A health crisis while carrying?

[45dotACP]

In keeping with a few questions regarding healthcare, I found a significant source of inspiration when a patient of mine was admitted to the hospital and while helping him get dressed to leave, I noticed he had a kydex IWB holster on his belt. Empty, but clearly he had been armed the day he had to get to the ER. Being fairly new as a nurse, I wasn't quite sure what to ask him, but he was a retired cop and he let me know he had taken his gun off before getting a ride to the hospital. It brought up a question however:

If you're out of the home, carrying your CCW piece, and you suffer some sort of health crisis that requires hospitalization (car accident, heart attack, stroke etc...) what do you do with your firearm? Nearly every hospital I've ever been to is a no go for carrying. Do the paramedics or police on scene secure your firearm and hold it for you? I'm assuming you'll be telling someone, as paramedics, nurses and doctors tend to be thorough with their assessments, but I'm also assuming you'd be telling the paramedics or cops beforehand.

I suspect our EMT's here might know the answer to this, but I've never thought about it personally. Maybe as an armed civilian however, I should.

Your thoughts?

[TGS]

If there's no person on scene who can hold it for you, it goes with the police.

No idea about what happens in order to get it back.

[Dagga Boy]

A nurse in California was kind enough to have a friend of mine arrested when he was checked in with his pistol. He had it stashed in a drawer in his room while waiting for his ex-wife to come get it. The nurse found it and thought it was best that calling the police and having him charged was a great idea. This is a real issue and it seems like any kind of common sense will be wholly based on individuals at the hospital. There is a huge difference between making a choice to bring a gun to the hospital and just needing up there with it. One would "think" that if people end up in the E/R with a firearm, that the staff would maybe help to arrange for someone to come get pick it up, but the easy thing is to simply call the police, which will likely force it to become a criminal matter in many places.
In many places, the medical community is not your friend. Like law enforcement, this is particularly true of the administrative levels that set policy and making it less than a good decision on a medical employees to try to do the right thing rather than stick to policy.

[Default.mp3]

I made an MVA where one of the parties involved that had to be transported had a firearm. It was secured by LE, not sure what ever happened to it. Our SOP on medical calls (I'm with fire, not EMS) where firearms are discovered incidentally and not the reason for the call is generally to turn the firearm over to LE, even if there was no LE involvement at the time being. No idea how the firearm would be returned.

[DpdG]

From the LE side, I have been to MVAs where patients needed transport while lawfully carrying. I took possession of the firearm roadside and secured it for safekeeping. The only thing I do, beyond unloading it, is run the s/n through NCIC. The patient came to the PD upon release from the hospital and the weapon was returned by either our evidence tech or detectives. No harm, no foul.

It's pretty common practice around here, but I'm also in a friendly state.

[45dotACP]

A nurse in California was kind enough to have a friend of mine arrested when he was checked in with his pistol. He had it stashed in a drawer in his room while waiting for his ex-wife to come get it. The nurse found it and thought it was best that calling the police and having him charged was a great idea. This is a real issue and it seems like any kind of common sense will be wholly based on individuals at the hospital. There is a huge difference between making a choice to bring a gun to the hospital and just needing up there with it. One would "think" that if people end up in the E/R with a firearm, that the staff would maybe help to arrange for someone to come get pick it up, but the easy thing is to simply call the police, which will likely force it to become a criminal matter in many places.
In many places, the medical community is not your friend. Like law enforcement, this is particularly true of the administrative levels that set policy and making it less than a good decision on a medical employees to try to do the right thing rather than stick to policy.

Nyeti, you make soome really good points. We were never actually briefed on what to do if we found a patient with a firearm, so it's a bit of a new one for me. I'm guessing the procedure would be to call our security department. While my patient wasn't armed, I think if he were, I'd make a game effort to call the POA or closest family member.

Then again, my patient's son that was visiting was almost undoubtedly under some sort of influence, so I'm actually glad there wasn't a firearm in play in that case, because I wouldn't have turned a firearm over to him gladly.

