disadvantage.

-Don't try to make your course perfect. It's impossible. Also, you need to show continual improvement in your salary and promotion reviews.

-Don't make things difficult for yourself unnecessarily. Optimize the time you spend grading, preparing course materials, etc. E.g. If a mostly multiple choice exam will suffice, don't use all essay questions. If you can use student graders to save time, do it.

-Students like it when you are genuinely excited about your course. If you have the choice, show them things you are passionate about.

-Admit mistakes. Be confident and admit your limitations. Embrace your Growth Mindset. I love it when students correct me, and I reward it.

-I do not welcome unsolicited advice from students regarding my teaching, and will not discuss ways I can better address their special learning styles. I tell them to put it on the teaching evaluation. When you're new, some students will try to gaslight you by criticizing your teaching. Watch out for that and stamp it the fuck out.

-Show students some Growth Mindset slides. You can find it on Google. It makes them less whiny when their grades aren't as good as they hoped.

-Don't fight unnecessary battles. Late work? Sure, as long as it doesn't make extra work for me. Missed exam due to "illness"? Prorate grades from other exams and the final. I used to be a total hardass but learned that it takes too much time, most students won't learn from it, and brand new students come next semester.

-Document all significant issues that occur between you and students or colleagues. What, when, where. Follow up verbal exchanges with an email summarizing what you heard them say, and what you are telling them.

-And, yes, never close your office door. Never, ever be alone with a student. When they start crying, open the door wider and possibly bring a colleague (witness) to come help. After some experience, I now have a physical barrier (table) between the student's seat, and my office chair. Also, no hugs. Just don't go there. If you are propositioned sexually or a student starts acting crazy, call the hotline, campus safety, or 911. Doesn't matter that you are male, you need to document what happened before they do.

LockedBreech
08-15-2018, 03:25 PM
Appreciate the time taken, thank you


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Duelist
08-15-2018, 09:25 PM
Blackboard can be a PITA. Make sure you get as familiar with it as you can, because your students will expect you to be an expert at running it and will be more likely to ask you for help than the help desk.

Establish exactly how you want to be contacted for your most optimal response time and communicate that to them clearly and in more than one place. Better to repeat yourself and be redundant than for a student to not be able to find the "right" way to contact you.

Make deadlines very clear in the syllabus.

RevolverRob
08-15-2018, 10:17 PM
A lot of students naturally assume that I'll be available to answer their panicked e-mail at 11:58pm....

I resolve this issue, by clearly stating in the syllabus, "Instructor only checks and responds to emails twice daily Monday-Friday, at 9:30am and 4:30pm. All emails received after 4:30pm will, at the earliest, be read and responded to the following day (unless received on Fridays in which case, the following Monday)."

Some other time saving devices - I tell my students (in the syllabus) to include the course identifier in the subject line, for instance if I'm teaching geology 101, all emails should have "GEO101" in the subject line - an additional subject title is appreciated such as, "GEO101 - Absence For Class on Thursday". As I explain to my students, I do this to allow their emails to be filtered into specific folders in my inbox, saving me time and organizational effort. I don't know about you guys, but on a "slow" day I received ~30 emails, during mid-terms, I can see that spike up to 70 or 80. So, I filter as much of it as I can into designated class folders. It also makes it much easier to find emails from a specific student or time or date. And it puts the onus on the student to communicate properly. Students who think I am at their beck and call are exceedingly frustrating to deal with. Making them jump through hoops saves me time and demonstrates the appropriate hierarchical nature of our working relationship. :eek:

___

LockedBreech my main advice is as follows:

Everything goes in the syllabus.

Communication Policy
Office Hours
Absence Policy
Grading Policy
Boiler Plate Legal Stuff (Ethics, Disability Accommodations, etc).
Exam Dates
Schedule
Readings
Homework Assignments
Due Dates for all materials not exams

It cuts down, tremendously on silly questions and importantly, forces you to consider from A-to-Z what you're course outline is going to be. Let's you know what you need to prep and gives you the contractual fallback you may need (you're a lawyer, you get it!).

Whatever your policies are, confirm that they are generally inline with the university (e.g., if they use +/- grading, you use it). Make sure to submit your syllabus to the department chair for "approval". Chances are really good the department chair will never look at it, but if they don't, it wasn't because you didn't give it to them. It's cover your ass insurance. I honestly, did not know this was a fairly universal policy for the first half-dozen semesters I taught. Until, I nearly got caught out one day and had the fortune of having a good chair to back me on it. Since then, every time I write a syllabus, it goes to the department chair (of the department the class is in, not always the department I am in) for 'approval'. I haven't needed it since, but I'm glad to be covered.

Ditto on the things echo'ed above - no closed doors with students, any potential solicitations you receive need to be immediately reported. Cheating needs to be dealt with immediately. I have a zero tolerance cheating policy. You'd think that students are all above this, but they really aren't. I've taught nine classes across two universities now and I've caught cheaters in four of them and had two female students and a male student offer "favors" for better grades.

Finally, I try to have an open door policy in terms of allowing my students to discuss with me any mitigating circumstances that might be affecting their performance in class. If something is genuinely affecting a student's life, it's better I know about it so I can help them, knowing after the fact ties your hands. If you know, you can help a student who may otherwise fail, succeed, and that is amazing.

