Are Beretta's and HK's the world best bets out of the box?

[Mark]

The more I read, I read of Gen 4 problems (I love mine), Sig has a long history of QC, and M&P 9's can't hit the broadside of a barn (at least a significant percentage of them).

I know Hackathorn and Wilson endorse the Beretta and just about everyone acknowledges that HK is solid.

If one were to buy a pistol and want it to work out of the box, would most agree that Beretta and HK are your best bets?

[CCT125US]

I don't have enough experience with Berettas to answer that half of the question. Of the 8 HKs I have personal experience with, all have had sights that shoot to POA, and flat out work with whatever I have fed them. So if you subscribe to the "gun work, gun good" train of thought, then in my limited experience, HK is probably a good bet.

[breakingtime91]

I don't have enough experience with Berettas to answer that half of the question. Of the 8 HKs I have personal experience with, all have had sights that shoot to POA, and flat out work with whatever I have fed them. So if you subscribe to the "gun work, gun good" train of thought, then in my limited experience, HK is probably a good bet.

I really enjoy my glock 19 but if I decide to add something more, it works be an hk

[RJ]

Man I sure as heck hope HKs are ok.

I bought a VP9 based on the reviews here and elsewhere. I don't plan to do aanything other than have Trijicon HDs mounted and shoot it.

My M&P is filling in for nightstand duty at the moment. Assuming the HK pans out, I'll likely try and sell it on, Apex DCAEK and all.

[JDM]

If I every change carry guns (I can't imagine that being a thing, but who knows), I would change to an HK of some sort, likely some USPs or P2000s.

All manufacturers make lemons once in a while, but it sure seems to me that HK does it far less often than most other companies.

[Savage Hands]

Seeing more cracked frames on the newer H&K's is disheartening, I'd expect them to be as durable as Glock's polymer.

[LSP972]

Seeing more cracked frames on the newer H&K's is disheartening, I'd expect them to be as durable as Glock's polymer.

Where are you seeing this? And what guns?

.

[Patrin]

Mark, I'm coming around to this conclusion...my own comment from the G19 thread I started:

I'm beginning to arrive at the conclusion that the only out of the box reliable handguns made nowadays are the P226 MK25 with short extractor, P239 (I don't trust the long extractor SIGs yet), older SIGs with short extractors, folded slide SIGs, anything Beretta 92FS and 9mm and most things HK.

It's a bit sad.

I think I'm of the opinion that the P226 MK25 model that SIG currently has in the lineup, coupled with this:

http://grayguns.com/products/sig-sauer-p-series-short-external-extractor/

Makes it THEE most reliable, durable and tested handgun on the market currently.

The new factory SIG MIM short extractor should be fine, being an S7 molding, but I like bar stock parts.

M9 second, USP / HK P-Series tied for third...and third only because I've seen HK P2000 polymer crack in the field...aluminum is superior.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/z1_zpsvnqdo5dr.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/z1_zpsvnqdo5dr.jpg.html)

[LSP972]

...aluminum is superior.

That opinion is not universally shared.

I've yet to see any polymer firearm crack a frame; but I damn sure have seen cracked aluminum frames, in both Sig and S&W trim.

I know about the HK SLIDES that were cracking, most likely due to the semi-nuclear ammo BP was using, but today, in this thread, is the first time I've heard anything about HK polymer frames cracking.

Wait… there was a guy on HKPro some years back, who dropped a USPf onto the sill of his safe door, and cracked something. But that's the same as the idiot who cracked his HK45 slide via cranking down on it in a vise;… IOW, no fault of the design, manufacturer, or materials.

So, please… details on these cracking HK frames.

.

[45dotACP]

No consideration for the PPQ, Sig 320, or a CZ 75? Then again, I'm primarily a 1911 shooter, so by all accounts, I'm underarmed with an unreliable old hunk in a difficult to manage cartridge, so I may not be the best source ;)

[ReverendMeat]

I'd add CZ to the list as well. I hadn't been seeing any reliability issues with them, save for a 97's LCI falling out once.

Edit: Also Walther P99s and PPQs. 9mm only, same goes for CZ. I don't have enough experience on either in .40 to comment.

[LSP972]

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/z1_zpsvnqdo5dr.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/z1_zpsvnqdo5dr.jpg.html)

Ah, okay. That photo didn't come up when I first looked at your post.

