Who here carries a 1911 appendix?

[SLG]

Do we ever get sick of appendix threads?

As a nod to GJM, this one has a poll in it as well. :-)

How many of you carry 1911's appendix? (I doubt very many)

Of those of you who do, what is your concealed draw time to a 7 yard A zone/down zero type target?

Is that time the same as, or faster or slower than your time with another gun, carried and shot the same way?

Thanks in advance.

[TCinVA]

I do sometimes. Wilson CQB 9mm.

Good question. I'm not entirely sure on that. The last timed draws I did with the CQB were not on an IDPA style target. They were on a photorealistic "Bruce Willis' Crackhead Cousin" style target like this one:

3709

When we did timed draws from concealment I was pulling 1.2 or less with shots in the goodie box of the target at 7 as best I can recall.

I imagine the last question is the point...am I faster with the CQB than with other pistols? I'd say slightly faster on the shooting stuff, slightly slower on reloads. (Single stack syndrome) The difference is likely primarily explained by the trigger on the 1911...or, more accurately, how aggressive I think I can be on that trigger and still make the shot.

Make sense?

[Kyle Reese]

This cat named SLG does. I think. :cool:

[DocGKR]

While I stopped using a 1911 at the end of 2009, I carried one AIWB for two decades. Depending on clothing, time for D1 on A-zone at 7 yds (approx 1-1.2 sec) were quicker with the 1911 than I can do now, but that is more a function of practice time, youth, and good eyes than anything to do with the pistol type.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/GKRAIWB1911DCU_zps8891822f.jpg

[Matt O]

I started carrying a mostly stock XSE at the beginning of the summer given it conceals a bit better for me among a wider range of seasonally appropriate clothing. Despite the ease of the trigger, my draw to first shot is still slower than with a beretta or glock carried appendix. On a 7 yard A zone target, draws with a beretta 92 are around 1.2 versus around 1.5 with the 1911. This is the very first pistol I've ever owned or practiced with that has a manual safety, so I've found that the grip acquisition part of the draw is where I'm losing most of my time.

In addition, even though all I heard prior to owning a 1911 was how the "all steel frame soaks up the recoil," I think I may just be a weakling because my splits are far far slower with the 1911 than with the 92 :D. For example, repeatable bill drill times for me would be: 92 (1.2, .20 splits) vs 1911 (1.5, .30-35 splits). Admittedly I have been battling some tendinits on and off for the last couple years so perhaps my grip strength is just not where it needs to be.

[YVK]

SLG,

I carried mine for a little within last 4 years, a 5 inch .45 ACP. At the time when I did my first shot / draw was no different from G19 and P30, although now I am faster with 30 than 19 so there could be a difference from a 1911 too. However, at that time period I only practiced a draw to a 3x5 so I don't have a data for a big target. Within a context of a FAST, the biggest difference (and pain) was a reload; my first shot from IWB was under 3 sec.

I intend to return to carrying a 1911 by October / November, pending an arrival of a very special one. WiIl have more data then.

[GJM]

Not sure what thread it is in, but I recall TLG posting an exhaustive comparison of his FAST component times between his 1911 and Glock 17.

[GJM]

Here it is, post 341 in Todd's training journal.


9-Aug-13
NRA Range, 7hr (split over three separate practice sessions)
~1,400 rounds

GOALS: solidify grip, work on tracking & marksmanship, verify -017 working properly after return from SACS


I started with 5-shot draws to a 3x5 at 10yd followed by 5-shot draws to the 8" at the same distance. I paused before pressing out on each draw to verify or correct my grip.
Shot DotTor at 7yd and scored a miserable 44. I identified two specific problems. First, somewhere along the way I started putting a lot more finger through the trigger guard than I used to. It was pulling the gun slightly to the left (probably exacerbating the grip issue I discovered previously). Second, I was having a very difficult time getting clear focus on the front sight dot (which is what I use as an aiming point). The orange paint on my front sight had dulled -- probably just muzzle debris accumulation. On a lark, based on things Gabe has said in the forum and backchannel to me previously, I decided to take another stab at running the front sight black instead of orange. It seemed to work pretty well. While I didn't repeat DotTor, I did a bunch of moderate speed drills on 2" circles at 7yd and got much more consistent hits than my slowfire DotTor attempts.
A big chunk of the day was spent shooting 2-, 3-, and 5-shot drills with short loaded magazines to verify consistent lockback. In particular I did a lot of three mag drills (2R2R2, for instance) to make sure I was reacquiring my grip properly after the reload as well as on the draw. I burned through a ton of ammo doing this. Every time I'd have a failure to lock back I'd slow down and be more conscious about acquiring my grip, speeding up again gradually.
Some of the high round count "burst drill" stuff happened after I blacked out my front sight and I didn't see or feel any drop in speed or confidence with my hits at speed.
As the day came to an end I had 300rd left and thought, naturally, that I should shoot 50 FASTs. Most interesting to me was how the numbers compared to the first time I did 50 FAST with this gun and the last 50 FAST runs I did with other guns:


