I feel dirty.

[Tamara]

I was at the gun show last weekend and noticed that a few dealers had brand new SW9Fs (aka the "Stigma") for $285.

$285. For a brand new gun with two mags from a major US manufacturer with a lifetime warranty. Relative to the average price of a new autochucker, that's cheap. That's cheaper than Ruger cheap; cheaper than Taurus cheap; hell, that's Bersa cheap. That's practically throwaway money.

I damn' near bought one just so I could take it to a class and see if it'd go 500 or 1000 rounds without puking. And if it did, I would laugh and laugh.

"Seriously, grandma, don't buy that Taurus Judge, look what I got you for Christmas, here's how you load it..."

"Hey, Bob, can you put this box in your attic? I'll call you if I ever need it."

"It's stainless, Ed, we can keep it in the Winnebago all year 'round and it won't rust."

That's awfully close to my "Blister Pack at the Checkout Line" handgun dream.

[Al T.]

They are best (IMHO) described as an improved Sigma. The trigger is workable, the grip is (IMHO) a good copy of a MagPul AR grip and the price is right.

For a non-gunnie or as a light duty piece, hard to beat.

[ACP230]

The price wouldn't move me. I don't care for the Sigma's looks.

[Tamara]

I don't care for the Sigma's looks.
I don't think it's really a "Pride Of Ownership" kinda gun.

[fuse]

Yeah they don't make water hot enough to rectify that.

[Odin Bravo One]

You should feel dirty Tam. But if you join the Afghan National Police, you can get one issued to you, and actually BE dirty. Pretty sure bathing is against the rules somewhere.

Oh, they also suck.

Good luck getting through the 500 rounds. I am not sure it would make it to 1000 without needing to use that warranty.

[WDW]

Hi-Points are cheap too, you want one of those?

[Rappahannock]

I'd be very curious to see how far that S&W gets. I know this site is populated with a lot of pistol connoisseurs who have good reason to look askance at the $285 autoloader. Considering the times in which we live, however, a functional 9mm auto could become what the Model T was in the Great Depression: cheap, unfashionable, but perhaps dependable even if you cringe to be seen sitting in one.

Please keep us informed of how this test of the pistol works out.

The link below is to the S&W forums page where a couple of owners have recorded their experiences:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-sigma-sd-pistols/204141-sd-owners-chime-please.html

[Odin Bravo One]

They don't work. Using quality ammunition, they still suck. Bad.

That is why they are inexpensive. Sometimes inexpensive and cheap are not the same........in this case they are.

I don't have an example pistol as a reference, but over 500 of them. Brand new, out of the box. They suck. All of them.

[fuse]

I'd be very curious to see how far that S&W gets. I know this site is populated with a lot of pistol connoisseurs who have good reason to look askance at the $285 autoloader. Considering the times in which we live, however, a functional 9mm auto could become what the Model T was in the Great Depression: cheap, unfashionable, but perhaps dependable even if you cringe to be seen sitting in one.

Please keep us informed of how this test of the pistol works out.

The link below is to the S&W forums page where a couple of owners have recorded their experiences:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-sigma-sd-pistols/204141-sd-owners-chime-please.html

She didn't actually buy one.

[Ed L]

What exactly are these S&W SDs?

Are they rebranded Sigmas with some polishing to look better?

Are they internally Sigmas?


I damn' near bought one just so I could take it to a class and see if it'd go 500 or 1000 rounds without puking. And if it did, I would laugh and laugh.

I know you are just thinking out loud here and not seriously contemplating doing it, but for me it would not be worth the price of a class and ammo to find out.

Likewise, I would not want to take a class with a gun that I don't shoot well unless it was my issue or carry gun. And over the last few years I have taken classes with a M&P9 & M&P45, Glock 17 & 19, Springfield Professional, H&K USP40.

[jslaker]

I personally watched a new production (~2010) Sigma break an extractor in half in the first 500 rounds, get sent off the Smith, then come back with magazine feeding issues with the new mags S&W sent back with the gun. That pretty much killed any interest I might have had in the line.

@ed - the SDs are supposedly slightly different than both the Sigma and M&P in action. I don't know much about them beyond that. They're far enough above the Sigma in price, and close enough to the M&P, though, that I'm not sure which group of firearm buyer is likely to select them. They do come from the factory with tritium, which is a nice touch.