That said, there's probably a huge issue with checking in to a hospital and never revealing to anyone that you were armed when you were brought in. It will most certainly be brought to light.

[Paul]

A nurse in California was kind enough to have a friend of mine arrested when he was checked in with his pistol. He had it stashed in a drawer in his room while waiting for his ex-wife to come get it. The nurse found it and thought it was best that calling the police and having him charged was a great idea. This is a real issue and it seems like any kind of common sense will be wholly based on individuals at the hospital. There is a huge difference between making a choice to bring a gun to the hospital and just needing up there with it. One would "think" that if people end up in the E/R with a firearm, that the staff would maybe help to arrange for someone to come get pick it up, but the easy thing is to simply call the police, which will likely force it to become a criminal matter in many places.
In many places, the medical community is not your friend. Like law enforcement, this is particularly true of the administrative levels that set policy and making it less than a good decision on a medical employees to try to do the right thing rather than stick to policy.

I bet that same nurse would lose her mind and call the same cops the scum of the earth if they showed up to arrest someone, that had been admitted to the hospital, for any other charges.

Past practices, the few times I dealt with it, I would release the firearm to a family member or put it in property room. Current practices, because I'm a idiot that is not smart enough to get out of patrol, it's probably going in the property room.

[voodoo_man]

Standard policy is to take possession of firearm and place in the evidence custodians care, which means the firearm will undergo all checks and fbi traces. Furthermore you will probably need to hire a lawyer to get it back (at least for my city you do) otherwise they will give you the firearm back when you show up with valid paperwork stating you are the lawful owners.

No hospitals in my AO allow any patent to carry. When LEOs get injured another LEO has to be present at all times to take possession of their firearm.

[Sensei]

I work in the emergency department. We routinely find firearms on incapacitated patients brought by EMS. All weapons are secured by law enforcement. Stabilization of any emergency medical condition is never delayed simply because you are carrying a weapon - lawfully or otherwise.

Given the hysteria over active shooter situations, most hospitals have institutional policies and training that is mandatory for all employees. For example, we have color code announcements for various contingencies to alert security and law-enforcement such as red for fire, pink for missing newborn, and black for bomb or dangerous weapon. We also have annual web-based training where the test at the end is full of questions that should be answered with "call 911" if you hope to pass. Any hospital employee who does not follow those policies by not reporting a found firearm is likely to be fired. I can't imagine what would happen to them if they ND'ed a weapon that they were holding for a patient's family member. Given these circumstances, the fact that most firearms found in a hospital are illegal, and it is not uncommon for patients to run drug deals out of their hospital bed, I'm not at all surprised that the cops were called when a gun was discovered in a hospital drawer.

[Nephrology]

We also have annual web-based training where the test at the end is full of questions that should be answered with "call 911" if you hope to pass.

Ah, the clickfests. My favorite.

[TGS]

A nurse in California was kind enough to have a friend of mine arrested when he was checked in with his pistol. He had it stashed in a drawer in his room while waiting for his ex-wife to come get it. The nurse found it and thought it was best that calling the police and having him charged was a great idea. This is a real issue and it seems like any kind of common sense will be wholly based on individuals at the hospital. There is a huge difference between making a choice to bring a gun to the hospital and just needing up there with it. One would "think" that if people end up in the E/R with a firearm, that the staff would maybe help to arrange for someone to come get pick it up, but the easy thing is to simply call the police, which will likely force it to become a criminal matter in many places.
In many places, the medical community is not your friend. Like law enforcement, this is particularly true of the administrative levels that set policy and making it less than a good decision on a medical employees to try to do the right thing rather than stick to policy.

The nurse didn't get your friend arrested.

Your friend got himself arrested.

[Sensei]

There are a few very common situations were we find weapon's:

1) During the exposure phase of a resuscitation primary survey. This is basically where we cut all the clothing off people who are really sick or injured.

2) When security does a pat down and personal item inventory on all psych patients under involuntary commitment.

