So GJM got me thinking about the USP...

[okie john]

In the spirit of not being totally close-minded, I'm looking at buying a 9mm USP for a few months of T&E. I'll probably shoot a few thousand rounds, maybe shoot a match or two, then sell it.

I'm looking at the standard USP, the USP Tactical, and (maybe) the USP Expert. Not terribly interested in the Compact or in calibers other than 9mm.

Thoughts?


Okie John

[Default.mp3]

Well, the Combat Competition variant of the USPs had an interesting trigger called the Hybrid LEM/Match. Suppose to be a real sweet trigger, even for an LEM. Install that on a used USP, throw on a jet funnel, and you're basically there to the Combat Competition (to complete it, you'd need some Novak fiber optic sights). Could be something to try out, if you find yourself not digging the DA/SA or standard LEM. I believe the list of parts needed for a Hybrid LEM/Match trigger can be found in this thread: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/139867-lem-match-trigger-hybrid-match-trigger-questions.html

[GJM]

Okie John, get it fixed up nice. If you go match trigger, when you are done, maybe I can buy it as a sub caliber trainer for my USP. If you go hybrid match/LEM, Darryl will buy it as a warm weather Havasu gun for when he is cruising toy shops looking for trains.

[1slow]

Training gun in both cases.

[rauchman]

Okie, very curious to hear your thoughts on the USP 9mm. I have the .45 model and am a fan. How are the magazines for the 9mm? I understand they are polymer and I've read some instances of them faililng. Is the general concensus that they are reliable?

[Kyle Reese]

I had a USP 9 that I regret parting with. It was a rock solid gun. Buy one- you won't regret it.

[Dagga Boy]

The only USP full size 9mm I would consider would be the Expert. I have shot a boatload of rounds through USP's.....45, and the only 9's were the compacts. My USP .45 Expert is a wonderous thing. I had no interest in a full size 9mm ever because it was so size inefficient to me in the caliber. With that said, a "recoiless" version of my USP Expert would be workable. You essentially get a set of sights that take advantage of the match accurate barrel, and a "match trigger" (the barrel is as accurate as anything out there....the trigger is good for an HK, not like a Colt). I always like the over travel stop.

[warpedcamshaft]

The buffer system in the USP full size makes shooting under .22 - .25 splits... "interesting" for me. The spring based buffer has a strange effect on sight tracking for me, and it may be worth a try just for the interesting experience.

I remember moving from the USP to a P30 and it felt like switching from a mid 90's Cadillac with blown out air suspension to a WRX STI. The USP is smooth, but I never felt as "sure footed" with it.

[GJM]

Training gun in both cases.

That is funny, why wasn't I clever enough to think of that.



The buffer system in the USP full size makes shooting under .22 - .25 splits... "interesting" for me. The spring based buffer has a strange effect on sight tracking for me, and it may be worth a try just for the interesting experience.

I remember moving from the USP to a P30 and it felt like switching from a mid 90's Cadillac with blown out air suspension to a WRX STI. The USP is smooth, but I never felt as "sure footed" with it.

Good info here on tracking, is the problem all USP calibers? Fast splits not a high priority for me with the .45 using Super ammo.


http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/145443-usp-expert-now-uspsa-production-legal.html

[okie john]

Okie John, get it fixed up nice. If you go match trigger, when you are done, maybe I can buy it as a sub caliber trainer for my USP. If you go hybrid match/LEM, Darryl will buy it as a warm weather Havasu gun for when he is cruising toy shops looking for trains.

I lean toward the match trigger at the moment, but parts aren’t that expensive so I may end up trying the LEM as well. I’m also thinking of adjustable sights.


Okie, very curious to hear your thoughts on the USP 9mm. I have the .45 model and am a fan. How are the magazines for the 9mm? I understand they are polymer and I've read some instances of them faililng. Is the general concensus that they are reliable?

The last time I shot a USP was when they came out twenty-odd years ago, so I don’t have an informed opinion yet. But I’ll keep you posted.


The only USP full size 9mm I would consider would be the Expert. I have shot a boatload of rounds through USP's.....45, and the only 9's were the compacts. My USP .45 Expert is a wonderous thing. I had no interest in a full size 9mm ever because it was so size inefficient to me in the caliber. With that said, a "recoiless" version of my USP Expert would be workable. You essentially get a set of sights that take advantage of the match accurate barrel, and a "match trigger" (the barrel is as accurate as anything out there....the trigger is good for an HK, not like a Colt). I always like the over travel stop.

The Expert really caught my eye, for exactly the reasons you mention. Have you heard of problems with the overtravel stop backing out and preventing the pistol from firing? The O-ring also concerns me. Do you feel like it does anything useful, or would a non-O-ring barrel shoot just as well? And are the O-rings some kind of special, Teutonic rubber or will an inexpensive COTS part do the same job in the event that the OEM part goes south on me?

Thanks,


Okie John

[Dagga Boy]

Never had an issue with the expert. I actually used mine as a tactical pistol. Literally still has the HK light on it, lanyard and is in a drop rig. Never had an issue with the over travel stop or o rings.

Funny story. During our range training week they held a club type IPSC match at the range. I was stuck working, but it was towards the end of quals and slow, so I paid the entry and entered the match. For some reason, I had to shoot unlimited open class against all the race guns and stuff with optics (I guess the light made it whiz bang). Keep in mind, "local club" with a bunch of guys who have very expensive race guns being shot by a bunch of folks with more money than practice and believers in equipment solutions. I took second place (and was VERY close to winning) in "A" open class shooting out of a thigh rig with an attached lanyard and a light on my USP Expert. It was kind of funny and shut the pie holes of many in that particular group who were big on scoffing at all the cops that "can't shoot". Their club shoots conflicted with our range fairly often. I won one of their shoots with a Glock 27 in stock class and shot the fastest plate run of anyone (including the open guys) during a plate match with a Glock 36 (it was a glorious run when all the stars aligned). This was a time when I lived on a range, really hated humanity, and really hated loud mouthed jack asses who loved to walk over and watch some of our lamer cops shoot and offer commentary as how crappy the cops were. I usually didn't pay much attention to them except when a couple of their folks would run their sucks and I would walk over and pay the entry fee and shoot whatever gun I was wearing at the time out of whatever rig I was wearing. It always helped that this was always at the end of a range week where I had been shooting as much ammo as I could burn for the previous 4 or 5 days......:cool:.

