Support for campus carry?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/president-of-a-keiser-u-campus-is-suspended-after-sexual-rendezvous-turns-into-carjacking/103029?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en

Hmm?

Should be sent to the oppositional presidents of the private colleges in TX.

[GardoneVT]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/president-of-a-keiser-u-campus-is-suspended-after-sexual-rendezvous-turns-into-carjacking/103029?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en

Hmm?

Should be sent to the oppositional presidents of the private colleges in TX.

The problem with campus carry is marketing.

What we essentially have to do is find a way to get parents to be OK with armed strangers around their kids-oh, and said kids will be hundreds or thousands of miles away whilst armed strangers walk about them outside of Ma and Pa's influence. I can see why a lot of parents would be of the "No Fing Way" attitude - better the whole campus burn down then risk their daughter(s) being shot by Cleetus' son at a basement party showing off his XD.

The closest I believe we can come to this is allowing veterans and reserve military + LE to carry; selling Joe Public on letting anyone carry around their college age kids is a bridge too far PR wise and college administrators have their own reasons why they'd oppose armed folk on campus.

[breakingtime91]

I attend a college in Montana (which is very pro gun even in the more Liberal areas). With that said, in most of my classes where this issue came up, it seemed most were 50/50 on it. The best thing we came to was allowing veterans, former leo, and active to carry. Even with that idea someone brought up the point that even if someone is a vet, it doesn't mean they know how to handle a gun effectively/efficiently. I am of the stand point, live and let live (which means let me carry a fucking gun so I can defend myself and everyone in this stupid building).

[Hambo]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/president-of-a-keiser-u-campus-is-suspended-after-sexual-rendezvous-turns-into-carjacking/103029?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en

Hmm?

Should be sent to the oppositional presidents of the private colleges in TX.

Because Luscious and Brittany are graduate teaching assistants?

[LorenzoS]

The problem with campus carry is marketing.
Most people imagine allowing any 18 year old freshman to walk around strapped when they hear "campus carry." I had a conversation with an acquaintance who thought campus carry is insane. When I agreed and asked how he'd feel about simply limiting carry to those who are over 21, went through a background check and permitting that allows carry everywhere else but just removing the prohibition when on a campus, they say "sure that makes sense."

[Peally]

Here's a crazy thought for those parents: shut up and shove it ;)

When attending a college 40 year old farts don't need to be bound by restrictions for high school kids.

[Hambo]

Did anybody read the linked article? Branch campus president goes off campus, meaning he left the old Boxmart they converted to class space, picked up Luscious and Brittany (not teaching assistants) and got carjacked.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Thanks for reading it. Many campuses ban even having a gun in the car. So if you leave campus to engage in hijinks you are unarmed. Thus, the president might not have been able to defend himself in the critical incident.

Luckily TX passed a law recently that schools cannot ban guns in the car. Thus, a president going off to meet L and B could arm himself as he leaves campus. That is an important point! :rolleyes:

[Odin Bravo One]

I am of the stand point, live and let live (which means let me carry a fucking gun so I can defend myself and everyone in this stupid building).

For any location that prohibits, restricts, or otherwise takes away my ability to defend myself and others, I am of the "You morons are all on your own" (Which means: None of you can afford my privatized & evil capitalistic fee's, and I don't accept "IOU's" for services rendered so I am leaving you to fend for yourselves.....May the odds be ever in your favor...........maybe try to find a bow behind the bookcase in the library?)

[Hambo]

Thanks for reading it. Many campuses ban even having a gun in the car. So if you leave campus to engage in hijinks you are unarmed. Thus, the president might not have been able to defend himself in the critical incident.

Luckily TX passed a law recently that schools cannot ban guns in the car. Thus, a president going off to meet L and B could arm himself as he leaves campus. That is an important point! :rolleyes:

The local Keiser branch isn't a campus. It's an ex-retail store in a large strip mall, and I presume that's how they operate throughout the state. In Florida you can't take a gun on campus, but you can leave a gun in your car in a parking lot. Since Keiser's "campus" doesn't really extend beyond the doors of the building they leased I think El Prez could have kept a gun in his car.

More than a campus carry issue, this is a "doing stupid things, in stupid places, with stupid people" violation.