3) On the scout film of people getting a CT of the torso. This is basically a low-energy body x-ray that allows the technologist to configure the orientation of the scan cuts. It also serves as an airport style body scanner for weapons.

4) When nurses perform an inventory of personal items and valuables right before admitted patients go to their inpatient bed.

[ST911]

SOP varies widely by transporting service and receiving facility and can even depend on the call. I know some EMS agencies that will actively seek out someone to take the gun at the scene, or will take it in the bus and hold it for you if you're a local. Likewise, a hospital that will turn it over to security (vs LE) pending arrival of family. Others might go direct to LE, which also depends on what the LEA's practices and preferences are. Being in a gun-friendly area isn't always the big variable, and it depends on the employees too.

When IL rolled out CCW, there were some decent memos with guidance for EMS. They echo what I've seen elsewhere as well:
http://www.illinoisfirechiefs.org/docs/ems-committee/Preliminary%20Concealed%20CarryPolicy%20Guidance%2 0signed%20120913%20JF.do_1.pdf
http://www.mcleancountyems.org/documents/MCAEMSSystemConcealCarryPolicy_January2014_withAtt achments.pdf

I have personal experience with CCW'ing family and friends transported by air and ground without issue. There are good folks out there doing the right thing.

This scenario should be a part of your pre-planning with your significant other or trusted friends. Advice: Have a code word or pseudonym you can use to discuss your gun and other weapons without saying "gun." Conscious patients can guide you. When at or arriving at a scene or facility when the patient can't communicate or isn't available, inquire only about "patient belongings" without specifically mentioning weapons and see where it goes. Many times, patient belongings won't be scrutinized until later in processing. Make no voluntary or unnecessary disclosures even to rescuers and seemingly friendly people.

[Dagga Boy]

The nurse didn't get your friend arrested.

Your friend got himself arrested.

Yep. Some times it sucks to be one an honest to gosh American hero. Guy has a very real need to carry and that comes with risk. The arrest risk is balanced and dealt with.

It is why I left California. I am no longer willing to deal with the risk balance.

Unfortunately, like many places, hospitals have found it easier to have a simply no thought policy of no guns and no discretion. Usually, the only folks seriously affected by this stuff tend to be decent folks who end up in a weird situation (emergency hospital trip, plane diverted to somewhere with different laws than your intended destination, etc) and have nothing to plea bargain the gun charge away with like normal criminals.

It is like the folks getting arrested for having a shotgun hull in their car.......it's their own damn fault, right?

[TGS]

Yep. Some times it sucks to be one an honest to gosh American hero. Guy has a very real need to carry and that comes with risk. The arrest risk is balanced and dealt with.

It is why I left California. I am no longer willing to deal with the risk balance.

Unfortunately, like many places, hospitals have found it easier to have a simply no thought policy of no guns and no discretion. Usually, the only folks seriously affected by this stuff tend to be decent folks who end up in a weird situation (emergency hospital trip, plane diverted to somewhere with different laws than your intended destination, etc) and have nothing to plea bargain the gun charge away with like normal criminals.

It is like the folks getting arrested for having a shotgun hull in their car.......it's their own damn fault, right?

Darryl,

We're adults. We're responsible for our own actions. I don't know the specifics of your friends' story, but I highly doubt he didn't have the ability to declare the firearm and go about handling the issue in the correct manner instead of hiding a gun in a hospital....which is very clearly a very, very bad idea. And you talk about common sense? What was the nurse supposed to do....risk her own job? License? Or even personal freedom for being complicit in what turned out to be a criminal act? Are you serious?

You're always spouting about how people deserve what they get, need to take personal responsibility, or should "harden up." Is that just a good talk you're putting on, or what? You whine more than anyone on this forum, and constantly try to project you/yours in a victimization complex.

[Dagga Boy]

Darryl,

We're adults. We're responsible for our own actions. I don't know the specifics of your friends' story, but I highly doubt he didn't have the ability to declare the firearm and go about handling the issue in the correct manner instead of hiding a gun in a hospital....which is very clearly a very, very bad idea. And you talk about common sense? What was the nurse supposed to do....risk her own job? License? Or even personal freedom for being complicit in what turned out to be a criminal act? Are you serious?

