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JBP55
06-24-2015, 06:47 PM
Tuesday, June 23, 2015

Oklahoma Highway Patrol Chooses the SIG P320
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The Oklahoma Highway Patrol has chosen the SIG P320 in 9 mm as the agency’s next duty pistol, and has placed an order for more than 800 of the full-size semi-automatic pistols.

According to a letter from the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety, the pistol was selected after more than 78,000 rounds of assorted brands of ammunition were tested over a two-week period and performed without any mechanical issues.

*All of us here at SIG are proud to have the Oklahoma Highway Patrol be the first state police agency to adopt the P320,* said Tom Jankiewicz, Vice President of Law Enforcement Sales for SIG Sauer, Inc. *The pistol’s safety, accuracy and reliability are what our law enforcement customers expect in a striker-fired pistol worthy of the SIG Sauer name.*

Designed with input from law enforcement officers, the P320 offers enhanced ergonomics, a short, crisp trigger pull with a tactile reset, and the ability to take down the pistol with no tools and without the need to press the trigger.

Instructors also found that inexperienced shooters saw a reduced learning curve with the P320 and progressed more quickly through training. The pistol’s interchangeable grip modules allows each officer to have a pistol that best fits his or her hand.

*We have observed the pistol to be accurate, reliable and operator friendly,* said Lt. Todd Fenimore of the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. *We are looking forward to the statewide pistol transition.*

Kyle Reese
06-24-2015, 06:59 PM
I wish them the best.

Isn't the Texas DPS mulling over a switch to the SIG P 320 in 9mm as well?

JBP55
06-24-2015, 07:34 PM
I wish them the best.

Isn't the Texas DPS mulling over a switch to the SIG P 320 in 9mm as well?


Yes.

Dagga Boy
06-24-2015, 09:15 PM
They learned from DPS and got rid of the VP9 before they even started.....saves the trouble of finding a reason at the end.;)

Surf
06-25-2015, 12:35 AM
The DPS for my State is about the make the leap. They are in the final stages.

JHC
06-25-2015, 06:35 AM
The DPS for my State is about the make the leap. They are in the final stages.

To the 320 also?

Lon
06-25-2015, 05:56 PM
They learned from DPS and got rid of the VP9 before they even started.....saves the trouble of finding a reason at the end.;)

Care to elaborate? I honestly havent paid much attention to how the Vp9 is doing. I take it there are problems?

Edit: a quick google search came up with reset issues. Is that it? I didn't read any of the corresponding articles, just checked the headlines.

Trooper224
06-25-2015, 06:01 PM
Care to elaborate? I honestly havent paid much attention to how the Vp9 is doing. I take it there are problems?

Edit: a quick google search came up with reset issues. Is that it? I didn't read any of the corresponding articles, just checked the headlines.

Perhaps he was intimating that they wanted the Sig, so they eliminated any possible contenders outright to ensure they got the Sig.

Lon
06-25-2015, 06:19 PM
Gotcha.

Dagga Boy
06-25-2015, 06:22 PM
The VP9 smoked everything in the Texas DPS test, so they needed to find a reason to take the Sig they wanted. Oklahoma decided to mandate that the magazine had to hold 17 rounds, which got rid of the VP9 before the test started.

Warren Wilson
06-25-2015, 08:26 PM
OHP has a long history with Sigs and being constant.

Dagga Boy
06-25-2015, 09:48 PM
OHP has a long history with Sigs and being constant.

Which is how most contracts are actually done. Sig has had some reps who have done very good work in some areas keeping some customers very happy. A ton of issues can be fixed with good customer support. Brand loyalty can be a double edged sword. As long as it is cutting the direction you want, it is hard to change. As long as you don't get cut by the other side, all is well and I really don't blame agencies for sticking with something that logistically works for them, even if it doesn't make sense to those outside their system. With that said, agencies must be prepared for the day when their brand is no longer the way to go and should keep their options open.

Chuck Haggard
06-25-2015, 10:54 PM
OHP also still has what they call the "Big Boy Rule" I am told, carry what you can qual with. They have been issuing Sigs for a long time, but a lot of troopers carry Glock 31s. There are a few carrying .44magnums over in the panhandle.

Surf
06-25-2015, 11:01 PM
To the 320 also?

Sorry yes the P320. They are in a mandatory open bid process right now for fair vendor opportunity.

Warren Wilson
06-26-2015, 03:02 AM
OHP also still has what they call the "Big Boy Rule" I am told, carry what you can qual with. They have been issuing Sigs for a long time, but a lot of troopers carry Glock 31s. There are a few carrying .44magnums over in the panhandle.

^^^^Truth. Vince can tell you stories about one of them who qualifies with 100s nearly every time with full house magnums. One stage of the state-mandated CLEET course requires three rounds fired weak hand only. Ouch.

LSP972
06-26-2015, 07:05 AM
.. a lot of troopers carry Glock 31s.

I hope they aren't counting on that to be a death ray on vehicles.

When those two Mississippi troopers chased that shitbird in a stolen Land Rover into St. Helena parish and lit him up when he crashed and pointed a pistol at them, the performance of the .357 Sig cartridge was... underwhelming. They fired 13 rounds at the vehicle, hit with all, and only two of them actually got inside it- through the rear window. Gold Dots, IIRC.

I relate this only because I've heard (and seen written) a general opinion, among cops who know more than which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, that the .357 Sig is a car-killer, etc., etc. We too have a very generous policy concerning personally-owned duty weapons, and have had a few guys toting G31s or .357 P226s in the past; dunno know about now, and no shootings with the cartridge that I know of.

.

JBP55
06-26-2015, 07:09 AM
^^^^Truth. Vince can tell you stories about one of them who qualifies with 100s nearly every time with full house magnums. One stage of the state-mandated CLEET course requires three rounds fired weak hand only. Ouch.

The LA. P O S T Firearms Course requires 6 rounds fired Non Dominant Hand Only.

John Hearne
06-26-2015, 07:29 AM
I relate this only because I've heard (and seen written) a general opinion, among cops who know more than which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, that the .357 Sig is a car-killer, etc., etc. We too have a very generous policy concerning personally-owned duty weapons, and have had a few guys toting G31s or .357 P226s in the past; dunno know about now, and no shootings with the cartridge that I know of.

I blame Texas DPS for starting that rumor. They had two early shootings that have been repeated ad nauseum. One involved a suspect in an 18 wheeler. The 45's didn't hit the driver but the 357 Sig did. Anyone who knows about shooting into vehicles knows that whether a bullet penetrates depends on what structures inside the door are struck, not the bullet. The other involved a suspect stealing a Trooper's car. He fired at the suspect but the 45's didn't penetrate well. So, they adapted the 357 Sig - apparently so they could shoot up their own cars better. :rolleyes:

JHC
06-26-2015, 07:30 AM
^^^^Truth. Vince can tell you stories about one of them who qualifies with 100s nearly every time with full house magnums. One stage of the state-mandated CLEET course requires three rounds fired weak hand only. Ouch.

Is he huge?

JHC
06-26-2015, 07:35 AM
OHP also still has what they call the "Big Boy Rule" I am told, carry what you can qual with. They have been issuing Sigs for a long time, but a lot of troopers carry Glock 31s. There are a few carrying .44magnums over in the panhandle.

That's pretty cool to hear actually.

With my recent interest in the Sig round I've perused a lot of testing stuff on company sites and other independent "stunts" and my sense is Hornady's Critical Duty load is a pretty strong contender for a .357 Sig using agency that was focused on getting into vehicles.

LSP972
06-26-2015, 10:41 AM
I blame Texas DPS for starting that rumor.

That's kind of what I was thinking.

.

Warren Wilson
06-27-2015, 10:42 PM
Is he huge?

I do not know for certain, but I think we can assume he has thrown a few bails of hay in his lifetime.

JHC
06-28-2015, 05:38 PM
I do not know for certain, but I think we can assume he has thrown a few bails of hay in his lifetime.

Lol dayim.

Jim Watson
06-30-2015, 01:01 AM
Not P320 related, but we had a burly deputy who carried an M29.
But when semi-annual qualifications came around, he borrowed a friend's tuned Python.

UNK
06-30-2015, 09:17 AM
What do you mean " smoked "


The VP9 smoked everything in the Texas DPS test, so they needed to find a reason to take the Sig they wanted. Oklahoma decided to mandate that the magazine had to hold 17 rounds, which got rid of the VP9 before the test started.

LSP972
06-30-2015, 09:41 AM
Blew away; as in, out-performed all other contestants by a noticeable margin.

.

UNK
06-30-2015, 11:09 AM
Yes Thank you I understood that part but what were the criteria?


Blew away; as in, out-performed all other contestants by a noticeable margin.

.

Dagga Boy
06-30-2015, 11:42 AM
They did an excellent endurance test with a good way to document problems. The newer service pistols did well. The VP9 did VERY good. Some other guns flat self destructed.

The reality of these tests are as a good "due diligence" process to document some sort of criteria before the agency buys what it usually wanted all along. Just for clarification so there is no heartburn. Nobody really expected DPS to buy the HK for political reasons alone (which are a real factor). Those of us who do like the VP9 were very happy knowing the gun itself is good and agency testing mirrored our observations on system reliability and how well hey shoot. There are way too many factors other than pure performance in these tests that are things HK still needs to contend with, including a "off duty/back up" size gun, holsters and support gear, etc.

UNK
07-01-2015, 02:07 PM
So do you have time on the 320 as well? If so what is your preference and why.


They did an excellent endurance test with a good way to document problems. The newer service pistols did well. The VP9 did VERY good. Some other guns flat self destructed.

The reality of these tests are as a good "due diligence" process to document some sort of criteria before the agency buys what it usually wanted all along. Just for clarification so there is no heartburn. Nobody really expected DPS to buy the HK for political reasons alone (which are a real factor). Those of us who do like the VP9 were very happy knowing the gun itself is good and agency testing mirrored our observations on system reliability and how well hey shoot. There are way too many factors other than pure performance in these tests that are things HK still needs to contend with, including a "off duty/back up" size gun, holsters and support gear, etc.

Dagga Boy
07-02-2015, 05:10 PM
Very little. Like most, I like the VP 9 in feel much better. I find the VP9/320 tends to be sort of a "That one is nice, but I love this one". Even in the Gray Guns shop they are having the same "Civil War". I think the 320 is a good gun and won't bash it as the ones I have shot have been fine. I have the same feelings I did for the 320 as I did with the M&P...okay, but I am not giving up the Glock for it. 320 is okay, but I am not giving up the VP9 for one. I will say, if people like modifying stuff at home, it seems like the 320 is a better choice.

11B10
09-12-2015, 10:27 PM
Very little. Like most, I like the VP 9 in feel much better. I find the VP9/320 tends to be sort of a "That one is nice, but I love this one". Even in the Gray Guns shop they are having the same "Civil War". I think the 320 is a good gun and won't bash it as the ones I have shot have been fine. I have the same feelings I did for the 320 as I did with the M&P...okay, but I am not giving up the Glock for it. 320 is okay, but I am not giving up the VP9 for one. I will say, if people like modifying stuff at home, it seems like the 320 is a better choice.

"Modify at home" - specifically?

Sammy1
09-15-2015, 07:23 PM
I wonder what they did for testing. I've found my own 9mm P320 isn't as reliable as my G17.

pablo
09-15-2015, 07:32 PM
"Modify at home" - specifically?

The replaceable grip assembly, don't know the technical term, takes most of the stakes out of putting a soldering iron, Dremel, etc to the grip.

HCM
09-15-2015, 08:30 PM
I wonder what they did for testing. I've found my own 9mm P320 isn't as reliable as my G17.

specifics ?

I ask because I've had exactly one malfunction in 12 K rounds with my duty G4 17. It was with practice ammo (magtech 115 grain FMJ.). Ive had zero malfunctions. So far Ive had 4 in 750 rounds in my 320C, and three of those were lights strikes / Failure to fire which subsequently fired out of my Glock. in fairness, all three were Tula steel case 115 FMJ and the fourth was a Remington UMC 115 FMJ. I've had no malfunctions with duty grade ammo.

Nephrology
09-15-2015, 11:36 PM
specifics ?

I ask because I've had exactly one malfunction in 12 K rounds with my duty G4 17. It was with practice ammo (magtech 115 grain FMJ.). Ive had zero malfunctions. So far Ive had 4 in 750 rounds in my 320C, and three of those were lights strikes / Failure to fire which subsequently fired out of my Glock. in fairness, all three were Tula steel case 115 FMJ and the fourth was a Remington UMC 115 FMJ. I've had no malfunctions with duty grade ammo.

I've had Tula FTFs with my Gen 3 9mm Glocks. Mostly hard ass primers. and UMC is garbage ammo...maybe worse than Tula. certainly less consistent

GJM
09-15-2015, 11:40 PM
I have had three Blazer brass rounds fail in the last month -- two in a Glock 17 and one in a Brig Tac.

ReverendMeat
09-16-2015, 12:51 AM
I've had exactly one malfunction in 12 K rounds with my duty G4 17. It was with practice ammo (magtech 115 grain FMJ.). Ive had zero malfunctions.

Could you please clarify this statement?

JHC
09-16-2015, 06:51 AM
specifics ?

I ask because I've had exactly one malfunction in 12 K rounds with my duty G4 17. It was with practice ammo (magtech 115 grain FMJ.). Ive had zero malfunctions. So far Ive had 4 in 750 rounds in my 320C, and three of those were lights strikes / Failure to fire which subsequently fired out of my Glock. in fairness, all three were Tula steel case 115 FMJ and the fourth was a Remington UMC 115 FMJ. I've had no malfunctions with duty grade ammo.

I noted on one of the early 320 threads last winter about something similar. I shoot a good bit of cheapo Monarch steel case and it's like nothing I've seen before with failures to fire when it gets cold and damp. With many Glocks - a several per each box of 50 at 40 degrees and cooler roundabouts. When it's warm out maybe 1 per 100 or 200. But one cold damp day I just put up the 320 full size because it was failing to ignite 4 out of 5, magazine after magazine. Most of those then fired through whichever Glock I had out that morning.

The 320 never showed that with any US made ammo I shot during that time.

HCM
09-16-2015, 11:28 AM
Could you please clarify this statement?

