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Mr_White
07-17-2015, 12:32 PM
Week 121: Hackathorn Standards

Results may be posted until August 17th, 2015.

Designed by: Ken Hackathorn, variations by Ben Stoeger and Gabe White
Range: 5-25 yards
Target: USPSA Metric or IDPA
Start Position: varies
Rounds Fired: 60

The Hackathorn Standards are a revered standard in the tactical training world and are what the IDPA Classifier is based on. The Hackathorn Standards have several versions that vary by par time. You can choose which version(s) you want to shoot.

Setup: Place three USPSA Metric or IDPA targets one yard apart at staggered heights of 5', 6', and 4' (from left to right.) A vertical barricade of some kind is also needed.

Scoring: Anywhere in the head = 5 points, A/-0 zone = 5 points, C/-1 zone = 3 points, D/-3 zone = 2 points, miss = 0 points. If a head shot is required and it hits somewhere in the body, it counts as a miss. If a body shot is required and it hits somewhere in the head, it still scores 5 points. No make-up/extra shots are allowed. There are 300 points possible. Traditionally, a score below 200 Needs Improvement, 200-249 is Acceptable, and 250 or more is Excellent.

Concealment is not required. All strings of fire start from the holster with hands at sides, and may be fired freestyle (two hands) unless otherwise specified. All shots are to the body unless the head is specified.

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Kiddie Version - (only two shooters are known to have shot a perfect 300 on the "Kiddie Version" - Kyle Defoor and Ben Stoeger.) Each par time has a .3 second grace period - for example, if the par time is 3 seconds, only shots over 3.3 seconds are officially over time and count as misses.

String 1: 5 yards, draw and fire one shot to each head - 3 seconds
String 2: 5 yards, SHO, draw and fire one shot to each head - 4 seconds
String 3: 5 yards, SHO, draw and fire one shot to each body - 3 seconds
String 4: 5 yards, SHO, draw and fire one shot to each body - 3 seconds (repeat of String 3)

String 5: 8 yards, draw and fire two shots to the left target - 2 seconds
String 6: 8 yards, draw and fire two shots to the center target - 2 seconds
String 7: 8 yards, draw and fire two shots to the right target - 2 seconds

String 8: 10 yards, El Presidente, begin facing uprange with exactly six rounds in pistol, on signal, turn, draw, fire two shots to each target, reload from slidelock, and fire two shots to each target - 10 seconds

String 9: 10 yards, weak hand pickup, begin standing, pistol is on the ground with butt towards strong side, on signal retrieve handgun WHO and fire one shot to each target WHO from kneeling or standing - 5 seconds

String 10: 12-8 yards, draw and fire two shots to each target while advancing from 12 to 8 yards - 5 seconds

String 11: 15 yards, (transition drill) begin with hands at shoulder level as if holding a rifle, on signal draw handgun and fire one shot to each target - 4 seconds

String 12: 20 yards, (prone drill) begin standing, on signal draw and drop to prone and fire two shots to each target - 10 seconds

String 13: 25 yards, (barricade drill) begin standing behind barricade, on signal draw and fire two shots to each target from cover while standing, perform a tactical/retention reload, then fire two shots to each target from kneeling behind barricade - 24 seconds

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Manly Man Version (Ben Stoeger variation) - only increase par times by .2 seconds per string if shooting from concealment, otherwise no grace period.

String 1: 5 yards, draw and fire one shot to each head - 2.5 seconds
String 2: 5 yards, SHO, draw and fire one shot to each head - 3.5 seconds
String 3: 5 yards, SHO, draw and fire one shot to each body - 2.5 seconds
String 4: 5 yards, SHO, draw and fire one shot to each body - 2.5 seconds (repeat of String 3)

String 5: 8 yards, draw and fire two shots to the left target - 1.2 seconds
String 6: 8 yards, draw and fire two shots to the center target - 1.2 seconds
String 7: 8 yards, draw and fire two shots to the right target - 1.2 seconds

String 8: 10 yards, El Presidente, begin facing uprange with exactly six rounds in pistol, on signal, turn, draw, fire two shots to each target, reload from slidelock, and fire two shots to each target - 6.5 seconds

String 9: 10 yards, weak hand pickup, begin standing, pistol is on the ground with butt towards strong side, on signal retrieve handgun WHO and fire one shot to each target WHO from kneeling or standing - 4 seconds

String 10: 12-8 yards, draw and fire two shots to each target while advancing from 12 to 8 yards - 3.5 seconds

String 11: 15 yards, (transition drill) begin with hands at shoulder level as if holding a rifle, on signal draw handgun and fire one shot to each target - 3 seconds

String 12: 20 yards, (prone drill) begin standing, on signal draw and drop to prone and fire two shots to each target - 7 seconds

String 13: 25 yards, (barricade drill) begin standing behind barricade, on signal draw and fire two shots to each target from cover while standing, perform a tactical/retention reload, then fire two shots to each target from kneeling behind barricade - 11 seconds

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Revised Turbo Version (Gabe White variation) - there's no grace period on the streets, so no grace period on this course either, you just need to keep up.

