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oboe
09-01-2011, 03:29 AM
Here’s the problem: Removeable belt holster versus shoulder holders. And I’m new a CCV. Got the training, the background check, the mug shot and the fingerprinting. Got the permit to carry concealed. Tried an Uncle Mikes generic IWB. DID NOT FEEL GOOD after a long trial period. Try with the same holster outside waist band, inside belt. Better, but still a PITA. The problem with any belt carry is sitting in some situations, and always when driving. The gun is useless on the belt - removable or otherwise - while riding in a car. Must be removed in those sitting situations.

So I got a very, very, very inexpensive shoulder holster. Took A LOT of adjusting and some sewing by wifie. OK now. Has tie downs. One thing’s for sure - I do not need to remove it when sitting or driving and it’s always accesable - even under heavier outer clothing. Does not require more clothing for concealment than IWB or OWB.

So, the belt holster is better for everything, shooting-wise . . . but horrid for the sitting and driving of which I tend to do so much. Also not so cool in the bathroom, public or private, during siting events. Must be removed during most sitting and all in-car stuff. The shoulder holster never, ever requires removal. It’s just not as good as the belt type holsters in the draw . . . . but of course, not totally unacceptable, either.

May I have your input on this conundrum? And for shoulder holster - verticle or horizontal? You posts addressing these issues will be appreciated.

seabiscuit
09-01-2011, 07:15 AM
What kind of belt are you wearing?

I think you'll find a quality IWB holster on a stiff belt will be much more comfortable. And you can find a removable one for driving.

texag
09-01-2011, 07:18 AM
So you bought a very cheap holster, rightly decided it sucked, and then wrote off carrying on your belt? Did you ever consider buying something that doesn't suck?

JeffJ
09-01-2011, 07:37 AM
If I had a dollar for every time... Look, if you want to carry a gun, you need a good holster. An Uncle Mikes one size fits nothing piece of crap is just that. Even a cursory sweep of this site will reveal that the folks here are carrying in either custom or small shop leather or kydex gear that you have to wait for and that cost anywhere from $65 and up. Carrying takes commitment, you are going to end up trying several holsters and spending a decent amount of money. People are built different and have different needs so it's hard to reccomend holsters to people but I'll suggest that you take a look at few decently made molded (specifically for your gun) holsters that are designed for concealed carry. Blade tech, fobus, galco, are all pretty widely available at a reasonable cost although you'll probably move up to something better eventually once you settle on style and carry position.

I personally wouldn't be interested in a shoulder holster, I don't know of any range that allows you to practice from one and that's a deal breaker for me.

I'd look into some decently made, molded IWB holsters if I were you. Good luck.

JDM
09-01-2011, 07:46 AM
What kind of gun do you have?
And where along the belt would you ideally carry?

I own a shoulder holster. A nice shoulder holster at that. It gets worn once or twice a year whenever I have the displeasure of wearing a suit. It's not an every day solution.

orionz06
09-01-2011, 09:00 AM
Most guys here, and please mention if I am wrong, are the jeans and t-shirt type and CC on a daily basis.

What gun(s), belt(s), and holster(s) have you tried?

John Ralston
09-01-2011, 09:05 AM
Shoulder Holsters SUCK...You can't train with them, and you can't shoot from them at ANY range that I have ever heard of. The are extremely uncomfortable for me - too much pressure on the muscles of my shoulders and the straps rub and cause discomfort.

I wear at around 2:00 with a slightly canted holster (roughly 5 deg) and I can sit and still draw with no issues, even with a seatbelt on.

I agree that there is that small issue when you have to drop trou, but you just have to be discreet, and you have to realize that every guy that walks in isn't trying to peak under the stall to see what you have going on. Just roll the top of your pants over the butt of the gun in one quick motion, and you have effectively concealed it for the mission. Pull them up in one quick motion and you are good to go.

ToddG
09-01-2011, 11:09 AM
I carried in a traditional IWB (at about 4:30 on my belt) for the better part of a decade with no problem. That includes countless 6-10 hour days driving. I normally had a fairly large gun (full size Beretta, SIG P220 or P226, S&W M&P full size). The key was that (a) I used well designed high quality holsters and belts, and (b) I got used to carrying a gun there.

In all my years of shooting and carrying, I've yet to meet a single person I'd consider "serious" who carries in a shoulder holster. As others have said, it's antithetical to the training-before-gear approach that most people at pistol-forum.com adhere to.

Rex G
09-01-2011, 06:04 PM
Belt, 99.99% of the time. I do own a rather good shoulder rig, an Andrews Monarch, for those few times a shoulder rig is truly indicated, such as being strapped into a helicopter. Otherwise, it has carried a second handgun on a few occasions, when I still wore a pistol in the usual location on the belt.

Don't base your opinion of belt holsters on a cheap Uncle Mike's piece of junk! I can wear a SIG P229 in a Josh Bulman FDS all day, in total comfort. I can wear a medium-framed revolver all day in a Milt Sparks PMK all day, in total comfort. I do wear a REAL belt, not a decorative ribbon around my waist.

oboe
09-01-2011, 06:12 PM
Your replies are very much appreciated. Thank you!

I guess I wasn’t as clear or complete as I should have been, so I’ll add the following:

In no way is the cheap stuff I’m using now my final choice. The only reason I got a cheap IWB and a cheap shoulder holster was to experience the various modes of carry. When I buy “for real”, it will be good stuff.

I’m 5’8” tall, weigh 155 pounds on a fat day after a heavy meal, and pants waist size is from 33” to 34”.

Although I have a .357 snubby and a 9mm S&W 3913 with manual safety and mag safety, I carry my S&W M&P full size 9mm with no manual, mag or internal safety. That’s what I plan to do. The 3913 is a BUG. Yes, I know that I’d be more comfy carrying the 3913, but for now I still want to focus on the M&P fs.

My pelvic structure is not optimal. The iliac crest is just too boney to allow comfort at any acceptable level at 3 o’clock. My poorly designed bones dictate that any IWB or OWB must be carried from 3 to 4 or 4:30. Seated behind the steering wheel, especially with the seatbelt on, is seriously uncomfortable and allows only the very most difficult draw. That goes for IWB and OWB, both.

I’m well aware of the restrictions on shoulder holsters at ranges, and they absolutely preclude any worthwhile dynamic official competition. However, I do not accept that “serious gunners don’t use shoulder holsters”, because I consider certain of my friends in, or retired from law enforcement or the military to be very serious gunners. I’m certain there are times, places and circumstances where a shoulder holster is a better choice than belt carry. For example, a person confined to a wheel chair or a person who sits behind the steering wheel of a car almost all day.

Frankly, I’d be WAAAAAAAY happier for IWB strong side to work out for me - but it feels horrid, and I’m not ready to spend real money on something I just can’t tolerate.

OWB feels fine - except when sitting on a couch or sitting in a car. I spend a fair amount of my time in those situations. With either an IWB or OWB, I’d need to remove it in those situations and then put it back on. If I could find ANY belt holster, IWB or OWB, that allowed me to keep it on in the car and sitting in certain chairs, then I’d buy a good one and put up with the chore of dealing with what happens to belt carried weapons while on the water throne.

I do accept that there will be trial and error no matter what route I pursue. I’m just trying to keep the cash drain to a minimum. If I had won the lottery, I would buy several really good holsters of each type and try them out one at a time. Alas, money is an important consideration. I’d like to have enough left to buy really good holster in whatever type I eventually find most practical.

By all means, I hope the commentary will continue. Thanks again!

JDM
09-01-2011, 06:18 PM
Like others have said, the comfort of a gun at 4:30 in an uncle mikes holster and the comfort of a gun at 4:30 in a real, quality holster is substantially different.

Have you considered appendix carry?

Rex G
09-01-2011, 06:36 PM
Consider the appendix position, for comfort, as BOM just indicated. My absolutely most comfortable set-up is a Kramer Vertical Scabbard, which has the muzzle raked a bit forward, marketed as a crossdraw, but worn at appendix. I have also worn some big revolvers inside the waistband, at the appendix position, quite comfortably in a now-long-discontinued Eagle Industries rig. I generally carry at 0300, all the time, as that is where my duty rig rides, but the appendix position is a bit more comfortable for me than 0300, and also great for a second handgun, when the "primary" is at 0300.

There are some nice long threads, with good photos, on this forum, detailing currenty-produced AIWB rigs.

oboe
09-01-2011, 06:56 PM
At my stage of development, AIWB is out of the question. I may not be a young squirt, but I still wish to retain the option of using the equipment. Probably the first thing I's do with AIWB is blast my pecker off. No thanks!

seabiscuit
09-01-2011, 08:56 PM
I'm 6'1", 175, bony hips. I carry at 4 o'clock in a Clipper from Alabama Holster Co on a Wilderness Tactical 5-Stitch belt. It's a good combo. Although the clip isn't as secure as a full loop, it makes it easy to slip on and off.

