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DocGKR
08-31-2011, 01:00 AM
This week we tested some 9 mm 124 gr +P JHP's in contrast with current 147 gr duty ammunition.

Fed HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1208 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.2", Ave RD = 0.64", Ave RL = 0.38", Ave RW = 123.8gr
4LD: Pen = 14.4", Ave RD = 0.53", Ave RL = 0.39", Ave RW = 124.1 gr
AG: Pen = 14.2", Ave RD = 0.46", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 123.0 gr

Rem Golden Saber 124 gr +P bonded JHP (GSB9MMD) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1188 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.6", Ave RD = 0.59", Ave RL = 0.37", Ave RW = 123.0 gr
4LD: Pen = 15.9", Ave RD = 0.55", Ave RL = 0.41", Ave RW = 124.1 gr
AG: Pen = 14.2", Ave RD = 0.46", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 123.8 gr

Fed HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1014 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.2", Ave RD = 0.63", Ave RL = 0.39", Ave RW = 147.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 15.4", Ave RD = 0.53", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 147.2 gr
AG: Pen = 13.0", Ave RD = 0.50", Ave RL = 0.59", Ave RW = 143.6 gr

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/124grPHSTampGS_zps51d363f9.jpg

The photo depicts two of the 147 gr HST control rounds to the left of the dime--the top one fired into BG, the bottom into 4LD. The top row to the right of the dime is the 124 gr +P HST fired into BG, followed by the same round into 4LD. The third row is the 124 gr +P bonded Golden Saber in to BG, with the bottom row being GS shots into 4 LD.

Both the 147 gr HST and 124 gr +P HST rounds are among the finest 9 mm duty loads currently available.

ToddG
08-31-2011, 09:05 AM
Thanks, DocGKR! As someone who has been carrying the P9HST3 for a while, it's great to see in black and white (and in lead, gel, & denim).

SteveB
08-31-2011, 11:35 AM
Doc, I wonder how bullet performance in these loads would change as the barrel length is reduced? Does it make sense to favor the 124 +P over the 147's in shorter barrels (for instance the 3.5" barrels of the M&P9c or G26)? Thanks.

DocGKR
08-31-2011, 12:57 PM
The G26 is a 3.5" barrel, G19 is 4", G17 is 4.5". Generally we test using a 4" barrel, although in this specific test we were asked to use a G17. There is minimal difference using well designed 9 mm ammunition in barrels from 3.5" - 4.5". Now go down to a 3" barrel or use another caliber, things can change a bit.

Nephrology
09-21-2011, 07:12 AM
Thanks for the great tests doc.

How does the 147gr Golden saber compare to its 124gr +P cousin?

digiadaamore
09-23-2011, 04:37 PM
have you tested the plus p 147 at all? it appears to expand like standard pressure in bg, when shot through 4ld:) but tests ive seen showed slight underpenetration id like to see what it would do in a formal test

DocGKR
09-23-2011, 06:31 PM
We have had no LE requests for evaluation of the 147 gr +P HST and thus have not tested it; however, I will see if our ATK rep has a box they can spare and run some tests in the next few months.

The 147 gr GS works OK.

9mm Rem 147 gr JHP Golden Saber GS9MMC fired from S&W 5906 at ave vel of 1024 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 14.8”, RD = 0.59”, RL = 0.43”, RW = 147.8 gr
4LD: Pen = 18.3”, RD = 0.58”, RL = 0.51”, RW = 147.7 gr

JodyH
09-24-2011, 09:55 AM
Have you done any standard pressure 124gr. HST (P9HST1) testing?
I really like the way that load shoots and feels in my Kahr PM9.
The +P's can be a handful in the little Kahr, but the standard pressure 124's are very controllable.

Another load that doesn't get much press is the Federal 135gr. +P Tactical Bonded LE9T5, at one of the Corbon sponsored "jello shoots" it was a great performer out of my Glock 17.
My P30 nightstand gun is loaded with the LE9T5 right now.

DocGKR
09-24-2011, 12:52 PM
The Federal 135 gr +P Tactical works very well--it is one of the best 9 mm loads available.

9mm Fed 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5) from 4" S&W 5906 at ave vel of 1069 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 16.0", RD = 0.58", RL = 0.36", RW = 126.6 gr
4LD: Pen = 16.3", RD = 0.55", RL = 0.45", RW = 134.0 gr

ATK's own data is available here, including info on the 124 gr standard pressure HST:
http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

G60
09-29-2011, 02:21 PM
Wish this stuff wasn't so darned hard for us non-LEO's to find.

I'm happy with Ranger-T 147gr for now, but i'd love to be able to get a case or two of the HST and not worry if I'll ever be able to find it again/soon.

JDM
09-29-2011, 02:59 PM
Wish this stuff wasn't so darned hard for us non-LEO's to find.

I'm happy with Ranger-T 147gr for now, but i'd love to be able to get a case or two of the HST and not worry if I'll ever be able to find it again/soon.

http://www.kylesgunshop.com/store.php?seller=KylesGunshop&navt1=50216&pd=2271514

Kyle Reese
09-29-2011, 03:00 PM
Wish this stuff wasn't so darned hard for us non-LEO's to find.

I'm happy with Ranger-T 147gr for now, but i'd love to be able to get a case or two of the HST and not worry if I'll ever be able to find it again/soon.

Ask and you shall receive! (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-9mm-federal-le-tactical-hst-124gr-hp-ammo/cName/9mm-hollow-point-ammo) :D

JDM
09-29-2011, 03:01 PM
Links for two weights of HST in 20 minutes. What a forum.

Kyle Reese
09-29-2011, 03:02 PM
Links for two weights of HST in 20 minutes. What a forum.

I love it!

digiadaamore
11-22-2011, 04:32 PM
Hey Doc you had any of the +p 147 come thru yet

DocGKR
11-22-2011, 04:44 PM
Not yet.

rudy99
11-23-2011, 09:20 AM
Wish this stuff wasn't so darned hard for us non-LEO's to find.

I'm happy with Ranger-T 147gr for now, but i'd love to be able to get a case or two of the HST and not worry if I'll ever be able to find it again/soon.

Found two other sources:
50 Rounds of 147gr HST JHP 9mm Ammo by Federal Law Enforcement @ ammoforsale (http://www.ammoforsale.com/federal-9mm-ammo-for-sale-9mm147jhphstfedprem-50)

Federal LE HST 9mm 147gr 50rd Box @ gandrtactical (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=P9HST2)

Joseph B.
11-23-2011, 09:56 AM
Great info, here is a link to the Federal LE wound testing video’s if anyone is interested. If you have never seen them you can skip straight to the pistol and or rifle without going through the intro, ect. It shows some of the testing for the HST and Gold Dot.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/videos.aspx

digiadaamore
11-26-2011, 08:05 PM
Doc i just came across speer 53216 gold dot 115+p+. do you know anything about this round? it appears they make it on and off the specs look pretty good.

DocGKR
11-27-2011, 02:33 PM
The 115 gr +P+ GD did not do that great in our testing; the 124 gr/124 gr +P GD has better penetration and expansion characteristics.