Dude… that gun took a spill, attached to a body, from an ATV in rough terrain. Like that fellow, if you took a hit hard enough to break your pistol like that, it wouldn't matter because you would be OUT of the fight.

Anything else?

.

[Patrin]

LSP972, no bud, nothing that I've seen directly and I wasn't with BP (FAMS) when that picture / event circulated.

Through the BP grapevine, I heard of P2000 magwells chipping, but the only malfunction I personally witnessed on any HK gun were some slide release levers popping off....quickly remedied by HK.

The pic gives me pause...polymer vs aluminum / steel...albeit it was probably good for that agent, and his injuries, that it broke.

[Dagga Boy]

If he had an N frame S&W, the picture would be of the gun holding a broken agent......;).

[JodyH]

Cause enough force to snap a polymer frame in half wouldn't even scratch much less bend or crack a aluminum or steel frame at all...

[RevolverRob]

No consideration for the PPQ, Sig 320, or a CZ 75? Then again, I'm primarily a 1911 shooter, so by all accounts, I'm underarmed with an unreliable old hunk in a difficult to manage cartridge, so I may not be the best source ;)

In Patrin's thread there is a mention of issues with the CZ P07. The PPQ is a solid gun, but it sure was beaten with an ugly stick. It's not that the P99 was a beauty to behold, but it had a lot of aesthetic flair to it, with slide cuts here and there and a grip that was shall we say, modestly, stippled. The PPQ looks like the drunken love child of a Glock, a Hi-Point, and a P99. Also the texturing on the grips looks like it was performed by an epileptic with a soldering iron mid-Gran Mal seizure.

The Sig 320 is the gun I really want to like. But I'm irritated that Sig promised full modularity up to and including .45 ACP, but failed to deliver on the .45 front (thus far). To me the major advantage of that platform is its modularity. It appeals to my inner obsessive compulsive in a way I can't quite describe. But not being able to have complete modular control is a personal non-starter. That said if someone didn't have the same OCD problems as me, it seems a solid choice.

I keep waffling between the P250 (which is fully modular, including .45) or saying screw it and going whole hog on a cross-section of Berettas. The hold back on P250s is the occasional report of magazine and/or accuracy issues (which I honestly kind of expect with a modular system). Which pushes me more and more towards Beretta.

-Rob

[45dotACP]

A gentleman I shot a match with had a Sig p250 in 45 jam a few times with one specific magazine. Sample size of one and all, and allegedly the problems are fixed. I did like the trigger though and once he ditched the mag, it worked fine.

[Savage Hands]

Where are you seeing this? And what guns?

.


This is my buddies gun that was dropped on the mag well of his P30:
http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u340/csgunworks/20150409_121439_zpslqaoprfq.jpg

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u340/csgunworks/20150409_121450_zpsl2smiapa.jpg
http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u340/csgunworks/20150409_121542_zpszlirdxag.jpg

[1slow]

If he had an N frame S&W, the picture would be of the gun holding a broken agent......;).

If the cylinder alignment was not badly damaged, depends what you hit on.

[Patrin]

In Patrin's thread there is a mention of issues with the CZ P07. The PPQ is a solid gun, but it sure was beaten with an ugly stick. It's not that the P99 was a beauty to behold, but it had a lot of aesthetic flair to it, with slide cuts here and there and a grip that was shall we say, modestly, stippled. The PPQ looks like the drunken love child of a Glock, a Hi-Point, and a P99. Also the texturing on the grips looks like it was performed by an epileptic with a soldering iron mid-Gran Mal seizure.

I keep waffling between the P250 (which is fully modular, including .45) or saying screw it and going whole hog on a cross-section of Berettas. The hold back on P250s is the occasional report of magazine and/or accuracy issues (which I honestly kind of expect with a modular system). Which pushes me more and more towards Beretta.

-Rob

RevolverRob...your comments on the PPQ mirror my feeling on it. My neighbor has one and he wanted me too look at it, as he said it was running "sluggish". Turned out he never lubed it from out of the box and the thing was bone dry. I cleaned it and, being a self-taught armorer of sorts, detail stripped, and got her lubed up real good. Great trigger, too light for carry IMO, but I felt the plastic fire control unit and frame seemed sort of cheap. Not HK or Glock polymer quality. The PPQ's due seem to run though.