Works for me.

CCT125US
09-01-2011, 09:41 PM
FWIW, I am 5' 0" 120 pounds with a 28" waist and carry IWB at the 3:30 position with a high degree of cant. This works well while seated as the gun is pulled out away from the seat instead of straight up. The Cross Breed Super Tuck is what I have been using for years, but I am currently waiting on a full custom Kydex from a local shop. As said earlier, don't underestimate a good belt.

oboe
09-01-2011, 09:44 PM
For a hip holster, I'd need high ride, lotsa cant, and an easy removal mechanism. A belt can only accomplish so much. I have not excluded a belt holster, but I have excluded IWB of any sort.

Kyle Reese
09-01-2011, 09:44 PM
Shoulder rigs are an atrocious means of carrying a handgun, ranking right there with carrying a handgun in one's waistband, sans holster. I can see very few merits to utilizing a should rig, and many drawbacks.

Belt carry all the way, and AIWB at that.

oboe
09-01-2011, 11:07 PM
I'm a Floridian mostly, but during ski season I'm frequently in colder climates. Wearing more layers than in Florida. A substantial parka. I'm working hard to wrap my imagination around this image, which you promote: It's seriously winter in Burlington, Vermont. Lotsa snow. COLD. The BG confronts two appropriately dressed GGs and makes his move. One of the GGs is carrying AIWB. The other is carrying in a shoulder holster. I know you want me to believe that the GG carrying AIWB is ahead of the curve. I'm working hard to believe that. Really, really hard.

Kyle Reese
09-01-2011, 11:15 PM
I'm a Floridian mostly, but during ski season I'm frequently in colder climates. Wearing more layers than in Florida. A substantial parka. I'm working hard to wrap my imagination around this image, which you promote: It's seriously winter in Burlington, Vermont. Lotsa snow. COLD. The BG confronts two appropriately dressed GGs and makes his move. One of the GGs is carrying AIWB. The other is carrying in a shoulder holster. I know you want me to believe that the GG carrying AIWB is ahead of the curve. I'm working hard to believe that. Really, really hard.

There are too many variables in the realm of conflict to predict who would prevail in such a confrontation that you describe. One can postulate and play "what if" type scenarios until the early light of morning.

I carry AIWB, train regularly with this method of carry, and feel confident employing my weapon from AIWB. Ultimately it is up to you do decide how you wish to go about your daily routine (presumably armed) with the greatest degree of success.

oboe
09-01-2011, 11:17 PM
Nice try. Let me have your opinion again after you've carried AIWB dressed appropriately for a cold northern winter day.

JDM
09-01-2011, 11:19 PM
You trust yourself to downhill ski, but not carry AIWB safely?

Kyle Reese
09-01-2011, 11:20 PM
Nice try. Let me have your opinion again after you've carried AIWB dressed appropriately for a cold northern winter day.

I've given it, and stand by my comments.

Considering your scenario, how would one access their handgun (carrying OWB or shoulder holster) more efficiently under a winter parka with any more/less difficulty than AIWB?

I'm not saying AIWB is for everyone. If you have reservations or doubts about it, that's perfectly okay. Truth be told I was apprehensive about it until about 8 months ago, gave it a try, and after careful consideration I felt that this method of carry best served my needs.

There are advantages to AIWB, just as there risks (lethal ones) if one has a moment of carelessness holstering/reholstering.

oboe
09-01-2011, 11:46 PM
You trust yourself to downhill ski, but not carry AIWB safely?

You betcha.

oboe
09-02-2011, 12:03 AM
I've given it, and stand by my comments.

Considering your scenario, how would one access their handgun (carrying OWB or shoulder holster) more efficiently under a winter parka with any more/less difficulty than AIWB?

I'm not saying AIWB is for everyone. If you have reservations or doubts about it, that's perfectly okay. Truth be told I was apprehensive about it until about 8 months ago, gave it a try, and after careful consideration I felt that this method of carry best served my needs.

There are advantages to AIWB, just as there risks (lethal ones) if one has a moment of carelessness holstering/reholstering.

Understood. Although I'm not top notch, I've skied for about twenty years, and I have a lot more experience skiing that I do carrying concealed. I consider myself to be working hard to qualify for amateur status in concealed carry. The chance of blasting off my genitalia does not attract me to AIWB. YMMV

If one is familiar with wearing a winter parka, one can easily visualize how much easier it would be to obtain a weapon from the shoulder holster that it would be to obtain the weapon from the belt area.

When I am at a place, at a time, and in circumstances where a belt holster will operate the best and be more comfortable - believe me, that's what I'll do. But under heavy winter clothing, while driving, and in many situations while seated, it's difficult and uncomfortable for me to use a belt holster.

That said, the first "real" holster I'll buy will be a belt holster that (a) rides high, (b) has a lot of FBI, and (c) can be removed and locked in the car when I arrive a a location where I am barred by law from carrying a weapon, concealed or other wise. At some point, though, I believe that I'll also have a shoulder rig. The thought I'll expend in the choosing will make the expense pale by comparison.

Finally, I am so pleased that I can carry what I need to defend myself here at home in Florida, back in old Vermont [after it dries out], and in many other states. I'm also deeply disappointed in Illinois, California, New Jersey, Maryland and New York, just to name a few. Being able to have this discussion, and have it be actually useful in my daily life, is a wonderful pleasure. I hope there are further comments on my original post, and thank you all for your contributions. Much appreciated!

seabiscuit
09-02-2011, 12:18 AM
Nice try. Let me have your opinion again after you've carried AIWB dressed appropriately for a cold northern winter day.

So you'd remove your holster and put it directly under your coat, over all three other layers? Then how would you take off your coat?

ToddG
09-02-2011, 07:09 AM
This discussion has devolved into silliness. We might as well be arguing what works best if you're wearing a straightjacket.

When you choose a carry method, you must choose your concealment garments appropriately. For aiwb, that means garments that don't extend below your reach and making sure the garment closest to the gun is the longest so when you grab it, it moves everything on top of it, too. If you're engaged in an activity that prevents wearing clothing that way, then aiwb is the wrong option for that activity.

YVK
09-02-2011, 09:08 AM
Oboe, I live within 25 minutes from an Olympic downhill site. As such, lots of time is spent on slopes and wearing winter clothes. A single best carry option for heavy winter clothing - in my very opinionated opinion:) - is an OWB belt holster. I generally prefer higher-riding straight drop because I can push it forward to 3 or so; wearing behind the hip (FBI cant) makes it hard to draw while sitting. If sitting/cars is a really big deal, then cross-draw holster is worth looking at.

I tried shoulder rigs and, in my very opinionated opinion, they a) suck b) inferior to OWB. Just sharing my experience with a fellow ski bum...

TGS
09-02-2011, 09:14 AM
Oboe,

It sounds like you've already made up your mind.

I'm seeing a classic internet case of "I know friends from military and LE, and they're the best shooters I know, so obviously they're doing it right." Being military myself, I'm going to danger that there's a few people on here with considerably more experience and expertise in concealed carry that have already commented, and you've pretty much blown them off with "this is what works and I know it's going to be best for me" so I don't really see why you even posted here. I have friends from 2nd MSOB, 3rd Force Recon(both old and new), and while some of the best shooters in the military I can guarantee you they're complete newbies at techniques for concealed carry. Even guys I knew who went through the HRT course and went on several PSD tours in Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty uninformed on concealed carry, although they're pretty high up on the totem-pole in regards to shooting skill. I don't personally know any LEO's besides 2 forum members and a DS special agent that know anything about how to effectively conceal carry...all my other cop buddies are pretty much clueless. Concealing a gun isn't a qualifier in itself for effective concealed carry.

In short, I also have never seen anyone who is serious about concealed carry recommend a shoulder holster outside of extremely specific situations(read: unrealistic or completely out there for most people), or for people who have a medical condition which impinges certain motions.

You're ending each post with a thank you note, and saying you want to learn......but the body of your messages says otherwise. You've already made up your mind with some very specific details, which is amazing considering the quantity and quality of holsters you've used.

oboe
09-02-2011, 10:29 AM
So you'd remove your holster and put it directly under your coat, over all three other layers? Then how would you take off your coat?

I don't understand the question. LE would be wearing there duty belt and equipment on the outside - it needs no concealment. A person carrying concealed in a colder climate could wear a shoulder holster. It would be easier to reach than if the holster were on the belt [under the clothing].

