McKinney, TX Pool Party Response

[GRV]

To prevent this from derailing other thread(s), and since I think it'd be useful to get LEO input regarding this latest media spotlight event.

Here's the version of the video I saw today, if someone has a better one feel free to post it and I can edit this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpWP8aMcOo8

[BaiHu]

From a civilian but martial arts background I see it this way:

1. You're called to handle a disturbance and your job is to stop it and some kids scatter. You have two choices: find out why they're running or give up. The latter is the police society is encouraging.

2. The fact that they are teens means nothing.

3. As a civilian, if you're in the middle of strangers and they're not complying/respecting your space, how would you handle it? How would you handle it if you were open carrying? Now rewind those kids darting around the cop and put yourself in his shoes.

4. As corny as it sounds, "They Are The Law" and if you don't want to be man handled, maced, tased, shot and/or cuffed, then STFU and comply. If you're innocent, then you'll move along in due time. If you're a witness, the same. If you're a problem kid or the cause of said problem, then you typically run. It's what we did as kids when we hypothetically did something stupid like have a high school rival fight of over 100 kids on a golf course.

The only reason why this guy is ejected is because his higher ups have no back bone and Barry, Holder/Lynch have given the cops no quarter and the destroyers of a peaceful society every option on and off the table.

If you haven't run a FoF scenario, then I suggest you take one and ask them to put you on a 3-5 on 1 unknown situation and see for yourself.

We're losing our grip on reality in this country and world and these fantasy MMQBing of real events is a large part of the problem. Oh, and that every one's opinion counts.

[voodoo_man]

The officer in question was actively attempting to stop persons of interest in reference to the reason the officers were dispatched there to begin with.

That was why he was doing what he was doing, the girl was not allowing him to do it properly, by disregarding his lawful commands.

Without knowing exactly what was said/written in the CAD and put over police radio in reference to this call it is difficult to say exactly what the proper course of action may be.

The question is, however, would just allowing everyone to disperse from the location be a good option?

[ssb]

The only reason why this guy is ejected is because his higher ups have no back bone and Barry, Holder/Lynch have given the cops no quarter and the destroyers of a peaceful society every option on and off the table.

I agree with the overall point of your post. However, especially in relation to his fellow officers, I think this guy lost his shit. The other guys there seemed to act with complete professionalism. He approached the situation... differently. I think that loss of control played a bigger part in him losing his job than anything else. Frankly, I wouldn't want this guy policing me.

[BaiHu]

At that point, he was alone while his buddies were giving chase. He holstered even before his buddies came back. Was he the "mall ninja" of the group? Maybe, but I didn't see the whole video nor was I there, so I'm not looking to burn him down.

[ssb]

At that point, he was alone while his buddies were giving chase. He holstered even before his buddies came back. Was he the "mall ninja" of the group? Maybe, but I didn't see the whole video nor was I there, so I'm not looking to burn him down.

Actually, I'm not concerned with him drawing of his gun at all. I think that was justified in doing so given the dude in the blue shirt's actions (circling + going for his waistband w/ L hand). He holstered when those two ceased to be a direct problem. He didn't use it as an intimidation tool, as some claim he did.

I'm much more concerned with his overall attitude and conduct throughout the encounter. On the video, he isn't the only one dealing with groups of unruly teenagers alone. The other guys were able to pull it off without losing it. Why not him?

[SouthNarc]

I'm much more concerned with his overall attitude and conduct throughout the encounter. On the video, he isn't the only one dealing with groups of unruly teenagers alone. The other guys were able to pull it off without losing it. Why not him?

Dude looks like a fear biter to me.

[Hambo]

I don't know what went out on the radio/MDTs. The case was simple trespass, but it could have gone out as a crowd/disturbance.

It looks like the officer overreacted, was distracted, etc, but I read his attorney's statement about the rest of his shift. Start your day with a suicide, brain matter, and distraught family, and it fucks up everything after that. Sometimes it hits you harder than others, but there is always an effect. IME LE management doesn't even think about that. The culture is largely "suck it up and drive on" and management is more concerned about cars on the road and potential overtime than an officer's mental health.

Was this stuff a factor in the officer's response? I don't know, but I'd bet it didn't help.

[Paul]

The officer in the video is clearly having a bad day, whether that his typical MO or a one time event, I don't know. He's not helping anyone by being there.

His fellow officers should have stepped up at some point and intervened. I understand that there's a lot going, but some times dealing with pissed off coworker is the hand that gets dealt. If they had found their balls and tried to deal with the officer at the scene, they most likely wouldn't be getting their butts kicked in the media now.