[warpedcamshaft]

Good info here on tracking, is the problem all USP calibers? Fast splits not a high priority for me with the .45 using Super ammo.
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/145443-usp-expert-now-uspsa-production-legal.html

I'm going to insert the best description I've seen about the characteristics of the USP... These are the words of Bruce Grey and really helped me to understand what was "off" about the USP for me:

True, some guns with high bore axes aren't easy to shoot, such as the HK USP series for example. These have a very high line, but that's not the real reason why they "flip like Chinese gymnasts on speed" as I once wrote.
(Sorry to seem self-reverent here.)

No, these things flip and buck inconsistently because of the ingeniously sinister recoil buffer guide rod mechanism the HK engineers built into the fullsize design to prevent frame damage and parts breakages. ALL spring loaded recoil buffers make a given pistol flip higher and return the sights less consistently.

Take the damn thig out, and the USP is a much snappier, but far more shootable pistol. And so I ran without one in Limited, and did pretty dang well. In Production, I ran the stock setup to comply with the rules, and had to work hard to keep in the A-zones at anything faster than .22 splits.

I still did well with them, however, winning a couple Area matches and placing 7th at the World Championships with a USP9F. The key was to not overshoot the guns' ability to return the sights between shots.



That said, I do love the USP... in a nasty dirty illogical way.

A few other notes that I'll share because it makes me happy to talk about the USP:

1: I had to keep my thumb off of the safety on Variant 1 USP's when shooting Strong Hand Only, as I would sometimes de-cock the gun while trying to ride the safety "1911 style."
2: USP Compacts feel different in recoil than the fullsize, I think this is due to the spring buffer (likely carried over from Mark 23) vs nylon recoil buffer. (Really, the USP fullsize was the odd duck in this regard... USP compact/P2000/P30/VP9 all use nylon buffers)
3: Sub 1 1/2 inch groups at 25 with match or defensive ammo can be expected with a good shooter.

[okie john]

Never had an issue with the expert. I actually used mine as a tactical pistol. Literally still has the HK light on it, lanyard and is in a drop rig. Never had an issue with the over travel stop or o rings.

Thanks.


No, these things flip and buck inconsistently because of the ingeniously sinister recoil buffer guide rod mechanism the HK engineers built into the fullsize design to prevent frame damage and parts breakages. ALL spring loaded recoil buffers make a given pistol flip higher and return the sights less consistently.

Take the damn thig out, and the USP is a much snappier, but far more shootable pistol.

I think I can withstand the bone-crushing recoil of the 9x19. What kind of spring setup is the way to go?


Okie John

[Dagga Boy]

The buffer is "good" and "bad". More muzzle flip when run at speed is the bad......on the other side, they handle hot ammunition very well. Federal +P HST was hard on the Glock 21's and devastating on 1911's. No issues with the HK. They are really built around shooting very hot high performance ammunition rather than as a competition pistol. Those recoil assemblies last a long time and allow for a long service life. What is important to you? This is especially important with high pressure ammunition. I am sure I have posted my two piece Glock 22 frame just due to shooting. We never saw anything like that with a USP.

[GJM]

Maybe we need a USP sub forum, and we can put this one and the field thread in it!

I am willing to give up sight tracking with the recoil system, to handle regular .45 and Super in the same pistol without a spring change. Man, that Expert in 9 looks interesting.

[john c]

Where can I get a USP expert? I don't see them on the HK USA website, but they're on the HK global site. Are they still imported?

[GJM]

Where can I get a USP expert? I don't see them on the HK USA website, but they're on the HK global site. Are they still imported?


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=493626635


Sent from my iPad

[okie john]

The buffer is "good" and "bad". More muzzle flip when run at speed is the bad......on the other side, they handle hot ammunition very well. Federal +P HST was hard on the Glock 21's and devastating on 1911's. No issues with the HK. They are really built around shooting very hot high performance ammunition rather than as a competition pistol. Those recoil assemblies last a long time and allow for a long service life. What is important to you? This is especially important with high pressure ammunition. I am sure I have posted my two piece Glock 22 frame just due to shooting. We never saw anything like that with a USP.

In this case, it will be accuracy with hot ammo, so I think you answered my questions with this post and a couple of others. Thanks.


Man, that Expert in 9 looks interesting.

Oh, yeah. That thing has "blacktails in thick brush" written all over it.


Okie John

[Sir Guy]

My agency used to issue the USP in 9x19mm back when we were on an HK kick. Well-built guns and reliable with proper maintenance (spring change intervals were an issue administratively, but not technically). I found it hard to get that front sight to return quickly compared to other guns. The triggers weren't bad but the grip is a bit blocky and, for me, the safety/decocker was in the way, even though it tried to be 1911-ish in its placement.

I think an Expert would be worth considering but the normal one isn't doing much a newer gun isn't doing as well or better.

[TheNewbie]

I don't remember the USP 9mm DA pull being all that bad, but the P2000 DA pull I tried was horrid.

However I owned neither, so that may be inaccurate.

[LtDave]

My agency was also, and still is, an HK USP user. We issued.40 full size and Compact guns in DA/SA starting about '99. Those guns are/were tanks. The only breakage I know of was one trigger guard broken over a bank robber's head. I had a Compact that shot real good with a pretty nice trigger and would have liked to have bought it when I retired, but California's insane gun laws put the kibosh on that. We transitioned from S&W 5906’s in 9mm and didn't have anyone who couldn't manage the .40 cal.

