Cross-dominance and the RSS Basic Handgun course (split form the LAV/AIWB thread)

[Wondering Beard]

[split from the LAV bans AIWB for his courses (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16385) thread]


at the foundational level Bill Rogers disallows cross dominance.

I'm not sure what that means.

Could you elaborate?

[SouthNarc]

I'm not sure what that means.

Could you elaborate?

Sure! If you're left eye dominant but right handed, Bill will make you shoot left handed in the Basic course.

[scw2]

Sure! If you're left eye dominant but right handed, Bill will make you shoot left handed in the Basic course.

This may be a dumb question, but what is the benefit for a brand new shooter to learn that way?

[Wondering Beard]

Sure! If you're left eye dominant but right handed, Bill will make you shoot left handed in the Basic course.

Does he do that with shooters who aren't novices but have never taken any of his classes?



This may be a dumb question, but what is the benefit for a brand new shooter to learn that way?

I'm curious too.

[GJM]

This may be a dumb question, but what is the benefit for a brand new shooter to learn that way?

Probably better for another time, another thread, but at the Rogers School there are Bill rules. One, is that since he believes a shooter will long term be better off to have their shooting hand and dominant eye aligned, in the Basic class, shooters will match eye and hand. In the Advanced/Intermediate class, Bill believes there is not time to change, and you run as you came.

After a lot of discussion, I believe there is no one right answer for all shooters. The answer varies by how dominant in an eye and/or hand you are, how much experience you already have, and other factors. There are examples of very talented shooters doing it opposite -- Enos, Leatham and Sevigny for example all solving this problem differently.

[JHC]

There are examples of very talented shooters doing it opposite -- Enos, Leatham and Sevigny for example all solving this problem differently.

I suspect that is a clue regarding cross eye dominant shooting.

[LSP972]

Sure! If you're left eye dominant but right handed, Bill will make you shoot left handed in the Basic course.

Off topic, but... having trained many, many cross-eye-dominant folks successfully, I really have trouble digesting the logic behind this.

Unless the student is fully ambidextrous (and most are definitely not) this practice seems... well, I'll forego the first adjective that comes to mind.

.

[SouthNarc]

Off topic, but... having trained many, many cross-eye-dominant folks successfully, I really have trouble digesting the logic behind this.

Unless the student is fully ambidextrous (and most are definitely not) this practice seems... well, I'll forego the first adjective that comes to mind.

.

Just so it's clear I don't agree with this practice either. That being said Bill's been at this a long time and I don't discount his observations even if they conflict with my own.

[GJM]

Rob Leatham was born right eye dominant and left handed. He switched to shoot right hand, and seems to be doing fine with this method.

Dave Sevigny was born right handed and left eye dominant, and pushes the pistol under his left eye, with good success.

Brian Enos is also cross dominant, but shoots using his non dominant eye as primary, with good success.

I have a friend who came to Rogers Int/Adv and shot cross dominant, pushing the gun across under his dominant eye. He then trained a year, switching gun hand to match his dominant eye. Came back to Rogers, and, go figure, his scores were exactly the same.

I am convinced there is no settled science on this.

[JHC]

Rob Leatham was born right eye dominant and left handed. He switched to shoot right hand, and seems to be doing fine with this method.

Dave Sevigny was born right handed and left eye dominant, and pushes the pistol under his left eye, with good success.

Brian Enos is also cross dominant, but shoots using his non dominant eye as primary, with good success.

I have a friend who came to Rogers Int/Adv and shot cross dominant, pushing the gun across under his dominant eye. He then trained a year, switching gun hand to match his dominant eye. Came back to Rogers, and, go figure, his scores were exactly the same.

I am convinced there is no settled science on this.

My younger son was lefty for all things as he grew up. His left eye was dominant also. As a young adult his left handed pistol shooting sucked and stayed sucked. For the helluvit one day I told him to try his right hand it sucked a LOT less. That's where he has stayed. After a couple days with Proctor he was shooting pretty decent.

Also as a righty shooter, using his more dextrous dominant left hand to go for the spare mag; his reloads were fast and incredibly sure and smooth from the first repetition of a speed reload. I was stunned.

[LSP972]

I am convinced there is no settled science on this.

There cannot be, because we're all different. I have little doubt that most folks, given enough time and repetitions, could learn to shoot as well from their non-dominant side... as evidenced by your friend.

But given the time limitations in your basic class (even a week-long one), and the fact that those same most folks are NOT going to religiously continue to hone those off-side skills once they leave... well, looks to me like a collossal recipe for disaster.

Just sayin'...

.

[GJM]

There cannot be, because we're all different. I have little doubt that most folks, given enough time and repetitions, could learn to shoot as well from their non-dominant side... as evidenced by your friend.