LeeC
12-13-2011, 06:20 AM
The 115 gr +P+ GD did not do that great in our testing; the 124 gr/124 gr +P GD has better penetration and expansion characteristics.

DocGKR -- I've read and heard a lot of pros and cons about the Federal 9BPLE 115 gr +P+. Do you have test results for this load?

Thanks,

Lee

digiadaamore
12-27-2011, 03:11 PM
DocGKR -- I've read and heard a lot of pros and cons about the Federal 9BPLE 115 gr +P+. Do you have test results for this load?

Thanks,

Lee

i second this its readily available and inexpensive id probably stock some if its effective

Robert Mitchum
12-28-2011, 01:27 AM
...........

DocGKR
12-28-2011, 02:48 AM
9mm Fed +P+ 115 gr JHP 9BPLE fired from S&W 5906 (lot # 24C-0684) 5 shot ave:
BG: vel = 1342 fps, pen depth = 11.7", RD = 0.47", RL = 0.21", RW = 67.2 gr

Note that the Federal 115 gr 9BP and 9BPLE were very inconsistent in testing, with insufficient penetration in bare gelatin, bullet fragmentation leading to poor expanded diameter, and a high failure to expand in denim testing.

There are NUMEROUS better loads available today: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887.

LeeC
12-28-2011, 07:41 AM
9mm Fed +P+ 115 gr JHP 9BPLE fired from S&W 5906 (lot # 24C-0684) 5 shot ave:
BG: vel = 1342 fps, pen depth = 11.7", RD = 0.47", RL = 0.21", RW = 67.2 gr

Note that the Federal 115 gr 9BP and 9BPLE were very inconsistent in testing, with insufficient penetration in bare gelatin, bullet fragmentation leading to poor expanded diameter, and a high failure to expand in denim testing.

There are NUMEROUS better loads available today: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887.

Thanks DocGKR. "very inconsistent" in actual testing is not a characteristic I want in equipment I'm betting my life on. I was stuck on the "utils" per dollar proposition, and the fact that the 9BPLE round had such a good pedigree. But reliability trumps every other attribute for defensive gear in my book, so I'll be switching to one of the loads you've recommended.

I think I will have to change my practice habits to keep my practice ammo budget under control. Since I unload/reload for dry fire practice a lot, I usually move the cartridges around within the magazine to avoid bullet compression issues I've heard could become a problem. And I have been shooting up my everyday carry 9BPLEs every week or so to keep some practice with the hotter load and to keep the carry ammo fresh. I've been thinking about buying a second Glock 19 for a number of reasons, and having one that matches my EDC for dry fire practice is now another reason on my list.

LeeC
01-08-2012, 01:04 PM
OK, so I'm loading up a few magazines for my Gen4 G19 with my newly acquired Federal 9mm +P 124 grain HST P9HST3, and headed to the range. What is the thinking on how many rounds of a specific load need to be run through a specific instance of a gun (mine), when there are already many people shooting the same combination (P9HST3 in Gen4 G19) ?

I know some folks follow a rule of shooting 500 to 1,000 rounds before considering the load proven for their EDC gun. At $30/box that's a $600 investment that seems kind of unnecessary. I've already run about 500 rounds of Federal 9BPLE +P+ 115 grain through the gun and it seems to me that the rounds are fairly similar. I"m inclined to shoot maybe 50 to 100 and call it done.

Thoughts?

TGS
01-08-2012, 02:06 PM
I've already run about 500 rounds of Federal 9BPLE +P+ 115 grain through the gun and it seems to me that the rounds are fairly similar. I"m inclined to shoot maybe 50 to 100 and call it done.

I agree, and that's all I do. My reasoning is that if the gun is already sufficiently reliable with varied brands/types of FMJ ammo over a significant quantity (1000+) then it's only going to be unreliable with your carry ammo if the JHP ogive doesn't jive with the gun.....and if that's the case, you're not going to need more than one box of ammo to figure it out, because it's going to choke a lot.

If that's asking to get killed, then I'll take my chances because I don't have $600 laying around just to call myself special.

DocGKR
01-08-2012, 04:49 PM
I put 500-750 rds of FMJ through the pistol. If all is good, then 100-250 rounds of duty ammo. If things functioned without issues, then I carry it without worries.

tjbeck
01-09-2012, 10:51 AM
Doc, just curious if the Ranger T ammo is comparable to the HST's. I have and carry RA9TA 127gr +P+ but, have seen a lot of glowing reviews for the HST rounds. Is there much of a difference in performance. Thanks for the information already in the thread.

DocGKR
01-09-2012, 02:22 PM
One of the largest west coast LE agencies carried Ranger Talon (147/180/230) for over a decade and switched to the analogous HST loads about 5 years ago--both have given good service, with a slight edge to HST.

LeeC
01-09-2012, 08:15 PM
I put 500-750 rds of FMJ through the pistol. If all is good, then 100-250 rounds of duty ammo. If things functioned without issues, then I carry it without worries.

Thanks DocGKR. Sounds like a reasonable guideline that I will hang on to.

Thanks all.

UNK
02-19-2012, 07:05 PM
Both the 147 gr HST and 124 gr +P HST rounds are among the finest 9 mm duty loads currently available.[/QUOTE]



So what is the deciding factor or factors in which gr to carry?

DocGKR
02-19-2012, 07:08 PM
What is more accurate and reliable in your pistol?

Which can you reliably procure at a reasonable price?

I use the 147 gr; ToddG uses the 124 gr +P; look at ATK's own data and decide which performance parameters you wish to emphasize: http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

Rodney Ledbetter
02-20-2012, 10:29 PM
Great Post. How many autopsy's of human shooting victims have you attended and does that factor in your evaluation of ammunition performance?

DocGKR
02-21-2012, 11:43 AM
A variety of equally important methodologies are used for terminal performance testing, including actual shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, and post-mortem data and/or surgical findings; properly conducted ethical animal test results; and laboratory testing—this includes the use of tissue simulants proven to have correlation with living tissue. Some individuals seem to be under the mistaken impression that one of these areas is more important than others--this is not the case, as each category provides important information to researchers.

My background can be found on page 2 of an open source briefing I presented a few years ago: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf.

mnealtx
02-21-2012, 11:49 AM
Thanks for the updates, Doc!

396
02-24-2012, 09:36 AM
We have had no LE requests for evaluation of the 147 gr +P HST and thus have not tested it; however, I will see if our ATK rep has a box they can spare and run some tests in the next few months.

The 147 gr GS works OK.

9mm Rem 147 gr JHP Golden Saber GS9MMC fired from S&W 5906 at ave vel of 1024 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 14.8”, RD = 0.59”, RL = 0.43”, RW = 147.8 gr
4LD: Pen = 18.3”, RD = 0.58”, RL = 0.51”, RW = 147.7 gr

Doc,

I know the 147gr GS is on your approved list, but am curious why you consider it only OK. The figures listed above make it seem more impressive than some of the highly recommended ones. I know different folks weigh different aspects more importantly than others, so I'm curious of your thoughts on this specific round. Has it just not been as thoroughly and extensively tested as other options?

