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cpd2110
06-15-2015, 01:38 PM
Does anyone recall a lawsuit against the FBI by females who were fired for failure to qualify with the S&W 1076 10mm in the 90's? I thought I recalled reading something about that years ago and now I cannot find any information on the net. Thanks in advance.

HCM
06-15-2015, 01:56 PM
Does anyone recall a lawsuit against the FBI by females who were fired for failure to qualify with the S&W 1076 10mm in the 90's? I thought I recalled reading something about that years ago and now I cannot find any information on the net. Thanks in advance.

It was part of a broader civil rights suit, Hansen v. Webster:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/hansen_v_webster.pdf

The gun stuff was actually part of a federal civil service hearing rather then an actual lawsuit. I believe it was in the early 1980's and involved revolvers, long before the 1076.

cpd2110
06-15-2015, 02:22 PM
Thanks, I must be all turned around on the 1076.

HCM
06-15-2015, 03:29 PM
If I recall correctly, there were a bunch of issues with the 1076 across the board. The gun was relatively big and heavy for plainclothes carry peace out. I once heard an FBI agent describe it as "the size of a box of Wheaties ". And ammo was another issue. Apparently the original intent was to use full power 10 mm ammo.while manageable for a "shooter" The recoil and muzzle blast were a problem for many agents. As a result, the FBI adopted a down loaded 10mm round which matched the ballistics of a wildcat Cut down 10 mm round which eventually became the 40 Smith & Wesson. Using a bigger gun with lower capacity to deliver the same ballistics didn't make much sense.

I'm a fairly large individual and I know I wouldn't want to give up carrying a P228 for a 1076.

GardoneVT
06-15-2015, 04:02 PM
I'm a fairly large individual and I know I wouldn't want to give up carrying a P228 for a 1076.
3rd Gen full size S&Ws are NOT small/medium hand friendly. Considering my mom cant reach the single action trigger of a 4006 I'm not surprised the 1076's adoption triggered a lawsuit.

LSP972
06-15-2015, 06:27 PM
3rd Gen full size S&Ws are NOT small/medium hand friendly.

Define "full size". If you are referring to the large caliber (10mm/.45ACP) pistols, then okay.

But the 3rd Gen 9mm service pistols, as embodied in the 5904-5906 series, were designed expressly to be user-friendly to medium and small hands… specifically, smaller-statured men, and crack troops. I was told (and the guy telling me was definitely in a position to know, and had no reason to blow smoke; we had already chosen the Sig) that S&W spent close to a million dollars (much of that in ergonomic studies) developing the new snap-on grip set and shape of the metal grip frame on the four-digit pistols, with the express purpose of shortening the trigger reach as much as possible.

I'll put it this way… SIGs are designed for large-handed men, and the only thing that kept me from going with a 5906 when we began transition was SIG providing P226 short triggers at the eleventh hour.

Dunno about the .40 caliber guns; those began appearing in 1990, and IIRC they were the same external dimensions as the Euro-Pellet versions. But I could be wrong about that. The local city PD issued 4046s for some years, but we only dealt with the nines. FWIW, the local sheriff's office issued 1076s for quite a few years. Listening to those deputies gripe, it sucked as a uniform carry piece too...;)

Your mom must have extraordinarily short fingers.

.

DMF13
06-15-2015, 11:41 PM
I'll put it this way… SIGs are designed for large-handed men, and the only thing that kept me from going with a 5906 when we began transition was SIG providing P226 short triggers at the eleventh hour.Funny you should mention that, as I had the opposite problem. My first agency had issued SIGs with short triggers. They had them to accommodate those with small hands, and policy would not allow us to switch them to the standard trigger. The only thing that made that gun fit my freakishly long fingers was swapping out the stock skinny plastic grips with the huge Hogue finger groove grips. Things were much better at my next job where again it was an issued SIG, but I had the standard trigger AND the Hogue grips.

LSP972
06-16-2015, 06:42 AM
Did you experience the dreaded "trigger bar spring drag"? Those early Goodyears had no plastic plate/liners on the interior side, and sometimes the exposed SIG trigger bar spring would drag on the rubber and be impeded. Hogue was made aware of the issue, and began molding hard plastic plates in the proper location so the spring rode against that instead of rubber.