String 1: 5 yards, draw and fire one shot to each head - 2 seconds
String 2: 5 yards, SHO, draw and fire one shot to each head - 3 seconds
String 3: 5 yards, SHO, draw and fire one shot to each body - 2 seconds
String 4: 5 yards, SHO, draw and fire one shot to each body - 2 seconds (repeat of String 3)

String 5: 8 yards, draw and fire two shots to the left target - 1.1 seconds
String 6: 8 yards, draw and fire two shots to the center target - 1.1 seconds
String 7: 8 yards, draw and fire two shots to the right target - 1.1 seconds

String 8: 10 yards, El Presidente, begin facing uprange with exactly six rounds in pistol, on signal, turn, draw, fire two shots to each target, reload from slidelock, and fire two shots to each target - 6 seconds

String 9: 10 yards, weak hand pickup, begin standing, pistol is on the ground with butt towards strong side, on signal retrieve handgun WHO and fire one shot to each target WHO from kneeling or standing - 4 seconds

String 10: 12-8 yards, draw and fire two shots to each target while advancing from 12 to 8 yards - 3 seconds

String 11: 15 yards, (transition drill) begin with hands at shoulder level as if holding a rifle, on signal draw handgun and fire one shot to each target - 3 seconds

String 12: 20 yards, (prone drill) begin standing, on signal draw and drop to prone and fire two shots to each target - 6 seconds

String 13: 25 yards, (barricade drill) begin standing behind barricade, on signal draw and fire two shots to each target from cover while standing, perform a tactical/retention reload, then fire two shots to each target from kneeling behind barricade - 10 seconds

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Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used (gun, holster, concealment if any)
Version you shot
Total number of points out of 300 possible
Anything you noticed

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Video of Ben Stoeger's perfect 300 point run on the Kiddie Version:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDFqvz8CaWQ

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

JHC
07-17-2015, 01:33 PM
Just for the record the so called "Kiddie" version is also the original Delta version; is it not? Eh? Eh?

No combat roll. Good.

Mr_White
07-17-2015, 01:47 PM
Just for the record the so called "Kiddie" version is also the original Delta version; is it not? Eh? Eh?

No combat roll. Good.

I'm not really sure of the answer to your actual question. As I understand it, the Original had the combat rolls, point shooting, and I think I read about some uprange facing start where you drew and shot behind you without facing downrange (vague recollection, sorry no reference there) though the document I have doesn't show that last part. I don't know which one Delta used, though I've always assumed it to be the one now referred to as the "Kiddie" version.

This one is going to be fun!

JHC
07-17-2015, 01:53 PM
It is. And here I'm trying to get more in the "zone" of Pat Mac performance based instead of outcome based and I am sucked in with chasing another number. LOL

Mr_White
07-17-2015, 02:12 PM
It is. And here I'm trying to get more in the "zone" of Pat Mac performance based instead of outcome based and I am sucked in with chasing another number. LOL

Well, lol is right for me on that too. One thing I find really fun about the different par time variations on the Hack is the different character of shooting they make me (try to) produce. Many of the Kiddie Version's par times are painfully slow to me and it's really tough to use the time available - not that I have shot it clean, though I have come really close. My original Turbo version was halved pars across the board. Ben was right about that one; it's just too hard. I'd lose a ton of points to running out of time. If I made it happen within the par times there would be a lot of bad shots involved. The Revised Turbo version is reasonably doable, but many parts are still quite unforgiving. Ben's Manly Man version has pretty well thought out par times IMHO. They get a doable amount of time pressure involved without making the wheels come completely off. But the tougher par times definitely make it more of a challenge to get on the board with any points.

There are two sayings that I think are well-applied to these different versions of the Hack:

"If you aren't accurate enough, it doesn't matter how fast you are." (Original and Kiddie Versions)

"If you aren't fast enough, it doesn't matter how accurate you are." (Manly Man and Turbo Versions)

Mr_White
07-17-2015, 04:31 PM
Posting this on behalf of a someone who doesn't normally post publicly but wanted to get in on this one:



Equipment used (gun, holster, concealment if any): G43, Talon Tactical holster and magazine pouch, magazines with finger extensions, Warren night sights
Version you shot: Kiddie Version with IDPA targets
Total number of points: 240/300


Nicely done Sir!

jlw
07-17-2015, 04:34 PM
Many of the Kiddie Version's par times are painfully slow to me

Cyborging ain't easy.