On the P320, I'm watching the development of the gun. One thing I've noticed, in my intermittent reading on them, is a more than once occurrence of failure to ejects on some guns. Could be nothing, a couple guns, but something I noticed. FAMS tested out the older P250 in .357SIG and had a lot of reliability problems...stovepipes and FTE's. I hope it's not related and, even if it is, I think SIG will make the P320 run like a sewing machine before long given the investment in the platform.

[Robinson]

No consideration for the PPQ, Sig 320, or a CZ 75? Then again, I'm primarily a 1911 shooter, so by all accounts, I'm underarmed with an unreliable old hunk in a difficult to manage cartridge, so I may not be the best source ;)

You might as well not even carry a gun!

waitaminute...

[Patrin]

You might as well not even carry a gun!

waitaminute...

Less it's a Springfield Professional or a WC:cool:...but then we are moving away from service pistols, which is what I think Mark is referring too.

[Sigfan26]

Of my 5 Beretta 92 series (a police trade 92s, 92 Inox early enough to still have stainless extractor, 2 92G's, and a BrigTac) pistols I own, none fail to impress. Both the HK P7's I owned were excellent, my P2000 was only ditched due to the LEM. As far as DA/SA guns go, I'd only buy Beretta or HK (nod to Beretta for my favorite DA trigger pull). Striker, I still prefer Glock (the trough on the VP9 trigger guard is extremely uncomfortable for me). You won't go wrong with an HK or a Beretta.

[HCM]

Mark, I'm coming around to this conclusion...my own comment from the G19 thread I started:

I'm beginning to arrive at the conclusion that the only out of the box reliable handguns made nowadays are the P226 MK25 with short extractor, P239 (I don't trust the long extractor SIGs yet), older SIGs with short extractors, folded slide SIGs, anything Beretta 92FS and 9mm and most things HK.

It's a bit sad.

I think I'm of the opinion that the P226 MK25 model that SIG currently has in the lineup, coupled with this:

http://grayguns.com/products/sig-sauer-p-series-short-external-extractor/

Makes it THEE most reliable, durable and tested handgun on the market currently.

The new factory SIG MIM short extractor should be fine, being an S7 molding, but I like bar stock parts.

M9 second, USP / HK P-Series tied for third...and third only because I've seen HK P2000 polymer crack in the field...aluminum is superior.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/z1_zpsvnqdo5dr.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/z1_zpsvnqdo5dr.jpg.html)

As LSP noted, that frame was the result of an agent flipping an ATV. There are photos of a P2000 an agent left in the oven too. I've seen a few P2000's with the nose/spring box of the slide broken off due to hot ammo and failure to change recoil springs but I've never seen an HK polymer frame crack from firing.

Don't bake your HK:

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr324/hcm3156/Hans%20Sale/BurnedFirearm1.jpg

[JodyH]

I've seen one P2000 .40 with a frame cracked from shooting. It belonged to a USBP Agent/FLETC instructor who also used it in competition. He said in 5 years of hard use it had never had a single spring changed because of lazy/non-existent armorers at his duty stations and rules against doing it yourself.

[CSW]

I'm a Gen 3 owner when it comes to Glocks. I own several, and came to own most used, as the previous owners ditched them to purchase Gen4 guns, or go to different platforms. I've never had any issues with ANY of my Gen 3 guns.
My Beretta Vertec was purchased new when they were introduced, and has been trouble free since round one. It has several thousand thu it, and if it has any faults, it'd be the factory sights....easily remedied.
I cannot compare to any HK pistols, although I've owned the HK Tactical in 45, and a USPc with LEM in 40. Never kept either long enough to consider a comparison.
My experience with Sig has always been satisfactory, a P228 purchased in 1991 still runs strong, and has never malfunctioned. Same experience in a P229 in .40. P245 ran fine. M11a1, no issues. My pocket gun, the P938, has been ultra reliable since purchase, with incredible accuracy for the size of the handgun.
Recently, I acquired a P226 in 9mm. It is a gun built in 2013, and has nary a problem, except for the long reset so common in Sig's guns. A simple fix with the SRT.
Truth be told, my experience would be that they are all reliable weapons, it's the consumers choice for platform and use.

[Jared]

There's been enough talk over the years about the shortcomings of the 40 cal Beretta's to keep my from being wild about them, but the 9mm 92's have been absolutely wonderful pistols for me since 2011 reliability wise. I haven't had a stoppage that wasn't ammo related, and there have only been two of those, over the four years I've been a Beretta user.