One wonders why "they" would not allow you to fit a standard trigger to your pistol? The absolute stupidity displayed by some FTU heads, who, refusing to be confused with facts, made it harder than necessary on their people, has always amazed me.

That tour of amazement began when I was in the academy in 1978 (revolvers, of course), and I was not allowed to use speedloaders in the firearms training portion. I was welcome to carry them upon graduation, though. True story.

.

Chuck Haggard
06-16-2015, 07:04 AM
We had some serious issues with issuing the 3rd gen S&Ws, specifically the 5906, and the small handed folks/IBOs. The problem was DA trigger reach, and being able to run the safety.

The Christine Hansen thing was well before the 10mms showed up. It also resulted in the FBI having short stocked 870s available for training and use by the agents.


Ref the 1076, S&W factory armorer dudes of that time tell me one issue with the gun was FBI armorers doing "trigger jobs" on the guns and messing things up, then asking S&W why the guns were unreliable.

BobM
06-16-2015, 07:21 AM
We had some serious issues with issuing the 3rd gen S&Ws, specifically the 5906, and the small handed folks/IBOs. The problem was DA trigger reach, and being able to run the safety.




.

We issued a 3906 and later 3913s to people that needed them.

Chuck Haggard
06-16-2015, 07:36 AM
We issued a 3906 and later 3913s to people that needed them.

We had people buying their own, which was authorized, and worked well until S&W quit making those guns.

DMF13
06-16-2015, 08:35 AM
Did you experience the dreaded "trigger bar spring drag"? Those early Goodyears had no plastic plate/liners on the interior side, and sometimes the exposed SIG trigger bar spring would drag on the rubber and be impeded. Hogue was made aware of the issue, and began molding hard plastic plates in the proper location so the spring rode against that instead of rubber.No, I didn't start in LE until 2003, and that problem with the Hogue grips had already been identified and addressed.
One wonders why "they" would not allow you to fit a standard trigger to your pistol? The absolute stupidity displayed by some FTU heads, who, refusing to be confused with facts, made it harder than necessary on their people, has always amazed me.They were equipping almost 2000 agents, and the decision was made that the only change that could be made to the gun was the grips, to keep everything standardized and avoid having people tempted to "customize" their guns in an unsafe manner. However, the policy wording was vague enough that some supervisors and some FIs would try to prevent even changing the grips. Frankly, some of our "armorers" and FIs couldn't be trusted to make that simple change. I can remember buying my own replacement springs as the armorer/FI at my first office could not understand the need to swap out recoil springs after firing several thousand rounds. Rather than do preventative maintenance his attitude was, "I'll fix it when it breaks."
That tour of amazement began when I was in the academy in 1978 (revolvers, of course), and I was not allowed to use speedloaders in the firearms training portion. I was welcome to carry them upon graduation, though. True story.At that same first job we had a similar policy regarding holsters. At the Academy we had to use a horrible retention holster, I can't remember the brand, on our tactical gear, and a equally horrible leather holster for concealed carry training. As soon as I got my badge and walked off the FLETC property I was allowed to use just about any holster I wanted, but during training (both the FLETC run training and the agency specific training) I had to use the issued crap. Long before I left FLETC I had already ordered new gear, and started practicing with it using our "red guns" that we could have after hours.

Beat Trash
06-16-2015, 09:05 AM
We initially issues 3906's as needed. This was later changed to issuing the flat grip vs. the humped stock grip.

We went from the 5906's/6906's to the DAO 5946's/6946's. The DAO guns worked slightly better for smaller handed people, but just slightly. The first three pre-production M&P9's were sent to us for T&E guns (Along with ND Agreements). We've been an M&P9 agency ever since. The M&P9 was the first "One size fits all" issued gun in my opinion.

We also had a huge issue with the 9mm extractors. They were too small, and broke easily, but that's another topic.

LSP972
06-16-2015, 10:27 AM
Ref the 1076, S&W factory armorer dudes of that time tell me one issue with the gun was FBI armorers doing "trigger jobs" on the guns and messing things up, then asking S&W why the guns were unreliable.