[coldcase1984]

My brother recently gave me a USP 45c I got for him after MP5 & USP Armorer School in '97. It's very accurate. Will it run Super in stock form or do I need heavier recoil spring or other parts?

I've no doubt I could topple a TN whitetail w a stout ACP load, but it's in the running to be in a chest rig when I go elk hunting in CO this fall.

[JTQ]

Does anybody prefer the USP line-up to the subsequent generations of HK pistols? I'm not arguing one way or the other, as I don't have any real experience with HK pistols as a whole. I suspect other than price there may be some feature of the USP line that may not have carried over to the newer generations that folks still prefer.

[Dagga Boy]

Does anybody prefer the USP line-up to the subsequent generations of HK pistols? I'm not arguing one way or the other, as I don't have any real experience with HK pistols as a whole. I suspect other than price there may be some feature of the USP line that may not have carried over to the newer generations that folks still prefer.

I sold a lot of USP's (and I had a crap load) when the newer guns came out. The only ones I kept were my .45 Expert, my issue SWAT gun, and my stainless that I carried as a patrol gun. Essentially, one because I love it, and two with sentimental value. I think for projects other than stuff like GJM is doing the newer guns are better and have better feel and features.

[ScotchMan]

Does anybody prefer the USP line-up to the subsequent generations of HK pistols? I'm not arguing one way or the other, as I don't have any real experience with HK pistols as a whole. I suspect other than price there may be some feature of the USP line that may not have carried over to the newer generations that folks still prefer.

The USP line has much smoother triggers in my experience. Even new production ones. The slide releases don't rattle like the new ones (minor complaint but drives some people crazy). Edit to add: the new ones have their right side slide release sometimes rattle. The USP line is not ambidextrous and so this is not an issue because there is no release to rattle on the right side of the gun.

USP Compact line is ideal to me since the magazines are the same as all the new stuff. I sold a stainless USPc .45 to fund an HK45 (newer has to be better, right?) This is my single biggest gun-related regret.

[Bergeron]

I think that with greater ambidexterity, changeable grip panels, and non-proprietary rails, I'll echo that the newer guns offer more and better features.

I appreciate the USP, I had a 9F, and it was a great experience. The smooth trigger, shape of the mag release and reach to the slide release on the USP all feel better to me than the P30, but these are not significant things. I understand that it's not uncommon to unintentionally decock a USP, but this was an experience I only had once and I find I prefer the USP decock to the P30 decock, but again, not very significant.

I wonder what a 9c with a threaded barrel and red dot would be like.

[GJM]

A full size USP in 9 feels like an awfully big pistol to launch 9mm.

[Dagga Boy]

A full size USP in 9 feels like an awfully big pistol to launch 9mm.

Agree. I was as big a USP fanboy as you could be and had no use for a full size USP in 9 or 40. With that said, I had USP9C with a sub 200 serial number. I literally was one of the first in the country to own both the compact 9 mm and compact .45's, and carried the heck out of them. I actually shot my off-duty USP45C better than my full size duty guns.

[okie john]

OK, so I was all set to try to whack a little blacktail in the brush in my favorite hunting spot using a USP 9F, but the latest Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife hunting regs say that a semi-auto pistol used for hunting deer in this area must have a bore diameter of at least .40" (10mm).

So it looks like I'm in the market for a USP in 45 instead of a 9.

And of course, about an hour before I saw the regs, I got an email saying that the USP 9 I won on Gunbroker just shipped....


Okie John

[GJM]

OK, so I was all set to try to whack a little blacktail in the brush in my favorite hunting spot using a USP 9F, but the latest Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife hunting regs say that a semi-auto pistol used for hunting deer in this area must have a bore diameter of at least .40" (10mm).

So it looks like I'm in the market for a USP in 45 instead of a 9.

And of course, about an hour before I saw the regs, I got an email saying that the USP 9 I won on Gunbroker just shipped....


Okie John

I would just email Fish & Wildlife with a link to DocGKR's sticky on service pistol cartridges. :)

[SkiDevil]

Does anybody prefer the USP line-up to the subsequent generations of HK pistols? I'm not arguing one way or the other, as I don't have any real experience with HK pistols as a whole. I suspect other than price there may be some feature of the USP line that may not have carried over to the newer generations that folks still prefer.

I have purchased the following HK pistols in the last 5 years: HK USP Compact 9, HK USP 45 (full-size), HK USP 45 C (compact), HK 45C, and P2000 SK 9mm.

My two favorites so far are the USP compact 9mm and the USP 45 Compact. The compact 9mm is one of the most accurate pistols that I have owned and is close to the P7M8 in accuracy. It shoots almost a single ragged hole at 7 yards on paper targets.

The triggers are definitely better on the USP with a shorter reset as well.

I have been shooting the HK 45C mostly the last year, but I am finding that I have a preference for the original USP 45 and USP 45 Compact over the newer models. I have shot all of the USPs except for the 9mm Expert/ Match models, and the USP 45 Match.

I have owned and shot most of the major brands of pistols over the last 20 years and there are very few which have displayed the reliability of the HKs that currently own and have owned in the past (only two which come to mind are my Gen II G17, and my 2 SIG 226 Navy NSW model 9mm pistols).

[LSP972]

The triggers are definitely better on the USP with a shorter reset as well.



The only one of your bunch that should exhibit "long" reset is the SK; the USP and HK45 pistols, both full size and compact, all use the same trigger pieces/parts, and should be pretty much the same in the reset department.

I too have long favored the HK45C; been shooting and carrying one for the past five years. However, recently I have been spending a lot of time with my old USPc 9mm and .40 S&W pistols, and the shorter trigger reach/more aggressively textured grip on those pistols has reminded me that the big bullet ain't everything… there are other factors to consider as well.