But given the time limitations in your basic class (even a week-long one), and the fact that those same most folks are NOT going to religiously continue to hone those off-side skills once they leave... well, looks to me like a collossal recipe for disaster.

Just sayin'...

.

Some considerations are how strongly eye dominant you are, how strongly hand dominant you are, whether a switch will make you shoot right handed (right handed world out there), will you shoot long gun, how serious you are about shooting as a long term pursuit, how much prior experience/repetitions you have another way, and more I have forgotten.

No solution is ideal, and if you had a check list you certainly wouldn't pick cross dominant for your kid.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think the dominance issue is one that could be handled with well designed human factors studies. There are quantifiable tests for hand and eye dominance. Shooters of various training levels could be tested on standardized trials. Might be a thing the armed forces would be set up to do. I hold this opinion based on a PhD in cognitive psychology and a post doc in sensory neurophysiology plus suffering through many gun classes :) .

I think expert opinions from the field can inform the set up of a real test.

[JustOneGun]

Some considerations are how strongly eye dominant you are, how strongly hand dominant you are, whether a switch will make you shoot right handed (right handed world out there), will you shoot long gun, how serious you are about shooting as a long term pursuit, how much prior experience/repetitions you have another way, and more I have forgotten.

No solution is ideal, and if you had a check list you certainly wouldn't pick cross dominant for your kid.

While we hesitate to say never, I think teaching someone to shoot cross dominate is far easier than turning a right handed person into a lefty or left to right in almost all cases. I did take a year to learn to shoot left handed. It made me a better instructor and on paper I scored the same on the qual with either hand. On a timer and in Force on Force, not so much. I wouldn't want to get into a shoot out as a lefty. Having done it I just can't fathom why someone would, on a regular basis, have people do it.

Perhaps he was just having people try it and not advocating they keep doing it?

[uechibear]

I can find no mention of his policies about cross-dominance on his website.

I would be very unhappy to show up for training and find out that I couldn't shoot as I normally do. The Basic class is not required for all. Instead, this (from his website) seems to be where he draws the line:


To qualify to take the Intermediate course a student must already possess the skill to be able to draw a center fire handgun from a concealed carry position or a duty type holster and reliably hit a man sized target at 10 yards in less than 2 seconds.

So I guess I wouldn't need to be concerned, but I wonder if he tests everyone to the above standard prior to conducting the training. Does he do an eye dominance test on everyone first? Can he tell which eye someone is putting the sights in front of by watching from the side?

His house, his rules, but I'm curious how this works in actual practice.

[Mr_White]

I can find no mention of his policies about cross-dominance on his website.

I would be very unhappy to show up for training and find out that I couldn't shoot as I normally do. The Basic class is not required for all. Instead, this (from his website) seems to be where he draws the line:



So I guess I wouldn't need to be concerned, but I wonder if he tests everyone to the above standard prior to conducting the training. Does he do an eye dominance test on everyone first? Can he tell which eye someone is putting the sights in front of by watching from the side?

His house, his rules, but I'm curious how this works in actual practice.

When I took the Intermediate/Advanced class, there was no test to see if we could meet the stated prerequisite skill level walking into the class. I think people who are too far behind would just have a very hard time keeping up.

A shooter's eye dominance can often be observed by another person from the outside. I may have to see them from the sides or a little over the top, but I can usually tell.

In actual practice, I think it's mostly a non-issue. I understand that the insistence to shoot with the same-side eye and hand to ONLY be in the basic class. There was no attempt made that I knew of in the Intermediate/Advanced class to either identify cross dominant shooters or persuade them to switch. I think the only time it's going to be a problem is if an established shooter who wants to shoot with their naturally cross dominant eye and hand shows up to the Basic class.

Sorry for the drift, but I felt like I could speak to a few of uechibear's questions.

[nycnoob]

I would be very unhappy to show up for training and find out that I couldn't shoot as I normally do.

[. . . . ]

So I guess I wouldn't need to be concerned, but I wonder if he tests everyone to the above standard prior to conducting the training. Does he do an eye dominance test on everyone first? Can he tell which eye someone is putting the sights in front of by watching from the side?

His house, his rules, but I'm curious how this works in actual practice.

I have had the basic class several times.


Bill does not force you to shoot with your non-dominant hand if you do not want to, but it is a basic class so everyone
is eager to try his recommended methods. I did shoot right handed for several years because of this (though I had other reasons for my decision)

I have seen some students leave the course very frustrated because his "basic" class is quite demanding and they felt
that the hand switch put them further behind and there was little explanation/encouragement as to why they should be making this large effort.
(There was one student I remember distinctly because he was missing an eye . . . )

As part of the safety brief the Sunday night before class begins there are a few small motor experiments that are encouraged for you to try
including an eye dominance test (look though the opening in your hand . . . .).