12k through the gen4 17 - only 1 malfunction with mag tech 115 grain FMJ practice ammo. A failure to extract. The round sounded weak enough I thought it might be a squid but the bore was clear.I've had no gun related malfunctions in my 17 aGen 4 with duty ammo, specifically 124+P GDHP and Winchester Ranger 147 grain bonded.

Monarch ammo is what it is. What I thought was notable was that the same rounds would not fire given a second attempt in the 320 C but they would fire in the Glock.

Honestly I think the Monarch Steelcase has better quality and reliability then the UMC. The malfunction with the UMC round was also a failure to fire, however it occurred on a commercial range and when I enected the round it fell beneath the grating and I was not able to retrieve it.

The 320 C has not had any malfunctions with Judy great ammo but it does seem more ammo sensitive than the Glock.

This is a topic of more than just academic interest to me since the 320 C is a serious contender in my agency's current handgun trials.

GJM
09-16-2015, 01:55 PM
Based on what I have read, and personally observed with 320 pistols (several failures to ignite with a .357 Sig 320), I think ignition may be a soft spot for the 320, like extraction/ejection is with Glock pistols. Hopefully Sig addresses this as the pistol matures. Great reason to be cautious with gen 1 designs.

taadski
09-16-2015, 05:42 PM
Based on what I have read, and personally observed with 320 pistols (several failures to ignite with a .357 Sig 320), I think ignition may be a soft spot for the 320, like extraction/ejection is with Glock pistols. Hopefully Sig addresses this as the pistol matures. Great reason to be cautious with gen 1 designs.


This in a stock one G? Or one of yours with trigger work done to it? The carry job is the one you were shooting most, right?


t

HCM
09-16-2015, 07:01 PM
Based on what I have read, and personally observed with 320 pistols (several failures to ignite with a .357 Sig 320), I think ignition may be a soft spot for the 320, like extraction/ejection is with Glock pistols. Hopefully Sig addresses this as the pistol matures. Great reason to be cautious with gen 1 designs.

It may be the price we pay for the nice trigger pull. Mine is stock but in fairness it's an early production gun.

11B10
09-16-2015, 07:45 PM
I must really be dense because I read nyeti to mean modifying the 320 at home, which seems to be the opposite of what you're saying. I have done some very minor polymer work on my 30 S and thought nyeti meant the same for the 320 - no?

GJM
09-17-2015, 01:08 AM
This in a stock one G? Or one of yours with trigger work done to it? The carry job is the one you were shooting most, right?


t

My .357 Sig 320 is bone stock other than sights. Think one cartridge was a Ranger 125 grain, and the other a Gold Dot.

Clusterfrack
09-17-2015, 10:27 AM
My .357 Sig 320 is bone stock other than sights. Think one cartridge was a Ranger 125 grain, and the other a Gold Dot.

What sights do you have on your 320s?

taadski
09-17-2015, 11:34 AM
My .357 Sig 320 is bone stock other than sights. Think one cartridge was a Ranger 125 grain, and the other a Gold Dot.

Thx.

Sammy1
09-17-2015, 02:27 PM
I've yet to have a malfunction with my G22 or G17 and I've had one with the p320 9mm full size and my friend has had two with his compact. Not putting down the P320, just saying I've seen a couple of hiccups. The 320 malfunction was a failure to feed with Wichester 147 grain ammo. I believe my buddy was using 124 grain but I'm not sure.

GJM
09-18-2015, 12:14 AM
What sights do you have on your 320s?

I have HD sights on a 9 and .357 Sig Compact, and P series Dawson FO sights on a full size and Compact upper.


I've yet to have a malfunction with my G22 or G17 and I've had one with the p320 9mm full size and my friend has had two with his compact. Not putting down the P320, just saying I've seen a couple of hiccups. The 320 malfunction was a failure to feed with Wichester 147 grain ammo. I believe my buddy was using 124 grain but I'm not sure.

I saw a stoppage very early on a few of mine, and then no further problems. Suggests to me they may need some rounds fired to break them in.

Sammy1
09-18-2015, 04:08 AM
There have been a few agencies that T&Ed the 320 and adopted it so I think the gun is reliable. I'd like to hear the process, how many rounds they put through them.

Symmetry
09-18-2015, 08:01 AM
Does anyone know if the Sig sight pusher for the classic Sig series works on the P320?

skyshark
09-18-2015, 09:23 AM
Does anyone know if the Sig sight pusher for the classic Sig series works on the P320?

It can be made to work but it's not ideal. I used mine to swap the sights on my 320 but had to remove the lock down screw and the rail brackets and then fashion some shims using hard pressed paperboard to hold the slide in the proper position.

taadski
09-18-2015, 12:31 PM
Does anyone know if the Sig sight pusher for the classic Sig series works on the P320?


I own a MGW pusher for P series pistols (newer version for stamped and milled classic slides, not the "Pro Universal" model) and it's a no go with the 320. With or without the bolt and rail washer in place, the width of the rear of the slide won't fit through the "uprights" if you will.


t

GJM
09-18-2015, 01:15 PM
MGW Pro tool has a 320 specific shoe.

Clusterfrack
09-18-2015, 01:32 PM
I have HD sights on a 9 and .357 Sig Compact, and P series Dawson FO sights on a full size and Compact upper.


Thanks George. Now that USPSA Nationals are over, I've switched from a G34 to a Grayguns p320F for competition. But now my index is buggered with a Glock. I'm going to try the 320c for carry once my JMCK AIWB shows up. I'm trying to figure out what sights to put on the 320c. My favorite Glock sight is the Ameriglo Operator green/yellow, but I've heard so much conflicting info about POI in these guns that I'm thinking of just using the same excellent setup I have on my full size 320:

Dawson P series FO front sight: 0.220” tall, 0.115” wide
Grayguns/SPD Tool rear sight: 0.275" tall, 0.125” wide, 0.115” notch depth

Any thoughts you have would be most welcome!

(and I sure wish there were a 320 sight tool that didn't cost $350...)

JHC
09-18-2015, 01:53 PM
Thanks George. Now that USPSA Nationals are over, I've switched from a G34 to a Grayguns p320F for competition. But now my index is buggered with a Glock. I'm going to try the 320c for carry once my JMCK AIWB shows up.

Any thoughts you have would be most welcome!



Yes now that you mention it I ran into that also last Winter shooting the 320 and then going back on the carry Glocks!

Clusterfrack
09-18-2015, 02:26 PM
Anyone try a Fisher XL sight tool (http://www.sightpusher.com/Handgun-Sight-Tool.html)?

GJM
09-18-2015, 03:11 PM
Thanks George. Now that USPSA Nationals are over, I've switched from a G34 to a Grayguns p320F for competition. But now my index is buggered with a Glock. I'm going to try the 320c for carry once my JMCK AIWB shows up. I'm trying to figure out what sights to put on the 320c. My favorite Glock sight is the Ameriglo Operator green/yellow, but I've heard so much conflicting info about POI in these guns that I'm thinking of just using the same excellent setup I have on my full size 320:

Dawson P series FO front sight: 0.220” tall, 0.115” wide
Grayguns/SPD Tool rear sight: 0.275" tall, 0.125” wide, 0.115” notch depth

Any thoughts you have would be most welcome!

(and I sure wish there were a 320 sight tool that didn't cost $350...)

Dawson sights often need fitting, so I had Robert Burke install them.

On my 320 C upper, the 9mm P series HD sights regulate perfectly on my pistol. On another 320 C upper, I started with the Dawson 320 specific sights (check their website for dimensions as I forget now what they are), but they hit low. I replaced the 320 rear with the P series rear (.20 taller as I recall), and that fixed the POI.

I also have a full size, but I think the FS lower and Compact upper shoots better.

Sam
09-18-2015, 05:32 PM
I also have a full size, but I think the FS lower and Compact upper shoots better.

Can I use a FS grip module with a compact upper or would I need the carry grip module? Finding the carry grip module has been difficult.

GJM
09-18-2015, 08:48 PM
Can I use a FS grip module with a compact upper or would I need the carry grip module? Finding the carry grip module has been difficult.

Need the Carry. Think if you call the Pro Shop, or whatever they call the store at the Sig Academy, they have them.

ranger
09-18-2015, 09:57 PM
Just came home from local range - one of our top shooters (normally a M&P shooter) had a new 320 Full size with Dawson FO front and Dawson rear. He is a very high volume shooter - it will be interesting to see how the 320 holds up. I shot one magazine through it on the plate rack - shot well - trigger seemed more like a DAO pull than a M&P or Glock striker pistol. Bore axis seemed higher than Glock, M&P, or the CZ P09 I was shooting. Interesting, it seemed to be same size as my CZ P09 and the P09 holds two more bullets.

Clusterfrack
09-19-2015, 02:12 PM
Dawson sights often need fitting, so I had Robert Burke install them.

On my 320 C upper, the 9mm P series HD sights regulate perfectly on my pistol. On another 320 C upper, I started with the Dawson 320 specific sights (check their website for dimensions as I forget now what they are), but they hit low. I replaced the 320 rear with the P series rear (.20 taller as I recall), and that fixed the POI.

I also have a full size, but I think the FS lower and Compact upper shoots better.

Have you shot with 147gr using the HD sights? The reason I ask is that in the 320F, my 147 grain competition load prints about 3" higher at 25 yds than my 125 gr load (both ~130 power factor).

Sammy1
09-19-2015, 05:58 PM
Have you shot with 147gr using the HD sights? The reason I ask is that in the 320F, my 147 grain competition load prints about 3" higher at 25 yds than my 125 gr load (both ~130 power factor).

My 320 FS 9mm also shoots higher with WWB 147 grain ammo. This isn't the first 9mm I had shoot slightly higher with heavier bullets, just a guess but more dwell time in the barrel?

GJM
09-19-2015, 06:07 PM
Have you shot with 147gr using the HD sights? The reason I ask is that in the 320F, my 147 grain competition load prints about 3" higher at 25 yds than my 125 gr load (both ~130 power factor).

My main carry load is the Gold Dot 124+P, and the HD sights are well regulated for that. On the Compact with Dawson sights, the 320 specific sights hit too low for me with 115-147.

Drang
05-15-2016, 04:53 PM
Necro-post here.

Hit the range last week and realized that the front sight of my P320 sub-compact is blurring out; I have a vary hard time seeing it.

Glasses prescription is over three years old, have an appointment next week, so if that's a factor I'll be correcting it, but I also want to try out different front sights, so...

Did anyone ever try one of these:

Anyone try a Fisher XL sight tool (http://www.sightpusher.com/Handgun-Sight-Tool.html)?
Price is low enough (especially compared to other designs!) to be practical for the home kitchen table gun smith/armorer, without going all WECSOG...

Luke
05-15-2016, 09:21 PM
Link is broken for the sight tool, but if it's one of the cheap ones on that website I've used one. Last time I used it was on a custom 2011, not even joking lol worked good too!

Drang
05-15-2016, 10:20 PM
Link is broken for the sight tool, but if it's one of the cheap ones on that website I've used one. Last time I used it was on a custom 2011, not even joking lol worked good too!
*facepalm*
I had to go to the home page the first time, forgot...
Standard Handgun Sight Tool - Sight Pusher Sight Pusher (http://sightpusher.com/product/standard-handgun-sight-tool/)
&
XL Handgun Sight Tool - Sight Pusher Sight Pusher (http://sightpusher.com/product/xl-handgun-sight-tool/)
The XL is bigger to accommodate ghost rings and suppressor height sights.
There are many similar appearing devices on Amazon, not sure which if any of them are made by Fischer.

ETA: A third device by the same folks: X2 Handgun Sight Tool - Sight Pusher Sight Pusher (http://sightpusher.com/product/x2-handgun-sight-tool/)

ETA #2: This one, probably: AmazonSmile : Sight Master Sight Pusher Tool T1003 : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors (http://www.amazon.com/Sight-Master-Pusher-Tool-T1003/dp/B00BD65Y4C/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1463369472&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=fischer+sight+pusher)

stingray
05-16-2016, 07:52 AM
The VP9 smoked everything in the Texas DPS test, so they needed to find a reason to take the Sig they wanted. Oklahoma decided to mandate that the magazine had to hold 17 rounds, which got rid of the VP9 before the test started.

The 15 round capacity is the only head scratcher for me with e VP9. The price point is even a refreshing look from H&K.

Wayne Dobbs
05-16-2016, 09:50 AM
The 15 round capacity is the only head scratcher for me with e VP9. The price point is even a refreshing look from H&K.

Shouldn't be a head scratcher issue. Can you get 17 rounds into the HK magazine envelope? Yes, you can. But....like everything else where you jam something into a space that's really too small, you create a less reliable machine and you wear it out sooner. HK magazines last forever and the reliability levels associated with their 15 shot 9X19 magazines are simply astounding. This bullshit of 17 rounds vs 15 rounds is just that. It's purely a psychological crutch used by the same penis thrashers who think having cool gear or lots of rounds will somehow make them competent in a fight...and it won't. If you select and train folks to a proper level of competence, then there is no actual performance difference between 8, 10, 15 or 17 rounds in the magazine, because the competent guys and gals haven't even approached the bottom of their magazine capacity to solve their street shooting problems.

breakingtime91
05-16-2016, 10:46 AM
Shouldn't be a head scratcher issue. Can you get 17 rounds into the HK magazine envelope? Yes, you can. But....like everything else where you jam something into a space that's really too small, you create a less reliable machine and you wear it out sooner. HK magazines last forever and the reliability levels associated with their 15 shot 9X19 magazines are simply astounding. This bullshit of 17 rounds vs 15 rounds is just that. It's purely a psychological crutch used by the same penis thrashers who think having cool gear or lots of rounds will somehow make them competent in a fight...and it won't. If you select and train folks to a proper level of competence, then there is no actual performance difference between 8, 10, 15 or 17 rounds in the magazine, because the competent guys and gals haven't even approached the bottom of their magazine capacity to solve their street shooting problems.

hey Wayne, I need to come train with you

psalms144.1
05-16-2016, 11:00 AM
snip...Damn, Wayne, you need to learn how to let your feelings be known. Keeping it all inside is bad for you...

Seriously, though, I agree with you completely, Glock magazines are, in my world, expendable items, and get replaced very frequently. And, as always, Indians vs arrows.