You're always spouting about how people deserve what they get, need to take personal responsibility, or should "harden up." Is that just a good talk you're putting on, or what? You whine more than anyone on this forum, and constantly try to project you/yours in a victimization complex.

In this case, his ex wife was on her way to get it. The guy is missing several appendages and his upper torso is covered in burn scar tissue. Not your obvious dirt bag. He took the beef and did what he needed to. Friend made a choice.....get some critical medical treatment or not because he had a pistol on him. Made arrangements as soon as possible to get the gun out of the hospital with a responsible party. Nurse made a choice to call LE. Is what it is. My "point" to all this is it would be nice if there was a means for some of these not to be LE problems. I have said numerous times I the past that I have made the decision while a cop to help out folks who are decent citizens who have made some errors due to the complexities of California's gun laws to alleviate the situation with some decency and common sense. With that said, I totally understand why folks today will no longer do this and it is easier to simply follow policy and look out for themselves. It is the way our society has evolved. My pal didn't cry over the situation. He made. A choice of getting medical care and not dumping a gun in a trash can where it could end up in the wrong hands.

Many folks here, including myself could easily find ourselves in this situation. Going in folks should understand, even with a CCW, valid firearms carry justification, etc....you could wind up with a criminal case with the right combination of people and circumstances. For those carrying in states with Constitutional carry, this could be a major issue as well.

I used this to illustrate that the decision of a medical worker could land you in a court room or jail after an un-planned trip to an ER. Just like an un-planned detour of a plane flight. Keep that in mind.

I ll be done with this thread now, as I "whine more than anyone on this forum".

[dbateman]

The nurse didn't get your friend arrested.

Your friend got himself arrested.

This guy...

[Hambo]

My wife is a nurse. She says that a lot of weapons come in not on a person but in their belongings. Security stores them and you get them back when you leave, assuming you aren't headed to jail for whatever brought you there.

As I've reached middle age I've thought about this question and my plan is simple. If I'm not home and call EMS, I'll ask them to have the cops take custody of my guns. If I get myself to the ER I'll leave them in the car and have my wife get them when she can. My immediate goal is surviving whatever makes me seek emergency care, not what happens to a couple of pistols.

[Mike C]

I would have zero aversion to strip a slide and throw the entire top half of a gun in the trash along with my mags if necessary.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In Texas, I went to a TX Med Clinic as feeling unwell. I was told that I had no measurable blood pressure and the Doc called the ambulance. Hmm! I was walking and talking and not of the living dead but he insisted I was checking out. Oh, dear. So, I said I have to go to my car - he had a nurse follow me to see if I would drop dead. No I didn't and I stashed the gun in the car. Ambulance got there and the EMTs could find my blood pressure (doc was a quack), but off to the ER - after a day there, the problem was diagnosed, I lived - got a lift to the car and retrieved it. Now, this wasn't an incapacitating incident but just sharing. I had measurable blood pressure at the ER - so that doc was a little off.

[Chance]

I was told that I had no measurable blood pressure and the Doc called the ambulance.

So much for common sense....

[BehindBlueI's]

Here if no family member or the like is available, we'll (we being the PD) will take it to the property room, enter it as personal property submitted for safe keeping (as opposed to evidence, forfeiture, or found property) and the person can reclaim it once they are able to. The person must submit finger prints and submit to a check for warrants and disqualifiers to owning a firearm to get it back. Those steps didn't use to happen until a cop was killed by a mental suspect who retrieved his guns from the property room prior to killing his mother and then shooting it out with the police, so the new system went into place.

[Luke]

I would have zero aversion to strip a slide and throw the entire top half of a gun in the trash along with my mags if necessary.

I thought on most guns the frame was considered "the gun"

[Mike C]

Wannabe,

I am unsure about every states definition of a firearm but where I was certified a firearm is defined through the penal code as: a device designed, made or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel using energy created by an explosion, it can also be any device readily convertible for that use. Not word for word but it's pretty close.