I don't have an equal amount of time on the HK guns, but I did own a couple and have been around while my cousin shot his HK's pretty heavy. Never seen an HK stoppage. Everything else that I've owned or my shooting family has owned, I've seen something or another that gave me pause.

So yeah, in my admittedly limited experience, I'd probably agree with the OP about the HK and Beretta thing.

[fixer]

I'm certainly partial to the 92 and would stick my neck out and say there is a lot to the notion that the 92 is as sure of a bet out of the box as it can get.

[LSP972]

If he had an N frame S&W, the picture would be of the gun holding a broken agent......;).


Dunno, man; I've seen a couple that were bent beyond repair due to subduing suspects via non-projectile methods, and one heinous wreck where the officer was 10-7

But they were K frames… so you may be right.

.

[LSP972]

This is my buddies gun that was dropped on the mag well of his P30:
http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u340/csgunworks/20150409_121439_zpslqaoprfq.jpg

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u340/csgunworks/20150409_121450_zpsl2smiapa.jpg
http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u340/csgunworks/20150409_121542_zpszlirdxag.jpg

Would that be the same fellow who posted on HKPro a while back; he had dropped it putting it back in the safe and it hit the bottom ledge of the safe's door? Although, I think that was an HK45. The damage was about the same as that, IIRC.

Anyway, yes, I'll agree that the P30 is a bit thin in that area.

Okay, I see where you fellows are coming from. The way ya'll phrased it, it just sounded a bit like there was an outbreak or something.

.

[LSP552]

Dunno, man; I've seen a couple that were bent beyond repair due to subduing suspects via non-projectile methods, and one heinous wreck where the officer was 10-7

But they were K frames… so you may be right.

.

I'm personally aware of a fellow Narc who tried to extract a suspect through the side window of a car. Step one was trying to break the window with his 2 1/2" 66. The window didn't break but it did bend the trigger guard bent so much that it blocked the trigger. I wasn't at the scene but handled the revolver later. The trigger guard was mashed in enough to physically prevent pulling the trigger.

Fortunately, the turd was convinced of the seriousness of his situation and decided to give up without a gunfight.

[RevolverRob]

I'm personally aware of a fellow Narc who tried to extract a suspect through the side window of a car. Step one was trying to break the window with his 2 1/2" 66. The window didn't break but it did bend the trigger guard bent so much that it blocked the trigger. I wasn't at the scene but handled the revolver later. The trigger guard was mashed in enough to physically prevent pulling the trigger.

Fortunately, the turd was convinced of the seriousness of his situation and decided to give up without a gunfight.

According to internet lore -

If it had been a GP100 or Security Six it would have shattered the window into a thousand pieces and stopped the perp by presence of its mere might and strength when pointed at him.

If it had been a .44 Special N-Frame Smith it would have shattered the window simply by being waved in the general direction of the window and stopped the perp when he realized he was in the presence of a Holy Symbol.

If it had been a Colt Python, the window would have not only bent the trigger guard, it would have smashed the glass-like lockwork inside and rendered the gun completely out of time. The perp, recognizing it was a Colt, would have laughed derisively in your direction and given up because he was laughing so hard and wanted to tell the other inmates the story.

-Rob

[John Hearne]

The Sig 320 is the gun I really want to like. But I'm irritated that Sig promised full modularity up to and including .45 ACP, but failed to deliver on the .45 front (thus far). To me the major advantage of that platform is its modularity. It appeals to my inner obsessive compulsive in a way I can't quite describe. But not being able to have complete modular control is a personal non-starter. That said if someone didn't have the same OCD problems as me, it seems a solid choice.

I think that Sig made a very big promise without fully appreciating what that meant. The fact the P320 in 45 ACP is not backwards convertible to 9/40/357 doesn't bother me as long as the 45 works and is durable. My only gripe with the P320 is the lack of a factory manual safety. I am not a striker-fired 9mm guy but the P320 sings a very interesting siren song.

There is a lot to like about the P320, especially from the standpoint of an LE duty gun.

[JTQ]

As far as DA/SA guns go, I'd only buy Beretta or HK (nod to Beretta for my favorite DA trigger pull).

Certainly a bold endorsement from a guy with a screen name of Sigfan26.:)

[Highplains45]

... My only gripe with the P320 is the lack of a factory manual safety.

I asked this when visiting with a company administrator, pointing out that other single action designs, S&W and Springfield Armory, offer manual safety options. I suggested that other single action designs (1911 types) offered manual safety systems inherent to their design. I was told that it was unlikely unless a major agency insisted.