Having had a couple blow ups (and the associated discipline and days off) in times before everyone had a camera, there comes a point when you just have to check yourself out of work. Whether it's a call that gotten under your skin or you just showed up to work with full blown PMS, sometimes you just need to go home. No one is so special that the police world will stop without them. More than a few good police careers have gone down the toilet because an officer couldn't figure our he didn't need to be at work.

According to what I've read in some other places, this officer had started off the shift working two legit suicide calls and then went to the party. Seeing how the McKinney police chief has handled this, I'm not surprised that there is a total lack of leadership in the field. It's not that hard to keep track of what calls troops are working in the field, take a couple minutes to check on them and make sure they're okay.

[Chance]

Here's a little more context on what happened. Evidently, a fight had started between guests and a person who was not invited to the party. A resident is saying some of the teens involved were threatening security guards. When the officers arrived, upwards of 70 people left the party without incident.

At least one of the teens was arrested for interfering with an investigation - I'm not sure which, but I'm guessing it was the guy in the blue shirt who kept running around, and reaching for his waistband. You can see him at the end of the video handcuffed on the ground.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W07w4rLtHs

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/8567368-How-cops-can-use-Texas-pool-party-video-to-teach-citizens-about-force/?utm_source=8566726&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Exclusives1LeftTitle&utm_campaign=P1Member&nlid=8566726

For analysis. I wonder if the fall and roll contributed to your analysis of the what's going in - in the sense of increasing your feeling of being hurt, vulnerable, physiologically aroused.

As an editorial aside - society is not doing its job with educating young people on how to act to reasonable authority. Saw it myself when I was young. We were where we shouldn't be. Stopped by an officer, one of the group started to quote her rights and the Constitution. I told the big scary Sarge that he was right, we were wrong. If he wanted us to testify against out of control friend that would be fine with me. He said - shut her up and get out of here. We did.

[BaiHu]

Interesting tidbit Hambo. Either way it paints a broader picture.

[BaiHu]

Lot of great feedback for this civilian brain to chew on. Thanks guys.

[Irelander]

It's just sad that there are certain people in our communities that think they do not have to obey authority. I think most of us were taught from a young age that if an officer tells you to do something...you do it...now. I think the officer in question was somewhat over the line, but if after telling people countless times to get out of there or sit on the ground and they didn't do then my opinion is that they got what they deserved. I'm sure the rest of that community is glad the police were there to enforce law and order.

[Gadfly]

I saw...
Verbal commands for the girl to leave. Multiple times. Then an exchange of more words we don't hear.

He grabs her and tells her to get on the ground that she is under arrest. She pulls back. He arm bars her and head controls her to the ground. He then gets into the old style catcher's position to cuff her.

So, for use of force I saw Officer Presence (ignored), Verbal commands (ignored, passive resistance), soft control techniques (she pulls away, active resistance), soft techniques of an arm bar (she resists), soft techniques of head control push to the ground...

What I did not see? I did not see a punch, or kick, or OC, or tase, or any "assault"....

The only thing I would say he did wrong is to place his knees across her neck and spine. We stopped teaching that years ago after a guy had his neck snapped when a large officer put his weight on the neck. we now place knees across shoulder blades, parallel to the spine...

I get it, it looks bad on TV. Police being rude looks bad on TV. This guy yelling looks bad on TV. But, if we go by the book, I saw force used in direct relation to the resistance offered.

In the end, every single big police public outcry as of late has stemmed from the suspects inability to follow a simple lawful command. In this case, that command appears to be simply "leave my crime scene", you don't have to go home, but don't stay here. Close to 100 other party goers, mostly minorities, were simply told to disperse and leave, and those that did were not touched.

Again, I get it, it looks bad on TV. A lot of police work looks bad on TV.

But we get to the basic societal question of, suspect is given a lawful command, suspect refuses... then what. I hate to say, but the crowd looks at that first person who interacts with the police and they wait. The first guy to tell the officers to "kitten off". The first one to throw a bottle. The first one to jump on a car hood... The crowd watches to see what happens. Once the police ignore those interactions, the crowd gets bolder and more problems start.

I am not saying this girl was going to start a riot. But I do understand that large crowds change the dynamic.

Give the guy some sensitivity training, and maybe a few days on the beach. But the public lynching he got was way out of proportion to the incident. The press were treating him like the SC officer who shot the suspect in the back.