Thanks

nternal
04-21-2012, 06:05 PM
Has anyone ever seen the HST show up anywhere in Canada. Finding Winchester Ranger T series is almost impossible. I would suspect that the HST would be even harder to find up here.

Chuck Haggard
04-28-2012, 10:12 AM
Doc,

I know the 147gr GS is on your approved list, but am curious why you consider it only OK. The figures listed above make it seem more impressive than some of the highly recommended ones. I know different folks weigh different aspects more importantly than others, so I'm curious of your thoughts on this specific round. Has it just not been as thoroughly and extensively tested as other options?

Thanks

For a duty round I don't think it does as well as the others through glass, which can be very important to some folks depending on mission profile.

If it was what I could get a good supply of I would carry it off-duty and have no worries.

396
05-01-2012, 06:54 PM
For a duty round I don't think it does as well as the others through glass, which can be very important to some folks depending on mission profile.

If it was what I could get a good supply of I would carry it off-duty and have no worries.

Thank you.

cnelson
05-15-2013, 01:16 PM
I know this thread is old, but it is the most on target on what I am asking.

I am interested in the tests/results of Cor-Bon flagship 9mm bullets; SD09115 and SD09125.

I am surprised to see the heavier (147g) bullets for 9mm being so highly rated now, I remember them not reliably expanding, especially from less than 4" barrels.

Can you please enlighten me? I currently use the SD09115 in my Kahr cw9, and my larger pistol. And I would like to understand how this round is lacking and why when moving to another round.

Thanks in advance!

Sparks2112
05-15-2013, 01:43 PM
I know this thread is old, but it is the most on target on what I am asking.

I am interested in the tests/results of Cor-Bon flagship 9mm bullets; SD09115 and SD09125.

I am surprised to see the heavier (147g) bullets for 9mm being so highly rated now, I remember them not reliably expanding, especially from less than 4" barrels.

Can you please enlighten me? I currently use the SD09115 in my Kahr cw9, and my larger pistol. And I would like to understand how this round is lacking and why when moving to another round.

Thanks in advance!

The short answer is technology has improved.

DocGKR
05-15-2013, 02:21 PM
What data do you have that would indicate Cor-Bon SD09115 and SD09125 are effective duty loads that meet all the FBI test criteria?

Why do you think 147 gr JHP's have not been effective?

cnelson
05-15-2013, 03:47 PM
Please know that I am asking these questions so that I may learn. And Dr. Gary here has been leading in real ballistics research, but I couldn't compare any data with what I thought to be top notch what is considered the best now.

I also apologize, as my knowledge is 10+ years old and came from backyard tests, the book stopping power, and Massad Ayoob.(and some online sources I thought to be good) Between these I switched from federal for my SD, to corbon.(and also 9mm rather than 38 special) It was my understanding that they where effective duty loads that meet test criteria. I knew of many LE using those loads(as well as corbon for the 38 special) So if its not, then i guess I learned something already.

I'm also asking because some of what I read is the tests are being done with various barriers, and at least a note here or there for barrels smaller than 4". But all I see is a list of good ammunition without any data to make my own choice from them.(or even if other rounds would be better for other situations, such as LE care more about car door or windshield barriers)

About the 147 not expanding, Many years ago I shot 147g into milk containers(and some limited gell on a hot day) out of subcompact pistol and did not having reliable expansion. I don't remember exactly what that ammo was, but it was 147g federal. Yes, I know, not good tests, but it was either that or trust other people doing the same thing or less.

If the data I am asking about is publish, please point me to it, as everything I find basically points back the data here on these forums.

Again, I'm not questioning you guys, I'm trying to learn.

TGS
05-15-2013, 04:54 PM
There's probably some articles about the performance of Cor-Bon over in the old Firearms Tactical journal archives (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm), which is a good source of peer-reviewed and properly cited information. If I'm not mistaken, there also might be some stuff about the efficacy of water jug and wet pack testing....long story short, it's useless.

Some of the older 147gr options did indeed have failures to expand, but pretty much every design back then was less robust and prone to clogging anyway. Still, that doesn't mean the 147gr options were not effective or preferred to lighter, faster 115gr options that routinely expanded well (if not clogged) but failed to penetrate deep enough to disrupt vital tissue. I think it was 1987 when the SDSO tactical team had a shootout with sumdood, and it took 27 rounds of 115gr Silvertip to incapacitate him. All rounds impacted as what can be considered good center-mass lethal hits, but they failed to reach vital tissue. He finally dropped when the 27th round "missed" and hit some big important blood vessel by chance. This wasn't necessarily a freak event either, as it was being noted by police departments across the nation and most famously exemplified by the Platt/Matix shooutout in Miami. SDSO switched to the 147gr Silvertip and their problems with incapacitation were reduced significantly.

I think that story is covered in the Firearms Tactical journal archives as well, but this was hopefully a decent primer. And, of course, as another member mentioned.....it's not 1989 anymore. Bullet technology and design have evolved and changed just a bit in the last 20-30 years, mostly driven by evidence.

DocGKR
05-15-2013, 05:30 PM
I've got the autopsy x-rays from the SDSO shooting mentioned above--very scary looking.

Interested individuals might wish to read this review of Marshall and Sanow's "Handgun Stopping Power", as the book has some significant issues: http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm.

Many types of Corbon handgun ammunition has problems meeting basic LE handgun terminal performance requirements as established by the FBI BRF. For LE duty and self-defense ammunition, it is always a good idea to stick with vendors who have an established track record of supplying large government contracts, as they typically offer better QC; typically Black Hills, Federal, Hornady, Remington, Speer, Winchester.

A variety of equally important methodologies are used for terminal performance testing, including actual shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, and post-mortem data and/or surgical findings; properly conducted ethical animal test results; and laboratory testing—this includes the use of tissue simulants proven to have correlation with living tissue. Some individuals seem to be under the mistaken impression that one of these areas is more important than others--this is not the case, as each category provides important information to researchers.

The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents.

Like SDPD, other large California agencies have successfully used the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as LAPD, LASO, SJPD, SCPD. These and other California agencies successfully using the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings, all who have successfully used 9mm 147 gr JHP loads.

Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas. Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber. In addition, during the ammunition trials for the U.S. Military M11 pistol conducted by Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the 9mm 147gr JHP was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. Not to mention the FBI has consistently selected 9 mm 147 gr JHP's for issue to their personnel who are running 9 mm.

ST911
05-15-2013, 06:19 PM
The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents.

Like SDPD, other large California agencies have successfully used the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as LAPD, LASO, SJPD, SCPD...

...In addition, during the ammunition trials for the U.S. Military M11 pistol conducted by Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the 9mm 147gr JHP was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. Not to mention the FBI has consistently selected 9 mm 147 gr JHP's for issue to their personnel who are running 9 mm.

IIRC, much of the above involves the 9MS load specifically, yes?

DocGKR
05-15-2013, 11:10 PM
I believe 1/3 of the SDPD shootings were Winchester OSM, the other 2/3 or so were Federal 9MS; both the Win OSM and 9MS had problems with plugging when shot through heavy clothing. Most of the other CA LE agencies mentioned were using later generation designs like Ranger Talon, Gold Dot, and Fed Tac or HST. Obviously the FBI is issuing Win Bonded.