Yeah, but there was more to that story. Disclaimer: I am by no means a champion of the fabled FBOnes, but those Gun Vault armorers weren't entirely at fault here.

The main problem was that the FBI had insisted on a SIG-like decocking lever on the 1076, and S&W did a half-assed job of modifying the frame to include that. A couple of the parts were quite fragile, and one particular one (don't remember exactly which one, now), once bent, rendered the gun a sometimes-shooter. Some of those "trigger jobs" were actually the result of the Gun Vault armorers trying to restore operation (shooting the gun would bend that afore-mentioned part). This issue was eventually identified, and fixed with a beefier part. This "fix" was indicated on each weapon by two small punch marks on the frame. You will also find examples of the uncommon 5926 9mm pistol, which was a modified 5906 with this SIG-like decocking lever, so marked. S&W made some non-FBI pistols with this system (the 5926 is the only one I've handled, but there were others, in other calibers), but the general weakness and unreliability of that system didn't last long.

But there is yet more to the story. The above described issue involved the ignition train- getting the trigger pull up to the firing pin. That wasn't the only reliability issue these guns had; there were also enough failures to feed/extract/eject going on to cause alarm. It got so bad, over half of the issued 1076s were recalled to the Gun Vault, where a team of factory armorers were TDY there to figure out what the hell was going on. I never heard what the cause of all that was, but they managed to "fix" most of them... although, once back out in the field, these issues re-surfaced with some agents. It doesn't take an analytical genius to figure out that the problems were a combination of the guns and some users, but after a year or so of this, the straw that supposedly broke the camel's back was when five of the initial contract batch continued to show the feeding/extraction/ejection issues, and the TDY S&W factory armorers finally threw up their hands and announced that they didn't have a clue. That's when FBOne management said okay, time to ditch these things.

Keep in mind that is all hearsay... but pretty well-sourced hearsay.:D

FWIW the sheriff's office here issued 1076s for more than a few years, and they never had any of the issues noted above; that I heard of anyway. They ditched the gun becuase the deputies were complaining it was too heavy to tote around all day, and many of them could not make it through a complete qual course before the recoil began affecting their scores... and that was with the watered-down Winchester Q4242 cartridge. We have several hundred rounds of that stuff here, and it is actually quite pleasant to shoot in a steel-frame 10mm pistol, IMO.

So... to me, this whole debacle is yet another shining example of worker bees doing their best to implement the edict of a clueless leader, and it blowing up in their faces. You see, the entire 10mm-as-a-duty-gun concept was born out of the Miami Massacre. The director at the time was HIGHLY pissed at the outcome of that epic battle, because his FTU peolple had just convinced him that the 9mm was a viable replacement for the .357 revolver, and here he had two dead agents and five severely wounded ones... and his guys got off the first rounds. Despite the FTU guys trying to 'splain the vagaries of wound ballistics to him, somebody else put the 10mm bug in his ear, and made the announcement at an IACP convention that, due to the recent failure of the 9mm cartridge, the ever-on-the-bleeding edge-FBI was going to the TEN millimeter; because, more power.

Now the FTU guys were in a panic, because they KNEW the 10mm full-patch round was far too much for most folks to handle. But, So Spake The Director, and now it was holy writ. So the scramble began.

And that bit of hearsay, sports fans, came from someone who lived that cluster-fuck.;)

Hambo
06-16-2015, 12:02 PM
That's pretty much the way I heard it, LSP972. I remember meeting an FBI dude in the 10mm era. Although they probably had other off duty options, he carried his big 10 off body.

In S&W trivia there was a civilian 4576? with the SIG style decocker. I saw one and only one in a gun shop after the feds ditched the 1076. This was when S&W was on the mix-and-match parts to make a new model kick. It's the only SIG & Wesson decocker I ever saw in person and it looked flimsy as hell.

LSP972
06-16-2015, 12:49 PM
It was flimsy. And that was a 5926, not 5929, my mistake. Several of our guys bought them. They were "Buy American at any cost" types, and while they recognized the superiority of the SIG system they couldn't bring themselves to buy a "furriner pistol".

They soon learned the error of their ways. Of course, when we finally got around to issuing that furriner pistol, they took it gladly...:rolleyes:

.

