PDA

View Full Version : Production Optics is now a thing



PPGMD
07-23-2015, 02:08 PM
It will be called Carry Optics and will be operated as a provision level I only division (club level).

33oz max weight or production pistol weight +/- 4 oz.

Milling of slides allowed.

But otherwise externally stock like production.

And the whole kit and kaboddle must fit in the box.

Peally
07-23-2015, 02:25 PM
I saw that, and thought "meh", but I'll probably be all over it when I hit 60 :D

wtturn
07-23-2015, 06:45 PM
It will be called Carry Optics and will be operated as a provision level I only division (club level).

33oz max weight or production pistol weight +/- 4 oz.

Milling of slides allowed.

But otherwise externally stock like production.

And the whole kit and kaboddle must fit in the box.

I don't believe Carry Optics guns will be subject to any box, but there will be a max mag length requirement.

Cheap Shot
07-23-2015, 07:34 PM
I saw that, and thought "meh", but I'll probably be all over it when I hit 60 :D

Hey! I resemble that remark........

I May throw caution to the wind and shoot CO from concealment at the next match. For the record, I've never been a slave to good judgement

Clay1
07-23-2015, 09:53 PM
It will be called Carry Optics and will be operated as a provision level I only division (club level).

33oz max weight or production pistol weight +/- 4 oz.

Milling of slides allowed.

But otherwise externally stock like production.

And the whole kit and kaboddle must fit in the box.

Tell me more? Any links?

PPGMD
07-24-2015, 09:05 AM
Tell me more? Any links?

I'm getting most of my information from Facebook. The A6 group is discussing it.

Clay1
07-24-2015, 09:15 AM
Not a facebook member, I'll see what's on the uspsa site, if anything. Thanks

PPGMD
07-30-2015, 04:30 PM
Provisional Rules have been posted.

http://uspsa.org/document_library/2015/APPENDIX-Carry%20Optics%20Provisional%20Division.pdf

Clay1
07-31-2015, 07:52 AM
Thanks for the follow up and solid information.

Lon
07-31-2015, 02:02 PM
Very timely. I'll be sending a top end off for my 229 off to Mark H soon to have an RMR installed. Now I won't have to compete in open.

GJM
07-31-2015, 03:18 PM
Very timely. I'll be sending a top end off for my 229 off to Mark H soon to have an RMR installed. Now I won't have to compete in open.

I would weigh your 229 first -- the rules sure read like Glock/M&P class given the restrictive weight limit.

Lon
07-31-2015, 05:37 PM
I would weigh your 229 first -- the rules sure read like Glock/M&P class given the restrictive weight limit.

I did that today at work. Rules say 35oz. I should have an ounce of so to spare. Gonna do it regardless. It's gonna be my duty/carry gun. Open is fine with me if that's where I end up.

PPGMD
07-31-2015, 09:07 PM
I would weigh your 229 first -- the rules sure read like Glock/M&P class given the restrictive weight limit.

They were quite clear that it is the polymer division, due to the perceived advantage of the heavier guns like the Unicorns, and CZs. They decided to keep them out of CO.

45dotACP
08-01-2015, 02:55 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of unicorn "gamer" gun get developed for Production Optics...like a Grand Power K100 milled for a RDS or something.

GJM
08-01-2015, 03:02 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of unicorn "gamer" gun get developed for Production Optics...like a Grand Power K100 milled for a RDS or something.

A 229 with a great trigger is probably as close to a unicorn as possible. HQ will probably be pissed to learn that the 229 makes weight.

Mr_White
08-02-2015, 10:05 PM
Matt Hopkins' proposal for Tactical Division is far superior to the current version of Carry Optics. It's nearly the same thing I have talked about at times as the 'Duty and Carry' or 'Street' Division. I think Hopkins' division is written more practically for USPSA than what I've come up with.

It really really needs to be inclusive of concealed carry practitioners who try to reach the strongest combination of practical but high performance gear they might actually carry. That means allowing various things not allowed under the provisional CO rules: AIWB, WML, lasers (I forget if allowed now and frankly I don't care to go look), stippling, externally visible modifications. The things done to carry guns. I am down with Minor scoring across the board and a limit on magazine size (but I'd allow them to fill to capacity.) I personally would require either concealment or legit retention gear. Can of worms, yeah I know. I'm no rules guy.

I'm not really sure how to make everything work, and there would be issues. I don't really care. I think if they are going to make a new division in USPSA it needs to be more inclusive than just allowing MRDS on lightweight Production guns and otherwise keeping the existing Production rules. It should grab up everything currently excluded in IDPA.

The other thing that is missing big time from USPSA is a semiauto division that requires a reasonably difficult trigger pull most of the time. 4 lbs? 5 lbs? I don't know, and I laugh at little at calling that a 'reasonably difficult trigger pull.'

I did care about the possibility of a division like this a while back. Despite the ideas above, I don't really care anymore. I have honestly become persuaded of the viewpoint of those who say no new division is necessary at all. Everything I've talked about is already allowed in USPSA. Open and/or Limited allows it all. Nothing wrong with running what you brung. That's what started the game, and I don't recall a single USPSA shooter who I've ever heard express an opinion disrespect that route. Quite frankly, if my made-to-order division existed just the way I wanted, but three people at my local match were shooting it, and maybe ten or fifteen at an Area match, I would probably still shoot Limited (stacked field like mad), because I want to take on a high level of competition, and at my local matches that primarily is the big three - Open, Limited, and Production. There are some excellent shooters in Single Stack, Limited-10, and Revolver, but those divisions are lightly populated. If you mostly care about driving yourself to perform as well as you can muster with what you really use, go where the gun and gear you care about fits, because there is an equal place at the table for you in USPSA. A higher bar only benefits your skills development and increases the standards of performance you internalize.

