reholstering

[cracker]

The one thing that really bothers me when training is the speed that you are required to re-holster. You are given commands to do everything as fast as you accurately can, re-holster to do it again as fast as you can. I do not like re holstering again and again while my shirt is getting sloppy and things are just getting a little out of place I am very conscious of my clothing and my trigger but I hate holstering fast. It also makes me nervous that others might not be as conscious. This really bugs me when we are doing drills in the dark with the flashlights. Most AD’s in relation to drawing drills happen while re-holstering. Instructors in my opinion need to slow down, I am not saying we need to slow down the draw and the firing or the reloads just time for the re holster. I know one instructor that would stop and give people time to re adjust their cloth so no clothes would grab a trigger while reholstering. I might also add I use a striker fire with no safety, and this would be the only reason I can see having one on a striker. Please give me your thoughts on why a fast reholster would be necessary and if you think it is needed in training.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I'm not going to say there would never be a need to reholster quickly, but I don't do it fast at all. I always go slowly and carefully and it's never been an issue with any of the training I've done, which is quite a bit.

If you're going to instructors who push people on the reholster...I'd go elsewhere.

[Dagga Boy]

You "should" have the ability to re-holster in a crisis. You do not need to train that live, and I would suggest not doing it live. Holster ing optimally is done reluctantly. Some of the worst habits I see on the range are speed holstering and poor post shooting habits.
When I trained my guys,they were required to holster a fully loaded firearm if possible. Meaning,they had to conduct post shooting processing and SOP's and then perform a Tac load. This very much builds great habits in that by going to a ready, truly assessing, and performing a Tac load also does several other things. It gets situational awareness back, it gets fingers out of trigger guards, it allows time for de-cocking and safety re-engagement as needed.
I think many trainers and venues make the mistake of not allowing or emphasizing post shooting activities. Simply choices in what you are doing, and priorities.

[HopetonBrown]

Who is forcing you to reholster quickly? If I might need to tuck my shirt in I'll get the instructors attention or I'll just skip the next iteration.

[Cookie Monster]

I've been at plenty of classes where the pace of drills is too fast to do a good reluctant holster. Keep at your own pace and skip a drill if you have to.

I've also been the only guy IWB holster that actually conceals where everyone else is rocking the OWB that is like 3 inches away from your body and are not running concealed. Just got to go at your own pace.

Cookie Monster

[BJXDS]

The one thing that really bothers me when training is the speed that you are required to re-holster. You are given commands to do everything as fast as you accurately can, re-holster to do it again as fast as you can. I do not like re holstering again and again while my shirt is getting sloppy and things are just getting a little out of place I am very conscious of my clothing and my trigger but I hate holstering fast. It also makes me nervous that others might not be as conscious. This really bugs me when we are doing drills in the dark with the flashlights. Most AD’s in relation to drawing drills happen while re-holstering. Instructors in my opinion need to slow down, I am not saying we need to slow down the draw and the firing or the reloads just time for the re holster. I know one instructor that would stop and give people time to re adjust their cloth so no clothes would grab a trigger while reholstering. I might also add I use a striker fire with no safety, and this would be the only reason I can see having one on a striker. Please give me your thoughts on why a fast reholster would be necessary and if you think it is needed in training.

Re-holstering as fast as you can and in the dark too, WTF!. Seriously, did you have an instructor tell you to re-holster as fast as you can?

[Gadfly]

I have seen a few situation where you need to holster quickly and without looking at the holster. But they are all more police issues than CHL. I have had my gun out and immediately needed to holster to go hands on. Being able to go straight to the holster, without looking, in an expedicious fashion is sometimes useful... It's probably best learned and practice with a red gun. But on the range, we tell folks it is not a race back to the holster. The FIs chant "scan left, scan right, check 6, then re holster and snap in" after each stage. If you just had to shoot at someone, there is no need to go back to the holster until you have back up or you are sure the threat is down.

