.380 ACP FMJ vs XTP

[DAVIDF]

DocGKR,

In your post regarding BUG's you recommend using a FMJ load for .380 ACP due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion with JHP loads. Have you tested a .380 XTP load and if so, would you still recommend a FMJ load over the XTP?

The tests I've seen thru bare gel have resulted in 12" to 15" of penetration. Of course, expansion has been minimal. Thru 4LD expansion has been unpredictable and sometimes none, but with deeper penetration. Would the additional penetration of a FMJ and perhaps better barrier penetration still make it a better choice over an XTP load with 12" minimum penetration with .43" or slighter greater expansion?

Thanks,

Dave

[Chuck Haggard]

Not Doc, but in my observation of testing, and seeing quite a few people over the years clipped with .380 ball on the street, I'm OK with a few of the JHPs, the XTP being one of them.

Ref barriers, outside of heavy clothing, .380s have almost zero ability to get through barriers and still create significant wounding. I wouldn't count on anything .380 and below (or even many .38special loadings...) to do anything but open air shots against a bad guy.

[DAVIDF]

Chuck, thanks for the info. I appreciate and value your opinion. Regarding barriers, specifically windshields, does the poor performance include FMJ's?

Also, from your input in the thread about differences in FMJ pistol wounding characteristics you mention FMJ tended not to exit the body. Have you seen or know of any actual shootings involving an XTP load? And, if so, was penetration adequate? Would you recommend a FMJ load over the XTP?

My wife and I have been carrying a Freedom Munitions XTP load in our 42's. It has been extremely accurate, reliable, and economical for an XTP load at only $15.50 per 50 rounds for my latest purchase. I like what I see in gelatin tests. But, if penetration in actual shootings is inadequate then I'd just keep it for range use.

[ST911]

I'll leave terminal ballistics to others but add... Of the available JHPs in .380, the XTP is quite feed friendly and tends to be one of the most reliable even in wonky guns.

[Chuck Haggard]

David, I have not seen a .380 XTP shooting in real life. The FBI spec gel testing I have seen with the Hornady XTP (would be the same from any load using that bullet at a similar velocity) leaves me of the opinion that it's a good choice for use in a .380 as it tends to expand minimally, or not at all, and get decen to more than enough penetration.

.380, even with ball ammo, doesn't get through things like car door or auto glass reliably. Example; One of the last shootings I worked on the job was a dude who was shot through the front door glass of the Dollar general store here, the WWB .380 FMJ got through the plate glass with just enough velocity and mass to leave a nasty welt.

[DAVIDF]

Chuck,

Again, I appreciate your input. I liked the results of the XTP loads I've seen tested in gel due to the same reasons you pointed out.

Skintop911,

Yes, the XTP feeds reliably and the accuracy is exceptional. And, our carry load is cheap enough to train with consistently. We've probably used almost 800 rounds thru the 42's.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Chuck's input is good on this, but if you guys read carefully and pay attention to the objective data on .380 you won't be using it except in very specialized and limited circumstances. It truly SUCKS in actual uses on violent offenders. It does work very well on the good guys though! There are so many decent compact platforms out there that use much more effective, less expensive ammunition that it's a no brainer to stay away from the .380 ACP. It's cute and fashionable and popular, but so is that pervert Caitlyn/Bruce!

The bottom line on .380 is that the physics are completely against you on acceptable performance: if it expands, it doesn't penetrate far enough and if it penetrates far enough, it didn't expand.

[Chuck Haggard]

To mirror Wayne's thoughts;

The .380, in modern times, is IMHO a niche caliber. One can get pistols in this caliber small enough to take the place of guns that were traditionally "hideouts", like the Beretta .22/.25, etc. One can also get larger and very shootable guns in .380, like the Glock 42, with very low recoil. These niches are where I think the .380 belongs nowadays.

Your 9mm too big to carry in the clothes you have to wear that day? Sounds like that LCR sized gun is a good idea, and far better than no gun. Small single stack 9mm recoils too much for you/spouse/mom/pops/etc? That G42 is a very good "Little Old Man Gun", to steal a term from Claude Werner.

My G42 is a teaching/show-and-tell gun for me now, and it's one of my gym shorts guns, used in conjunction with my Dark Star Gear holster. I use it when my Glock 19s are too large/heavy for the carry mode at hand.