As with many classes, they watch your progress and make suggestions but I do not think there is any "required" technique,
but some strongly suggested ideas for you to try.

[TiroFijo]

I'm left eye dominant, right handed, and I've always shot right handed. This was never an problem for IPSC shooting, perhaps the dominance is not too strong or I've learned to circumvent the issue with small/partial/quick winks at the right time.

Of course, I can also shoot with my left hand, and in this case I use my left eye as master eye. I've played a lot of rugby and some basketball when I was younger, and like to do manual labors so I have decent left hand dexterity, but I've always preferred to use my "master" hand for shooting and feel it is far easier (for most people) to learn cross dominance than to train the non dominant hand to a high level of dexterity.

For all the people screaming that "real life" is very different from IPSC, and thus both eyes wide open 100% of the time is essential for your survival, it may well be true but I personally think this is exaggerated.

[orionz06]

I think the whole idea is exaggerated and people who don't have a clue about it are searching for the one right answer because they feel the need to have an answer.

[dgg9]

I'm left eye dominant, right handed, and I've always shot right handed.

Same here. Over the years, I'm losing near vision in the right, non-dominant, eye, so switching isn't even possible anymore. I wonder how it would have been different if I started by shooting LH.

To me, the sole advantage of shooting with non-dominant hand in order to match dominant eye would be (and is, in my case) a real improvement in mechanics/ergonomics, especially one handed shooting with the "strong off-hand." There's no question it's harder for me to get the right sight picture by dragging the gun so far over. Even moreso with problematic shoulders.

On the other hand:
1. It's totally unknown if I would develop the same dexterity under pressure/time that way.
2. RH-oriented controls are at least somewhat less natural lefty, though I think reloading and racking are less important overall than aiming and shooting. Of course this becomes a plus for a LH but right eye person.
3. Rifle-pistol transitions seem clumsy (not a real-life factor for a civilian admittedly) so maybe you have to use rifle LH too?
4. Martial arts are much more natural bladed to my strong side. In theory, you're supposed to be 100% ambidextrous with martial arts, but few people are. I see this as the biggest negative. Basically, you have pistol, rifle, combatives, and IMO all should be basically congruent, where possible.

[jlw]

I'm right hand dominant and was traditionally right eye dominant. I have astigmatism in both eyes, and it is worse in my right eye. I shunned the glasses that I was supposed to be wearing for a couple of decades, but now in my early-40s, nearsightedness set in and forced me to go to corrective lenses.

With my the lenses, my left eye is now trying to take over. If I draw to a target, I'm okay, but when I attended Rogers, I had difficulty in tracking the targets and then aligning the sights.

One of the instructors noticed this and put a strip of tape down the center of the left lens on my shooting glasses. This allowed my to use my left eye to track, but forced my right eye to take over when I was looking directly ahead. It worked

[uechibear]

<snip>

... I felt like I could speak to a few of uechibear's questions.


I have had the basic class several times...

<snip>

Thanks, Guys! Both of your answers were very helpful.

[cclaxton]

I am left eye dominant and right handed. I do find issues with sighting from time to time from certain angles. But if I was to change I can't imagine going to weak hand draw...the right hand is just so naturally responsive. I have considered trying to switch to right eye dominance just as a test. Maybe I will.
Cody

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Since we've been discussing the opinion of instructor X, Y or Z - I decided to browse the scientific literature. A casual look didn't find a specific study of eye dominance and handgun usage. There is a great deal of research on such with long guns (stressing military marksmanship and professional level shotgun sports). I've quoted a couple of abstracts to give you the flavor.



Jones LF 3rd, Classe JG, Hester M, Harris K
Journal of the American Optometric Association [1996, 67(2):73-76]
Type: Journal Article
Abstract Highlight Terms
Gene Ontology(1)
BACKGROUND: This pilot study was performed to determine the effect, if any, exerted by crossed dominance (contralateral hand and eye dominance) on the ability of novice riflemen to learn how to accurately shoot a rifle.

METHODS: Sighting dominance was used to determine the dominant eye. Hand dominance was determined by the arm used to shoulder the rifle in the shooting position. Subjects were 308 military recruits at the Fort Benning Army Base in Columbus, Georgia, who had undergone basic training in rifle marksmanship. Qualification scores obtained at the base rifle range were used to measure the subjects' ability to learn marksmanship skills.