-------------
Side note on re holstering: I had a co worker watching the side of a house while we were banging on the door. Bad guy jumped out a window (through the glass) and my co worker and he got into a scuffle. Co worked had drawn his gun, then got into a wrestling match almost instantly. He had a cheap ass suede IBW holster and could not physically re holster. He ended up having to pistol whip the suspect, until the guys at the front door got around to the side of the house. Could our guy have legally shot the suspect? Probably. But from the jump out the window to full on fight was about 2 seconds. Then for the other agents to come subdue the suspect, roughly 10 seconds. After the fray, he said he wanted to re holster, but couldn't, so he was committed to the pistol in hand with the bad guy wraped around his leg attempting a takedown. As you can guess, OPR (our internal affairs) was called out and a big stink ensued... The agents career survived and he has a much better holster theses days.

[DNW]

The FIs chant "scan left, scan right, check 6, then re holster and snap in" after each stage.


Sort of off topic, but I don't think this type of range behavior does much to promote post-shooting behavior. What it does do is teach people the "courtesy scan" mostly done to appease the range master if he doesn't see their heads moving. People swing their heads around, don't actually pay attention to anything, and still run back to the holster. I am fine with trying to promote scanning, but the problem with doing it with no context is that seeing is a mental process, not a movement. Shooters need to pay "attention" and actually look at what other people are doing on the range, really check or top off the weapon, actually communicate, and not just run through range dances.

[Chuck Haggard]

Anyone who forces a speed reholster outside of very specific LE related criteria AND while one is using a duty type rig, or forces the pace of drills at that tempo so that students can not safely reholster or have time to do a post-shooting evaluation, is doing it wrong.

Trying to force a reholster when clothing has made doing so unsafe is a sign that the instructor isn't paying attention to some really important stuff.

[rsa-otc]

Everything folks have said up to this point is spot on. the only thing that I would add is that if your shirt does get caught up in the holster DO NOT tug on the shirt to clear it. I have witnessed quite a few supposedly "Turned On" shooters, instructors and SO's start tugging on the shirt when they notice it's caught up in the holster. Usually while I'm in the middle of screaming across the range for them to FREESE.

To prevent the gun from making loud unintentional noises carefully remove the gun from the holster then clear the shirt. Again I only say this because I have even witnessed instructors from our State Police academy staff make this mistake.

[Chuck Haggard]

I strongly concur RSA, good post.

[Gadfly]

Sort of off topic, but I don't think this type of range behavior does much to promote post-shooting behavior. What it does do is teach people the "courtesy scan" mostly done to appease the range master if he doesn't see their heads moving. People swing their heads around, don't actually pay attention to anything, and still run back to the holster. I am fine with trying to promote scanning, but the problem with doing it with no context is that seeing is a mental process, not a movement. Shooters need to pay "attention" and actually look at what other people are doing on the range, really check or top off the weapon, actually communicate, and not just run through range dances.

I totally agree with this assessment of our chant. But it is the best you can do with some people. Sadly, we have to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator. If it sticks with a few of them, then it is better than us not saying anything...

[Dave J]

More than once, I've been the only student in a class working from concealed AIWB. While I don't recall ever having an instructor specifically tell me to holster faster, I'm frequently the slowest when it comes to putting the gun away. I've adopted a very firm attitude that I won't be rushed, and I won't do a no-look reholster with a live gun in training, no matter what anyone else says or does. It's my body that's at risk from an ND, not theirs, and I really don't give a rat's ass if anyone gets upset about me holding up the line for a couple extra seconds.

[JohnO]

Anyone who forces a speed reholster outside of very specific LE related criteria AND while one is using a duty type rig, or forces the pace of drills at that tempo so that students can not safely reholster or have time to do a post-shooting evaluation, is doing it wrong.

Trying to force a reholster when clothing has made doing so unsafe is a sign that the instructor isn't paying attention to some really important stuff.