The HK45C grip is actually a bit on the slick side; I had one stippled, and it made a drastic improvement in the "feel" and controllability. Of course, it also compromised the gun's ability to drop magazines freely, but that's another story… one I'm working through slowly to resolvement.

.

[Dagga Boy]

Short of "Donder and Blitzen" my first two HK45C's that I needed to be DA/SA with safety's (they have Ambi controls), all my "newer" HK's are all light or TLG LEM's. All my USP's are DA/SA. I have come to the conclusion that I like the LEM in the new guns and the DA/SA in the older ones.

[Dagga Boy]

OK, so I was all set to try to whack a little blacktail in the brush in my favorite hunting spot using a USP 9F, but the latest Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife hunting regs say that a semi-auto pistol used for hunting deer in this area must have a bore diameter of at least .40" (10mm).

So it looks like I'm in the market for a USP in 45 instead of a 9.



And of course, about an hour before I saw the regs, I got an email saying that the USP 9 I won on Gunbroker just shipped....


Okie John

I think if you check with Wayne Dobbs, HST drops deer very efficiently in both 9 and .45.

[Drang]

I think if you check with Wayne Dobbs, HST drops deer very efficiently in both 9 and .45.
Don't tell us, tell Olympia.

And good luck.

[Dr. No]

I shot 80% of the winner at the 2013 Nationals with a full size USP 40. Only thing I modded was the mags (STI's), match trigger, and Dawson sights. Not GM by any means, but you can run these beasts and they are reliable...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQl4rH0QuAs

[DEG]

Nice shooting! Watching that USP run makes me feel sorry for my Gen4 17's ejectile dysfunction [emoji3]

[GJM]

I shot 80% of the winner at the 2013 Nationals with a full size USP 40. Only thing I modded was the mags (STI's), match trigger, and Dawson sights. Not GM by any means, but you can run these beasts and they are reliable...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQl4rH0QuAs

If it wasn't for USPSA and gaming, would you prefer .40 or .45 in the USP?

[RAM Engineer]

Only thing I modded was the mags (STI's), match trigger...

STI? Huh?

[warpedcamshaft]

STI? Huh?

Yeah... I believe the STI mag modification was a Bruce Grey mod/wizardry... you could actually run STI 140 magazines in a USP.

[JodyH]

GJM and H&K's...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

LOL

[SLG]

Yeah... I believe the STI mag modification was a Bruce Grey mod/wizardry... you could actually run STI 140 magazines in a USP.

So you (he, whoever) takes a duty reliable gun and turn it into a finicky half race gun...

[warpedcamshaft]

My understanding was with the quantity of shooting they were doing with the hk translucent extended magazines, they were having long term friction issues with the followers in the poly body and possibly some binding.

That was also in a high round competition environment and the dude was/is a legit competition shooter and respected gunsmith. If you don't know who he is, he's worth a couple google searches to see some of his work. Pretty cool stuff.

[SLG]

My understanding was with the quantity of shooting they were doing with the hk translucent extended magazines, they were having long term friction issues with the followers in the poly body and possibly some binding.

That was also in a high round competition environment and the dude was/is a legit competition shooter and respected gunsmith. If you don't know who he is, he's worth a couple google searches to see some of his work. Pretty cool stuff.

After re-reading my post, it might have come off snarkier than intended. I intended only a small amount of snarkiness...

As for Bruce Grey, I know who he is.

[HCM]

The polymer magazines of the original 9/40 USP were a weak point. There's a reason HK abandoned them for metal mags from the USPC/USP 45 forward. Assuming they only modified the cheaper part, the magazine adapting a metal mag sounds like a great idea.

[warpedcamshaft]

After re-reading my post, it might have come off snarkier than intended. I intended only a small amount of snarkiness...

As for Bruce Grey, I know who he is.

All good, hard to read tone on the 'net... didn't intend to sound dickish either and didn't see your username on my tiny cell phone screen when I replied to the comment.

[Dr. No]

If it wasn't for USPSA and gaming, would you prefer .40 or .45 in the USP?

I carried a USP45 on duty for the first 4 years. I switched to 40 and went to competing with it at the same time. I liked the 40 better. I could get a better handle on the gun, the recoil didn't 'roll' as much as it did "snap". I liked the magwell on it and the form factor was a little easier to conceal after hours.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably go USP9F with the jet funnel.

[Dr. No]

So you (he, whoever) takes a duty reliable gun and turn it into a finicky half race gun...

Best I could do with half ass modified arredondo basepads was get 18 in a mag. With the STI's I could get 21 and one in the chamber, which let me run (capacity wise) with the big boys. In USPSA it was worth it, as most arrays are 8 or 10 rounds.

I didn't find that the mags made the gun finicky. STI mags definitely require a little more cleaning than a normal mag and you have to be on top of springs. So long as I did that the gun ran pretty well.

The nice part about it was there was only a slight mod to the underside of the slide, all the rest of the mods were on the mags themselves. Overall a pretty slick setup. I may sell it one of these days, but I think people are going to get some sticker shock when I do. :)

[Dr. No]

My understanding was with the quantity of shooting they were doing with the hk translucent extended magazines, they were having long term friction issues with the followers in the poly body and possibly some binding.


I never had problems with the followers. My problem was loading the mags full and then putting base pads on them that the feed lips couldn't handle the stress of all the spring pressure. The lips would begin to spread and then ammo wouldn't feed at the right angle causing malfunctions. Sometimes the mag body would swell and not allow the mags to drop free.

Also, on the unmodified mags - the metal base pads would routinely rip off the plastic lips on the bottom when dropped on a concrete range. I had a pile of mag bodies I went through.

[LSP972]

Also, on the unmodified mags - the metal base pads would routinely rip off the plastic lips on the bottom when dropped on a concrete range.

^Ditto on "hard" dirt, but especially on concrete; particularly if there were any rounds remaining, adding to the weight of the mag, etc.