I do think there's an argument for more capacity being better than less (all things equal), but disqualifying a competitor over one or two rounds is just a way to intentionally exclude some designs. I've read enough requests for proposals at this point (and personnel position descriptions) to be able to tell in a hurry what the buyers DON'T want, and, in a lot of cases, what they're MANDATING without doing a sole-source solicitation.

stingray
05-16-2016, 12:46 PM
Shouldn't be a head scratcher issue. Can you get 17 rounds into the HK magazine envelope? Yes, you can. But....like everything else where you jam something into a space that's really too small, you create a less reliable machine and you wear it out sooner. HK magazines last forever and the reliability levels associated with their 15 shot 9X19 magazines are simply astounding. This bullshit of 17 rounds vs 15 rounds is just that. It's purely a psychological crutch used by the same penis thrashers who think having cool gear or lots of rounds will somehow make them competent in a fight...and it won't. If you select and train folks to a proper level of competence, then there is no actual performance difference between 8, 10, 15 or 17 rounds in the magazine, because the competent guys and gals haven't even approached the bottom of their magazine capacity to solve their street shooting problems.

I guess you're right. I mean really, H&K doesn't need the business of US LE agencies. Hell, who even needs 8 rounds right? If, as you say "select and train folks" and all.........then again I've never met anyone who's been in a gunfight that wished they had been carrying less ammo.

Dagga Boy
05-16-2016, 01:31 PM
I guess you're right. I mean really, H&K doesn't need the business of US LE agencies. Hell, who even needs 8 rounds right? If, as you say "select and train folks" and all.........then again I've never met anyone who's been in a gunfight that wished they had been carrying less ammo.

You mean the Hk with the largest LE contract in the country with a gun with even less ammo? We have seen enough jacked up 17 round M&P mags that I am very okay with giving up two rounds for long term reliability and solid function. How many gunfights have we seen with an early malfunction...most of which will be magazine or grip related. Luckily, I have trained a crap load of folks who have absolutely dominated gunfights, and been the first to interview many immediately afterwards, and not a single one said a thing about capacity because they solved the problem with marksmanship, gun handling, tactics and mindset instead of a "thing" that would win the fight for them, like that 17 round magazine.

By the way, Wayne and I are both running some Taylor Freelance +5's in a few training mags....so we can go to more capacity while maintaining the core magazines if it a huge issue. Also funny, I never remember complaints about this when the Beretta and P226's started dominating the market. The one case I know of where folks were running out of ammo with Beretta 92's the agency used it to justify .45's for better "performance". I think it was a ploy to get .45's, just like the 17 round requirement is a ploy now for "not HK".

stingray
05-16-2016, 01:47 PM
You mean the Hk with the largest LE contract in the country with a gun with even less ammo? We have seen enough jacked up 17 round M&P mags that I am very okay with giving up two rounds for long term reliability and solid function. How many gunfights have we seen with an early malfunction...most of which will be magazine or grip related. Luckily, I have trained a crap load of folks who have absolutely dominated gunfights, and been the first to interview many immediately afterwards, and not a single one said a thing about capacity because they solved the problem with marksmanship, gun handling, tactics and mindset instead of a "thing" that would win the fight for them, like that 17 round magazine.

By the way, Wayne and I are both running some Taylor Freelance +5's in a few training mags....so we can go to more capacity while maintaining the core magazines if it a huge issue. Also funny, I never remember complaints about this when the Beretta and P226's started dominating the market. The one case I know of where folks were running out of ammo with Beretta 92's the agency used it to justify .45's for better "performance". I think it was a ploy to get .45's, just like the 17 round requirement is a ploy now for "not HK".

Seems OHP and many others disagree with you.

I also seem to remember reading around here the Doc Roberts highly recommends the Glock 17 for duty carry. In fact he said something along the lines of it being the most highly vetted 9mm in use. I think the Glock 17 uses a 17 round magazine and does so quite successfully.

TCinVA
05-16-2016, 01:58 PM
Seems OHP and many others disagree with you.

I also seem to remember reading around here the Doc Roberts highly recommends the Glock 17 for duty carry. In fact he said something along the lines of it being the most highly vetted 9mm in use. I think the Glock 17 uses a 17 round magazine and does so quite successfully.

A lot of experienced people also recommend downloading Glock magazines by at least one round.

HCM
05-16-2016, 02:13 PM
The contract NYETI is referring to is the US Customs and Border Protrction (CBP) contract for 40 caliber LEM HK's including USP Compacts, P2000s. P2000sk's and a limited number of P30L's. The former immigration and naturalization service, which included the US border patrol, begin issuing HK USP compact LEM's around 1998 or 1999. CBP, of which the US border patrol is now a part, has over 40,000 armed law enforcement officers The majority of which are issued the HK P 2000.

I've been working with or around these guns for over 15 years, the only magazine related failures I'm aware of are the zipper welds on the back occasionally cracking after being repeatedly dropped onto concrete.

Border patrol agents are like Marines, if you lock them in a room with two bowling balls, they will break one and lose or impregnate the other. :p

These officers have done pretty much everything you can imagine to these guns, including one guy who put his gun in the oven only to have his wife put the oven on and roast his service weapon. I'd say they are pretty well vetted.

stingray
05-16-2016, 03:24 PM
The contract NYETI is referring to is the US Customs and Border Protrction (CBP) contract for 40 caliber LEM HK's including USP Compacts, P2000s. P2000sk's and a limited number of P30L's. The former immigration and naturalization service, which included the US border patrol, begin issuing HK USP compact LEM's around 1998 or 1999. CBP, of which the US border patrol is now a part, has over 40,000 armed law enforcement officers The majority of which are issued the HK P 2000.

I've been working with or around these guns for over 15 years, the only magazine related failures I'm aware of are the zipper welds on the back occasionally cracking after being repeatedly dropped onto concrete.

Border patrol agents are like Marines, if you lock them in a room with two bowling balls, they will break one and lose or impregnate the other. :p

These officers have done pretty much everything you can imagine to these guns, including one guy who put his gun in the oven only to have his wife put the oven on and roast his service weapon. I'd say they are pretty well vetted.

Interesting. But the VP9 was brought up and not the other H&K guns.

breakingtime91
05-16-2016, 03:31 PM
I find it interesting that people are still fighting about capacity.. Most people would be better of choosing which ever option works better for them if the difference is only two rounds.. If you think a g17 is the answer stingray great, no sweat. Carry a reload and learn to reload the gun and I'm gonna guess the difference of 2 rounds in the gun probably won't get you killed. I trust hk mags way more then glock but I wouldn't cry if I had to use either. Glock mags would just get more of a watchful eye.

Dagga Boy
05-16-2016, 04:18 PM
A lot of experienced people also recommend downloading Glock magazines by at least one round.

I have been doing this since 1988. Both Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn recommend this practice as well. Bunch of dumb asses who are losing a valuable round.

Dagga Boy
05-16-2016, 04:20 PM
Interesting. But the VP9 was brought up and not the other H&K guns.

VP9 uses the same mag as the P30/P30L. Border Patrol SOG just went with TF extensions instead of discounting the gun.

stingray
05-16-2016, 04:23 PM
I find it interesting that people are still fighting about capacity.. Most people would be better of choosing which ever option works better for them if the difference is only two rounds.. If you think a g17 is the answer stingray great, no sweat. Carry a reload and learn to reload the gun and I'm gonna guess the difference of 2 rounds in the gun probably won't get you killed. I trust hk mags way more then glock but I wouldn't cry if I had to use either. Glock mags would just get more of a watchful eye.

I don't put too much stock in any particular gun. As far as capacity goes, I even carry a S&W 642 and a couple of speed strips. What is interesting about this thread is it was suppose to be about the P320. But it seems the H&K fanboys take exception to the Sig. Drawing them out was simple enough to do by simply talking about the 15 shot magazine. Glock, S&W and Sig all managed to produce a reliable 17 shot magazine, shame with all their greatness H&K wasn't able to do the same. :-)

Dagga Boy
05-16-2016, 07:16 PM
I don't put too much stock in any particular gun. As far as capacity goes, I even carry a S&W 642 and a couple of speed strips. What is interesting about this thread is it was suppose to be about the P320. But it seems the H&K fanboys take exception to the Sig. Drawing them out was simple enough to do by simply talking about the 15 shot magazine. Glock, S&W and Sig all managed to produce a reliable 17 shot magazine, shame with all their greatness H&K wasn't able to do the same. :-)

It's sort of funny how you read into things. Let's see, I worked for SIG's west coast LE distributer before becoming a cop and actually went to my PD with a SiG order. Split a half a million rounds of .45 between multiple SIG and HK pistols and hold Armorers certificates on both. Shot a dude with a SiG. Won the Top Gun shoot for the largest county in the US in a match in which the host agency set it up to be very Glock centric to their issues guns...won every single course with a SiG P-226 and the overall title. Have shot over a quarter million rounds through Glock 9mm's. Ran a program with issue HK's, SIG's and Glocks. Owned my own police equipment store and sold extensive numbers of both SIG's and Glocks. So.....I may have a clue about various discussed service pistols, reliability in the service environment, law enforcement firearms acquisitions and testing processes. The point here is HK made a decision to produce the VP9/P30's with an enlarged magazine based dimensionally on the very successful P2000/USP Compact 9 mm dimensions with various improvements for enhanced long term reliability in the military and LE environment. HK made an engineering decision to build it as a 15 round magazine. No matter what you think about HK, from an engineering standpoint, they tend to build very reliable and heavily tested guns. It is why there are very few changes over the life of various guns. How many variants of Glock magazines are there? Why is that? Do I think HK could make a 17 round magazine....sure. Do I think there is a reason for the 15....yes, and I like the reliability aspect and durability. Wayne and I likely see more HK magazines mixed with other guns than most and are making an observation based on experience rather than "fan boyism". What is also funny, is in Dobbs case, he also has a ton of time on the M&P 9mm as well as being a very respected and recognized subject matter expert on the Glock as well. But, it's the Internet, so we can be labeled fan boys because it is a place where real experience doesn't mean much.
Then again, I was one of the first guys cutting down G17's to take 15 round 19 mags, so I am notorious for liking sub capable low capacity high capacity 9 mm's.
This comes down to something Wayne and I do know something about....LE purchasing. Fact is most of this is theater and most places set up testing to get what they want and be able to say they had a "fair" process. It is mostly b.s. As most places get what they want before the testing starts. The Sig 320 is a good gun that has a ton of appeal for most LE and LE agency's for a lot of reasons. I just wish we could either say "we want P320's" (or whatever gun they feel meets their needs) or do a neutral test and winner takes all. The idea of building a test or criteria around what the agency wants is silliness.

stingray
05-16-2016, 08:33 PM
It's sort of funny how you read into things. Let's see, I worked for SIG's west coast LE distributer before becoming a cop and actually went to my PD with a SiG order. Split a half a million rounds of .45 between multiple SIG and HK pistols and hold Armorers certificates on both. Shot a dude with a SiG. Won the Top Gun shoot for the largest county in the US in a match in which the host agency set it up to be very Glock centric to their issues guns...won every single course with a SiG P-226 and the overall title. Have shot over a quarter million rounds through Glock 9mm's. Ran a program with issue HK's, SIG's and Glocks. Owned my own police equipment store and sold extensive numbers of both SIG's and Glocks. So.....I may have a clue about various discussed service pistols, reliability in the service environment, law enforcement firearms acquisitions and testing processes. The point here is HK made a decision to produce the VP9/P30's with an enlarged magazine based dimensionally on the very successful P2000/USP Compact 9 mm dimensions with various improvements for enhanced long term reliability in the military and LE environment. HK made an engineering decision to build it as a 15 round magazine. No matter what you think about HK, from an engineering standpoint, they tend to build very reliable and heavily tested guns. It is why there are very few changes over the life of various guns. How many variants of Glock magazines are there? Why is that? Do I think HK could make a 17 round magazine....sure. Do I think there is a reason for the 15....yes, and I like the reliability aspect and durability. Wayne and I likely see more HK magazines mixed with other guns than most and are making an observation based on experience rather than "fan boyism". What is also funny, is in Dobbs case, he also has a ton of time on the M&P 9mm as well as being a very respected and recognized subject matter expert on the Glock as well. But, it's the Internet, so we can be labeled fan boys because it is a place where real experience doesn't mean much.
Then again, I was one of the first guys cutting down G17's to take 15 round 19 mags, so I am notorious for liking sub capable low capacity high capacity 9 mm's.
This comes down to something Wayne and I do know something about....LE purchasing. Fact is most of this is theater and most places set up testing to get what they want and be able to say they had a "fair" process. It is mostly b.s. As most places get what they want before the testing starts. The Sig 320 is a good gun that has a ton of appeal for most LE and LE agency's for a lot of reasons. I just wish we could either say "we want P320's" (or whatever gun they feel meets their needs) or do a neutral test and winner takes all. The idea of building a test or criteria around what the agency wants is silliness.



Why on earth would anyone want to build something the potential customer wants? Seems H&K thinks it silly too.

HCM
05-16-2016, 09:07 PM
Interesting. But the VP9 was brought up and not the other H&K guns.

However, your issue with the VP nine as stated is the 15 round magazine. That magazine design was developed for the HK USP compact and subsequently continued to the P 2000 series and then length and two full-size grip link for the P 30 and the VP9.

It was a proven design before the VP9 existed.

I don't carry a VP nine or rep for H and K, but in my experience it is the most reliable handgun magazine out there.

Dagga Boy
05-16-2016, 09:28 PM
Why on earth would anyone want to build something the potential customer wants? Seems H&K thinks it silly too.

The context was what brand or gun the agency (and it can come from various individuals in the agency) wants, not the capability. My point was, certain places simply want something and then do a "test" to confirm their choice. Various agencies (and especially the State ones) have some very deep loyalties to companies. Texas DPS and Sig, Calif. Highway Patrol and S&W are a couple examples and various Glock devotees. My point was, if an agency wants Sig P-320's....buy them. The silliness is doing a "test" to pick what you wanted in the first place. It is a joke. Get some samples, make sure it is good to go, and buy them. If the entire basis of your agency needs is it HAS to have 17 rounds as the primary criteria, that is a deal breaker for everything else I would contend that your priorities are totally screwed up, OR the gun you really, really want happens to have 17 rounds, and it is a method to get that gun and exclude things so you can tell people who may question the decision that you picked what you did because nothing else could meet your criteria. I would just rather they are honest. Heck, I just had an agency use their E/O Tech refund to buy........E/O Techs. Think there would ever be a fair test there?
Some places really want a fair test and are open to anything. There will always be favorites, but the reality is some folks are open to testing criteria that is set up to be more competitive than a process used to simply get what you wanted before the "test" started.

