So which DA/SA is the Glock 19 of hammer guns?

[GJM]

The title says it all. There are a number of good choices in Glock 19 sized DA/SA pistols. Some of the likely suspects are the HK P2000, CZ P07, Beretta PX4 Compact, and the Sig 228/229.

What are the pro's and con's of each?

[1986s4]

For me the P07 comes the closest, although I sold my early version since it wouldn't eject partially empty mags. My only objection to my SIG P225 is the placement of the slide catch otherwise it is perfect for me.
No experience with the Beretta.

[breakingtime91]

Hopefully this isn't a drift but is there much of a difference between a gadget equipped G19 vs any hammer fire gun of similar size?

[Cool Breeze]

When you say Glock 19 - are you just referring to size? Or perhaps other attributes of it - such as weight/reliability/track record/cost/etc.?

[TGS]

Can you clarify what you mean by "the Glock 19 of DA/SA guns?"

Popularity/prevalence throughout the word, industry, ect? Parts availability and aftermarket support? Robustness or reliability? Simplicity of design?

I don't think it's a concept I can wrap my head around, but I also think Glock's are the bottom-rung of what can be considered a serviceable sidearm.

If anything, I'd say it'd be a CZ, because it's as cheap as you can get while still making a gun that will function most of the time. I don't think you could label the P229 or P2000 the G19 of DA/SA guns, because they're representative of something entirely different than what a Glock is.

[breakingtime91]

Can you clarify what you mean by "the Glock 19 of DA/SA guns?"

Popularity/prevalence throughout the word, industry, ect? Parts availability and aftermarket support? Robustness or reliability? Simplicity of design?

I don't think it's a concept I can wrap my head around, but I also think Glock's are the bottom-rung of what can be considered a serviceable sidearm.

If anything, I'd say it'd be a CZ, because it's as cheap as you can get while still making a gun that will function most of the time. I don't think you could label the P229 or P2000 the G19 of DA/SA guns, because they're representative of something entirely different than what a Glock is.

How are glocks bottom-rung?

[TGS]

How are glocks bottom-rung?

It's the entire point the pistol has become so successful. It's a pistol that is made as cheaply as possible to hopefully fire most of the time.

So cheaply, they have a pretty strong history over the last couple decades of using the market to wring out their design/manufacturing flaws.

If anything, I think the Glock 19 of the DA/SA world is a Makarov, P64, CZ82/83. They're made as cheaply as possible to maintain a modicum of reliability.

ETA: Essentially, to me and what I think of the Glock, we're asking what is the Ford Model - T of hammer guns?

[breakingtime91]

okay then..

[GJM]

I don't think many would argue that the Glock 19 is the most common/popular/successful/pick-your-own word, carry gun based on its size, performance and plenty more attributes. It is big enough to run with larger guns, while still small enough for most to conceal it.

An attribute of the Glock is it a striker design. That is a plus for some people and a minus for others.

My question is what is, or what should be the DA/SA equivalent to the Glock 19?

[ranger]

I am trying a P07 for carry and a P09 for IDPA and other competition. I think the P07 can fill that DA/SA "Glock 19 like" niche. Only negative I have found to the P07 is the more expensive magazines. I think a M&P 9mm mag can be modified to fit a P07 but I have not pursued that alternative.

[breakingtime91]

I am trying a P07 for carry and a P09 for IDPA and other competition. I think the P07 can fill that DA/SA "Glock 19 like" niche. Only negative I have found to the P07 is the more expensive magazines. I think a M&P 9mm mag can be modified to fit a P07 but I have not pursued that alternative.

eh, buy 5 (two for carry) and shoot the shit out of the other three until you can afford more

[Cool Breeze]

I don't think any hammered fire pistol can check off all the boxes that a glock can. So I still think it depends on what virtues of a glock you are speaking of. I think a Sig P229 probably comes close but you are talking about a pistol that weighs substantially more. It is also harder to conceal because of how thick it is. It also costs twice the price on average.

[The Apprentice]

I would say size wise p2000 or P07. I think the sig 229/228 and beretta are a little thick but the sigs seem to be the most popular.

[ReverendMeat]

I'd say the CZ P-01, it's closer in size to the 19 than the P-07 or P229 are.

[Father of 3]

Another vote for the CZ P-01/PCR.

[xray 99]

Sig Pro 2022

[jwperry]

Sig Pro 2022

This is what I was going to say; as far as size, weight and cost go it would be the most equivalent.

Aftermarket support and longevity would have to be the P228/229 series though. Then the P2000 and then the rest.

[Kyle Reese]

Sig Pro 2022

Yup. Best 9x19 handgun for the money, IMO.

[SteveB]

I don't think many would argue that the Glock 19 is the most common/popular/successful/pick-your-own word, carry gun based on its size, performance and plenty more attributes. It is big enough to run with larger guns, while still small enough for most to conceal it.

An attribute of the Glock is it a striker design. That is a plus for some people and a minus for others.

My question is what is, or what should be the DA/SA equivalent to the Glock 19?

I'm going to go with the HK P2000. CZ's are great guns, I have 2 P-07's and a P-01. The reason I'm going with the P2000 is that it is a similar-sized polymer gun with no controls on the slide. With slim slide lock levers, the P2000 is ultra low-profile, like the G19. It is very easy to do malfunction clearance drills like the G19. Except I don't really get malfunctions with the P2000.