[StraitR]

Here's a crazy thought for those parents: shut up and shove it ;)

When attending a college 40 year old farts don't need to be bound by restrictions for high school kids.

You have any kids?

[Peally]

You have any kids?

No. Not a valid reason either way for forcing grade school restrictions on a business that serves people in every age group The same excuse could be applied to any place you could potentially send your kids.

[StraitR]

No. Not a valid reason either way for forcing grade school restrictions on a business that serves people in every age group The same excuse could be applied to any place you could potentially send your kids.

All that chest pounding is easy when you don't have children. Based on that alone, you fail to have even the basic understanding of what parenting is or how it should be done, let alone remotely qualify to tell them to "shut up and shove it ;)". I especially liked the "aren't I cool for saying this?" condescending emoji.

I didn't want argue one way or the other on this specific topic, but it's a business, and they have the right to make any determination on the subject they see fit, just as you have the right to not patron the place. If you don't like it, don't go there, much like other places of business that you don't fundamentally agree with their policies.

[RevolverRob]

Education is key. A good friend of mine and a colleague was just visiting me earlier this week. While kicking back over a couple of glasses of 12-year old Glenlivet - She asked me about my thoughts on Campus Carry. I told her, I largely felt that it is an academic issue and not in the realm of higher ed, in the realm of considering the "problems" it may cause.

First, campus carry doesn't mean every Freshman frat boy, will be carrying a Glock in class. You will still have to obtain a concealed carry permit, which in the vast majority of states means being 21 years old, and passing some form of education and shooting competency (which is not to say that it is sufficient to carry a gun).

Second, the number of CHL holders on predominantly liberal college campuses sits in the tens or perhaps few hundreds, not in the thousands. At a place like my alma mater (UT Austin), where 100,000+ people descend on the campus every day - the simple reality is chances of taking a class where someone is carrying a gun in it, are minuscule.

Third, the data don't lie here. Texas keeps tracks of crimes committed by CHL holders in 2013 - of 50,000+ convictions, Texas CHL holders committed 0.316% of those crimes. When a faculty member says something like, "I'm terrified that a student will shoot me if I make them angry." - I just point them to the actual statistics. Letting licensed, legally armed, citizens in your classroom is less dangerous than riding your bicycle to campus. (By the by - this is a GREAT example of how actually keeping and allowing data to be accessed by the public aids your argument, doesn't hinder it).

The hand wringing that is going on - is a masterful exercise in ignorance. Careful assessment of the facts and data, will convince most reasonable people there is nothing wrong with it. Of course, "reasonable people" and "Higher Education Administration" aren't usually synonyms.

-Rob

[StraitR]

Well said Rob, and I completely agree. Like general CCW/CHL stats from state to state, there are going to be some instances of poor judgment, be that intentional or unintentional actions, but statistically the juice is worth the squeeze.

[Peally]

All that chest pounding is easy when you don't have children. Based on that alone, you fail to have even the basic understanding of what parenting is or how it should be done, let alone remotely qualify to tell them to "shut up and shove it ;)". I especially liked the "aren't I cool for saying this?" condescending emoji.

I didn't want argue one way or the other on this specific topic, but it's a business, and they have the right to make any determination on the subject they see fit, just as you have the right to not patron the place. If you don't like it, don't go there, much like other places of business that you don't fundamentally agree with their policies.

They do indeed have the choice, right or wrong. Unfortunately due to my field I'm effectively forced to go to school for life if I want to afford any sort of housing above a paper bag, thus these stupid policies directly affect me and I have my opinions. As far as campus self defense policy outside of a couple very rare states everyone is effectively screwed if they want any basic education; not supporting them is perfectly fine in theory and plain impossible in reality.

Opinions incoming, brace yourselves:

In a purely hypothetical world where policy boils right down to random Billy Flunksalot's parent's opinions and my own regarding what I can or can't do with a right, frankly they can indeed shove it, plain and simple. The smilie is there to lighten up what is otherwise a fully intended jab at those helicopter parents that can't trust their kids to not be stupid, and would rather pressure administration into bending everyone over for good feels instead of raising a kid right. Having a child qualifies people to make enterprise/government-style decisions as much as their enjoyment of zucchini does. That's not a jab at you personally, but there's an avalanche of mouth breathing twits in this world that just happened to figure out how to have children. I don't much care what they think about anything, and as mentioned in my previous post their input into campus policy directly affecting me is worth jack as far as I'm concerned.