GJM
08-02-2015, 10:18 PM
Just perusing Area 3 results. 265 shooters with a break down as follows:

Production 89
Limited 84
Open 62
Single Stack 24
Revolver 4
Limited 10 2

Man, we really need another division.

Doug
08-02-2015, 11:21 PM
A 229 with a great trigger is probably as close to a unicorn as possible. HQ will probably be pissed to learn that the 229 makes weight.

Think smart about a 226 full size. It can be done under 35oz.

Rule "Yes, 35oz including empty magazine "

Alpha Sierra
08-03-2015, 06:37 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of unicorn "gamer" gun get developed for Production Optics...like a Grand Power K100 milled for a RDS or something.

You don't have to look that far. A P-09 sent to Cajun Gun Works will game the crap out of this division.

Imagine if a plastic DA/SA pistol tuned to within an inch of the rules dominates, heads at S&W and Glock would explode......

Being hoisted with their own petard comes to mind

PPGMD
08-03-2015, 08:08 AM
It really really needs to be inclusive of concealed carry practitioners who try to reach the strongest combination of practical but high performance gear they might actually carry. That means allowing various things not allowed under the provisional CO rules: AIWB, WML, lasers (I forget if allowed now and frankly I don't care to go look), stippling, externally visible modifications. The things done to carry guns. I am down with Minor scoring across the board and a limit on magazine size (but I'd allow them to fill to capacity.) I personally would require either concealment or legit retention gear. Can of worms, yeah I know. I'm no rules guy.

I made that point as well, the person that actually carries a carry optics gun, typically modifies the gun at least some what.

Real Carry Optics Division
Optics, lights, and lasers allowed
External Modifications Allowed
Striker or DA/SA Only
Must have started as a gun on the NROI Production List
No Comps, Brakes, or large mag wells
Minor scoring
15 round capacity
No limits on holster positions
Maximum barrel length 5"

I think a hard round count limit is better than a maximum size. As that will push it to a particular gun that can get the maximum capacity while staying within the rules. Sort of like STIs dominate limited and open because you can stuff more rounds in the magazine. 15 rounds is enough to fill, or nearly fill the magazines of most of the 9mm guns you would want to bring to the match. And 15 rounds makes this division stand out from all the other divisions.

JRM83
08-03-2015, 12:15 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of unicorn "gamer" gun get developed for Production Optics...like a Grand Power K100 milled for a RDS or something.

Interesting you mentioned this as I have a K100 I am looking to get milled for an RDS for this division right now.

All arguments aside, I am looking forward to this division because it sounds like fun. I don't shoot USPSA to enhance my tacticool skills, I shoot for fun. In order to be interesting for me a new division has to offer something that the other divisions don't. Production I view as the basic division. Limited gets you major PF and all sorts of fun gun crap. Open gives the dot and a comp. Each of these has some very fundamental differences from each other. I like production optics because it provides something that is fundamentally different from production. Yes, you get to shoot the dot in open, but there is a WORLD of difference between production + dot and open. I think this could be a very interesting hybridization of open and production that keeps the essential skills from production (accuracy, reloads, stage planning) while being different enough to remain a compelling choice.

On a side note - if anyone knows a smith/company that will mill a K100 please PM me...

Edwin
08-03-2015, 02:38 PM
If you don't want to shoot a plastic gun, you could always get a alloy framed gun. The 92 Brigadier comes in at 33.3 oz with the heavier slide (compact comes in at 31 oz). I suspect you're going to see a resurgence of alloy frames guns like the rumored P320 competition model with a aluminum frame.

Lon
09-15-2015, 03:49 PM
Here's my Carry Optic pistol. 229R 9mm with RMR.

3889

I'll weigh it tomorrow and update with the weight. The irons are Ameriglo suppressor w/ tritium. I'll post more on it after I shoot it some in the MRDS thread.

Alpha Sierra
09-15-2015, 05:39 PM
Are you going to shoot that at Miamisburg this coming Sunday?

Lon
09-15-2015, 06:14 PM
Not Sunday. But I will Monday night.

Alpha Sierra
09-16-2015, 11:02 AM
Monday night? A local match I didn't know about? Do tell!

Lon
09-16-2015, 11:25 AM
Monday nights from Labor Day to Memorial Day at miamisburg at the indoor range. Been going there for 20 years.

Lon
09-16-2015, 01:54 PM
32.12 oz. according to the evidence scale at work.

Alpha Sierra
09-16-2015, 05:42 PM
Monday nights from Labor Day to Memorial Day at miamisburg at the indoor range. Been going there for 20 years.

Crap that's already begun? I always thought of that as a mid winter thing.

What relay do you normally shoot, I'd like to see that in action

Lon
10-06-2015, 05:48 PM
Shot my first CO match last night. Good times but way too many D hits. Still getting the dog tracking down with this gun. The stock recoil spring sucked for tracking. I dropped down to a 12 lb spring and the dot tracks a lot better. After a few hundred rounds the dot started going off. A little research on PF and I added a piece of tape to the bottom of the battery. Been good since then. Took the top end off my duty gun until I'm sure the problem is resolved. I also had to order a new rear sight. Was WAY off at 25 yards. Like 14" high at 25 yards. Once that new rear sight gets in and I get a few hundred more rounds thru it I'll start carrying it all the time.


http://youtu.be/6RCn2ulIwAo