HCM
06-16-2015, 01:20 PM
3rd Gen full size S&Ws are NOT small/medium hand friendly. Considering my mom cant reach the single action trigger of a 4006 I'm not surprised the 1076's adoption triggered a lawsuit.

It didn't. As noted earlier, lawsuit pre dated the 1076.

We had the same issues with small handed people when my agency went from revolvers and personally owned autos to everyone shall carry the Beretta 96D Brigadier.

Mas
06-19-2015, 09:05 PM
The Hansen case was a class action suit involving multiple female agents, some 35 years ago, with K-frame round butt S&W revolvers and .38 +P ammo. I'm not aware of a class action suit involving the 1076. There was an individual lawsuit on the matter, however, Judy Cangealose v. FBI et al . The issues were much the same, trigger reach being too long etc., but malfunctions with the 1076 were also an issue. She had great difficulty working the slide with hammer down, and was not able to cock it to relieve mainspring pressure, which would have allowed her to rack the slide. (The FBI 1076 had a spurless hammer.) In testing, she was able to qualify with other guns she would have been allowed to carry on duty under FBI rules of the period, including the S&W 3913 that then-Director Louis Freeh was said to carry himself, but she was not allowed to do so in training. The Government settled with her at the 11th hour before the case went to trial.

Jeep
06-20-2015, 03:19 PM
They were "Buy American at any cost" types, and while they recognized the superiority of the SIG system they couldn't bring themselves to buy a "furriner pistol".

They soon learned the error of their ways. Of course, when we finally got around to issuing that furriner pistol, they took it gladly.



Ah yes. They reminds me of . . . me. For years I wouldn't but a car or gun that wasn't American. If it wasn't an S&W or a Colt I didn't want it, and I certainly didn't want Euro-pellets. It was either .357 or .45 auto. Then, years after everyone else, I finally bought a Glock (whose trigger I previously had thought, with some justification, seemed like the trigger of a caulking gun).

10,000 rounds without a single problem got me to start rethinking priorities.

Gadfly
06-20-2015, 04:18 PM
I have heard stories of the FBI lawsuit from FBI types as well as other agencies. Rumor only. I have been told the root of the suit was under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Basically, the Gov has to make "reasonable accommodations" for those with special needs. If the gun is too big for a small handed female, a "reasonable accomidation" must be made to get them a gun that they can use. Don't know if that part is true, but it sounded plausible.

This is an interesting thread.

After owning and ditching a 10mm Delta Gold Cup, I always wanted to try a full size 1006 to see how it would handle.

LSP972
06-20-2015, 05:00 PM
I always wanted to try a full size 1006 to see how it would handle.

Ditto me and the Glock 20. Two things have stopped me; the fact that the big-frame Glocks are simply too large for me to handle properly (too long of a trigger reach), and gearing up to reload yet another caliber isn't the most appealing thing on my to-do list.

But the cartridge itself is rather intriguing, so I may do it yet, just because.

I was never very interested in the big frame S&Ws, due to the weight. But they say the 1006 is one of the best of the breed, and tames the 10mm round rather handily.

I have shot some full-power Norma 10mm ammo from a Bren Ten (another WAY too-large piece for me), and it was pretty darn intimidating. They say the G20 can take that all day, but what about the shooter??? I suspect I'd just get a .40 S&W barrel to practice with…;)

.

LSP552
06-20-2015, 06:28 PM
Ditto me and the Glock 20. Two things have stopped me; the fact that the big-frame Glocks are simply too large for me to handle properly (too long of a trigger reach), and gearing up to reload yet another caliber isn't the most appealing thing on my to-do list.

But the cartridge itself is rather intriguing, so I may do it yet, just because.

I was never very interested in the big frame S&Ws, due to the weight. But they say the 1006 is one of the best of the breed, and tames the 10mm round rather handily.

I have shot some full-power Norma 10mm ammo from a Bren Ten (another WAY too-large piece for me), and it was pretty darn intimidating. They say the G20 can take that all day, but what about the shooter??? I suspect I'd just get a .40 S&W barrel to practice with…;)

.

