View Full Version : Prequel to .45 Super thread
Moderator note: These posts are what lead to GJM's dedicated HK USP/.45 super thread, located here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16503-HK-USP-45-field-pistol
Thank you. The 1066 and 1076 are now back in town, but I will experiment further when I am reunited with them.
I bought a USP 45 back in the winter during that HK factory sale, and shot it for the first time today. It ran several boxes of ball and Ranger 230 .45 acp ammo without issue, and then gobbled up 50 Buffalo Bore .45 Super cartridges. The gun felt very controllable with the .45 Super ammo, and if it continues so, a pair of those may be my field bigger bore semi auto pistols. Not surprising, but it was extremely accurate. The Super ammo hit an inch or two lower than the .acp at 25 yards.
WilsonCombatRep
06-02-2015, 03:50 PM
Thank you. The 1066 and 1076 are now back in town, but I will experiment further when I am reunited with them.
I bought a USP 45 back in the winter during that HK factory sale, and shot it for the first time today. It ran several boxes of ball and Ranger 230 .45 acp ammo without issue, and then gobbled up 50 Buffalo Bore .45 Super cartridges. The gun felt very controllable with the .45 Super ammo, and if it continues so, a pair of those may be my field bigger bore semi auto pistols. Not surprising, but it was extremely accurate. The Super ammo hit an inch or two lower than the .acp at 25 yards.
I shot some super out of a USP Compact 45. Worked fine. A little flippy :)
I shot some super out of a USP Compact 45. Worked fine. A little flippy :)
I bet. Not too bad from the FS USP. Wasn't aware it was kosher in the Compact? Boss man likes Super.
1slow
06-02-2015, 08:05 PM
How would HK45 and HK45C hold up for .45 Super ? Are they as strong as the USP full size ?
I remember hearing that the HK MK23 was engineered around some 1100fps 230 gr load but have no Idea of the truth of this.
1slow
06-09-2015, 12:15 AM
According to some on HK Forum MK23 and USP full size will take a lot of .45 Super. The HK45 is not as strong they say.
1slow
06-29-2015, 03:37 PM
Moving stuff from storage I came across American Handgunner 2002 Tactical annual.
USP article mentions that USP 45s have fired 6000 rounds of 45 Super without incident. I even highlighted this but totally forgot about it. Neat article covers MK23 as well.
Same issue has Darryl Bolke's Strider article !
Moving stuff from storage I came across American Handgunner 2002 Tactical annual.
USP article mentions that USP 45s have fired 6000 rounds of 45 Super without incident. I even highlighted this but totally forgot about it. Neat article covers MK23 as well.
Same issue has Darryl Bolke's Strider article !
Bolke and the USP, it was fated then! I am digging' my USP with DA/SA and a thumb safety and .45 Super as a field gun.
1slow
06-29-2015, 07:47 PM
Bolke and the USP, it was fated then! I am digging' my USP with DA/SA and a thumb safety and .45 Super as a field gun.
I think you are right and the HK USP .45 with .45 Super will replace 10mm GL20,29 as a combo social/field gun. Do you see any particular advantage to the USP Tactical .45 ? I may get out of 10mm entirely any thoughts ?
I went down many strange roads with this question, Grizzly .45 Win Mag, and .50 AE , Desert Eagle .50AE ( with tritium sights even).
They were either too heavy (DE), out of production and logistically unsupportable (Grizzlys), or not reliable with hot ammo (GL20,29). Grizzlys were in my 1911 days, same manual of arms.
I think you are right and the HK USP .45 with .45 Super will replace 10mm GL20,29 as a combo social/field gun. Do you see any particular advantage to the USP Tactical .45 ? I may get out of 10mm entirely any thoughts ?
As I understand it, the Tactical has the match trigger, adjustable and taller black sights and a threaded barrel. I think I prefer the regular USP 45 with a match trigger (which I need to get installed), fixed sights (that I have HD sights to fit) and a regular barrel.