ExpertAdvancedIntermediateAvg% 3x5 hits% 8” hitsDraw3x5 splitR/L8” splits
SACS/Warren today341335.0696%99.50%1.600.422.270.20
SACS/Warren 09/12172855.6188%97.00%1.540.432.380.21
Glock 17251785.1283%96.50%1.430.401.810.20
HK45301275.5485%96.50%1.570.522.030.23

(the HK45 also had one Beginner score, a 10.07!)

The biggest difference is that my scores today were incredibly consistent. My draw was slower than I'd like because I was being careful about my grip... there's a solid quarter second to be recovered there. My accuracy -- especially to the head box -- was far better than it's ever been. I didn't have any spectacular runs; my best was just a 4.41 clean. But with the exception of a few fumbled reloads nothing really bad happened, either. My only sub-2 reload was immediately after missing the followup head shot and immediately before missing the first body shot... because I was all about getting the reload done quickly and didn't fire either bookend shot well.

Here are the raw numbers from today:

HeadBodyDrawSplitReloadSplitSplitSplit
4.77001.570.392.210.210.210.18
4.78001.660.462.100.190.190.18
4.72001.610.382.140.180.200.21
4.89001.540.362.450.180.190.17
7.39101.710.432.680.190.190.19
5.12001.610.412.440.210.230.22
4.60001.620.372.070.190.180.17
4.91001.620.372.360.200.180.18
4.87001.630.382.280.190.190.20
5.46001.750.472.410.200.190.44
5.35001.670.782.290.200.200.21
4.81001.680.392.190.190.180.18
4.90001.680.472.180.190.190.19
5.39001.590.432.830.190.180.17
4.88001.640.382.270.200.190.20
4.85001.650.432.220.190.180.18
4.79001.580.352.330.180.170.18
4.43001.490.362.040.190.170.18
6.76101.530.422.260.190.180.18
4.97001.720.442.240.190.200.18
4.95001.470.402.510.200.190.18
4.83001.650.422.130.210.210.21
4.94001.560.432.400.190.180.18
5.02001.650.452.330.190.200.20
4.96001.600.432.350.210.190.18
4.55001.540.382.060.210.180.18
4.78001.510.372.260.220.220.20
5.06001.650.462.340.220.190.20
5.24001.570.542.590.190.170.18
5.01001.640.402.360.210.200.20
4.81001.530.412.270.200.200.20
4.45001.440.432.040.180.180.18
4.54001.540.342.110.190.180.18
7.30111.460.351.980.180.170.16
4.69001.600.392.100.190.200.21
5.29001.850.402.470.200.190.18
4.73001.510.422.240.200.180.18
4.41001.520.352.010.180.180.17
7.45101.590.532.330.480.260.26
5.37001.620.432.770.190.190.17
4.52001.610.372.010.170.190.17
4.72001.610.332.150.220.210.20
4.97001.680.372.350.200.180.19
4.78001.620.372.180.200.210.20
5.04001.620.442.360.210.200.21
4.83001.670.392.190.200.190.19
4.69001.590.382.160.190.180.19
5.08001.650.522.330.190.200.19
4.55001.510.372.070.210.200.19
4.69001.630.432.100.180.180.17

[JAD]

I carry 1911s -- mostly at 2:45 but occasionally I wear the gun in the appendix position. Last time I made it to the range with that configuration I was around 1.8-2.0 seconds to a 3x5 at 7 (sorry to not have a direct answer); that's comparable to my 2:45 times. I think that was with a JMCK rig; with my SME I'm probably a tad slower. All of my concealed draw times are roughly comparable. For context, I usually shoot a 7-8 second FAST.