All this is quite off topic and academic, but if you take offence from my opinions I do apologize. I also apologize for sounding like some sort of sovereign citizen spouting on about "mah rights" but it certainly applies here.

TL;DR: I'll chest pound all I want, campus carry policy p*sses me off ;)

[StraitR]

No offense taken, as everyone is entitled to their opinions, popular or otherwise. I understand where you're coming from, even as a parent, albeit of very young children, and we agree on campus carry policies. We just convey the message in different ways.

One thing I've always found ironic, is that so many academic liberals driving the anti-gun rhetoric stand arrogantly on an amendment that will most certainly be stripped soon after they have their way with the 2nd.

[GardoneVT]

Well said Rob, and I completely agree. Like general CCW/CHL stats from state to state, there are going to be some instances of poor judgment, be that intentional or unintentional actions, but statistically the juice is worth the squeeze.

Statistics are cold comfort for the parent concerned for their college age kid(s) two or three time zones away.

Parents have a very simple attitude about risks and their kids -zero, and lower then that if possible. On this subject we face a problem, because the risk of an ND by a student on campus is much higher then the likelihood of a spree shooting halted by the same.

Before someone jumps down my throat about how I know the latter, understand this; I've spent the last 4 years on and nearby a Midwest university.I know of one case where Cleetus Jr. brought his Glock pistol into an upperclass housing building and proceeded to ND the thing , triggering the building fire alarm and forcing the evacuation of hundreds of kids in a dark South Dakota winter's night.

Keep in mind firearms are currently banned at that university, and someone had an ND. The kid didn't get caught; I heard the account from one of his acquaintances months after the fact. At the time friends took the perpetrator plus his handgun off-campus before the PD could sort things out. Fortunately the walls in that residence hall are old-school brick and not modern sub-molecular thickness walls.

To sell campus carry , we have to face the rational objection by parents sending their kids hundreds of miles away from home at GREAT expense that there also exists the risk of some jackhead plugging his neighbor showing off his carry gun. Background checks and even military service are no guarantees against stupidity.

To that, we'd need a VERY good argument besides just the nebulous risk of some ahole using the quad for target practice. I don't have kids, but I understand totally why many parents would say 'Hell #@ing No' to the notion of moderately or untrained strangers carrying weapons around their kids in areas far away from home.

[Peally]

Hell at this point I'd be OK with allowing it after voluntarily taking one of the campus' incredibly basic yet expensive pistol courses (don't shoot yourself 101 all through basic simunitons 104 IIRC). Our local tech college has a police range (much to the dean's displeasure) and they do offer that sort of thing, for now at least.

I understand the parent viewpoint completely, but as a regular poor slob damn does it suck to be tied to it.

[RevolverRob]

Statistics are cold comfort for the parent concerned for their college age kid(s) two or three time zones away.

1) Parents two or three time zones away - aren't voting in the state where the legislation matters.
2) It is not parents who attend State Congress hearings on campus carry, it is representatives from the Universities, students from campus, faculty members, expert witnesses, etc.

With all due respect to the parents here - When your kid(s) set foot on a campus at 18 years old, they are themselves, responsible, law abiding citizens. If you don't trust your kid or anyone else's keep them locked in the basement. Until then - the data don't lie about this situation and frankly this is a bunch of teeth gnashing and hand wringing for nothing. If you're afraid your kid is gonna get shot by a classmate - pay for them to have their own gun and concealed carry license.

-Rob

[Luke]

Well said rob. If your sending your 18 year old off to college and can't trust them with a gun I feel you have failed.

[Willard]

For those who say "NO", I submit you might as well oppose concealed carry in any environment, as your kids could wind up there too. Your arguments against are identical to those of the left who oppose concealed carry across the board.

[Hambo]

Well said rob. If your sending your 18 year old off to college and can't trust them with a gun I feel you have failed.

You can't change how your child's brain develops so I wouldn't say you've failed. Most states don't issue permits to anyone under 21, and most LE won't hire anyone under that age. That has to do with a minimum level of development and maturity. So when we're talking about campus carry we are talking about students 21 or older, staff, and visitors.