RESULTS: The subjects with right-hand/right-eye and left-hand/left-eye (uncrossed) dominance had qualification scores that were significantly higher (p =.009) than the subjects with right hand/left-eye and left-hand/right-eye (crossed) dominance. A significantly higher percentage of subjects with uncrossed dominance achieved rifle qualification (86.1 percent) than subjects with crossed dominance (56.5 percent) (p =.000).

CONCLUSIONS: The learning of rifle marksmanship is influenced by eye dominance. Individuals who shoot right handed and are left-eye dominant or who shoot left handed and are right-eye dominant do not learn marksmanship skills as readily as individuals who have matched eye and hand dominance. Since crossed hand and eye dominance can be easily determined, it should be possible to identify cross dominant individuals and provide them with special training so that they can perform at a higher level of skill.

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA611755

Abstract : This study evaluated the combined effects of a shooter s anthropometric dimensions, weapon design attributes, firing position, range, and sex on marksmanship. The US Army Research Laboratory M-Range live fire test facility was used to conduct the study. Study participants consisted of a random sample of 26 Army Soldiers recruited from the US Army Research, Development and Engineering Command Solider Support program. The study participants fired the M16A2 rifle, M4 carbine, and the Heckler & Koch (HK) G36 weapons that feature different barrel lengths and weights. Shooters were asked to fire at 50-, 100-, and 150-m targets. The multiple regression analysis indicated a high degree of correlation among the independent variables; however, the results also indicated that isometric strength, hand length, and rightward horizontal neck rotation may predict shooting performance under time pressure while firing from either a reflexive firing position or a prone firing position. Shooting performance was measured in terms of hit ratios and the radial error from a designated aimpoint. A multiple regression analysis was performed to develop a mathematical model that expresses shooting performance as a function of associated anthropometric data, weapon design data, firing posture, range and sex.

I suggest as before, that a similar sophisticated analysis is needed to determine the general effects and specific training processes for the handgun level of practice. The military or professional competition may have the time needed for intensive training for cross dominance. It is not clear to me how a class for beginners or intermediate folks who don't practice intensively would affect performance enhancement to reach an unconscious and automatic compensation under real stress. Would a detriment occur? Is it better to have a dominant hand and nondominant eye or vice versa? What are the individual variations in the effect of training? Does it work for some and not others? Is this determined by accurate measurement of dominance and performance? Does a level of mismatch based on such an analysis predict better performance than a switch of hand or eye? How does this interact with level of training?

Without such, I would be reluctant to accept as dogma an instructor saying that one should switch hands. I'm fairly decent shot with each hand - in fact, I shot a couple of classes fairly well with my nondominant hand (broke the other wrist) - so what? Being a lefty, mabye I'm mixed or just special. Such a study takes bucks, equipment and time. The services might do so, if they thought handgun usage was that important. If such a study is out there, it didn't come up quickly but let me know if you know of one.

[dgg9]

Glenn, great info. The obvious specific difference of course is that with a rifle, you generally have to shoot with one eye or the other. Handguns are usually always shot with the dominant eye, although admittedly with some contortions. Non scientific, but in my personal experiences at classes I would say 10% of shooters are cross dominant but I didn't see any obvious differences in ability. That suggests to me the effect is not major. And as I mentioned before, it's one factor among several.

[Mr_White]

Non scientific, but in my personal experiences at classes I would say 10% of shooters are cross dominant

I don't have any more scientific a basis for this than you, but my sense is that about 1/3 of the people I see in class are cross dominant.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

See if this works for a review indicating the concept is ill defined - http://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03194802

Abstract


We examine a set of implicit and explicit claims about the concept of eye dominance that have been made over the years and note that the new literature on eye dominance does not reflect the old literature from the first half of the last century. We argue that the visual and oculomotor function of the dominant eye—defined by such criteria as asymmetry in acuity, rivalry, or sighting—remains unknown and that the usefulness of the concept for understanding its function is yet to be determined. We suggest that the sighting-dominant eye is the eye used for monocular tasks and has no unique functional role in vision.


Perception & Psychophysics
February 2003, Volume 65, Issue 2, pp 310-317
What does the dominant eye dominate? A brief and somewhat contentious review

Alistair P. Mapp, Hiroshi Ono, Raphael Barbeito

I take away what I said before, I'm not convinced that forcing someone to go the nondominant hand to line up with dominant eye is the best for handguns. I'd like to see it tested in a rigorous fashion.

For a beginner, is it worth the motor skill loss (if such exists) in common handgun usage?

[GJM]

You can beat this subject to death, and I have in the past, but the answer is, there is no one right answer for everyone.

Cross eye dominance is an impediment. The impediment can be overcome, and there are at least three different approaches to doing so. Enos, Sevigny and Leatham being examples of three ways to solve it.