One of my favorite anecdotes in my career is from when I lectured a class in Austin. I had a first year student who came to class every day, asked questions, always went to lab, she was clearly trying but having difficulty with the exams. She came to my office hours one afternoon and came completely unglued, started crying. She was a first generation student, far from home, and her mother and boyfriend were guilting her badly about it. She was depressed, not sleeping, and thinking of quitting. Hard stuff for anyone to deal with. I've been there, myself, on a very personal level, so I understood. I directed her to student counseling services for her depression, her TA and I worked together to make sure she got a bit of additional tutoring in class, I reached out to her academic counselor who worked with her to get her more help. She passed the class, brought her solid C up to an A-. I got an email from her last year, she had just won the department award for best undergraduate student research in geology, won best paper at a regional Geo Soc America meeting, and gotten a fellowship to fund her first two years of her graduate school in geology. Her words were, "You may not remember. But I came into your office and I thought I was done. You helped me, you showed compassion, and because of that, I have been successful." To which I told her, "No, you're successful because you put in the work to get it done. You had the courage to ask for help when you needed it. I'm glad that I was there to be a helpful part of that solution". - It really doesn't get more rewarding than that. I could publish a thousand papers, get a Nobel prize or whatever, and ultimately still not be as rewarded as knowing you helped someone who wanted to succeed, succeed.

Baldanders
08-15-2018, 10:22 PM
I don't have tons to add to this necro thread, but I have a few things I have gleaned in 2 years at the High School level:

1) Realize you will suck raw ass at first. Even future teachers of the year were shit at the beginning. Competence may hit at the 4-5 year point. (Yes, I'm still working on it myself)

2) If you are bored and/or frustrated, so are your students.

3) Non-teachers giving you advice are as worthless as folks who tell LEOs how they should do their job. Everyone has had years of experience being a student, so everyone thinks they know how to perform the job. By the same logic, reading novels and watching movies should give you all the skills to be a successful writer or director.

4) If it's not working, stop doing it immediately. Take a chance on something that might work. Worst case, it fails as well. At least you know two things you shouldn't do instead of just one.

5) Have a plan everyday, but realize "no plan survives contact with the enemy" and don't freak out in front of the students. Flip out later.

6) Keep a sense of humor or you will lose your mind.

Baldanders
08-15-2018, 10:35 PM
One of my favorite anecdotes in my career is from when I lectured a class in Austin. I had a first year student who came to class every day, asked questions, always went to lab, she was clearly trying but having difficulty with the exams. She came to my office hours one afternoon and came completely unglued, started crying. She was a first generation student, far from home, and her mother and boyfriend were guilting her badly about it. She was depressed, not sleeping, and thinking of quitting. Hard stuff for anyone to deal with. I've been there, myself, on a very personal level, so I understood. I directed her to student counseling services for her depression, her TA and I worked together to make sure she got a bit of additional tutoring in class, I reached out to her academic counselor who worked with her to get her more help. She passed the class, brought her solid C up to an A-. I got an email from her last year, she had just won the department award for best undergraduate student research in geology, won best paper at a regional Geo Soc America meeting, and gotten a fellowship to fund her first two years of her graduate school in geology. Her words were, "You may not remember. But I came into your office and I thought I was done. You helped me, you showed compassion, and because of that, I have been successful." To which I told her, "No, you're successful because you put in the work to get it done. You had the courage to ask for help when you needed it. I'm glad that I was there to be a helpful part of that solution". - It really doesn't get more rewarding than that. I could publish a thousand papers, get a Nobel prize or whatever, and ultimately still not be as rewarded as knowing you helped someone who wanted to succeed, succeed.

Well done sir, well done! Mind if I quote you on this to other teachers?

RevolverRob
08-15-2018, 10:38 PM
6) Keep a sense of humor or you will lose your mind.

Reminds me of another anecdote. I believe humor is a great teacher, anything that can allow others to see you as a human, tends to be good.

I gave a lecture that I was particularly interested in one time to the students (it was about the evolution of the middle ear in mammals). It turns out that the students hated that lecture, sufficiently that they immediately complained to their TAs about it (always a mistake, it means I hear about it). So, the following lecture period, I open up the Powerpoint. And I turn to the students and I say, "Since everyone loved the middle-ear lecture so much last time, I've decided that we're going to spend today's lecture, discussing the diversity of animals from the perspective of their middle ears." Then I hit next slide - to which showed half-a-dozen mammal middle ears on the screen. I had animated the slide to start labeling anatomical structures and show some of the nuanced differences of middle and inner ears between mammals.

The look on their faces - priceless. A mixture of disgust, denial, hatred...the pure, burning, hatred.

I clicked the next slide and kept babbling about ears. They started looking at each other, "No...this can't be happening."

I clicked the next slide - it's blank. Everyone stops and at this point, one of my TAs is in the back barely containing himself....and I crack a smile and look at the students and say, "Next time you guys complain to the TAs, remember I hear about it...We will not be talking about middle ear diversity today. I'm just screwing with you guys."

The look of relief, you'd thought they'd all simultaneously gotten reprieves from death sentences.

RevolverRob
08-15-2018, 10:40 PM
Well done sir, well done! Mind if I quote you on this to other teachers?

If you think it'll help anyone be a better teacher or person, go for it.

Baldanders
08-15-2018, 11:06 PM
At the very least, I think it will lift some spirts, thanks. Nice anecdote on the middle ear.

Me, I avoid slave narratives and the like because I realized my African-American students feel like it's time for the Klan kids (the KKK is still a big thing where I live) to sneer at them again every time they have to cover such material in public. White people's ideas of what will empower minorities are often sadly mistaken. Sometimes the groans are a valuable feedback on what I am doing wrong --but not not often. 😊

My highest moment of sadism as a teacher was making my honors kids take a bit from a sci-fi novel that simulates a computer trying to transribe the thoughts of a severe dyslexic and have them turn it into perfect standard English. Those were some fun groans. For extra jack-assedness, I "translated " the passage at the same time as they were doing it, with no prior prep.

LockedBreech
08-16-2018, 12:47 AM
Too much quality stuff added to reply on my phone, but it has all been read and very, very appreciated. I’ll give an update about halfway through the course as to how it’s going.

Thanks again.


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