TGS
09-02-2011, 10:45 AM
I don't understand the question. LE would be wearing there duty belt and equipment on the outside - it needs no concealment. A person carrying concealed in a colder climate could wear a shoulder holster. It would be easier to reach than if the holster were on the belt [under the clothing].

Have you considered a pocket holster for a HK P2000sk, M&P compact, Glock 26, Walther P99 compact? Parkas can have pretty big pockets, so you might be able to do the 3913 in them but I'm not sure.

oboe
09-02-2011, 10:45 AM
Oboe,

It sounds like you've already made up your mind.

I'm seeing a classic internet case of "I know friends from military and LE, and they're the best shooters I know, so obviously they're doing it right." Being military myself, I'm going to danger that there's a few people on here with considerably more experience and expertise in concealed carry that have already commented, and you've pretty much blown them off with "this is what works and I know it's going to be best for me" so I don't really see why you even posted here. I have friends from 2nd MSOB, 3rd Force Recon(both old and new), and while some of the best shooters in the military I can guarantee you they're complete newbies at techniques for concealed carry. Even guys I knew who went through the HRT course and went on several PSD tours in Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty uninformed on concealed carry, although they're pretty high up on the totem-pole in regards to shooting skill. I don't personally know any LEO's besides 2 forum members and a DS special agent that know anything about how to effectively conceal carry...all my other cop buddies are pretty much clueless. Concealing a gun isn't a qualifier in itself for effective concealed carry.

In short, I also have never seen anyone who is serious about concealed carry recommend a shoulder holster outside of extremely specific situations(read: unrealistic or completely out there for most people), or for people who have a medical condition which impinges certain motions.

You're ending each post with a thank you note, and saying you want to learn......but the body of your messages says otherwise. You've already made up your mind with some very specific details, which is amazing considering the quantity and quality of holsters you've used.

Well, you're half right - it does sound like that. I'm actually probing for responses. That said, the contributors HAVE affected my thinking: The first "real" holster I'll buy will be a high riding belt holster with adjustable cant and a convenient removal mechanism. I'd be thinking about acquiring a second holster - shoulder holster - for long drives, use in winter conditions, and other specific situations. The reasoning for my choice is in part what I've read here and elsewhere - keeping mind my wish to learn IDPA competition, my comfort with strong side belt carry when sitting in most chairs but not all, the potential dangers of shoulder draw [I'd need considerable further training for times when I elect to use it] and the primary purpose of carrying - self defense.

That said, IWB feels awful to me, and with any belt and holster, it would still press the weapon and holster against my body. So the first would be OWB and outside the belt. If I'm taught to draw and shoot from that arrangement, and if over time there's not a problem with concealment, I'll stick with it.

So again, THANK YOU all for your input, and if there's anything more that needs to be said [about the issue of shoulder versus belt carry], I hope that it will be said.

Tamara
09-02-2011, 11:19 AM
For the longest time, I swore that IWB was too uncomfortable and I could never do it. I'm sure a search at GlockTalk or TFL a decade or so ago will turn up those posts.

And now I've been carrying a full-size 1911 IWB at the 4:30 position for some eight or nine years.

Here are some things I've found:

I buy my pants a size larger than I normally would. There needs to be room for both me and the gun/holster in there, after all.

A quality holster is important, but a quality belt is even more so. With a rigid holster with loops properly sized to a stiff gun belt, the gun doesn't shift around. I take five+ hour roadtrips all the time in a sports car with wrap-around bucket seats, and it doesn't bother me. I've fallen asleep on the couch lying on the gun too many times to count.

The holsters I have used over the last eight or nine years (Galco Summer Comfort/Royal Guard, Brommeland Max Con V, and Sparks VM-2) all have belt loops with snaps and can be removed and replaced without having to take off the belt.

I live someplace with real winters and spend a lot of time outside. I don't zip my Columbia parka, I just use the snaps on the zipper fly to keep it closed. Even so, I keep a J-frame revolver in an outside pocket accessible with either hand.

oboe
09-02-2011, 11:43 AM
For the longest time, I swore that IWB was too uncomfortable and I could never do it. I'm sure a search at GlockTalk or TFL a decade or so ago will turn up those posts.

And now I've been carrying a full-size 1911 IWB at the 4:30 position for some eight or nine years.

Here are some things I've found:

I buy my pants a size larger than I normally would. There needs to be room for both me and the gun/holster in there, after all.

A quality holster is important, but a quality belt is even more so. With a rigid holster with loops properly sized to a stiff gun belt, the gun doesn't shift around. I take five+ hour roadtrips all the time in a sports car with wrap-around bucket seats, and it doesn't bother me. I've fallen asleep on the couch lying on the gun too many times to count.

The holsters I have used over the last eight or nine years (Galco Summer Comfort/Royal Guard, Brommeland Max Con V, and Sparks VM-2) all have belt loops with snaps and can be removed and replaced without having to take off the belt.

I live someplace with real winters and spend a lot of time outside. I don't zip my Columbia parka, I just use the snaps on the zipper fly to keep it closed. Even so, I keep a J-frame revolver in an outside pocket accessible with either hand.



First I'll try to get comfortable with OWB, which appears to be doable. I just don't want to spend money on a decent IWB rig only to find out that I really can't stand it. After I'm comfortable with the OWB and at least have a rig that works and that I can live with, then I'd be willing to invest in a decent IWB rig and give it an extended try. By the way, in what state do you live? My entire adult life I lived in Vermont until moving to south Florida.

TGS
09-02-2011, 12:09 PM
I just don't want to spend money on a decent IWB rig only to find out that I really can't stand it.


Take a look at the Triskel. His prices are definitely on the high end......you can get a good holster for cheaper, but I'm not familiar with any similar to the Triskel. It will allow you to switch between OWB and IWB, and will do well at both unless you're looking at a lot of grappling in your training regimen, in which case the plastic clips can be broken.

http://garritysgunleather.com/IWBHolsters.htm

JV_
09-02-2011, 12:11 PM
I just don't want to spend money on a decent IWB rig only to find out that I really can't stand it.If it doesn't work out, sell it. The used market for holsters fitting most popular guns is pretty good.

TGS
09-02-2011, 12:12 PM
Take a look at the Triskel. His prices are definitely on the high end......you can get a good holster for cheaper, but I'm not familiar with any similar to the Triskel. It will allow you to switch between OWB and IWB, and will do well at both unless you're looking at a lot of grappling in your training regimen, in which case the plastic clips can be broken.

http://garritysgunleather.com/IWBHolsters.htm

P.S. I lived in Vermont for 4 years. There's definitely some things I enjoyed and miss about Vermont.

oboe
09-02-2011, 12:15 PM
Take a look at the Triskel. His prices are definitely on the high end......you can get a good holster for cheaper, but I'm not familiar with any similar to the Triskel. It will allow you to switch between OWB and IWB, and will do well at both unless you're looking at a lot of grappling in your training regimen, in which case the plastic clips can be broken.

http://garritysgunleather.com/IWBHolsters.htm

You know - that Triskel might be just the answer! A little pricey, but hey! Thanks!

oboe
09-02-2011, 12:16 PM
P.S. I lived in Vermont for 4 years. There's definitely some things I enjoyed and miss about Vermont.

Do the 4 years mean college?

fuse
09-02-2011, 01:12 PM
Unrelated, I am curious why your username is oboe.

oboe
09-02-2011, 01:31 PM
Unrelated, I am curious why your username is oboe.

Ha! Yes, it certainly is unrelated.

The name oboe [all lower case] came about as an accident about fifteen years ago, or whenever I had my first Windows computer. I needed a screen name, and my parents were professional musicians. I went through a bunch of composers' names - Bach, Beethoven, etc - only to find that they already were in use. The I turned to instruments - violin [father], piano [mother], etc and etc. Finally - FINALLY! - oboe was available, so I took it. I've used it so much and on so many different web sites over the past fifteen years that some people who first knew me as "oboe" still call me that even after they know my real [legal] name.

That's not very exciting, but it's the truth.

Regarding my posts here, please bear in mind that although I've been a shooter since the age of ten, I'm only a newcomer to pistols and concealed carry. By the time I could know as much as you guys do now - assuming I EVER would - I'll be too old to do anything about it :D That won't stop me from trying.

fuse
09-02-2011, 04:02 PM
Ahh. I am a classical musician myself, and oboe is not a name I would expect to find on a gun board.

oboe
09-02-2011, 04:33 PM
Ahh. I am a classical musician myself, and oboe is not a name I would expect to find on a gun board.

We all can have our own stereotypical views of just who are gunners and who are classical music lovers. The entire gun picture will grow geometrically when the general public no longer associates the keeping and bearing of arms with the stereotypical gun owner.