I had a 9mm Combat Competition w/Light "match" LEM that I played with for a while. The trigger was fabulous, and the fiber optic front sight was amazing in strong ambient light; but those magazines were on the fragile side.

That pistol was one of the very few HKs I've traded away after acquiring it.

.

[Dagga Boy]

Of course....HK now does a mega reliable magazine for the P30/VP9 and all I hear is...."it only holds 15 rounds"...."why didn't they do a polymer high capacity magazine like Glock"....:mad:

[LSP972]

While it probably would not have addressed the lip-spreading problem described earlier (I never saw that, probably because I didn't keep it long enough), I think a polymer baseplate would have eliminated the other issue. Too late now, but one can wonder…

While I understand it from a competitor's, or warrior-in-a-combat-zone, perspective, I think the whole 15-isn't-enough issue in regards to a private citizen or LE environment is mildly retarded. I'll admit to carrying a G17 mag with +2 extender as a spare when toting a G19, but only because I CAN; and the longer stick is more comfortable than a 15 round G19 mag, because the shorter one digs into my love handles a bit. I'm going through this again with a spare P30 mag for the USPc; it is shorter than the 10 rounder for the HK45C or the extended G17 magazine and causes a bit of discomfort when I sit a certain way.

I visited my kydex guy last Friday, and he's making me a pouch that sits higher to address this. When he's done, I'll be able to carry a 13 round .40 P30 mag as a spare for the USPc in kingly comfort.

Good heavens… only 13 spare rounds. I'm doomed…

.

[GJM]

Were the regular USP 9 and 40 polymer mags considered fragile, or just some flavor/configuration like the translucent ones?

[RAM Engineer]

I'm going through this again with a spare P30 mag for the USPc; it is shorter than the 10 rounder for the HK45C or the extended G17 magazine and causes a bit of discomfort when I sit a certain way.

I visited my kydex guy last Friday, and he's making me a pouch that sits higher to address this. When he's done, I'll be able to carry a 13 round .40 P30 mag as a spare for the USPc in kingly comfort.

Good heavens… only 13 spare rounds. I'm doomed…

How about a Taylor Freelance extension? Longer for comfort and a few more rounds. I intend to try that out on my USPc 9mm soon.

[LSP972]

Were the regular USP 9 and 40 polymer mags considered fragile, or just some flavor/configuration like the translucent ones?

From everything I have been told/read, just the "white" extended-cap magazines. I never used the standard-capacity USP polymer mags, so I can't say for sure.

However; I have a friend who loaded up on po-po trade-in USPf 9mms back when they were $400 a pop. He's got like, a dozen or so of them. About half of them get shot, but one in particular he uses for classes (at least two per year- the guy is a training whore of epic proportions). That gun gets fed nothing but steel-cased Euro-trash ball, and he pays even less attention to its hygiene than he does his other guns. If he remembers to, he'll oil it a bit before a class, but he cleans it about as much as Hillary attends NRA gatherings.

But we're talking magazines… I've been to several classes with him, on a range that has new, "sharp" (unfinished) concrete out to the seven yard line. His plastic USPf magazines, from what I've observed, handle that abuse as well as Glock mags. IOW, they take the beating in stride and don't look too much the worse for wear. Never heard him complain about them in any manner.

FWIW…


.

[LSP972]

How about a Taylor Freelance extension? Longer for comfort and a few more rounds. I intend to try that out on my USPc 9mm soon.

I'm aware of them, but never really thought about it; I guess because, its too easy to take an elitist mindset with HK… IOW, after-market stuff is for Glocks, et. al. because they need it, etc. Dumb, I know, but what can I say?

I just looked at their site… definitely interesting. Thanks for the reminder.

.

[okie john]

Off to coonfinger a standard USP on a local rental range. Any thoughts on the differences between the Tactical and the Expert?

Expert
Slightly longer barrel and sight radius
O-ring barrel
Hand fitted (?) slide/barrel
Adjustable black/black sights
Match trigger

Tactical
will take a can
O-ring barrel
Adjustable night sights
Match trigger

Neither will probably work in a standard holster, so that's a wash...

What am I missing?


Okie John

[Dr. No]

From everything I have been told/read, just the "white" extended-cap magazines. I never used the standard-capacity USP polymer mags, so I can't say for sure.
.

It was only the white plastic ones. The issue was a hard metal base pad on plastic body lips. The plastic would always give and the metal wouldn't.

The plastic on plastic mags never had the basepad issue.

[GJM]

From what I have read, the Expert is a limited run, that happens to be available now, where the Tactical is a regular offering. Looks like this run of Experts doesn't have the jet funnel.

[okie john]

From what I have read, the Expert is a limited run, that happens to be available now, where the Tactical is a regular offering. Looks like this run of Experts doesn't have the jet funnel.

Thanks. Not sure I need a Jet Funnel, besides, this thing is kind of a horse as it is—no need to make it bigger.

Just got back from the range and my first time shooting an HK USP 45. The one I shot was a typically dirty, unlubricated range rental, but it shot well and recoil was mild. I compared it to a Gen4 G17 and a lightly tuned Mark IV Series 70 Colt that I’ve had for 20+ years. Fiocchi 230-grain ball grouped slightly better in the HK than in the Colt, despite the HK having slightly worse trigger and sights. A decent handload should cut group sizes somewhat.

I also made a five-shot control group with a Gen4 G17 with Federal 9MS. All shooting was slow-fire, offhand at 25 yards.

The Glock made a five-shot group that was 3.5" in diameter, which is about standard for this load in this pistol.
The HK and the Colt both made five-shot groups that were 3.5" in diameter.
The HK made a ten-shot group that was 4.00" in diameter, with eight shots in 2.25". I called both flyers.
The Colt made a ten-shot group that was 5.50", with eight shots in 3.50". Again, I called the flyers.