[K.O.A.M.]

Before I went full-on Glock, I carried a P228 (when issued a 9mm) and a P229 (when issued a .357 Sig). I was able to conceal both with either IWB or AIWB holsters and was confident in my abilities with either pistol. The profile is fairly small and I had lots of familiarity with the decocker-only Sigs. YMMV

[David S.]

Sig Pro 2022

As I remember, the SIGPro series is bigger than a P229 but smaller than a P226. It's barely lighter than P229 (same as an old-school P228?). All of SIG's double-stack offerings are all significantly (IMO) larger and heavier than the Glock 19 and HK P2000.

Cheers,
David

[LangdonTactical]

Hopefully this isn't a drift but is there much of a difference between a gadget equipped G19 vs any hammer fire gun of similar size?

The Gadget takes care of one issue of the striker fired gun when holstering, that is all it does. It does not give me a DA first shot. So I say no, it is not the same thing.

[walker2713]

P2000

[joshs]

On the size to shoot ability ratio, I don't think a hammer fired gun can match the G19 because an equivalent grip length will result in an overall taller and slightly heavier pistol.

[Al T.]

IMHO, Ruger's P95 is the G19 of the DA/SA crowd, especially as it's common around here (used) for 225.00 ish.

[SteveB]

On the size to shoot ability ratio, I don't think a hammer fired gun can match the G19 because an equivalent grip length will result in an overall taller and slightly heavier pistol.

According to the Glock and HK websites, the P2000 is .08" taller and 1.3 oz heavier.

[joshs]

According to the Glock and HK websites, the P2000 is .08" taller and 1.3 oz heavier.

It's taller, has a shorter grip, and holds two fewer bullets. I'm not saying the differences are huge, but I do find the G19 to be about the optimal grip length. Going shorter noticeably affects my performance, especially reload speed/consistency.

[David S.]

How does the Walther P99 compare?

[Wheeler]

I don't think any hammered fire pistol can check off all the boxes that a glock can. So I still think it depends on what virtues of a glock you are speaking of. I think a Sig P229 probably comes close but you are talking about a pistol that weighs substantially more. It is also harder to conceal because of how thick it is. It also costs twice the price on average.

What boxes would those be?

[ReverendMeat]

How does the Walther P99 compare?

As far as size goes? It's somewhat thicker and noticeably taller than the 19 but the extra height is more due to the slide as opposed to the grip, so from a concealment standpoint they're pretty similar.

[Wheeler]

The Gadget takes care of one issue of the striker fired gun when holstering, that is all it does. It does not give me a DA first shot. So I say no, it is not the same thing.

This +2

[Dave Williams]

The Gadget takes care of one issue of the striker fired gun when holstering, that is all it does. It does not give me a DA first shot. So I say no, it is not the same thing.

Why is the DA first shot so critical?

[JTPHD]

In my opinion, the P07 is a great substitute for the G19. I feel it carries identically to the 19 (with the added safety of a hammer), and performs even better, IMO. I just tried the 5x5 drill for the first time today, and was surprised to see a time of 17.49 seconds- I know for some around here that is not an impressive score, but I'll take it! :)

[Wheeler]

Why is the DA first shot so critical?

I don't want to presume to speak for Mr. Langdon as I'm sure he has his own reasons. I'll share mine if you care to hear them.

The DA first pull provides the shooter with a bit more time due to the length of pull to make the decision to NOT shoot. A striker fired or SAO does not.

[WDW]

I'd say a Sig 2022 or the 229, still, there is NOTHING out there that perfectly mimics the G19's mystical size:shootability:capacity:concealability ratio

[Hizzie]

I don't want to presume to speak for Mr. Langdon as I'm sure he has his own reasons. I'll share mine if you care to hear them.

The DA first pull provides the shooter with a bit more time due to the length of pull to make the decision to NOT shoot. A striker fired or SAO does not.

Splitting hairs. The second stage of the Glock's trigger pull was enough for me one night. That said I'm switching to TDA after an upcoming class.

[Wheeler]

Splitting hairs. The second stage of the Glock's trigger pull was enough for me one night. That said I'm switching to TDA after an upcoming class.

I want that hair to be as thick as possible. My research and personal experience have led me to believe that there is no difference in reaction times and first shot. There is however, personal experience that has taught me that that little bit of clearance provides me with enough time to think when reacting under a startle response.

[Irelander]

I've been following Langdon's experience with the Beretta PX4. Sounds like a good option to me.

[Gary1911A1]

I like my Walther P99AS in 9MM as my choice for a DA/SA pistol close to the Glock 19. Both have polymer frames with 15 round magazines. The Walther still has the teniffer finish Glocks use to have. Both are striker fired with little protruding controls.

[Wayne Dobbs]

It's taller, has a shorter grip, and holds two fewer bullets.

When you call cartridges "bullets", or magazines "clips", God kills a puppy...

[TGS]

When you call cartridges "bullets", or magazines "clips", God kills a puppy...

But the gun still holds two fewer bullets.

[jondoe297]

Splitting hairs. The second stage of the Glock's trigger pull was enough for me one night. That said I'm switching to TDA after an upcoming class.

You are probably significantly better trained than the average street cop/military/citizen though. I rode in the ambulance with a coworker two weeks ago that had a nice chunk of her thigh missing, due to an ND with a Glock while reholstering. While I completely understand and agree that it was not the gun's fault, rather hers, I still feel strongly that a DA trigger pull would have likely prevented it.
We all know that it's a training issue, but with the realities that many agencies face when it comes to funding and time, getting everyone to the level that many of us here are on (or weeding out the ones that can't get there) isn't generally feasible.