But back to the subject - "real shooters who take it seriously" and their group disdain for shoulder holsters. I could have sworn that Massad Ayoob is a real shooter who takes it seriously. But he and others have written some heretical stuff. Here are a few links:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_45/ai_55605739/?tag=content;col1


http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/shr.htm

Simon
09-02-2011, 05:35 PM
I am a little late to the party, but some personal experience carrying a pistol while wearing a parka. I worked in extreme NE Montana for several years. Parka weather was from mid November to the 1st of May most years. I used IWB at 3:30 for plain clothes , and a uniform duty rig all other times (about 50-50). The only way I could find to carry with a parka and be able to present the gun in a reasonable amount of time was to carry it in the right side hand warmer pocket. The size of the pocket defined the size of the gun. My hand was in the pocket griping the gun until I was satisfied I could remove my hand with out endangering myself. Any weapon that is inside a closed parka might as well not be on your person.

JRCHolsters
09-02-2011, 05:36 PM
I try not to get to involved in the "which type of holster is best" conversations. My job as a holster maker is to work with a customer to help pick, or modify a holster that fits his or her needs. The criteria usually consist of safety, concealability, speed and comfort.... not necessarily in that order.

I have seen various modes of carry reviled and popular at different times, and there is always someone who can tell us why one way is the only way to do it, and why another way is for jackasses that are unprofessional.

Here is what I have found though, not everything is right for everyone, and certain modes of carry aren't as horrible as some say they are. Everyone has different needs. Some people have physical disabilities of one sort or another. Maybe you can not train on ranges with certain types of holsters, but it sure doesn't stop you from dry practicing at home.

I wear IWB at 4:30 most of the time, sometimes high ride at the same location. If my shoulder is acting up, Cavalry at that location. When my fused lower back and titanium plate are bugging the hell out of me, the shoulder holster. So, none of these are right or wrong, they are just what works at the time. Kind of like the old axiom, any gun is better than no gun.

What ever you choose, just practice as much as possible and get the best gear you can afford at the time.

Tamara
09-02-2011, 06:36 PM
But back to the subject - "real shooters who take it seriously" and their group disdain for shoulder holsters. I could have sworn that Massad Ayoob is a real shooter who takes it seriously. But he and others have written some heretical stuff.
The SD community owes Mas a lot, in that he is the guy who popularized the recognition of Problem Number Two (ie The Fact That There Will Probably Be Legal Repercussions For Busting A Cap In Somebody's Ass) but he is also notorious for not having met a T&E gun or holster he disliked in print. Take that for what it's worth.

As far as Sawbones goes, well, he's just some guy on an internet forum, like we all are, I guess. If he typed something that reinforced your existing prejudices or desires, then rock on with it and feel free to believe that everybody else is lying to you. ;)

oboe
09-02-2011, 07:21 PM
The SD community owes Mas a lot, in that he is the guy who popularized the recognition of Problem Number Two (ie The Fact That There Will Probably Be Legal Repercussions For Busting A Cap In Somebody's Ass) but he is also notorious for not having met a T&E gun or holster he disliked in print. Take that for what it's worth.

As far as Sawbones goes, well, he's just some guy on an internet forum, like we all are, I guess. If he typed something that reinforced your existing prejudices or desires, then rock on with it and feel free to believe that everybody else is lying to you. ;)

I guess you're right. It must be Mas and Sawbones who are lying to me:D It's not possible for a reasonable and knowledgeable person to believe that there's really any use at all for shoulder holsters.;)

As I've said before, I've concluded that my first "real" holster will be a belt holster, OWB, high ride and adjustable in cant - but I've also concluded that there are various circumstances in which a shoulder holster is a reasonable alternative. Is that so far out?

Tamara
09-02-2011, 09:38 PM
Dude, I mean no offense by this but, if you already have the answers, why are you asking the questions? :confused:

JDM
09-02-2011, 09:42 PM
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd0911-9404-ce08.jpg

oboe
09-02-2011, 10:45 PM
Dude, I mean no offense by this but, if you already have the answers, why are you asking the questions? :confused:

Dudess, the reason I was asking the questions was to gather the thoughts of others. I'm a freeking beginner - I have no answers, just questions. Some times, the way I gather the thoughts of other is to say something rather than ask something. I said as much before. Did you read the previous posts?

oboe
09-02-2011, 10:46 PM
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd0911-9404-ce08.jpg

Obtuse to seek information? As I said before, I'm a beginner. Not obtuse. But the insult is taken.

DocGKR
09-02-2011, 11:05 PM
oboe, I am trumpet--let's have a chat.

You are not the only shooter who loves classical music. I played classical trumpet for many years, until I sustained an injury which prevents me from forming a proper embouchure. I still love listening to classical music--I just got another 15 Boccherini CD's this summer. I also ski--including racing in my youth and at Masters events.

Most importantly to this discussion, since 1985, at various times I have been issued, qualified with, or authorized to carry the Beretta 92F/M9, Sig P226/228 & P220, S&W 3rd gen pistols, Glock 9mm's, S&W M&P's, various 1911’s, as well as several S&W revolvers including J, K, L , and N-frames. I also have a fair degree of experience with Browning Hi-Powers, Glock 22/23 & 21, various HK pistols. I have carried a firearm for over 25 years, including daily CCW of handguns in all types of environments, transportation modes, and social settings. During that time, I've tried about every form of holster and location of carry possible. Growing up in a military family and watching guys tote their 1911's, S&W's, and Hi-Powers in shoulder holsters while in Southeast Asia made quite an impression on me, not to mention those James Bond movies, as well as Sonny Crockett on Miami Vice when I was young officer. I've tried a lot of shoulder holsters over the years........and they now reside in a dusty box. After years of training and experience, my holsters have all migrated to about a 3 o'clock carry position--whether I am using a drop leg tactical holster, duty holster, OWB, or IWB. For a while I used nice Alessi shoulder holsters for CCW in a sport coat, suit, or tuxedo but that ran counter to all my training experience and muscle memory from constant drawing at 3 o'clock. In addition, despite my best intentions and spending hundreds of dollars on them, I found that shoulder holsters were not as comfortable or effective as other carry methods. In fact it turns out that for daily CCW of a firearm, nothing works better or is more comfortable for me than IWB in the 3 o'clock position or AIWB at about 1 o'clock (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1430-What-pistol-do-you-prefer-to-carry/page6). I can hike, bike, ski, horseback ride, perform surgery, dine at a 5-star restaurant, relax at the ocean front, or go to the Symphony without any major change in mode of carry or draw stoke. In both the Sierras and Rockies, wearing typical après-ski attire, I can easily get to an AIWB pistol carried at 1 o'clock. If in colder weather like up in Alaska, then a custom holster in a large parka pocket may be the only feasible option.

oboe
09-02-2011, 11:25 PM
Doc, you carry major cred. I wish 3 0'clock could work for me - but I'm so damned bony there, it hurts. If I ever find that I can, indeed, carry at 3 without pain, you know I'll do it.

I both respect and envy your background and experience. I know that at close to 70 yo, I have no chance of having that myself.

Thanks for the post.

GJM
09-02-2011, 11:29 PM
While I would be the first to say that they would be a poor selection for a course, I routinely use shoulder and chest holsters, and they fill a specific requirement for me better than any other holster style available. Flying small bush fixed wing aircraft and helicopters, a shoulder holster is my first choice, as it keeps the handgun from digging into my back. And, I am not alone, as most other pilots I see in similar aircraft are also carrying a shoulder holster. Hunting with a heavy pack, I routinely carry a Smith 329 Scandium .44 or Glock 29 in a kydex chest rig, as it makes the handgun accessible without interfering with the pack's waist belt. I am just back from sheep hunting in the Brooks Range, north of the Arctic Circle, and from the time I stepped out of the plane thru the completion of the hunt, I wore a Glock 29 in a chest rig 24 hours a day (that means even while sleeping in the tent). During the winter, I frequently carry a Scandium .44 magnum in a chest rig over the top of my outer layer. With both the shoulder and chest rigs, I use a kydex Survival Sheath System holster which holds the handgun securely, along with other accessories. Recently, I have also been using a Hill People chest rig that swallows up a big bore revolver, plus othetr gear.

I try to pick the best holster for my activity, and depending upon what I am doing, that holster type might be IWB, OWB, AIWB, 6004, fanny pack, or the chest and shoulder holster such as shown below.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/SS.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/HP.jpg

DocGKR
09-03-2011, 12:25 AM
oboe--can you slide your holster around to 1-2 o'clock? You might also look at the Raven Concealment Systems Phantom holster, as it might meet your needs, although the wait list is long...

GKM--Pilots are frequently best served by a chest or shoulder rig, as are folks who are treking with a pack that uses a waist belt. Both the Survival Sheath Systems chest rig and the Hill People chest kit bag are good pieces of equipment.