I am curious stingray, how you are doing agency selection. Simple purchase, or open or closed testing? Who is writing the criteria, and what are you basing it on?

stingray
05-16-2016, 09:41 PM
The context was what brand or gun the agency (and it can come from various individuals in the agency) wants, not the capability. My point was, certain places simply want something and then do a "test" to confirm their choice. Various agencies (and especially the State ones) have some very deep loyalties to companies. Texas DPS and Sig, Calif. Highway Patrol and S&W are a couple examples and various Glock devotees. My point was, if an agency wants Sig P-320's....buy them. The silliness is doing a "test" to pick what you wanted in the first place. It is a joke. Get some samples, make sure it is good to go, and buy them. If the entire basis of your agency needs is it HAS to have 17 rounds as the primary criteria, that is a deal breaker for everything else I would contend that your priorities are totally screwed up, OR the gun you really, really want happens to have 17 rounds, and it is a method to get that gun and exclude things so you can tell people who may question the decision that you picked what you did because nothing else could meet your criteria. I would just rather they are honest. Heck, I just had an agency use their E/O Tech refund to buy........E/O Techs. Think there would ever be a fair test there?
Some places really want a fair test and are open to anything. There will always be favorites, but the reality is some folks are open to testing criteria that is set up to be more competitive than a process used to simply get what you wanted before the "test" started.

I am curious stingray, how you are doing agency selection. Simple purchase, or open or closed testing? Who is writing the criteria, and what are you basing it on?

I can pretty much agree with your statement. We all know the why of the testing. As to your question, I have no idea what you are asking. Sorry.......

FNFAN
05-16-2016, 09:41 PM
Why on earth would anyone want to build something the potential customer wants? Seems H&K thinks it silly too.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b314/Detonics/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps6he1efwa.jpg

Dagga Boy
05-16-2016, 10:07 PM
I can pretty much agree with your statement. We all know the why of the testing. As to your question, I have no idea what you are asking. Sorry.......

When you are conducting agency testing, what process do you use? Do you just buy what a group tasked with the purchase wants. Do you build a test with no criteria? If you are using a criteria based test, who is writing it and what are you basing that criteria on?

HCM
05-16-2016, 10:39 PM
The context was what brand or gun the agency (and it can come from various individuals in the agency) wants, not the capability. My point was, certain places simply want something and then do a "test" to confirm their choice. Various agencies (and especially the State ones) have some very deep loyalties to companies. Texas DPS and Sig, Calif. Highway Patrol and S&W are a couple examples and various Glock devotees. My point was, if an agency wants Sig P-320's....buy them. The silliness is doing a "test" to pick what you wanted in the first place. It is a joke. Get some samples, make sure it is good to go, and buy them. If the entire basis of your agency needs is it HAS to have 17 rounds as the primary criteria, that is a deal breaker for everything else I would contend that your priorities are totally screwed up, OR the gun you really, really want happens to have 17 rounds, and it is a method to get that gun and exclude things so you can tell people who may question the decision that you picked what you did because nothing else could meet your criteria. I would just rather they are honest. Heck, I just had an agency use their E/O Tech refund to buy........E/O Techs. Think there would ever be a fair test there?
Some places really want a fair test and are open to anything. There will always be favorites, but the reality is some folks are open to testing criteria that is set up to be more competitive than a process used to simply get what you wanted before the "test" started.

I am curious stingray, how you are doing agency selection. Simple purchase, or open or closed testing? Who is writing the criteria, and what are you basing it on?

The Texas DPS has been carrying six since they transitioned from Smith and Wesson revolver's in the late 80s or early 90s.

After the Texas DPS's disastrous dalliance with Smith and Wesson M&Ps, I can understand them being a little gun shy and wanting to stay with a known and familiar supplier.

breakingtime91
05-16-2016, 10:47 PM
I don't put too much stock in any particular gun. As far as capacity goes, I even carry a S&W 642 and a couple of speed strips. What is interesting about this thread is it was suppose to be about the P320. But it seems the H&K fanboys take exception to the Sig. Drawing them out was simple enough to do by simply talking about the 15 shot magazine. Glock, S&W and Sig all managed to produce a reliable 17 shot magazine, shame with all their greatness H&K wasn't able to do the same. :-)

you are a pretty unfriendly person but I'll bite. The point the "fan boys" are making is that hk mags will outlast most other mags because they left the space (two less rounds) so the spring in the magazine doesn't wear as fast. You keep saying they couldn't figure out how to make a reliable 17 shot magazine, that is just plain silliness on your part. Nyeti has already explained this to you but your trolling too hard to actually take in what he is saying. As someone who is apparently okay carrying a j-frame, your pretty pissed off that anyone would suggest that 15 rounds in the gun may be ok for a gun fight.

Ed L
05-16-2016, 10:59 PM
The 15 round capacity is the only head scratcher for me with e VP9. The price point is even a refreshing look from H&K.

I would gladly trade two rounds for greater reliability.

I have experienced problems with 17 round M&P9 mags where the rounds got wedged together inside the magazine. It seems in order to allow the mags to fit 17 rounds, the mags are a tiny bit too wide, and thus allow two rounds to sometimes get wedged together under certain circumstances.

I have had this happen with four or five different magazines, even after adding stronger ISMI springs to the magazine. I have also had this happen with different ammo, including Black Hills and Winchester Ranger.


Below are some pictures I took of what it looked like. A simple rap on the bottom did nothing. It is hard to tell what is going on, but bear in mind, the rounds are locked together about an inch down into the magazine and got that way during normal magazine loading.

Below are pictures that I have taken of the wedged rounds in M&P9 magazines:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag1.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag2.jpg

Dagga Boy
05-16-2016, 11:19 PM
The Texas DPS has been carrying six since they transitioned from Smith and Wesson revolver's in the late 80s or early 90s.

After the Texas DPS's disastrous dalliance with Smith and Wesson M&Ps, I can understand them being a little gun shy and wanting to stay with a known and familiar supplier.

Which makes a couple points. Some politics were involved in the M&P thing, and it bit them....even with 17 round magazines. Also pointed to post sale support issues, which are an unknown with a new brand. In cases like DPS and Dallas PD, the SiG regional support for those major customers has outweighed any of SiGs factory issues and QC issues. Often, personnel doing the servicing and sales is a huge factor. During the "bad" HK customer service years, I was doing okay because I got to know some good people within the organization at HK to help wade around the internal issues. There is a lot of factors, which is why I selected firearms for agency issue the way I did. It will be interesting to see how stingray does agency selection as he seems to have quite a few observations about the process, so I am curious about his experience depth on the subject.

Ed l, thanks for the pictures. We have seen this a lot with various mags, but more regularly with the M&P's. I remember you had several of these issues in one class.

breakingtime91
05-17-2016, 12:29 AM
I would gladly trade two rounds for greater reliability.

I have experienced problems with 17 round M&P9 mags where the rounds got wedged together inside the magazine. It seems in order to allow the mags to fit 17 rounds, the mags are a tiny bit too wide, and thus allow two rounds to sometimes get wedged together under certain circumstances.

I have had this happen with four or five different magazines, even after adding stronger ISMI springs to the magazine. I have also had this happen with different ammo, including Black Hills and Winchester Ranger.


Below are some pictures I took of what it looked like. A simple rap on the bottom did nothing. It is hard to tell what is going on, but bear in mind, the rounds are locked together about an inch down into the magazine and got that way during normal magazine loading.

Below are pictures that I have taken of the wedged rounds in M&P9 magazines:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag1.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag2.jpg

but but, everyone told me 17 rounds was better!

jnc36rcpd
05-17-2016, 12:02 PM
I currently pack an FNS-9 that was chosen by popular vote. We looked at SigSauer (229, 229DAK, and 250), S&W (M&P40 and M&P40C) Glock (22 and 23) and FN (FNS and FNX). Various officers shot drills with the weapons. Some were rejected outright and most seemed to like Glock, M&P, and FNS. That said, the people who liked the FNS really liked it and their very high scores for the weapon weighted the survey in favor of the FNS. I cannot speak to why HK, Beretta, Ruger, Walther, and other manufacturers were not included in the test. Then we decided that we should go with 9mm.

The FNS-9 has been a challenge. The weapons malfunction with some frequency, especially with the issue TLR-1 HL attached. The sights require alignment of the dots rather than the posts. Two weapons had to besent back to have night sights replaced. One gun went down completely when dropped on concrete and awaits return to the factory. The high profile ambidextrous magazine release tends to dump the magazine if bumped on either side. On the other hand, some have found the magazine release on the opposite side of the gun prevents the mag from dropping smoothly. FN does produce a low profile magazine release which was on the FNS-9c that we evaluated for plainclothes use, but that required me to put the weapon on a bench to eject the magazine. (When two police/gun magazine reviews mention the issue of the magazine release, you know a gun has problems.) To their credit, FN America just replaced all of our barrels and magazines with new designs (albeit I was surprised that they didn't realize that a contract agency with problems had the old barrels.) That said, I am hopeful the reliability problems have been fixed. The next range date will tell.

Clearly, we did not do things the right way. That said, city purchasing regulations preclude us from a major purchase based solely on the chief's or the firearms instructors' preference. nyeti (or others), any suggestions regarding how to write specifications for new weapons other than designing the proposal around a preference? We did that when we recommended the 9mm SIG 226 in the late eighties and nearly ended up with Berettas.

Thanks and be safe.

GJM
05-17-2016, 12:10 PM
I am not Darryl or LE, but I would specify excluding from consideration any model that hasn't been out X years, and shipped X thousand units.

I figured out most of the problems you are experiencing with the FNS, with my sample of three or four of them, in a few months of using them. A problem with a new gun for a department is that you become the beta tester, rather than the normal early adopters who are messing with these things for fun instead of staking lives on them.

HCM
05-17-2016, 01:14 PM
I currently pack an FNS-9 that was chosen by popular vote. We looked at SigSauer (229, 229DAK, and 250), S&W (M&P40 and M&P40C) Glock (22 and 23) and FN (FNS and FNX). Various officers shot drills with the weapons. Some were rejected outright and most seemed to like Glock, M&P, and FNS. That said, the people who liked the FNS really liked it and their very high scores for the weapon weighted the survey in favor of the FNS. I cannot speak to why HK, Beretta, Ruger, Walther, and other manufacturers were not included in the test. Then we decided that we should go with 9mm.

The FNS-9 has been a challenge. The weapons malfunction with some frequency, especially with the issue TLR-1 HL attached. The sights require alignment of the dots rather than the posts. Two weapons had to besent back to have night sights replaced. One gun went down completely when dropped on concrete and awaits return to the factory. The high profile ambidextrous magazine release tends to dump the magazine if bumped on either side. On the other hand, some have found the magazine release on the opposite side of the gun prevents the mag from dropping smoothly. FN does produce a low profile magazine release which was on the FNS-9c that we evaluated for plainclothes use, but that required me to put the weapon on a bench to eject the magazine. (When two police/gun magazine reviews mention the issue of the magazine release, you know a gun has problems.) To their credit, FN America just replaced all of our barrels and magazines with new designs (albeit I was surprised that they didn't realize that a contract agency with problems had the old barrels.) That said, I am hopeful the reliability problems have been fixed. The next range date will tell.

Clearly, we did not do things the right way. That said, city purchasing regulations preclude us from a major purchase based solely on the chief's or the firearms instructors' preference. nyeti (or others), any suggestions regarding how to write specifications for new weapons other than designing the proposal around a preference? We did that when we recommended the 9mm SIG 226 in the late eighties and nearly ended up with Berettas.

Thanks and be safe.

Here is the current DHS/ ICE solicitation (RFI) for 9mm handguns: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=18c141b6696370748ca403a9802fd888&tab=core&_cview=0

Hopefully it can serve as a starting point for what you want. It's similar but more inclusive than the FBI RFI.

There is a PF thread here about it which includes some good info from ToddG regarding agency procurement issues and processes.

https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-15533.html

Thewe tests, as well as the FBI tests are still on going. It may be worth waiting a little bit to see the results. DHS ice will be putting 10,000 rounds each through 10 examples of each model. Five with weapon mounted lights attached and five without, for a total of 100,000 rounds per model. So for example, if Glock submits both a model 19 and 17, that will be 200,000 rounds of duty ammo. DHS ice is currently issuing the TLR-1 WML.

Maybe you could use the weapons which pass the DHS/ice testing and FBI testing as your starting point. There are usually multiple guns which pass the requirements, even though only one gets the contract.

jnc36rcpd
05-17-2016, 04:46 PM
Thanks for the responses, guys. I'm hopeful, though not certain, that the replacement parts will improve performance of the pistol to acceptable levels. If not, I guess I have one more departmental pistol transition in me.

GJM, your suggestion of excluding any weapon that didn't have a track record is an excellent one. I have great respect for the chief in Cpo;by, Kansas, who ordered the first agency Glocks many years ago, but I agree on the risks of being a beta tester.

Dagga Boy
05-17-2016, 06:26 PM
I currently pack an FNS-9 that was chosen by popular vote. We looked at SigSauer (229, 229DAK, and 250), S&W (M&P40 and M&P40C) Glock (22 and 23) and FN (FNS and FNX). Various officers shot drills with the weapons. Some were rejected outright and most seemed to like Glock, M&P, and FNS. That said, the people who liked the FNS really liked it and their very high scores for the weapon weighted the survey in favor of the FNS. I cannot speak to why HK, Beretta, Ruger, Walther, and other manufacturers were not included in the test. Then we decided that we should go with 9mm.