Personally, I am OK with .380 ballistics for unobstructed shots in a CCW type personal defense scenario, but then, like Claude, I have been known to go against the conventional wisdom and carry a .22 at times, so a .380 is a magnum by comparison.

My ammo choices include the discussed Hornady XTP/Critical Defense, Hydrashock (the only Hydrashock pistol ammo I will use or recommend...) and the Gold Dot, if I don't have those choices then I carry ball ammo.

[Jeep]

To mirror Wayne's thoughts;

The .380, in modern times, is IMHO a niche caliber. One can get pistols in this caliber small enough to take the place of guns that were traditionally "hideouts", like the Beretta .22/.25, etc. One can also get larger and very shootable guns in .380, like the Glock 42, with very low recoil. These niches are where I think the .380 belongs nowadays.

Your 9mm too big to carry in the clothes you have to wear that day? Sounds like that LCR sized gun is a good idea, and far better than no gun. Small single stack 9mm recoils too much for you/spouse/mom/pops/etc? That G42 is a very good "Little Old Man Gun", to steal a term from Claude Werner.

My G42 is a teaching/show-and-tell gun for me now, and it's one of my gym shorts guns, used in conjunction with my Dark Star Gear holster. I use it when my Glock 19s are too large/heavy for the carry mode at hand.

Personally, I am OK with .380 ballistics for unobstructed shots in a CCW type personal defense scenario, but then, like Claude, I have been known to go against the conventional wisdom and carry a .22 at times, so a .380 is a magnum by comparison.

My ammo choices include the discussed Hornady XTP/Critical Defense, Hydrashock (the only Hydrashock pistol ammo I will use or recommend...) and the Gold Dot, if I don't have those choices then I carry ball ammo.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I am often restricted to a .380 only (when I can carry at all) and my view is that while the ballistics are bad, most of the time a gun is needed, any gun will do. Most of the time, showing a gun is going to stop the confrontation, and when it doesn't, the sound of the first round going off will.

And if that doesn't work? The chances are that I'll be firing at very close range and will keep pulling the trigger.

Life isn't perfect, but a small .380 is a lot better than nothing (and yes, so is a .22--and good shot placement).

[DocGKR]

Friends don't let friends carry .380 Auto. That is all.

[Chuck Haggard]

One just has to realize that some tactical options are no longer available, like being able to shoot through stuff to get at the bad guy, fast reloads, etc.

With my G42 I practice going straight for T-box headshots at close range, failure drills, and NSRs. That makes the most of the ballistics you have available, I think.

[DAVIDF]

Chuck, yes I agree completely. Thanks for your insight.

To everyone else, I would agree with .380 limitations. I have several reasons for carrying it. My wife is extremely proficient with hers. Much more so than the 26 I bought her. She's not quite as proficient with it as her 17 or my 20, but getting closer. Trying to get her to carry a 17 or 20 would take an apocalyptic event. I prefer to carry the same model she's carrying for ammo/magazine compatibility. I wanted a 42 for myself to carry running, cycling, etc., where weight and size are particularly important. My wife developed arthritis in the joints of several fingers. She has large hands and my 20 and her 42 are actually very good sizes for her. With either the extremely large grip or small grip, she can position her hand so that she doesn't have to bend those joints as much with either pistol. Both are better than her 17. Plus, due to the soft recoil of the 42 it is still reasonably comfortable to shoot when the arthritis flares up. Within the last few weeks I have begun developing the same issue so I think I'll appreciate that lighter recoil in the future. After finding how easy it is to be proficient with a 42 (I am usually as proficient with it as my 17 or 20) I carry it quite often. If I feel the need for more, such as walking at night, I'll carry my 20 or 17 with a weapon mounted light.

[Chuck Haggard]

David, it sounds like you have things well thought out

[Jeep]

Friends don't let friends carry .380 Auto. That is all.

Life is imperfect, though, and a .380 is far better than nothing, especially since most defensive uses of handguns involve no shots fired.

As for the ballistics? Well, at least it is better than a .25.

[LtDave]

Let me second Chuck's recommendation for Federal Hydrashok in .380.

In three of my guns a Sig P230, a Glock 42 and a S&W BG380 it is the most accurate JHP. And I have tried a bunch. All three shoot it under 1.5" at 15 yards off the bench. The BG380 managed 1.125" with it, DAO trigger be damned. Hornady Critical Defense also shoots well in the G42 and the Sig, but it was only so-so for me in the S&W.