[ssb]

An issue I saw for campus carry (or gun anything) is storage. If the student lives on campus, chances are he/she cannot modify (damage) anything in the dorm. That means no bolting down a pistol safe, and bringing in a larger floor safe is probably outside the realm of possibility (space + budget). A dorm room or campus apartment isn't really what I'd call a secure location -- roommates floating in/out, friends in/out, drunk neighbors showing up in the wrong room unannounced, etc. Theft was a big deal in my campus living experience -- people's electronics, jewelry, money, etc. came up missing all the time.

Doing my post-grad stuff, it appears that most older students live off campus at this particular university. At my undergrad, housing was difficult to find (small town) and many chose to live on campus rather than get an apartment in the next city over (20-30min drive away).

My undergrad campus allowed us to store firearms with the campus PD for what that's worth. I did that for a while before I was able to move off campus with some like-minded friends. Sometimes it was simple and easy, and sometimes it meant waiting around for an hour or two for an officer to come off a call IOT unlock the gun room. It ended up being more trouble than it was worth to me.

None of the above is an opposition to the concept, but safe storage is a logistical concern.

[StraitR]

For those who say "NO", I submit you might as well oppose concealed carry in any environment, as your kids could wind up there too. Your arguments against are identical to those of the left who oppose concealed carry across the board.

This kind of generic thinking and assumptive association stinks of ARFCOM and Glocktalk. While I do support campus carry, as a parent I have plenty of concerns, most of which were covered very well by GardoneVT on the previous page. I suggest you go take another look.

[GardoneVT]

1) Parents two or three time zones away - aren't voting in the state where the legislation matters.
2) It is not parents who attend State Congress hearings on campus carry, it is representatives from the Universities, students from campus, faculty members, expert witnesses, etc.

With all due respect to the parents here - When your kid(s) set foot on a campus at 18 years old, they are themselves, responsible, law abiding citizens.
-Rob
Two counterpoints.

One: $30,000 per year , per customer in tuition and housing purchases a LOT of political power. The interests of the parents are backed by the university, who in turn is backed by the state political system regardless of party.

Two; I can't speak to other 18 year olds. But I was a total moron at that age in terms of maturity ,and I knew and hung out with like minded morons. I then joined the military, which is chock full of asinine regulations on the most banal of activities because of 18 year old members who were total morons themselves.

It is the height of hubris to think most modern day college bound 18 year olds have the maturity to handle firearms with the deadly respect they command. Most parents understand this concept all too well.

Before someone says 18 year olds won't be carrying ,understand that people don't live in a vacuum. When I was in college as a 21 year old I dated a 19 year old girl. She hung out with 19 and 18 year old pals. Which meant I occasionally did too. Firearms will be in close proximity to 18 year olds , if not explicitly carried by them.

I'm not saying campus carry shouldn't be considered, or banned. What I am saying is the matter is not as simple as saying "go forth, and bring your Glock to Orientation."


Some logistical and social safeguards to college kid stupidity need to be considered .At the homecoming dance, will there need to be a booth with a metal detector and armed security to check in guns? Who's gonna pay for all that infrastructure? Should the students be billed to have a gun save installed into their dorm? Should the gun owning students pay an extra fee?

Who's gonna have a key to the safe? University PD? The resident life head RA? How security concious are modern college students ? Cops get nailed for leaving their guns in unauthorized places.

All we need is to have a grad student pull a stoopid, forget to lock up the safe key and wind up enabling a mass theft of firearms.....or enable some epic ahole to shoot up the place using the students' own weapons.

[Willard]

This kind of generic thinking and assumptive association stinks of ARFCOM and Glocktalk. While I do support campus carry, as a parent I have plenty of concerns, most of which were covered very well by GardoneVT on the previous page. I suggest you go take another look.

You say you support but have concerns. You can attribute it to "generic thinking and assumptive association stinking of (insert other forum of your choosing...not sure how that is relevant, but ok)," nevertheless, your concerns remain similar to those of everyone in society regardless of campus or general carry. I have read the points expressed by GardoneVT and others. Noted. The likelihood of a spree shooting is infinitesimal. It may be more likely that someone will have a negligent discharge than use a gun for defense. Etc. Arthur Kellermann and his cohorts published a lot of junk science to this end, most of which was discredited by Gary Kleck, John Lott, and others.