JDM
09-03-2011, 12:52 AM
Obtuse to seek information? As I said before, I'm a beginner. Not obtuse. But the insult is taken.

It wasn't an insult. It was a joke. You're a difficult individual to give advice too, especially as a beginner.

Your OP stated that you were using shit holsters to give particular carry methods a go, and then you made your decisions based on these shit holsters (despite a myriad of people giving advice to the contrary). That's nonsense, and contrary to the entire premise of a forum like this to begin with.

Anatomical obstacles seem to be a major concern with you, and I would imagine at 70, they are probably very valid. So, I offer this: we carry the same gun, I'll send you whatever holster you want to try from my box full so long as you promise to be objective and open minded.

They include:
CCC Looper
Desbiens Gun leather #4
Raven Concealment Phantom
This (http://www.blade-tech.com/Inside-the-Waistband-IDPA-APPROVED-pr-820.html) Bladetech
Personal Security Systems OWB
Two Safariland ALS holsters.

That's a decent assortment of QUALITY holsters, that will really let you try something out.

PM me.

fuse
09-03-2011, 04:02 AM
The day is won.

The CCC Looper is worth its weight in gold right now due to the long wait, btw.

mnealtx
09-03-2011, 05:24 AM
That's a hell of an offer, BOM - kudos to you.

ToddG
09-03-2011, 07:26 AM
Very cool, BOM.

Serious question for the pilots: what is different about sitting in the pilot's seat of an airplane compared to the driver's seat in a car that makes shoulder carry so successful?

Jac
09-03-2011, 08:28 AM
Well, for one thing, ergonomics design for most light aircraft peaked in about 1947.:)

I've never carried while flying, so I can't be any more specific than that.

JDM
09-03-2011, 08:59 AM
Very cool, BOM.

Serious question for the pilots: what is different about sitting in the pilot's seat of an airplane compared to the driver's seat in a car that makes shoulder carry so successful?

In military aircraft, you have the 5pt harness to contend with, and the seats are HARD. They are designed to hold you in a very specific spot even when you weigh 800 pounds because you're in a 4 G inverted dive with a MiG 28 keeping up international relations. That doesn't lend itself well to hip carry.

GJM
09-03-2011, 09:21 AM
Very cool, BOM.

Serious question for the pilots: what is different about sitting in the pilot's seat of an airplane compared to the driver's seat in a car that makes shoulder carry so successful?

Airplanes and airplane seats, come in a wide range of sizes. Regular IWB/OWB works in the seats of many aircraft, especially larger ones. Smaller aircraft, like a SuperCub/Husky (tandem two seat aircraft flown on tundra tires intone bush) and helicopters the size of an MD530F (Littlebird) or Bell 206/407, have small seats, and four or five point seat belts. Since you often snug your seat belts tightly, to keep your body from flying around in turbulence, a handgun carried near the hip can be driven into your body creating pain in short order. In addition, most nomex flight suits have no belt loops, since even a belt, no less a holster, can be uncomfortable in many seats with a tight seat belt. In an aircraft, where you may be the only person on board, or have one known passenger, rank comfort ahead of concealibility or speed, but want a handgun on your person in case of a crash landing, a shoulder holster may be a first choice.

Recently, I have started experimenting with an HK in an appendix holster in small aircraft, and the results are promising. It is great to be able to get out of the aircraft and not have to ditch the shoulder holster for something on a belt. What I haven't experienced yet, is the kind of turbulence that bruises your hips from moving against the seat belts. Another limitation, is I often carry a .44 or Glock 29, since we have brown bears, and neither a gadget less Glock nor large frame Smith revolver work for me AIWB.

oboe
09-03-2011, 10:41 AM
I want to thank BOM publicly, as I have privately, for his very generous and kind offer - which, of course, I have accepted. Thanks again, Josh.:)

Josh Runkle
09-03-2011, 11:00 AM
We all can have our own stereotypical views of just who are gunners and who are classical music lovers. The entire gun picture will grow geometrically when the general public no longer associates the keeping and bearing of arms with the stereotypical gun owner.

But back to the subject - "real shooters who take it seriously" and their group disdain for shoulder holsters. I could have sworn that Massad Ayoob is a real shooter who takes it seriously. But he and others have written some heretical stuff. Here are a few links:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_45/ai_55605739/?tag=content;col1


http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/shr.htm

People who write articles often write them for money. You'll find many more sincere opinions on a forum, though, often the caliber of internet ninjas is fairly low. Luckily, a large amount of people on P-F are serious instructors or serious students.

In regards to articles, I once took a course from an instructor who explained how limited the uses for a laser on a firearm were (though the limited uses are very valid and necessary). During a break, he got an email from a company that rhymes with "meridian" and after class that day filmed a segment for them on the positive aspects of a laser (yet he never explained all of the negative aspects).

A shoulder holster can have its place, but probably with less than 1% of users. They most likely don't apply to you.

As for OWB or IWB, I have carried both ways, and I have holsters that are similar in design and high quality materials, and one is super comfortable, and the other is very uncomfortable. Based on my own personal experiences, I wouldn't buy anything with an adjustable cant, unless there is a way to "lock" the cant, or it is extremely minimal. It makes the holster more marketable for a "wider range" of applications, but it simply hurts more than it helps. I have no cant, kydex holsters that are super comfortable, sitting for extended hours or running. I would recommend dark star gear or raven concealment. Leather holsters, for some reason, in my experience, seem to only work with a forward cant. I'd pass on most Galco, etc, holsters that you find at a gun shop. You might have to buy a few semi-custom jobs and throw many of them away.

At the end of the day, you'll probably end up with a box of holsters you never use. You will be out the money, but you will be so happy when you find a few things that work well. The gun will be comfortable "as if it isn't even there." After you find a design or two that works, you'll never have to "try" a bunch of holsters any more. (Unless you're adventurous!)

I would TEMPORARILY NOT recommend an AIWB holster. Drawing from ANY holster requires a great amount of training; drawing from AIWB, even more so. I would HIGHLY recommend taking a basic safety course (Like an NRA course), a basic skills course (A local "defensive pistol" course beyond ccw, or something similar), intermediate and advanced level courses before attempting AIWB. Taking courses will not only build your skills, but allow someone to critique your safety and ensure that all "bad habits" are removed from your shooting process before attempting something like AIWB. Once you hit that stage, though, methods similar to AIWB may be the ticket to being faster on target.

oboe
09-03-2011, 11:25 AM
joshrunkle 35, I can believe the story about the Veridian. It also has happened in the ski manufacturing/sale world. In one case, a magazine annual equipment review issue reviewed, among others, two particular models of ski. The were of different brands and the paint jobs looked very different. One got a very high rating, the other a low so-so rating. But except for he paint job, THEY WERE EXACTLY THE SAME AND MANUFACTURED BY THE SAME COMPANY IN THE SAME PLANT! The magazine reviewers had their directions from the manufacturer's rep - one was to be positioned and a top flight model, and the other was to be positioned as an economy model. Knowing that kind of stuff, I can believe that the same thing can happen in the gun manufacturing/sale world.

One of the links I posted did review different brands, but the one by Massad Ayoob seemed merely to discuss the concept of shoulder holsters. Unless I missed something, no one was recommending a should rig over a belt rig. I think each said that a belt rig was preferable but there are situations where shoulder holsters could be used.

My ONLY interest in shoulder holsters was to find a way to carry without pain and with access the the weapon while driving a car, or other sitting uses. For the chair in which I'm now sitting, no special arrangement is needed, while sitting on a cushy couch or in a car does cause a problem - or at least, it HAS caused a problem.

All that said, BOM has very graciously offered to me the opportunity to try several of the holsters he owns. When I've used one for a week of driving, sitting, and just wearing, and removing when I'm about to enter a no-guns zone, my questions will no doubt be answered.

Josh Runkle
09-03-2011, 11:55 AM
One of the links I posted did review different brands, but the one by Massad Ayoob seemed merely to discuss the concept of shoulder holsters. Unless I missed something, no one was recommending a should rig over a belt rig. I think each said that a belt rig was preferable but there are situations where shoulder holsters could be used.



My point is simply that those situations most likely don't apply to you. (Or me) If you have very little distance between your chest and the wheel of a car, where you can't "roll" your gun out of an OWB/IWB over/past the steering wheel (like in a super-tiny smart car) or the vehicle has a large console in the middle (like in some work vans) and you can't reach back and pull up, or if you can't move your leg out of the way during the drawstroke, etc...If there is a physical limitation to the vehicle, then a shoulder holster is an option. If you spend many hours in a parked, exposed, seated position (like on a stakeout), it may make sense to some, though I would rather solve it with training before solving it with gear.