[Sigfan26]

Friends don't let friends carry .380 Auto. That is all.

Some can not be reasoned with (for the niche roll, at least). For those folks, what would your recommendation be?

[El Cid]

.380, even with ball ammo, doesn't get through things like car door or auto glass reliably. Example; One of the last shootings I worked on the job was a dude who was shot through the front door glass of the Dollar general store here, the WWB .380 FMJ got through the plate glass with just enough velocity and mass to leave a nasty welt.

I think this point is lost on most folks until seen first hand. Even I didn't really appreciate it until I was in a class where we shot into and out of vehicles. While the only real cover may be the engine block, lots of rounds have trouble getting through doors, fenders and glass. Even the major caliber handguns and many of the rifle rounds had issues. The instructor had me send .308 rounds into the corner of a vehicle (trunk to rear fender) and they didn't always make it through. It was an eye opener for most of us. When rounds did penetrate their path was unpredictable at best. The instructor told us to watch the berm and the impacts were all over.

[Chuck Haggard]

Service pistol calibers are vastly better at getting into cars than any pocket pistol round, just an observation

[DAVIDF]

Hi LtDave,

I have not tried Hydra Shok in our 42's. The biggest reason is due to the experience of someone who investigated several shootings with Hydra Shok that failed to penetrate well. The gel tests look good, second to XTP in my non-expert opinion. I ruled out Critical Defense due to its shallower penetration in tests.

I am getting excellent accuracy with Freedom Munitions XTP load, as good as 1 1/16" @ 15yds offhand at an indoor range. I think that was 7 rounds, could have been 5. I was having a really good day and the lighting was really good on that lane. Other groups that day were not significantly worse. I haven't reproduced those results since, but I think it is my lack of consistency not the pistol or ammo. I'm not as consistent and my eyesight worse than when I was a teenager shooting a model 27 at long ranges. I haven't shot a 42 off a bench, but it seems to me that it can be quite accurate. The Freedom load is the most inexpensive XTP load I've found. The last lot of 1000 rounds was $331 including shipping.

[Little Creek]

Friends don't let friends carry .380 Auto. That is all.

AMEN brother!

[Chuck Haggard]

Hi LtDave,

I have not tried Hydra Shok in our 42's. The biggest reason is due to the experience of someone who investigated several shootings with Hydra Shok that failed to penetrate well. The gel tests look good, second to XTP in my non-expert opinion. I ruled out Critical Defense due to its shallower penetration in tests.

I am getting excellent accuracy with Freedom Munitions XTP load, as good as 1 1/16" @ 15yds offhand at an indoor range. I think that was 7 rounds, could have been 5. I was having a really good day and the lighting was really good on that lane. Other groups that day were not significantly worse. I haven't reproduced those results since, but I think it is my lack of consistency not the pistol or ammo. I'm not as consistent and my eyesight worse than when I was a teenager shooting a model 27 at long ranges. I haven't shot a 42 off a bench, but it seems to me that it can be quite accurate. The Freedom load is the most inexpensive XTP load I've found. The last lot of 1000 rounds was $331 including shipping.

Was that a .380 Hydrashock, or another caliber? I ask because the .380 is the one Hydrashock I will recommend in that line due to it normally failing to expand, or minimally expanding, and thus penetrating more.

[Beat Trash]

Friends don't let friends carry .380 Auto. That is all.


One just has to realize that some tactical options are no longer available, like being able to shoot through stuff to get at the bad guy, fast reloads, etc.

With my G42 I practice going straight for T-box headshots at close range, failure drills, and NSRs. That makes the most of the ballistics you have available, I think.

I'm in a tough spot as it relates to the 380.

I fully agree with Gary Roberts comments. We hosted a couple of ballistic workshops in 2011 in which 380 was included in bare gel shots. Seeing the lack of penetration was very eye opening. It amazes me when I see officers who are 5'10" - 6' tall and 200 lbs, who only carry a S&W bodyguard 380 off duty. I personally feel the shield is a bit too small...

I also agree with Chuck in that there are times when a 380 is the only viable option at the moment. If given a choice between a 380 or nothing, well...?

Case in point, my wife is about to undergo a career change. One that would require travel and staying in the location for a few days at a time. She is going to obtain a CCW permit. My wife has a Sig320c and a Shield 9mm at her disposal that she shoots well enough. But my wife is about 5'7" and about 115 lbs. There are times when the Shield is too much to conceal without drastically altering her lifestyle and dress. A Glock 42 on the other hand gives her options.