[TGS]

I saw...
Verbal commands for the girl to leave. Multiple times. Then an exchange of more words we don't hear.

He grabs her and tells her to get on the ground that she is under arrest. She pulls back. He arm bars her and head controls her to the ground. He then gets into the old style catcher's position to cuff her.

So, for use of force I saw Officer Presence (ignored), Verbal commands (ignored, passive resistance), soft control techniques (she pulls away, active resistance), soft techniques of an arm bar (she resists), soft techniques of head control push to the ground...

What I did not see? I did not see a punch, or kick, or OC, or tase, or any "assault"....

The only thing I would say he did wrong is to place his knees across her neck and spine. We stopped teaching that years ago after a guy had his neck snapped when a large officer put his weight on the neck. we now place knees across shoulder blades, parallel to the spine...

I get it, it looks bad on TV. Police being rude looks bad on TV. This guy yelling looks bad on TV. But, if we go by the book, I saw force used in direct relation to the resistance offered.

In the end, every single big police public outcry as of late has stemmed from the suspects inability to follow a simple lawful command. In this case, that command appears to be simply "leave my crime scene", you don't have to go home, but don't stay here. Close to 100 other party goers, mostly minorities, were simply told to disperse and leave, and those that did were not touched.

Again, I get it, it looks bad on TV. A lot of police work looks bad on TV.

But we get to the basic societal question of, suspect is given a lawful command, suspect refuses... then what. I hate to say, but the crowd looks at that first person who interacts with the police and they wait. The first guy to tell the officers to "kitten off". The first one to throw a bottle. The first one to jump on a car hood... The crowd watches to see what happens. Once the police ignore those interactions, the crowd gets bolder and more problems start.

I am not saying this girl was going to start a riot. But I do understand that large crowds change the dynamic.

Give the guy some sensitivity training, and maybe a few days on the beach. But the public lynching he got was way out of proportion to the incident. The press were treating him like the SC officer who shot the suspect in the back.

Outstanding post, sir.

[KevinB]

+1 Gadfly

[RoyGBiv]

+1 Gadfly

+3 (if I'm counting correctly) :p

[BaiHu]

+1 and an extra +1 for covering all the recent blather. Thanks Gadfly.

ETA: I guess it's up to +4. RoyGBiv beat me to it.

[Gadfly]

Wow. I said the same thing over on facebook and people broke out the pitchforks and torches. I was chastised as a jack booted thug...

Thanks for the support.

[BaiHu]

Wow. I said the same thing over on facebook and people broke out the pitchforks and torches. I was chastised as a jack booted thug...

Thanks for the support.
We thought it was assumed with the + signs. They're as close as we could get to pitch forks on such short notice [emoji41]

[Bigguy]

Wow. I said the same thing over on facebook and people broke out the pitchforks and torches. I was chastised as a jack booted thug...

Thanks for the support.

If I can find you on the book of faces, I'll share on my time line.

[DocGKR]

Gadfly--well done. FWIW, that is exactly what I saw when watching the video.

[NickA]

+ however many. Great post Gadfly.
If my parents had seen me acting that way with a cop, getting thrown on the ground would be the least of my problems. Actually I would have caught hell for being that disrespectful to anyone. Truly sad that kids think this crap is OK.

[Gadfly]

Truly sad that kids think this crap is OK.

But this crap is OK. The media just taught those kids (and all kids) that if they don't feel like obeying a lawful command from an officer, they don't have to. Those kids learned that they can resist and cuss and fight and throw bottles, and in the end the officer will pay the price. Not them.

Police Across the country were taught that even if you follow the department approved "use of force continuum", you will be hung out to dry by your leaders.

A lesson was taught. And society will suffer for it.

[NickA]

A lesson was taught. And society will suffer for it.

Unfortunately you're 100% correct.

[ford.304]

@Gadfly

Serious question -- if we are looking at this situation not to judge the guilt of the officer involved (ie, was he legally or procedurally *allowed* to do what he did), but to judge what an officer *should* do in the situation -- and understanding the limitations inherent in Monday-morning quarterbacking -- do you think it is how he should have handled the unruly and disrespectful teenager, or how officers should be trained to handle situations like this?

Because I think your legal analysis is entirely correct and the guy is getting lynched over it, but I'd still be *happier* if in this situation he didn't go hand to hand with a smart-mouthed teenager who, while not acting appropriately, also didn't read as a threat.