Other notes:

Range light was bright on the sights with the target in shadow, and the kid next to me dumping mags with the M-4 was distracting.
The HK is big but manageable. Probably tough to conceal in hot-weather clothing, but even with my medium-sized hands, I should have no problem running it fast after a solid train-up. I can reach the mag catch with my trigger finger. There are acres of polymer between the mag catch and my thumb, so absolutely no chance of inadvertently dropping a mag that way.
This pistol was a Variant One (TDA with safety and decocker). Safety manipulation was smoother than expected given the size of the grip. I’ve got decades on the 1911, and the USP safety was close enough that I found myself automatically flicking it on (without decocking) every time I brought the gun down off the target, and flicking it off just before the sights aligned, like I do with a 1911. A definite plus.
Dirt made the HK’s sights gray and hard to see. The 1911 sight picture was slightly superior because the front sight was black.
The trigger pull was longer than the 1911 and had that plastic feel, but was not much—if any—heavier. Putting a match trigger in this thing will be a big step up. I could have the Colt's trigger tweaked, but the HK match trigger costs $125, or about what a decent 1911 plumber charges to pick up the phone.


Off to GunBroker, I guess, then time for 50-yard tests.


Okie John

[jc000]

Well, the Combat Competition variant of the USPs had an interesting trigger called the Hybrid LEM/Match. Suppose to be a real sweet trigger, even for an LEM. Install that on a used USP, throw on a jet funnel, and you're basically there to the Combat Competition (to complete it, you'd need some Novak fiber optic sights). Could be something to try out, if you find yourself not digging the DA/SA or standard LEM. I believe the list of parts needed for a Hybrid LEM/Match trigger can be found in this thread: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/139867-lem-match-trigger-hybrid-match-trigger-questions.html

This is pretty interesting. I carry a P2000 (9mm), but I'm looking at getting into some IPSC and I'm pretty sure that eventually that pistol will hold me back some. I guess the Match LEM trigger would work in a USPc? If only I could get the Jet Funnel to work on the USPc as well!

[BCL]

This is pretty interesting. I carry a P2000 (9mm), but I'm looking at getting into some IPSC and I'm pretty sure that eventually that pistol will hold me back some. I guess the Match LEM trigger would work in a USPc? If only I could get the Jet Funnel to work on the USPc as well!

You won't be able to install the factory match trigger with the overtravel stop in the USPc, but you could get someone to drill and tap your current trigger to achieve the same result (which may not be legal in IPSC/USPSA depending on division). All of the other parts should work. I've had both the DA/SA Match trigger and Hybrid Match/LEM in a USP9F. I prefer the DA/SA Match trigger, but that is more about not liking LEM than anything else. With the standard hammer spring and heavy TRS installed, the trigger broke at about 4.5-5lbs.

[GJM]

So, if someone was going to buy a USP sub caliber trainer for their USP .45 (Super), would they get 9 or 40, and why?

[SteveB]

So, if someone was going to buy a USP sub caliber trainer for their USP .45 (Super), would they get 9 or 40, and why?

I'd be inclined to shoot .45 ACP instead of Super and call it a day.

[LSP972]

I'd be inclined to shoot .45 ACP instead of Super and call it a day.

Me, too... but I reload.

For a non-reloader (and I'm assuming GJM does not roll his own), the choice between 9mm and .40 is a toss-up. GJM is an experienced shooter, relatively young and in good condition. IOW, .40 recoil isn't going to bother him over an extended shooting session as much as it might others (me, for instance). And when the next "panic" hits, the first things to disappear will be 9mm and .22 ammunition. Even today, I notice a plethora of .40 S&W ammunition on shelves, where 9mm is still hit or miss. Folks down here buy lots of burrets.

No need to go into the benefits of 9mm as a sub-caliber trainer.

There are very few things starkly black and white in this game. This specific question, like most topics involving guns and our interaction with them, is more of a "Which shade of gray do you lean toward??" kind of thing.

.

[JHC]

The .40 could be a back up field pistol also as it probably will run the heavy cast penetrators well right? OTOH I have not idea how the HK barrels work with hard cast.

[LSP972]

OTOH I have not idea how the HK barrels work with hard cast.

They work fine with lead bullets, as long as the usual caveats regarding shooting cast lead in a polygonal bore are observed.

.

[GJM]

The reason I would consider another in 9/40 is once I get serious pistols set-up, and verified reliable, I tend to shoot them very sparingly.

The most common ammo I have is 9, followed by .40. Right now, I am out of shooter .45. Perhaps I could have asked it better, but my question is whether there is something about a full size USP that makes it better in 9 or .40?

[LSP972]

Better than what?

It (the USPf .45) is simply a slightly scaled-up USP, with metal magazines. Bigger grip, longer trigger reach, etc.

I find all of the USP full size pistols a bit too large for my hand, the .45 especially.

.

[GJM]

Better than what?

It (the USPf .45) is simply a slightly scaled-up USP, with metal magazines. Bigger grip, longer trigger reach, etc.

I find all of the USP full size pistols a bit too large for my hand, the .45 especially.

.

Historically, if someone wanted a Glock full size I would say 9, M&P I Would say .40, and CZ 9. My question is whether the USP, which is the same size in 9 and 40, is regarded as better in either caliber?

[Dr. No]

The USP was initially designed in 9mm. I personally like the form factor of the 9/40 pistols better than the 45. The 45 just had a lot more mass to contend with, which made it move around a lot. I think the 9mm USP would be the easiest to control and easy to fix up. I think you should just get the caliber that will meet your terminal needs. Otherwise if you want to keep your inventory simple, get the 9mm.

[okie john]

Historically, if someone wanted a Glock full size I would say 9, M&P I Would say .40, and CZ 9. My question is whether the USP, which is the same size in 9 and 40, is regarded as better in either caliber?