[Wondering Beard]

I used to until 2004 or thereabout (1991 gov't model worked over by Ted Yost back when he was the smithy at Gunsite, reworked later by Jim Garthwaite)

I don't remember my exact times but I could easily do the basic Gunsite drill of two to the chest in 1.5 seconds (from the draw concealed) at 7 yards.

Nowadays it's a G19 (sometimes G23) in the same position. Before my medical difficulties, I had no problem with the drill either but I don't remember my exact times. I think the weight of the 1911 compensated for the recoil of the 45 ACP round (230gr ball factory) making the time difference with a G19 (if there was any) irrelevant.

Nowadays it's likely slower because I'm older and slower but I haven't timed myself. I don't think there would be enough of a difference anyway. Size and weight leads to my preference for the G19 not shootability.

[AJZ]

I carry a full size 1911 AIWB every day, and before switching to it earlier this year I was carrying a 2011 style full size AIWB everyday.

Avg draw at 7 yards to an "A" zone is 1.18s last time I collected data, carried in a Keepers AIWB under a polo.

The time is faster than on previous guns, though I feel that has more to do with major changes to my practice regime now versus previous guns.

[Vinh]

Since the forum's Rogers class several years back, I have been carrying a Springfield Pro in an SME.

My draw time from legit concealment is 2 seconds. Draw times with other guns from Shaggies are the same.

[StraitR]

I carried a 19 in a Keepers (made for a G17) for a little over 3 years before going back to a 1911 late last year (ref my post (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11538-The-Passion-of-the-Gun&p=274304&viewfull=1#post274304) in Passion of the Gun). I have carried said 1911 in a Milt Sparks SS2, but I'm really thinking I need to order a Keepers for it. At this point I prefer appendix carry, and aside from being quicker, easier to conceal and defend, the weight of the all steel CQBE feels much better up front.

I guess this would be a good time to research other appendix holsters as well.

[Paladin]

StraitR check out the SME from 5 shot John seems like a really good guy and makes a great product I'm going to get one for my Wilson tactical carry.
Rick

[StraitR]

StraitR check out the SME from 5 shot John seems like a really good guy and makes a great product I'm going to get one for my Wilson tactical carry.
Rick

Will do. Thanks for the suggestion, Rick.

[SLG]

Thanks for all the replies so far. More than I would have thought. I asked because I'm having some issues with my aiwb draw with my 1911. From a strong side holster, my times are identical with the 1911 or anything else I have used. For comparison's sake, full speed (meaning I'm likely to hit an a zone at 7 yards but cannot guarantee it) is between .8 and .9. Very likely is .9-10. On demand hits are 1-1.1. Aiwb with a Glock is the same. Aiwb with my 1911 is more like 1.20. BIG difference. I noticed this in January, and talked to most of my shooting friends about it. No one one had any ideas. Some suggested talking to other well known trainers who also used 1911's and Glocks. They had no idea either. Turns out they also don't really understand aiwb very well. Should have been a clue to me.

I have come to the conclusion that the angle of the 1911 in my holster, combined with the angle my hand needs to be at to have a high flagged thumb to deal with the safety, is not compatible for me with aiwb and a tight to the body holster. My fingers need more space to get a master grip in the holster, and they just don't have it. At my old draw speeds, it was never a problem. 1.10-1.20 was as fast as I was. The issue only comes up in trying to go as fast as I am used to with the Glocks. I can either get a great master grip, and not be in position to deal with the safety (obviously a no go), or I can deal with the safety and not get a proper grip (also a no go). I probably haven't explained this well enough, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

I'm already working on and with different holster designs to address this, but I suspect it will be quite a while before I have a full solution.

[GJM]

I actually spoke to Robbie Leatham about his 1911 draw, the grip safety and the thumb safety. He said that he has to be able to shoot a range of 1911 pistols, and has developed a technique where his initial grip is to get a proper grip activating the grip safety (regardless of how that grip safety is tuned). He does not worry about the thumb safety, until after he has his initial grip and the gun is extending to the target -- way later than I would have guessed. Using that method, I watched him make a first attempt hit on a smallish steel at 15ish yards in, as I recall, .72 seconds. Taadski was there and may refresh my recollection.