I respect the opinions of both the good Doctor and of Chuck. I think my personal opinion of the 380 lays in-between the two. I would never recommend a 380 when a 9mm is an option. But I would never recommend going unarmed if a 380 is an option.

[DAVIDF]

Chuck

Yes, it was a .380 Hydra Shok that failed to penetrate sufficiently in a body, two or three instances if I recall correctly. I did not witness or investigate that myself. The gentleman who posted it on another forum has been an investigator for a state attorney as well as a defense attorney. One failed to penetrate the back of a skull and if I recall details correctly at least one other was in the center of the chest. He also indicated there were far more shootings that he investigated involving FMJ and all of those penetrated adequately. I'll try to find it. Not someone I can't completely verify his credibility, but seems to be reporting the incidents factually without any exageration as in some forums. Of course, that is not a large sample but made me wary of carrying that load.

The .380 XTP seems to penetrate a bit more than the Hydra Shok in gel, but not by a large margin. If the Hydra Shok doesn't actually have sufficient penetration in actual shootings, then what could be expected by a .380 XTP load? I certainly don't know.

Beat Trash,

I'm in the same situation with my wife. She's 5'08" and about 125. We've tried having her conceal a Glock 17 unsuccesfully. She shoots duty sized pistols well and likes my 20. But, not so much with small snappier pistols.

[Chuck Haggard]

I would never recommend a 380 when a 9mm is an option. But I would never recommend going unarmed if a 380 is an option.

I'm of the same train of thought.

[Chuck Haggard]

Chuck

Yes, it was a .380 Hydra Shok that failed to penetrate sufficiently in a body, two or three instances if I recall correctly. I did not witness or investigate that myself. The gentleman who posted it on another forum has been an investigator for a state attorney as well as a defense attorney. One failed to penetrate the back of a skull and if I recall details correctly at least one other was in the center of the chest. He also indicated there were far more shootings that he investigated involving FMJ and all of those penetrated adequately. I'll try to find it. Not someone I can't completely verify his credibility, but seems to be reporting the incidents factually without any exageration as in some forums. Of course, that is not a large sample but made me wary of carrying that load.

The .380 XTP seems to penetrate a bit more than the Hydra Shok in gel, but not by a large margin. If the Hydra Shok doesn't actually have sufficient penetration in actual shootings, then what could be expected by a .380 XTP load? I certainly don't know.

Without further details I'd take that with a grain of salt.

Any bullet can fail to penetrate a skull, I have seen cases here first hand where .40 FMJ failed to get into a shooting victim's skull that they were basically not seriously injured by a "headshot", and .40S&W with FMJ ammo clearly has more than enough penetration to get the job done.

[DAVIDF]

I think I found where I read about the Hydra Shok failures. Can't access it at the moment, so I'll try at home tonight and update if there were further details. Been a while since I read it, so I can't remember all the details.

Was the .40 FMJ at an extreme angle that contributed to the lack of penetration?

[Chuck Haggard]

I think I found where I read about the Hydra Shok failures. Can't access it at the moment, so I'll try at home tonight and update if there were further details. Been a while since I read it, so I can't remember all the details.

Was the .40 FMJ at an extreme angle that contributed to the lack of penetration?

Nope, skulls just make that happen sometimes, even a slight angle can cause that.

[Totem Polar]

I would never recommend a 380 when a 9mm is an option. But I would never recommend going unarmed if a 380 is an option.

I can dig it. I've always said that a micro .380 is so much closer to nothing than to a Gov't 1911 with regard to carry, and so much closer to the Gov't 1911 than to nothing when one needs a handgun that they sort of justify themselves automatically when a service caliber is unworkable. That said, my 42 is in the safe and my 43 is not.

As to skulls, a singular anecdote: a guy in my town was shot right in the bean by an off-duty cop with dept issue 180gr GDHP .40, and it went around his noggin under the skin and on its merry way into somebody's kitchen. Shootee ran off and easily lived to later file suit, FWIW. Others here who are around this stuff for a living will undoubtably have more and similar stories.