The FNS-9 has been a challenge. The weapons malfunction with some frequency, especially with the issue TLR-1 HL attached. The sights require alignment of the dots rather than the posts. Two weapons had to besent back to have night sights replaced. One gun went down completely when dropped on concrete and awaits return to the factory. The high profile ambidextrous magazine release tends to dump the magazine if bumped on either side. On the other hand, some have found the magazine release on the opposite side of the gun prevents the mag from dropping smoothly. FN does produce a low profile magazine release which was on the FNS-9c that we evaluated for plainclothes use, but that required me to put the weapon on a bench to eject the magazine. (When two police/gun magazine reviews mention the issue of the magazine release, you know a gun has problems.) To their credit, FN America just replaced all of our barrels and magazines with new designs (albeit I was surprised that they didn't realize that a contract agency with problems had the old barrels.) That said, I am hopeful the reliability problems have been fixed. The next range date will tell.

Clearly, we did not do things the right way. That said, city purchasing regulations preclude us from a major purchase based solely on the chief's or the firearms instructors' preference. nyeti (or others), any suggestions regarding how to write specifications for new weapons other than designing the proposal around a preference? We did that when we recommended the 9mm SIG 226 in the late eighties and nearly ended up with Berettas.

Thanks and be safe.

Welcome to the real world issues. I am still waiting for snarkray's enlightenment on the subject, as he has some deep knowledge of police testing and selection that HK seems to be missing.....even though they manage to do very well in pure open endurance testing.
Popular vote tends to get you guns selected by people who don't know a thing about guns. I call it "tail wagging the dog". Most agency's, which are small, don't have the ability to do full endurance testing on several guns. They also often lack any real SME's on firearms (although a ton think they are, including all executive staff folks). The problem with "vote guns" is many factors like logistics, training, support, longevity, and long term reliability are never factors. Does officer Suzy or Steve who qualify once a year because they have to really have anything useful to input into selection of an agency firearm? What these people want is really not relevant in my world as the idea of these folks picking pistols is as stupid as me voting on computer systems.
How we got USP45's is actually a good example of something that went well. The gun was literally brand new. It had several things we were looking for to replace our P220's on SWAT that were at the point of needing replacement. Increased capacity, a rail to mount a light (the USP UTL was pretty high speed in 1995), multi function capability of both DA/SA and could be safed and cocked into single action. You could use the safety for administrative functions as well. Easy to replace night sights, etc. My shooting partner and I bought two of the first 500 guns in the country, and started carrying them. We were shooting over 50,000 rounds a year consistently and wearing out SiGs fairly regularly. In 6 month's we had a very good idea about the abilities of those two guns that were off the shelf purchased. We talked to the team, let the guys shoot them with some good background and experience with them and traded our SIGs in for them. They survived and worked well over a long period for a high use and abused service pistol. The next time around, the fight was over 1911's, which I told my guys was fine, but I would need to go to a full time Armorer instructor capacity to keep them running and the brass canned that idea. The instructor cadre wanted to go to Glock 17's or 18's for a pure shooting and logistics reason....but the guys wanted 45. We were already seeing the Glock 45's were not all they were made out to be in both patrol issue and with surrounding agency's, and the Executive management decided to go to a vote (which I was against). Turns out...team voted to stay with USP45's with a switch to the LEM. Basically, because of the success of how we selected them originally, they were selected again because we saw that our original selection resulted in ten years of great performance in harsh conditions. Part of this was my reputation was invested in the initial purchase, which also made me vested in the logistics side. I learned to work with HK on support, I learned how to work their internal system, and the guns were very problem free. They performed well in the field, and really showed how good they were when we started using +P 230 gr. Federal HST in quantity that was tearing up both 1911's and Glock 21's. As GJM found out, the USP recoil system is very good for high performance ammunition. The ability to run a huge round count through a couple of off the shelf guns before you buy them, and to use them in duty rigs in the field tells you a lot. This is especially true when the folks using them are the ones who will have to teach and maintain them. You find out if there are magazine issues, if you can figure out a different magazine release system, if you will need to alter how the gun is gripped, if they break parts or not and how responsive the factory is.
About the same time, another agency had switched to G21's. Luckily they had the right guy who pushed the program when they had some serious issues early. Again, having a gun guy with their butt on the line worked out as well as at the time, Glock was responsive to fixing the issues and resulted in the early changes to the 21's. It was example of having the right folks involved when things go bad helps to get them resolved. Had those problem guns been the result of some vote or goofy selection and the firearms staff who the problems fell on when it went bad had not been invested in the process, I doubt they would have had the same enthusiasm and intensity in forcing Glock to fix the issues, as opposed to going into "I told you so" mode.

GJM
05-17-2016, 07:01 PM
Here is the short form selection process that works for almost any size organization. If you are on a budget and/or want 9mm, buy the Gen 4 17 and Safariland holsters. If you want .40 or .45, buy HK. :)

Hauptmann
05-17-2016, 09:09 PM
If you want .40 or .45, buy HK. :)

I'd go with that advice too.

Dagga Boy
05-17-2016, 09:41 PM
Here is the short form selection process that works for almost any size organization. If you are on a budget and/or want 9mm, buy the Gen 4 17 and Safariland holsters. If you want .40 or .45, buy HK. :)

Mine was actually very similar for a very long time, except it was Gen 3 Glock (which they screwed up.....and I thought that was impossible), HK in .45 and just don't buy .40's.

Today, it would be G17 or 19 if money is an issue...and plan to be underwhelmed, Sig 320 for a mid range, and the VP9 as top of the food chain, especially if you just leave them alone as a dead stock gun. In .40...this is where I would say just pony up to the VP40, and in .45....about the same list as the 9mm....Glock, Sig or HK.

Nephrology
05-18-2016, 07:52 AM
Mine was actually very similar for a very long time, except it was Gen 3 Glock (which they screwed up.....and I thought that was impossible), HK in .45 and just don't buy .40's.

Today, it would be G17 or 19 if money is an issue...and plan to be underwhelmed, Sig 320 for a mid range, and the VP9 as top of the food chain, especially if you just leave them alone as a dead stock gun. In .40...this is where I would say just pony up to the VP40, and in .45....about the same list as the 9mm....Glock, Sig or HK.

I am no police dept and wouldn't ever pretend to have the same degree of experience trying to break guns as you do, but I have actually found my recent Gen4 9mms and my Gen4 G35 to be much more accurate and reliable with fewer BTF issues than my older "golden era" 3rd gen guns (2007 & 2009 era manf G19 and G17 respectively). My brief adventure with a Gen4 Glock 23, however, was utter disappointment.

Jay Cunningham
05-18-2016, 08:22 AM
Welcome to the real world issues. I am still waiting for snarkray's enlightenment on the subject, as he has some deep knowledge of police testing and selection that HK seems to be missing.....even though they manage to do very well in pure open endurance testing.
Popular vote tends to get you guns selected by people who don't know a thing about guns. I call it "tail wagging the dog". Most agency's, which are small, don't have the ability to do full endurance testing on several guns. They also often lack any real SME's on firearms (although a ton think they are, including all executive staff folks). The problem with "vote guns" is many factors like logistics, training, support, longevity, and long term reliability are never factors. Does officer Suzy or Steve who qualify once a year because they have to really have anything useful to input into selection of an agency firearm? What these people want is really not relevant in my world as the idea of these folks picking pistols is as stupid as me voting on computer systems.
How we got USP45's is actually a good example of something that went well. The gun was literally brand new. It had several things we were looking for to replace our P220's on SWAT that were at the point of needing replacement. Increased capacity, a rail to mount a light (the USP UTL was pretty high speed in 1995), multi function capability of both DA/SA and could be safed and cocked into single action. You could use the safety for administrative functions as well. Easy to replace night sights, etc. My shooting partner and I bought two of the first 500 guns in the country, and started carrying them. We were shooting over 50,000 rounds a year consistently and wearing out SiGs fairly regularly. In 6 month's we had a very good idea about the abilities of those two guns that were off the shelf purchased. We talked to the team, let the guys shoot them with some good background and experience with them and traded our SIGs in for them. They survived and worked well over a long period for a high use and abused service pistol. The next time around, the fight was over 1911's, which I told my guys was fine, but I would need to go to a full time Armorer instructor capacity to keep them running and the brass canned that idea. The instructor cadre wanted to go to Glock 17's or 18's for a pure shooting and logistics reason....but the guys wanted 45. We were already seeing the Glock 45's were not all they were made out to be in both patrol issue and with surrounding agency's, and the Executive management decided to go to a vote (which I was against). Turns out...team voted to stay with USP45's with a switch to the LEM. Basically, because of the success of how we selected them originally, they were selected again because we saw that our original selection resulted in ten years of great performance in harsh conditions. Part of this was my reputation was invested in the initial purchase, which also made me vested in the logistics side. I learned to work with HK on support, I learned how to work their internal system, and the guns were very problem free. They performed well in the field, and really showed how good they were when we started using +P 230 gr. Federal HST in quantity that was tearing up both 1911's and Glock 21's. As GJM found out, the USP recoil system is very good for high performance ammunition. The ability to run a huge round count through a couple of off the shelf guns before you buy them, and to use them in duty rigs in the field tells you a lot. This is especially true when the folks using them are the ones who will have to teach and maintain them. You find out if there are magazine issues, if you can figure out a different magazine release system, if you will need to alter how the gun is gripped, if they break parts or not and how responsive the factory is.
About the same time, another agency had switched to G21's. Luckily they had the right guy who pushed the program when they had some serious issues early. Again, having a gun guy with their butt on the line worked out as well as at the time, Glock was responsive to fixing the issues and resulted in the early changes to the 21's. It was example of having the right folks involved when things go bad helps to get them resolved. Had those problem guns been the result of some vote or goofy selection and the firearms staff who the problems fell on when it went bad had not been invested in the process, I doubt they would have had the same enthusiasm and intensity in forcing Glock to fix the issues, as opposed to going into "I told you so" mode.


Snarkray? Really?

Dagga Boy
05-18-2016, 08:25 AM
Snarkray? Really?

yeah....really.

GJM
05-18-2016, 08:50 AM
Here is a piece of advice for Snarkray. While it may seem to defy the laws of nature, I have learned, the hard way, that it is almost impossible to win an Internet fight with Darryl. In terms of dealing with doubters, his win rate is right up there with the Donald. It is much better to form an alliance with him and then get cool knives and other stuff. :)

Dagga Boy
05-18-2016, 10:14 AM
I am no police dept and wouldn't ever pretend to have the same degree of experience trying to break guns as you do, but I have actually found my recent Gen4 9mms and my Gen4 G35 to be much more accurate and reliable with fewer BTF issues than my older "golden era" 3rd gen guns (2007 & 2009 era manf G19 and G17 respectively). My brief adventure with a Gen4 Glock 23, however, was utter disappointment.

I have heard that the latest Gen. 4 variant whatever they are on now Glocks are good....especially with an older trigger bar. The older Gen 3 guns were REALLY good for a service pistol, as I have several very high round count guns that would have given long service life's as police issue guns. Somewhere in the Gen 3's and into e early Gen 4's Glock went full retard on the guns. Massive issues with brass to the face, horrific extraction, and ejection issues, and a slew of other issues with the early Gen 4's. It seems like the newest stuff is much better, but I rage quit Glock when they managed to screw up the Gen 3 and then had to deal with Glocks "you're limp wristing it" customer service, and went to HK in the 9mm. For those who think I am Glock hater....at that point I had fully converted to the Glock 9mm and had over 250,000 rounds through several Glock 9 mm's and had carried them as duty guns and got them approved at my old agency.

The problem with most of these companies is consistency depending on management. Some genius wants to save 8 cents on an extractor or other part and utter chaos can occur. Years of internal policies and incestual back slapping at how smart they are will bring things like the .45 GAP (which I liked, but nobody wanted and should have been their .40 platform) or the SIG P250 (which I also liked but they could not actually execute properly), rather consistent production of what they do well.

Wondering Beard
05-18-2016, 11:29 AM
the VP9 as top of the food chain, especially if you just leave them alone as a dead stock gun.

Can you detail a bit more what you mean by that? My VP9 is a very nice gun, but I had to go to a couple of different shops to find one with a trigger that wasn't so incredibly gritty, and I don't know that I would call it "top of the food chain". Then again, it's my only HK pistol (only HK gun actually) and I don't have your experience with both HKs and police use of pistols.

This is a genuine question, I would like to understand the qualities you consider make a "top of the food chain" gun.

Al T.
05-18-2016, 11:40 AM
South Carolina HP looked at the SIG 320 a few weeks ago.. No results, but I was pleased that the SCHP actually had their weakest shooters shoot. I suspect that's a better test of the platform than having a bunch of folks who would have shot 100% with most anything.

Dagga Boy
05-18-2016, 12:37 PM
Can you detail a bit more what you mean by that? My VP9 is a very nice gun, but I had to go to a couple of different shops to find one with a trigger that wasn't so incredibly gritty, and I don't know that I would call it "top of the food chain". Then again, it's my only HK pistol (only HK gun actually) and I don't have your experience with both HKs and police use of pistols.

This is a genuine question, I would like to understand the qualities you consider make a "top of the food chain" gun.

HK has always had a very high level of QC on components and materials as well as the simple process of how they do things that is a lot of the reason why they tend to be expensive. The result is in most cases they tend to be very problem free and do not need a ton of attention. The gritty trigger...all of mine seemed to start that way and wore in to being great shooters. I was actually initially disturbed by one enough that I was going to trade it to another gun writer who had a good one in a gun that needed to be returned to HK, but I actually shot the one with the not as good trigger better. Many of these things are hard to gauge in a shop, with a hand selected or already broken in demo gun. It is why I like the idea of test guns bought of the shelf and then shoot the heck out of them in a variety of conditions to really gauge exactly what you are getting.
Wayne and I both have a ton of rounds and time on many different service guns and we have simply found that the VP9 still amazes us at its accuracy capability,consistency and reliability over time, and our guns are dead stock right down to the sights at this point. Are they for everyone....?..nope. I have said that the P-320 is probably a great service pistol for a lot of people that meets a bunch of their needs, or wants, which is why I do not understand the whole idea of building test criteria around it. I get a bit suspicious of that. If you want the gun enough to build a criteria around it, then just buy them and move on. Much of this becomes Kibuki theater. I also think there are many places that would do well with the VP-9. The real solution is to allow a number of guns to be approved and let your folks pick what they want, or have them fitted by range staff based on which of the choices they shoot the best.

stingray
05-18-2016, 01:47 PM
South Carolina HP looked at the SIG 320 a few weeks ago.. No results, but I was pleased that the SCHP actually had their weakest shooters shoot. I suspect that's a better test of the platform than having a bunch of folks who would have shot 100% with most anything.