Company focus was getting the gun into LE hands. First effort was pricing them at $250.00 for select customers and giving them to a certain classes of agencies for promotional purposes.

[Sigfan26]

Certainly a bold endorsement from a guy with a screen name of Sigfan26.:)

Lol. I owned a lot of early sigs for quite a while

[Savage Hands]

No it is not the same guy, this happened at the range.

[John Hearne]

I was told that it was unlikely unless a major agency insisted.

There are pictures of guns with tweaked slide catch levers and manual safeties that Sig developed for the modular handgun contract. I don't know if they're just mockups but the concept has at least been thought about by Sig.

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/IMG_8283-440x328.jpg

[GJM]

I love the 320, and it is my favorite striker.

However, after doing some shirt tail and cord lock testing, as an outgrowth of the LAV AIWB thread, this boy is carrying a DA hammer gun or thumb safety when at all possible. The 320 Compact slide with either the Compact or Carry lower and a thumb safety would seem an ideal uniformed duty, under cover or CCW pistol. It is ironic that essentially a reconfigured Sig 250, that was pretty universally panned, could be the pistol that brings Sig success, again, in the LE market.

[YVK]

Ive been shoooting B92s and P-series HKs for almost four years straight now and I wanted to jump in and say how great they were, once I figured the trs replacement schedule. Then I remembered that my last P30 acquisition has been in an armorer's hands for a week now while he's trying to figure out why it doesn't run normally...It is possible that I effed it up somehow but the verdict is not in yet.

[LSP552]

Ive been shoooting B92s and P-series HKs for almost four years straight now and I wanted to jump in and say how great they were, once I figured the trs replacement schedule. Then I remembered that my last P30 acquisition has been in an armorer's hands for a week now while he's trying to figure out why it doesn't run normally...It is possible that I effed it up somehow but the verdict is not in yet.

YVK,

Sorry I've forgotten, but what configuration are you using on the HK Ps? Thanks

[YVK]

All of mine are LEMs, most of them have visited Grayguns, sprung differently according to intended role. The misbehaving P30 is a stock V2; we think a faulty trigger bar, either from the factory or messed up by me during a trs change.

[LSP552]

All of mine are LEMs, most of them have visited Grayguns, sprung differently according to intended role. The misbehaving P30 is a stock V2; we think a faulty trigger bar, either from the factory or messed up by me during a trs change.

Thanks! I knew most had GrayGuns magic, just didn't remember if LEM or not. My favorite blaster, and gun in my holster when I retired, is a GGI DA/SA 226.

[YVK]

Considering how good Sig triggers are as is, I can only imagine what GGI 226 is like.

[ralph]

................................................

[ralph]

This is my buddies gun that was dropped on the mag well of his P30:
http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u340/csgunworks/20150409_121439_zpslqaoprfq.jpg

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u340/csgunworks/20150409_121450_zpsl2smiapa.jpg
http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u340/csgunworks/20150409_121542_zpszlirdxag.jpg

I think I remember seeing that over at HKpro... What did he end up doing with it??

[GJM]

I think I remember seeing that over at HKpro... What did he end up doing with it??

HK made it into the original prototype for the P30SK.

[BaiHu]

HK made it into the original prototype for the P30SK.
Bazinga!

[BehindBlueI's]

I think Sig has shaken out most of the QC issues. I've been quite happy with mine, and have not had any reliability issues.

[LSP552]

Considering how good Sig triggers are as is, I can only imagine what GGI 226 is like.

The DA is like a good revolver, smooth with NO stacking. The SA is also outstanding. I have the Reduced Reset Comprehensive Duty Package, so it's not game only light, just an outstanding working tool. The reset is shorter than a stock gun, but ever so slightly longer than a SIG SRT. The difference isn't enough to cause me problems shooting my other SIGs with SRTs. The difference major difference is the SRT guns generally have SA creep and the GGI is like a 1911, pressure and break without any noticeable creep at all.

[Lon]

I think Sig has shaken out most of the QC issues.

I wouldn't bet on that. At least as of January '14.

In the classes I've taught (CCW, Police in service and Police Academy) over the years, I've seen problems from every major brand out there except HK and Beretta. But I rarely see Berettas and HKs in class.

[Sigfan26]

Just had a customer with a Sig P224 .40 S&W that still had FTF with all major ammo brands from round 1 to round 400.