[SouthNarc]

Has anyone personally experienced a change eye dominance as they get older?

[GJM]

Has anyone personally experienced a change eye dominance as they get older?

I did, temporarily, when recovering from a retina problem. It happened automatically -- the hard part was learning to present the pistol under my left eye drawing. Even now, if I get a bright light, as in a reflection or bright sunshine into just my right dominant eye, my brain tries to switch to the left.

I have heard of some people switching eye dominance when fatigued, or due to an injury. For folks not strongly eye dominant, I think switching back and forth is more common.

[SAWBONES]

Has anyone personally experienced a change eye dominance as they get older?

Yes, involuntarily.
Left handed, left-eye dominant all my life.

After cataract surgery, which due to differences in the implanted lenses made my right eye have better visual acuity for near objects than my left, I can now see the front sight better with my right eye than left, but I still feel more "natural" using my left eye for visual alignment of the sights.

(Not really so much a change in eye dominance for sight use, rather a change in visual acuity for near vs. far.)

[jlw]

Has anyone personally experienced a change eye dominance as they get older?

post #21

[GJM]

Bill Rogers has told me that a RDS is a godsend for a cross dominant shooter, or person with eye issues, as measured by improvement going from irons to dot on the school test.

[GJM]

This is a write-up a friend did after an extensive experiment on cross dominance and different solutions. Posted with his permission.

----------------------------------------------------------




Background

I am strongly cross-dominant (right-handed/left-eyed). Mechanically, I have always been strongly right-handed. For example, using most hand tools feels quite awkward and uncomfortable with my left hand. When I started shooting in my late teens and early 20s, I naturally fell into shooting as a right-hander, and shot rifles (usually with scopes) off my right shoulder, using my right eye. This worked reasonably well, although I always closed my left eye.

However, with handguns, I moved early to a cross-dominant stance wherein I tilted my head to the right and moved the gun under my left eye. I think this came about in large part because I started shooting action pistol matches very early and the benefits of shooting with both eyes open were very quickly evident. The only way I could do this was to use the left eye to align the sights. This stance now feels natural and comfortable to me, although it has some problems:

1) The head tilt to the right needed to align the left eye to the gun is a forced position. It is not "natural", as the head is not erect.

2) I tend to break my right wrist slightly off-line to the right to comfortably align the left eye to the sights. This would appear to at least slightly reduce the effectiveness of the recoil control benefits from a natural, in-line skeletal structure.

However, it worked well enough for me to develop reasonably competent pistol shooting skills with a wide range of handguns and recoil levels (e.g., I am a 5-Gun Expert in IDPA) and adequate rifle shooting skills. However, when I took up the shotgun (mostly sporting clays), I had to learn to shoot left-shoulder/left eye, as non-dominant eye wing-shooting simply doesn't work, IMHO. This experience encouraged me to do more rifle shooting on my left side and I developed a reasonable level of ambidexterity in long gun shooting skills as a result. My strong hand/weak hand handgun shooting skills were also reasonably well developed, due to lots of practice for match competition.

About 5-6 years ago, as a result of a tennis elbow problem caused by poor ergonomics in using a computer mouse at work, I had to switch over to using a mouse entirely with my left hand. I do a lot of relatively fine drawing work with the mouse, particularly at work, so it was very awkward and difficult at first, but I really had no choice and was forced to learn how to make it work. Eventually, I reached the point that I was completely ambidextrous in this regard, and could use a computer mouse with either hand equally well, and I continued to do so, even after the tendon inflammation in my right arm subsided.

At this point, I could do two tasks well ambidextrously, work the standard computer MMI and shoot long guns. My one-handed shooting skills with both left/right hand were reasonably good (although strong hand only was much better than weak hand only), but I had not put any real effort into trying to shoot handguns truly ambidextrously.

The Rogers Class & The Experiment

This brings me up to late 2012, when I signed up to take the Rogers Advanced Handgun Class for the first time in the Spring of 2013. After reading about the strong class emphasis on weak hand shooting (25% of the class test is fired weak-handed), I decided to train up for the class by switching my match and practice routine to include a lot of weak-hand handgun shooting. I bought a left-hand Comp-Tac holster and mag pouches for my G34 and proceeded to spend ~5 months trying to learn to shoot left-handed/left-eyed with a handgun. I never got real good at it, but it did help improve my weak-handed shooting considerably. I went to Rogers and shot Intermediate, with my best test score being 102/125, missing Advanced by 8 points.

After the class, I switched back to full time strong-side shooting again. I had never developed a real smooth left-handed presentation, but my weak-hand only shooting was now pretty good, to the point that I was very comfortable doing it and was capable of getting good hits at speed.