Regardless, I would still prefer the opportunity to defend myself in a campus setting (same as elsewhere) vice forefiting that ability due to fear someone may do something irresponsible. I choose the same for my children. Maybe your concerns would be alleviated if on campus students can't carry/store firearms in their dorms, but I cannot see why older, less conventional students have to go unarmed because parents are concerned. Otherwise, lets dumb it down to the lowest common denominator across the board and leave the guns in the safe at home for the good of the children both on and off campus.

[RevolverRob]

Two counterpoints.

One: $30,000 per year , per customer in tuition and housing purchases a LOT of political power. The interests of the parents are backed by the university, who in turn is backed by the state political system regardless of party.

No it doesn't. It actually doesn't buy you much at all. When you're talking about an institution that has 35,000+ students enrolled - your special snowflake and your money is a drop in the bucket that is irrelevant to the administration. They can, literally, find another dozen students to take special snowflake's place. If you want to earn political power at a university, you either need to work there or you need to donate ten times that amount, annually, for a five years in a row. Now, if you can mobilize enough parents to bitch and moan, you might be able to get somewhere. Realistically, though the majority of your parents don't agree with one another and getting them to agree politically is difficult.


Two; I can't speak to other 18 year olds. But I was a total moron at that age in terms of maturity ,and I knew and hung out with like minded morons. I then joined the military, which is chock full of asinine regulations on the most banal of activities because of 18 year old members who were total morons themselves.

It is the height of hubris to think most modern day college bound 18 year olds have the maturity to handle firearms with the deadly respect they command. Most parents understand this concept all too well.

Before someone says 18 year olds won't be carrying ,understand that people don't live in a vacuum. When I was in college as a 21 year old I dated a 19 year old girl. She hung out with 19 and 18 year old pals. Which meant I occasionally did too. Firearms will be in close proximity to 18 year olds , if not explicitly carried by them.

I'm not saying campus carry shouldn't be considered, or banned. What I am saying is the matter is not as simple as saying "go forth, and bring your Glock to Orientation."


Some logistical and social safeguards to college kid stupidity need to be considered .At the homecoming dance, will there need to be a booth with a metal detector and armed security to check in guns? Who's gonna pay for all that infrastructure? Should the students be billed to have a gun save installed into their dorm? Should the gun owning students pay an extra fee?

Who's gonna have a key to the safe? University PD? The resident life head RA? How security concious are modern college students ? Cops get nailed for leaving their guns in unauthorized places.

All we need is to have a grad student pull a stoopid, forget to lock up the safe key and wind up enabling a mass theft of firearms.....or enable some epic ahole to shoot up the place using the students' own weapons.

It is currently unclear, but some schools provide safe storage. Back when we had a university run gun range and Rifle and Pistol Club on campus (with...~gasp~ students enrolled who were as young as SEVENTEEN) in an annex attached to the old ROTC building (now since demolished, may it rest in peace), firearms could be brought on campus and stored in lockers at the range with permission from the range administrator. Currently, Texas state law allows students to leave firearms locked in their vehicles. Because students who live in dorms can also have vehicles parked in parking garages, there is at least a stop gap. Another potential that did exist when I was a student, was lockers at the campus police department. My point is - such problems are easily overcome, by actually attempting to overcome them.

Regardless, if students choose to have firearms it becomes their duty as adults to be responsible for them. Just because you hung around with immature people, doesn't give a single good justification for denying firearms ownership or carry rights to anyone in this country. Everyone is immature at 18, sure, but last time I checked, the Constitution didn't have a maturity requirement. Thank goodness too, because if it did, virtually no one would have a First Amendment protected right to free speech.

-Rob

[GardoneVT]

Now, if you can mobilize enough parents to bitch and moan, you might be able to get somewhere. Realistically, though the majority of your parents don't agree with one another and getting them to agree politically is difficult.


Unless the subject involves the physical safety of their kids.



It is currently unclear, but some schools provide safe storage. Back when we had a university run gun range and Rifle and Pistol Club on campus (with...~gasp~ students enrolled who were as young as SEVENTEEN) in an annex attached to the old ROTC building (now since demolished, may it rest in peace), firearms could be brought on campus and stored in lockers at the range with permission from the range administrator. Currently, Texas state law allows students to leave firearms locked in their vehicles. Because students who live in dorms can also have vehicles parked in parking garages, there is at least a stop gap. Another potential that did exist when I was a student, was lockers at the campus police department. My point is - such problems are easily overcome, by actually attempting to overcome them.