BoppaBear
05-19-2013, 07:01 AM
Hey Doc,

This thread has some great info in it! Thanks. By chance have you done any testing on the RA9TA (127gr +p+ Ranger)? I've seen some online ballistics tests, but nothing professional. I also like the 124gr +p and 147gr that have already been talked about.

Edit: Found this in your Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense sticky:

"The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)"

DocGKR
05-19-2013, 12:12 PM
The RA9TA is OK, it was previously used by agencies here but over time was found not to offer any advantage in OIS incident results compared to the better 124 +P or 147 gr loads. We just keep some RA9TA around now for body armor testing--no one here carries it on duty any more.

9 mm Win 127 gr +P+ JHP Ranger Talon RA9TA
BG: VEL=1320 f/s , PEN=12.9”, RD=0.52”, RL=0.36”, RW=121.1 gr
4LD: VEL=1324 f/s , PEN=12.7”, RD=0.62”, RL=0.38”, RW=123.9 gr

BoppaBear
05-19-2013, 04:45 PM
The RA9TA is OK, it was previously used by agencies here but over time was found not to offer any advantage in OIS incident results compared to the better 124 +P or 147 gr loads. We just keep some RA9TA around now for body armor testing--no one here carries it on duty any more.

9 mm Win 127 gr +P+ JHP Ranger Talon RA9TA
BG: VEL=1320 f/s , PEN=12.9”, RD=0.52”, RL=0.36”, RW=121.1 gr
4LD: VEL=1324 f/s , PEN=12.7”, RD=0.62”, RL=0.38”, RW=123.9 gr

Thanks for this.

I've carried it for some time. My HKs (and I) handle it well, but if there is no major advantage over the plain 147gr or 124gr +p, I may just go back to one of those and negate the additional muzzle flip that it causes. Not that it's not unmanageable, but if there is no real advantage, then I don't see a reason to carry it. It can go into my "rainy day" stash.

LHS
05-19-2013, 11:31 PM
The RA9TA is OK, it was previously used by agencies here but over time was found not to offer any advantage in OIS incident results compared to the better 124 +P or 147 gr loads. We just keep some RA9TA around now for body armor testing--no one here carries it on duty any more.

9 mm Win 127 gr +P+ JHP Ranger Talon RA9TA
BG: VEL=1320 f/s , PEN=12.9”, RD=0.52”, RL=0.36”, RW=121.1 gr
4LD: VEL=1324 f/s , PEN=12.7”, RD=0.62”, RL=0.38”, RW=123.9 gr

I think I know the answer, but I wanted to confirm: is the Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364) as mentioned above identical to the "Bonded PDX1" load, item number S9MMPDB1? Most of the other bonded loads in the list had the civilian-marketed PDX1 equivalents listed, but i didn't see it for the 147gr offering.

DocGKR
05-20-2013, 12:06 PM
Same.

LHS
05-20-2013, 12:15 PM
Same.

Thanks!

Rich
10-01-2013, 05:36 AM
Has anyone ever seen the HST show up anywhere in Canada. Finding Winchester Ranger T series is almost impossible. I would suspect that the HST would be even harder to find up here.

Here in the USA Federal now markets the HST to the public .

But in 9mm I'm just finding the standard pressure 124gr HST
Its 50 FPS slower than +P version.

I know they have the 180gr for the 40S&W

Chuck Haggard
10-01-2013, 08:23 AM
Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas

I'm going to throw out a theory;

People in California often wear less clothing than in places like Alaska, leading to non issues with heavy clothing clogging the bullets and early success of the 147gr loads, which were later improved upon.

Add to this mix that some of the early 147gr ammo had QC issues. A very good friend chronographed some of the early Federal 9mm he was issued through his Sig 226 and was seeing velocities in the low 700s. This is obviously too low, and would certainly lead to issues with fails-to-expand. His agency had an OIS where this exact issue popped up, with six solid hits through a bad guy all failing to expand. Cops talk about these sorts of things .........

So, 147gr often worked early on, but horror stories popped up. Digging into the why, where and when of things often gives perspective.


Interesting conversation with Pat Rogers last week, in which he relayed that non hollow point .38 SWCs worked rather well on bad guys in his experience and the not inconsiderable experience of his troops and the guys he worked with, IF you hit them where they needed to be hit.

It appears that a sufficient hole, made deeply enough, applied with good marksmanship, works. What a concept.




PS; yes, I know that both Alaska and Canada are rather cold in the winter.

DocGKR
10-01-2013, 11:31 PM
Also gets kinda cold in the Sierra's--those tallish mountains on the eastern side of California that get snow on them in winter: places like Mammoth Mountain, Yosemite, Lake Tahoe...

Some of the early 147 gr JHP loads were quite slow--but they were built for a USG contract for use in suppressed MP5's, not for pistols; unfortunately quite a bit of that ammo eventually ended up sold to LE who did not know what it was designed for. Current 147 gr LE JHP is designed specifically for pistols, so it works just fine.

Concur on full wadcutters--they work great; I carried them for years in my J-frames.

Chuck Haggard
10-02-2013, 06:10 AM
Copy Doc, was just delving into some of the history since it turned that direction for a bit. I often like to dig into the why-how-when of the info we have and use, sometimes we end up using TTPs or info we have no idea of how it came to be, or why.

I was thinking specifically to the info from San Diego, I have never been there but I hear the weather is nice. Many of the other successful deployments of 147gr loads were in SoCal, IIRC


In the conversation with Pat we talked about the NYPD use of the .38special SWC, and that led to observations on the supposed effectiveness, or lack thereof, of the .30 carbine. We both think, he with much more experience in application, that these rounds lacked effectiveness (according to the mythology anyway) primarily due to the people using them missing a lot.

MKE.guns
10-30-2013, 04:00 AM
Here in the USA Federal now markets the HST to the public .

But in 9mm I'm just finding the standard pressure 124gr HST
Its 50 FPS slower than +P version.

I know they have the 180gr for the 40S&W

Rich,

Have you found out any additional info on the 124gr HST?
I just purchased my first 9mm (own 40S&W) and all I can seem to find
is the HST1 124gr.

Thanks

LSP972
10-30-2013, 05:38 AM
tpd223, I have an old friend who is a retired LAPD street warrior with five won gunfights under his belt. He told me that the .38 SWC round, which he used in the last two fights, was much more effective than the RNL he used in the first three.

And my uncle, who carried a M1 carbine through the last half of his time as a grunt in the Pacific during WW II, told me, when I asked about the efficacy of the cartridge, "That little rifle was a Jap-killin' SOB!"

.

rsa-otc
10-30-2013, 06:35 AM
tpd223, I have an old friend who is a retired LAPD street warrior with five won gunfights under his belt. He told me that the .38 SWC round, which he used in the last two fights, was much more effective than the RNL he used in the first three.

And my uncle, who carried a M1 carbine through the last half of his time as a grunt in the Pacific during WW II, told me, when I asked about the efficacy of the cartridge, "That little rifle was a Jap-killin' SOB!"

.