Then, look at the downsides to a shoulder holster (which probably aren't mentioned in articles):
1. You have to draw past a part of your body (especially when ripping clothing open or rapidly unzipping a coat), or, you need a large amount of upward space to push your strong/weapon elbow in the air during the drawstroke to maintain extension from a retention position.
2. You can't draw and fire in extremely close quarters...if someone's laying on you, you have few options as opposed to other carry methods.
3. In ECQC (extreme close quarters combat, where you're making physical contact with an assailant while possibly shooting) The assailant is in a much better position to take your gun away from you, or negate its usage against them (retention issues and affect issues)
4. Moisture from sweat is far worse than most other carry methods (though, honestly, this isn't that big of a deal)

I always weigh risks/benefits, and don't personally see enough benefits to outweight the risks.

oboe
09-03-2011, 12:02 PM
Yes, these risks and problems were addressed. Again, if I can find a OWB or IWB that works for me in the car and can be removed conveniently, I'd have no wish to pursue a shoulder holster except to carry the BUG or for certain special situations. While driving the car, I just don't want to feel a chunk of hard stuff jabbing me, I don't want to be unable to defend myself because the gun is tied up in the seat belt or being sat on by my ass, and I do want a convenient mode of removal for those times when entering a no-gun zone. That's it. I have no preconceived notions or vested interest is what works - I just want to find it.

jslaker
09-03-2011, 08:03 PM
In the comfort realm, 3:00 definitely does not work for me. Move it up to 2:30 or 3:30-4:00, and it works wonderfully. I've actually found myself moving progressivelly forward of the hip for comfort and concealibility reasons, but it took about 3.5 years of EDC and the people here poisoning my mind for months to get to the point that I was comfortable with the idea. :)

I currently carry in a position similar to Mr. Ralston - around 2:00 with slight cant. It gets the gun in a position the rides comfortably against my hip while still allowing easy access.

Tamara
09-03-2011, 08:45 PM
Okay, if you're bound and determined to buy a shoulder holster for day-to-day CCW, here's what I've learned from shoulder holsters:

Toss the nylon vertical shoulder rig. It sucks. Spend the money for a good one. The bottom-end price point should be the Galco Miami Classic; anything cheaper than that is a wretched, pulsating ball of suck and fail.

Spend a night or two, preferably with a friend or spouse, in front of a mirror, getting all the straps adjusted so that the Chicago screws are in their proper holes.

Spend the money to get the double mag carrier for the off-side so as to at least slightly balance the weight of the holstered pistol.

Buy a 'Blue Gun' (and maybe also an airsoft gun) to practice your draw so that you don't put a round through your brachial artery should you have to draw for realz.

oboe
09-03-2011, 08:54 PM
I am neither bound nor determined to have a shoulder holster, as I have been most graciously offered the opportunity to try several holsters provided by BOM, and I have accepted the offer. There are many advantages to carrying in a shoulder holster, and muzzling a lot of unintended targets including my brachial artery are not among them. It seems that the carry is hunky dory but the drawing and shooting ain't so hot.

Nevertheless, some time down the road I owe it to myself to become proficient in drawing and shooting from a shoulder holster.

Meanwhile, I am seriously looking forward to receiving the first try-owt IWB from BOM.

ubervic
09-03-2011, 08:56 PM
So let it be written; so let it be DONE

oboe
09-03-2011, 09:03 PM
Not so fast, ubervic. I'll post again after the trying out is DONE.

DrFlsGood
09-05-2011, 01:13 PM
Oboe I carry in a Blackhawk Serpa, at the 4:30 position, driving can be uncomfortable with the butt of the gun sometimes pressing on the kidney (back) area. What I discovered was that by turning the pistol around in the Serpa, the pistol is in a cross draw position. This works while driving, but be careful getting out of the car. Remember to pur the weapon in the correct position. Or it may drop out of the holster upon exiting the vehicle.

I learned this technique in a class from Sig Academy, on shooting with the non- dominant hand. It was a technique that allowed you to turn the grip and allow you to properly draw with your weapon.

Sounds unconventional, but it works while driving, for me anyway. FMOWW.

Mike

oboe
09-05-2011, 01:16 PM
Candidly, I being just a beginner, that just has the sound of trouble. I'd think that the better practice would be to remove the rig while driving, placing it in some other contraption designed for in-car use.

ToddG
09-05-2011, 01:26 PM
Reversing the gun in the holster:

Now you're relying on a WHO cross draw. How often do you practice your WHO cross draw?
Some SERPA and similar holsters will actually occassionally lock the pistol when it goes in the holster backwards; be very careful before committing your gun to this.


Car-mounted holster:

What happens if you need to exit the car quickly with other people around who shouldn't see you have a gun?
In a car accident, even a relatively minor one, the gun/holster could go flying.


Given how few people actually draw and fire from the driver's seat, it seems like a particularly odd thing to focus on. Don't get me wrong, I think being able to draw from a seated position is important. But that ability should extend to any time or place that involves being seated and not some specific behind-the-steering-wheel special technique.

oboe
09-05-2011, 01:47 PM
Here in Palm Beach County, at least one driver saved his own life through shooting from his car. A fair percentage of self-defense scenarios happen with the target victim in the car. It is an important consideration. I see that a number of rigs are sold for the purpose of holding the gun off-body while driving. Nevertheless, I will search for a strong-side holster that can be utilized from a sitting position.

It was car carry in particular that piqued my interest in starting this thread, so seated access to the gun from a strong-side holster will be something the Holy Grail for me.

DocGKR
09-05-2011, 01:59 PM
I have ZERO problems accessing a pistol in an IWB holster at 3 o'clock--further back can become an issue, as can further forward with my body type. Likewise access to an ankle BUG was also quite good from the driver's seat. Off-body carry in the car is pretty lame--unless it is for a second or third pistol, then I can see the benefit.

RUN! Run away from the Serpa DEATH!

oboe
09-05-2011, 02:25 PM
Perhaps my clock reading is off. It seems to me that the bony iliac crest on my body is at 3 an that 3:45 is the first place behind that capable of supporting a gun and holster with serious discomfort approaching pain. It appears that each individual has his or her own possibilities that, unfortunately, aren't transferable to everyone else.

Tamara
09-05-2011, 04:55 PM
Here in Palm Beach County, at least one driver saved his own life through shooting from his car. <snip> I see that a number of rigs are sold for the purpose of holding the gun off-body while driving.
And two counties to the south, Agent Manauzzi probably wished he'd left it in his belt holster...

DocGKR
09-05-2011, 05:01 PM
Touché!

ToddG
09-05-2011, 05:19 PM
I'm pretty sure I never said "it never happens."

I'm fairly certain I didn't say "it isn't important."

What I said is that (a) it's rare and less of a consideration, and (b) it shouldn't be something that requires a special piece of gear or technique.

"There was this one guy once" is a dangerous approach to decision making, as demonstrated.

oboe
09-05-2011, 05:59 PM
In the case of saving your own life, "There was once this guy" is not inconsiderable. And I have no idea what happened to that guy "two counties south" of Palm Beach County. That said, my Holy Grail remains a belt mounted holder system from which I can draw while seated at the steering wheel and that does not cause me so much discomfort that I won't wear it in that situation. I'm looking forward to starting my try-outs from BOM.

oboe
09-05-2011, 07:05 PM
Thanks for the input, Erik. I'm actually set to try out other holsters, including IWB and OWB.

TGS
09-05-2011, 11:10 PM
I have no idea what happened to that guy "two counties south" of Palm Beach County.

1986 Miami FBI shootout. If you're the least bit serious about handguns being used in self-defense, research this.

oboe
09-06-2011, 09:06 AM
And two counties to the south, Agent Manauzzi probably wished he'd left it in his belt holster...

Apparently, FBI Agent Manauzzi removed his gun from its holster and placed it on the seat, so it was not available to him when the car crashed and the pistol slid out. In no way have I been suggesting that a pistol carried off-body in the car should be loose and unsecured. Again, the Holy Grail is strong side on-body in a way that is not so uncomfortable in the car that one would feel the need to remove it. That said, if the Holy Grail is not found, the next places to go - at least in the car - are shoulder holster or off-body in a secured holster.

Tamara
09-06-2011, 09:33 AM
Apparently, FBI Agent Manauzzi removed his gun from its holster and placed it on the seat, so it was not available to him...
No, the takeaway lesson here is that Manauzzi had to un-ass the vehicle in the middle of a raging gunfight without a firearm secured to his body. It doesn't matter if it's because it was loose on the seat, secured in some special "car holster", or duct-taped to the headliner.

oboe
09-06-2011, 09:36 AM
. . . so my question - why did he take it out of his holster in the first place?