[GJM]

For a carry, as opposed to a game gun, how important is it that the gun be fast to reload?

I sure get it for pure gaming, and even timmie gaming, but speed reloading seems so improbable with a 10+ cartridge carry gun, that I am willing to push that attribute further down my list.

Of course, when a guy needs a bullet in a hurry, it might go further back up the list. :)

[Clobbersaurus]

You are probably significantly better trained than the average street cop/military/citizen though. I rode in the ambulance with a coworker two weeks ago that had a nice chunk of her thigh missing, due to an ND with a Glock while reholstering. While I completely understand and agree that it was not the gun's fault, rather hers, I still feel strongly that a DA trigger pull would have likely prevented it.


I hope she recovers fully. That is a shitty deal for her.

IMO, it's not so much the DA trigger that makes DA/SA guns "safer". It's the ability to thumb ride the hammer while holstering that makes them potentially more safe than a striker fired gun.

[David S.]

For a carry, as opposed to a game gun, how important is it that the gun be fast to reload?

I sure get it for pure gaming, and even timmie gaming, but speed reloading seems so improbable with a 10+ cartridge carry gun, that I am willing to push that attribute further down my list.

Of course, when a guy needs a bullet in a hurry, it might go further back up the list. :)

My immediate thought is that raw speed isn't so much the an issue as "fumble-proof."

I prefer double stacks to single stacks because they generally seem to feed into the magwell easier. Speed is a byproduct of fumble-proof, though.

[GJM]

IMO, it's not so much the DA trigger that makes DA/SA guns "safer". It's the ability to thumb ride the hammer while holstering that makes them potentially more safe than a striker fired gun.

I think DA/SA guns can be way safer in many ways beyond just holstering. About half the self inflicted gunshot wounds over several decades of data at Front Sight are drawing. It is also much easier to let a shot off prematurely on target with a short trigger on the draw.

[David S.]

I hope she recovers fully. That is a shitty deal for her.

IMO, it's not so much the DA trigger that makes DA/SA guns "safer". It's the ability to thumb ride the hammer while holstering that makes them potentially more safe than a striker fired gun.


Hopefully we don't start down THAT rabbit trail yet again, but I agree. I'm not convinced that the extra few pounds that the DA pull provides, in and of itself, will save anyone from a ND during reholster. If the DA provides any protection at all (that's for you, GJM ;) ), it's the hammer, if you choose/remember to use it.

Cheers,
David

ETA... GJM you beat me too it.

[LangdonTactical]

You are probably significantly better trained than the average street cop/military/citizen though. I rode in the ambulance with a coworker two weeks ago that had a nice chunk of her thigh missing, due to an ND with a Glock while reholstering. While I completely understand and agree that it was not the gun's fault, rather hers, I still feel strongly that a DA trigger pull would have likely prevented it.
We all know that it's a training issue, but with the realities that many agencies face when it comes to funding and time, getting everyone to the level that many of us here are on (or weeding out the ones that can't get there) isn't generally feasible.

This^ Plus 1

[breakingtime91]

I don't consider a glock trigger that short, especially if you keep it stock or add a NY spring.

[LangdonTactical]

Hopefully we don't start down THAT rabbit trail yet again, but I agree. I'm not convinced that the extra few pounds that the DA pull provides, in and of itself, will save anyone from a ND during reholster. If the DA provides any protection at all (that's for you, GJM ;) ), it's the hammer, if you choose/remember to use it.

Cheers,
David

ETA... GJM you beat me too it.

It is not the weight that keeps you out of trouble with a DA gun. I know and have heard all the weight answers and if that was the case, NYPD would not be having any ADs. I is the distance the finger has to travel that keeps you out of trouble. Over a short distance, you can flinch through, or have a bilateral sympathetic response that will pull up to and beyond a 25 pound trigger. Again, the gadget takes care of the thumb on the hammer thing, and I see no reason why everyone that carries a Glock would not have one on their gun. But that is only part of the issue here. Studies have shown that at least 20% of trained LEOs will have their finger on the trigger when they should not. I know, I know "thats' a training issue".

Can you have an AD/ND with a DA gun, sure you can, but some people are dangerous with sharp pencils.

[LangdonTactical]

I think DA/SA guns can be way safer in many ways beyond just holstering. About half the self inflicted gunshot wounds over several decades of data at Front Sight are drawing. It is also much easier to let a shot off prematurely on target with a short trigger on the draw.

Yeah, exactly George, your spot on. Show me a Youtube video of someone shooting them self while drawing with a DA gun, bet you can't find one. Show me a video of someone shooting them self with a striker fired gun, the answer is which one do you want to see.

[Clobbersaurus]

I think DA/SA guns can be way safer in many ways beyond just holstering. About half the self inflicted gunshot wounds over several decades of data at Front Sight are drawing. It is also much easier to let a shot off prematurely on target with a short trigger on the draw.

Good points for sure GJM.

Edited to defer to the SME's here.

[David S.]

Ernest,

Somewhat agree, but I (eta: also) defer to your expertise and experience.

