Pistol-Forum AIWB "HELP" (Holster Evaluation and Lending Program)

[eyemahm]

As a couple typical pistol-forum individuals, who carry in one holster and have a box of others at home, dove and I have been wondering for a while whether it’s possible to setup a more efficient system to try on the sort of holsters that one simply can’t find in the LGS. Having discussed it with Tom_Jones and TCinVA, we've all come to the conclusion that some sort of holster lending program would be excellent for the community, and we’d collectively like to solicit feedback from the community on the best way to take this forward.

The basic question is: what is the most efficient way to enable as many people to try as many holsters as possible with the least amount of risk?

How should this work? Should it be user managed, admin managed, or somewhere in between? Feel free to expand into operational particulars if you so desire.

How should program costs be funded (admin PO box, missing holsters, holster repair, and additional holster purchases)?

Should there be a deposit or fee required for participation, beyond being a Site Supporter? And if so, how much (e.g., as much as the most expensive holsters on loan)?

What is a reasonable loan period that balances value to the individual with speed of circulation?

If individuals have a responsibility to transfer holsters to the next person within a certain time frame and do not do so, should there be a penalty? If there is a late fee, what is a reasonable amount to charge per week?

Holster makers: in exchange for this sort of exposure, would you be willing to donate or discount (new or blemished) holsters to the program?

Any and all thoughts, feedback, suggestions, etc. are welcome.

[Luke]

This is such a good idea. I have wanted to try AIWB so bad but the holsters I have don't work I I haven't been able to spend 80 bucks and wait a while to see if it works. Jut the other day I was actually thinking how cool it would be if a bunch of guys would let you "test" the holsters and stuff. I hope this catches on!!!!

[orionz06]

A large flat rate box could be easy to send from person to person. Each user pays $15 or so to try a bunch of holsters. Perhaps make it a G17 holster and toss in a G17 an G19 blue gun.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm not a holster maker, but I could donate a all metal Glock 17 dummy gun, that would give a more realistic weight to the dummy gun for evaluation.

[Irelander]

I am also a big fan of this idea. I think requiring Site Supporter status is a good idea as it supports the site as well as adds some level of credibility and responsibility to the lendee.

The loan time is a hard question but for me, as far as AIWB goes, it has only taken me a day or two to realize the holster is not for me, due to pain/discomfort.

[orionz06]

Site supporter makes the most sense. Allowing a few days also makes sense.

On the shipping... It would be $18 for a Large Flat Rate Box, USPS will send you free boxes to your house and you can print labels online.


Time wise I think it might get rough though. My full size AIWB is adjustable as all hell, as is the Eidolon. There is a thread on various Eidolon configurations.

[Rich@CCC]

I'm in.

I'll happily donate a few holsters of various designs for the forum sampler package.

Site Supporter perk sounds like a good idea. There will inevitably be some loss along the way, but that is to be expected and an acceptable risk in my mind.

[scw2]

For the risk side of things - What if we had a hub and spoke model, with each member having a "balance" to borrow against. The balance could consist of gear they contribute into the gear pool or just cash held in "escrow." A fee per transaction or a subscription fee could go towards a community pool to help defray costs due to costs from accidental losses plus cover shipping.

The downside would be that we'd need one or more well-known and respected people to act as the 'hub' which might end up being a lot of responsibility on them, but it would better protect those lending their gear, while still allowing new or unknown people to borrow the gear.

[GRV]

For the risk side of things - What if we had a hub and spoke model, with each member having a "balance" to borrow against. The balance could consist of gear they contribute into the gear pool or just cash held in "escrow." A fee per transaction or a subscription fee could go towards a community pool to help defray costs due to costs from accidental losses plus cover shipping.

The downside would be that we'd need one or more well-known and respected people to act as the 'hub' which might end up being a lot of responsibility on them, but it would better protect those lending their gear, while still allowing new or unknown people to borrow the gear.

eyemahm and I did a lot of thinking about the various options and came to this one independently as one of the better options. The basic working model here would be putting in a deposit, frolicking along for a while with a golden holster ticket, then cashing back out when you're done (and probably using said deposit to go buy a holster :D). Donations of in-demand holsters could reduce/remove the need for a deposit.

For the hub in that model, I think a PF-affiliated paypal account, with oversight from staff, would probably be best. Depending on people's feeling on the privacy side of things, all "balances" could be visible to other members of the program, ensuring transparency there.