I did a 50-80 yard session with the USP 45 today. First I was shooting 230 Winchester white box ball. First few shots, I thought "darn miss," and then after what seemed like all day later, I heard the hit on the steel. Haven't been shooting much .45 acp at long range lately, and the difference in velocity was startling. First hit at 65 yards with the .45 Super felt like 9mm velocity, and then knocked the entire 8 inch steel on a 2x4 on a MGM base right over! I am used to knocking targets over with 10mm up close, especially with successive shots, but was quite surprised how hard the Super hit from 65 yards.
In many instances, I think the HK is so overbuilt, it compromises performance. However, with the .45 and Super ammo, given my use around bears, I think it is perfectly built, and the HK is likely to replace my Glock 20, Glock 29, and the S&W 1066/1076 in the field pistol niche. Real easy to get used to a DA/SA trigger with a thumb safety after these extensive AIWB threads.
1slow
06-29-2015, 10:30 PM
It looks like the slide cuts on the regular USP 45 and the USP Tactical .45 are the same. I agree that the HKs tend to be Baja trucks rather than Ferraris. I even looked at the HK MK23 but I do not think you gain much for the size increase, different controls etc... though it is probably the toughest match accurate pistol built. Logistics and it having different controls to me are a downside.
Does the O ring on the Tactical gain you much accuracy ?
Not sure about the O ring and accuracy, but my regular USP was whacking an 8 inch at 75 yards with ball, which is plenty accurate for my needs.
1slow
06-29-2015, 11:50 PM
That would do it I think.
I was just studying the Tactical.
Like the O ring and match trigger. How usable would the tall adjustable sights be, or would they need to be replaced? Think the threaded barrel would screw up holsters?
1slow
06-30-2015, 12:26 AM
I would probably put Trijicon HD Orange front sights on any of them. Extra length of threaded barrel might make AIWB uncomfortable. If the holster is designed for it I think you would be OK in other than AIWB position.
I like the supposed extra accuracy of the rubber O ring.
1slow
07-03-2015, 01:28 AM
The more I read and research the more I like your HK USP .45 Super idea. I just looked up the Keith heavy .44 Special load 250gr @ 1200 fps. If memory serves this was what he did most of his work with.
It appears the Buffalo Bore 230gr @ 1100 fps or the 255 @ 1090 fps are very close to Keith's heavy .44 Special, in a 12+1 round gun that is similar to a gun that I shoot a lot.
This is certainly not a .500 Linebaugh or even a full .44 mag but is I think a very handy powerful sidearm compromise.
The more I read and research the more I like your HK USP .45 Super idea. I just looked up the Keith heavy .44 Special load 250gr @ 1200 fps. If memory serves this was what he did most of his work with.
It appears the Buffalo Bore 230gr @ 1100 fps or the 255 @ 1090 fps are very close to Keith's heavy .44 Special, in a 12+1 round gun that is similar to a gun that I shoot a lot.
This is certainly not a .500 Linebaugh or even a full .44 mag but is I think a very handy powerful sidearm compromise.
+1 as has been said many times those slugs and ballistics can get done all the heavy lifting on this continent. Recalling all the feats of penetration on large animals Keith reported with that .44 Special load.
The thing about an HK, is you pretty much know it will be accurate, reliable, and durable through a combination of their engineering and manufacturing process. The other part of HK is they sometimes focus on the accurate and reliable part to the detriment of shootability. However, in the case of a field gun, where reliability is paramount, and the alternatives have not been reliable, shooting the loads that are desirable around larger animals, that big, strong USP looks darn attractive.
I shot my USP again yesterday afternoon. I definitely don't shoot it as fast as my 320, but I shoot it just fine by the requirements for a field pistol, and it has never given me a hint of anything but 100 percent reliability.
1slow
07-03-2015, 10:34 AM
The thing about an HK, is you pretty much know it will be accurate, reliable, and durable through a combination of their engineering and manufacturing process. The other part of HK is they sometimes focus on the accurate and reliable part to the detriment of shootability. However, in the case of a field gun, where reliability is paramount, and the alternatives have not been reliable, shooting the loads that are desirable around larger animals, that big, strong USP looks darn attractive.
I shot my USP again yesterday afternoon. I definitely don't shoot it as fast as my 320, but I shoot it just fine by the requirements for a field pistol, and it has never given me a hint of anything but 100 percent reliability.
HK is like a truck built to explore/pre-run Baja, durability, reliability and accuracy are chosen over absolute ease of handling and speed. I think it is more likely that one can learn to drive it fast for field use vs. learn to re engineer a more unreliable higher performance unit for reliability.
LSP552
07-03-2015, 11:15 AM
Soooo....GJM,
Are you telling me I need to pick up a 45 USP for Super as my dink around Alaska pistol? I've resisted replacing my 45 Blackhawk with the G20 based on the problems problems you guys have discussed here more than once. It just seems that a full power 10mm is at the limit of reliability for most (all?) semi-autos.
Guess the .45 USP fits in the HPG bag?
Soooo....GJM,
Are you telling me I need to pick up a 45 USP for Super as my dink around Alaska pistol? I've resisted replacing my 45 Blackhawk with the G20 based on the problems problems you guys have discussed here more than once. It just seems that a full power 10mm is at the limit of reliability for most (all?) semi-autos.
Guess the .45 USP fits in the HPG bag?
Considering a Glock 20, Glock 29, Glock 22 with after market barrel and hard cast, the 1066, and 1076, the USP 45 with 230 FMJ-FP Buffalo Bore .45 Super ammo* is way at the top of my list for a field pistol. The main reason is reliability.
*The only caveat is I would like to see some penetration testing of the 230 FMJ-FP (and the heavier hard cast loads, if I got confirmation that the hard cast is compatible with the HK barrel). Anecdotally and using common sense, I am fine with a .45 bullet at 1,100 something fps getting the job done.
LSP552
07-03-2015, 02:39 PM
Considering a Glock 20, Glock 29, Glock 22 with after market barrel and hard cast, the 1066, and 1076, the USP 45 with 230 FMJ-FP Buffalo Bore .45 Super ammo* is way at the top of my list for a field pistol. The main reason is reliability.
*The only caveat is I would like to see some penetration testing of the 230 FMJ-FP (and the heavier hard cast loads, if I got confirmation that the hard cast is compatible with the HK barrel). Anecdotally and using common sense, I am fine with a .45 bullet at 1,100 something fps getting the job done.
Thanks George. Completely agree that it's worthless if it doesn't work when you need it. It seem pretty hard to imagine that a .45 @ 1,100 wouldn't poke holes in about anything needing poked.
LSP972
07-03-2015, 03:18 PM
Damn, GJM… looks like you're going to accomplish what I've been unable to… get my guy to buy an HK.
.
Well, since the average USP has one of the worst double-action pulls this side of Russian revolvers, one can understand his hesitation!
LSP972
07-03-2015, 03:25 PM
It seem pretty hard to imagine that a .45 @ 1,100 wouldn't poke holes in about anything needing poked.
If you do this, here's a plan… I'll call Donnie and get an assortment of his FP bullets for .45 Colt, sized appropriately; you can see what the USP will and won't feed, and go hard-cast from there.
But if StarLine .45 Super brass is priced anywhere near the other boutique stuff they offer, get set to take it in the shorts.
And I'll even help you pick out a concealment holster for that beast.
This is gonna be fun…:D
.
LSP972
07-03-2015, 03:26 PM
Well, since the average USP has one of the worst double-action pulls this side of Russian revolvers, one can understand his hesitation!
Ah, so, grasshopper… you are correct when speaking of the dreaded V1 (DA/SA).
The esteemed LEM is more better…;)
.
LSP972
07-03-2015, 03:43 PM
The HK45 is not as strong they say.
Where are you getting this from? Genuinely curious; while the HK45 does have a bit less meat in the slide, it and the USPf are pretty much identical "under the hood". The trigger action conversion kits, aside from the mainspring, ARE identical.
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If you do this, here's a plan… I'll call Donnie and get an assortment of his FP bullets for .45 Colt, sized appropriately; you can see what the USP will and won't feed, and go hard-cast from there.
But if StarLine .45 Super brass is priced anywhere near the other boutique stuff they offer, get set to take it in the shorts.
And I'll even help you pick out a concealment holster for that beast.
This is gonna be fun…:D
.