[breakingtime91]

I love the 320, and it is my favorite striker.

However, after doing some shirt tail and cord lock testing, as an outgrowth of the LAV AIWB thread, this boy is carrying a DA hammer gun or thumb safety when at all possible. The 320 Compact slide with either the Compact or Carry lower and a thumb safety would seem an ideal uniformed duty, under cover or CCW pistol. It is ironic that essentially a reconfigured Sig 250, that was pretty universally panned, could be the pistol that brings Sig success, again, in the LE market.

why not a g19 with gadget?

[Savage Hands]

I think I remember seeing that over at HKpro... What did he end up doing with it??


Nothing yet as the California Roster makes it difficult to have the frame replaced for non-LEO's.

[ReverendMeat]

I think Sig has shaken out most of the QC issues. I've been quite happy with mine, and have not had any reliability issues.

My experience has been the opposite of yours.

[BehindBlueI's]

My experience has been the opposite of yours.

Everyone puts out a dog sometimes. The least reliable pistol I've ever owned was a 3rd gen Glock, followed closely by a Beretta with mag issues. They are the exception, though, and I'd trust either brand again knowing that.

[Lon]

Everyone puts out a dog sometimes.

I know that. But 4 LEO 226's out of 30 taking a shit within 500 rounds (2 within 50 rounds) is more than that.

[John Hearne]

I know that. But 4 LEO 226's out of 30 taking a shit within 500 rounds (2 within 50 rounds) is more than that.

Do you know what the problem was? Sig turned out a bunch of P226's where the hole for the sear spring tensioning pin was too big. Eventually that pin would work out and tie up the gun. It takes a while for the pin to work out so those pistols are still occasionally going TU. I had another officer's personally owned P226 go down this spring with this exact same issue.

As a long term critic of Sig quality, I think that they have turned the corner and are now making pistols durable enough for most typical applications. I honestly doubt that we'll ever see Sigs of the quality of the 90's. It's just cost prohibitive to make guns to those standards any more.

[Lon]

Out of spec trigger bars and springs is what we were told. They are going to replace the parts on all of the guns (226s, 229s have been ok) we bought. One of them had the pin that holds the sear spring come off. They replaced that as well.

[Lon]

The other three ended up with dead triggers. They would shoot and cycle but then the trigger wouldn't reset. 2 weeks ago a neighboring dept had one of their new unissued 229DAKs start doing the same thing in the first few hundred rounds.

[Sigfan26]

Out of spec trigger bars and springs is what we were told. They are going to replace the parts on all of the guns (226s, 229s have been ok) we bought. One of them had the pin that holds the sear spring come off. They replaced that as well.


The other three ended up with dead triggers. They would shoot and cycle but then the trigger wouldn't reset. 2 weeks ago a neighboring dept had one of their new unissued 229DAKs start doing the same thing in the first few hundred rounds.

That's some scary S**t.

[Patrin]

That's some scary S**t.

In the age of the finest manufacturing capability known to man...it is terribly sad.

[ReverendMeat]

Everyone puts out a dog sometimes. The least reliable pistol I've ever owned was a 3rd gen Glock, followed closely by a Beretta with mag issues. They are the exception, though, and I'd trust either brand again knowing that.

Two dogs, one of which I was able to fix (2013 mfg 226), and the other (2015 mfg M11A1) took two trips back to the factory without the issue being resolved. Those were ones that I've personally owned. I also have a larger sample size of guns that I've sold and came back with problems, or have had to send back to SIG before being sold because they couldn't pass a simple function test.

[Patrin]

Two dogs, one of which I was able to fix (2013 mfg 226), and the other (2015 mfg M11A1) took two trips back to the factory without the issue being resolved. Those were ones that I've personally owned. I also have a larger sample size of guns that I've sold and came back with problems, or have had to send back to SIG before being sold because they couldn't pass a simple function test.

You may have already answered this...what was the issue with the P226? Long extractor?

Far as I am concerned...P224's or P938's, what have you, are not in the same category when measuring SIG reliability.

Classic P-Series is the measure...P210 / P226 / P220 / P228 / P225 / P229 / P239 / P245...those are the guns that set the SIG standard and stay true to the P-Series blueprint. Folded slides and short extractors and you are good to go...100%. Long extractors...well maybe with 10 more years of data, they could be good...sear spring pins holes out of whack...that's really screwed up. By and large, the vintage I described are some of the most reliable guns made by man.