My father was in Korea through 2 combat tours with the 2nd Division and carried the M2 which is the selective fire version of the M1 carbine. He talked affectionately about that little gun. So much so that he got a M1 carbine once he was back stateside.

In 1983 I attended the NRA's National Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor Workshop held at Camp Perry right before the National Championships. Lt Frances McGee of the NYPD gave a presentation on the .38spl and was happy with the 158 SWC when it hit it's target. Comes down to what we on this forum say all the time bullet placement means more than bullet design more often than not.

TGS
10-30-2013, 11:03 AM
Just goes to show the difference in experiences. My granddad was in Korea, and loathed the M1 Carbine. Many of his war stories included some gripe about it, mainly revolving around its reliability in cold weather or inability to incapacitate hordes of charging Chinese. He included that most any guy in his unit, including officers, would try to change out their Carbines for Garands or Greaseguns when one became available.

rsa-otc
10-30-2013, 12:01 PM
Just goes to show the difference in experiences. My granddad was in Korea, and loathed the M1 Carbine. Many of his war stories included some gripe about it, mainly revolving around its reliability in cold weather or inability to incapacitate hordes of charging Chinese. He included that most any guy in his unit, including officers, would try to change out their Carbines for Garands or Greaseguns when one became available.

TGS and I discussed this topic before. His grandfather and my father MAY have know each other while over seas, we'll never really know since both have left us before this forum introduced us.

It's interesting because my father got his M2 on a lark, his Garand was stolen within 24 hours of his arriving in Korea. A supply Sargent felt sorry for him and gave my father his M2. My father always felt fortunate that this happened.

Now dad never really talked about his combat experiences, just about someone else's stupid or funny actions during his deployment. So I can't speak to whether he mainly used the M2 in fully or semi automatic mode during combat. this may have colored his experience.

Drang
11-01-2013, 06:43 PM
Just goes to show the difference in experiences. My granddad was in Korea, and loathed the M1 Carbine. Many of his war stories included some gripe about it, mainly revolving around its reliability in cold weather or inability to incapacitate hordes of charging Chinese. He included that most any guy in his unit, including officers, would try to change out their Carbines for Garands or Greaseguns when one became available.

Dad graduated from AIT the day after they signed the armistice, so he got held over at Knox while his order were changed to Germany. But one of his partners on the PD was a Marine rifleman in Korea, and said that by the end of the war, his entire squad would go on patrol humping BARs.

By the time he told me that, I already knew what a "sea story" was...

ToddG
11-03-2013, 07:02 PM
Gents ... this thread is about 9mm ammunition testing. Thanks.

md8232
11-21-2013, 12:35 PM
I'm interested in the P9HST2, but it is scarce. Would another Federal load (P9HS2G1 or 9MS) be acceptable for practice?
Both of these loads have the same BC, Velocity, and Energy as P9HST2.

Thanks

Chuck Haggard
11-21-2013, 12:44 PM
Almost anything that will run your gun will work for practice ammo.

md8232
11-21-2013, 12:51 PM
Almost anything that will run your gun will work for practice ammo.

Yes, but I'd like to practice with something that duplicates the carry load.

Chuck Haggard
11-21-2013, 02:03 PM
Yes, but I'd like to practice with something that duplicates the carry load.

At my job we issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot. There is not ball ammo that totally duplicates that load. What we found out is that it really doesn't matter. Standard velocity 124gr ball shoots to the same POA and gives recoil impulse close enough that we have no issues between the two. That we have a very high hit rate on the street proves this out.

The thing about pistols vs revolvers is that even the light loads for a pistol have to be stout enough to run the gun, in wheelguns they don't, hence causing much of the historical issue with POA not equaling POI..

If you are shooting standard velocity 124 or 147gr then things are even closer. I'm really OCD about stuff like this and even I learned a long time ago to let this one go.

ST911
11-21-2013, 02:24 PM
What Chuck said.

My experience for best matches to the P9HST2 are the Speer Lawman 147 TMJ (53620) and the Federal AE 147 FMJ (AE9FP). I have a bunch of the 147 Hydra-Shocks as well, and they approximate the HST as well.

ToddG
11-21-2013, 04:02 PM
I'm really OCD about stuff like this and even I learned a long time ago to let this one go.

I've got to agree.

If I'm just practicing at the range, I can tell the difference between something like CCI 3509 (115gr Blazer) or Federal AE9DP (115gr American Eagle) and my carry load (Federal P9HST3, 124gr +p) as if one was a .22 and the other was a .50 DE.

In drills I can see (very) small differences in splits.

Whenever I'm doing anything that takes my attention away from recoil, I don't notice the difference whatsoever. I use carry ammo for matches and always have going back to the first IDPA Nationals I shot ('00 or '01). The ammo has never been responsible for my performance or lack thereof.

The only meaningful issue is that as your practice & carry loads grow farther apart in terms of external ballistics they'll have different POIs especially at distance. I always zero my gun to my carry ammo and tend to use it whenever I'm shooting at 50yd or beyond. Note that even two loads that appear identical in terms of bullet weight and muzzle velocity may shoot differently enough in a gun that you need to be cognizant of it. For example, I've had 230gr hardball that had a different POI (especially at distance) than the Winchester Ranger and Fed Gold Dot I've carried in .45's.

Rich
12-08-2013, 09:19 AM
Rich,

Have you found out any additional info on the 124gr HST?
I just purchased my first 9mm (own 40S&W) and all I can seem to find
is the HST1 124gr.

Thanks

Other than I found some 124gr HST at a local gun shop here in Punta Gorda for 38 dollars a box of 20rds. pass
They didn't have any 180 in 40S&W

I still have a stash of 2005 ranger SXT RA9TA 127 +P+

Been told the 127 +P+ had a revision made in 2008

Maybe that why the win LE catalog had the 127 gr penetrating a bit more than the older catalog ..

According to Win LE catalog 127 +P+
BG P= 14.3
Expansion =0.680
RW=116.7grs

Heavy Cloth P=14.4
expansion 0.703
RW 118grs

Auto Glass P=9.7
expansion = 0.519
RW 77.6grs

Rich
01-09-2014, 12:51 PM
The Federal 135 gr +P Tactical works very well--it is one of the best 9 mm loads available.

9mm Fed 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5) from 4" S&W 5906 at ave vel of 1069 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 16.0", RD = 0.58", RL = 0.36", RW = 126.6 gr
4LD: Pen = 16.3", RD = 0.55", RL = 0.45", RW = 134.0 gr

ATK's own data is available here, including info on the 124 gr standard pressure HST:
http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

What about the standard pressure F 124gr B?

Would it have mild recoil like the 147 HST?

BCL
01-09-2014, 06:34 PM
They didn't have any 180 in 40S&W

Not sure if you can buy ammo online where you live, but if you are looking for 180 HST rounds:

http://www.luckygunner.com/40-sw-180-grain-jhp-hst-federal-premium-le-1000-rounds

TheTrevor
01-09-2014, 07:07 PM
I've been able to find 40SW HST at http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/pistol/40sw/ pretty much every time I've checked in the last couple of months, in both 165gr and 180gr varieties for around $30 per 50.