In mid-2013, I signed up to go back to Rogers again and this time, I decided to really push to see if, perhaps, I could gain enough performance improvement to justify switching over to left-hand shooting full time. My plan was to shoot the class left-handed and see how well I could do. I basically wanted to test the hypothesis that cross-dominant shooters should simply "change hands", which is Bill Rogers' position, among others. I started training up earlier (~6-8 months before the class) and worked hard at developing proficiency, particularly with the presentation. I actually shot a couple of sanctioned IDPA matches left-handed, and worked on a lot of dry fire practice.

I did shoot the 2014 Rogers class left-handed and managed to make Intermediate again, both left-handed (92/125), as well as right-handed on the last day and a half of the class (97/125).

Here is a summary of what I think I learned over the course of this experiment:

1) If you put enough effort into it, you can get pretty good at weak-hand shooting, even with very strong handed dominance. My left-hand presentation was good enough to meet my 1.5 sec draw standard from concealment, and my shooting was pretty good, although not quite as good as I could do strong-handed. My weak-hand abilities are now very satisfactory and I feel I could carry a gun full time left-handed, if necessary, and be effective using it.

2) Weak-hand shooting under the dominant eye "feels good". I found my bullseye shooting weak-handed was better than strong-handed, and I now tend to shoot demanding precision shots two-handed with the left hand. This was confirmed in some other testing I did with a Ruger 22 bullseye gun that I built up with a Volquartsen trigger and a red dot sight. My groups were tighter, shooting left-hand freestyle, and it just felt right.

3) It took a long time, probably 4+ months, before I felt I was effective in using the right hand to fully support the left hand in freestyle shooting. Initially, the right hand was always on the gun, but it wasn't really helping that much in gripping the gun or controlling recoil. It was only by dint of much practice that I was able to overcome this.

4) Old habits are hard to break. The mind/body can easily get confused over where the gun and reload magazines are. "Same gun, Same place, All the time" has a lot to recommend it. Even after over half a year of practice, this was still a problem.

5) Finger control and muzzle safety was sloppier with the left hand. No major problems, but I was essentially starting over again in developing an instinctive feel for keeping my finger off the trigger, when not engaging targets, and always pointing the muzzle in a safe direction.

6) The biggest problem with my left-hand shooting that I noticed in the Rogers class was that my target transitions with the left hand were just not as as quick as with the right. The Rogers range is very demanding in requiring that the shooter "keep up" with the targets and engage them quickly as they appear. If you get behind, you're screwed, and it's easy to fall apart. I was just slow enough transitioning targets left-handed to make this a noticeable problem throughout the class.

The Bottom Line

After messing around with this for approximately a year and a half, my opinion on cross-dominant handgun shooting is that Bill Rogers is right. A NEW shooter should be encouraged to shoot under the dominant eye with the non-dominant hand. I am convinced that, with enough practice, I could learn to shoot at least a smidgen better (perhaps a good bit better) with my left hand. If I had started out that way, I think I would be a better handgun shooter today.

However, being in my late 50's, I personally don't think its worth the trouble at this point. I have far too many synapses burned in place for shooting right-handed to continue to pursue this experiment further. In addition, the required investment in new holsters and mag pouches for the stable of handguns I already own would be considerable.

However, I feel have benefited greatly from the effort. My weak-hand shooting is now pretty darn good, giving me a lot of confidence, and a lot of speed, in those competition stages that require it. It is also nice to know that, if I had to carry a gun full time on the weak side, due to injury, etc., I could, and I wouldn't be giving up a whole lot in a practical sense.

That's my $0.02 on the matter. As always, YMMV.

[DMF13]

I'm cross dominant (left eye/right hand). Here's a few things I've learned over the years:

1. The only instructors I've seen that feel cross-dominance is a problem with handguns are NOT cross-dominant themselves.

2. Those same instructors who will tell cross-dominant students what a huge problem it is, do not discuss eye dominance issues at all when instructing students who are not cross dominant to shoot "weak hand." If it's such a problem for cross-dominant students when shooting strong hand, why is not even discussed as a factor when teaching student who are not cross dominant to shoot weak hand?

3. Once I got the foolish idea that cross dominance was a problem out of my head, and simply put the gun up in front of my dominant eye regardless of which hand I was shooting with, everything became easier.

4. With long guns, if you want to shoot with both eyes open, you have to from the side of the dominant eye. So with rifles and shotguns I shoot those lefty.

[JHC]

Years ago I met a USPSA shooter from FL that was also a biology teacher and that for one reason or another got into testing the speed of reflexes. He said flat out the following applies to natural speed of reflexes.