[Tamara]

The last ones I saw get any real round count on 'em were in the rental case at CCA from '04 to... '06? A nine and a forty. Obviously, they didn't get rented as often as the SIGlock & Kochs, but they never gave any problems with the cheap-o ball ammo we used for the rental guns.

You never saw any come in to the shop busted, either, but a lot of that can be attributed to the fact that people who buy pistols in that price range rarely put enough mileage on them to reveal any problems. If the average commercial SW9F sees 250 rounds in its lifetime, I'll eat my hat.

I guess what got me wondering is that, when the Sigma was initially released, back in '94, they were priced roughly parallel to the Glock. After the lawsuit, Smith kept driving the price relentlessly down, and you know they're not losing money on them, so you have to wonder where the cost savings are coming from.

[phil_in_cs]

Dave Merrill borrowed a 9mm version from a friend, and ran a case of wolf through one in a single day. He didn't have significant issues with it IIRC. Terrible trigger, bad ergos, etc, but it ran ok for a cheap blaster.

[Wheeler]

The last ones I saw get any real round count on 'em were in the rental case at CCA from '04 to... '06? A nine and a forty. Obviously, they didn't get rented as often as the SIGlock & Kochs, but they never gave any problems with the cheap-o ball ammo we used for the rental guns.

You never saw any come in to the shop busted, either, but a lot of that can be attributed to the fact that people who buy pistols in that price range rarely put enough mileage on them to reveal any problems. If the average commercial SW9F sees 250 rounds in its lifetime, I'll eat my hat.

I guess what got me wondering is that, when the Sigma was initially released, back in '94, they were priced roughly parallel to the Glock. After the lawsuit, Smith kept driving the price relentlessly down, and you know they're not losing money on them, so you have to wonder where the cost savings are coming from.

I heard from a reliable source at Glock a few years ago that the cost of production per unit was $55. I would say that the Sigma or SW9/40's are even less.

[rsa-otc]

I was at the S&W Academy just after the Sigma line was introduced. The staff raved that the school guns were getting high round counts with out cleaning with no issues. Tom Aveni's personal weapon had upward to 5000 rounds thru it IIRC. Kind of the original 2000 round test. Of course I realize they were probably spouting the party line. They were offering them with night sights and high capacity mags to students for around $300. I was tempted since I had been thinking about getting a 40 S&W gun at the time, but didn't have the money.

I one time refered to the Sigma as a POS and was taken to task by another forum member about how good his was.

Just to be honest my personal weapons have always ran toward the S&W product line.

[Tamara]

I was at the S&W Academy just after the Sigma line was introduced. The staff raved that the school guns were getting high round counts with out cleaning with no issues.
Funny story: Back right before the Stigma was put on the market, our S&W rep came in to do his dog & pony show. Plastic frames sucked. Striker ignition was unreliable. What kind of maniac would have a pistol with no manual safety? Et cetera and et cetera...

Just a couple months later, the same guy schleps his sample case through the doors and hauls out a .40 cal Stigma. "Look what we invented!" he crows.

While he's giving me the spiel, I pass the Stigma over to a customer who's indicated he'd like to take a look at it. While me and the salesdroid are talking, the customer takes the G22 he'd been looking at and the .40 Stigma and swaps the slide assemblies between the two guns. :eek:

IIRC, the Stigma slide came back off the Glock okay, but it took a whack with a mallet to get the Glock slide off the Stigma (or maybe it was the other way around; it's been a few years) but I'll never forget the panicked look on the customer's face, thinking he'd just bought himself $700+ worth of pistols for a minute there.

[Abraxas]

I don't think it's really a "Pride Of Ownership" kinda gun.

For me it would be the proverbial moped or fat chick. Fine to have, just would not want to tell anyone about it (or trust it).

[David Armstrong]

I've had several come through my CCW classes without any trouble, which is more than I can say for some other guns.

[Al T.]

but over 500 of them. Brand new, out of the box.

Sigmas or SV series? Buddy of mine was an armorer for DynCorp and hates the Sigmas. The SD series seems to be improved.

Sigmas:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757764_-1_757752_757751_image

SD9 & SD40:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757962_-1_757752_757751_image

[JAD]

I'll never forget the panicked look on the customer's face, thinking he'd just bought himself $700+ worth of pistols for a minute there.
-- Well, $401, assuming a Glock was worth $400 at the time.