Tamara
09-06-2011, 09:40 AM
. . . so my question - why did he take it out of his holster in the first place?
I'm no clairvoyant, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was because apparently he didn't feel he had adequately trained in drawing from the holster while seated, and sought a hardware solution to a software problem.

oboe
09-06-2011, 09:56 AM
That's one reasonable hypothesis. Another is that the strong side on the belt location of his weapon made it really difficult to draw regardless of training. If the second hypothesis were fact, the solution would be another location for carry while driving. The jury's still out for me. If I find an acceptable strong side belt carry that works while behind the steering wheel, my search is over. Haven't even begun the try-out period yet [IWB will be in the mail to me today].

JeffJ
09-06-2011, 10:08 AM
That's one reasonable hypothesis. Another is that the strong side on the belt location of his weapon made it really difficult to draw regardless of training. If the second hypothesis were fact, the solution would be another location for carry while driving. The jury's still out for me. If I find an acceptable strong side belt carry that works while behind the steering wheel, my search is over. Haven't even begun the try-out period yet [IWB will be in the mail to me today].

Or a dedicated gun in the console, there are aftermarket lockable consoles available for most makes of vehicles. Get in car, unlock console, get to destination, lock console. If you feel that your vehicle is especially prone to burglary, bad idea. Other than that, keep your serial numbers and insure your guns.

I don't think this is ideal, but I think it's a worse idea to be handling your gun everytime you enter and exit the vehicle - every time is an AD waiting to happen. It's safer to leave it the holster, but if you're taking off and on your holster throughout the day you are probably eventually going to just leave the gun in the car, because that is a giant PITA.

Tamara
09-06-2011, 10:17 AM
That's one reasonable hypothesis. Another is that the strong side on the belt location of his weapon made it really difficult to draw regardless of training. If the second hypothesis were fact...
As multiple people in this thread have already stated, the second hypothesis is not fact. Further, it is the opposite of fact.

You lean forward and draw the gun pretty much just like you would when you were standing. Unless you're suffering from some chronic range-of-mobility issues, there's no drama to it, especially if you're engaging targets to the passenger side. To the driver's side you need to get the muzzle over the steering wheel, but that's a separate issue from the drawstroke.

ToddG
09-06-2011, 10:20 AM
No, the takeaway lesson here is that Manauzzi had to un-ass the vehicle in the middle of a raging gunfight without a firearm secured to his body.

Thank you.

Josh Runkle
09-06-2011, 10:24 AM
That's one reasonable hypothesis. Another is that the strong side on the belt location of his weapon made it really difficult to draw regardless of training. If the second hypothesis were fact, the solution would be another location for carry while driving. The jury's still out for me. If I find an acceptable strong side belt carry that works while behind the steering wheel, my search is over. Haven't even begun the try-out period yet [IWB will be in the mail to me today].

The difficulty is training, not equipment. It is perfectly possible to draw from under a coat, while in a seatbelt. Someone just has to show you how to do it, then you have to practice it until you can do it without thinking about it. ...a few months ago I was in California and a guy in a vehicle in front of me at a light threw his car into reverse and came straight back at me and rammed the rear end of his vehicle into the front end of mine. While he simply turned out to be a drunk crazy person, instinct kicked in as it was happening, I put my head against the head rest, took the impact, released the seatbelt and exited the vehicle, all in (what I perceive to be) about 2 seconds. While I wasn't consciously thinking about someone trying to ambush or kidnap me (and while it certainly wasn't the case), my body was evidently thinking that, and it reacted.

It is definitely possible to solve a lot of these vehicle related "problems", and while many companies make tons of gear to solve them, solving them with training is the best thing to do, in the end, as it will still work when your equipment fails or abandons you.

As for your discomfort with holsters on the waist, 95%, it's probably that holster, and not your body. Even some expensive holsters can be uncomfortable for me, but eventually I found a few that were great, so comfortable that I forget I'm wearing them.

While shoulder holsters do have valid uses, I still believe that they apply to 1% of people. From what you've said, I don't think they apply to you at all. They are much harder to inconspicuously remove in a vehicle than just about any system, even an OWB holster. You will look like you're having a private dance party in the parking lot, and people may even see you removing the gun through the windows, which they probably wouldn't see if it were on your waistband, assuming your windows sit above your waist. This leads to a potential for someone knowing you have a gun and stealing your gun while you're in the store.

I'm simply trying to save you $150, as that holster will stay in a box a year or two from now.

While people wearing packs with shoulder/waist straps might wear a shoulder holster, it really only should apply to someone like a guide, who constantly carries in that position. Someone who draws from the strong side should try something similar, but not the same, like pocket carry or exposed/open carry on the pack to mimic the similarities in the drawstroke. Obviously this won't work for something like a S&W 500, but at that point, you carry as you need to, not as you like to.

oboe
09-06-2011, 10:25 AM
As multiple people in this thread have already stated, the second hypothesis is not fact. Further, it is the opposite of fact.

You lean forward and draw the gun pretty much just like you would when you were standing. Unless you're suffering from some chronic range-of-mobility issues, there's no drama to it, especially if you're engaging targets to the passenger side. To the driver's side you need to get the muzzle over the steering wheel, but that's a separate issue from the drawstroke.

As I said, I haven't yet started the try-out process and haven't started any training of that sort. I'll be happy to share my experiences, but first I must HAVE them. You people are light-years ahead of me on this.

David Armstrong
09-06-2011, 11:09 AM
Personally I'm not sure where all this "nobody serious about it" carries in a shoulder holster came from. Shoulder rigs have been and still are used by plenty of very serious people all over the world. They don't show up much for range competition and formal training in the U.S. because they don't work well for that due to range rules, but way too many people carry shoulder rigs way too often for them to simply be dismissed out of hand as a viable option. For someone who is working in a vehicle quite a bit they become a pretty good choice, in fact. My $.02.

TGS
09-06-2011, 11:11 AM
As I said, I haven't yet started the try-out process and haven't started any training of that sort. I'll be happy to share my experiences, but first I must HAVE them. You people are light-years ahead of me on this.

I think what's prompting people to respond so vigorously is that you are still ardently supporting shoulder holsters as if they ARE the best option for some very....unique...reasons.

There's a difference between proclaiming absolutes and probing for answers with writing, "I was wondering if there's an issue with drawing IWB at 3-4 O'Clock while seated in a car, and if a shoulder holster would be a good option?"

TGS
09-06-2011, 11:16 AM
Shoulder rigs have been and still are used by plenty of very serious people all over the world.

I'd be interested to hear of these people.

There's a difference between people who are serious about carrying a gun comfortably because it's required to be carried, and people who are serious about effectively using a gun.

Besides TV programming, I haven't heard of shoulder holsters being in vogue for shootists since the earliest SWAT teams where they carried shoulder holsters because drop rigs hadn't yet been invented.

ToddG
09-06-2011, 11:23 AM
Personally I'm not sure where all this "nobody serious about it" carries in a shoulder holster came from.

I didn't mean, "No one with a serious demeanor."

I meant "no one who is serious about training." I don't see them. Ever. I don't know anyone who advocates them. In over a thousand hours of formal firearms instruction I've received, I've seen exactly one student, in the mid-90's, who showed up wearing a shoulder holster. By the end of a 2-day class, he swore he'd never use one again.

Gear that I cannot train with seriously = gear that is not serious.

mnealtx
09-06-2011, 11:29 AM
I see a fair amount of them over here with the military, mostly misadjusted. Also a fair amount of equally jacked-up drop leg rigs. Last in line are the cheapie nylon belt rigs, usually some variant on a Yaqui slide.

David Armstrong
09-06-2011, 11:38 AM
I'd be interested to hear of these people.

There's a difference between people who are serious about carrying a gun comfortably because it's required to be carried, and people who are serious about effectively using a gun.

Besides TV programming, I haven't heard of shoulder holsters being in vogue for shootists since the earliest SWAT teams where they carried shoulder holsters because drop rigs hadn't yet been invented.
All I can say is that I've carried a gun in a number of places around the world, associating with some really serious folks, and shoulder holsters were quite commonly chosen by those folks. I don't mind admitting that I regularly chose a shoulder rig when I was doing EP work and assorted other assignments. I think it was already mentioned, but for those that haven't looked at it read Mas Ayoob's article at http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_45/ai_55605739/?tag=mantle_skin;content for a good analysis of why and when the shoulder rig is an appropriate choice. I don't know that much about TV carry, but I do know a lot of LE and military people who are pretty darned serious about this stuff that use a shoulder rig on a regular basis.

David Armstrong
09-06-2011, 11:44 AM
I didn't mean, "No one with a serious demeanor."