Rich
01-11-2014, 03:28 PM
Not sure if you can buy ammo online where you live, but if you are looking for 180 HST rounds:

http://www.luckygunner.com/40-sw-180-grain-jhp-hst-federal-premium-le-1000-rounds

That's my go to for my lawman ball ammo! I broke down and bought a box 20rds of the HST 180gr.! So I have 1 12rd mag full and the rest of my mags are loaded with 2005 ranger 180gr T

Every time I find HST 124+p I don't have the cash or its out of stock. Hell 2 boxes would last me a for years. I box to test the other to use.

Frank R
02-09-2014, 01:32 AM
A question for Doc.

Why isn't Black Hills ammo listed as one of the best. Is it because it's not or because of the size of the company?

JHC
02-09-2014, 12:00 PM
A question for Doc.

Why isn't Black Hills ammo listed as one of the best. Is it because it's not or because of the size of the company?

I'm pretty sure it's because of the bullet they use. Years ago when they used Gold Dots up and down their handgun line it was thee ammo to get. Then I think they moved to XTPs which in many calibers aren't all that much in the defense load performance.

DocGKR
02-09-2014, 12:06 PM
Because Black Hills does not yet make bullets and loads other vendors projectiles, hence the comment: "Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)". If BH has a specific loading that no one else makes (ex. BH 5.56mm 50 gr TSX) then it is listed individually. BH generally makes superb ammunition.

Frank R
02-09-2014, 12:41 PM
Thanks guys.

I realize that the bullet and velocity are the same as Hornady's Custom but I was wondering about all the components, i.e. powder, primers, brass, would enter into the equation.

Maybe I was over-thinking the whole thing.

ST911
02-09-2014, 05:16 PM
Most of BHA's handgun JHPs are XTPs. There is at least one Winchester I can think of (9mm EXP), and the Barnes copper solids. In gel testing, they performed similarly to Hornady's data for their Custom line and the TAP. I have seen some BHA .40 180gr XTPs that were recovered post-OISs. The unobstructed shots through light clothing did well, and deeply penetrated. Superbly loaded, accurate, and consistent, just an older design of bullet.

I carry the BHA-loaded TAC XP in my 9mms.

DocGKR
02-09-2014, 06:07 PM
"I carry the BHA-loaded TAC XP in my 9mms."

Good choice, especially for shorter barrels.

imp1295
02-09-2014, 08:43 PM
That's a pretty good brief Doc. Not your typical death by PowerPoint stuff. Plus, I'm sure having you actually give the brief would only increase the value.

I'm not the only one who saw some of our inconsistent results with the 5.56 while in the sandbox. Hence why we secured the m-14s from surplus sources back in '02 was actually some un-characteristic foresight by senior leaders.

ffhounddog
02-09-2014, 10:27 PM
I bought a lot of Hornady TAP 124 grain back in 2005 due to them being a decent price but have been using 147 grain Rangers or 124 grain Golden Sabers for carry.

I see a lot of loads that use the Hornady bullet from many ammo companies I have put these in my SHTF kit because they just work in all my carry guns. For some reason the 147 grain Rangers had issues in one of my HKs but I do not know if it was because it was too new when I tried it.

j.d.allen
03-18-2014, 05:03 PM
Good choice, especially for shorter barrels.

DOC, any info on the TAC-XPD load from Barnes? Do they perform the same as the other loadings of this bullet?

DocGKR
03-18-2014, 05:07 PM
Yes...

j.d.allen
03-18-2014, 06:01 PM
Yes...

OK, they should be GTG then correct? They are one of the few defense loads I have ready access to...

Chuck Haggard
03-18-2014, 09:59 PM
I've noted that Barnes version is one of the lowest recoil 9mm rounds I have ever fired. The first shot out of that box I launched I stopped and checked to be sure it wasn't a squib.

j.d.allen
03-19-2014, 02:36 AM
I've noted that Barnes version is one of the lowest recoil 9mm rounds I have ever fired. The first shot out of that box I launched I stopped and checked to be sure it wasn't a squib.

Nice. Very nice. The reliability testing shall commence.

Rich
03-19-2014, 06:33 AM
Most of BHA's handgun JHPs are XTPs. There is at least one Winchester I can think of (9mm EXP), and the Barnes copper solids. In gel testing, they performed similarly to Hornady's data for their Custom line and the TAP. I have seen some BHA .40 180gr XTPs that were recovered post-OISs. The unobstructed shots through light clothing did well, and deeply penetrated. Superbly loaded, accurate, and consistent, just an older design of bullet.

I carry the BHA-loaded TAC XP in my 9mms.

The XTP -HP are highly accurate in my P229. I hear the HAP bullet is even better accuracy wise.

Rich
03-19-2014, 07:19 AM
I've noted that Barnes version is one of the lowest recoil 9mm rounds I have ever fired. The first shot out of that box I launched I stopped and checked to be sure it wasn't a squib.

How do you think the recoil compares to the standard pressure federal tactical 124 bonded or the 124 HST .

And you are talking about the Barnes marked box +P115 right .

Not Black Hills or Corbon DPX /TR , etc.

Rich
03-19-2014, 07:21 AM
Yes...

Thanks to Josh at Barnes and a excellent moderator

Chuck Haggard
03-19-2014, 08:00 AM
How do you think the recoil compares to the standard pressure federal tactical 124 bonded or the 124 HST .

And you are talking about the Barnes marked box +P115 right .

Not Black Hills or Corbon DPX /TR , etc.



Yes, the Barnes loaded ammo. And it says +P on the box, but I not the velocity is only in the 1000s, most of the +P 115gr I have fired over the years is over 1200fps.

Recoil is kind of subjective, but the Barnes I shot recoiled less to me than the 115gr WWB I was also shooting that day.

j.d.allen
03-19-2014, 11:55 AM
Yes, the Barnes loaded ammo. And it says +P on the box, but I not the velocity is only in the 1000s, most of the +P 115gr I have fired over the years is over 1200fps.

Recoil is kind of subjective, but the Barnes I shot recoiled less to me than the 115gr WWB I was also shooting that day.

It's amazing how they are able to get a 115 grain bullet to penetrate that deeply at those lower velocities, especially as much as these expand. Great bullet design.

ST911
03-19-2014, 02:23 PM
The longer bullet length of the 115 Barnes ups the pressure, but it doesn't generate the additional recoil and blast you'd usually expect. I find the BHA loaded TAC-XP to be a soft shooter, the Corbon DPX less so. Test barrel lengths for the published velocities are all 4", IIRC.

Accuracy... I had the wind at my back the other day and fired a 25yd 10rd group of the BHA TAC-XP into a little under 4", 97-2X. POA/POI with my gen4 G17 and I-Dot Pros. I was pleased.

JodyH
03-20-2014, 07:10 AM
Barnes Tac-XPD is my new favorite carry load. Surprisingly little recoil even out of my Kahr PM9. It's performance across the board is excellent as well.

orionz06
03-20-2014, 07:35 AM
Barnes Tac-XPD is my new favorite carry load. Surprisingly little recoil even out of my Kahr PM9. It's performance across the board is excellent as well.