Cheers,
David

[The Apprentice]

It's taller, has a shorter grip, and holds two fewer bullets. I'm not saying the differences are huge, but I do find the G19 to be about the optimal grip length. Going shorter noticeably affects my performance, especially reload speed/consistency.

Is it realy down 2 I've heard a few well known instructors recommend down loading glock mags so they can be seated on a closed slide. On my glock 26 mags I have to stand on them to get the last round in.

[TGS]

Is it realy down 2 I've heard a few well known instructors recommend down loading glock mags so they can be seated on a closed slide. On my glock 26 mags I have to stand on them to get the last round in.

On that, you can actually file back some tabs on the followers of most HK mags and get an extra couple rounds in them.

My guess is that HK puts these tabs on the follower for the purpose of not compressing the spring as much as their competition's mags allow...which, I'm guessing, contributes to why HK mags have ridiculously long service lives.

So, if the P2000 capacity is really chapping someone's ass, they could always file down those tabs and roll with a 14-15 round mag. I'm guessing most people won't do that, however.

[GJM]

Here is my take.

Ernest is evaluating the PX4 Compact, and it will be interesting to see how some pistols do in longer term testing.

I love shooting the P01 and P07, but where I am delighted to game a SP01 Shadow, I have vague feelings of concern about both the P01 and P07 for the serious carry gun. I don't like the magazines for the P01, and the P07 is new enough I think the jury is still out. They both sure do shoot great, though.

The 228/229 is vetted, but I think polymer when it comes to a G19 contender.

The Walther P99 is very interesting, but the W in Walther stands for Weird.

My choice is a DA/SA P2000. That pistol in .40 has been used and abused for years in a major Fed contract. The design is very mature. And, it is built like an HK. So, you have similar sized 9 and .40 models, that are a great size, great profile in terms of minimal levers protruding, very accurate and very reliable. They won't outshoot a CZ, but shoot ability isn't everything for a carry gun.

[LSP552]

I carry a SIG P239, 228 or 226 a good bit. I’m a big fan of the SIG DA/SA guns and think they bring a LOT to the table for LE or CC. I also have a lot of time with Glocks, including the 19. The 19 is a good combination of size, weight, shootability, etc. I do find that the square Glock slide tends to print more compared to the rounded SIG 228/229 slides when carried at 3:30.

I prefer the SIG DA/SA and have done my best shooting with this system. There are few platforms as shootable as a DA/SA SIG with the SRT trigger. There is also the safety benefits of the longer and heavier trigger pull for the 1st shot, and the short, light trigger for the other shots you need to take. A smooth DA shot is NOT a detriment to accurate or fast shooting, despite what some would have you believe. It just takes training from someone who knows how to teach the system and then some dedicated practice.

In the SIG family, the 228 or 229 probably comes closest to matching the G19’s primary attributes, except for weight. It’s too bad that there will never be a plastic version of those guns.

Price, a crop of instructors who think a Glock has a good trigger and don’t know how to teach the DA/SA system, reduced agency training time and standards have all regulated the DA/SA gun to a nitch market.

I’ve handled several, and never felt or shot a DA/SA HK trigger remotely as good as a SIG. If they existed, I’d be tempted to take a look at a P2000 for concealed carry just for the weight. LSP972 and I were discussing this just yesterday. As we age, it seems that weight becomes more of a factor than anything when it comes to comfortable carry. I get the comforting not comfortable thing…..but it becomes a factor at some point when you carry a gun every day as an olderrr dude. It’s one reason that I’ve been carrying my 239 a lot lately.

[JTQ]

Even though it's not polymer, I think it would be the P229. It is the standard compact version of a standard full size duty gun. There are lots of holster options just like the G19. Much like the old saying (no doubt no longer applicable), "no IT guy ever got fired for buying IBM." Choosing between a G19 or a P229 is a pretty safe bet. While I'm not really a fan of either the G19 or P229, choosing a CZ P-07, Beretta PX4, HK P2000 carries some risk as they are less popular and accessories are a little harder to come by.

[jondoe297]

I hope she recovers fully. That is a shitty deal for her.

IMO, it's not so much the DA trigger that makes DA/SA guns "safer". It's the ability to thumb ride the hammer while holstering that makes them potentially more safe than a striker fired gun.

She's in good spirits and is already up and walking. I did a good job of keeping her laughing on the ride to the hospital. She's fortunate, in that the round went in, didn't go too deep, and came back out a few inches lower down her thigh. On the down side, the HST expanded when it went in, so it took a sizable chunk of skin with it on the way out. She's going to have a really big nasty scar.
I agree with you on the thumb/hammer, but I also feel that the DA pull length is equally as important. If they'll put their finger on the trigger while reholstering (what she did), then they'll also forget to put their thumb over the hammer. The lengthy pull, in my opinion, gives you that extra second to have your "oh crap" moment.

[jondoe297]

My choice is a DA/SA P2000. That pistol in .40 has been used and abused for years in a major Fed contract. The design is very mature. And, it is built like an HK. So, you have similar sized 9 and .40 models, that are a great size, great profile in terms of minimal levers protruding, very accurate and very reliable. They won't outshoot a CZ, but shoot ability isn't everything for a carry gun.

Agreed. I'm a big fan of the P2000.

[jondoe297]

Studies have shown that at least 20% of trained LEOs will have their finger on the trigger when they should not. I know, I know "thats' a training issue".

.

I can attest to that. I see it all the time.