1st fastest - left eye dominant pure lefties.

2nd fastest - cross eye dominant

3rd fastest - right eye dominant who when they naturally bring their hands together and interlock their fingers, place their LEFT thumb over their right thumb.

4th fastest and first slowest - right eye dominant who when they naturally bring their hands together and interlock their fingers, place their RIGHT thumb over their left thumb.

He told me he had relationships in the military special operations community where they had him take measurements and he had done the same for sports teams and the rules were universal in his observation.

[TiroFijo]

Interesting... I'm right handed, cross eye dominant, and when bringing my arms together I naturally place my left thumb over my right one.

I've always had pretty quick reflexes and very good hand-eye coordination, I thought it was as least partly because I played a lot of table tennis when I was a kid.

In any case, for 99.99% of cases of defensive/combat shooting probably 0.1 second won't make a crucial difference.

With enough training almost anybody (not all) could learn to shoot with either hand. I just think some people are dogmatic, or worry too much about very small accurary/speed differences instead of tactics.

[Peally]

Bill Rogers has told me that a RDS is a godsend for a cross dominant shooter, or person with eye issues, as measured by improvement going from irons to dot on the school test.

In my experience this is correct for long guns. I'm left eye - right hand, use an RDS on an AR without issue, and automatically close my left eye when shooting shotgun or other irons. For pistols it has never been anything close to a problem as the gun naturally shifts right in front of my dominant eye. Never had to tilt my head or anything, everything lines up just fine aside from perhaps an imperceptible half inch turn of the head to the right for me.

IMO unless you plan on exclusively shooting trap for life wasting all that time learning to shoot with opposite hands is plain old stupid (unless you're 8 years old and pick it up right away). It's much ado about nothing, the body figures it all out and regardless you can make it to the top of whatever sport you choose if you get out and practice. Looking at the other responses I think we're all in agreement and if I ran into someone that insisted I was doing it wrong I'd out shoot their ass and laugh all the way back to the car :D

[JustOneGun]

GJM great write up.

I did a similar experiment and came to a few different conclusions. I shoot right handed, right eye dominate. So when I switched as an experiment I was then left handed, right eye dominate. I believe this was easier for me to do because I write left handed. Yeah, I'm one of those people. After a year, hundreds of hours of dryfire and around 10,000-12,000 rounds (signed out 10k but also shot FoF and demonstrated drills as a lefty) these are my thoughts:

1. If needed due to injury it can be done. With a lot of work a person can get close to the same speed as their other hand.
2. Because I knew how to shoot at a higher level, switching was actually easier. I didn't have to learn the draw, I just had to translate it to left handed. This is the main reason why I came to a different conclusion than GJM. I think a newer person who didn't have the kinesthetic awareness pathways would actually have a harder time learning.
3. Learning to clear malfunctions and reload were the hardest. It's hard to reload when you are laughing at yourself. At first it was definitely a special needs moment.
4. I could shoot 50-100 yard shots easier left handed with the cross dominance better than right handed. (Remember I write left handed).
5. I found putting the gun to my nose and turning my head slightly to the gun lined up my eye with the sights better than bringing the pistol to the right eye. After a few weeks this was done consistently. After a year I felt that I had engrained this enough to do it in a gunfight.
6. I was never able to quite get the speed up enough to say it was better or the same as my right hand. I felt (literally) that it was my weak hand and not the cross dominance that caused this difference.

I believe I put in more time and effort than most shooters would. I still came away with the idea that my left hand was sub-par in a gunfight. I would recommend that instructors take a few months to do this. Learning to use the pistol at a high level left handed and cross eye dominate made me a better instructor. I personally don't believe instructors should recommend that new shooters do this. Learning to turn my head versus leaning it over and bringing the pistol to the middle was far easier than making my left hand work like my right.

[GJM]

Just to be clear, I was posting that write up, made by a friend. It is his report of his experience with this.

[orionz06]

Seems that all of the people who suggest switching hands neglect to consider other aspects off self defense beyond shooting. How does one protect/retain their weapon if it's on their other strong side? MUC/encroaching BG? How does one handle this? Even those who haven't trained any sort of striking have some sort of tendencies. How does that pair of with shooting backwards? Is that even a consideration by those suggesting that cross dominant shooters are invalids?

[JustOneGun]

Just to be clear, I was posting that write up, made by a friend. It is his report of his experience with this.

Gotcha. I should never write anything before at least one cuppa. LOL

[GJM]

I am right eye, right hand dominant, so my interest is more academic than personal.

[dgg9]

Seems that all of the people who suggest switching hands neglect to consider other aspects off self defense beyond shooting. How does one protect/retain their weapon if it's on their other strong side? MUC/encroaching BG? How does one handle this? Even those who haven't trained any sort of striking have some sort of tendencies.