I've shot it from the Shield into gel, made a few folks ask about it after their favorite rounds didn't do nearly as well.

ST911
03-20-2014, 10:54 AM
I've shot it from the Shield into gel, made a few folks ask about it after their favorite rounds didn't do nearly as well.

I'd be interested in your results from that barrel.

Symmetry
03-20-2014, 11:55 AM
Anybody worked up some good reloads with the Barnes 115gr bullet?

DiscipulusArmorum
06-13-2014, 02:58 AM
Would it be possible for the photo link in the original post to be updated please? Either way, thank you for the data.

j.d.allen
06-13-2014, 03:09 PM
Here ya go

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/9mm_HST_GS.htm

Rich
07-23-2014, 03:29 PM
Yes, the Barnes loaded ammo. And it says +P on the box, but I not the velocity is only in the 1000s, most of the +P 115gr I have fired over the years is over 1200fps.

Recoil is kind of subjective, but the Barnes I shot recoiled less to me than the 115gr WWB I was also shooting that day.


I'm still using 124 HST. I've been looking at the Barnes load for awhile now Thanks to YOU.

I've seen a few different velocity test that show low velocity with that load. In one test a Beretta M9 velocity was 1020FPS.

I know the velocity will be a little lower in compact pistols that are under 4inches. 3.5 - 3.9

Now I know about the Barnes Gel test thanks to Josh at Barnes in the tacked treads here and a AR15 and don't think its the same 9mm load used in that test because of the velocity!

Would 1000 FPS be enough velocity for this load to pass the BG and 4layer test?

Chuck Haggard
07-23-2014, 04:43 PM
Pretty sure that's exactly the same stuff he tested. I need to dig up his last paper on that.

Rich
07-24-2014, 05:53 PM
Pretty sure that's exactly the same stuff he tested. I need to dig up his last paper on that.

EDIT

Talking about being mixed up.

The Barnes 9mm gel testing show velocity around 1200 fps

The velocity Ive seen listed out of a M9 was 1020FPS
I also saw other test that show low velocity.

Chuck Haggard
07-24-2014, 05:56 PM
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7205-New-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Tests&highlight=barnes

Rich
07-24-2014, 06:04 PM
Thanks 1069 . so I bet the M9 velocity is right depending on location / temp etc!

I wonder if it was shot with a g17

Chuck Haggard
07-24-2014, 10:55 PM
Doc tends to shoot from duty pistols unless specifically noted.

BoppaBear
07-26-2014, 07:42 AM
Been having issues finding any Ranger or HST in 147gr or 124gr +p. By the time I get the notification from SGAmmo, it's all gone. So, I picked up a few hundred rounds of 124gr +p GD's from ammotogo. They've always been my "back-up" to Rangers or HST's, so I have no problem carrying them... And the fact that they are on Doc's list doesn't hurt😁

JAD
07-26-2014, 07:48 AM
Been having issues finding any Ranger or HST in 147gr or 124gr +p. By the time I get the notification from SGAmmo, it's all gone. So, I picked up a few hundred rounds of 124gr +p GD's from ammotogo. They've always been my "back-up" to Rangers or HST's, so I have no problem carrying them... And the fact that they are on Doc's list doesn't hurt😁

Chuck's enthusiasm for them made them primary for me (and the 230 standard pressure is swappable for me with HST in .45). Wilson / Barnes in the .38 special and .38 super.

BoppaBear
07-26-2014, 08:02 AM
Chuck's enthusiasm for them made them primary for me (and the 230 standard pressure is swappable for me with HST in .45). Wilson / Barnes in the .38 special and .38 super.

Right there with you. I have no problem relying on them as my primary. While GD's may not be the latest in technology, neither are Rangers or HSTs. I'll choose proven and well-documented over the latest and greatest Zombie Killer 2014's, every day of the week.

Rich
07-27-2014, 04:37 PM
Been having issues finding any Ranger or HST in 147gr or 124gr +p. By the time I get the notification from SGAmmo, it's all gone. So, I picked up a few hundred rounds of 124gr +p GD's from ammotogo. They've always been my "back-up" to Rangers or HST's, so I have no problem carrying them... And the fact that they are on Doc's list doesn't hurt��

I will even use the GD124 standard pressure load! and do use 124 HST.

also trying out the slower or under 1200FPS 124 +P loads Tuesday Rem 124+P B and Win 124+P T should be fun since I dislocated my finger 11days ago.


The rem B is some of the best looking ammo I've seen.

Sealed up at both ends. Unlike my Federal 124 and 180gr HST . although I notice win ranger is hit and miss

Chuck Haggard
07-27-2014, 05:54 PM
Back in 2006 we couldn't get any Gold Dot without a 10+ month wait, so I bought 124gr +P Ranger-T because it was in stock right then.

I worried about using a non-bonded loading, and said so in a conversation with one of my assistant FIs. I ended that conversation with "When's the last time we had to shoot a bad guy in a car?" trying to make myself feel better about that decision.

The next three shootings were bad guys in cars.

For a non-bonded bullet the Ranger-T works rather well. I like the 124gr +P, but contacts at LAPD report the 147gr works really well also.

I would carry any of the ammo on Doc's list and have zero worries about it.

Keltyke
07-29-2014, 08:47 AM
Not enough difference to really matter. Carry what you shoot best.

Rich
07-29-2014, 07:01 PM
I know I'm still learning and always will be.

looking at docs testing of 124 +P HST Auto Glass the retain weight is listed 123grs That is interesting? I would of thought it would be a lot less
also the rem 124B+P G compares closely (rem bonded 124 P VS 124 +P HST)

Rich
08-22-2014, 09:27 AM
I know I'm still learning and always will be.

looking at docs testing of 124 +P HST Auto Glass the retain weight is listed 123grs That is interesting? I would of thought it would be a lot less
also the rem 124B+P G compares closely (rem bonded 124 P VS 124 +P HST)

EDIT TO ADD
BTW I also notice how HST 124gr+P and Golden Saber Bonded 124gr+P Performance is almost the SAME.

Federal HST 124gr +P P= 14.2 RD=0.46 RW=123grs
Rem GSB 124gr +P P= 14.2 RD=0.46 RW=123.8

So should I include the rem 124gr+P Bonded among the finest loads available ? ( 147gr HST & 124gr +P HST)

Also appears to me to have a copper jacket not brass?

The Remington bonded 124gr+P is also sealed nicely at both ends. Blue primer sealant and Black Lucas .
Unlike the Federal 124gr HST and 180gr HST and different lots of Ranger T 124gr +P and 127gr+P+

DocGKR
08-22-2014, 11:09 AM
It is on the list:


9 mm:
Barnes Tac-XP 115 gr +P JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Rich
08-24-2014, 08:34 AM
Thanks
About the GSB9MMD jacket? I swear it looks more like copper than brass.

I looked at the RemLE catalog and the jacket is listed as Brass (copper alloy)

I also notice that a couple of the GSBonded Loads don't use 100% lead .(357sig is on of them)

Sigfan26
08-24-2014, 10:47 AM
Thanks
About the GSB9MMD jacket? I swear it looks more like copper than brass.