[witchking777]

I can dig it. I've always said that a micro .380 is so much closer to nothing than to a Gov't 1911 with regard to carry, and so much closer to the Gov't 1911 than to nothing when one needs a handgun that they sort of justify themselves automatically when a service caliber is unworkable. That said, my 42 is in the safe and my 43 is not.

As to skulls, a singular anecdote: a guy in my town was shot right in the bean by an off-duty cop with dept issue 180gr GDHP .40, and it went around his noggin under the skin and on its merry way into somebody's kitchen. Shootee ran off and easily lived to later file suit, FWIW. Others here who are around this stuff for a living will undoubtably have more and similar stories.

Stories like this make me wonder what in the world goes through someone's head to think a .22 derringer will "Open them up like a screen door" and yet badmouth 9mm as a viable carry option! Just remember,for a one shot stop use .45 ACP,a 9mm takes half a mag to stop someone......

[DAVIDF]

Chuck,

I found the post that I had read quite a while ago. Not sufficient information to determine why or what caused .380 JHP's not to penetrate sufficiently, other than some barrier. In my distant memory I thought there were more details. This is from Erich on Smith and Wesson Forum:

"So, I've worked in some capacity on a couple dozen killings with .380s, and a few more .380 shootings in which no one was killed. I've seen three instances of .380 JHPs (Hydra-shoks and Golden Sabers, IIRC) failing to adequately penetrate - and this actually represents the majority of the .380 JHP cases I've seen (I think there were a couple others, but I've seen many more shootings with ball in this caliber). Now, in those failures, one guy lived after being shot three times (once in the head, once in the chest and once in the ***), though another guy was killed by the same .380 Hydra-Shok used in that shooting. In the other case, the JHPs (I'm pretty sure they were GSs) failed to penetrate various barriers, but both guys were later killed with execution-style headshots with the same rounds.

Based on what I've seen, it is very common for a bullet to need to penetrate an arm or some similar barrier before it can get to the vitals at which it was aimed. Slow, light bullets (and, yes, 95-grains at under 1k fps is slow and light in my opinion) like those put out by the .380 don't seem to do well when hollowpoint "brakes" are utilized.

Over the course of the 200 handgun killing cases I've worked on (and taking into account my sometimes unique ability to get the detailed afterstory from the shooter himself), I've come to the belief that, to be assured of stopping, one must put hits on vital structures (brain/spinal cord or heart/aorta) of an aggresssor. I don't see how .380 JHPs add to a shooting's effectiveness, but I've seen a high percentage of instances in which they detracted from it. I wouldn't use .380 JHPs - not that they can't work, just that I've seen too many cases (for my comfort level) in which they failed to work. They'd be great for putting down a wounded horse, however (there was just a thread on this, so the thought is fresh in my mind) - or other execution-style or perfectly unimpeded-to-the-vitals shots. The realities of force-on-force combat render the availability of such shots something on which we would be foolish to depend.

That said, I've never seen a case in which .380 ball failed to adequately penetrate....

In fact, I've worked on one shooting in which a .380 ball round (out of a relatively long barrel) overpenetrated and injured an unintended victim (Rule 4, people). Now I've seen a whole lot of .380 ball rounds not overpenetrate, but this shows how Mas is right when he warns us to consider the dangers of overpenetration, even with mousegun rounds....."

[Chuck Haggard]

They .380 ball round not overpenetrating has been something I have seen quite a bit of, the bullets lodged on the far side under the skin in common in my observation.

I do know of one LE BUG shooting where the ability of the .380 FMJs, launched from an AMT Back-up, to get through the bad guy's forearms and into his chest was key to stopping the bad guy, he was aiming the officer's duty gun back at him after a successful gun grab.

[Wayne Dobbs]

They .380 ball round not overpenetrating has been something I have seen quite a bit of, the bullets lodged on the far side under the skin in common in my observation.

I do know of one LE BUG shooting where the ability of the .380 FMJs, launched from an AMT Back-up, to get through the bad guy's forearms and into his chest was key to stopping the bad guy, he was aiming the officer's duty gun back at him after a successful gun grab.

You're right about the under skin stops, Chuck. I once was doing a book in strip search on a street turd and noted three (!!) lumps in his back at the high abdomen, low chest level. He informed me they were bullets from a .380 ACP and that they'd been received six weeks earlier when he tried to rob a dope dealer in Fort Worth. Said dealer had shot him, causing minor inconvenience, since he was already out capering again. Another strike against this sorry excuse for a defensive pistol caliber.