If you lose the slide and everything attached to it along with those projectiles I don't see how it would stand up in court you brought a firearm into a medical facility. Now, I do understand that ATF's definition of a firearm may be different and I am no lawyer but I wouldn't be stressing about ATF. I would be worried about what the PC states in your state. Honestly if I had no safe/responsible way to store or give the weapon so someone I trust I'll take my chances and ditch as much as I responsibly can minus the frame.

[PD Sgt.]

From the LE side, I have been to MVAs where patients needed transport while lawfully carrying. I took possession of the firearm roadside and secured it for safekeeping. The only thing I do, beyond unloading it, is run the s/n through NCIC. The patient came to the PD upon release from the hospital and the weapon was returned by either our evidence tech or detectives. No harm, no foul.

It's pretty common practice around here, but I'm also in a friendly state.

Pretty much the same where I am at. Turn the weapon in for safekeeping after checking for stolen and making sure the CHL is valid. They can pick it up at our Property Facility with ID when they get out.

[Paul]

Wannabe,

I am unsure about every states definition of a firearm but where I was certified a firearm is defined through the penal code as: a device designed, made or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel using energy created by an explosion, it can also be any device readily convertible for that use. Not word for word but it's pretty close.

If you lose the slide and everything attached to it along with those projectiles I don't see how it would stand up in court you brought a firearm into a medical facility. Now, I do understand that ATF's definition of a firearm may be different and I am no lawyer but I wouldn't be stressing about ATF. I would be worried about what the PC states in your state. Honestly if I had no safe/responsible way to store or give the weapon so someone I trust I'll take my chances and ditch as much as I responsibly can minus the frame.

That plan does not pass the smell test. The frame is the firearm. If I got that call at a hospital, you'd be under arrest, you're not getting anymore visitors, there's going to be someone babysitting you, you're going to jail when you get released, and in the meantime we're going to try to figure out what sort of shady ass activities you were engaged in that would compel you to dispose of a firearm in pieces. If you want to look like you're up to something that warrants lots of police attention, that's far up on the list. This squarely falls in the category of you may beat the rap, but you're not going to beat the ride.

It's easy for you or a lawyer to explain, that you had a medical emergency and you were transported to a hospital, and when you were mentally and/or capably of doing so you surrendered your firearm. What can you say to explain away why you were destroying forensic evidence? I can't promise any particular outcome, but given the choice I wouldn't want to be in the hot seat explaining the latter.

[Peally]

It's generally prudent to take the same approach to medical personnel as with any person: even if there's a fine legal way to have a non-issue expect them to be a-holes.

No offence intended towards the fine folks here but as with any profession there seems to be an epidemic of jackasses and stupid people, so it's best to prepare for the worse.

[BehindBlueI's]

That plan does not pass the smell test. The frame is the firearm. If I got that call at a hospital, you'd be under arrest, you're not getting anymore visitors, there's going to be someone babysitting you, you're going to jail when you get released, and in the meantime we're going to try to figure out what sort of shady ass activities you were engaged in that would compel you to dispose of a firearm in pieces. If you want to look like you're up to something that warrants lots of police attention, that's far up on the list. This squarely falls in the category of you may beat the rap, but you're not going to beat the ride.

It's easy for you or a lawyer to explain, that you had a medical emergency and you were transported to a hospital, and when you were mentally and/or capably of doing so you surrendered your firearm. What can you say to explain away why you were destroying forensic evidence? I can't promise any particular outcome, but given the choice I wouldn't want to be in the hot seat explaining the latter.

This. Most every state is going to have some version of "knowingly and intentionally" in their statutes. If you get KO'd and taken to the hospital and they find your gun, you weren't knowingly or intentionally. If you get injured and tell the EMT you are carrying, even if they take you there you did what you could and I would argue that is not "knowingly and intentionally". Walking in with it, intentionally hiding it, etc, that's going to show both knowledge and intent. Dismantling and ditching pieces? That's a real big red flag. I'd hate to be the guy who did that who happens to show up at the hospital a bit after a robbery happens and he matches the description...