Last I heard, they were carrying Glock 37's. Any word what caliber they were looking at?

Al T.
05-18-2016, 05:19 PM
Supposedly 9mm. I have zero insider knowledge, so take it for what it's worth. :) I do know that during the ammo crunch, they were hurting for .45 GAP ammo, both training and duty. May have some residual thoughts about being tied to boutique ammo.......

Wondering Beard
05-18-2016, 05:29 PM
HK has always had a very high level of QC on components and materials as well as the simple process of how they do things that is a lot of the reason why they tend to be expensive. The result is in most cases they tend to be very problem free and do not need a ton of attention. The gritty trigger...all of mine seemed to start that way and wore in to being great shooters. I was actually initially disturbed by one enough that I was going to trade it to another gun writer who had a good one in a gun that needed to be returned to HK, but I actually shot the one with the not as good trigger better. Many of these things are hard to gauge in a shop, with a hand selected or already broken in demo gun. It is why I like the idea of test guns bought of the shelf and then shoot the heck out of them in a variety of conditions to really gauge exactly what you are getting.
Wayne and I both have a ton of rounds and time on many different service guns and we have simply found that the VP9 still amazes us at its accuracy capability,consistency and reliability over time, and our guns are dead stock right down to the sights at this point. Are they for everyone....?..nope. I have said that the P-320 is probably a great service pistol for a lot of people that meets a bunch of their needs, or wants, which is why I do not understand the whole idea of building test criteria around it. I get a bit suspicious of that. If you want the gun enough to build a criteria around it, then just buy them and move on. Much of this becomes Kibuki theater. I also think there are many places that would do well with the VP-9. The real solution is to allow a number of guns to be approved and let your folks pick what they want, or have them fitted by range staff based on which of the choices they shoot the best.

Thanks Nyeti.

When I first heard of the VP9, all I heard was how great the trigger was, so you can imagine my disappointment with the grittiness in the first ones I handled at the shop. It turned me off the gun for several months until I came across one that had a rather smooth trigger pull by happenstance. It hasn't replaced my Glocks for carry purposes (ergos are quite different and the takeup feels much shorter than on the Glock) but I should put my range work on it, at least to know it better.

As to the proper adoption of guns by an agency, I am so ignorant of it all that I'll just sit back and read and learn.

11B10
05-18-2016, 06:41 PM
I have heard that the latest Gen. 4 variant whatever they are on now Glocks are good....especially with an older trigger bar. The older Gen 3 guns were REALLY good for a service pistol, as I have several very high round count guns that would have given long service life's as police issue guns. Somewhere in the Gen 3's and into e early Gen 4's Glock went full retard on the guns. Massive issues with brass to the face, horrific extraction, and ejection issues, and a slew of other issues with the early Gen 4's. It seems like the newest stuff is much better, but I rage quit Glock when they managed to screw up the Gen 3 and then had to deal with Glocks "you're limp wristing it" customer service, and went to HK in the 9mm. For those who think I am Glock hater....at that point I had fully converted to the Glock 9mm and had over 250,000 rounds through several Glock 9 mm's and had carried them as duty guns and got them approved at my old agency.

The problem with most of these companies is consistency depending on management. Some genius wants to save 8 cents on an extractor or other part and utter chaos can occur. Years of internal policies and incestual back slapping at how smart they are will bring things like the .45 GAP (which I liked, but nobody wanted and should have been their .40 platform) or the SIG P250 (which I also liked but they could not actually execute properly), rather consistent production of what they do well.


Nyeti - I had a 30S - actually, TWO 30S's. The first one did something that Glock said they had never seen before - four months after I bought it, the depressor extractor plunger and spring, for some unknown reason, became literally "as one," becoming so encrusted they could not be separated (for lack of a better word) - by me, the FFL, or Glock. The damn thing still ran perfectly with live and dry fire! No "symptoms" at all - I only found the problem because I got curious about detail stripping the slide. Glock called me - spent the better part of an hour on the phone with me, going over all my cleaning methods/materials, etc. - guy kept telling me to slow down as he was taking notes. The gent who called me, after apologizing profusely, assured me "this was not what Glock is about." They finally sent me a replacement pistol - had it in two days. It ran perfectly.

Dagga Boy
05-18-2016, 10:28 PM
Nyeti - I had a 30S - actually, TWO 30S's. The first one did something that Glock said they had never seen before - four months after I bought it, the depressor extractor plunger and spring, for some unknown reason, became literally "as one," becoming so encrusted they could not be separated (for lack of a better word) - by me, the FFL, or Glock. The damn thing still ran perfectly with live and dry fire! No "symptoms" at all - I only found the problem because I got curious about detail stripping the slide. Glock called me - spent the better part of an hour on the phone with me, going over all my cleaning methods/materials, etc. - guy kept telling me to slow down as he was taking notes. The gent who called me, after apologizing profusely, assured me "this was not what Glock is about." They finally sent me a replacement pistol - had it in two days. It ran perfectly.

And this is a single gun. Now start thinking about managing hundreds of guns given to people in which a majority could give a heck about them. Often improperly or simply not cleaned. Lack of lubrication, or use of things like WD 40. The guns often have the same round loaded and unloaded over and over. Magazine maintenance is worse than on the guns. When you start to look at these factors, it should be an indicator that the selection of service guns is a interesting prospect, and can go badly any number of ways.

This is why in this thread, in this section of the forum I get fairly intolerant of commentary from folks who have not a clue about what it takes to manage large quantities of guns being used daily. These are not taken out of the safe for a training day hard use, they are sitting in holsters directing traffic in the rain for hours. They are exposed to all manner of debris. They are constantly being banged into hard objects. They get dropped fairly often. They get shot by folks with often terrible grips. They are exposed to being run with an Ammo gammut that runs from the lowest bid dirty and anemic training ammunition to full power premium duty loads. Many have various lights, lasers and accessories mounted to them......some good and some terrible. There is a ton going on in terms of how to select guns that will survive in these environmental conditions and with a majority of the users fairly clueless to the care and feeding process.

In the original spirit of this thread, I will simply say that when a good number of your officers likely have their magazines in their pouches facing the wrong direction, worrying about a 17 round magazine versus a 15 round magazine is putting priorities in the wrong place on what is important.

Duelist
05-19-2016, 05:11 AM
Snip

In the original spirit of this thread, I will simply say that when a good number of your officers likely have their magazines in their pouches facing the wrong direction, worrying about a 17 round magazine versus a 15 round magazine is putting priorities in the wrong place on what is important.

LOL. Laughing and shaking the bed at 3am is not conducive to domestic harmony...

stingray
05-19-2016, 07:36 AM
Welcome to the real world issues. I am still waiting for snarkray's enlightenment on the subject, as he has some deep knowledge of police testing and selection that HK seems to be missing.....even though they manage to do very well in pure open endurance testing.
Popular vote tends to get you guns selected by people who don't know a thing about guns. I call it "tail wagging the dog". Most agency's, which are small, don't have the ability to do full endurance testing on several guns. They also often lack any real SME's on firearms (although a ton think they are, including all executive staff folks). The problem with "vote guns" is many factors like logistics, training, support, longevity, and long term reliability are never factors. Does officer Suzy or Steve who qualify once a year because they have to really have anything useful to input into selection of an agency firearm? What these people want is really not relevant in my world as the idea of these folks picking pistols is as stupid as me voting on computer systems.
How we got USP45's is actually a good example of something that went well. The gun was literally brand new. It had several things we were looking for to replace our P220's on SWAT that were at the point of needing replacement. Increased capacity, a rail to mount a light (the USP UTL was pretty high speed in 1995), multi function capability of both DA/SA and could be safed and cocked into single action. You could use the safety for administrative functions as well. Easy to replace night sights, etc. My shooting partner and I bought two of the first 500 guns in the country, and started carrying them. We were shooting over 50,000 rounds a year consistently and wearing out SiGs fairly regularly. In 6 month's we had a very good idea about the abilities of those two guns that were off the shelf purchased. We talked to the team, let the guys shoot them with some good background and experience with them and traded our SIGs in for them. They survived and worked well over a long period for a high use and abused service pistol. The next time around, the fight was over 1911's, which I told my guys was fine, but I would need to go to a full time Armorer instructor capacity to keep them running and the brass canned that idea. The instructor cadre wanted to go to Glock 17's or 18's for a pure shooting and logistics reason....but the guys wanted 45. We were already seeing the Glock 45's were not all they were made out to be in both patrol issue and with surrounding agency's, and the Executive management decided to go to a vote (which I was against). Turns out...team voted to stay with USP45's with a switch to the LEM. Basically, because of the success of how we selected them originally, they were selected again because we saw that our original selection resulted in ten years of great performance in harsh conditions. Part of this was my reputation was invested in the initial purchase, which also made me vested in the logistics side. I learned to work with HK on support, I learned how to work their internal system, and the guns were very problem free. They performed well in the field, and really showed how good they were when we started using +P 230 gr. Federal HST in quantity that was tearing up both 1911's and Glock 21's. As GJM found out, the USP recoil system is very good for high performance ammunition. The ability to run a huge round count through a couple of off the shelf guns before you buy them, and to use them in duty rigs in the field tells you a lot. This is especially true when the folks using them are the ones who will have to teach and maintain them. You find out if there are magazine issues, if you can figure out a different magazine release system, if you will need to alter how the gun is gripped, if they break parts or not and how responsive the factory is.
About the same time, another agency had switched to G21's. Luckily they had the right guy who pushed the program when they had some serious issues early. Again, having a gun guy with their butt on the line worked out as well as at the time, Glock was responsive to fixing the issues and resulted in the early changes to the 21's. It was example of having the right folks involved when things go bad helps to get them resolved. Had those problem guns been the result of some vote or goofy selection and the firearms staff who the problems fell on when it went bad had not been invested in the process, I doubt they would have had the same enthusiasm and intensity in forcing Glock to fix the issues, as opposed to going into "I told you so" mode.

Well for one, I have never claimed to be a part of any testing, selecting of purchasing of any equipment. I only said H&K delivering a 15 round magazine was a real head scratcher for me. My comment sure has made you go into a real melt down now hasn't it. I asked myself why some anonymous guy on the internet would cause you such destress-enough so that you would actually make snide comments about an anonymous user name. I spent less time coming to the conclusion than it will take me to type my response. The answer, as we all know is quite simple: you are very insecure. While I have had the great benefit of working with equipment provided to me, it has been vetted by people like you. While People like me continue going into harms way, you shouldn't feel bad that you are only a supply clerk. Don't feel bad about this. Don't be so defensive about this. Don't even try to rationalize this. Just know we really do appreciate your hard work, on our behalf. It does make a difference to those of us working int he field.

I just find it a shame that lesser companies than H&K have found ways to make magazines work with higher capacities and H&K cannot.

Wayne Dobbs
05-19-2016, 08:07 AM
I just find it a shame that lesser companies than H&K have found ways to make magazines work with higher capacities and H&K cannot.

You really are a 24 carat gold plated troll aren't you? Apparently you cannot gin up enough reading comprehension capability to understand that HK CAN do it, they just don't and won't do it for all the reasons previously articulated by some of us who have considerable technical and real world experience in both firearms selection, training, armoring/maintenance and employment (again in the real world).

Those rapid bumps you're hearing are the lane markers where you've driven over the line. Get back into the middle of that lane, bro. And, if you're not out of your lane, please tell us what you do, what you know and how you know it about anything related to the issues under discussion.

Dagga Boy
05-19-2016, 08:39 AM
Well for one, I have never claimed to be a part of any testing, selecting of purchasing of any equipment. I only said H&K delivering a 15 round magazine was a real head scratcher for me. My comment sure has made you go into a real melt down now hasn't it. I asked myself why some anonymous guy on the internet would cause you such destress-enough so that you would actually make snide comments about an anonymous user name. I spent less time coming to the conclusion than it will take me to type my response. The answer, as we all know is quite simple: you are very insecure. While I have had the great benefit of working with equipment provided to me, it has been vetted by people like you. While People like me continue going into harms way, you shouldn't feel bad that you are only a supply clerk. Don't feel bad about this. Don't be so defensive about this. Don't even try to rationalize this. Just know we really do appreciate your hard work, on our behalf. It does make a difference to those of us working int he field.

I just find it a shame that lesser companies than H&K have found ways to make magazines work with higher capacities and H&K cannot.

Thanks, I ll add supply clerk with no field experience to my bio. You have zip in your profile. Why don't you enlighten us as to how those two rounds with a less reliable magazine has made such a difference in the shootings you have been in with a pistol. You have a whole bunch of folks on here with actual experience running the HK magazines in high numbers indicating they are the most reliable magazines they have ever used and your response is that it is a shame that HK can't make a 17 work when lesser companies can. The problem is what is the definition of "work". Pictures were posted of Smith mags "working". Glock is on what generation of magazines and followers? You need a manual just to figure out all of Glocks magazines and internal combos. And when the 320 and VP9 were head to head in endurance testing, everyone was shocked when the VP9 proved to be the most reliable in that testing....and magazines have a lot to do with this. So, you can be happy with "works" while in the field doing all your field stuff, and some of us supply guys prefer "work really well over a long period" as a standard, even with 2 less rounds.

FNFAN
05-19-2016, 09:42 AM
Well for one, I have never claimed to be a part of any testing, selecting of purchasing of any equipment. I only said H&K delivering a 15 round magazine was a real head scratcher for me. My comment sure has made you go into a real melt down now hasn't it. I asked myself why some anonymous guy on the internet would cause you such destress-enough so that you would actually make snide comments about an anonymous user name. I spent less time coming to the conclusion than it will take me to type my response. The answer, as we all know is quite simple: you are very insecure. While I have had the great benefit of working with equipment provided to me, it has been vetted by people like you. While People like me continue going into harms way, you shouldn't feel bad that you are only a supply clerk. Don't feel bad about this. Don't be so defensive about this. Don't even try to rationalize this. Just know we really do appreciate your hard work, on our behalf. It does make a difference to those of us working int he field.

I just find it a shame that lesser companies than H&K have found ways to make magazines work with higher capacities and H&K cannot.