I will own a G20 before my next Alaska trip. I've decided to stop carrying the Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk. You can be my 10mm reload crash test dummy......

LSP972
06-20-2015, 09:36 PM
I will own a G20 before my next Alaska trip. I've decided to stop carrying the Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk. You can be my 10mm reload crash test dummy......

Well, seeing as I did the leg work on the RDS-equipped G19s, and am now doing same on the G43… YOUR turn to pull the wagon…;)

.

abu fitna
06-23-2015, 05:02 PM
Ref the original lawsuits against S&W 3rd gen; I recall a bit of drama at the time.

One of the issues in question throughout much of the 90's was grip strength for newer candidates - females (and often mentioned smaller males, but the reality of biomechanics were such that this was a much lower percentage problem) as applicant pools changed over time. The objective standards for selection in LE and other armed roles required better documentation that was available in most cases, and several organizations were on the wrong side of litigation as a result.

The trigger reach / trigger pull debate was front and center in all of this. Whether it needed to be or not, trigger pull became a proxy for grip strength in a lot of places. A common "objective" test added to selection at the time (particularly in northeastern LE, but copied elsewhere) was to require n number of trigger pulls in DAO, where n exceeded typical duty load - regardless of the typical mode of operation for DA/SA weapons. Whatever one thought of the rationale, it was an objective standard - on paper. The trick came when certain departments chose not to test simply with a DAO Smith, but rather simply modified the traditional DA action to work only as DA (to ensure no possible "cheating" with the lower weight pull). These were terrible triggers as a result - easily twice as heavy as duty (and in an era where a 14 pound first shot DA was considered a "good" trigger for liability reasons).

Never thought much of all of this nonsense to game the overlawyered. I distinctly disliked the reinforcement of terrible, unusable trigger weights that these standards crept into later procurement and associated type evaluations - especially when coupled with prohibition on carrying anything other than issued items. But legal cases are not decided in a vacuum, and bad decisions get made when bad management tries to define standards around litigation.

SLG
06-23-2015, 05:15 PM
The Hansen case was a class action suit involving multiple female agents, some 35 years ago, with K-frame round butt S&W revolvers and .38 +P ammo. I'm not aware of a class action suit involving the 1076. There was an individual lawsuit on the matter, however, Judy Cangealose v. FBI et al . The issues were much the same, trigger reach being too long etc., but malfunctions with the 1076 were also an issue. She had great difficulty working the slide with hammer down, and was not able to cock it to relieve mainspring pressure, which would have allowed her to rack the slide. (The FBI 1076 had a spurless hammer.) In testing, she was able to qualify with other guns she would have been allowed to carry on duty under FBI rules of the period, including the S&W 3913 that then-Director Louis Freeh was said to carry himself, but she was not allowed to do so in training. The Government settled with her at the 11th hour before the case went to trial.

Just saw this. Mas is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (and many others), and I'm glad to see him visiting. Welcome.

LSP972
06-23-2015, 07:15 PM
The trick came when certain departments chose not to test simply with a DAO Smith, but rather simply modified the traditional DA action to work only as DA (to ensure no possible "cheating" with the lower weight pull). These were terrible triggers as a result - easily twice as heavy as duty (and in an era where a 14 pound first shot DA was considered a "good" trigger for liability reasons).



In Louisiana, the "standard" for this has always been a stock, un-modified S&W DA K frame revolver. The candidate grips the piece, sticks it though a six inch diameter hole cut into a piece of plywood (I have no idea where the six inch requirement for the hole came from). To pass the test, the candidate must pull the trigger through the full DA stroke 12 times, in rapid succession, without the revolver touching the sides of the hole. The index finger must be used to pull the trigger, one handed only.

The local sheriff's office was administering this test to applicants as recently as five years ago; dunno if they still do it. The State Police quit doing it before I became FTU supervisor; for the same reasons we lost the 50 yard line as a mandatory qual item just before I took over.

Three guesses as to what the reasons were…


.