[A-Train]

I'm surprised the HK P30 hasn't come up yet. If you lay it on top of the G19 they are surprisingly similar in size (although the P30 is thicker and the grip is longer). The P30 is to me about an ideal sized pistol for both concealed carry and duty use if so desired. Guess that's why I have 6 of them (yes I have a problem). LOL!

[Kyle Reese]

I'm surprised the HK P30 hasn't come up yet. If you lay it on top of the G19 they are surprisingly similar in size (although the P30 is thicker and the grip is longer). The P30 is to me about an ideal sized pistol for both concealed carry and duty use if so desired. Guess that's why I have 6 of them (yes I have a problem). LOL!

Dude, nothing at all wrong with having 5 spare guns. Never know when you'll end up wearing 6 P30's out. :)

[A-Train]

I have a wife and 3 kids so the "excuse" I use is that I have one for all of us (and a spare for me LOL) just in case we all need to be armed at the same time. ;-)

[warpedcamshaft]

If you lay it on top of the G19 they are surprisingly similar in size

Yeah... but no...
(Love the P30, but I don't consider it remotely Glock 19 sized)


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_2.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_2.jpg.html)

[psalms144.1]

Forgive me, I haven't read all 7 pages of this yet - so I'll just throw in my two cents on stuff already hashed over (I'm sure):

1. Size wise - the only hammer gun I'd consider carrying that's truly G19 size/weight is the P2000. It gives up capacity to maintain size, though, and has a gosh-awful DA/SA just like most other modern HKs. Night sight selection is limited. Magazines are moderately priced and generally available. Most decent holster makers support
2. The next in line would likely be the P228/9, which also give up capacity, and add A LOT of weight. This is good while shooting, bad while carrying. And they're very wide, so though the length and height is similar, they're harder to conceal. Generally good-very good DA/SA, decent after market support (night sights, holsters, etc)
3. The old Beretta 92 compact deserves a mention here - again, same GENERAL dimensions, loss of capacity, add weight, add wonky safety/decock position. Great trigger, though. No realistic option for night sights, limited holster options.
4. I guess next would be the CZ P01 or P07. Both are larger than the Glock, the P01 with one less round, the P07 matching capacity. Both are heavier than the Glock (surprisingly, the polymer P07 is only one ounce lighter than the alloy P01). Both have decent triggers which both break in nicely, or are easy to "tweak" if that's your cup of tea. As others have mentioned, magazines are expensive. Night sight options are limited. Holsters are available, but nowhere near as readily as the Glock. As Ralph has mentioned, the P07s at least have their chambers left in the white, which is a MAJOR concern for me, though it seems like very few people notice a problem.
5. Used S&W 3rd Generation. Tons of models, surely one is close to the G19 in size (if not weight and capacity). Generally good triggers, wonky decock.

Of all of the above, if I had to switch to a DA/SA hammer gun tomorrow, I'd probably go with the HK, even with it's horrible trigger. If the P07 were 1/4" shorter, it might catch my eye, but, unfortunately, it's more G17 like in OAH, which I know for me doesn't work from a concealment perspective. The Sig is too heavy, the Beretta and S&Ws are basically unobtanium, so there's not a lot of options, as I see it.

Regards,

Kevin

[GJM]

I used to think the HK DA/SA trigger sucked, but to borrow an expression from my friend, Darryl, folks need to harden the f... up. :)

Kidding aside, the P2000 DA with the Wolff 12 pound hammer spring has really grown on me. Today, on the two inch dot DOW, I went 20/20 at 7 yards with the P2000, and 17/20 at 10 yards, shooting from ten yards ALL DA to show how decent the DA trigger is.

In fairness, it took me several weeks of dry firing the P2000 to start liking the trigger. It will never have a Sig or Beretta trigger, but I think it is more than fine for a carry gun. Of course, shooting the USP may have helped, as the USP, is a marvel of German reliability through engineering, while simultaneously being a shooter interface horror show.

[GJM]

Yeah... but no...
(Love the P30, but I don't consider it remotely Glock 19 sized)


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_2.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_2.jpg.html)


This is a frequent question from YVK to his friends, "how does my (HK P30) butt look in this outfit." Not making this up.

[LSP972]

Yeah... but no...
(Love the P30, but I don't consider it remotely Glock 19 sized)




Agreed. Among the 15+ capacity 9mm "service pistols", only Glock and Caracal could be considered slim and trim, IMO. The P2000 comes the closest, but gives up two rounds… if that matters.

I was really interested in the Caracal; it reminded me of the P7 in terms of sleek carryability (is that a word?), without the weight and complexity. Too bad it tanked.

.

[LSP972]

ke very few people notice a problem.
5. Used S&W 3rd Generation. Tons of models, surely one is close to the G19 in size (if not weight and capacity). Generally good triggers, wonky decock.



That would be the 3913/3914/3953/3954. These are the guns that killed the Devel and ASP M-39 custom conversions back in the day.

The "DAO" 3953 is a very nice carry piece, with a good trigger, stainless, and no Walther decocker/safety. I have one. But its just a LITTLE bit thinner than a G19, with a lot less rounds and a bit more weight. I keep mine stashed for the day when hi-cap pistols are illegal, period.

.

[Irelander]

I am really enjoying this thread. I am very interested in the DA/SA market even though my carry gun now is a G19. Currently I am most interested in the P2000 which is out of my price range at this point, the CZ P01 or P07, and the Beretta PX4. I have not shot any of them but handled a few.