HK makes mags in a variety of pistol calibers holding 30 rounds that work marvelously. They chose a 15 round mag for this particular model. If an agency wants to tailor a bid to exclude this and exclude that -that's on them and the citizens in their region who provide them the tax dollars to fund their decisions. You've heard from several folks with decades of real life experience that resolving an armed conflict isn't about magazine capacities and surfed on past their input.

Takes ma's juevos to puff out your chest and talk about 'in harm's way' and supply clerkdom when you haven't got a clue who you're talking to -while making it painfully obvious that you don't have an actual point of reference to discern the person's competency even if you met the dude in person.

Somewhere Dunning & Kruger have misplaced a disciple.

psalms144.1
05-19-2016, 10:47 AM
Sweet! Can you send over some sticky notes and a box of pens? Thanks!F' all that! I need about a dozen more 15-round P30 mags. I'll gladly PM my mailing address :-)

stingray
05-19-2016, 12:00 PM
Let's get back to taking about pistols, magazines, procurement, and pretty much anything other than each other.

I thought the thread was about OHP and the Sig P320, complete with 17 round fully functioning magazines. :-)

Hambo
05-19-2016, 12:11 PM
Thanks, I ll add supply clerk...to my bio.

I know Tom said stop, but that just cracks me up. Did all your typing with the Hebrew Hammer, I'll bet. ;):)

Drang
05-19-2016, 12:20 PM
I obviously need a breathalyser to prevent me from searching and posting until I'm on my second cup of coffee. "Insufficient caffeine detected, try again later." Or maybe "Inappropriate forum, move to correct one y/n?"

FWIW, I ordered a sight pusher from Fisher Solutions on Monday and it arrived yesterday. When the new front sight arrives, I'll post about using it IN HARDWARE.

:(

Jackdog
05-19-2016, 12:33 PM
I was in a class last month with a TX DPS CID Narc officer. He states the reason DPS didn't go with the VP9 was because of the mag release, even though it performed the best.

He also stated that 2 recruit classes of 50 recruits each had put 5,000 rounds thru the new Sig P320 without any problems.

Of course this is at least 3rd hand info. So take with an appropriate dose of salt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DocGKR
05-19-2016, 12:52 PM
1. Like many shooters I know, I routinely download my Glock and M&P mags by 1-2 rounds so that they function more reliably and last longer; maybe HK knew what they were doing when they made their mags hold 15 rounds...

2. There are only a small number of folks discussing firearms issues on the internet who are worth paying attention to--Nyeti and Wayne Dobbs are two of the individuals to whom I carefully listen.

Dagga Boy
05-19-2016, 01:23 PM
I was in a class last month with a TX DPS CID Narc officer. He states the reason DPS didn't go with the VP9 was because of the mag release, even though it performed the best.

He also stated that 2 recruit classes of 50 recruits each had put 5,000 rounds thru the new Sig P320 without any problems.

Of course this is at least 3rd hand info. So take with an appropriate dose of salt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is a bit of a story behind that. Call when you can and I ll fill you in.


1. Like many shooters I know, I routinely download my Glock and M&P mags by 1-2 rounds so that they function more reliably and last longer; maybe HK knew what they were doing when they made their mags hold 15 rounds...

2. There are only a small number of folks discussing firearms issues on the internet who are worth paying attention to--Nyeti and Wayne Dobbs are two of the individuals to whom I carefully listen.

Only on pistol-forum do the career supply clerks get endorsed by just a dentist.......perfect.

Coyotesfan97
05-19-2016, 02:43 PM
I wish I had a supply clerk like Nyeti following me around on K9 searches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HCM
05-19-2016, 03:55 PM
I was in a class last month with a TX DPS CID Narc officer. He states the reason DPS didn't go with the VP9 was because of the mag release, even though it performed the best.

He also stated that 2 recruit classes of 50 recruits each had put 5,000 rounds thru the new Sig P320 without any problems.

Of course this is at least 3rd hand info. So take with an appropriate dose of salt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've heard similar info re: the P320 and TX DPS recruit classes. I'm following this closely as I have a relative in the hiring process for DPS.

Re: The mag release issue, I can't speak directly to DPS motivation but I can say this- in the late 1990s / early 2000s my agency transitioned nealy 20,000 shooters from Berettas with button mag releases to HK USP compacts with levers. I never saw or heard of any transition issues related to the mag release. Similarly, we regularly get lateral officers coming from U.S. Border Patrol who have only used lever mag releases on HK P2000s and they have no issues transitioning to the button release on the SIG P229.

JCS
05-19-2016, 04:10 PM
I was taking a class at the ohp this week and noticed a lot of officers had the p320. Only about half of them. I saw some berettas and glocks as well. I didn't get a chance to talk to any of them but I am curious how they like them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

M2CattleCo
05-19-2016, 05:15 PM
As far as mag capacity goes....

Here's a couple of Sig P226 9mm mags. They both have the exact same internal dimensions. The one with the little follower and little spring holds 17 rounds, the other 15. I know I'd rather have the more robust 15 rounder any day!

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/sammuse/Mobile%20Uploads/th_image_zpss65q24iq.jpeg

jnc36rcpd
05-19-2016, 05:55 PM
Ammunition capacity is important, but not at the expense of reliability, function, or the ability of the pistol to fit the majority of your personnel. While I prefer having seventeen round magazines rather than fifteen, it is comparatively less important than with smaller capacity weapon such as single stacks.

That said, I'd gladly serve warrants with Supply Clerck nyeti and prefer to do so with a VP9 rather than my current issue.

Wayne Dobbs
05-19-2016, 07:22 PM
There are a couple of dudes in SoCal that found out how our supply clerk can shoot.

Beat Trash
05-20-2016, 11:23 AM
I was in a class last month with a TX DPS CID Narc officer. He states the reason DPS didn't go with the VP9 was because of the mag release, even though it performed the best.

He also stated that 2 recruit classes of 50 recruits each had put 5,000 rounds thru the new Sig P320 without any problems.

Of course this is at least 3rd hand info. So take with an appropriate dose of salt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I guess the question that I would want to ask, knowing that I will most likely never get an actual answer, is who made the decision that the magazine release style of the HK was not acceptable for Texas DPS? Was it their range staff or was it their senior command staff? And was this decision made out of a personal bias or was there some logical reasoning behind it?

I ask this having spent the last 24 years in an agency of about 1,100 officers, where the higher in rank one goes, the more they tend to think of themselves as an expert in any and all topics after spending a career in Police Administration.

DocGKR
05-20-2016, 12:43 PM
And Beat Trash hits a homerun!

John Hearne
05-20-2016, 01:32 PM
And was this decision made out of a personal bias or was there some logical reasoning behind it?

Traditional LE View: different = bad

HCM
05-20-2016, 01:48 PM
I guess the question that I would want to ask, knowing that I will most likely never get an actual answer, is who made the decision that the magazine release style of the HK was not acceptable for Texas DPS? Was it their range staff or was it their senior command staff? And was this decision made out of a personal bias or was there some logical reasoning behind it?

I ask this having spent the last 24 years in an agency of about 1,100 officers, where the higher in rank one goes, the more they tend to think of themselves as an expert in any and all topics after spending a career in Police Administration.

It was an excuse to pick the gun, or more specifically the brand, they wanted.

A few years ago the DPS announced their switch to S&W M&Ps from SIG 226's and their transition to 9mm. The process which lead to the selection of the M&P was murky and apparently did not involve open testing or input from outside the range staff.

In 2014, DPS issued the first M&P 9mms to a recruit class. It was a disaster - the guns had multiple durability and reliability issues. Enough that the M&Ps were pulled and those recruits were retrained on SIGs before they were sent on the road.

DPS then had an open competition process to test new handguns which included firearms instructors and troopers from the field. Three guns passed the test requirements - the VP9, the P 320 and the Glock 17 Gen 4.

DPS has issued SIG autos since the transitioned from revolvers in the late 80s or early 90s and they have worked well for them.

Given the M&P fiasco, it's not surprising they wanted to find a reason to go with what they know i.e. SIG.

The mag release thing is just articulation to satisfy the requirements of the procurement process.

alohadoug
05-20-2016, 03:18 PM
Mass State Police went the other direction. They've issued SIG P226 since transitioning from revolvers (and merging with another agency). A couple of years ago, they had a bad batch of P226s issued to an academy class. I've heard (second hand so take it for what it's worth) that 50 of 300 guns were deadlined by the end of the Academy. MSP questioned the QC at SIG. There was a "testing" period then selected S&W M&P45. Haven't heard of issues with them, several smaller (local) PD's have made the transition as well.

Might have something to do with S&W being hq'd here?? I'm just saying. :D

Aloha

HCM
05-20-2016, 03:32 PM
Mass State Police went the other direction. They've issued SIG P226 since transitioning from revolvers (and merging with another agency). A couple of years ago, they had a bad batch of P226s issued to an academy class. I've heard (second hand so take it for what it's worth) that 50 of 300 guns were deadlined by the end of the Academy. MSP questioned the QC at SIG. There was a "testing" period then selected S&W M&P45. Haven't heard of issues with them, several smaller (local) PD's have made the transition as well.

Might have something to do with S&W being hq'd here?? I'm just saying. :D

Aloha

How long ago? There was a stretch (2007ish to 2012) where SIG was having QC issues. BATFE had similar QC issues with SIG 229 40 calibers in this time frame whcih lead to their transition to Glock Gen 4's.

The home team advantage doesn't hurt. Politics, internal or external always play at least some part in agency selections. Agency culture plays a part as well. Some agencies are more invested in machismo than others.

There has been a trend towards 45 in NE state police agencies. You have:

ME - HK 45 acp (not sure which model)
NH - M&P 45 acp
MA - S&W 45 acp
NY- Glock 45 GAP
PA - Glock 45 acp to SIG 45 acp
CT- SIG 45 acp

The only outliers not using 45s are (M&P 40) and RI (SIG .357).

LSP972
05-21-2016, 11:33 AM
The process which lead to the selection of the M&P was murky and apparently did not involve open testing or input from outside the range staff.



According to a DPS range staff guy I spoke with a month or so ago...

No testing at all; and the range staff had no input either. It was the brainchild of a high-ranking individual; period.

.

SLG
05-21-2016, 12:05 PM
Very late to this train wreck.

I'm sure there is an exception somewhere out there that I'm not aware of, but I would say that generally speaking, there is very little legit about the procurement process when it comes to guns and organizations. Mil/LE, doesn't matter.

I have next to no VP9 experience, but the magazine is the weakest part of everyone's guns. HK simply tries to make it less weak, and I think they do a great job of it. Sig usually does as well. Glock...not so much.

Wayne Dobbs
05-21-2016, 12:35 PM
According to a DPS range staff guy I spoke with a month or so ago...

No testing at all; and the range staff had no input either. It was the brainchild of a high-ranking individual; period.

.

And complicated by one of DPS's guys getting a S&W job afterwards and triggering a corruption investigation.

Le Français
05-22-2016, 12:58 AM
There has been a trend towards 45 in NE state police agencies. You have:

ME - HK 45 acp (not sure which model)


Maine SP issues the HK45, which replaced the USP 45 full size.

TheNewbie
05-22-2016, 07:57 AM
Maine SP issues the HK45, which replaced the USP 45 full size.


LEM or DA/SA?

11B10
05-22-2016, 12:44 PM
And this is a single gun. Now start thinking about managing hundreds of guns given to people in which a majority could give a heck about them. Often improperly or simply not cleaned. Lack of lubrication, or use of things like WD 40. The guns often have the same round loaded and unloaded over and over. Magazine maintenance is worse than on the guns. When you start to look at these factors, it should be an indicator that the selection of service guns is a interesting prospect, and can go badly any number of ways.

This is why in this thread, in this section of the forum I get fairly intolerant of commentary from folks who have not a clue about what it takes to manage large quantities of guns being used daily. These are not taken out of the safe for a training day hard use, they are sitting in holsters directing traffic in the rain for hours. They are exposed to all manner of debris. They are constantly being banged into hard objects. They get dropped fairly often. They get shot by folks with often terrible grips. They are exposed to being run with an Ammo gammut that runs from the lowest bid dirty and anemic training ammunition to full power premium duty loads. Many have various lights, lasers and accessories mounted to them......some good and some terrible. There is a ton going on in terms of how to select guns that will survive in these environmental conditions and with a majority of the users fairly clueless to the care and feeding process.

In the original spirit of this thread, I will simply say that when a good number of your officers likely have their magazines in their pouches facing the wrong direction, worrying about a 17 round magazine versus a 15 round magazine is putting priorities in the wrong place on what is important.




Thanks, nyeti - you always put serious thought (OK, almost always) into your posts. This one ^^^ is the latest to get my wheels turning. What really struck me in your words was the phrase about "not giving a heck about them (their guns)." I KNOW how I feel, every single day, as a rank-and-file nobody, when I "gear up." I really have trouble understanding why someone who is deliberately in harms' way, every single day - does NOT care. In other words, MY situation is an "if" - THEIRS is a "when." It would be like a high rise window washer not checking, worse - not WANTING to check - their harnesses. If you can eliminate, as far as humanly possible, the malfunction of a potential lifesaving tool that you carry on your person - why wouldn't you?

11B10
05-22-2016, 12:48 PM
There is a bit of a story behind that. Call when you can and I ll fill you in.



Only on pistol-forum do the career supply clerks get endorsed by just a dentist.......perfect.



"Supply clerk?" With HOW many felony arrests?

And..."just a dentist?"

One thing you guys have in spades is a sense of humor!

11B10
05-22-2016, 12:57 PM
1. Like many shooters I know, I routinely download my Glock and M&P mags by 1-2 rounds so that they function more reliably and last longer; maybe HK knew what they were doing when they made their mags hold 15 rounds...

2. There are only a small number of folks discussing firearms issues on the internet who are worth paying attention to--Nyeti and Wayne Dobbs are two of the individuals to whom I carefully listen.


Would you also download the 9 round .45 ACP mags in a P320C?

Le Français
05-22-2016, 07:55 PM
LEM or DA/SA?
"Light" LEM, for both.

Dagga Boy
05-22-2016, 09:46 PM
"Supply clerk?" With HOW many felony arrests?

And..."just a dentist?"

One thing you guys have in spades is a sense of humor!