[Patrin]

Man I've got problems...just watched a 30 min review of WC Brigadier Tactical 92 and was drooling...the fat finger in the DA pull was, how do I say it, epically therapeutic...I put one on back order. Damn.

[ReverendMeat]

Patrin,

My 226 has a long external extractor, and I haven't yet had any stoppages extractor-related or otherwise. But at around 900 rounds or so the sear spring pin fell out (other mention of it in this thread is the first time I've heard of it happening to anyone else). I installed a replacement pin and given the amount of effort it took to install I highly doubt it's going to fall out again. This leads me to believe that the original pin was too small, rather than the hole for the pin too large.

[Patrin]

MIM QC control...shouldn't of happened, no excuse, but in the MIM world, it does. Per the long extractor, Bruce Gray is coming out with a bar stock version and, IMO, will make the new design very, very reliable.

[BehindBlueI's]

I know that. But 4 LEO 226's out of 30 taking a shit within 500 rounds (2 within 50 rounds) is more than that.

Same batch? That's how dogs work, they run in packs.

Our Gen 3 Glock 22s had FTE issues. Glock replaced the mags, no better. Mine would FTE about once in every 40 rounds, and it was representative of the lot, and we have about 1600 officers. Glock never could figure out the issue, and we went to Gen 4s and have had no issues. Other departments around us have had no issues with the Gen 3s. Our state police had issues with the firing pins in their Glock 21s. Second hand info, but apparently they were mushrooming on the tips, so I'd say a bad batch of firing pins. How many Glocks run just fine? Almost all of them...but you put enough out there on the market and you're going to have a bad batch sometimes. No large scale manufacturer of complex machines is going to me immune from that. As a whole, though, I think you've got a very safe bet on your hands that a Glock, Sig, H&K, Beretta, etc. will run just fine out of the box.

[Jim Watson]

Considering how good Sig triggers are as is, I can only imagine what GGI 226 is like.

Very fine.
I have a GGI P226 with everything IDPA allows and it is a truly fine DA/SA. But I still preferred the 1911 as a match gun so the P226 got stock springs, hollowpoints, and a convenient location if I need to repel boarders.
Teddy Jacobsen did a nice job on my P220, too, but I don't know if he is still in business.
Both are reliable. They were before tuneup but a slicker DA is a big help.

[CSW]

Out of spec trigger bars and springs is what we were told. They are going to replace the parts on all of the guns (226s, 229s have been ok) we bought. One of them had the pin that holds the sear spring come off. They replaced that as well.

Was there a specific production run, or near production date in common with the guns that malfunctioned? I recently acquired a P226, with a pro. date of 6/29/13 that runs really well short of the damn Sig long trigger reset.
Curious?

Chris~

[jondoe297]

I've seen one P2000 .40 with a frame cracked from shooting. It belonged to a USBP Agent/FLETC instructor who also used it in competition. He said in 5 years of hard use it had never had a single spring changed because of lazy/non-existent armorers at his duty stations and rules against doing it yourself.

Same here. I wonder if we know the same guy.

[HCM]

I've seen one P2000 .40 with a frame cracked from shooting. It belonged to a USBP Agent/FLETC instructor who also used it in competition. He said in 5 years of hard use it had never had a single spring changed because of lazy/non-existent armorers at his duty stations and rules against doing it yourself.

I beleive it with no spring changes combined with the "company" ammo, which was, until recently +P+ hot. Most agents will shoot the minimum 600-1000 rounds per year, so your Amigo likely put the equivilent of 5-10 years of wear on the gun in a year.

As for the lack of preventive maintenance on a piece of gear your life may depend on, sometimes you gotta do what you need to do.

[Trooper224]

Over the last year and a half I've been working with the Beretta 92 and after nearly twenty thousand rounds through three pistols I have come to one conclusion: I would willingly take it anywhere and into anything that might require a handgun. I have no sense of fanboy brand loyalty and that pistol has impressed me mightily.

[Paladin]

I've got sig p226 long extractor that i've put about 2500 rounds thru and not a hiccup it's run like a top and i've also got a gen 4 od green glock 19 that i've put 700 to a 1000 rounds thru that has weak extraction and so far 1 brass to the face that just happened on the last outing that i hope is not a picture of whats to come. By the way from what i've read over on the sig forum they say the long extractor got a bad rap and it was never the problem it was a chamber issue that got blamed on the extractor either way mine has been flawless so far.

Rick