Absolutely! If there is a valid reason to re-holster quickly I haven't found it yet. If I was training with an instructor that encouraged putting the gun away quickly I would Leave Quickly! There are a million reasons for getting the gun out of the holster quickly not so going back.

Aside from the dangers of an AD/ND with "Speed Re-holstering" practitioners are setting themselves up for trouble. What you do in training... The day could come when you still need it but training taught you to put it away.

[TGS]

I strongly concur RSA, good post.

I agree. He's a smart dude and runs a good program for his people.

____________

To build on the topic of holstering during classes:

Both in the past and more recently, I've been exposed to the idea of reholstering "like you draw" in order to make the action an additional rep to build more muscle memory (or whatever you want to call it) for the draw.

Personally, I do not abide by this line of thinking. To me, reholstering is its own independent action which demands its own process to be practiced entirely separate from drawing.

[Wendell]

I've been at plenty of classes where the pace of drills is too fast to do a good reluctant holster. Keep at your own pace and skip a drill if you have to. I've also been the only guy IWB holster that actually conceals where everyone else is rocking the OWB that is like 3 inches away from your body and are not running concealed. Just got to go at your own pace.

Exactly!

I think the reason that instructors increase the pace is to have the class perform a meaningful number of repetitions in the limited time frame. Many - if not most - students seem to come to class with full-size guns in open-top OWB holsters, and many seem to enjoy slamming their pistol home. If you're going to carry AIWB, with a cover garment, and you intend to practice safely, you have to keep your focus on safety, accept that you're going to be beaten by the rest of the class on the re-holstering, and just be content with your better draw times.

[41magfan]

I have seen a few situation where you need to holster quickly and without looking at the holster. But they are all more police issues than CHL. I have had my gun out and immediately needed to holster to go hands on. Being able to go straight to the holster, without looking, in an expedicious fashion is sometimes useful... It's probably best learned and practice with a red gun. But on the range, we tell folks it is not a race back to the holster. The FIs chant "scan left, scan right, check 6, then re holster and snap in" after each stage. If you just had to shoot at someone, there is no need to go back to the holster until you have back up or you are sure the threat is down.

-------------
Side note on re holstering: I had a co worker watching the side of a house while we were banging on the door. Bad guy jumped out a window (through the glass) and my co worker and he got into a scuffle. Co worked had drawn his gun, then got into a wrestling match almost instantly. He had a cheap ass suede IBW holster and could not physically re holster. He ended up having to pistol whip the suspect, until the guys at the front door got around to the side of the house. Could our guy have legally shot the suspect? Probably. But from the jump out the window to full on fight was about 2 seconds. Then for the other agents to come subdue the suspect, roughly 10 seconds. After the fray, he said he wanted to re holster, but couldn't, so he was committed to the pistol in hand with the bad guy wraped around his leg attempting a takedown. As you can guess, OPR (our internal affairs) was called out and a big stink ensued... The agents career survived and he has a much better holster theses days.

That accurately mirrors my experience as well and there’s lots of video out there of officers doing some pretty silly things because they can’t get the gun reholstered.

IME, there are two major factors that complicate a safe and speedy reholster; always looking at the holster when you reholster in training or on the range, and having a reholstering technique that doesn’t closely resemble a reversed draw.

As previously noted, this may not be as much of an issue outside of the law enforcement application, but in that context it's a serious and recurring issue.