You might see if getting your initial grip while disregarding considering the thumb safety speeds up the process.

[StraitR]

SLG-

With an extremely quick .8-.9 draw as a baseline, any variances to what is used to achieve optimum performance will introduce a time delay. Mentally monitoring quality of grip will certainly affect draw speed, just like it does on a novice. Change in draw geometry, "angles" as you put it, will have a negative impact. Both of these you have mentioned.

I would also add any physical changes, mainly weight, should also be considered. If you're moving as quickly as you can with the Glocks, it's safe to say that you're using maximum force to do so. If you increase the weight of what you're moving by 30-40%, but not increase the force used, it will not be done with the same level of efficiency.

I would suspect that the cause is not a singular one, but rather multiple, compounded factors. Simply assigning a modest .1 penalty to each of the variances above (grip, angles, weight), immediately introduces a nearly 30% increase in time, and right at your 1.20 1911 speed.

[SLG]

Again, thanks to all who responded.

StraitR, I think you are mostly correct, but my 1911 draw from an ALS holster or an open top holster is also in the .8-.9 range, so while the angle is different, I don't think weight is an issue though I get what you're saying and I could be wrong.

GJM,

I spoke to Jason Burton about that very issue, and I think you and he are on to something. I have been playing with my draw the last 24 hours or so, and I think I may have a solution. I'll try it on the range next week and report back.

[SLG]

Again, thanks to all who responded.

StraitR, I think you are mostly correct, but my 1911 draw from an ALS holster or an open top holster is also in the .8-.9 range, so while the angle is different, I don't think weight is an issue though I get what you're saying and I could be wrong.

GJM,

I spoke to Jason Burton about that very issue, and I think you and he are on to something. I have been playing with my draw the last 24 hours or so, and I think I may have a solution. I'll try it on the range next week and report back.

[Matt O]

I can either get a great master grip, and not be in position to deal with the safety (obviously a no go), or I can deal with the safety and not get a proper grip (also a no go). I probably haven't explained this well enough, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.


I spoke to Jason Burton about that very issue, and I think you and he are on to something. I have been playing with my draw the last 24 hours or so, and I think I may have a solution. I'll try it on the range next week and report back.

This is the exact problem I am having and in fact you explained it way better than I did in alluding to my grip woes in my earlier post. The grip acquisition is where I'm losing my time because trying to go too fast often results in, as you indicated, either a crappy grip and potentially not fully disengaged grip safety, or a solid grip but awkward leverage on the thumb safety. I also sometimes have issues seating my support hand too high and impeding the full motion of the thumb safety, but that has been easier to diagnose and fix.

Either way I look forward to any insights you come across as you're experimenting with your solution.

[WDW]

I did for about a day then realized it was a terrible idea...for me anyways

[SLG]

Update.

I can't draw a 1911 as fast from appendix as I can a Glock. From a strong side holster, both are identical.

I think that the issue is the angle that the grip needs to sit for me to carry and conceal the 1911, combined with the angle my hand needs to be at to get a good grip and be able to disengage the safety. On the strong side, those angles fall into place nicely. Not so much aiwb. I think I could improve my times if I really went at it, but I have other things to work on before that. The Glock just makes it easy.

[Robinson]

I carry a Colt Commander at about 2:00 OWB and it works really well for me.

[SLG]

I carry a Colt Commander at about 2:00 OWB and it works really well for me.

Ok. What holster? Concealed?

[JTQ]

SLG,

Bob Reed, an administrator over at Handguns and Ammunition forum has commented he uses a C. Rusty Sherrick Dual Use Cross Draw holster and carries at 2:00ish http://www.c-rusty.com/pages/holsters/cross.html

Here are a couple of threads where he talks about his carry use, this is with the Dual Use Cross Draw http://www.handgunsandammunition.com/holsters-gun-accessories/9961-dual-use-cross-draw-holster-p-s-p-double-magazine-carrier-rusty-sherrick.html#post91073

This is his experiment with a C. Rusty Sherrick AIWB http://www.handgunsandammunition.com/holsters-gun-accessories/10781-i-w-b-appendix-carry-holster-rusty-sherrick.html

[newyork]

Occasionally carrying a full size 1911 in a 5Shot SME at 12:30/1:00. Have only done dry fire draws with the combo. Haven't been to the range with my 1911s in a while due to ammo cost.