Separately, our initial idea was to have separate waiting lists for each holster, with something like a 1-2 week trial period. However, the idea of bigger sampler packs moving around is intriguing... Each has its ups and downs, and it depends on what people find most useful.

[CCT125US]

Alas my idea has been stolen...... too bad I never put my thoughts to paper. One thing that has always concearned me about shipping to, and recieving from individuals has been the possibility of life happening. You never know the situation in someone's life and in the instant message, immediate gratification world we live in, things take time and get delayed. I think a deposit pool is a great idea, with the deposit only being pulled out after a waiting period in which all attempts to rectify the situation have been made. Would this require a binding legal agreement?? I personally get nervous about shipping things out in a timely manner after I have been sent payment. I am sure DSG, Jim Ryan, Spencer Keepers and John Ralston would not want to simply throw hundreds of dollars of material into the program without having some cash flow up front.

Another option may be to have the individual members, list what holsters they have, but do not use. These could be placed into the program in lieu of a deposit / reduction in deposit. I feel the receiver should pay for shipping up front, that way if life happens the sender is not out $7-15 dollars. The other issue is wear and tear, how is that to be handled? A set amount per holster to cover it perhaps paid to the maker / owner? I love the idea and feel it would be very beneficial to the membership.

[Rich@CCC]

I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem with donating a Shaggy an Uno and possibly one of the new unreleased holsters(pending positive T&E reports) to a P-F holster pool. Said pool to administrated by forum staff or ownership. Hell, Let TLG handle it, he's got time;). I would not expect any remuneration for the test holsters. I think it would be a fantastic service to the forum members, though the effort involved may be more than anyone has truly considered. Only time will tell if it is a viable plan.

[orionz06]

I can toss in a few as well.

[EricM]

Cool idea...and I could see this growing to other things besides just holsters. Mag pouches, sights, sight pushers, WMLs, lasers, ...

My initial thoughts go to two extremes:

1) Run by users. Individuals and holster makers submit a list of what they have available for lending for the good of the community. People get in line and pay the actual shipping costs to get the item from wherever it is to wherever it's going. Limiting to site supporters seems to be a good idea. Should coordinate with staff on details, but IMO failure to return the holster, pay for its replacement, or communicate in a reasonable period of time = ban. Don't loan something unless you can afford to lose it though. There's probably a way to send mailing labels such that the recipient buys a self-addressed shipping label and emails it to the sender, that way there's no money changing hands. There's still the matter of maintaining the list of items and queue of interested users, that could be a lot of work for one person but it also gets complicated to try to share the responsibilities.

2) Run by staff (and possibly other volunteers) as a fund-raising effort for Pistol-Forum to pay for the site, events, prizes, and so on. As others have suggested contributing an item would give you some kind of credit to try other stuff, otherwise you pay some amount -- maybe $X per item per week + shipping both ways? Funds could be used to purchase additional items and replace those lost, damaged, or worn out. If the inventory was large enough, could allow the option to purchase at the end of your rental period, applying your rental fees as credit. I've seen other companies do this, such as with rentals for camera lenses. Obviously this is a smaller market, but how cool would it be to be able to rent a top quality holster and keep it if you like it, without the multiple month wait period that accompanies pretty much all of the best stuff? But could you make enough money to run it profitably...don't ask me.

[YVK]

Great idea.

A sporting equipment website that ive used a lot has run a successful equipment demo program for over a decade. You order the demo unit online, you pay shipping both ways, they send it when it becomes available ( they give their best estimate when it will be available), you keep it for a week and send back. If you don't, you pay several bucks daily rent fee and after one week of delay you bought it, full retail. If you return it on time, it is free except for shipping (it comes in via UPS with a prepaid return label).
Considering that this would be an extra work for the pf staff, if administered through them, it should cost something, I think.

[Luke]

Bump :o

i was looking at a keeper holster last night. Reminded me of this thread.

[Malamute]

Great ideas. I just mentioned something like it and was referred to here.

Having people put up used holsters for sale isnt bad either, I think most just dont think of it. I've bought a couple used holsters for pretty reasonable prices, and somebody sent me a nice holster for nothing that they werent using, asking that I pass on a good deed if possible.

I dont know how it would work, but having a listing of available or wanted things might work, though it could get lost several pages back pretty quickly.

I never saw this thread, I dont think to look at the help desk section, if it doesnt show up on the new posts page, it may get seen as much either. A post or link in the gear section or somewhere else that gets looked at more regularly may get more attention.