GJM, What don't you like about the P01 magazines?

[GJM]

I love MecGar AFC CZ 75 mags, but not the Mecagar P01 mags (sharp, pointy base pads that pinch my finger) or the OEM P01 mags, due to crappy springs, that can make them puke in sand. P07 OEM mags, made for them by MecGar, seem good.

[psalms144.1]

I shouldn't post late at night, but this is one other significant (to me) advantage to the P2000. It, unlike any of its competitors, offers the option of a fuller size "competition" pistol (P30L), and, more importantly, a subcompact that uses the same magazines (P2000sk/P30sk). CZ, Beretta don't offer either, and Sig's subcompact line (P224) is, IMHO, not so bueno. Seriously, who would want to hump that much weight on their ankle (all other growing pain issues aside)?

[The Apprentice]

I am really enjoying this thread. I am very interested in the DA/SA market even though my carry gun now is a G19. Currently I am most interested in the P2000 which is out of my price range at this point, the CZ P01 or P07, and the Beretta PX4. I have not shot any of them but handled a few.

GJM, What don't you like about the P01 magazines?

The p2000 has been reasonably priced lately I picked mine up from buds for like 660ish useing there make an offer. That was for the le package with night sights and three mags. By the time you fix the other guns your pretty close to the same price.

[ranger]

I consider the CZ P09 as the full size option to the P07. I have been focused on the M&P9FS and M&P PRO 9 but I am trying the DA/SA P07 for carry and the P09 for competition.

[Irelander]

Is there a DA/SA pistol that has anywhere close to the same low bore axis of the Glock? Or are hammer guns always going to have a higher bore axis due to the nature of the design? Just curious.

[TCinVA]

I think pretty much all of them are going to have a higher bore axis...although I think that's a largely irrelevant design aspect.

[1986s4]

While I don't think it's quite irrelevant it isn't everything either. For my money the CZ has a low bore line. Not Glock or M&P low but low enough. What I really notice as far as high bore lines go are HK USP's and the SIG P series.

[Kyle Reese]

I think pretty much all of them are going to have a higher bore axis...although I think that's a largely irrelevant design aspect.

Subjectively, I find that the PX 4 Compact has less perceived recoil than a Glock in the same size category, but that's just me. Shooting 124 grain +P Gold Dots made me do a double take, literally, as I expected a lot more muzzle flip with this load.

[psalms144.1]

How did I forget the PX4 Compact? Same overall size as the G19, same capacity, same weight as the P07 - barrel length is very short for the size - 3 1/4", but, if you're getting the accuracy you want, I wouldn't sweat it. I imagine NS and holster are as thin on the ground as they are for the CZs, maybe worse...

[PPGMD]

If you remove price from the equation. I would say the SIG P229R/P228. They have a long history of reliability and service record with LE agencies. And it has moderately good industry support, maybe not as much as the Glock, but much more than the other two on your list.

[Kyle Reese]

How did I forget the PX4 Compact? Same overall size as the G19, same capacity, same weight as the P07 - barrel length is very short for the size - 3 1/4", but, if you're getting the accuracy you want, I wouldn't sweat it. I imagine NS and holster are as thin on the ground as they are for the CZs, maybe worse...

Trijicon HD's are available for the PX 4 Compact (http://www.amazon.com/Trijicon-BE114-C-600773-Beretta-Compact-Outline/dp/B00OUX13MC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438789348&sr=8-1&keywords=trijicon+HD+Beretta+PX+4+C), but you're right, holster choices are a bit slimmer than other brands.

[breakingtime91]

Trijicon HD's are available for the PX 4 Compact (http://www.amazon.com/Trijicon-BE114-C-600773-Beretta-Compact-Outline/dp/B00OUX13MC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438789348&sr=8-1&keywords=trijicon+HD+Beretta+PX+4+C), but you're right, holster choices are a bit slimmer than other brands.

Does safari-land make a als or gls for the px4? The only two holsters I need is an JM Kydex (or any other well known appendix holster maker) and an OWB that has a security device like the als or gls for hiking and hunting.

[JR1572]

Does safari-land make a als or gls for the px4? The only two holsters I need is an JM Kydex (or any other well known appendix holster maker) and an OWB that has a security device like the als or gls for hiking and hunting.

They made an ALS for the full size. I don't know if one is made specifically for the compact. My subcompact didn't lock into the ALS for the full size PX4.

JR1572

[kcevans]

I have ask JM to build an AIWB for my Beretta PX4 compact on 2 occasions and have gotten turned away both times pretty much stating it wasn't worth the time due to the interest.
I have one for my G19 and love it but I find myself carrying my PX4 compact most of the time without a JM.

[Tony Mayer]

I have ask JM to build an AIWB for my Beretta PX4 compact on 2 occasions and have gotten turned away both times pretty much stating it wasn't worth the time due to the interest.
I have one for my G19 and love it but I find myself carrying my PX4 compact most of the time without a JM.

kcevans, there has been considerable interest lately on the PX4 series, so I will be adding it to the available pistol lists. It should be on the site tomorrow, but if you want to order now, use any pistol in the drop down menu and tell me in the comments it's for the PX4 compact. Thanks

[LangdonTactical]

kcevans, there has been considerable interest lately on the PX4 series, so I will be adding it to the available pistol lists. It should be on the site tomorrow, but if you want to order now, use any pistol in the drop down menu and tell me in the comments it's for the PX4 compact. Thanks

Very cool, Thanks Tony. I may just buy one to support the program :)

[23JAZ]

Beretta 92 Compact for me. Wish it was decocker only though.