[Dagga Boy]

Re holstering for LE is a critical skill for two reasons. Neither have much to do with the shooting or range side of the equation. First, you draw and have your gun out a lot in many areas. Basically it comes down to being good at both getting the gun in and out of the holster fluidly and safely. I use a very structured draw and reversal process that mirror each other. The other issue is getting a gun out of a fight. There will be times when an "unarmed" suspect or one who you believe may be armed but isn't and they will try to lure you in for a take away attempt. Trust me, this is a very bad situation. The benefit to many security holsters is they are secure and getting the gun in them during a take away attempt so you can get your hands free to deal with the threat. Again, this really doesn't require much live work.
As far as actual "post shooting" holstering. You should not be in a hurry. I actually have zero issue with people looking the gun into the holster after a shooting. I have been present at enough officer involved shootings that at the re-holster stage, many are a simple disaster and very much feeling the effects of mass adrenaline dump and chaos. I am not alone in those. Pat Rogers is on board with me as well having been at or in a ton of these as well.
Essentially, post shooting holstering, and holstering during a non-shooting incident are a different dynamic.

[scw2]

I was lurking on this thread as I didn't have much to add and just taking in the knowledge you guys shared. I happened to come across one of Tom Givens' older newsletters on what to do after you finish shooting that seems to have some good points that many of you laid out, but a benefit he laid out of not reholstering as fast as possible is that you have an opportunity to train positive on what you'd want to do after you finish shooting. The relevant article is on pages 10-11 (link: http://www.rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/2013-07-Newsletter.pdf).

[Wendell]

Must Read Info Before Attending a Vickers Tactical Inc Class (http://vickerstactical.com/training-by-larry-vickers/must-read-info-before-attending-a-vickers-tactical-inc-class/)

(Larry Vickers has disallowed IWB and AIWB from his classes.)


4) Holsters; a proper holster is critical for a pistol class. Soft nylon holsters like are commonly sold at sporting goods stores are not suitable. I have banned for several years now Serpa style (trigger finger paddle release) holsters from my classes – several other instructors and training facilities have done the same. The ONLY exception is for Police officers who are issued it for duty use. I understand many shooters use Serpa holsters on a regular basis with no issues whatsoever. However an open enrollment class environment has its own set of challenges (refer to items 1 & 2) and a trigger finger paddle release holster is asking for trouble. In addition Inside the Waistband (IWB) or appendix carry holsters are NOT suitable for my classes and are not allowed. A shooter needs to develop safe handling and holstering procedures before a more challenging holster is brought into the mix. (http://vickerstactical.com/training-by-larry-vickers/must-read-info-before-attending-a-vickers-tactical-inc-class/)

http://vickerstactical.com/training-by-larry-vickers/must-read-info-before-attending-a-vickers-tactical-inc-class/

[JHC]

I've been in a two day running discussion with a very established gun writer over the use of a blind reholster in the context of non-LE self defense. It started as a debate over his premise that only total rubes would AIWB carry but we segued to reholstering regardless of carry. He was genuinely shocked to hear anything so outlandish as looking in your reholster; it just means the shooter doesn't have many reps doncha know. This practice to avoid NDs is not as well known as I thought it had gotten to be.

[SLG]

I grew up believing that the mark of a pro was being able to reholster smoothly and quickly, without looking. Of course, aiwb was not for rubes, unless guys like Jim Cirillo were also considered rubes.

[JHC]

I grew up believing that the mark of a pro was being able to reholster smoothly and quickly, without looking. Of course, aiwb was not for rubes, unless guys like Jim Cirillo were also considered rubes.

Yeah me too. I'm old. 58+. But still not jaded enough to not feel dismayed that a guy I'd been reading with enthusiasm since the '80's was so out of the loop and dismissive of anything contrary to the dogma of his prime.

[JAD]

I don't disagree with anything written so far. However, it's good to have your crap in one sock before you go to a class. I run an IWB holster and normally wear an undershirt. I practice in that gear and can do hundreds of reps without messing with it. In a recent class, it was pretty humid and the undershirt I was wearing was a little shorter than some of my others, and I got a little creep. I promptly ditched the undershirt. Concealment gear that will foul the holster under the stress of hundreds of repetitions is worth weeding out before a class.

I was taught to reholster eyes on target in the late nineties. I got rid of the habit.