I also wonder how many people have thought this through, outside the lens of shooting mechanics. The more time you spent with martial arts, the more you're going to have an instinctive "startle" position that is hard, almost impossible, to retrain. A RH person has to become a southpaw in stance to effect retention. Not to mention, h2h in general.

[breakingtime91]

I am right handed but left eye dominant. I didn't understand that this was the case until I joined the Marine Corps in 2009. My primary marksmanship instructor identified the issue right away and his exactly words to me were "it's only an issue if you make it an issue". I shot expert using a m16a2 with iron sights with my non dominant eye. I carried this trend throughout infantry school and always took close to perfect scores on all of the table of fires. I then went on to deploy twice to South Helmand where I managed to do pretty decent using my non dominant eye. I think there are some things you have to realize with shooting a long gun with your non dominate eye and they are: Anything other then a magnified optic you have to shoot with one eye closed and stop listening to what other people say. I found 1-4x optics suck my right eye in enough that it makes it a non issue, YMMV. With all of that said, my left hand sucks for anything besides support. While seeing is a really important part of fighting, so is dexterity and being comfortable when it comes to take a shot.

As far as pistols are concerned, I bring the gun to my left eye. While I am not the best pistol shooter, I feel this is the least of my worries.

[Peally]

My primary marksmanship instructor identified the issue right away and his exactly words to me were "it's only an issue if you make it an issue"

He pretty much nailed it out of the park with that statement.

/thread :D

[Drang]

My primary marksmanship instructor identified the issue right away and his exactly words to me were "it's only an issue if you make it an issue".
Drill Sergeant Dailey said that you could do everything wrong, but if you did it consistently you could still shoot well. I think that was the same day he told us he never cleaned his competition "guns." It's amazing I lasted 20 years with a start like that. :p

[Lomshek]

It would seem to be just as hard to learn to switch hand sides as it would be to switch eye sides.

I'm in the show them the options and let them decide what works best. Most folks will never spend the time training to become dexterous with their non-dominant hand so are probably best off just tilting their head when shooting a handgun if they're cross dominant.

I have used the tape over the lens trick many times to help shooters try using the other eye or learn to ignore the non-aiming eye to good effect. This would seem to help when a cross dominant shooter is shooting a long gun and having trouble closing the non-aiming eye.

[John Hearne]

It would seem to be just as hard to learn to switch hand sides as it would be to switch eye sides.

I think we are forgetting what eye dominance means. Eye dominance mostly means that the brain has a preferred eye for visual information. The quality of in the information delivered to the brain by the dominant eye is fuller and more accurate. When we occlude the more dominant eye, we are making a decision to deprive the brain of its best source of visual information. If the non-dominant eye is still pushing "good enough" information to the brain, then we're probably OK. I'd offer that there is a possibility, in some individuals, that the quality of the information is so sub-standard from the non-dominant eye that performance is affected. Given how visual the Rogers experience is, I can easily see why Bill emphasizes the matching of eye and hand dominance in the basic class.

[breakingtime91]

with a pistol, why would you not bring the gun to the dominant eye....I shoot right handed and with my left eye.

[thebigdogbarks]

I'm right hand dominant and was traditionally right eye dominant. I have astigmatism in both eyes, and it is worse in my right eye. I shunned the glasses that I was supposed to be wearing for a couple of decades, but now in my early-40s, nearsightedness set in and forced me to go to corrective lenses.

With my the lenses, my left eye is now trying to take over. If I draw to a target, I'm okay, but when I attended Rogers, I had difficulty in tracking the targets and then aligning the sights.

One of the instructors noticed this and put a strip of tape down the center of the left lens on my shooting glasses. This allowed my to use my left eye to track, but forced my right eye to take over when I was looking directly ahead. It worked


Was it clear like scotch tape or totally opaque like electrician's tape and how wide was it? Thanks.

PS Enjoy your podcast - especially with either Hearne or Cagle (could you get them on together or would you both pick on John?)

[thebigdogbarks]

Has anyone personally experienced a change eye dominance as they get older?

Yes. I am right handed and in my late 60s and have astigmatism in both eyes (at least recently, the right is worse than left). Several years ago, I was checked by several instructors (Sig Sauer Academy, Larry Mudgett, etc) using several tests - later confirmed by both my ophthalmologist and my optician (who is a shooter) and found to be right eye dominant. In the past year, my left eye has become dominant (but it's not strongly dominant) - tested multiple times and confirmed by several people.

I think Mike (Ox) Ochsner reports this in his book, but I don't recall the prevalence.