[Robinson]

Ok. What holster? Concealed?

BlackPoint Tactical. They are made not too far from where I live.

Yes, it conceals easily at 2:00 (for me) under an un-tucked T-shirt or polo. I do wear somewhat loose-fitting shirts made of heavier material.

[Luke]

What is your general body shape? 2 for me would look like a giant pistol sticking out of my shit lol

[Robinson]

What is your general body shape? 2 for me would look like a giant pistol sticking out of my shit lol

5'11" and 235 lbs. Not a big gut.

The bore of the pistol is at about 1:30, the butt is at 2:00. Should have mentioned that.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I do a 1911 in an SME. It disappears completely. Thin grips, stiff belt, tall guy without too much gut.

Works well, but for extended sessions I'd prefer the gen 2 SME, I think. After however many draws at ECQC, I was missing skin on my middle knuckle. That doesn't happen after 2 hours of training but after a day...yeah,

Although I am a medium-large guy and I have XXL hands and my fingers are thick.


Anyway, I'm no faster doing a 1911 AIWB than I am with a three o'clock glock. But I'm more concealed. I think the best time I can remember offhand was 0.88 on a 3x5@10y. But that was when I was shooting more. I'm not sure what it would be today. I'll see if I can get some times this weekend. They'll be slower, though, for sure.

[newyork]

Sorry for the bathroom pics...

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt134/rslamiroult/20150827_102630.jpg (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/rslamiroult/media/20150827_102630.jpg.html)

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt134/rslamiroult/20150827_150833.jpg (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/rslamiroult/media/20150827_150833.jpg.html)

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt134/rslamiroult/IMG_20150825_174849.jpg (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/rslamiroult/media/IMG_20150825_174849.jpg.html)

[Luke]

That's crazy! How does the frame of the gun stay tucked in to your body so well? If I put anything past my centerline like that it sticks straight out. I probably have a five gallon bucket of fat more than you, that might be it. Using kydex holsters are you able to conceal just as good?

[newyork]

I'm 5' 10" 158lbs. I don't have a kydex aiwb 1911 holster at the moment. I think my Dark Star G19 and Deltac G19 AIWB holsters hold the gun pretty close but maybe not as close in as this 5 Shot does with the 1911.
It has a little nub that helps aid in snugging the gun up.

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt134/rslamiroult/IMG_20150703_132516.jpg (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/rslamiroult/media/IMG_20150703_132516.jpg.html)

[taadski]

I'd prefer the gen 2 SME, I think. After however many draws at ECQC, I was missing skin on my middle knuckle.

What's a "gen 2" SME? I know John has made some custom versions (to include the one I carry daily) but has he changed the basic design formally?

I remember reading that the SME design for the 1911 was made with more muzzle rake than the design for other pistols. I'm sure SLG is aware of that given he was a contributor/tester to the original design but.... Could it be that some of the draw variance being noted is a function of that somehow? Just spitballing.

FWIW, I straight up don't draw as fast from my SME as I do from other appendix holsters (same location, same gun). I don't believe it's a leather vs kydex issue; more it's the fact that the SME sits so low on the belt line and tucks the butt of the pistol in as tightly as it does. I get the knuckle bruise doing extended draw work too, incidentally. The revision John did for me has the wing height reduced to fix this. It helped but my knuckle still hits my belt. Anybody played with his higher-rise loops? I've been meaning to order a set.

While I've made strives at whittling the speed difference down, it takes more of a scoop style draw to do so and I really don't like the other ramifications of that. I've come to accept the .15 or .2 slower draw speed in exchange for the additional comfort and concealment elements the holster offers.



Using that method, I watched him make a first attempt hit on a smallish steel at 15ish yards in, as I recall, .72 seconds. Taadski was there and may refresh my recollection.

I remember the drill, G, and the draw but he was shooting his XDM (from a bladetech) that whole day. Not to take away from your point.



t