I meant "no one who is serious about training." I don't see them. Ever. I don't know anyone who advocates them. In over a thousand hours of formal firearms instruction I've received, I've seen exactly one student, in the mid-90's, who showed up wearing a shoulder holster. By the end of a 2-day class, he swore he'd never use one again.

Gear that I cannot train with seriously = gear that is not serious.

In all fairness, is that the result of people not being allowed to train while using a shoulder rig, or a training regime that is unfriendly to shoulder rigs, as opposed to anything else? I ask because when I was doing training I often was asked about using a shoulder rig, and most were surprised when I told them I didn't care, as they had been prohibited by others. I did tell them it might slow them down a bit, as 200 reps of "draw, fire, assess, re-holster" can become a real hassle with a shoulder rig.

ToddG
09-06-2011, 11:50 AM
That's precisely my point. A piece of gear that makes it difficult to get in a serious practice session is a hindrance to skill-building and thus not something I'd consider "serious."

As TGS said, there's a difference between "serious people who have to carry a gun" and "people who are serious about using a gun." The former might use shoulder holsters in great numbers; the latter don't seem to.

oboe
09-06-2011, 11:53 AM
I think what's prompting people to respond so vigorously is that you are still ardently supporting shoulder holsters as if they ARE the best option for some very....unique...reasons.

There's a difference between proclaiming absolutes and probing for answers with writing, "I was wondering if there's an issue with drawing IWB at 3-4 O'Clock while seated in a car, and if a shoulder holster would be a good option?"

If any impression is given that I'm "still ardently supporting shoulder holsters", it's WRONG. What I AM saying is that the reason I started this thread is because that seemed [past tense] to be the only way I could carry without pain in a car. I also said that I'm awaiting my first try-out holster [IWB] - first of several - and that I would have nothing of any moment to report until I'd tried them out. While I have no reason to doubt the expertise and experience of posters here, I'm starting to question ability to read and comprehend. So, to be perfectly clear, at this time I am NOT ADVOCATING ANYTHING. Maybe you were reading something posted by another person.

My goal: Find a strong side belt carry holster that will feel bearably comfortable, including while behind the steering wheel of a car. I also said that when I find that, my search will be over. So please do not attribute to me that which I did not post.

David Armstrong
09-06-2011, 12:00 PM
That's precisely my point. A piece of gear that makes it difficult to get in a serious practice session is a hindrance to skill-building and thus not something I'd consider "serious."
But the only reason it makes it difficult to get in a serious practice session is that the range rules have said don't do it. I can't see that as being a key element in "serious". It would seem that using that as a criterion "seriousness" would be defined by location and access instead of equipment and technique. If, for example, ranges and trainers were to suddenly decide that AIWB was dangerous and would not be allowed on the range, would that then mean those who carried AIWB were not serious?


As TGS said, there's a difference between "serious people who have to carry a gun" and "people who are serious about using a gun." The former might use shoulder holsters in great numbers; the latter don't seem to.
As I pointed out, my experience seems to disagree with that, and it would seem to be rather circular in definition as well as totally arbitrary. YMMV.

TGS
09-06-2011, 12:10 PM
As I pointed out, my experience seems to disagree with that, and it would seem to be rather circular in definition as well as totally arbitrary. YMMV.

I'd still like to hear who specifically these people are. Not names, but positions/titles/organizations would work. I don't know of anyone in the shooter communities that uses shoulder rigs.....they're extremely popular among fobbits, though.

oboe
09-06-2011, 12:15 PM
From public bio of David Armstrong: "A diverse 30+ year background of both military and law enforcement experience, with a lot of time spent teaching others to fight with firearms. Also had the opportunity to participate in some training many others don't get, which gives me a different perspective on some things."

Current occupation: "Mild mannered college professor".

I've bought my popcorn, so I'm ready to sit back and enjoy the discourse.

ToddG
09-06-2011, 12:27 PM
Dr. DA -- It's not merely a matter of range rules. It's simple functionality. You said it yourself... doing 200 reps of draw & fire with a shoulder holster is more tedious than doing it with a more traditional belt holster. If I practice less, my skill is less. Thus, anything that hinders my practice hinders my skill and is of questionable value.

What it really boils down to is this: what can a shoulder holster do for me that a belt-line holster cannot, and are those alleged advantages enough to outweigh the disadvantages? In my experience, serious shooters unanimously answer that question in the negative. So while there may be some unusual specific circumstances in which a shoulder holster is necessary (e.g., in a 5-point harness as mentioned above) it's not something I would choose given the option to carry behind the hip or aiwb.

Odin Bravo One
09-06-2011, 02:02 PM
they're extremely popular among fobbits, though.


And they are the scariest gun handlers of them all.......................ugh.

oboe
09-06-2011, 02:14 PM
What's a fobbit?

seabiscuit
09-06-2011, 02:39 PM
What's a fobbit?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=fobbit

Google "fobbit." Faster than typing "What's a fobbit?"

oboe
09-06-2011, 02:40 PM
Seabisquet, I care not what Google says - I care what the poster INTENDS.

Josh Runkle
09-06-2011, 02:48 PM
In all fairness, is that the result of people not being allowed to train while using a shoulder rig, or a training regime that is unfriendly to shoulder rigs, as opposed to anything else? I ask because when I was doing training I often was asked about using a shoulder rig, and most were surprised when I told them I didn't care, as they had been prohibited by others. I did tell them it might slow them down a bit, as 200 reps of "draw, fire, assess, re-holster" can become a real hassle with a shoulder rig.

Going with what you're saying, and not disagreeing...


Let's say it is unfriendly range rules...why use a system that you can't train with? If someone could scientifically prove that ass-less chaps improved your shooting, or you were the professional that felt that they helped with your job, but no range would permit them and you couldn't train with them, why not switch to a system that you can train with?

Also, many ranges don't permit the usage of ANY holsters. The ones that do seem to let students use them provided that there is no one behind the student, and that the student knows how to use it properly, and the latter is often more violated than the first.

GJM
09-06-2011, 03:59 PM
I'd still like to hear who specifically these people are. Not names, but positions/titles/organizations would work. I don't know of anyone in the shooter communities that uses shoulder rigs.....they're extremely popular among fobbits, though.

Pilots, non-pilots that ride in smaller aircraft, people carrying heavy packs, and people wading in streams with grizzly bears around, commonly wear shoulder and chest rigs. Many of them are serious shooters. Not too long ago, I was hunting on the Alaska Peninsula, when a Trooper Super Cub on floats landed to check us out, and the pilot was wearing a Glock .40 in a shoulder holster. After some discussion, it turned out this trooper was an ex-SEAL, responsible for coordinating many groups through the Rogers School. You can read his name and testimonial on the Rogers School web site.

TGS
09-06-2011, 04:28 PM
Pilots, non-pilots that ride in smaller aircraft, people carrying heavy packs, and people wading in streams with grizzly bears around, commonly wear shoulder and chest rigs. Many of them are serious shooters. Not too long ago, I was hunting on the Alaska Peninsula, when a Trooper Super Cub on floats landed to check us out, and the pilot was wearing a Glock .40 in a shoulder holster. After some discussion, it turned out this trooper was an ex-SEAL, responsible for coordinating many groups through the Rogers School. You can read his name and testimonial on the Rogers School web site.

GJM,

In those circumstances a shoulder holster can make sense, no doubt. However, we already covered that a couple times, along with physical impairments. Since we already beat that horse a few times, I thought it was done. Along with David's surprise that we be haterz on the shoulder rig, I figured he was claiming that these "very serious guys" are using shoulder holsters instead of belt holsters regardless, and in the context of concealment given the nature of this thread.

Speaking of this thread, I think it's getting a bit long winded. I don't want to be a part of turning the hard work of Todd and the staff at P-F.com into another gun forum, so I'm out of this thread.

GJM
09-06-2011, 04:59 PM
You probably are right. This thread has gotten so long, and convoluted, that it is hard to read and remember each twist and turn, and I am guilty of skimming much of it. I probably am a little thin skinned/reactive, when I come back from flying, take my shoulder holster off, and read I am a dork. :)

While this thread has stayed more polite than I am accustomed to seeing on other forums, I agree it has reached a point of diminishing return. Not sure why so much effort has been expended convincing someone of the obvious. It is like if a guy comes to me and tells me that he wants to carry his new Judge with shot loads for brown bear defense, I might tell him twice it is a bad idea, and then just wait to read about in the papers.

oboe
09-06-2011, 05:00 PM
Being the culprit who started this thread, (a) I thank all contributors, (b) I'll report back in a new thread when I reach the end of the trial process, and (c) it will not hurt my feelings and I will not take umbrage should the thread be locked. Thanks again!

Kyle Reese
09-06-2011, 05:13 PM
Thread locked per OP's request, as well as having run it's course.