[WDW]

Frankly I don't understand why the P99 AS isn't more popular with AIWB crowds. It offers all the benefits of a DA/SA as well as those of a striker fired gun in a very ergonomic, accurate, high quality package. JMCK makes holsters for it. The only thing it has going against it is the lack of available aftermarket sights, but there are a few options out there. I love mine & if I'm not toting a G17/19 I'm carrying a P99.

[LangdonTactical]

Frankly I don't understand why the P99 AS isn't more popular with AIWB crowds. It offers all the benefits of a DA/SA as well as those of a striker fired gun in a very ergonomic, accurate, high quality package. JMCK makes holsters for it. The only thing it has going against it is the lack of available aftermarket sights, but there are a few options out there. I love mine & if I'm not toting a G17/19 I'm carrying a P99.

I think the big reason is that it does not give you an external hammer like most DASA guns. The ability to put your thumb on the back of the hammer and have positive control of the firing mechanism is what most like in a DASA gun for AIWB carry.

[WDW]

I think the big reason is that it does not give you an external hammer like most DASA guns. The ability to put your thumb on the back of the hammer and have positive control of the firing mechanism is what most like in a DASA gun for AIWB carry.

The P99 AS won't fire with the decocker depressed. You can pull the trigger, but the firing pin will not protrude out of the breech face.

[LangdonTactical]

kcevans, there has been considerable interest lately on the PX4 series, so I will be adding it to the available pistol lists. It should be on the site tomorrow, but if you want to order now, use any pistol in the drop down menu and tell me in the comments it's for the PX4 compact. Thanks

Ordered two of them just now.

[HRL]

Really interested in this thread right now and sorry if this is a derail. Just a regular joe but recently had an experience investigating a noise due to garage door cable/spring failure...no issues but sum of it is immediately replaced minus with dot connector back in my G19 day after. Like others have said shoot/no shoot and AD prevention are mostly a training issue but like Wheeler said in this thread and Mr. Bolke has said about "street" triggers I want every chance to not shoot if that is a decision that must be made as well. I want to be the best most responsible armed citizen I can be and that includes protecting others and myself from possible brain farts, especially with extra time and money for training low with a growing family.

Free p-f class trigger control drill sticks in my mind too...crank a shot in under .3 seconds after buzzer...even under the mild stress of the drill I cranked off a round on a verbal command instead of the buzzer.

All this mind, even with extraction fixed in my G19 and gadgets available soon, I'm looking to switch to a hk p2000, sig sp2022, or beretta px4 compact.

[Hizzie]

After shooting with Mike Pannone all weekend the CZ P-07 w/CGW upgrades in now on my radar.

[LangdonTactical]

After shooting with Mike Pannone all weekend the CZ P-07 w/CGW upgrades in now on my radar.

I have heard great things about the P07, but lets be honest, Mike could shoot a High Point and make it look good. :)

[LittleLebowski]

So, I shot one of Langdon's PX4 Compacts today.

It carries better than the G19 but is very close to it in dimensions. Same capacity. I shot 270 rounds without fail. Gun was very dirty but well lubed with Lucas Gun Oil (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IG20RM/).

I had expected the initial DA trigger pull to kick my ass. It most certain did not. Just keep pulling, don't wait. Smooth steady pull. Use that long pull to stage the trigger during your press out. Decocking and then of course, resting my thumb on the hammer during reholstering AIWB was second nature quickly. Accuracy was great once I got used to the POI of the Trijicon HD sights. No malfunctions. Reloads were smooth, the slide lock lever is much easier to use than a Glock's (Vickers or factory extended). I have no conclusive evidence but the gun seems to not heat up during prolonged use as badly as a Glock does.

I would like one of these. I don't need one, though. I do think it would make me a better shooter with regards to managing the DA/SA pulls and getting off Glock after eight years of carrying and training with only 9mm Glocks.

They need some work out of the box as detailed in the article (http://goo.gl/R7qUcm) but damn.....it's fucking nice.

[GJM]

What was POI? On the full size PX4, the .40 was well regulated, but the 9 hit well low with HD sights.

What is this staging and press out you refer to? Works just fine to extend the pistol and row through the DA trigger in one continuous motion.

[LittleLebowski]

What was POI? On the full size PX4, the .40 was well regulated, but the 9 hit well low with HD sights.

Almost 2" low for me at 7 yards.


What is this staging and press out you refer to? Works just fine to extend the pistol and row through the DA trigger in one continuous motion.

Yes.

[kcevans]

Fantastic, I will be placing an order this weekend.
Thank You



kcevans, there has been considerable interest lately on the PX4 series, so I will be adding it to the available pistol lists. It should be on the site tomorrow, but if you want to order now, use any pistol in the drop down menu and tell me in the comments it's for the PX4 compact. Thanks

[kcevans]

This is GREAT news, I will be ordering on this weekend.
Thank You



Ordered two of them just now.

[Matt O]

Almost 2" low for me at 7 yards.

By 2" low do you mean it was drive the dot at 7 or even 2" low for that? Just curious where the HD sights for the PX4 regulate at 7 and then 20-25 yards as I remember George relating that the 92-series HD sights are way way low at all distances.