I don't have enough experience with them to recommend one over the other. But USPs are cheap enough that you could get one or two in each caliber to cover potential ammo issues down the line.


Okie John

[rauchman]

The USP was initially designed in 9mm. I personally like the form factor of the 9/40 pistols better than the 45. The 45 just had a lot more mass to contend with, which made it move around a lot. I think the 9mm USP would be the easiest to control and easy to fix up. I think you should just get the caliber that will meet your terminal needs. Otherwise if you want to keep your inventory simple, get the 9mm.

I thought I remembered reading from when the USP was first released (1991?), it was one of the 1st pistols designed at the outset to handle .40. Could be wrong.

[GJM]

I don't have enough experience with them to recommend one over the other. But USPs are cheap enough that you could get one or two in each caliber to cover potential ammo issues down the line.


Okie John

Like the way you think!

[ReverendMeat]

I thought I remembered reading from when the USP was first released (1991?), it was one of the 1st pistols designed at the outset to handle .40. Could be wrong.

Well according to Wikipedia you're right, at least. .40 first was my belief as well

[okie john]

Like the way you think!

They're not much more expensive than Glocks. I could see myself with a brace of them in each caliber.


Okie John

[LSP972]

I thought I remembered reading from when the USP was first released (1991?), it was one of the 1st pistols designed at the outset to handle .40. Could be wrong.

According to Kersten & Schmid, the USP was spawned from the U.S. military request for what became the Mark 23 SOCOM pistol. It was made in .40 S&W first; page 113 of their book.

.

[Lyonsgrid]

I see HK has produced the USP compacts (9X19) in stainless again (limited run).
This thread is not good for me, especially since my local gun shop just got a new one in stock...

[LSP972]

If you're into two-tone pistols, that's just the ticket.

I guess the new has worn off your Wilson Brig-Tac?;)

.

[Dr. No]

I stand corrected!

[GJM]

I have been mulling over Okie John's advice, and following some of his questions on other forums. Sounds like his USP 9 is shooting high.

I am tempted to get a stock USP FS .40, and a 9 Tactical. 9 Tactical because it now has (I believe) a match trigger and adjustable sight, but still allowing me to probably use USP holsters with the threaded barrel protruding slightly.

[coldcase1984]

GJM, my search skills are weak. Could you please post a link to threads referenced about probs w G20/29s being less than reliable w heavy loads?

We've got a G29 that's run fine thus far w Double Tap 200 gr. WFNL.

[GJM]

GJM, my search skills are weak. Could you please post a link to threads referenced about probs w G20/29s being less than reliable w heavy loads?

We've got a G29 that's run fine thus far w Double Tap 200 gr. WFNL.

Embedded in multiple threads over the last three years or so, as I have encountered the problems. My wife and I are running XTP or Trophy Bonded ammo in our 20/29 pistols, and have found them to run reliably. Ammo we have had issues with, is Corbon, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap and Underwood 200 grain penetrator loads. That is across a sample of a half dozen 20 and a half dozen 29 pistols. I think SLG was just discussing this with DT, and they made a recommendation for a load with less of a meplat for better functioning.

Is your DT load FMJ or hard cast, and how many rounds have you shot?

[BCL]

I am tempted to get a stock USP FS .40, and a 9 Tactical. 9 Tactical because it now has (I believe) a match trigger and adjustable sight, but still allowing me to probably use USP holsters with the threaded barrel protruding slightly.

The 9 tactical has the match trigger, the 9-SD does not. It's a new-for-2016 model if I remember correctly.

I wasn't a fan of the adjustable sights since they were all black and there was no light between the front blade and rear notch.

The adjustable sights were, however, excellent for group shooting.

[GJM]

The 9 tactical has the match trigger, the 9-SD does not. It's a new-for-2016 model if I remember correctly.

I wasn't a fan of the adjustable sights since they were all black and there was no light between the front blade and rear notch.

The adjustable sights were, however, excellent for group shooting.

The listing I am looking at says "adjustable night sights," -- any thought as to what they mean?

[BCL]

It could be the meprolight adjustable night sights. Other than that I have no idea.

I have an SD though, not the tactical, so maybe it is a new feature.

[GJM]

I got this:

http://www.topgunsupply.com/h-k-usp-tactical-9mm-da-sa-adjustable-night-sights-3-mags.html

Think they are the Metro adjustable night sights.

[BCL]

I got this:

http://www.topgunsupply.com/h-k-usp-tactical-9mm-da-sa-adjustable-night-sights-3-mags.html

Think they are the Metro adjustable night sights.

It has the same model number as the one on Cross Creek Guns' website: http://www.crosscreekguns.com/usp.html (New Model* USP-T 9mm full size #M709001TLE-A5, V1 safety/decocker, threaded barrel w/thread protector & O-ring, match grade trigger with adjustable trigger stop, factory Meprolight adjustable night sights, 3-15 rd magazines. USP Tactical on slide)

I haven't used the tritium version, although they are probably better than the black adjustable sights from the factory.

[okie john]

I have been mulling over Okie John's advice, and following some of his questions on other forums. Sounds like his USP 9 is shooting high.

Yeah, so I owe you guys an update. A few days ago, I got a full-sized 9mm USP on Gunbroker. It's bone stock, aside from some holster wear, a few dings on the sights, and the innards being full of some redneck's belly-button lint. I hosed it out, lubed it with CLP, and took it to the range yesterday to test loads.

Shooting offhand slow-fire at 25 yards, two loads shot under 3.00” and three were right at 3.50” with flyers that I called. Nothing noteworthy happened at 50 yards because I’m not used to the trigger yet, which makes sense–when I had a P30LS last summer, it took three months to learn the trigger and find the right ammo, but it made 6” groups at 50 yards, so the effort was worth it.

I had read things online about the USP hitting low at 25 yards with factory sights, but mine averaged about 3” over POA at 25 yards and even higher at 50 yards, so I need to find other sights or loads that hit closer to POA--a fast 124-grain should do it.