How? Can you teach a modern day 18 year old (not his 1974 contemporary) the importance of physical security? The universities tell parents the dorm buildings are secured with keys and keycards, while their kids prop open doors and open them for unauthorized strangers all the time.

That attitude combined with access to deadly weapons is NOT good.College kids don't care about security ; they're kids mostly unaware of the consequences when one key falls into the wrong hands. Either we spend money on training (waaaa! budget!!) or we spend money on trained LEOs to ensure preservation of security (waaaa! Fascist cops!)

What happens when a student with a gun gets charged with a crime and their weapon needs to be seized ? Property laws can get all kinds of weird when a third party holds prohibited property of another person.Does the college need an FFL to manage the inevitable problem of storing guns for people unable to legally own them mid-semester?

Then there's DV , always a hot issue on college campuses. Should the university now take an active role to disarm students accused of sexual harassment? Would a university-filed complaint be grounds for seizing a students firearm? Lautenberg applies when its a government-associated DV RO...but what about a college processed complaint? Assume your daughter is being stalked and she's filed a complaint with the college - would you be OK with sending five figure checks to an Institution who tells you "sorry bud, your daughter's stalker has free access to his dorm-stored Glock until the local government has acted"?

Guns in vehicles is also a problematic system; most parking lots are deliberately located far away from campus centers and buildings, or/and campus parking is so restrictive only a fraction of the student body can even drive there at all.Colleges in certain states are obligated by law to let students keep guns in their cars; they are NOT similarly obligated to grant them a place to park on campus .For underclassmen , "keeping a gun in a car" means a two mile hike off campus to a pal's driveway.

So; if we stick to 'guns in cars' , we've undermined the effectiveness of carry because most students wont have access .If we insist on students carrying themselves, we encounter the monster that is unintended consequences.



Regardless, if students choose to have firearms it becomes their duty as adults to be responsible for them. Just because you hung around with immature people, doesn't give a single good justification for denying firearms ownership or carry rights to anyone in this country. Everyone is immature at 18, sure, but last time I checked, the Constitution didn't have a maturity requirement. Thank goodness too, because if it did, virtually no one would have a First Amendment protected right to free speech.

-Rob

I'm of the belief "being an adult " should come before "being a gun owner" where kids are concerned, not the other way 'round. I'd imagine most parents agree.

[RevolverRob]

Unless the subject involves the physical safety of their kids.

With all due respect. Have you ever dealt with or assessed the complaints of unorganized parents vis-a-vis the physical safety of their children? I have. I have been on a university campus, when an activate shooter with an AK walked in and started going. I've seen and dealt with the aftermath of that situation. If you aren't donating 6-digits worth of cash a year to a university, your opinion means diddly and squat to the people in charge regarding safety.


How? Can you teach a modern day 18 year old (not his 1974 contemporary) the importance of physical security? The universities tell parents the dorm buildings are secured with keys and keycards, while their kids prop open doors and open them for unauthorized strangers all the time.

That attitude combined with access to deadly weapons is NOT good.College kids don't care about security ; they're kids mostly unaware of the consequences when one key falls into the wrong hands. Either we spend money on training (waaaa! budget!!) or we spend money on trained LEOs to ensure preservation of security (waaaa! Fascist cops!)

What happens when a student with a gun gets charged with a crime and their weapon needs to be seized ? Property laws can get all kinds of weird when a third party holds prohibited property of another person.Does the college need an FFL to manage the inevitable problem of storing guns for people unable to legally own them mid-semester?

Then there's DV , always a hot issue on college campuses. Should the university now take an active role to disarm students accused of sexual harassment? Would a university-filed complaint be grounds for seizing a students firearm? Lautenberg applies when its a government-associated DV RO...but what about a college processed complaint? Assume your daughter is being stalked and she's filed a complaint with the college - would you be OK with sending five figure checks to an Institution who tells you "sorry bud, your daughter's stalker has free access to his dorm-stored Glock until the local government has acted"?