[APS-PF]

Yes I'm curious as well. ~5" low @25yds would be unacceptable to me.

[Alpha Sierra]

After shooting with Mike Pannone all weekend the CZ P-07 w/CGW upgrades in now on my radar.

I've been entirely satisfied with mine, even with no aftermarket upgrades. I did a little mild polishing of some FC parts to get rid of some grittiness. That plus routine dry fire work = a perfectly good trigger for defensive work.

Don't miss the Glock it replaced.

[LangdonTactical]

By 2" low do you mean it was drive the dot at 7 or even 2" low for that? Just curious where the HD sights for the PX4 regulate at 7 and then 20-25 yards as I remember George relating that the 92-series HD sights are way way low at all distances.

For me I have to drive the dot at 7" to hit 2" dots in the center with the Trijicon HDs. They are tall sights, so there is a little bit of sight off set at that distance.

[LangdonTactical]

Yes I'm curious as well. ~5" low @25yds would be unacceptable to me.


Does not shoot that way for me at all.

[GJM]

One reason I picked a 92A1 to have Wilson mod it, was the availability of HD sights. When they were test firing it, the 92A1 hit some crazy amount, like 12 inches low at 25 yards. The shooter there is very skilled. We ended up having to ditch those sights, as the front HD was already so tall we couldn't get a rear sight that would work.

On the full size PX4, the HD sights regulated "tip of front sight" as I like at 25 yards. On the PX4 full size 9, POI was lower, like at least drive the dot low. I wish Trijicon offered different height front sights for 9 and .40, but then again I wish they did for HK as well.

[Matt O]

For me I have to drive the dot at 7" to hit 2" dots in the center with the Trijicon HDs. They are tall sights, so there is a little bit of sight off set at that distance.

Thanks for the clarification. To follow up, are you using the full or compact version of the Trijicon HD sights as their website indicates different heights for the rear sight? Apologies, I'm a bit of a data nerd when it comes to filing away info on sight heights and POI at various distances.

[Alpha Sierra]

I've been entirely satisfied with mine, even with no aftermarket upgrades. I did a little mild polishing of some FC parts to get rid of some grittiness. That plus routine dry fire work = a perfectly good trigger for defensive work.

Don't miss the Glock it replaced.

ETA: I've experimented with Glock 19 recoil springs because I think the 20 lb factory spring is just too much. I've settled on a Wolff 16 lb spring, using a CGW SS guide rod (the OEM recoil spring is captured on mine)

[LittleLebowski]

By 2" low do you mean it was drive the dot at 7 or even 2" low for that? Just curious where the HD sights for the PX4 regulate at 7 and then 20-25 yards as I remember George relating that the 92-series HD sights are way way low at all distances.

Don't overthink this. Langdon said that 147s shot drive the dot POI for him and my ammo was LAX commercial 115r reloads.

[GJM]

Don't overthink this. Langdon said that 147s shot drive the dot POI for him and my ammo was LAX commercial 115r reloads.

If 147 grain is drive the dot at 7, that is very consistent with my experience of the full size PX4 shooting low at 25 yards with 115 and 124 grain ammo.

[john c]

I'm not a fan of DA/SA, but this thread has piqued my interest in the PX4. Looking at the Beretta website, I saw they have a DAO version, but also a SAO (closer to LEM than true SAO). Does anyone have any experience in the SAO version, the PX4 type C? How is the trigger?

[LangdonTactical]

I'm not a fan of DA/SA, but this thread has piqued my interest in the PX4. Looking at the Beretta website, I saw they have a DAO version, but also a SAO (closer to LEM than true SAO). Does anyone have any experience in the SAO version, the PX4 type C? How is the trigger?

I believe the C model is the "Continuous" action version. It is basically a DAO version that is somewhat pre-cocked internally for a shooter lighter double action every time. But I would not say that it is SAO.

[joshs]

Has anyone tried the Sphinx SDP Compact? It looks like an interesting G19ish sized TDA pistol.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I'm not a fan of DA/SA, but this thread has piqued my interest in the PX4. Looking at the Beretta website, I saw they have a DAO version, but also a SAO (closer to LEM than true SAO). Does anyone have any experience in the SAO version, the PX4 type C? How is the trigger?


I believe the C model is the "Continuous" action version. It is basically a DAO version that is somewhat pre-cocked internally for a shooter lighter double action every time. But I would not say that it is SAO.

I see no mention of a DAO or any other versions on the website, besides caliber choices. What am I missing?

[JTQ]

Historically, what was available in the PX4 line-up was…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_Px4_Storm

Type F: Single and double-action. Decocker. Manual safety.
Type C: So-called to be Single-action-only ("Constant Action" - hammer is in half-cocked position). Spurless hammer. No decocker. No safety.
Type D: Double-action-only. Spurless hammer. No decocker. No safety.
Type G: Single and double-action. Decocker. No manual safety.

I don't know if those other models are still available, but the only model currently listed at Beretta USA is the "F" model, though my understanding is you can change that model to a "G" model in about 15 minutes.

http://www.beretta.com/en-us/px4-storm-full/#tab-models

About three months ago, I did run into a PX4 C model (not compact, but constant action) at a local gun store. I'm pretty sure it was new product and not used. It had a slick slide, and the trigger was OK. I don't fear TDA guns or slide mounted safety's so the "C" model didn't have too much interest to me.