Mr_White
07-17-2015, 04:44 PM
Cyborging ain't easy.

Lol!

Well...I tried to be really clear that I haven't cleaned the Hack under those par times, so I don't mean that I'm just 'better' than the standard set - I am not. It's just that on the time component, I'm as careful as I feel like I can make myself be and I still haven't used all the time (on some of the strings anyway.) Some people would probably characterize that as a self-control issue on my part. ;)

cheshire_cat
07-17-2015, 05:03 PM
I shot the kitty version less than a month ago (G34 OWB Blackhawk DOH) and got a 234. It pains for me to read that the times are painfully slow for you, because they are not slow for me!

nwhpfan
07-19-2015, 10:00 PM
294 - first thing I shot today.

Glock 34; USPSA Production Gear

Dropped 1 on shooting while moving, which is a pretty lazy place to drop a shot. Dropped two on prone shooting which I think is pretty difficult. Ended up prone shooting as practice. Captured one with my cell phone. Still wasn't clean. In about 10 reps, I only cleaned 1. Usually dropped 1, sometimes two. Here's a vid.
http://youtu.be/cfmB1W8HO4Y.

cheby
07-20-2015, 01:03 PM
272
CZ SP-01 Shadow; USPSA Production Gear
Ran out of time on the weak hand pick up - I need to work on my week hand shooting.

Mr_White
07-20-2015, 05:25 PM
nwhpfan and cheby - which version did you guys shoot? Kiddie/standard version, or one of the variations? In any case, excellent job!

nwhpfan
07-20-2015, 07:38 PM
nwhpfan and cheby - which version did you guys shoot? Kiddie/standard version, or one of the variations? In any case, excellent job!

Kity...meow.

cheby
07-20-2015, 07:54 PM
nwhpfan and cheby - which version did you guys shoot? Kiddie/standard version, or one of the variations? In any case, excellent job!

Kiddie/standard version

BCL
07-21-2015, 01:18 PM
USPSA production gear w/SP01 (not a shadow).

Shot the kitty version cold today and sucked bad. Got a 238. I need to go to the range and dry fire more.

MVS
07-21-2015, 07:51 PM
Equipment used (gun, holster, concealment if any) Gen 3 G19 w/RMR, Fricke holster, tshirt concealment.
Version you shot Kiddie version
Total number of points out of 300 possible 267
Anything you noticed To be honest I used the .3 grace time on a few of the runs. I simply wasn't shooting fast enough on the close stuff. I dry fired it last night to determine which version to run. Ran it cold tonight.

Mr_White
07-22-2015, 12:43 PM
Gen3 G34, Keeper holster concealed under a t-shirt
Kitty Version
298/300

Things I noticed:

Been a long time since I messed around with this. Had kind of a Hack-fest over the weekend. Par times are hard for me. They usually end up being highly artificial, either a lot longer than I need or shorter than I can do well. The Kitty Version of the Hack has long par times for me on some strings. I really tried to use the time available and in at least one case I went over the actual par but was fortunately within the .3 second grace period. Also, I accidentally used the wrong start position on the transition drill - instead of holding my arms as if gripping a rifle, I did a wrists above shoulders start. Not much practical difference, but not quite the right start position. One shot on the middle target, about 1/8th inch out...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxIku_z4gfU

breakingtime91
07-22-2015, 12:48 PM
awesome shooting man, keep up the good work.

the_swede
07-22-2015, 05:14 PM
Not too shabby Mr_White! :)

Mr_White
07-23-2015, 02:02 PM
Thanks you breakingtime91 and the_swede. Took another crack at the Kitty Version yesterday afternoon. Dropped two, one at the 20 yard prone and one at the 25.

Gen3 G34, Keeper holster concealed under a polo shirt
Kitty Version
296/300


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf9inSOAGco

Mr_White
07-23-2015, 05:31 PM
Gen3 G34, in a Keeper concealed under a t-shirt
Manly Man Version
270/300

Things I noticed: a lot of these par times are just about right for me to shoot a very certain, on-demand/match pace, particularly on the closer strings. The ones that feel tough for me are the prone and barricade shooting at 20 and 25 yards. Not really because of the par times themselves, it's more that the shooting itself is just hard, whether I take a lot of time or a little time. I'd still like to try this one again - had a lot of close Cs that I feel like I should be able to turn into As. Of course it's all easier said than done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnypTF90bQg

Mr_White
07-24-2015, 12:49 PM
Gen3 G34, in a Keeper concealed under a polo shirt
Revised Turbo Version
258/300

This is the last of the Hack-fest from last weekend. I made up the Revised Turbo Version a long time ago, trying to solve my problem with par times - that they are arbitrary and usually feel too short or too long for me. These times were meant to be reflective of me shooting and gunhandling at my full natural speed. They are probably overly ambitious as well, given how many points I drop compared to other versions of the Hack. Still, it is a different and fun flavor of this standard. Some of the times are pretty tough and if anything goes wrong I'll probably have overtime shots. 258 is probably not too bad considering how many points could easily be lost to overtime shots. Would still like to do better though.