Guns in vehicles is also a problematic system; most parking lots are deliberately located far away from campus centers and buildings, or/and campus parking is so restrictive only a fraction of the student body can even drive there at all.Colleges in certain states are obligated by law to let students keep guns in their cars; they are NOT similarly obligated to grant them a place to park on campus .For underclassmen , "keeping a gun in a car" means a two mile hike off campus to a pal's driveway.

So; if we stick to 'guns in cars' , we've undermined the effectiveness of carry because most students wont have access .If we insist on students carrying themselves, we encounter the monster that is unintended consequences.

All of these are non-issues, really. The university can require students purchase and use approved firearms safes (i.e., things like California approved storage containers), or can provide access at a security desk that is manned 24/7 if they insist. They already do it, in part, at some universities in the country, where students are allowed to own long-guns and the university provides safe storage. I agree the sexual harassment issue is more pressing. However, the university is under obligation, by Federal Law, to report anyone that they believe to have committed assault or a crime on their campus. Exactly the same type of circumstances that apply to domestic violence outside of a university can apply on it. In fact, that would be a step in the right direction, since it is commonly viewed that university administration does not take various kinds of reports seriously enough. I'll defer to our police colleagues as to what all the proper procedures are, but they do exist.


I'm of the belief "being an adult " should come before "being a gun owner" where kids are concerned, not the other way 'round. I'd imagine most parents agree.

When people turn 18 years old, they can be drafted, they can enlist, they can get married, they can buy guns, they can rent apartments, buy cars, and be tried as adults for every felony they commit. It is my, not so humble opinion, that the legal drinking age, handgun buying age, and concealed carry license age should all be 18 as well. Eighteen year old people are adults under the letter of the law. If their maturity does not reflect that, it is the failure on the part of their guardians or parents, not society. If you're 18 and you can't act and behave like a mature-damn-adult then you should remove yourself from society until such time as you are able to be an adult. Shockingly enough, when I was 18 at college, I had no trouble not acting like a trolling tool-bag and getting into trouble.

I'm sorry, I'm still not buying this bullshit argument. The argument here is, "I'm terrified other people are shitty parents, so I won't let them exercise their constitutional rights." - Well hell if that's the argument we want to make - we should start removing parents rights to free speech. Lord knows they do more damage telling their kids stupid shit, than they do with guns. Or do we think drug and alcohol abuse stem from loving, compassionate, honest, and caring discussions in the home while growing up?

-Rob

[ReverendMeat]

I graduated last year. Never set foot in campus housing and for the first two years I had to take public transportation. I am not a fan of being treated like an away-from-parents-for-the-first-time 18 year old, especially when that treatment results in me being disarmed in the downtown area of a large city (thefts, assaults, muggings, etc happened on about a weekly basis on or near campus) and a bus full of tweakers, frequently at night, and especially when the policies aimed (allegedly) at 18 year olds are irrelevant given state law requires one to be 21 to receive a CHL anyway.

[Luke]

If you are in a sketchy area where things are happening why aren't you carrying anyways? Very concealed obviously. I'm not
Going to openly proclaim on the internet I carry/have carried where it is illegal, but I can tell you that I'd carry regardless of where I was if I felt threatened (other than federal buildings)

[ReverendMeat]

I never said I didn't carry, but whether I did or not is irrelevant; the rule is what the rule is and I would be punished if caught. I resent having to make the choice of risking expulsion vs. risking getting caught with my pants down because of some bullshit feelgood policy.

[Alpha Sierra]

To sell campus carry , we have to face the rational objection by parents sending their kids hundreds of miles away from home at GREAT expense that there also exists the risk of some jackhead plugging his neighbor showing off his carry gun.

That's nowhere even CLOSE to being a rational objection. No fucking way. Their precious little 18 year olds likely around armed people like me more times than they care to imagine.

And yes, I am the father of a teen, in case you or StraitR were wondering.

And why in the hell is anyone talking about 18 year olds anyway? In which state can someone that age get a license to carry a handgun?

[Hawk87]

It should be pointed out that here in Utah, we have had campus carry for a quite a while. I am not sure how long it has been, but I started carrying in 2009 and I know it's been legal since then. There have been zero problems. I was aware of at least 3 other people in my department that carried (stem field), so it's pretty common for people to carry on campus here.