Shawn Dodson
06-26-2015, 12:16 PM
"The FBI'S 10mm Pistol"; SSA John C. Hall, Unit Chief, Firearms Training Unit; FBI Academy, Quantico, VA; November 1989 -- https://web.archive.org/web/20130511024501/http://www.firearmstactical.com/fbi_10mm_pistol_hall.htm

"FBI 10mm Notes"; SSA Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit; FBI Academy, Quantico, VA -- https://web.archive.org/web/20130330150516/http://firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Note that the 10mm 180gr subsonic load was developed (December 1988) and selected (February 1989) prior to contract award for the 10mm pistol (S&W 1076, January 1990).

pat701
07-05-2015, 08:14 AM
The females get paid the same money, but can't do the work. Then they get weekends and holidays off!

jnc36rcpd
07-05-2015, 02:28 PM
pat701, is this in the FBI where females can't do the work and get weekends and holidays off? I cound not find mention of this in the documents posted by SSA Hall and SSA Patrick. The female SA's I have encountered all seemed pretty competent and seemed to have the same schedule as male Agents.

BehindBlueI's
07-05-2015, 02:41 PM
What's the FBI doing that females can't do? Like most investigative slots, if you can run a computer, telephone, fax, and coffee maker and know how to get information out of people in interview/interrogation that's 95% of your day.*

*Yeah, I know, HRT and whatnot. That's not what most of them do. Our liason FBI guy does the same thing I do, only with a smaller badge and bigger car.

runcible
07-05-2015, 07:08 PM
I'm also curious, pat701 - could you tell us more about this, and how you came to know that, please?

runcible
05-05-2019, 06:56 PM
It was part of a broader civil rights suit, Hansen v. Webster:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/hansen_v_webster.pdf

The gun stuff was actually part of a federal civil service hearing rather then an actual lawsuit. I believe it was in the early 1980's and involved revolvers, long before the 1076.

With that link no longer being in service and not having been able to find an archived nor cached copy of the pdf; does anyone have a downloaded copy that they'd be able to share or rehost?

DocGKR
05-05-2019, 07:53 PM
At various times I have carried a 4566, 4006, and 5906 without issues--all are about the same size and weight of the 1076....

Erick Gelhaus
05-05-2019, 08:50 PM
With that link no longer being in service and not having been able to find an archived nor cached copy of the pdf; does anyone have a downloaded copy that they'd be able to share or rehost?

I believe I have a copy back home; however, I’m on the road for another day or so. I’ll try to get you a copy then.

runcible
05-05-2019, 09:22 PM
Erick,

Much appreciated - I'd be grateful for that, and no rush!

Jeff22
05-13-2019, 02:30 AM
"Like most investigative slots, if you can run a computer, telephone, fax, and coffee maker and know how to get information out of people in interview/interrogation that's 95% of your day."

I gotta somehow bring that thought to the attention of our detective bureau . . . .

And the whole issue of gun size -- why was this even a thing? It's quite obvious that people have different hand sizes, and that people with small hands might not be able to shoot big guns as easily. The width of the grip and the reach from the backstrap to the face of the trigger is critical to fitting the gun to the shooter's hands.

A guy I used to work with had worked for a nearby Sheriff's Office in the 1970s and the issue gun was a S&W 28. Mac is a short Irishman with small hands. They wouldn't let him change the grips on his N frame because "liability" . . .

I started teaching firearms in the local regional police academy in 1988. Our average class size was right about two dozen, and we would always have at least two students (usually females but not always) who had small hands and who struggled with shooting as a result. If they had a revolver, our solution was always to get them a set of the Pachmayr "Professional" grips with the exposed backstrap. That reduced the reach to the trigger enough for most people. (Almost all our revolver shooters came through with some variety of S&W K frame revolver)

I started teaching the Academy right as local agencies were beginning to transition to the auto pistol. My current agency switched from S&W 66s to Sig 226s. And then hired a couple of females with small hands. The department issued handguns, and I convinced the Chief to issue Sig 225s to anybody who had small hands. That worked reasonably well.

The school bought a couple of S&W 3906s and a 3913 to accommodate students with small hands. Those were shot until frame failure. Then they acquired a bunch of Glock 17s to issue to pre-service candidates who were not yet on a department and did not have issued or specified weapons yet. I convinced them to send two of the guns off to Arizona Response Systems to get grip reductions done. I haven't taught there for about five years so I'm not sure if they still have those guns or not.