I'd kind of like to try it one more time soon, and shoot it at an on-demand, match pace (would be slower than the Revised Turbo version, but faster than the Kitty/Standard Version) and not use a par time at all. Just shoot it, record my time, and let that tell me what my par times 'ought' to be. I bet I will find that I just recreate something pretty close to Ben's Manly Man version.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J7RFplAKLo

taadski
07-28-2015, 11:59 AM
I shot this cold, first rounds out of the gun in a session this week. After listening to one of Stoeger's recent podcasts, I'd pre-promised myself that I'd post whatever the results were in the interest of conjuring up some "performance stress" in training. Welp, it worked. :p Not too proud of this one, but….

USPSA metric targets
Duty gear (Level III 6360 Safariland holster)
Sig 226
"Delta" version (that sounds a lot better than "kiddie") ;)
267/300


Out of the gates (string 2) I flinched badly and threw a mike on the one handed head shot. :mad: On the whole, the time standards for this version are pretty manageable for me. I suspect my personal "match mode" with my duty stuff, lies somewhere between this and Ben's version. The only strings where I had a time issue were on #5 where I badly botched a draw (was within the .3 though) and #9, the weak hand pickup (I made the time but it was 4.9X). My biggest deficits were the result of a bunch of close C hits at distance (strings 11, 12 and 13) that I'd called As. These accounted for 16 points and interestingly were strings where I had quite a bit of extra time to play with. Still pondering the learning points, as I'm confident "slowing down" isn't the answer.


Good drill.


t

Clobbersaurus
08-09-2015, 10:44 AM
I ran the "kiddie" version of this yesterday.

Beretta Elite II 9mm, AIWB holster over a polo shirt.

I used IPSC metric targets with overlapping 3x5 cards for the head. It isn't perfect and I don't know if this arrangement made the test harder or easier, but it's what I had, so take the score with a grain of salt. I had to guess at C and D calls and tried to call things at the lower score if it was questionable. I really need to order some proper targets instead of being cheap and making home-made cardboard......

Pic of the targets....
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03988_zpsmpzllray.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03988_zpsmpzllray.jpg.html)

Pic of the barricade at 25 yards:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03994_zpsmd4y1mc6.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03994_zpsmd4y1mc6.jpg.html)

"results":

Overall score: 239

String 1: 3.38 (over the "grace period" so called one shot as a miss)
String 2: 3.30
String 2: 3.07
String 2: 2.92
String 5: 1.86
String 6: 2.09
String 7: 1.90
String 8: 9.43
String 9: 5.22
String 10: 3.99
String 11: 3.85
String 12: 8.82 This is where I missed the first target completely. I called a funky shot when I landed my fat ass into prone and this target only had 19 rounds on it.
String 12: 17.94

I scored 36 A's, 15 C's and 7 D's.

Here are pics of the three targets after the test:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03995_zpsvvvuru0z.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03995_zpsvvvuru0z.jpg.html)
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03996_zpsct0rdcyh.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03996_zpsct0rdcyh.jpg.html)
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03997_zpshna1c9o2.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03997_zpshna1c9o2.jpg.html)

BN
08-09-2015, 05:08 PM
August 9, 2015

Gen 3 G-17 Blade-Tech. Open carry.
Kiddie version. :)
267/300.
I used IDPA targets.
I made all the times OK, but I used almost all of the grace period on the weak hand pickup string. :)
I dropped 5 of the 6 shots into the -1 zone from the 20 yard prone string. I have been pulling prone shots low for 30 years. No reason to expect anything else now. :)
Since I shoot at Fort Harmar, I have been shooting different versions of the Hackathorn Standards for over 30 years. :) Back in the day, all we shot were fixed time standards because they hadn't invented timers yet. :) Stop watch and a whistle.

Range1
08-14-2015, 01:09 PM
Equipment used: Glock 23 converted to 9mm, from open front concealment using Safariland ALS owb holster.

Version: Kiddie (do they have a baby version maybe?)

Total points: 169/300

Most of the points lost were due to not getting pistol out and on target fast enough. Secondary problem was shoving at the pistol on discharge. I did see the sights doing some “funny” things the moment the round went off several times. Again my old nemesis of lack of sufficient concentration I think.

Ranking: Needs improvement --- Ya’ think?