[ST911]

When we say "campus, university, college, etc" what does that mean? What are the averages? I've been on mega campuses covering many square miles, to a single office building otherwise unrecognizable as a U. There are an increasing amount of small, cooperative education center in smaller areas, along with 2-yr or transitional voc-ed facilities.

"Campus carry" is pretty broad...


And why in the hell is anyone talking about 18 year olds anyway? In which state can someone that age get a license to carry a handgun?

Looks like Montana, South Dakota, North Dakota, Indiana, Vermont. Definitely some regional, cultural implications there. Not sure about any of the other constitutional carry states?

[Chance]

Just to add to the conversation, there have been two armed robberies, during broad daylight, on a school day, on my campus, within three days of one another. The first is described here (http://www.theshorthorn.com/news/student-robbed-at-gunpoint-in-lot/article_303bfeda-5047-11e5-af5b-1f29efcd6559.html). The second one happened about an hour ago, and is not presently posted anywhere but the emergency channels. Suspect is considered armed and dangerous, and as of this writing, presently at large.

Again: broad daylight, on a school day, on a campus parking lot, and in the same location as an armed robbery three days earlier. Our campus police do a good job, but they're trying to look after a city-within-a-city. I'm not making a statement, just sharing an observation.

[Luke]

Here in downtown Birmingham. There are robberies ALL the time on campus. The campus is spread through the city so it's kinda a large foot print mixed in with other businesses, but there are always armed robberies. Very sad.

[Alpha Sierra]

......

[Shellback]

Wisconsin's Sheriff Clarke gets it. (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/11/15/exclusive-sheriff-clarke-2nd-amendment-constitutions-bastard-child/)

Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke slammed Wisconsin Democrats’ determined efforts to block campus-carry for self-defense in the state’s universities, even as Americans continuously try to expand personal freedoms.

“We’re always looking to expand the exercise of liberty,” he told Breitbart News. We do it with the First Amendment, we do it with the Fourth Amendment. There are all of these different rulings coming down that say the government overstepped their authority here or went beyond their authority there,” he said.

“Then we act differently with the Second Amendment? The Second Amendment gets treated like the bastard child of the Bill of Rights.”

[RoyGBiv]

Okafor: Rhetoric about effects of campus carry on minorities misplaced (http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/opinion/okafor-rhetoric-about-effects-of-campus-carry-on-m/npPLF/)


As a black woman and a graduate student at UT-Dallas, I have no interest in displaying white male power to slaves, women, African-Americans, or anyone else, and I’m certainly not interested in pushing back against the Civil Rights Movement or promoting an ideology of white racism. I am, however, interested in being able to defend myself should the need arise.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://chronicle.com/interactives/shooting-worries?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en&elq=2df2ba82ffe945369c70e0f31b7dadbd&elqCampaignId=2104&elqaid=7285&elqat=1&elqTrackId=3924fec50bd84ca28c85481d6f507d52

The Chronicle of Higher Ed. asked readers about active shooter fears and collected quite a few responses. Many were in support of carrying a firearm. Mine is in there if you can find it.

Glenn

[GardoneVT]

Based on an informal comment I heard from my fave FFL near my alma matter, some folks are keeping a lot more then just an "emergency hammer" in their desk drawers.

As it stands campus carry is the ultimate "easier to ask forgiveness then permission" exercise.

[Shellback]

The university I attended didn't have metal detectors...

[Shellback]

School District Approves Armed Teachers, Provides the Handguns (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/20/school-district-approves-armed-teachers-provides-handguns/)

On December 16, school board members in Keene, Texas, voted not simply to allow armed teachers, but also to provide the handguns teachers will carry.

Ironically, the effort was supported by Keene Independent School District (ISD) superintendent Ricky Stephens, who opposed arming teachers when hired three years ago. “Now he says the world has changed and so has his opinion.”

According to Fox 5, Keene ISD members “approved a policy that would allow a few select staff members inside its four campuses to carry a gun.” The names of those who will be carrying are being withheld, but the guns they carry will be “provided by the district.”

The district will decide which teachers to arm out of a pool of those who submit their names as wanting to carry a gun...

[Peally]

Getting a free handgun and being told I can carry it at work, that's like a pipe dream.