[Smash]

More fallout over this:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/06/11/did-nothing-wrong-florida-principal-fired-after-defending-texas-cop.html


A Florida high school principal, who defended the Texas police officer at the center of that infamous pool melee, has become the latest victim of radical speech police hell-bent on trying to silence public discourse.

Alberto Iber lost his job as the principal at North Miami Senior High School after he wrote a comment about the McKinney, Texas incident on the Miami Herald’s website.


“He did nothing wrong,” Iber wrote. “He was afraid for his life. I commend him for his actions.”

Three sentences. Sixteen words. Sixty-two characters.

Miami-Dade County Public Schools released a statement on June 10 announcing that Mr. Iber had been removed from his position at the high school and reassigned to an administrative position.

[SecondsCount]

Another +1 for Gadfly.

The issue I see is that law enforcement has lost respect. Mostly because of their own actions but also because society as a whole has lost respect for each other.

The smartphone has just brought a lot of this to light and eventually it will die down when people want to hear about something else.

[TSH]

The smartphone has just brought a lot of this to light and eventually it will die down when people want to hear about something else.

Went to hear Lt. Col. Grossman speak a few months ago. He spent some time talking about the pervasive anti-cop attitude around right now. He concluded by saying everyone will get over it after the next school shooting or terrorist attack. The police will stop the killer, rescue people, do all the things they do that people love to conveniently forget cops do, and all of the sudden, everyone will love cops again.

It's unfortunate that's what it takes.

[Gadfly]

@Gadfly

Serious question -- if we are looking at this situation not to judge the guilt of the officer involved (ie, was he legally or procedurally *allowed* to do what he did), but to judge what an officer *should* do in the situation -- and understanding the limitations inherent in Monday-morning quarterbacking -- do you think it is how he should have handled the unruly and disrespectful teenager, or how officers should be trained to handle situations like this?

Because I think your legal analysis is entirely correct and the guy is getting lynched over it, but I'd still be *happier* if in this situation he didn't go hand to hand with a smart-mouthed teenager who, while not acting appropriately, also didn't read as a threat.

I don't know if I would have handled it that way. But I was not there. And I don't know what had been going on for the 20min before the film started. (And I find it impossible to belive that with 100+ people there us only one video period... Has to be more)

I have tried to talk people into cuffs more often than not. It usually works, but not always. I was taught over the years, don't make threats you don't intend to carry out. If you say "leave...leave now....leave now or I am arresting you for tresspaas and interfering with my crime scene." Well, you just committed yourself. I was also taught, once you get on scene, it's your scene. You are in charge, not the suspects. You control the proceedings. You do not let the suspect control the encounter.

Now obviously this is dependent on the totality of circumstances. They type of crime, number of subjects, etc.

We don't know what happened as the first officer arrived. But we know he called back up. Two more arrived, so three total. They called again for back up. Dispatch sent 11 or 13 officers depending on the news site. I simply refuse to belive that that many officers were dispatched for simple loud noise. I have heard water bottles and such were thrown at officers, and that is what spurred this. But I don't think we will know the truth for some time. And the media will not report anything favorable to the officer.

So, how to train for it? Every situation is different. And every situation is fluid. So there can never be a standard "this is THE way to respond" answer. The courts have ruled the response must be "reasonable" given facts available to the officer at the time. The officer's goal for the large part seems to have been to get the crowd to disperse. They did detain several black males. But none of them were tackled, hit, arm barred, etc. which leads me to think they complied with commands to sit.

I don't know if I would have arrested the girl. But if I decided to arrest her, and she pulled away, I would deem the force you saw as very reasonable.

This is scary stuff. I have been involved in the arrests of well over 1000... The majority had no force used. Some had force used. Any one of those could have been picked apart like this incident. Makes cops reluctant to get out and engage.

[ford.304]

More fallout over this:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/06/11/did-nothing-wrong-florida-principal-fired-after-defending-texas-cop.html

Damn.

People are so damn quick to forget that what goes around comes around when it comes to making lynching a norm :P

[ford.304]

This is scary stuff.

Serious thanks.

And yeah, my first reaction when I saw that was "well that looks bad, but those cops sure as hell didn't come hauling ass just to break up a pool party."

[Gadfly]

The Austin Texas Police Chief (Acevedo), gave a statement to the press about a viral video affecting his officers. Officers arresting drunks on 6th Street (a Texas version of Bourbon Street) snatched a phone and pepper sprayed a person in the crowd. This incident seems more worth looking into than the pool party. But the Chief has signaled to the press that he is backing his officers. That is the way to inspire confidence.