I took it to the range again today to test loads and work on trigger control at 25 yards. Almost every group had four hits in a neat little two-inch cluster, plus one flyer that opened the group to around four inches. Clearly this gun will shoot well if I ever learn not to abuse the trigger. POIs were about like yesterday. Right before I left, I shot five rounds decocking after each shot, and got a group just under two inches with POI about an inch high. Then I fired five more, which opened the group to about three inches but put three in the X ring. Then I did it again on a fresh target and got the same results.

I was thinking about putting a match trigger in this pistol, but maybe I need to go DAO or match LEM instead. Yesterday I kept my thumb on the safety like a good 1911 shooter, but I think that's not helping, so today I kept it off. In any case, DAO or LEM would remove that factor from the equation.


I am tempted to get a stock USP FS .40, and a 9 Tactical. 9 Tactical because it now has (I believe) a match trigger and adjustable sight, but still allowing me to probably use USP holsters with the threaded barrel protruding slightly.

I was thinking that, too. But I’m not running a can, so I’m thinking about just adding adjustable sights and the match trigger to the gun I have. Accuracy is clearly there, and the numbers pencil out pretty well against the Tactical if I buy the parts from HKPro. Having the muzzle stick out of the holster is a minus for me for anything other than being on a range, as the pistol can get pushed up out of the holster when I sit down then fall out when I stand up. Long ago, I had a Sparks Yaqui Slide for a P-35 that used to do that. It never fell out, but it got loose a couple of times and I was always nervous that I’d drop it.


The listing I am looking at says "adjustable night sights," -- any thought as to what they mean?

Pretty sure they’re adjustable Meprolights. I have a set on my former EDC Glock. They’re sturdy and reliable. I doubt HK would have used them otherwise.


Okie John

[Malamute]

Slight side track,...is $675 a decent price for an H-K USP compact 45 with 5 mags? It looks pretty clean other than a bit of scratching on one side of the slide by the slide release. No thumb safety. Hole is filled with factory looking black hole filler thing. After market night sights. Mags were numbered.

Its not in my budget, but I'll pass along the info/location if anyone is interested.

[okie john]

Slight side track,...is $675 a decent price for an H-K USP compact 45 with 5 mags? It looks pretty clean other than a bit of scratching on one side of the slide by the slide release. No thumb safety. Hole is filled with factory looking black hole filler thing. After market night sights. Mags were numbered.

Its not in my budget, but I'll pass along the info/location if anyone is interested.

It's not bad.

The problem with the 45s is the cost of magazines. As near as I can tell, OEM mags are north of $60 each, so that has to enter into price calculations. At least one other company made mags for the full-sized guns, so you need to make sure you know what kind of mags you're getting. Not sure if anyone other than HK made mags for the compacts. And unfortunately, you can't use full-sized mags in compact pistols.


Okie John

[Malamute]

It's not bad.

The problem with the 45s is the cost of magazines. As near as I can tell, OEM mags are north of $60 each, so that has to enter into price calculations. At least one other company made mags for the full-sized guns, so you need to make sure you know what kind of mags you're getting. Not sure if anyone other than HK made mags for the compacts. And unfortunately, you can't use full-sized mags in compact pistols.


Okie John

I asked if the mags were factory, he got them out and looked and said they were. I didnt look at every one, I was looking at the gun at the moment. There was some sort of IWB kydex holster with it, I didnt see a makers mark, and I'm not all that familiar with whats available. As a guess, its not a mass market holster.

[LSP972]

And unfortunately, you can't use full-sized mags in compact pistols.


Okie John

You cannot use USPf .45 magazines in the compacts.

The full size HK45 ten rounders work great in both the USP Compact .45 and the HK45 Compact.

You're right; HK .45 mags, of all flavors, are priced in the stratosphere. I have no idea why they are, and the initial acquisition is indeed somewhat painful. But what's that old saying? "The quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten", or something like that?

.

[okie john]

Picked up a used HK USP 45 yesterday. It came with two 10-shot mags, a standard trigger, and dead night sights. On the range today it put five rounds of two different practice-type 230-gr. ball loads into about 4” 25 yards, so nothing spectacular there. A 230-grain cast handload did much better, putting 10 rounds into just over 3” at 25 yards, with eight of those in just over two inches.

50-yard groups with both jacketed loads were unimpressive. The cast load shot better, putting five rounds into eight inches, but the group was only three inches wide.

POI was 2.50” to 3.00” low at 25 yards and about a foot low at 50, so I need to either find a load that hits higher or get different sights.

I feel like this pistol’s accuracy potential is high, and that the vertical stringing is me abusing the trigger. This pistol definitely rates trigger and sight upgrades.

Let me know if you have questions.


Okie John

[1slow]

Try Bud's for mags, MK23 will work in full size USP45 but not the reverse. I think they (MK23 mags) are $47 at Bud's.

[GJM]

Okie John, given your interests, you might be a good candidate for adjustable sights. Think there is a factory and Metro option.

[okie john]

Okie John, given your interests, you might be a good candidate for adjustable sights. Think there is a factory and Metro option.

I agree 100%. Only one of my serious pistols does not have adjustable sights, and that's because it has Novaks welded to the slide. I was a little hesitant to carry a pistol with adjustable sights at first, but I quit worrying about it after I read that Pat McNamara used them on his work guns. Even toyed with the idea of putting them on a G26. The idea of adjustable sights on a carry gun makes some people foam at the mouth, but when I was a kid most cops and highway patrolmen in Oklahoma carried S&W revolvers with adjustable sights and considered them an upgrade from fixed sights.

I was pretty sure that the USP would be more accurate than my Wilson barreled G17's, but I wanted to confirm that before I put a lot of coin into upgrades. I'll shoot this one a little more before I replace the sights, but at this point it looks like that will happen.


Okie John