[dgg9]

I confess I carry less than I used to due to angst for this exact issue.

[voodoo_man]

I confess I carry less than I used to due to angst for this exact issue.

...you are worried about dealing with a firearn if you have a medical issue?

You arent worried about a medical issue stemming from not carrying?

[dgg9]

...you are worried about dealing with a firearn if you have a medical issue?

You arent worried about a medical issue stemming from not carrying?

In my uber-safe AO, carrying isn't the same imperative it is when I travel nearer to Philly or its inner ring suburbs. My local travels are safe enough that I can indulge this angst. All I can say is, a couple of ER trips plus other medical issues can knock down your confidence a bit.

[Peally]

Sheboygan Falls was "uber-safe" before that kid beat his grandmother's skull in...

Just saying.

[dgg9]

Sheboygan Falls was "uber-safe" before that kid beat his grandmother's skull in...

Just saying.

Objective risk assessment is all about numbers. That said, I think all of us are to some degree subjective about risks. When I lived in Philly, I carried all the time. But by any measure it's much less dangerous where I now live.

[Mike C]

That plan does not pass the smell test. The frame is the firearm. If I got that call at a hospital, you'd be under arrest, you're not getting anymore visitors, there's going to be someone babysitting you, you're going to jail when you get released, and in the meantime we're going to try to figure out what sort of shady ass activities you were engaged in that would compel you to dispose of a firearm in pieces. If you want to look like you're up to something that warrants lots of police attention, that's far up on the list. This squarely falls in the category of you may beat the rap, but you're not going to beat the ride.

It's easy for you or a lawyer to explain, that you had a medical emergency and you were transported to a hospital, and when you were mentally and/or capably of doing so you surrendered your firearm. What can you say to explain away why you were destroying forensic evidence? I can't promise any particular outcome, but given the choice I wouldn't want to be in the hot seat explaining the latter.


Paul, I appreciate the kindness but just come out and say you think its bullshit and don't beat around the bush, I won't be offended.

Frankly, you may absolutely be correct in beating the rap but not the ride. Who knows this is all theoretical. But given the state of the political climate and law enforcement I won't take a chance and I give two shits about what anyone thinks about my actions. Look, I don't know where you are in the states so I can't say what you would or wouldn't, should or shouldn't do, what your department policy is, or what your PC states. What I can and will tell you is that according to TX penal code the frame is not a firearm, period it is a part. It is not readily assembled to function as a firearm nor does it function as a firearm without the correct parts. So I'd sure love to see how that would play out, theoretically of course.

If you rolled up and arrested some dude/me for having a frame in a hospital in Texas I don't see how that would fly. Would it be your call, yeah. Would you have PC to detain me and find out WTF is going on. Absolutely, but I doubt you'd have what you need to keep me detained, or arrest and process me. Frankly if you had your head on straight and asked the right questions and didn't jump to conclusions about what is going on it would be easy to explain. That you are right about. To put it simply you reaction to my statement further convinces me that common sense and benefit of the doubt is damn near gone. Given all the CYA attitude and general bullshit that fly's around nowadays I'd sure as shit be worried to get tossed in county after taking a trip in and ambulance and not having the ability to check a firearm. (Most of my encounters with medical personnel when I was on duty for the short time I wore a badge wasn't all that great.) There is a large propensity to over react with anything related to a firearm or weapon in my experience limited experience.

It is unfortunate so few use common sense or they are to worried about being thrown under the bus by admin to do the right thing. I for one will do what I need to to make sure I'm not made and example of or be a victim of the system because common sense laws or policies are not in place to cover my ass, or because I don't carry dept. credentials at the moment. I'm not saying that I'm right man but the world we live in gives me pause before I trust someone else to do the right thing.

[Mike C]

I forget who posted about the mental culpability but they are as follows: intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence.