Hk p2000 lem

[NorthernHeat]

I am looking at getting a P2000 LEM and was wondering what people who had them were thinking of them when compared to guns like the G19 or the P30 LEM?

I currently have a G19 and P30 LEM V1 and I really like them both. I have more time on the G19 and I love the size it is but I also very much feel that the LEM is a great trigger for actual carry ( in terms of having a physical hammer to block and also a longer take up but the take up being light).

Most of the stuff I have read on the P2000 LEM is older and Pre-P30 so I was wondering would it be worth getting a P2000 LEM and working with it or should I just buy another G19 or P30 and forget about the P2000 LEM?

It almost seems like to me that the P2000 take the size of the G19 but adds in the LEM from the P30.... am I wrong?

[Cecil Burch]

It almost seems like to me that the P2000 take the size of the G19 but adds in the LEM from the P30.... am I wrong?


Pretty much.

I have been using that gun since late December. Really, really digging it. Especially with the flat mag base, it carries for me identically to the G19, and I love the LEM trigger. That, along with the external hammer, satisfies my AIWB willies.

And the weirdest thing is I shoot it better (read that as more consistently better) than any other pistol I have used. I don't know if it is that the gun fits me best, or if the LEM trigger forces me to focus more. Whatever the reason, I am showing the best results, both in accuracy and speed, I have ever done before.

Count me a very much pro P2000 LEM!

[imp1295]

I'd echo Cecil's comments about flat base pads. Otherwise, to me, with the finger extensions it conceals equal to a P30. Plus, my other comments I sent ya.

[HCM]

The P2000 LEM V1 is a great pistol and will give you the LEM in a Glock 19 size package. Like the Glock 23 it's a little too much of a good thing in 40 but the 9 is great. Be warned a P2000k LEM 9 may follow.

[NorthernHeat]

That is all GREAT to hear!

I think the G19 size gun is the sweet spot (at least for me) and the LEM like we have talked about on here is a great "street" trigger....

Yall are not helping the bank account though :)

It will definitely be in 9mm and I really prefer the flat base plates I think.

[Dagga Boy]

It is my favorite AIWB pistol and what I use now when carry a pistol in front of 2:00.

[NorthernHeat]

It is my favorite AIWB pistol and what I use now when carry a pistol in front of 2:00.

.... I can actually feel the money slipping out of my wallet....

[45dotACP]

Well not that I would ever dissuade or suggest a new gun coming home, buuuuut you could always get a Gadget for your G19....(Bob Barker voice on) "aaaaand a new P2000!" ;)

[NorthernHeat]

Well not that I would ever dissuade or suggest a new gun coming home, buuuuut you could always get a Gadget for your G19....(Bob Barker voice on) "aaaaand a new P2000!" ;)

That is actually maybe going to be the plan.

I just got a new G19 which I am very happy with. Actually getting this new 19 made me appreciate how much I love that size of gun and then I realized how much I really like the LEM from the P30.... and the idea for a P2000 began!

[imp1295]

DB.
Is yours the gray guns version that was a steal a while back? How's it compare to you V1s and V2s?

[TGS]

I have a P2000 that has been my primary since 2010, until now as I'm shooting a SIG.

It has been dead nuts reliable in 25000 rounds. The only stoppages were from the slide impacting a barricade, 2 dud primers on cheap ammo, and 2 failures to extract on steel MFS. They don't seem to like steel cased ammo from my own experience and what I've read.

I think the P2000 has the best manual of arms in the market. Add in an HK45C mag release to mag make mag changes easy as can be. Note that I never really caught onto the LEM, mine is TDA.

I recently added some P30 mags with X-grips. I used to carry it with the 16 round German Police Model mags before I moved to NJ. I tried the flat 13 round baseplate and did not like them, greatly preferring the extended pinky rest. I really do love the gun, especially after it being my first serious use gun....but I find the trigger, recoil and grip of the classic SIGs to be more enjoyable...though I don't like the controls of the SIG. I've often thought that maybe the oft-forgotten USPc would be a better choice, as I can not only get the same Gray Guns trigger job I have now, but do it on a match trigger to start with. The USPc grip feels more secure, as well. Check it out.

[SecondsCount]

I have had one for a couple years and it gets carried a lot and shot very little, as I practice with the P30 LEM V2, but I find it to be almost as easy to shoot.

[YVK]

If I were forced to have only one HK, the P2000 would be it. Without such restrictions, 2000sk is my choice for a discreet-er carry and 30L for a full size carry.

[walker2713]

Love my P2000 LEM V1 in .40S&W!! It came as a V2, but I sent it to Marine0303 with the parts for installation....makes all the difference in the world!!

It carries AIWB in a Garrett Industries holster as well or better than a G19....very comfortable.

I've got 6 mags, with one having a flat base pad for EDC.

George

[pat701]

My son has carried one on the job for 5 years now and doesn't care for it.

[JodyH]

Nobody cares for the gear they're issued, it's one of those "grass is greener" things.

A P2000 V2 LEM 9mm would be the first gun I replaced if my safe drowned in a lake tomorrow and I had to start over from zero.

[Beat Trash]

I'm really close to buying a P2000 LEM in 9mm. But I need some input...

I was under the impression that the only P2000 LEM's sold in this country were the V2's. I found a company selling P2000 V1's on line. My web search shows the V1 as having a trigger pull of 20 Newtons and the V2 has having a trigger pull of 32 Newtons (7.3 lbs).

I'm looking hard at the P2000 V1 variant, but is there any reason I should go with the V2 over the V1?

[JodyH]

The V2 has a much more positive reset. I find the V1 reset to be lazy and my finger would often outrun the trigger during reset. Since I like for my trigger finger to have constant contact with the trigger face the V1 was not going to work for me.

[HCM]

Having carried a USPC V2 for 8 years I would go with the V1. I've found I can shoot the V1 LEM a little faster and its a little easier to shoot 1 handed.

You can always convert it to V4 / TLG configuration if you find yourself out running the trigger. The V4 is basically V1 with heavier trigger return.

[SecondsCount]

The V2 has a much more positive reset. I find the V1 reset to be lazy and my finger would often outrun the trigger during reset. Since I like for my trigger finger to have constant contact with the trigger face the V1 was not going to work for me.

I am the same way. My P30 and P2000 are V2 and I don't find the trigger weight to be a hindrance to shooting fast.

[NorthernHeat]

I found a company selling P2000 V1's on line.



Link?

[Beat Trash]

Here:

http://www.sfarmoryinc.com/product.heckler-koch-p2000-v1-9mm-362-131-modular-synthetic-grip-blue-finish

[MRW]

I have one in .40. It's a handful in that caliber. It does conceal better than the P30 I have. I would invest in the flat base pads too. I also like the LEM in the P2000 over the one in my P30. The trigger pull weight is the same, however I feel the P2000 has less take-up and a more positive reset than the P30. They're both V2's.

[Dagga Boy]

DB.
Is yours the gray guns version that was a steal a while back? How's it compare to you V1s and V2s?

Yep. I was of the same opinion of my TLG LEM P2000 as my favorite AIWB gun followed very closely by the hK45C. They are near perfect AIWB guns to me. The Grayguns variants are awesome. The improvement is not "huge", but it is like a refinement that just makes them right. It essentially takes the "German police & military" reset length out of the gun. They are simply a little more forgiving and refined than the stock versions. I have never spent the "Grayguns" money myself as I always felt ammo was a better spend on the money, but I have numerous Grayguns HK's that I bought second hand, and all are exceptional. Basically, I really enjoy the refinement and they quickly become my favorites of their type.
The new P2000 has seen a ton of dry work while waiting for the range to dry out and it should get a live outing next week. It is sitting next to me as I type this. The second I verify function and sights, it will go in the carry rotation. I head out to Lake Havasu in a couple weeks and it should see a ton of carry there.

[Beat Trash]

To create a TLG LEM P2000, is it easier to start out with a V1 or a V2? Or does it really matter?

Am I correct in that the difference is in what springs are in the gun?

[NorthernHeat]

Here:

http://www.sfarmoryinc.com/product.heckler-koch-p2000-v1-9mm-362-131-modular-synthetic-grip-blue-finish

Thank you sir

[imp1295]

Without experience switching TRS and/or a tool/"the tool I think it's easier to go from a V2 to a TLG.

Changing Hammer Spring and Trigger Block Spring was simple for me with just a punch and armorer's block.

Other's might feel differently though. I need to figure out how to switch out the TRS myself soon. Right of passage and all that.

[Salamander]

A P2000 LEM has been my primary carry for the past three years, and I'm very happy with it. Actually three of them, one P2000 in 9mm for most of the time, and one P2000 in .357 Sig for a woods gun, plus a P2000sk in 9mm for the occasional harder to conceal situations. The latter two get much less use. All of mine are set up as V4, I like the stronger reset. Most of my mags are flat base plate, and the extended mag release is helpful and is on all three pistols.

I'll probably never dump my gen 2 G19, but it's less compelling in a 10-round limit state. The 10 round HK mags, like everything else about the P2000, are totally reliable. The only stoppage I've ever had among the three HK's was due to bad ammo, a visibly mis-formed WWB bullet that didn't feed. I also find the P2000 to be a little more accurate than a G19. Finally, the P2000 just fits my hand better.

[RAM Engineer]

What is everyone doing for sights on their P2000s? I like a fiber optic front and a u-notch rear and lack of sights in that configuration is all that's kept me from buying one.

[Crusader8207]

I'm using Trijicon HDs and really like them. In fact, I have the HDs on all of my HKs (5 of them).

[NorthernHeat]

I have a P30 LEM v1 right now.

Can anybody tell me what the biggest differences between the P2000 LEM I am looking at and the P30 LEM v1 I have now would be?

As far as shooting impressions, ease of carry ETC

Both in 9mm

[imp1295]

This is only an example of one, me - a mediocre shooter.

P30 vs P2000

P30 easier to reload (mag release larger and magwell extends below my grip on the pistol (of my hand)
P30 With my grip, I'm less likely to induce a failure to lock back due to grip. But, I've since adjusted my grip on both (sort of a flying thumbs grip)
P30 My follow up shots are about .10-.15 faster
P30 More sight options (Heinie, 10-8, etc)

P2000 is easier to conceal for me (shorting grip - once I replace the mag floorplates with the flat ones instead of the finger rest ones)
P2000 less coarse grip side panels more forgiving when not wearing an undershirt than the P30 spidey grip.
P2000 Mags don't dig into my ribs in the spare mag pouch like the longer P30 mags do
P2000 transition to slack/take-up less pronounced than my P30


Hope this helps - I'm 5'8", 173 and short of short wasted...

[NorthernHeat]

That does help a lot.

Thank you sir.

[hufnagel]

(*might* be shooting myself in the perverbial foot here...)

there's 2 reasons why I'm letting mine go...
1) got it because LEM. turns out, i'm not a LEM guy
2) when I run the gun at speed, during reloads I've gotten a really NASTY mag well bite several times. maybe it's the geometry of my hands, I don't know. I DO know it hurts like unholy hell and takes a couple days to go away when it happens.

YMMV
IANAL
SAR
ISAAHI

[JTQ]

2) when I run the gun at speed, during reloads I've gotten a really NASTY mag well bite several times. maybe it's the geometry of my hands, I don't know. I DO know it hurts like unholy hell and takes a couple days to go away when it happens.

I certainly can see that as being a problem. Do G19 guys have the same problem? It seems as if they would.

[YVK]

I certainly can see that as being a problem. Do G19 guys have the same problem? It seems as if they would.

It is originally known as a Glock 19 palm bite. Every single short grip gun I have or had does that. G19, P2000SK, SIG 228, CZ P-01, Beretta 92 Compact. The only solution is a use of full sized mags for reloads.

[SecondsCount]

My reload mag for the P2000 is a P30 mag . No pinching since. :)

[hufnagel]

I certainly can see that as being a problem. Do G19 guys have the same problem? It seems as if they would.

It's really weird. P30 doesn't do it. P2000SK with 10/13/15 rnd mags doesn't do it. Only the P2000 with the stock 13rnd mags do it, and with either the flush or finger plates. And, it only happens if I run it at full speed. If i'm casual/not caring with my reloads it doesn't happen. Only when I actually CARE about reloading does it do it.

[GJM]

What are folks running for sights on their P2000 pistols? I have a few .40's and they regulate with Trijicon classic three dot sights. I have a P2000 9 LEM with HD sights, and it hits low at 25 yards. Not sure if it is something about the HD heights or 9 mm needing a shorter front sight than the .40's. Looking at the Trijicon website, the dimensions seem equivalent on the classic and HD sights.

[YVK]

Have Jojo's shave front sights on your HD sets to whatever is feasible. Got me to POA/POI with my SK.


If I were to quit HKs for Glocks, it would be solely for the reason of pain of getting the sights set up exactly the way I want them.

[imp1295]

Sighting options was a concern for me too. I've since had a sub-dermal implant to alleviate the knife-like slashes from the HD rear sight. [emoji13]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Sighting options was a concern for me too. I've since had a sub-dermal implant to alleviate the knife-like slashes from the HD rear sight. [emoji13]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Is the P2000 rear HD sight sharp? The Glock one sure is but I don't recall the P300 rear HD being too bad.

[Irelander]

Dang you guys. Now I have to get a P2000 to see what all the hubbub is about!

[ralph]

That's the only thing that's bummed me out about the P-2000. The lack of aftermarket sights for it. IMO the P2K is about the perfect size, and yet, all this time after it's introduction sight selection is dismal, at best. I've never understood why.. On mine, (LEM gun) I just went with a set of Meps they're the same as the sights that came on it, and the POA/POI is the same..

[GJM]

This thread caused me to pull out my P2000 LEM .40 and DA/SA 9. Just been shooting 25 yard 3x5 groups and 7 yard dots. They are fantastic little pistols, and shoot great, if you are willing to shoot them at HK speed. Seems like things get ugly when you push speed.

New proposed marketing slogan. HK P2000, for the man who demands quality, and doesn't own a shot timer.

[CCT125US]

New proposed marketing slogan. HK P2000, for the man who demands quality, and doesn't own a shot timer.

Rumor has it I may be acquiring one shortly. I will definitely be putting it on the timer. Going from P30 v3 to LEM has been fun.

[GJM]

Rumor has it I may be acquiring one shortly. I will definitely be putting it on the timer. Going from P30 v3 to LEM has been fun.

I am just messin' with the HK fan boys.

While I prefer the lighter First LEM shot, I prefer SA for the follow-up shots.

[Dagga Boy]

This thread caused me to pull out my P2000 LEM .40 and DA/SA 9. Just been shooting 25 yard 3x5 groups and 7 yard dots. They are fantastic little pistols, and shoot great, if you are willing to shoot them at HK speed. Seems like things get ugly when you push speed.

New proposed marketing slogan. HK P2000, for the man who demands quality, and doesn't own a shot timer.

You know you can just say "nyeti" and quit beating around the bush...;)

Reality.....they are not miracle shooting guns. You are not going to slay Rogers with one. You will not do well in USPSA. There are better "shooting" guns. They ARE a great daily carry pistol for dealing with daily carry and LE type problems. It is a problem solving gun. It is forgiving of errors, great for both pre and post shooting management, great for AIWB, and a good size for a 24/7 365 gun that is mostly carried concealed but also used for training and classes. It is a near perfect undercover LE gun. I really like mine as a travel gun. I also find they conceal well with the flat base plates, but I shoot them better with the extended ones.

The important thing to remember is that the LEM has some very good benefits for some very practical things that are mostly on the gun handling part of the equation.....that will come with some extra working on the marksmanship and shooting side of the equation that will need some dedicated work.

[CCT125US]

I am just messin' with the HK fan boys.

While I prefer the lighter First LEM shot, I prefer SA for the follow-up shots.

I spent many rounds with the v3. But I do like the LEM, the transition has been easy.

[GJM]

Darryl, after perusing the "getting old" thread, I may send a USP Compact .40 back to the HK mothership for them to install most of a DA/SA match trigger and a thumb safety, for use when I start wearing a belt and suspenders.

[SecondsCount]

I am just messin' with the HK fan boys.

While I prefer the lighter First LEM shot, I prefer SA for the follow-up shots.

No fanboy here. Just a happy with the quality, accuracy, and reliability of a basically stock pistol. If I wanted a good trigger I would go back to a 1911. :cool:

[GJM]

Speaking of good triggers, the physical trigger on the P2000 doesn't win any awards in my book. The trigger is quite thin, sharp and upturned at the bottom. The Sig 320 trigger is a marvel by comparison. Wish somebody made a good aftermarket trigger for the P2000.

[Dagga Boy]

Darryl, after perusing the "getting old" thread, I may send a USP Compact .40 back to the HK mothership for them to install most of a DA/SA match trigger and a thumb safety, for use when I start wearing a belt and suspenders.

Sending guns to HK is not "getting old" material. I spent the evening in my big leather man chair making a work list for Frank Glenn on a couple of S serial number model 28's......THAT is what old people do.

[LSP972]

Sending guns to HK is not "getting old" material. I spent the evening in my big leather man chair making a work list for Frank Glenn on a couple of S serial number model 28's......THAT is what old people do.

Indeed.

"Shooting at HK speed..." That's funny. I am now demoralized, because my splits are several hundredths of a second slower with that dastardly old LEM trigger. That's gonna kill me on the street, but hey... nobody lives forever, right?

What this thread has made ME do is dust off my two USP Compacts; one in .40, one in .380 Long Rifle. I've been carrying the .40 for the past couple of days, and shooting the 9mm. I loves me my HK45 Compacts, but the USPc grip fits me the best of all the HK service pistols. And it certainly carries nicely.

What DB said about the P2000 also applies to the USPc; its a good general-purpose carry piece that may not be the best at some things, but is excellent in everything that matters in regards to personal defense/concealed carry; without the attendant re-holstering concerns present with a striker gun.

.

[LSP972]

No fanboy here. Just a happy with the quality, accuracy, and reliability of a basically stock pistol. If I wanted a good trigger I would go back to a 1911. :cool:

And that sums it up nicely. Well stated.

.

[Wayne Dobbs]

One day, we may possibly stumble over the truth about confronting, controlling and "ballistically processing" offenders in the streets and the fact that shot splits aren't even in the top five of factors that determine success in those actions. The very best SWAT team in the country works around a split time of 0.5 seconds for controlled pairs and has advanced that anything much faster that that is either a miss and/or a poorly assessed shot.

Please for God sakes, don't launch off on a rant/tangent, but there is a metric shit load of difference between shooting a match and processing a deadly threat so that the deadly force response is only deadly to the guy getting shot and NOT others on the scene. Rule 4 is completely handled on a range or at a match (with a few obvious tragic exceptions) and is therefore not on most shooters' minds. In the street, it is completely monstrous in its importance. That LEM trigger is great for handling those real world problems.

[Dagga Boy]

As GJM and I have discussed in the past, people need to understand the it's called the "Law Enforcement Modification" for a reason and is optimized for solving if "law enforcement" type problems. If people are realistic about that they will be happy. If they are looking for other attributes, you may be disappointed and frustrated. The key is that it wasn't like HK was lying to you with what it is.

Personally, I find I shoot a good LEM trigger about 10% slower in general than a good striker trigger on drills where I can put a numerical estimate on things. If I crush a trigger on the Glock or similar I get a low left shot. With the LEM if I mismanage the trigger I string vertically. You just need to understand it is a different trigger and requires different attention to it.

[Irelander]

I am pretty new to HK pistols so bear with me. The P2000 has the decocker button beside the hammer. Is that button removed when using the LEM system?

[GJM]

The "no free lunch" theorem says that that triggers that are better at not shooting yourself and others unintentionally, are harder to shoot things with intentionally.

[GJM]

Perhaps better for another thread, another time, but I think a reasonable argument can be made for an HK DA/SA trigger as a preferable fighting trigger over LEM for a more experienced shooter, with the caveat that you DO have to decock.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The "no free lunch" theorem says that that triggers that are better at not shooting yourself and others unintentionally, are harder to shoot things with intentionally.

Perhaps to a certain extent, but in reality most folks don't notice the difference in trigger pull weights of a few pounds difference in actual street use. The LEM just feels like a longer Glock (stock) pull weight to me.

[Dagga Boy]

I am pretty new to HK pistols so bear with me. The P2000 has the decocker button beside the hammer. Is that button removed when using the LEM system?

Yes. H&K doesn't endorse doing LEM conversions on these. They are certainly doable and it just leaves a small gap in the back of the slide area. Not a big deal for most folks. Some places will do a LEM that will retain the button and also decock.....I just don't know why.

[LSP972]

One day, we may possibly stumble over the truth about confronting, controlling and "ballistically processing" offenders in the streets and the fact that shot splits aren't even in the top five of factors that determine success in those actions.

...there is a metric shit load of difference between shooting a match and processing a deadly threat so that the deadly force response is only deadly to the guy getting shot and NOT others on the scene.

Precisely. My reference to splits was heavy on sarcasm; perhaps that didn't come across too well.

.

[Dagga Boy]

The "no free lunch" theorem says that that triggers that are better at not shooting yourself and others unintentionally, are harder to shoot things with intentionally.


Perhaps better for another thread, another time, but I think a reasonable argument can be made for an HK DA/SA trigger as a preferable fighting trigger over LEM for a more experienced shooter, with the caveat that you DO have to decock.

George, I absolutely agree with both statements. The key is "experienced" shooters. This is a different person than an experienced cop, most people who carry a pistol for self defense, and the well over 90% of the gun owning public with almost no training what so ever and have atrocious gun handling skills that mirrors their atrocious marksmanship skills.

I look at the LEM as something that has the pre and post shooting simplicity of a striker gun, with the carry fail safes of a DA gun and a trigger that is more forgiving of stupid and not not as forgiving of press mistakes.

I could probably sum this up that the P2000 LEM is likely the right pistol for 90% of the typical pistol carrier and they just don't know it. The 10% of those who can really manage and take advantage of a short striker trigger are the same people who can also run the LEM well, but not to their maximum performance. Then there are the DA/SA guru's......they tend to be able to run anything well.

[HCM]

As GJM and I have discussed in the past, people need to understand the it's called the "Law Enforcement Modification" for a reason and is optimized for solving if "law enforcement" type problems. If people are realistic about that they will be happy. If they are looking for other attributes, you may be disappointed and frustrated. The key is that it wasn't like HK was lying to you with what it is.

Personally, I find I shoot a good LEM trigger about 10% slower in general than a good striker trigger on drills where I can put a numerical estimate on things. If I crush a trigger on the Glock or similar I get a low left shot. With the LEM if I mismanage the trigger I string vertically. You just need to understand it is a different trigger and requires different attention to it.

Along these lines, I think comparing the LEM to striker fired triggers is misleading. The LEM was developed as an improvement on / replacement for "long pull" revolver type DAO triggers. In the case of my Agency the LEM v2 replaced Beretta 96Ds and SIG P229 DAOs.

[GJM]

Refresh me on the history of the P2000. Another PF member, SteveB, and I each bought one as soon as they came out. At least that is my recollection, and they are very low serial numbers. I still have both those pistols. They are .40 and LEM.

Did the P2000 start as a .40 LEM and the DA/SA and 9 came later? I also remember the P30, when it first came out in 9 and DA/SA. I was puzzled then -- who would want DA/SA or 9mm? :)

[HCM]

Refresh me on the history of the P2000. Another PF member, SteveB, and I each bought one as soon as they came out. At least that is my recollection, and they are very low serial numbers. I still have both those pistols. They are .40 and LEM.

Did the P2000 start as a .40 LEM and the DA/SA and 9 came later? I also remember the P30, when it first came out in 9 and DA/SA. I was puzzled then -- who would want DA/SA or 9mm? :)

The first P2000 I was aware of was a 9mm DA/SA. The first LEM's I know of were the U.S. INS guns, USPC 40s with V2 LEM. They began issuing them in late 1998 or early 1999 to plainclothes officers in lieu of the 96D Brigadier. Our firearms guys claimed LEM was developed for the U.S. INS but given the long take up I suspect it was developed for German police trials which specify a minimum trigger pull length of travel.

[TGS]

I agree with nyeti that the LEM is probably one of the best trigger systems for 90% of gun handlers. Probably me, included. The post-event is important as well, as not many shooters practice a hard-break and decock with DA/SA as ritualistically as they should.

Even during the event, like movement, the LEM has a big advantage...you're probably not taking a hard break in between movement from point A to point B, and very well might forget to decock with a DA/SA. While I seem to be okay with taking a hard-break after a drill, I have caught myself not decocking prior to movement. This is especially true with doing WHO during the Blaze-X drill, as I'm prioritizing movement and will transfer to SHO and decock on the move instead of waiting to move. At more mentally challenging drills like the figure 8 drill that Todd runs in classes where you have to count shots as well, I found decocking to add to the mental complexity. All said and done, it still isn't a huge issue to me. There's no appreciable difference as it relates to safety between a cocked TDA pistol and a light Glock, VP9 or PPQ.

The one thing about the P2000 I've always wondered is why the v3 TDA has a 12lbs DA pull, but the v5 DAO has an 8lbs DAO pull. It'd be pretty sweet to get that 8lbs DAO pull. I've always wondered if HK had a DAK-like setup in the v5's for their European market.

How do you guys think the DAK stacks up against the LEM for the 90% of gun handlers? The DAK should be easier to get good accurate results with, as it's a true DAO without any wall before the trigger breaks. The downside is the the long reset compared to an LEM. It has always interested me.

Count me as one of the people who are sad to see the industry overwhelmingly move towards SFA. TDA was never even all that bad, but it does take competent instruction compared to a SFA. Systems like the DAK and LEM are a real gem, and agencies are really losing out by not considering them.

/endramble.

[CCT125US]

- who would want DA/SA or 9mm? :)

Some people just like to bring the popcorn and watch the world burn.


Even during the event, like movement, the LEM has a big advantage...you're probably not taking a hard break in between movement from point A to point B, and very well might forget to decock with a DA/SA. While I seem to be okay with taking a hard-break after a drill, I have caught myself not decocking prior to movement. This is especially true with doing WHO during the Blaze-X drill, as I'm prioritizing movement and will transfer to SHO and decock on the move instead of waiting to move. At more mentally challenging drills like the figure 8 drill that Todd runs in classes where you have to count shots as well, I found decocking to add to the mental complexity.

USPSA style stages, and drills like Mike Pannone's Mad half minute brought this to light. I found myself doing the hard break then decock then run = slow. But maybe I just needed to practice more with the v3.

[Irelander]

I always like this story from nyeti regarding the LEM. Good stuff.



The L.E.M.:
I like the L.E.M. Here is why. It is a consistent trigger. It has all of the take up of the DA, without the weight and effort. The trigger goes back to the same long take up location when the finger comes off the trigger. Essentially, it is like de-cocking without having to use a de-cocker, just a simple removal of the finger from the trigger to its register location. Lots of take up and both tactile feel that the trigger finger is on the trigger, AND a visual input from the hammer. That same visual and tactile input is also there during the reset and every other movement of the trigger-you can always see the hammer moving with the trigger. The negative, is there is a lot of trigger movement going on. This is an issue when pure speed is the goal. It is not an issue when you have to think and justify every single movement of the trigger when employing the gun against people. All that tactile and visual trigger input is a good thing for most people, and gives them a chance to “stop” when something is going on that should not be. I think the best example of what I like about the L.E.M can be summed up with a L.E.M shooting that involved one of my guys.
The officer was working evenings in patrol. He got a call of a domestic disturbance at a 7/11. When he arrived, the male suspect had left walking from the location down a wide main, residential and business, street that intersected the major thoroughfare that the 7/11 was on. The suspect was walking along the sidewalk opposite the flow of traffic carrying a box. The officer drove his marked cruiser up behind the suspect the wrong way in traffic in the #2 lane (closest to the sidewalk) with his window down and attempted to contact the young man. He took off running down the sidewalk and began digging in the box he was holding while the officer pursued in the car. The officer got the indication that the suspect may be trying to obtain a weapon and began to draw his HK USP45F LEM pistol. The suspect began to withdraw a 6” barreled .357 magnum revolver. The officer (while steering with his knee) drew his pistol, rotated it over and around the steering wheel as a guide (exactly as taught from the ITTS curriculum on vehicle work) so he never crossed his own body, got a two handed grip coming out the window. The suspect began to turn while still running and leveled the revolver at the officer. The officer planted the sights squarely on the center of the upper body and made a controlled single press of the trigger. The round hit dead center, and the suspect skidded face first into the pavement of the sidewalk “like the rhino in the 300 movie” (exact words of the officer-we had great success with the Federal 230 gr. +P HST). The officer now had to regain control and stop his vehicle, call for assistance, holster, get out of the car, draw and regain control of the pistol and hold the suspect at gun point with a flashlight until help could arrive, while continuing to provide verbal information using his support hand to operate his radio, then holster again, after securing the suspect.
THAT is how this stuff happens. How many opportunities to maybe get a finger on the trigger early? Think about having to get a safety off during the draw while making a force decision and driving a vehicle with your knee? Think about having to consciously trying to de-cock or safe the pistol, while regaining control of that vehicle one handed , while you now have to safely holster at speed. Now thinking about exiting that vehicle and starting all over again with the stress and multi-tasking post shooting. The LEM allows that officer to simply exercise the most basic of putting his finger on the trigger and off the trigger with no other action necessary, AND there is some significant leeway built into that trigger for small errors due to distraction or other actions. If we look at the “shooting” part of the above problem, it was fairly simple and a very small portion of the equation, where the mindset and manipulations issues were huge.

[JDB]

Nyeti, GJM:

What is the difference between a light V1 LEM trigger pull vs the single action pull of a DA/SA (like a P30 V3)? Is there a difference in required reset? All things equal, can the SA pull of a DA/SA P30 always be lighter?

I have a TLG P30, and a stock DA/SA V3 P30. I understand the LEM trigger will go all the way forward (but reset distance is shorter), but haven't measured the actual reset distance of that vs the V3 P30 to see if it is the same or not.


As to your question about why have a V0 P30 (decocking LEM)...I can see the appeal. I'm very happy with a LEM, but like the ideal of being able to decock the gun when I take the gun off for the day (that much harder for a kid to pull the trigger, if god forbid I screw up and he gets a hold of it).
Also, I really like having a DA/SA gun around just for skill development. I figure if you can shoot a DA/SA HK, the Beretta M9 is gravy.

[TGS]

Some people just like to bring the popcorn and watch the world burn.



USPSA style stages, and drills like Mike Pannone's Mad half minute brought this to light. I found myself doing the hard break then decock then run = slow. But maybe I just needed to practice more with the v3.

Maybe. It doesn't seem to be an issue for me in similar movement drills like the 15x15, 153, Double Diamond or Blaze-X unless I'm coming from a WHO string, or I'm in a more mentally taxing drill. Of course, I actually haven't timed myself using a SFA or DAO in such drills, so I don't know...but at the same time, after a certain level of competency the majority of the time is probably coming from movement itself.

It definitely requires some attention though. I went shooting with a LEO buddy last weekend, who is one of the few gun guys in his field office. He can max his agencies qual and was the only one in his class to max the FLETC qual, and shoots an intermediate FAST. So, not a seriously awesome shooter but he's what we would generally consider a competent dude. We had a private 25 yard outdoor bay to ourselves, so I setup the 15x15 and Blaze-X, and he had significant trouble with decocking before moving. Decocking after WHO strings were abysmal, as it became very apparent he wasn't used to handling his P229r in adverse conditions. The decocking part alone was enough of a problem to score him a 40s+ Blaze-X. He commented that what we had done that day was probably more training, and higher quality than all of the people in his FO had done combined in the last two years. They're so overworked right now that people being out of qual is common...he himself was out of qual for 2 weeks. Hopefully the drills were an eye-opener and when he gets a random hour to spend at the range he works on more variable drills instead of just plinking.

As much as I love TDA, it was obvious to me that most would be better served by a DAO than a TDA....especially since he represents the top end for an agency that gets significantly more initial training than most LEOs.

[Kevin B.]

I am not sure that the ability/inability to decock WHO is a good basis for evaluating a trigger system. Also, while I can see where a TDA pistol like a SIG would present an issue, especially for someone who does not routinely practice decocking WHO, I suspect it would be less of an issue with a TDA pistol with an ambidextrous decocking mechanism like a Beretta.

[TGS]

I am not sure that the ability/inability to decock WHO is a good basis for evaluating a trigger system. Also, while I can see where a TDA pistol like a SIG would present an issue, especially for someone who does not routinely practice decocking WHO, I suspect it would be less of an issue with a TDA pistol with an ambidextrous decocking mechanism like a Beretta.

If you're responding to me, please reread the following:


This is especially true with doing WHO during the Blaze-X drill, as I'm prioritizing movement and will transfer to SHO and decock on the move instead of waiting to move.

[GJM]

I am not sure that the ability/inability to decock WHO is a good basis for evaluating a trigger system. Also, while I can see where a TDA pistol like a SIG would present an issue, especially for someone who does not routinely practice decocking WHO, I suspect it would be less of an issue with a TDA pistol with an ambidextrous decocking mechanism like a Beretta.

I don't like using "never," but what is a reason someone would need to quickly decock a DA/SA pistol, support hand only? Would they then need to quickly holster, support hand only. And, if there was such a reason, why not decock essentially the same way you would with a SA revolver, or those shooting DA/SA guns without a deccocker do in USPSA Production starting a stage. Alternatively, use your left hand thumb, as I do with a Sig.

[Kevin B.]

TGS,

I read what you wrote but expressed myself poorly. What I shoud have said was that outside of something like the Blaze-X drill, I fail too see the utility needing to decock at speed when shooting WHO. Decock before moving? Yes. Decock WHO? Yes. When doing both? Yes. But not to the extent that an extra second or two to decock (regardless of how it was accomplished) would be a major issue.

I ran a TDA gun exclusively for well over a decade and I never found decocking to be a major issue.

[LSP972]

The LEM was developed as an improvement on / replacement for "long pull" revolver type DAO triggers.

Actually, it was developed as a replacement for HK's first attempt at a DAO trigger, the V7; which was horrible. And that's being kind. After the original V7's exposure to the market for a while and practically non-existent sales, they snapped to the fact that there was a problem and went back to the drawing board.

There are still a few of those original V7s floating around out there. I've seen two; a USPc .45, and a USPf .40. New potential LEM buyers need to be alert for them. You'll give yourself a hernia shooting a Bill Drill with one.

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[LSP972]

I ran a TDA gun exclusively for well over a decade and I never found decocking to be a major issue.

Its not… if you train for it and frequently reinforce that training. Even the Walther-type safety/decocker, as found on the Beretta and S&Ws, is no big deal using your off hand thumb. Sigs are a piece of cake, even for those who insist on using the strong hand thumb (which is less than efficient, but some folks…); for lefties; use your trigger finger.

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[TGS]

TGS,

I read what you wrote but expressed myself poorly. What I shoud have said was that outside of something like the Blaze-X drill, I fail too see the utility needing to decock at speed when shooting WHO. Decock before moving? Yes. Decock WHO? Yes. When doing both? Yes. But not to the extent that an extra second or two to decock (regardless of how it was accomplished) would be a major issue.

I ran a TDA gun exclusively for well over a decade and I never found decocking to be a major issue.

Why do you think I'm making it out to be a major issue? I even wrote it wasnt...twice.

Still, it's something that is a consideration and needs to be trained. It's something that a human can screw up, whether due to mediocre training or due to being mentally overwhelmed. Its something that isn't even a consideration with an LEM, which is an advantage to an LEM. The entire point of my post was to relate to nyeti's opinion that the LEM is optimized for simplicity in pre- and post shooting events.

[LSP972]

Still, it's something that is a consideration and needs to be trained.

Indeed. The only training ND (at least, the only one resulting in an injury) that occurred on my watch was from an un-decocked P226 being re-holstered in a SafariLand 200 duty holster.

You're right, the LEM removes that issue. And the long take-up, so feared by many, really provides a safety cushion for those who simply will NOT keep their finger off the trigger at inappropriate times, and/or "trigger check" their piece under stress.

.

[Kevin B.]

Why do you think I'm making it out to be a major issue? I even wrote it wasnt...twice.

This part of your post left me with a different impression:


The decocking part alone was enough of a problem to score him a 40s+ Blaze-X.

But, since you said it wasn't...twice, I guess it was not a major issue.

[LSP972]

How do you guys think the DAK stacks up against the LEM for the 90% of gun handlers? The DAK should be easier to get good accurate results with, as it's a true DAO without any wall before the trigger breaks. The downside is the the long reset compared to an LEM. It has always interested me.



I think the DAK sucks large. It has a DOUBLE reset; IOW, you can stop forward trigger movement at the first click (about half the distance of a full reset, or about the same distance as a P-series LEM) and shoot again… but the pull is quite noticeably heavier here than if you allow the trigger to go all the way forward to full reset. I find that simply bizarre.

When I retired and went work as a range rat for the local sheriff's office, they had just begun issuing P226R's with the DAK trigger, so I had to learn it quickly. I was able to "run" it quite well, after a fashion; but it took quite a bit of effort on my part. Give me a TDA Sig any day of the week; and twice on Sundays.;)

.

[TGS]

Kevin,

What's your problem dude?

Why are you trying to create arguments for no purpose?

If you have any actual reading comprehension level, which I'm sure you do, it should be clear that he is an example of mediocre training and its impact on running a TDA weapon....which I wrote about.

So unless you're dense, the obvious answer is that you're needlessly cherry picking words to create arguments. A big indicator is that after multiple posts, I'm not even arguing against the ideas your purporting about TDA, and regardless you just keep pulling stuff from my posts and using out of context to try and create an argument.

[Kevin B.]

Relax. I am not looking for an arguement.

Your post gave me the impression that you considered decocking to be some sort of impediment. I did not cherry pick from your post. I quoted the portion of your post that gave me the impression.

Obviously, I was mistaken.

[LSP552]

I think the DAK sucks large. It has a DOUBLE reset; IOW, you can stop forward trigger movement at the first click (about half the distance of a full reset, or about the same distance as a P-series LEM) and shoot again… but the pull is quite noticeably heavier here than if you allow the trigger to go all the way forward to full reset. I find that simply bizarre.

When I retired and went work as a range rat for the local sheriff's office, they had just begun issuing P226R's with the DAK trigger, so I had to learn it quickly. I was able to "run" it quite well, after a fashion; but it took quite a bit of effort on my part. Give me a TDA Sig any day of the week; and twice on Sundays.;)

.

DAK sucks all of the goodness right out a P series SIG.

[LSP972]

DAK sucks all of the goodness right out a P series SIG.

Weren't they trying to shove that abortion down our throats for quite some time? I remember hearing Todd griping about it.

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[LSP552]

Weren't they trying to shove that abortion down our throats for quite some time? I remember hearing Todd griping about it.

.

Yes, a clueless former firearms unit supervisor who has since soared to great heights was leading that charge. Fortunately, there were still enough shooters with influence around to sink that.

[LSP552]

Perhaps better for another thread, another time, but I think a reasonable argument can be made for an HK DA/SA trigger as a preferable fighting trigger over LEM for a more experienced shooter, with the caveat that you DO have to decock.

I'm not sure I would agree about the HK DA/SA being preferred. My experience is limited primarily to 2 gun; a 45c and a P30 so consider this a small sample size warning. I've also dry fired a decent number of various HK TDAs. I've NEVER done so and found a DA trigger anywhere near what a normal SIG TDA has. The .45c is owned by my stepson and I've put a fair number of rounds down range through it. The trigger on that gun is unworkable even by an experienced shooter. I consider myself a fair hand with a TDA and the ONLY way I'd carry that gun would be cocked and locked or LEM.

Having said that, and adding to the thread drift, I do see another place for the LEM in addition to the law enforcement role. I'm thinking the LEM would made a pretty decent old man gun. The LEM is easy to work for someone with compromised hand strength and does give a margin of error above the striker fired alternatives to plastic pistols.

[LSP972]

... a clueless former firearms unit supervisor who has since soared to great heights...

Ah, yes; had forgotten about that one. I'm very glad I was totally out of the game by that time.

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[LSP972]

. I'm thinking the LEM would made a pretty decent old man gun.

Yes! For the past week or so, I have been carrying and shooting my USP Compacts instead of the HK45C. While the .40 is just as obnoxious, recoil-wise, as the bigger-bullet gun, the 9mm example is a delight. Of course, I make "downloads" in .45 and .40 for practice, and while some say that is a bad practice because when you have to shoot the "real" ammunition the stark difference in recoil and blast will be quite disconcerting, I never found it to be a problem. Until now. Because... getting old.

In the USPc 9mm, I shoot ball-duplication reloads, so when I switch to the "serious" stuff, the transition is seamless (how's that for a cool tactical word??? ;) ). Plus, the shorter trigger reach of the sub-caliber pistol is making a difference in controlling recoil shot-to-shot at speed. IOW, this is causing me to re-evaluate my entire program. While those Bowie G19s are a bit smaller and lighter overall, the added security of the hammer and LEM trigger on the USPc give me great peace of mind. The only drawback is that the issue sights on the USPc are very difficult for me to see. I've been on this horse before with these pistols, but its time to re-examine it.

Anyway... I think I'll leave the Glocks in the safe, for that hopefully-never-to-arrive time when collateral damage doesn't matter anymore...;)

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[JTQ]

LSP552 wrote,
I'm thinking the LEM would made a pretty decent old man gun...does give a margin of error above the striker fired alternatives to plastic pistols.
About two pages into this thread, I was thinking similar thoughts, and began posts two or three times, but I couldn't really think of how to word it. I think this is a good description.

I've got no HK or LEM experience, but while it was designed for law enforcement, it does seem like a logical tool for the home owner, as the pre and post shooting gun handling/safety may be a little safer and simpler than many other options. I suspect an adrenaline rush would make trigger limitations practically imperceptible.

[Crusader8207]

I find myself carrying my P2000 or P2000SK most days. It is by far one of my favorite guns to shoot and carry. I have even introduced it to two other guys at work who both ended up buying them as well. BTW, if anyone is in need of magazines, CDNN has the 13 round magazines with flat base plates for $24.00 each (which is an awesome deal).

[Dagga Boy]

About two pages into this thread, I was thinking similar thoughts, and began posts two or three times, but I couldn't really think of how to word it. I think this is a good description.

I've got no HK or LEM experience, but while it was designed for law enforcement, it does seem like a logical tool for the home owner, as the pre and post shooting gun handling/safety may be a little safer and simpler than many other options. I suspect an adrenaline rush would make trigger limitations practically imperceptible.

My arthritis is what started me on the LEM road. During my work career I started with a SIG P-220 (and shot a P-226 as my "gamer gun" in LE competition), then the USP .45 and finished using the USP.45 as my assigned SWAT gun and a G-17 as my patrol gun. The taxpayers spent a lot of money on my practice schedule as I shot a half million rounds of .45 ACP between the SIG and USP's. Most of that was on the double/single pairs. Between that and my love of big bore snubs, I have ruined my hands.....but I could shoot a DA/SA transition like it was "normal". After I retired I carried a pair of Hk45C's like appendages both as protection guns and working EP jobs. If was everything I needed in a magazine ban state and where I had to have a pistol with a mechanical safety. As others have stated, the DA on the HK45C is not like a worked SIG. I was not a big LEM fan, because "I" could shoot a DA/SA gun. When I got hurt at work and eventually retired, my replacement was an HK fanboy like me, but loved the LEM and put them into our SWAT. After seeing the benefits, feeling the guns (and yes I had to work through the "this was not my idea, so it sucks phase) when the team started using them, and eventually seeing what Todd G and others were able to do with them, I realized that it was the trigger I needed to relieve the pain and difficulty of shooting with my now very compromised hand strength and arthritis pain.

As others have noted I carry VP-9. I co-own a shooting school, and I have certain expectations of my shooting abilities.....I "shoot" a VP-9 better than just about anything. I also no longer carry striker guns AIWB. I do have a LEM gun bedside, use a LEM gun for a deep concealment pistol, and still use a LEM gun for AIWB carry and often as travel guns, especially into ban states. The LEM is essentially my "old man with broken and weak hands" gun. While I am more comfortable shooting a VP-9 than anything else out there, I am more comfortable carrying a LEM gun than anything else out there. Luckily, I have a choice of very high quality, highly accurate, and disturbingly reliable pistols to choose from depending on what my priority is.

[LSP972]

BTW, if anyone is in need of magazines, CDNN has the 13 round magazines with flat base plates for $24.00 each (which is an awesome deal).


Indeed it is; just ordered some. Thanks for the heads-up.

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[Crusader8207]

Indeed it is; just ordered some. Thanks for the heads-up.

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You are welcome.

[GJM]

I think the HK timer troll was darn funny, which I launched after consultation with YVK. I was checking to see if Darryl was awake, and ended up snagging Wayne, one or more of the Boudreaux guys (can't keep each LSP straight), CCT, and TGS. Somehow I missed Jody.

I am one of the biggest HK fan boys ever, but I just don't like to admit to it because it isn't cool.

[LSP552]

I think the HK timer troll was darn funny, which I launched after consultation with YVK. I was checking to see if Darryl was awake, and ended up snagging Wayne, one or more of the Boudreaux guys (can't keep each LSP straight), CCT, and TGS. Somehow I missed Jody.

I am one of the biggest HK fan boys ever, but I just don't like to admit to it because it isn't cool.

I thought HK was hipster cool!

I'm the tall one.:p. LSP972 is the one with T-Rex arms.

[JBP55]

I thought HK was hipster cool!

I'm the tall one.:p. LSP972 is the one with T-Rex arms.


:) :) :)

[LSP972]

Damn, dude… nothing like outing an old comrade, eh???:cool:

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[NorthernHeat]

BTW, if anyone is in need of magazines, CDNN has the 13 round magazines with flat base plates for $24.00 each (which is an awesome deal).

Do you happen to have a link sir?

[SkiDevil]

Do you happen to have a link sir?

http://www.cdnnsports.com/magazines/usp9-comp-p2000-9-le-flat.html#.VaDrR5rn9J9

[NorthernHeat]

http://www.cdnnsports.com/magazines/usp9-comp-p2000-9-le-flat.html#.VaDrR5rn9J9

Thank you!

[Chuck Whitlock]

You know you can just say "nyeti" and quit beating around the bush...;)

Reality.....they are not miracle shooting guns. You are not going to slay Rogers with one. You will not do well in USPSA. There are better "shooting" guns. They ARE a great daily carry pistol for dealing with daily carry and LE type problems. It is a problem solving gun. It is forgiving of errors, great for both pre and post shooting management, great for AIWB, and a good size for a 24/7 365 gun that is mostly carried concealed but also used for training and classes. It is a near perfect undercover LE gun. I really like mine as a travel gun. I also find they conceal well with the flat base plates, but I shoot them better with the extended ones.

The important thing to remember is that the LEM has some very good benefits for some very practical things that are mostly on the gun handling part of the equation.....that will come with some extra working on the marksmanship and shooting side of the equation that will need some dedicated work.

Nyeti,
How is the LEM for those with short fingers? For reference, on a Glock, my register position is on the takedown lever. The only one I've handled was an LEM P2KSK in .40 in a pawnshop, and the trigger reach felt fairly long, but I don't know what size backstrap was installed. I also shot a border patrol exemplar at FLETC, but it was amongst a slew of other guns and I didn't pay particular attention to it at the time.





In the USPc 9mm, I shoot ball-duplication reloads, so when I switch to the "serious" stuff, the transition is seamless (how's that for a cool tactical word??? ;) ). Plus, the shorter trigger reach of the sub-caliber pistol is making a difference in controlling recoil shot-to-shot at speed. IOW, this is causing me to re-evaluate my entire program. While those Bowie G19s are a bit smaller and lighter overall, the added security of the hammer and LEM trigger on the USPc give me great peace of mind. The only drawback is that the issue sights on the USPc are very difficult for me to see. I've been on this horse before with these pistols, but its time to re-examine it.

Here ya go:
https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product2_hdns.php?mid=9

[LSP972]

Here ya go:
https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product2_hdns.php?mid=9

Thanks. I need to find out if they are like the Glock offerings; i.e., "taller" than the standard sights. No problem with the rear, but my kydex IWB holsters are so closely molded, my G19 with those HDs drags a bit on the front sight coming in and out of the holster.

.

[LSP972]

BTW, Chuck, the LEM is fine for those of us with short fingers. While the initial reach is long, there is a lot of slack to take up before you hit the break point. If you have access to a V1 USPf/USPc/HK45/HK45C, the LEM reach, where it counts, is the same as a V1 with the hammer cocked.

And of course, when shooting multiple shots, you only release the trigger far enough to hit that break point. Its not like a DAK or other "double action only" type trigger where you have to release it the full length of the stroke each time.

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[Dagga Boy]

You can cater the grip to your finger reach. I use small on my P30's, but on both the P2000 and VP9 I go to a medium. A p2000 with a small backstrap should have no finger reach issues.

[GJM]

Actually, I think LEM is better for short fingers than DA/SA, as the initial take up is so light compared to DA, that finger placement is less critical on LEM. With a heavy DA trigger, you need to grip the pistol in such a way as to be able to work the heavy DA trigger.

As Darryl has said, I think LEM is ideal for someone looking for a long travel Glock, in terms of operation.

I personally prefer DA/SA. I like that the DA press is linear, which while a smidge slower than LEM, provides me great control and therefore, accuracy. I also like that the DA trigger is about twice the weight of LEM, which I think is helpful from the "not shooting things you do not want to shoot" perspective. Finally, I shoot better with SA than LEM, once you get to the shooting part. My technique is to flip and press, and with LEM that results in extra trigger travel that I find undesirable. As to decocking, I routinely shoot DA/SA pistols, so decocking is perfectly natural. And, if today was the day I went brain dead, and tried to holster a SA P2000, how is that worse off than holstering a Glock every day? All this adds up to DA/SA being a clear winner for me, based on my experience and the way I shoot.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Thanks for the responses. I'm going to have to haunt the next large gun show and see just what is available to coonfinger. I just can't afford a lot of buy & try. Also thinking of the new gen2 Sig P250, as the issues are supposed to be ironed out.

[BCL]

I personally prefer DA/SA. I like that the DA press is linear, which while a smidge slower than LEM, provides me great control and therefore, accuracy. I also like that the DA trigger is about twice the weight of LEM, which I think is helpful from the "not shooting things you do not want to shoot" perspective. Finally, I shoot better with SA than LEM, once you get to the shooting part...As to decocking, I routinely shoot DA/SA pistols, so decocking is perfectly natural.

This mirrors my thoughts on DA/SA vs LEM exactly, but explained better than I would explain it.

[JDB]

I personally prefer DA/SA. I like that the DA press is linear, which while a smidge slower than LEM, provides me great control and therefore, accuracy. I also like that the DA trigger is about twice the weight of LEM, which I think is helpful from the "not shooting things you do not want to shoot" perspective. Finally, I shoot better with SA than LEM, once you get to the shooting part. My technique is to flip and press, and with LEM that results in extra trigger travel that I find undesirable. As to decocking, I routinely shoot DA/SA pistols, so decocking is perfectly natural. And, if today was the day I went brain dead, and tried to holster a SA P2000, how is that worse off than holstering a Glock every day? All this adds up to DA/SA being a clear winner for me, based on my experience and the way I shoot.

aha, flip and press: that's what I've beens trying to figure out...why the LEM was harder to shoot well for some than the SA trigger on HKs.
I haven't shot them enough side by side to really know the difference in performance. I was thinking there was maybe a difference in required reset distance between a light LEM and a SA trigger. Didn't occur to me than a flip and press shooter was letting the trigger out much farther.

Thanks

[LSP972]

My technique is to flip and press, and with LEM that results in extra trigger travel that I find undesirable.

So, if you're shooting, say, a USP V1, your finger is coming completely off the trigger between presses?

.

[GJM]

So, if you're shooting, say, a USP V1, your finger is coming completely off the trigger between presses?

.

Yes, on a pistol with a trigger guard the size of a P2000, I often hit the inside front of the trigger guard with my "flip."

[LSP972]

It obviously works for you, and others, and you even tried to 'splain it to me once.

But I'll be damned if I can understand how that is conducive to good shooting. Yeah, no doubt you find the LEM distasteful.

Anyway, no drama or criticism here, just mild curiousity. Thanks.

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[JodyH]

My technique is to flip and press,

Yeah, no doubt you find the LEM distasteful.
My thoughts exactly.
LEM is a continuous motion, continuous contact trigger.
"Booger flicking" doesn't work nearly as well with LEM's as it does Glocks, 1911's, or the SA part of a DA/SA trigger.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

In case anyone was on the fence about picking up a P2000, HK dropped the prices on them earlier this year. They aren't quite Glock prices, but they're quite a bit cheaper than they used to be.

[LSP972]

My thoughts exactly.
"Booger flicking"...

That one nearly cost me a nice shirt; good thing I already had my lab coat on.

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[NorthernHeat]

Well I got a P2000 LEM V2 to start working with.

Now to order another JMCK appendix rig and wait a couple days for the pistol.

[GJM]

Just now, I handled a NIB P2000 9 and .40, both DA/SA. Observations on the sights. The .40 has stock OEM sights, and a visual inspection shows the rear sight to be deflected slightly right. The 9 has OEM night sights, and the rear sight is deflected slightly left. No worries for me, as I always zero to my eyes and have a sight tool, but folks shouldn't accept that the sights are perfectly centered, even if it is an HK.

[CCT125US]

I was gifted a P2000 V2 and so far I am liking it very much. I work the trigger in one continuous motion but the wall on the v2 is imperceptible. I can see how the v1 could lead to anticipation issues. I have about 6200 through my P30 v1 and so far the P2K v2 runs very similar for me. Even with 3 dot Trijicons, performance is very similar.

[YVK]

I work the trigger in one continuous motion but the wall on the v2 is imperceptible. I can see how the v1 could lead to anticipation issues.

I always thought it was the other way around, V2 having the heavier break of the two?

[JodyH]

I always thought it was the other way around, V2 having the heavier break of the two?
The break on the LEM is primarily determined by the hammer spring.
The take-up is determined by the trigger spring and the firing pin block spring.
The V1 has a lighter take-up and a more pronounced wall at a very slightly lighter break than the V2.
The V2 has a slightly heavier break and a heavier take-up but the "wall" between the take-up and the break isn't as pronounced.
I find the V2 to be easier to shoot at speed due to the less pronounced ramp up in weight just before the break.
That's how they feel to my finger anyway.

[CCT125US]

As I was measuring JodyH was typing.

P30v1 stock springs:
initial take up = 1lb 4oz
break / wall = 5lbs 8oz

P2000 v2 stock springs as far as I know:
take up just short of wall: 4lbs 5oz
stack to break point: 6lb 5oz

So the v2 is "heavier" but not as defined, relative to the take up. Or what Jody said.

[YVK]

Here are my measurements, done awhile ago with an NRA weight set (gives a range but not a specific number):

- my P30L gun, which is a game gun, has a light trs and 10 lbs hs; takeup about 1.5 lbs, break under 4 lbs, additional "wall" 2.5 lbs.

- my 2 P30s, dry fire and live fire guns, heavy trs - standard (I think 14 lbs) hs; takeup 3 lbs, break 6.7-7 lbs, additional "wall" 3.7-4 lbs.

All of that might mean nothing in the live fire and V1 doesn't utilize the 10 lbs hs, but I personally feel the least wall perception with lightest hs.

2 out 3 are Grayguns, this may influence the numbers.

[JodyH]

When you knock 4# off the hammer spring of course the wall and break will be 4# closer to the take-up weight, hence less perceptible.
All the wall is is the delta of the take-up (trs) and the break (hs) with a little fpb spring thrown in.

[YVK]

When you knock 4# off the hammer spring of course the wall and break will be 4# closer to the take-up...

...and, in an entirely different direction, that 10 lbs spring so far hasn't failed to ignite a single US made factory round, or Magtech, or Aguila. Out of several thousand fired. Considering that it gives the lightest and most linear pull, and with added safety of a hammer and a long pull, I am that close to use it for carry. Reset does suffer a bit but that is a lesser concern on Grayguns.

[Dagga Boy]

Actually, I think LEM is better for short fingers than DA/SA, as the initial take up is so light compared to DA, that finger placement is less critical on LEM. With a heavy DA trigger, you need to grip the pistol in such a way as to be able to work the heavy DA trigger.

As Darryl has said, I think LEM is ideal for someone looking for a long travel Glock, in terms of operation.

I personally prefer DA/SA. I like that the DA press is linear, which while a smidge slower than LEM, provides me great control and therefore, accuracy. I also like that the DA trigger is about twice the weight of LEM, which I think is helpful from the "not shooting things you do not want to shoot" perspective. Finally, I shoot better with SA than LEM, once you get to the shooting part. My technique is to flip and press, and with LEM that results in extra trigger travel that I find undesirable. As to decocking, I routinely shoot DA/SA pistols, so decocking is perfectly natural. And, if today was the day I went brain dead, and tried to holster a SA P2000, how is that worse off than holstering a Glock every day? All this adds up to DA/SA being a clear winner for me, based on my experience and the way I shoot.

I want to add sort of a disagreement here based on pointing a crap load of guns at people, being around tons of people pointing guns at other people and investigating lots of cases of both good things and bad things happening in that process. I actually feel the LEM is better for people management. I had to work with it awhile to be able to define why. The difference is movement versus momentum. The LEM is simply almost unweighted movement. The DA/SA requires a build up of momentum on the initial shot. I find it very easy to get off a LEM trigger during the press. It is simple finger movement,mand the finger is fairly relaxed and should not be tense. With a DA you are building momentum to counter the weight.

Shooting wise,the momentum build I think helps when you understand and train to run it. The unweighted movement of the LEM is where the issue comes in for learning to shoot them. Most folks get to the end of the unweighted movement and figure they are done and then essentially fire with a bunch of slack still in the trigger. The key is after the movement and as soon as you get into the working parts, now you have to take the slack out and press. It can be mastered, but it is learned, and requires some training.

Hope this makes sense.

[Beat Trash]

Ok, granted I spent the last 10 days or so working in preparation for and working during the All Star game, so my brain is fried. But measuring various springs within the gun and then the concept of mixing and matching said springs, well guys, you've lost me.

Nyeti,

If I were wanting to buy a P2000 LEM for carrying on my own time, would you recommend the V1 or the V2?

[NorthernHeat]

Picked up the P2000 today and was a dry fire machine while riding passenger while driving around the metroplex running errands.

Initial thoughts:
-Size is perfect (right around G19 size)
-The V2 trigger slack/take up/ break is a lot smoooooooother from one stage to another when compared to the V1 P30 I have already. I assume this is because the trigger weight is a little heavier and the initial take up is not as light as the P30 V1
-I have Medium size hands but short fingers and the LEM trigger reach is no problem at all
-Mag release paddles are small but I don't mind that as I am always paranoid that the mag has popped out when using typical push button mag releases (especially in a duty holster when shifting around in a vehicle)
-I like the Medium sized back strap just fine but the Small will be used for now as it gives me all the comfort the Medium does but a little easier trigger reach
-Working dry firing with the gun at the house (working on press outs and other drills) the gun pointed very naturally
-VERY much like that it does not have the "valley" below the trigger like on the P30
*-I like the grip on the P2000 almost as much (if not as much) as the grip on the P30. This surprised me because I feel the P30 is famous for its comfortable and customizable grip. I have found that the P2000 having a more rectangle grip allows me to get a better hold on the gun while the P30 grip being comfortable, shifts around in my hand when shooting. I think this is because the grip is more rounded than squared/rectangle.

I already ordered a couple flat base plates from Midway but they are on backorder.

More to come but I am very impressed in the oh so long DAY I have had it:cool:

[LSP972]

-VERY much like that it does not have the "valley" below the trigger like on the P30


Yes. I ground that trough down on both of my P30s; it really eats the tip of my trigger finger up. OTOH, my wife shoots a pair of them in .40, and the trough doesn't bother her at all.

.

[JodyH]

...and, in an entirely different direction, that 10 lbs spring so far hasn't failed to ignite a single US made factory round, or Magtech, or Aguila. Out of several thousand fired. Considering that it gives the lightest and most linear pull, and with added safety of a hammer and a long pull, I am that close to use it for carry. Reset does suffer a bit but that is a lesser concern on Grayguns.
If I wanted light and linear I'd just buy a Sig 320 or get out my VP9.
I like and want the characteristics of the V2 LEM on my carry pistol.

[YVK]

Maybe, when 320 comes out with a thumb safety. I don't do regular striker guns in aiwb.
Even then I'd probably prefer hammer and long pull over thumb safety.

[Dagga Boy]

Ok, granted I spent the last 10 days or so working in preparation for and working during the All Star game, so my brain is fried. But measuring various springs within the gun and then the concept of mixing and matching said springs, well guys, you've lost me.

Nyeti,

If I were wanting to buy a P2000 LEM for carrying on my own time, would you recommend the V1 or the V2?

I prefer the TLG LEM, essentially a V1 LEM with a V2 trigger return spring. Option two is simply a V1. What I recommend is to get a V2 to learn the LEM and then change the easy springs to the TLG set up. That is how I learned the LEM and it seemed to be a good route.

What I have found personally over the last few years since dumping the Glock for Hk exclusively is that the P30 that I originally left the Glock for (and what I really learned the LEM on) have become orphans and don't see much daylight. The VP9 is much easier to shoot and is a fantastic service,training, and carry pistol in the same size range. The P2000 and P2000Sk have filled the role as AIWB guns and deep concealment pistols (essentially, when I am carrying a single pistol as discretely as possible) and replaced the P30's. My daily carry is a VP9 and an M&P 340 as a BUG. I am pretty religious about that combo anytime I leave the house in my vehicle. Since Ferguson, I have also gotten back to my old cop habit of driving with a very easily accesable gun in the car (currently a S&W PC 327).
If I am walking the dog, getting the mail, fishing on the golf course, etc within the walls of where I live, I am good with a snub revolver.

At this stage in life, I could probably get away with any of the above as a single primary carry gun and adjust my lifestyle to it. Kind of finding a happy place with my "real" carry gear has allowed me to focus on messing around with my "happy" guns that I am really passionate about which are my older revolvers.

[LSP972]

...old cop habit of driving with a very easily accesable gun in the car (currently a S&W PC 327).
.

You dog. I have come so close to shelling out for one of those on several occasions, because it is perfect for that task.

But its a bit difficult to drop over a grand on another "snubby magnum" for a car gun, when my home-brew contraption is doing exemplary duty... a beater M-66 SB that I put a 2" M-64 barrel on. The two extra rounds would be nice, though...

.

[Beat Trash]

Nyeti,

Thanks...

[OnionsAndDragons]

I think I'm buying one today. The fun store has a used in the case, only one mag but at $325 I think I can live with that.

Internals looked like it was fired some, but not extensively. Was definitely a daily carry piece, as the slide looks well loved.

Is there a marking to tell which V it is? It is LEM, and from you guys descriptions I'd say V1, but I only finger banged it for a few minutes before I asked the guts to hold it for me til the end of the day.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mike C]

You need to run to the store because that is a steal @ $325. Variant is usually on the side of the box on a white sticker or printed on the front of the box on the top of the carrying handle. The V1 will have an almost sluggish reset if you do a flip and press. If you are allowed to disassemble it you could tell by the springs. If you field strip it and look down in the frame if the trigger return spring is thick and squared its probably V2, thin and round is usually V1.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Cool.

Yeah, it is just the gun and one mag, one extra strap. No box or HK goodies, which is partly why it's so low.

I've bought a few used guns from them, so they were cool when I asked them to hold it for me til I could run home and grab some cash. Also want to check the mag compatibility with the P30 mags... But I'll likely buy it even if it is an older incompatible model.

Guess I need to look at some springs... :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TGS]

Cool.

Yeah, it is just the gun and one mag, one extra strap. No box or HK goodies, which is partly why it's so low.

I've bought a few used guns from them, so they were cool when I asked them to hold it for me til I could run home and grab some cash. Also want to check the mag compatibility with the P30 mags... But I'll likely buy it even if it is an older incompatible model.

Guess I need to look at some springs... :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What older model is incompatible with P30 mags? Even the very first GPM imported models were changed out to US frames.

[OnionsAndDragons]

TGS,

No clue, I just read on the HK forum that some might not be. I'm not that worried about it since I'm taking a mag in to try it, and it will obviously work if their info was erroneous. Thanks for lookin out, though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JodyH]

I have a P2000 from the year 2000 and it takes the same magazines as my 2010 P2000.

[Dagga Boy]

You dog. I have come so close to shelling out for one of those on several occasions, because it is perfect for that task.

But its a bit difficult to drop over a grand on another "snubby magnum" for a car gun, when my home-brew contraption is doing exemplary duty... a beater M-66 SB that I put a 2" M-64 barrel on. The two extra rounds would be nice, though...

.

I was originally using a snub 627, and really fought getting the 327 as "unnecessary". I was wrong. The 327 due to its weight and size exactly fits the role I am using it for. I really love the thing.

[GJM]

I was originally using a snub 627, and really fought getting the 327 as "unnecessary". I was wrong. The 327 due to its weight and size exactly fits the role I am using it for. I really love the thing.

Out of curiosity, other than romance, why would a snubbie short barrel .357 be better in that role than a P2000 DA/SA 9, that holds more rounds, costs less, shares magazines with your other HK pistols, and likely has better terminal performance?

[Dagga Boy]

Out of curiosity, other than romance, why would a snubbie short barrel .357 be better in that role than a P2000 DA/SA 9, that holds more rounds, costs less, shares magazines with your other HK pistols, and likely has better terminal performance?

Contact shots, blows glass, I am more comfortable with a revolver not in a holster than an auto, the feeding device cannot separate from the gun. I am sure Craig has a ton more experience than me, but the times I have been in fights inside cars....is a very unique situation and the 327 just seemed perfect for the role from my limited experience and how things have gone for me in both in car, and half in/ half out exchanges.

The 327 snuck up on me more than any other gun I have owned as finding it incredibly useful for lots of things when I really saw no use for it. Weirdly, the 327 has essentially filled all the roles I used to use a P7 for. It just conceals differently,but in all the same places.

[OnionsAndDragons]

You need to run to the store because that is a steal @ $325. Variant is usually on the side of the box on a white sticker or printed on the front of the box on the top of the carrying handle. The V1 will have an almost sluggish reset if you do a flip and press. If you are allowed to disassemble it you could tell by the springs. If you field strip it and look down in the frame if the trigger return spring is thick and squared its probably V2, thin and round is usually V1.


Just got her home!

It has the V2 squared TRS, but I'm wholly unsure if it is a V2 or a V1 w a V2 TRS. It has a very light take up with a little stacking about 2-3mm before the wall and then a nice clean break. I don't have a gauge, so I can only compare it to something similar. The break feels like a lighter version of my Glocks, which are set up with polished - connectors and the NY1 spring.

This is my first real experience with a LEM trigger, and I really like how it feels. The trigger is very much like my PPQ, with the long light take up and a good break. A little more take up, and just a bit heavier at the wall. It feels almost ideal for carry.

I really appreciate all you guys' help here. This forum is so great!

I have a feeling this is going to cost me a lot more money down the road...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GJM]

If that trigger feels like a PPQ, I would take it back, 'cause it ain't an HK.

[GJM]

Contact shots, blows glass, I am more comfortable with a revolver not in a holster than an auto, the feeding device cannot separate from the gun. I am sure Craig has a ton more experience than me, but the times I have been in fights inside cars....is a very unique situation and the 327 just seemed perfect for the role from my limited experience and how things have gone for me in both in car, and half in/ half out exchanges.

The 327 snuck up on me more than any other gun I have owned as finding it incredibly useful for lots of things when I really saw no use for it. Weirdly, the 327 has essentially filled all the roles I used to use a P7 for. It just conceals differently,but in all the same places.

Darryl, you are more creative than I am. I coon-fingered the shorty 327 a number of times, lusted over it, couldn't conjure up a plausible argument for it, and instead bought a five inch.

You have more revolvers than Carter has pills. You sure you didn't misunderstand your investor adviser. He said "Darry, I recommend stocks and bonds," and you heard "recommend Smith and Wesson?"

[CCT125US]

If that trigger feels like a PPQ, I would take it back, 'cause it ain't an HK.

I actually have a P30 v3 somewhere that has a great DA pull. Similar to a tuned revolver. Throws me off everytime I dry fire it,
the thing just isn't right. One gets used to dragging a boat anchor through a brick yard after awhile.

[TGS]

If that trigger feels like a PPQ, I would take it back, 'cause it ain't an HK.

I have a Gray Guns worked P2000, and even that doesn't feel as nice as a PPQ....

[Dagga Boy]

Darryl, you are more creative than I am. I coon-fingered the shorty 327 a number of times, lusted over it, couldn't conjure up a plausible argument for it, and instead bought a five inch.

You have more revolvers than Carter has pills. You sure you didn't misunderstand your investor adviser. He said "Darry, I recommend stocks and bonds," and you heard "recommend Smith and Wesson?"

The 327 snub is a city gun. The 5" is for you outdoorsy types. Actually, the Investor revolvers are instead of gold. It is a good hedge when my Chevron stock is off.

[Beat Trash]

Ok, I had to google the S&W 327. (Yes I'm embarrassed to admit that!) If you are talking about the 8 shot 327 Night Guard, then I could see where that would make an outstanding car gun. Not to mention that if weapon retention were an issue, holding onto a full size revolver grip while a suspect has his palm around the end of that 2.5" barrel kind of puts the advantage on my side.

Plus I just like the way it looks!

[OnionsAndDragons]

If that trigger feels like a PPQ, I would take it back, 'cause it ain't an HK.

Hah!

I was trying to express how I felt the trigger; long, smooth and light take up, just a little stacking followed by a pretty clean wall and break. It isn't as light as the PPQ, I'd say a good 1-1.5# heavier at the break (just a guesstimate), but it is really smooth and clean.

I don't have any previous LEM experience, but if this is any indicator, I think I'm likely to try out more.

Maybe it has had work done on it? Don't know, but I'll strip it and check everything out tomorrow after work.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LSP972]

TGS,

No clue, I just read on the HK forum that some might not be.

HKPro is not the 100% dependable information source it once was. The VP9 has brought the hoi polloi out of the woodwork; the place is looking more and more like GlockTalk every day.

.

[LSP972]

Darryl, you are more creative than I am.

Creative has nothing to do with it. He's talking about the difference between getting off ONE shot in close confines, versus getting off however many the cylinder holds; along with the other things he mentioned.

.

[LSP972]

If you are talking about the 8 shot 327 Night Guard...

I think he's talking about this:


http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764974_-1_757767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

That's what _I_ am talking about. That puppy is tailor made for a car gun.

.

[Cincinnatus]

Cool.

Yeah, it is just the gun and one mag, one extra strap. No box or HK goodies, which is partly why it's so low.

I've bought a few used guns from them, so they were cool when I asked them to hold it for me til I could run home and grab some cash. Also want to check the mag compatibility with the P30 mags... But I'll likely buy it even if it is an older incompatible model.

Guess I need to look at some springs... :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What older model is incompatible with P30 mags? Even the very first GPM imported models were changed out to US frames.

O and D, perhaps you are thinking of the Walther P99 and how its earlier model mags are not compatible with the PPQ, whereas later P99 mags are?

[GJM]

Creative has nothing to do with it. He's talking about the difference between getting off ONE shot in close confines, versus getting off however many the cylinder holds; along with the other things he mentioned..

No I get the inside the car contact shot, the creative part was Darryl becoming an Uber driver, just so he could justify a special configuration that he wanted.

What size backstraps are people using? YVK, aka "the Midget," has been touting the largest possible backstrap on his P30. I started with the L, but have now been dry firing with the XL and it feels good to me.

[Beat Trash]

I think he's talking about this:


http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764974_-1_757767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

That's what _I_ am talking about. That puppy is tailor made for a car gun.

.

Woo....

[YVK]

no i get the inside the car contact shot, the creative part was darryl becoming an uber driver, just so he could justify a special configuration that he wanted.


lol. Lolololololol.

[Patrin]

No I get the inside the car contact shot, the creative part was Darryl becoming an Uber driver, just so he could justify a special configuration that he wanted.

Being new here, I'm not sure who Darryl is, but that right there is hella funny.

[GJM]

What is interesting, is with the new pricing, the P2000 is a great value. $689 from Top Gun Supply with night sights and three magazines. I blacked out the rear sights with a Sharpie, painted the front size orange, and it is a complete, ready to go pistol. Would cost more to get a Glock set up, between sights and the other stuff I do. The P2000 DA trigger is a great dry fire trainer, almost Captain of Crunch.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_0378%201_zpsrnka81rc.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_0378%201_zpsrnka81rc.jpg.html)

[Dagga Boy]

What's uber......is that something on that Facebook thing..:confused:.

You guys will never get the importance of a car gun until you have a handful of extensions trying to keep a tranny hooker from touching your man parts with her mouth in a crappy motel while a bunch of crackheads are banging on the car window yelling "a white guy is robbing Shaniqua"......:cool:. Yeah, my first arrest working Vice was an eye opener to what the next year was going to be like.

[TheNewbie]

GJM what is the DA trigger like on the P2000?

I had a V2 LEM P2000 but couldn't use the trigger for more than slow fire. The light take up and the "wall" before the break threw me off.

[TGS]

What size backstraps are people using? YVK, aka "the Midget," has been touting the largest possible backstrap on his P30. I started with the L, but have now been dry firing with the XL and it feels good to me.

I used the medium. The apex of the bump on the large is too pointy. I use a "pinch" grip as Vogel describes it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45QhpvY9LZc), and in doing so the pointy hump of the large backstrap creates an uncomfortable pressure point in my palm.

I also took an XL and shaved it down so that it was roughly equal to a medium, but kept all the mass up top. I did this to increase surface area, as a USPc feels more secure to me than my P2000....but it didn't produce any quantitative differences in performance.


GJM what is the DA trigger like on the P2000?

I had a V2 LEM P2000 but couldn't use the trigger for more than slow fire. The light take up and the "wall" before the break threw me off.

I'm not GJM, but I do own a DA/SA P2000.

The DA is completely serviceable. It's a longer and heavier pull than a SIG P229, but after a thousand rounds and definitely after 2000 rounds, it smooths out. After such a break in, mine did not have any grittiness or any attributes that would hinder my shooting. It was definitely NOT in the category of a SIGMA, if that's any comparison.

After 12,000 rounds, I sent it to Gray Guns. The DA is smoother. The DA is a little lighter, but most of the improvement was in the SA. I've had no difference in shooting results, either accuracy or time wise, between pre and post Gray Guns. IMO, the stock trigger is completely serviceable, and sending it to Gray Guns was nice but not something I'd do again given the expense.

If you were comparing the trigger against a Beretta, the feel of the HK is a wet potato chip. The Beretta feels like its on ball bearings and has the same feedback/pleasure of driving a Lotus. The HK is like driving a mid-90s Chevy which drifts across the road inexplicably even though the wheel didn't move. There's just something so much more enjoyable about metal-on-metal trigger components, as opposed to plastic-on-metal....even if one doesn't actually shoot any better than the other.

[GJM]

I'm not GJM, but I do own a DA/SA P2000.

The DA is completely serviceable. It's a longer and heavier pull than a SIG P229, but after a thousand rounds and definitely after 2000 rounds, it smooths out. After such a break in, mine did not have any grittiness or any attributes that would hinder my shooting.

I agree with his description of a stock DA/SA P2000 trigger, and its comparison to a trigger like on a Beretta. I think trying to make a HK trigger into a Beretta or CZ is a fool's game. Accept and learn to shoot it stock or buy something different. A couple of days ago, I sent a P2000 to The Sig Armorer to see if I was wowed, but the more I dry fire the stock trigger, the more satisfied I am with it. It isn't a Beretta or CZ and isn't going to be one. The HK has other excellent attributes, and if they don't offset the minus in the trigger department, it is the wrong gun for someone.

PS: I think the Vogel grip is great for a very strong guy shooting a light recoiling gun like a 34, but not so good for smaller individuals or shooting .40, 10mm and .45 Super.

[TGS]

PS: I think the Vogel grip is great for a very strong guy shooting a light recoiling gun like a 34, but not so good for smaller individuals or shooting .40, 10mm and .45 Super.

My grip has always been my weakest link, so I'd be interested in hearing more about this....whether through PM or if you want to start another thread.

[NorthernHeat]

Do P30 15rd mags work in the p2000?

[Mike C]

Do P30 15rd mags work in the p2000?

Yes

[TGS]

Do P30 15rd mags work in the p2000?

There is mag compatability between the P30, USPc, P2000, P2000sk, and P30sk (though the P30sk has a different baseplate.....easy to modify).

You can also use the German Police Model 16 round mags in the P2000 as well, with a 2 minute mod using a knife. I carried my P2000 using the GPM mags while I lived in Virginia.

[NorthernHeat]

Great, thank yall!

[TheNewbie]

Thanks TGS and GJM.

As one who stills drives a 95 GMC truck ( I hate the idea of car payments) I can appreciate the analogy. The P2000 is my perfect gun in theory, and I would like to make it so in practice.

[LSP972]

... the creative part was Darryl becoming an Uber driver...

Okay, I give up.

What's a Uber driver???

.

[GJM]

My grip has always been my weakest link, so I'd be interested in hearing more about this....whether through PM or if you want to start another thread.

Short version. My wife and I trained with Robert in a full day tutorial. Adopted the grip, and shot it for a year, which seemed like a fair shake. Noticed issues shooting .40/10mm, with our hands separating. Lots of discussion ensued with other GM USPSA shooters. Transitioned back to a more conventional grip, and have better control with heavier calibers. Haven't seen the Vogel grip adopted by many beyond Robert.

[LSP972]

Okay, I give up.

What's a Uber driver???

.

That was a genuine request for information, BTW. But I guess you're ignoring me. And yeah, I could Google it. But several times here, I have Googled a term or phrase that I wasn't familiar with, and the definition it provided was NOT the same context it was used in on the forum here, I later discovered.

Anyway… whatever.

.

[JDM]

That was a genuine request for information, BTW. But I guess you're ignoring me. And yeah, I could Google it. But several times here, I have Googled a term or phrase that I wasn't familiar with, and the definition it provided was NOT the same context it was used in on the forum here, I later discovered.

Anyway… whatever.

.

Uber is an Internet taxi service. One downloads and app to their phone, and from that app can request a ride. The "taxi" drivers are regular people in their POVs.

Recently, an Uber driver was involved in a self defense shooting if I'm recalling the news correctly.

[Dagga Boy]

Uber is an Internet taxi service. One downloads and app to their phone, and from that app can request a ride. The "taxi" drivers are regular people in their POVs.

Recently, an Uber driver was involved in a self defense shooting if I'm recalling the news correctly.

Okay.......so you tell Facebook you need a ride, and it sends someone who is not an immigrant from a place that hates Americans to pick you up in there own car. As my kid would say "that's weird".

[JDM]

Okay.......so you tell Facebook you need a ride, and it sends someone who is not an immigrant from a place that hates Americans to pick you up in there own car. As my kid would say "that's weird".

It is weird, but often quite useful.

There are some problems, for example, normally, auto insurance generally doesn't cover commercial use of the vehicle insured. Thus, if an Uber driver wrecks and fucks you up, it is my impression you're on your own.

With that said, the cars are always newish, clean, and the rides are substantially cheaper than a traditional taxi.

Now then, I am done derailing this thread. If further discussion is warranted I'll split these off into a new thread.

[GJM]

That was a genuine request for information, BTW. But I guess you're ignoring me. And yeah, I could Google it. But several times here, I have Googled a term or phrase that I wasn't familiar with, and the definition it provided was NOT the same context it was used in on the forum here, I later discovered.

Anyway… whatever.

.


Okay.......so you tell Facebook you need a ride, and it sends someone who is not an immigrant from a place that hates Americans to pick you up in there own car. As my kid would say "that's weird".

LSP, Darryl has it nailed. Now if I were to call Uber, it would be unusual. If the driver turned up, and it was Darryl, it would be extra unusual. I set a calendar reminder to poke (that is another Facebook concept) Darryl once a day to keep him well rounded -- otherwise he wouldn't leave the revolver sub forum.

[LSP972]

Thanks all; I had no idea that existed.

On the one hand, perhaps I should pay more attention to the world in general, so's I can keep up.

On the other hand… naaahhh, I'm good.

.

[CCT125US]

At the risk of keeping this thread on topic... I mentioned I had recently been gifted a P2000 V2, and have been comparing it to my P30 V1. I need to look at the comparison chart in regards to spring weights, but obviously the v2 has the heavy TRS. I don't know if I read it here or came up with it on my own, probably the former, but according to the timer the v2 is resetting faster. It may have to do with slide length or honeymoon phase, but it certainly cycles differently. To test it out, I installed a heavy TRS into my P30. Which by the way, the heavy was much easier to install than a standard. It just annoys the crap out of me that after all the rounds I have through P30s, I shoot this so close. I am also exploring the ergos of the P30 vs the slab sided P2000 in regards to steering feedback, and I know I have read that here.

[GJM]

At the risk of keeping this thread on topic... I mentioned I had recently been gifted a P2000 V2, and have been comparing it to my P30 V1. I need to look at the comparison chart in regards to spring weights, but obviously the v2 has the heavy TRS. I don't know if I read it here or came up with it on my own, probably the former, but according to the timer the v2 is resetting faster. It may have to do with slide length or honeymoon phase, but it certainly cycles differently. To test it out, I installed a heavy TRS into my P30. Which by the way, the heavy was much easier to install than a standard. It just annoys the crap out of me that after all the rounds I have through P30s, I shoot this so close. I am also exploring the ergos of the P30 vs the slab sided P2000 in regards to steering feedback, and I know I have read that here.

Last summer, I did some shooting with a P30 and P2000, both in .40. I felt like I shot the P2000 enough better to matter, which was a surprise as the P30 grip is longer, has more texture, and feels more ergo in my hands.

[YVK]

Ive not put it on a timer and have not shot P2000 enough to be sure of objective differences, but subjectively I noticed nothing different.

[Mike C]

Last summer, I did some shooting with a P30 and P2000, both in .40. I felt like I shot the P2000 enough better to matter, which was a surprise as the P30 grip is longer, has more texture, and feels more ergo in my hands.

GJM, what quantified, "enough better?" In my own personal experience I found the P2000 to track more flat during recoil and was much easier to follow up with as a result though I was running 9mm, does this mirror yours or was it something else?

[psalms144.1]

Last summer, I did some shooting with a P30 and P2000, both in .40. I felt like I shot the P2000 enough better to matter, which was a surprise as the P30 grip is longer, has more texture, and feels more ergo in my hands.I also did a stint of HK only, and shot the P30 and P2000 (both with TLG LEM, both in 9mm) side by side a lot. My experience was that the P2000 shot just as well - with regard to accuracy and splits - as the P30, and better on some drills. No idea why this is, as I agree the P30 FEELS better in my hand than any other pistol, but it doesn't perform as well as the P2000...

[JodyH]

I seem to remember sumdood with a dead animal hat that said the P2000 was better than the P30...

[YVK]

Well, if it so damn awesome, then the one I just picked on a GB, .357 SIG, should have no problem keeping up with my 9mm P30.
Since .357 stopped four out of five bears in the Alaskan chronicles, I am going to call it my "go visit George" gun.

[CCT125US]

Since .357 stopped four out of five bears in the Alaskan chronicles

I'm no mathmagician, but them odds, make me uncomfortable.

[Dagga Boy]

I also did a stint of HK only, and shot the P30 and P2000 (both with TLG LEM, both in 9mm) side by side a lot. My experience was that the P2000 shot just as well - with regard to accuracy and splits - as the P30, and better on some drills. No idea why this is, as I agree the P30 FEELS better in my hand than any other pistol, but it doesn't perform as well as the P2000...


Psssst. If you are running an Hk, a timer is below you. That is some low rent Glock stuff.:confused:;)

[YVK]

I'm no mathmagician, but them odds, make me uncomfortable.

According to the Alaskan Almanac, them odds are the same or better as for any other caliber of any other man-carried boomstick of any size, although the Stingers were not well represented.

[GJM]

GJM, what quantified, "enough better?" In my own personal experience I found the P2000 to track more flat during recoil and was much easier to follow up with as a result though I was running 9mm, does this mirror yours or was it something else?

Not super scientific. Last summer, I decided I wanted to carry a hammer .40 around town in AK, and assumed it would be my P30 .40 LEM. I went to a USPSA match (shot my Beretta), and took the P30 .40 and three boxes of ammo to shoot afterwards. On a lark, I decided to take my P2000 .40, that I have owned for ever, and shoot it to see how much better the P30 was.

As I started shooting a variety of tasks, mostly steel left over from the match, I was surprised to be hitting better with the P2000. I continued to switch between the P30 .40 and P2000 .40, through about 150 rounds, and the P2000 consistently was easier to hit with. I took the P30 home and put in the safe, and strapped on the P2000.

[NorthernHeat]

Just in case anybody is interested, the CDNN P2000 mags with flat floor plate (photo shows) are 19.99 and in stock right now :cool:

http://www.cdnnsports.com/magazines/usp9-comp-p2000-9-le-flat.html#.VbU0d7nbK1v

[YVK]

Did some plate rack testing yesterday and found neither meaningful performance difference nor practical concealment advantages between the P30 and P2000. I can see that P2000 may be more concealable for folks with narrow waists, but for my size 34-36 it doesn't matter.

[imp1295]

Did some plate rack testing yesterday and found neither meaningful performance difference nor practical concealment advantages between the P30 and P2000. I can see that P2000 may be more concealable for folks with narrow waists, but for my size 34-36 it doesn't matter.

This. So, for my extra-sediment build the P2000 and pistols its size conceal better. But,moron a performance perspective I'm better with the P30. LEM is an unforgiving mistress.

[SteveB]

Looking for a fiber optic front sight for a P2000; anyone have an opinion on these?

http://www.hivizsights.com/product/hk2008-c/

[SecondsCount]

I have had one on my P30 for a couple years. It has held up really well but I probably won't do it again. It is wide for what it is and indoors it is really dim. I ended up painting the surrounding face bright orange.

[RAM Engineer]

Looking for a fiber optic front sight for a P2000; anyone have an opinion on these?

http://www.hivizsights.com/product/hk2008-c/

Lack of availability of good fiber optic sight options is one of the reasons I went with a USPc instead of a P2000.

[GJM]

Lack of availability of good fiber optic sight options is one of the reasons I went with a USPc instead of a P2000.

Dawson has a ton of sizes for the USP, do USP sights also fit the dovetail on the USP Compact?

Just now shot a brand new DA/SA P2000 in 9 and .40. The .40 is perfectly regulated but the 9 is low. Not surprising given 9/40 in same gun with same height sights? Others experiencing this with the 9?

[LSP972]

Nope. USPc .40 and 9mm or P2000 .40 and 9mm; with the issue sights or similar Trijicons. I own all four.

And I think- but am not certain- that the USPf rear dovetail is NOT the same as the USPc dovetail.

.

[psalms144.1]

And I think- but am not certain- that the USPf rear dovetail is NOT the same as the USPc dovetail..I believe you are correct, sir. USP & USPC & P2000/P2000sk & P30/HK45/45C/VP9/VP40 are four different dovetails AFAIK

[GJM]

I did an evening session, with my LEM .40, DA/SA .40 and DA/SA 9.

The Wolff 12 pound hammer spring makes the DA very acceptable to me.

I was pleasantly surprised how well the .40 P2000 shoots. Given there is only one round difference between 9 and .40 (13 vs 12) magazine capacity, and how well the .40 shoots, the .40 is a no brainier for me as a smaller carry gun in areas we have larger animals in the west.

[okie john]

Dawson has a ton of sizes for the USP, do USP sights also fit the dovetail on the USP Compact?

Just now shot a brand new DA/SA P2000 in 9 and .40. The .40 is perfectly regulated but the 9 is low. Not surprising given 9/40 in same gun with same height sights? Others experiencing this with the 9?

I've got a USPf in 9mm and a USPf in 45 ACP. The front sights on both guns are the same height. With 230-grain ball ammo, the 45 hits 2-3" below POA at 25 yards and about 9" low at 50. The 9 hits 3" above POA at 25 yards with pretty much everything, and POI is even higher at 50.


Okie John

[GJM]

I have been real low on .45 Super ammo, but just got more in, and decided to confirm zero at 25 yards with my stock USP .45 and Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP .45 Super ammo. I shot fairly quickly, and this is typical of what I had remembered about how this gun/ammo combo shoots.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpsurwr3rug.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpsurwr3rug.jpg.html)

[GJM]

I broke my own rule about HK owners using a timer today, after finishing my USP timer shenanigans.

I really, really enjoy the P2000. My P2000 is stock, except it has Mepro OEM night sights, which I have modified by using a Sharpie on the rear dots, painting the front sight orange, and I switched to a Wolff 12 pound hammer spring. I did a walk back on an 8 inch steel, shooting DA, and didn't run out of one shot hits to 80 yards. I then did 4/5 DA on the 8 inch at 50 yards. Ran a sub 5 FAST, despite a 2.18 second reload. Shot a 2.01 clean Bill drill from 7. Did a pile of one hand shooting. Did 10/10 on draws to a two inch at 7.

My biggest issue is I reload the P2000 like crap. Partly that is familiarity, but I think I need to change to the 45C mag release, as that is slow getting the mag out. Also, it seems easy to screw up the insertion with the P2000 mag. Any thoughts whether a P30 mag would be easier to insert, or other suggestions beyond dry fire?

[CCT125US]

For kicks today I shot a P30v1 with 10-8 Performance RS and Dawson Tritium FS, P2K v2 with Trijicon 3 dot, and P2KSK v2 with stock 3 dots, back to back on the 10-10-10 from concealment (JRC AIWB II) Times and scores for all guns were sub 9 seconds with scores over 94. I was surprised by the equality........ agitated as well.

[CCT125US]

My biggest issue is I reload the P2000 like crap. Partly that is familiarity, but I think I need to change to the 45C mag release
I plan to order two of the .45c releases for this exact reason.

[GJM]

For kicks today I shot a P30v1 with 10-8 Performance RS and Dawson Tritium FS, P2K v2 with Trijicon 3 dot, and P2KSK v2 with stock 3 dots, back to back on the 10-10-10 from concealment (JRC AIWB II) Times and scores for all guns were sub 9 seconds with scores over 94. I was surprised by the equality........ agitated as well.

What mag you reloading the P2000 and SK with? Is the SK enough smaller than the P2000 to make it worth it?

[CCT125US]

What mag you reloading the P2000 and SK with? Is the SK enough smaller than the P2000 to make it worth it?
Standard mag on the P2000. The P2KSK is a niche gun right now, but has promise to be much more. 10 rd on the SK, but I did acquire an X-grip sleeve and a 13 rounder with my SK. I also have v3 SK, but that is on the chopping block.

[imp1295]

I'm a really big fan of the 45c release. Going from the P30 release to the stock P2000 was like playing "Where's Waldo"for me.

[EPF]

For kicks today I shot a P30v1 with 10-8 Performance RS and Dawson Tritium FS, P2K v2 with Trijicon 3 dot, and P2KSK v2 with stock 3 dots, back to back on the 10-10-10 from concealment (JRC AIWB II) Times and scores for all guns were sub 9 seconds with scores over 94. I was surprised by the equality........ agitated as well.

I'd be interested to hear your impressions as far as shoot-ability of the SK. It's one of those guns that looks good on paper when I consider a replacement for my G26. Thanks

[psalms144.1]

My only warning on the 45c paddle release on the P2000 is you MIGHT see issues with the paddle and holster fitment. When I installed the 45c paddle on my P2000, I found I couldn't use one of my kydex OWB holsters anymore, without the tight molding inadvertently engaging the magazine release. Ultimately, NBD, I just shelved that holster and went on to use on of the many others that didn't have this problem. But, check your gear after making the switch.

[GJM]

My only warning on the 45c paddle release on the P2000 is you MIGHT see issues with the paddle and holster fitment. When I installed the 45c paddle on my P2000, I found I couldn't use one of my kydex OWB holsters anymore, without the tight molding inadvertently engaging the magazine release. Ultimately, NBD, I just shelved that holster and went on to use on of the many others that didn't have this problem. But, check your gear after making the switch.

Dremel fix?

Seems like half my Blade Tech holsters need adjustment with the Dremel for me to get a full firing grip.

[RAM Engineer]

I'd be interested to hear your impressions as far as shoot-ability of the SK. It's one of those guns that looks good on paper when I consider a replacement for my G26. Thanks

Also, is there ANY compelling reason to still consider a P2000SK now that the P30SK is available?

[CCT125US]

I'd be interested to hear your impressions as far as shoot-ability of the SK. It's one of those guns that looks good on paper when I consider a replacement for my G26. Thanks
After I get more trigger time on the SK v2 I certainly will.


Also, is there ANY compelling reason to still consider a P2000SK now that the P30SK is available?
Absolutely. Comments have been made as to the preference of the P2000 over the P30. This could also apply to the P2000SK vs P30SK. I can feel how the flat sides could provide more "steering" feedback than the ergos of the P30/SK. We all know that feelings lie....... sometimes. My initial interest in the P30SK was that I could use my preferred sight set up as I have on the P30. After using several different sights over previous months, that became less of a factor in wanting the P30SK.

[GJM]

What is the recommended service integral for the trigger return spring in a DA/SA P2000 and P30?

Are the slim slide stop levers for the P2000 worth $80?

[EricM]

I ran the slim slide stop levers on my P2000SK, I personally liked them but wouldn't try to make the case for value. In case it's useful to anyone here are a few comparison pics I took for another member last year when I was selling off my SK stuff...

http://icedesigns.com/echo0603/pf/080615/l-1.jpg

http://icedesigns.com/echo0603/pf/080615/l-2.jpg

http://icedesigns.com/echo0603/pf/080615/l-3.jpg

[GJM]

Thanks for these pictures. I get a smaller slide stop on the P30, given how large the stock part is, but I don't have an interference problem with the stock P2000 slide stop. Since holsters are molded for the stock parts, not sure you get a thinner carry gun either?

Looking at the mag well on the P2000, it looks and feels less forgiving than the P30 mag well. Has anyone whittled on their P2000mag well to slick up reloads?

[RAM Engineer]

Are the slim slide stop levers for the P2000 worth $80?

Link?

[imp1295]

I've been told they are exceptionally cheaper direct from HK. I bought a pair from a forum member who state he paid $30 directly from HK.

[GJM]

I've been told they are exceptionally cheaper direct from HK. I bought a pair from a forum member who state he paid $30 directly from HK.

thanks. Here is the HKParts link:


http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Slim-Slide-Release-Lever-Set-HK-P2000-P2000SK-HK45-HK45C-203p2388.htm

[Mike C]

HK is much, much cheaper. At one point I was paying $33 a mag for my P30 vs the $45-59 everyone else was charging. Same thing for durable items. Huge difference in cost.

[GJM]

I received the .357 Sig HK barrel from HK Parts for my P2000 .40, and got to shoot it this afternoon. My pistol is zeroed for .40 180 grain loads. I first shot Winchester Ranger 125 bonded at 25 yards, and it grouped well but printed two inches left of POA. I then shot the Hornady XTP 147 grain load, and it was perfect for elevation and windage at 25 yards. The .357 barrel seems quite accurate. I then shot S&B 140 FMJ, and it also hit left, somewhere between the Ranger and the XTP. I had one stoppage with the XTP 147 grain load, but it seemed like a cartridge that was slightly oversized. I then fired another 50 rounds of S&B and 30 rounds of XTP without issue.

My USP C .40 and .45 came back from HK, where I had the LEM triggers removed and quasi match DA/SA triggers installed. HK is very reasonable for this sort of work. Both pistols shoot very accurately at 25 yards.

[Dagga Boy]

I just shot my Gray Guns P2000 at my old PD for the first time and qualified with it on my LEOSA ID. I have not shot a semi auto in months and my performance with the P2000 was inspiring enough that I am carrying it now. While it will not replace my VP9 as a primary pistol, it is going to result in the sale of some P30's and will likely get a lot of carry time.

Shot a ton of pairs and failure drills from the ready at 7 and 10 yards (which is my primary concern on performance) and was very happy.

[Dagga Boy]

Not to let GJM down......no timer...;-).

[GJM]

Remember date a CZ and marry a HK?

This afternoon I went to the range for a CZ specific practice session. Was shooting fine, went to shoot the same array at 35 yards, and was missing the steel. Decided I better paint up a steel and see my hits. My hits were on the right side or just off the steel. Looked at my rear sight (adjustable rear on my newest CZ) and it was floating, moving a half inch back and forth in the dovetail. Fortunately, I had a HK, in this case a P30L, in my gun bag, as I wasn't shooting 45 Super for a whole session.

[HCM]

Remember date a CZ and marry a HK?

This afternoon I went to the range for a CZ specific practice session. Was shooting fine, went to shoot the same array at 35 yards, and was missing the steel. Decided I better paint up a steel and see my hits. My hits were on the right side or just off the steel. Looked at my rear sight (adjustable rear on my newest CZ) and it was floating, moving a half inch back and forth in the dovetail. Fortunately, I had a HK, in this case a P30L, in my gun bag, as I wasn't shooting 45 Super for a whole session.

Not to derail but what CZ ?

[GJM]

Not to derail but what CZ ?

The one you are looking at.

[HCM]

The one you are looking at.

That's what I was afraid of ..,:(

[Dagga Boy]

Yep, CZ's......Redheads of the gun world.....;-)

[Salamander]

I'd be interested to hear your impressions as far as shoot-ability of the SK. It's one of those guns that looks good on paper when I consider a replacement for my G26. Thanks

I'll have a try at this one... at my most recent CCW re-quals, I shot two P2000's (9mm and .357 Sig) and a P2000sk (9mm). This was done with the toughest local instructor, he requires 25 rounds from each pistol as mandated by the state, and goes beyond that to vary distances from 5 yds to 15 yrds, insists on a moderately rapid cadence, and includes half a dozen head shots, all on standard IDPA targets. Not terribly difficult, but enough to mess with the less serious shooters.

On that course, I shot my best score with the P2000sk. Not by a lot, all were 100%, but the P2000sk had the tightest groups. I've since repeated that experience at the range, and can't really explain it. So at short to moderate distances, it's a very capable pistol.

That doesn't tell the whole story though. I've tried the same set of pistols at various two-day training events, and again the P2000sk shoots as well as it's bigger brothers inside 15 yards. When it starts to lag behind is at longer ranges... at 50 yds my hit rate on steel was twice as good with the P2000 as with the P2000sk... or on faster-fire strings at moderate distances. As a result of that experience, I'm comfortable carrying the P2000sk in town on office days when the smaller size is a bit of an advantage, but in more open areas, anyplace where distances are greater, I much prefer the P2000. It's just a greater degree of confidence for the longer shots.

As for the G26 comparison; for me, and for my average size hands, it's no contest. That extra little bit of grip on the P2000sk lets me get two and a half fingers on the grip (with the flat base plates), as opposed to only two fingers on a G26. Not a big difference on mild dry days, but in the rain or with sweaty hands the difference is huge. I also find the P2000sk, or even the P2000 for that matter, easier to conceal than a G26 because of the more rounded edges on the HK. If I were carrying a Glock, it would be a G19 and never a G26. With HK though, I don't feel I'm giving up a lot with the smaller pistol at least in most urban settings. YMMV, hand size and personal preference could have a big influence on this.

I'll also second what someone else said about 45c mag releases on Blade-Tech holsters. I learned this the hard way when getting out of a car one time and realizing that my magazine was laying on the car seat. I was able to repeat that twice more later by leaning back on the seat a certain way. Upon close inspection, the larger mag release (which I really like and consider to be essential) is in contact with the kydex on this particular OWB holster, when it squeezes together under pressure it pinches on the mag release and drops the mag. The same pistol clears easily on a Raven Phantom and I've had no accidental mag dumps with that holster in years of use under widely varied conditions in numerous different personal, work, and rental vehicles. As far as I know, it's just certain models of Blade-Tech that have the issue.

[GJM]

This summer, has been an HK carry summer, with me carrying the USP 45 with Super ammo in the field, and a P2000 .40 in town. I have my gear sorted out with two DA/SA USP .45, two DA/SA P2000 9, and two DA/SA P2000 .40 pistols.

I just got to shoot the #2 P2000 .40 for the first time this morning. It is stock, except for a Wolff 12 pound hammer spring and Trijicon HD sights. I shot a magazine at a two inch dot at 10 yards, and then went straight to 25 yards. It was POA/POI at 25 yards, all nicely in the lower half of the 3x5 card. This is notably different than the 9mm P2000 pistols, which have more of a "drive the dot" POI for me.

I then dropped in the .357 Sig barrel I recently got, and shot it at 25 yards. First, with XTP 147 grain factory .357 Sig ammo, which I selected for penetration and the thought that the heavier bullet would regulate better in elevation. When I checked the target, I was astounded by the 25 yard group of about 1.5 inches, clustered two inches left of the .40 POI. I then shot two other loads, a 125 Privi shooter ball, and S&B 140 FMJ. Both shot well, but lower in POI than the XTP. Both of these loads were also about two inches left of center at 25 yards.

This makes both of my P2000 .40 pistols shooting most .357 Sig loads about two inches left at 25 yards. I guess I will have to decide whether I am going to run with .40 or .357 and zero accordingly. The .40 barrels shoot well, but the .357 accuracy is notable in both guns with the XTP ammo.

[Notso]

I rarely if ever post so sorry for bringing this one back from the dead but I have to sing the praises of the P2000. I never really thought too much of the P2000 but it really is kind of under appreciated- especially in light of the more "modern" HK designs. Now how I got to this conclusion was from several years of 1911's and then to HK45's/HK45C and then to P30's and finally to the P2000. I did about 15K rounds through a HK45 until my joints revolted, switched to the P30 (after wasting many hours reading Todd's P30 Thursday) (thanks to GJM for selling me two!) but despite how much I loved it, it doesn't conceal well for me- a little rough on the skin and clothing and the butt is just a tad too long for my thin frame. Enter the P2000. LGS had one lightly used for a good deal so I jumped. Its pretty phenomenal so far. All the HK qualities from the USP line with smoother edges and angles. So much easier to conceal, almost totally hidden and much more comfortable to wear for long periods, especially in the hot southern heat. Even more surprising is, after reading some of the smarter guys on here and the heavy P2000 users, I stuck with heavy LEM (my others are usually TLG LEM) and it has worked really well. Now I usually Dremel and torture my poor guns but I swore to leave this one alone. I did however, add an extended mag release and put the low profile slide releases on and it has been working really well so far. Thanks to everyone before me for posting and providing your insights.

I am still using stock sights with the back dots blacked out. Anyone have any good recommendations? I know it's slim pickings for the P2000. The other HK's I use are Straight 8's which I've grown to love. I like the POI at the top of the sight but the stocks shoot the dot.

[breakingtime91]

I really like the orange HD's on my p2000. The slide shape and the sights go together very well.. not sure why it feels faster and looks like I have more light on each side. Love them.

[NorthernHeat]

When I eventually change out the stock sights, I plan on going to HD's (Orange)

[LSP972]

I really like the orange HD's on my p2000. The slide shape and the sights go together very well.. not sure why it feels faster and looks like I have more light on each side. Love them.

Ditto the green ones on a pair of USPc 9mm's. Both of my pistols still shoot EXACTLY to POA, and in bright ambient light, that front sight grabs your attention just like a fiber optic does.

.

[Notso]

So LSP they're shooting to the dot?

[LSP972]

So LSP they're shooting to the dot?

Precisely so at 25 yards. A tad high closer in, but that's fine since one can be expected to display a bit of trigger snatch under duress.

.

[Mike C]

I like the HD's but that rear sight is rough on my shirts. I always end up with two or three little holes that grow over time and often cause the shirt to be tossed into the gun rag pile. I sure wish we could get some Heinies, 10-8's or the like for the P2000. That would be perfect, because then I wouldn't have to by doubles of my shirts anymore. Glad you're enjoying your new P2000 Notso.

[OnionsAndDragons]

My HDs also shoot to the dot from about 15-30yds or so.

The p2000 ones aren't as bad as the Glock rears, but they are still too pointy. I don't understand how Trijicon hasn't fixed this by now.

I do love them on my p2000. Took me forever to try them, but I'm happy I did.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JodyH]

A coarse diamond file and some cold blue knocks the edge off HD's pretty well.

[Mike C]

Thanks JodyH, I know what I'll be doing tonight.

[Notso]

Ha! That sounds like me, buy something new and take a file, Dremel and torch right to it and then wonder why the resale went down. I have a house full of duplicate HKs worth probably half their price. I had a set of 10-8's on a 1911 that I had to take down the edges on. Worked well enough.

JodyH, you're running HDs on your 2000? POA/POI for you as well? I'd really like to find something that shoots top of the sight post to give a little more visibility on small targets but doesn't sound like there's any good options for P2000.

[breakingtime91]

Ha! That sounds like me, buy something new and take a file, Dremel and torch right to it and then wonder why the resale went down. I have a house full of duplicate HKs worth probably half their price. I had a set of 10-8's on a 1911 that I had to take down the edges on. Worked well enough.

JodyH, you're running HDs on your 2000? POA/POI for you as well? I'd really like to find something that shoots top of the sight post to give a little more visibility on small targets but doesn't sound like there's any good options for P2000.

It is what it is with the HDs. I prefer the dot as my point of impact, especially for "combat" shooting. You can still use the top of the sight for small targets, just aim a little higher.

[kcevans]

I now have a P2000 LEM V2, what springs do I need to change to convert it over to a P2000 TLG.
Forgive me if my terminology is incorrect.

[Notso]

Try this link http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/168700-spring-reference-chart-different-lem-variants.html