---------

http://www.kvue.com/story/news/local/2015/06/10/apd-chief-acevedo-comments-on-viral-sixth-street-video/71037236/

Austin police are investigating, and Acevedo expressed his frustration with people interfering with police.

"In the heat of the moment when officers are outnumbered hundreds to one and you charge that officer and you're enclosing on them don't be surprised when something bad happens. Common sense in this country has gone away," Acevedo said.

Officers who patrol Sixth Street say it is a tense environment, and are outnumbered by a crowd that has been drinking.

[L-2]

Great posts Gadfly.

[fixer]

I don't feel sorry for the kids here.

I don't fault the officer for drawing his weapon with an approaching horde of pissed off teenagers. I would have done the same thing. These days flash mobs are deadly.

The officer had a bad day and lost his cool and it more than likely didn't help the situation.

To me the solution isn't to axe the officer, or force him to resign, it is to look at policy--maybe evaluate whether or not if an officer has already worked x number of high stress situations in a period of time, he goes off shift.

Just getting rid of the guy doesn't get rid of the root cause of the problem. In fact it actually hides the issue and essentially protects the leadership here. They can pretend to the public that they are doing something about the situation and avoid criticism themselves.

[RoyGBiv]

The Austin Texas Police Chief (Acevedo), gave a statement to the press about a viral video affecting his officers. Officers arresting drunks on 6th Street (a Texas version of Bourbon Street) snatched a phone and pepper sprayed a person in the crowd. This incident seems more worth looking into than the pool party. But the Chief has signaled to the press that he is backing his officers. That is the way to inspire confidence.

---------

http://www.kvue.com/story/news/local/2015/06/10/apd-chief-acevedo-comments-on-viral-sixth-street-video/71037236/

Austin police are investigating, and Acevedo expressed his frustration with people interfering with police.

"In the heat of the moment when officers are outnumbered hundreds to one and you charge that officer and you're enclosing on them don't be surprised when something bad happens. Common sense in this country has gone away," Acevedo said.

Officers who patrol Sixth Street say it is a tense environment, and are outnumbered by a crowd that has been drinking.
I'm no fan of Acevedo, He's a "blood in the streets" guy when it comes to 2A, but, sounds like he's backing the right team on this one.

[Chuck Haggard]

http://anongalactic.com/the-full-story-of-the-mckinney-texas-pool-mob/

[BaiHu]

Another case of MPGIW. The first to say what is "news" is usually just the first to pass on the "lie" or "narrative" as it's politely referred to these days.

[TAZ]

http://anongalactic.com/the-full-story-of-the-mckinney-texas-pool-mob/

I'm shocked. The MSM saw black and white and made shit up to sell ad space and make brownie points.

Sadly, the side effect of the incessant race baiting and police persecutions is going to hit the useful idiots the hardest as these are the very same people who tend to be involved in situations where Leo help is needed. Rich neighborhoods can afford private security and lawyers out the ass. Not so much for the other end of the spectrum. When departments and/or individual LEO decide that on the whole some of the shit they are swallowing aint worth it the price paid for "jut doing the job" is going to be steep for some.

[Chance]

http://anongalactic.com/the-full-story-of-the-mckinney-texas-pool-mob/

Great link, Chuck. It's worth noting that a handful of residents were giving their side to the media, but some, like the woman in the video I linked to, didn't want their faces on TV. Not that the media would have strived for objectivity either way, but fear of retaliation is evidently a factor in people speaking out.

I'm guessing the big guy in the tan shirt was one of the security guards...? You can see in the video clip how he got between the girl and her swarm of friends, after the officer took her to the ground. Her, and all of her friends, could have used a night in jail, in my opinion.

[farscott]

+ however many. Great post Gadfly.
If my parents had seen me acting that way with a cop, getting thrown on the ground would be the least of my problems. Actually I would have caught hell for being that disrespectful to anyone. Truly sad that kids think this crap is OK.

And that is the big difference. I, too, was more afraid of my parents than the police, my principals, etc. because my parents taught me how to behave, and negative feedback is part of the process. Increasingly today, parents refuse to parent and want to be a friend to their children or are afraid to parent and be charged with child abuse. Children need friends, but they really need parents to show them right and wrong. Kids test limits, and parents are supposed to set and enforce limits.

[WOLFIE]

Police are being seen as the new "bad guys". Think how many people commit crimes for which they should be arrested. Think how many illegal drug users are out there. Think about the people who are not criminals but who dislike police. Think about the parents who do not disipline their children and some parents condone their child's poor decisions.