Ah, so, grasshopper… you are correct when speaking of the dreaded V1 (DA/SA).
The esteemed LEM is more better…;)
.
Where are you getting this from? Genuinely curious; while the HK45 does have a bit less meat in the slide, it and the USPf are pretty much identical "under the hood". The trigger action conversion kits, aside from the mainspring, ARE identical.
.
1) I have two USP 45's. Just about to bring the second one on-line. If my #2 also feeds the Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP, based on what I have read, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot 50 of those cartridges through a USP 45 and call it good. The great thing about the .45/.45 Super plan, is you can shoot 230 .45 acp ball or equivalent for practice, and carry .45 Super in the field, with a POI so close as to not matter on 8 inch steel out to 75 yards. That is much more economical than buying 10mm.
2) I think the option of a match OEM DA/SA trigger for $125 from HK makes DA/SA very viable.
3) HK Pro is a great source on all things HK, and they seem pretty sure on the difference between the USP and HK45 with Super ammo.
Jared
07-03-2015, 05:20 PM
GJM,
If I'm remembering correctly, Jeff Cooper held the Hornady 230gr FMJ FP in pretty high regard for its penetration ability, I understand you knew him and therefore may prove that I'm mis-remembering, but it's something that came to mind reading your post above about penetration.
Poconnor
07-03-2015, 05:20 PM
Your use of HK's with .45 super deserves a new thread. If for no other reason so I can track your progress before I spend any money.
El Cid
07-03-2015, 06:00 PM
Well, since the average USP has one of the worst double-action pulls this side of Russian revolvers, one can understand his hesitation!
People actually use the DA trigger press? My USP's were always carried cocked and locked. Can't think of any reason to shoot it DA/SA with the V1.
LSP972
07-03-2015, 06:03 PM
1) I have two USP 45's. Just about to bring the second one on-line. If my #2 also feeds the Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP, based on what I have read, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot 50 of those cartridges through a USP 45 and call it good. The great thing about the .45/.45 Super plan, is you can shoot 230 .45 acp ball or equivalent for practice, and carry .45 Super in the field, with a POI so close as to not matter on 8 inch steel out to 75 yards. That is much more economical than buying 10mm.
2) I think the option of a match OEM DA/SA trigger for $125 from HK makes DA/SA very viable.
3) HK Pro is a great source on all things HK, and they seem pretty sure on the difference between the USP and HK45 with Super ammo.
1) Makes sense
2) A LEM kit is about the same money. Does that match kit clean up the DA trigger?
3) I know, I'm on there almost every day. Just haven't been paying attention to the .45 Super threads. I'll peruse them.
.
LSP972
07-03-2015, 06:05 PM
Can't think of any reason to shoot it DA/SA with the V1.
Because some of us have been using point'n'pull pistols for a very long time, don't have the "take safety off before firing" muscle memory, and don't care to re-train.
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People actually use the DA trigger press? My USP's were always carried cocked and locked. Can't think of any reason to shoot it DA/SA with the V1.
To improve trigger-finger strength and make everything else seem easy?
GJM,
If I'm remembering correctly, Jeff Cooper held the Hornady 230gr FMJ FP in pretty high regard for its penetration ability, I understand you knew him and therefore may prove that I'm mis-remembering, but it's something that came to mind reading your post above about penetration.
GJM knows better but that one was in Gossip -- the hornady FMJ FP was preferred because the Colonel thought the meplat would be disruptive. I think Doc would take issue with that.
I have a bunch of those loaded up to 950 fps, using HS6.
Moderator note: These posts are what lead to GJM's dedicated HK USP/.45 super thread, located here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16503-HK-USP-45-field-pistol
Chuck Haggard
06-14-2016, 05:56 AM
GJM knows better but that one was in Gossip -- the hornady FMJ FP was preferred because the Colonel thought the meplat would be disruptive. I think Doc would take issue with that.
I have a bunch of those loaded up to 950 fps, using HS6.
That meplat also helps insure that the bullet penetrates straight.
I've noted for some time that FMJFPs and SWCs go deeper than FMJRN, in general, due to the RN bullets tending to yaw.
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