My partner and I ripped 487 felonies in one year and each of us were in a successful OIS. Luckily us supply clerks are out there helping the real field guys like Stingray. Only thing better was Gabe Suarez calling my and office admin pogue on the Internet.

DocGKR
05-22-2016, 10:20 PM
"Would you also download the 9 round .45 ACP mags in a P320C?"

In contrast to 9 mm Glock magazines, I have no significant direct experience with large numbers of .45 Auto P320c mags, nor am I aware of any data sets analyzing them so I am unable to answer your question.

HCountyGuy
05-23-2016, 01:47 AM
In regards to downloading mags, is this usually just reserved for certain 17-round mags or is there perhaps universal applicability in increasing reliability? Would anyone download a 15 rounder based off experience or caution?

This has me considering downloading my 17-round MecGar mags for my P229, which I bought simply because they were cheaper than OEM 15s.

Dagga Boy
05-23-2016, 07:46 AM
In regards to downloading mags, is this usually just reserved for certain 17-round mags or is there perhaps universal applicability in increasing reliability? Would anyone download a 15 rounder based off experience or caution?

This has me considering downloading my 17-round MecGar mags for my P229, which I bought simply because they were cheaper than OEM 15s.

Depends on the magazine and maker. I first started noting less issues with magazines by just loading and not replacing the top round with Glocks. I have continued this practice with other high capacity double stack magazines.

alohadoug
05-23-2016, 09:03 AM
How long ago? There was a stretch (2007ish to 2012) where SIG was having QC issues. BATFE had similar QC issues with SIG 229 40 calibers in this time frame whcih lead to their transition to Glock Gen 4's.

The home team advantage doesn't hurt. Politics, internal or external always play at least some part in agency selections. Agency culture plays a part as well. Some agencies are more invested in machismo than others.



It was late 2011. Here's the Ammoland.com (http://www.ammoland.com/2011/12/smith-wesson-converts-two-state-agencies-to-the-mp-pistol/#axzz49UI2vEKn) press release.

Aloha

11B10
05-23-2016, 11:20 AM
In contrast to 9 mm Glock magazines, I have no significant direct experience with large numbers of .45 Auto P320c mags, nor am I aware of any data sets analyzing them so I am unable to answer your question.


Thanks for the honest answer. I only asked because you had been referring to guns other than Glocks in your previous post (S&W, H&K). Having owned both brands, it's obvious to me that the Sig magazines are of a higher quality than the Glock's, but the last thing I want to do is damage the spring to gain one round in my P320C/.45ACP.

11B10
05-23-2016, 11:23 AM
Depends on the magazine and maker. I first started noting less issues with magazines by just loading and not replacing the top round with Glocks. I have continued this practice with other high capacity double stack magazines.



Nyeti - do you have any thoughts on my downloading question to Doc with my .45 P320C?

GJM
05-23-2016, 12:39 PM
I download my Glock mags one cartridge.

What is the matter with standard capacity Glock 9mm magazines? They haven't changed the follower in years, and I can't remember the last time I had a problem with one. They also seem to require minimal cleaning to function after being dropped in debris that would require cleaning in other magazines.

Dagga Boy
05-23-2016, 12:47 PM
Nyeti - do you have any thoughts on my downloading question to Doc with my .45 P320C?

Like Doc, I have zero experience with them. I know it is weird for folks to not comment on things they don't know about on the Internet, but it happens once in a blue moon.

psalms144.1
05-23-2016, 12:51 PM
I know it is weird for folks to not comment on things they don't know about on the Internet, but it happens once in a blue moon.Well, at least you learned, Supply Clerk! (Seriously, I'm just kidding, please don't naked Viking flash-bang me again...)

Gadfly
05-23-2016, 01:04 PM
Written policy for our duty guns, they are to be carried with a topped off magazine. 6,500 Sigs and Glocks plus a couple thousand back ups (and Beretta and HK in the past) and I can't recall any issues related to magazines carried at full capacity. Does not mean the don't exist. But our agency has not seen them in any number to cause us to reconsider...

Dagga Boy
05-23-2016, 01:49 PM
Written policy for our duty guns, they are to be carried with a topped off magazine. 6,500 Sigs and Glocks plus a couple thousand back ups (and Beretta and HK in the past) and I can't recall any issues related to magazines carried at full capacity. Does not mean the don't exist. But our agency has not seen them in any number to cause us to reconsider...

Just to clarify....you have 6500 Glocks and SIGs and have not had any magazine issues? No magazine related malfunctions ever, no need for replacement, no seam splits or chipped feed lips or followers ever? Pretty awesome, and glad you are having that kind of service from magazines.

JHC
05-23-2016, 02:02 PM
I download my Glock mags one cartridge.

What is the matter with standard capacity Glock 9mm magazines? They haven't changed the follower in years, and I can't remember the last time I had a problem with one. They also seem to require minimal cleaning to function after being dropped in debris that would require cleaning in other magazines.

Every so often I will come across an "old codger" that insists on an empty hole under the hammer of a modern S&W revolver. I'm kinda like that. I download everything one round whether anyone said so or not. Two if it's a 20 or 30 round AR mag. And I KNOW the best info is that it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. ;)

Gadfly
05-23-2016, 02:17 PM
Just to clarify....you have 6500 Glocks and SIGs and have not had any magazine issues? No magazine related malfunctions ever, no need for replacement, no seam splits or chipped feed lips or followers ever? Pretty awesome, and glad you are having that kind of service from magazines.

To clarify, agency wide we have 6500+ agents, so probably 12,000 guns. My office, about 220 agents/@400 guns. And yes we see mag related malfunctions. But they are far from rampant. And no issues reported from our national firearms unit about pistol mag issues when fully loaded. Each agent has 4-6 mags issued per gun. We issue replacement mags, but rarely. Probably about 20 per year, but half those are lost mags, not damaged ones. And damaged ones are either stepped on, or were left somewhere to rust up. I see far more problems from people trying to stuff a .40 into a 9mm and vice versa.

I have never seen a spilt seem on one of our issued pistol mags. On our colt brand M4 mags? Yes, I have seen broken spot welds on the back. UMP .40 mag also had issues with durability (base plates breaking when dropped). Our long gun mags give us more problems than out pistol mags.

Obviously, your mileage varied.

psalms144.1
05-23-2016, 02:40 PM
Every so often I will come across an "old codger" that insists on an empty hole under the hammer of a modern S&W revolver. I'm kinda like that. I download everything one round whether anyone said so or not. Two if it's a 20 or 30 round AR mag. And I KNOW the best info is that it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. ;)Yeah, but, two is one, and one is none, so, you should download 2. That would SERIOUSLY suck if you were depending on a derringer...

Dagga Boy
05-23-2016, 03:09 PM
To clarify, agency wide we have 6500+ agents, so probably 12,000 guns. My office, about 220 agents/@400 guns. And yes we see mag related malfunctions. But they are far from rampant. And no issues reported from our national firearms unit about pistol mag issues when fully loaded. Each agent has 4-6 mags issued per gun. We issue replacement mags, but rarely. Probably about 20 per year, but half those are lost mags, not damaged ones. And damaged ones are either stepped on, or were left somewhere to rust up. I see far more problems from people trying to stuff a .40 into a 9mm and vice versa.

I have never seen a spilt seem on one of our issued pistol mags. On our colt brand M4 mags? Yes, I have seen broken spot welds on the back. UMP .40 mag also had issues with durability (base plates breaking when dropped). Our long gun mags give us more problems than out pistol mags.

Obviously, your mileage varied.

Thanks, good info. A couple things I have found over the years is two things in particular. In the case of steel welded magazines, dropping them often and regularly on concrete or asphalt in training is very hard on them, especially if dropped loaded. I went to a class where we did a ton of malfunction drills where you would set up a malfunction, strip a loaded magazine and clear the issue and repeat over and over. This drill and several others resulted in needing three new magazines at the end of class and spray painting the damaged ones to make them training magazines. Fully loaded HK USP magazines with hard bases are heavy and caused weld breakage. I have seen this in SiG magazines as well in both .45 and 9 mm in the legacy P series. All of these magazines benefitted heavily from using rubberized bases.
In the case of Glock magazines, the reason for a single round download is mainly because the magazine plays a critical role in assisting in exraction and ejection. Less pressure on the top round seems to offer better overall performance and consistent performance during the entire cycle of operation, which is why I would think the other supply guys like Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn have adopted this as well.

Also, I have found most LE end users are terrible about magazine maintenance. When they start getting full of love knows what, not being at full compression seems to help the gun function when the mags are full of debris.

LtDave
05-23-2016, 04:01 PM
Depends on the magazine and maker. I first started noting less issues with magazines by just loading and not replacing the top round with Glocks. I have continued this practice with other high capacity double stack magazines.

I have been doing the same thing for quite a while.

LtDave
05-23-2016, 04:03 PM
I download my Glock mags one cartridge.

What is the matter with standard capacity Glock 9mm magazines? They haven't changed the follower in years, and I can't remember the last time I had a problem with one. They also seem to require minimal cleaning to function after being dropped in debris that would require cleaning in other magazines.

My experience as well with both 9mm and .40 Glock mags. I've got some .40 ones that I use solely for USPSA. They haven't been apart in 10 years.

Gadfly
05-23-2016, 05:32 PM
Slightly off target from the OP...

This post had me thinking. Nyeti mentioned split seams on pistol mags. I pulled a Sig 229 mag (pictured below). No weld seam.

My HK mags have a seam. My 1911 mags have a seam. None on my Glock mags...

So are the 229 mags extruded?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160523/bfa738823f94fba3676dff0fdf8bf355.jpg

Dagga Boy
05-23-2016, 05:57 PM
The older legacy SIGs had seems when Sig was making their own mags. I think Megar or another contractor makes them now. Also, Glock has improved their mags over numerous generations, and it may not be as necessary to download as it once was. Keep in mind that I started shooting both SIGs and Glocks in the mid 80's. Vast difference in many of these mags over the years. Also, I am always a bit leery of contract mags as they can be great or horrible with the same vendor.

11B10
05-23-2016, 06:23 PM
Like Doc, I have zero experience with them. I know it is weird for folks to not comment on things they don't know about on the Internet, but it happens once in a blue moon.


This "honesty thing" you describe - how's it work?

HCM
05-23-2016, 06:44 PM
Slightly off target from the OP...

This post had me thinking. Nyeti mentioned split seams on pistol mags. I pulled a Sig 229 mag (pictured below). No weld seam.

My HK mags have a seam. My 1911 mags have a seam. None on my Glock mags...

So are the 229 mags extruded?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160523/bfa738823f94fba3676dff0fdf8bf355.jpg

Not sure of the production method but all of our P229 mags are made in Italy so presumably Mecgar products.

I've seen a few 229 mags bind due to being absosoutly filthy (like not cleaned for > 5 years) and I've seen a few feed lips damaged from dropping on concrete but I've never seen a defective or worn out 229 GOV contract mag.

SLG
05-23-2016, 06:48 PM
Those 229 mags (no seam) are among the best mags ever built. No need to download them in anyway at all (talking about the original 13 rounders, not the newer 15's which I have no experience)

I've never seen a reason to download Beretta or HK mags either. Really, Glock mags are the only ones I download, other than my derringers.

Sero Sed Serio
05-24-2016, 08:44 PM
Those 229 mags (no seam) are among the best mags ever built. No need to download them in anyway at all (talking about the original 13 rounders, not the newer 15's which I have no experience)

This is something I was curious about while reading through this thread. Mec-Gar is generally accepted to be the gold standard for SIG mags, but are most commonly available in 15 rounders for the 228/legacy 229 9mms, and 18 rounders for the 226s. The 13 round 228 versions and 15 round 229 versions seem to be popping up under the "OEM" label. I'm assuming that, from the same manufacturer, a 13 round mag will last longer/be more reliable over time than a 15 round mag, but have no evidence to back this up. Anyone with extensive/agency level SIG experience with these mags who can chime in?

HCM
05-24-2016, 09:05 PM
This is something I was curious about while reading through this thread. Mec-Gar is generally accepted to be the gold standard for SIG mags, but are most commonly available in 15 rounders for the 228/legacy 229 9mms, and 18 rounders for the 226s. The 13 round 228 versions and 15 round 229 versions seem to be popping up under the "OEM" label. I'm assuming that, from the same manufacturer, a 13 round mag will last longer/be more reliable over time than a 15 round mag, but have no evidence to back this up. Anyone with extensive/agency level SIG experience with these mags who can chime in?

The SIG mags Gadfly and I are referencing are 12 round .40 caliber mags. OEM / Made in Italy aka Mec-gar. 13 round P228 mags are a known / proven quantity.

RJ
05-25-2016, 08:36 AM
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/pasco-sheriffs-deputies-trade-in-glocks-for-free-sig-sauer-service-handguns/2278326

This was local to where I live in Belleair FL.

Is it normal for companies to offer upgrades for free? As a tax payer, not complaining, it just sounded odd to me.

iWander
05-25-2016, 09:01 AM
Not odd, just good business as it was stated in the article. Glock did the exact same thing in the eighties and nineties with Smith & Wesson and Beretta. Smith & Wesson did the same thing several years ago with their M&P to try and gain a foothold from Glock.

Beat Trash
05-26-2016, 05:47 AM
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/pasco-sheriffs-deputies-trade-in-glocks-for-free-sig-sauer-service-handguns/2278326

This was local to where I live in Belleair FL.

Is it normal for companies to offer upgrades for free? As a tax payer, not complaining, it just sounded odd to me.

We were in a position to have to replace about 1,200 S&W 5946's and after a T&E process it was looking like the Glock 17 was going to be the winner. Our regional LE sales rep at the time from S&W begged us to wait 6 months as they had something "new coming out that you're going to love". After a few months, and a few non-disclosures, three pre-production M&P9's showed up for testing.

The deal made when we transition to the initial M&P9's was quite similar to that in the listed article. Companies will fight hard to steal a department away from a competitor. And depending on the current situation, some companies will fight even harder to prevent this from happening.

Kennydale
05-26-2016, 06:28 AM
I shot a Sig P320 at a range demo. Then went right over to the HK Booth and shot the VP9. Both very nice firearms (Both could replace my G17gen 4 love). No scientific basis ? just like the Sig P320 better !