[Gadfly]

I still remember many an instructor in the Sheriff's academy and at FLETC yelling "there are many places a bad guy can be hiding, your holster is not one of those places. Keep your head up and watching for threats, especially when crowds of on lookers are gathered."

I almost never look at the holster because that is how we were drilled over and over again in the academy. But, I also don't AWIB. I agree that is a totally different animal than a no look re holster in an old Safariland 070* (* did I mention that academy was a loooong time ago)...

[Dagga Boy]

I always wonder how many actual shootings the "no look holstering or your a total loser" folks have witnessed or been in? Once I saw what happens to even the toughest bad ass cops post shooting trying to get holstered, I became very okay with looking a gun in post shooting. If you are putting it away, you should be real sure that it is safe enough and safe enough to do visually. There are training methodology to post shooting procedures to make sure they are not holstering too quickly. This way they can look it in if they need to. Again, spewed holstering is more of a defensive tactics issue than a post shooting issue and should be addressed in that context.

[Dagga Boy]

Weirdly.....just after typing this post I am watching Cops and there is an officer involved shooting. It was a textbook example of the officers condition after the shooting (which got worse with time) and he quickly looked when he holstered into an 070......and I didn't see a thing wrong with it.

[Gadfly]

I have yet to shoot anyone, thank God. But I will admit after my famous "bad guy with a baseball bat" encounter, I had a hard time dialing my phone a few minutes after. Adrenaline dumps are a bitch. But I got my gun put away with no issues. Calling my supervisor to advise what had happened proved challenging on my blackberry. I had to find a land line with big buttons on the phone.

If someone told me I would have shaky hands after an incident, but not during it, I would not have believed it.

(Getting my gun into my old style 070 was never an issue. Getting both sets of snaps snapped could be a real pain at times....)

[JHC]

I have yet to shoot anyone, thank God. But I will admit after my famous "bad guy with a baseball bat" encounter, I had a hard time dialing my phone a few minutes after. Adrenaline dumps are a bitch. But I got my gun put away with no issues. Calling my supervisor to advise what had happened proved challenging on my blackberry. I had to find a land line with big buttons on the phone.

If someone told me I would have shaky hands after an incident, but not during it, I would not have believed it.

(Getting my gun into my old style 070 was never an issue. Getting both sets of snaps snapped could be a real pain at times....)

Was that the guy wrecking his ex's vehicle? I remember that. You did good.

[Gadfly]

Was that the guy wrecking his ex's vehicle? I remember that. You did good.
No, my guy was a 21 yr old kid who was off his psych meds. He was locked out of his house by his parents, so he was beating on the front door with a baseball bat. I quickly got sucked into his storm of crazy. But the butt pucker fear was pointing my Glock at him, and him saying "you better kill me, cause I'm gonna kill you"... I functioned fine during the situation. A few minutes after it ended, the shakes set in and I felt really cold.

[TAZ]

I'm no high speed; low drag guy nor am I a cop so speed reholstering is out of the question for me. I could see some very specific LEO situations where getting a gun put away and performing some other manual task is needed; but that isn't my world. The reasons why I'd need to quickly put a gun away are cause the cops have shown up and I don't want to be ventilated. In that case I'm dropping that thing ASAFP. Couple of dents and scratches will just add character to the gun. In a training environment I'd just slow down and skip half the repetitions if the instructor was unaware enough to not adjust. If they are truly unsafe and demanding I keep up I'd pack up and leave. No amount of class fee is worth hurting myself or someone else with an ND cause someone feels the need to speed reholster.

[Mr Pink]

Why are we holstering? Typically it’s because the threat doesn’t need the pistol pointed at it anymore. As a former “high speed” guy, we were taught to look before holstering. By look, I mean a quick glance. Reluctantly prepare the pistol to be holstered by moving it towards the holster and then quickly glance as the pistol is replaced. Awareness is key.

[cracker]

Thank you all, I enjoyed the conversation and all the points of view.
Sportingly