I looked at the RemLE catalog and the jacket is listed as Brass (copper alloy)

I also notice that a couple of the GSBonded Loads don't use 100% lead .(357sig is on of them)

All my GS Bonded has the same colored jacket. Messages Doc at one point about it and he said that was normal. Guessing it's a byproduct of the process they use to bond the core and jacket.

Rich
08-25-2014, 11:00 AM
All my GS Bonded has the same colored jacket. Messages Doc at one point about it and he said that was normal. Guessing it's a byproduct of the process they use to bond the core and jacket.



Thanks
That's good to know.

j.d.allen
08-25-2014, 11:48 AM
Speer Gold Dot G2 147 gr PT

What the heck is this?!

Chuck Haggard
08-25-2014, 11:50 AM
Speer Gold Dot G2 147 gr PT

What the heck is this?!

It's secret. Shush.

j.d.allen
08-25-2014, 12:13 PM
It's secret. Shush.

hahaha some secret! It's been posted on a public forum. Albeit with no details lol

Chuck Haggard
08-25-2014, 12:17 PM
New Gold Dot design. Think roughly a combo of Gold Dot and Critical Defense tip

j.d.allen
08-25-2014, 12:19 PM
New Gold Dot design. Think roughly a combo of Gold Dot and Critical Defense tip

Ah. Hence the "PT". Nice. Can't wait to try them out.

Rich
08-30-2014, 02:08 PM
I know nothing about this load GD G2 PT .

Im still waiting on the Nosler ammo to be tested mainly the 40 S&W 200gr load.

I saw a 40S&W 4layer test using a 200gr Nosler JHP that expanded well and penetrated 18inches

JDM
08-30-2014, 02:13 PM
New Gold Dot design. Think roughly a combo of Gold Dot and Critical Defense tip

What's the idea behind that?

Rich
08-30-2014, 02:28 PM
What's the idea behind that?

I check the speer /atk and cant find any info. is it a joke

Wayne Dobbs
08-30-2014, 08:46 PM
It is no joke, but the close hold on its performance and existence has somewhat evaporated. Supposed to offer extremely consistent performance, no matter what the barrier. We shall see and I'm guessing the "see" will be at SHOT 2015.

Jeep
08-30-2014, 09:17 PM
It is no joke, but the close hold on its performance and existence has somewhat evaporated. Supposed to offer extremely consistent performance, no matter what the barrier. We shall see and I'm guessing the "see" will be at SHOT 2015.

Good news! They can sell the new stuff at a premium and then discount the 124 +P existing Gold Dot.

ST911
08-30-2014, 10:37 PM
http://www.kiesler.com/defense/productdetail.aspx?pid=23571

http://www.kiesler.com/shop/ProductImages/G2ALG.gif

Rich
08-31-2014, 06:32 AM
Appears to have cuts in the jacket like HST. I don't get why ranger B/ PDX1 doesn't do the same.

From the picture I don't see a plastic tip. just what appears to be a shallow HP EDIT

filled with some type of polymer. Never mind



I guess the 147gr performance is good enough for the Docs approval.


will the 124 and 124+P have the same type of bullet?


Thanks Guys

Chuck Haggard
08-31-2014, 08:16 AM
The guys I have talked to tell me it's the best 9mm load they have ever tested.

KeeFus
08-31-2014, 10:44 AM
The guys I have talked to tell me it's the best 9mm load they have ever tested.

Wow. That's an endorsement! I'd love to see some pics and/or video of its performance, especially in 124 grain flavor. :D

Kyle Reese
08-31-2014, 10:58 AM
I'm pretty much stuck on P9HST3 and Gold Dot 53617.

DocGKR
08-31-2014, 11:25 AM
If the 147 gr G2 has fantastic performance, why bother making a 124 gr or +P version?

Savage Hands
08-31-2014, 11:59 AM
If the 147 gr G2 has fantastic performance, why bother making a 124 gr or +P version?


Because hydrostatic shock and stopping powwahh! :cool:

Mitchell, Esq.
08-31-2014, 12:54 PM
It's a bad time to be a bad guy with all the technology that is going in to ammo.

lyodbraun
08-31-2014, 01:22 PM
Wonder when this new ammo will be on the market ? I'd love to test some in THE 230g 45 ACP ... Look forward to it coming out soon... But I'm sure it'll be hard to find and get a hold of, heck I haven't even seen that new black belt golden saber round from Remington ...

Jeep
08-31-2014, 01:43 PM
If the 147 gr G2 has fantastic performance, why bother making a 124 gr or +P version?

Personally--and I think a lot of folks here would be of the same mind--I won't switch my carry ammo until you fully test the new stuff and tell us it is significantly superior to existing loads.

MichaelD
08-31-2014, 10:39 PM
Personally--and I think a lot of folks here would be of the same mind--I won't switch my carry ammo until you fully test the new stuff and tell us it is significantly superior to existing loads.

What he said. If it hasn't got the good Doctor's recommendation, it isn't worth using.

Savage Hands
08-31-2014, 10:42 PM
Personally--and I think a lot of folks here would be of the same mind--I won't switch my carry ammo until you fully test the new stuff and tell us it is significantly superior to existing loads.


What he said. If it hasn't got the good Doctor's recommendation, it isn't worth using.

.


It is on the list:

Sigfan26
09-01-2014, 12:27 AM
I've started snagging ammo that Doc recommends (at least 250 per style, 500 if available). Never know when supplies will dry up (Federal Tactical 135+p is the best example I have of a load being available, then unavailable). If you have the funds, I'd stock up on multiples of various loads (you know to work in your weapon). And, as always, TEST YOUR CARRY AMMO IN YOUR CARRY GUN!!!

DocGKR
09-01-2014, 02:44 AM
I'd pick one load that works well in your firearm, purchase 1000 rounds or so, then stop worrying about duty/carry ammo. It is the LEAST important part of the equation. Mindset, good initial training, ongoing practice, and a reliable weapon are all more important than what ammo to use...

Likewise pick ONE model firearm, get 2-3 identical weapons, then regularly practice with them for many years until fully mastered. Don't waste a lot of money and effort purchasing multiple different types of firearms that are never used to their full potential.

Spend your resources purchasing 25,000 rounds of practice ammo.

ranger
09-01-2014, 05:47 AM
I'd pick one load that works well in your firearm, purchase 1000 rounds or so, then stop worrying about duty/carry ammo. It is the LEAST important part of the equation. Mindset, good initial training, ongoing practice, and a reliable weapon are all more important than what ammo to use...

Likewise pick ONE model firearm, get 2-3 identical weapons, then regularly practice with them for many years until fully mastered. Don't waste a lot of money and effort purchasing multiple different types of firearms that are never used to their full potential.

Spend your resources purchasing 25,000 rounds of practice ammo.

First thought - best advice ever.

Second Thought - please do not let my wife see this posting.

Rich
09-02-2014, 07:35 AM
First thought - best advice ever.

Second Thought - please do not let my wife see this posting.

I buy a couple boxes a month of SD ammo. I cant afford to buy a 1000rds.

1slow
09-02-2014, 08:22 AM
I'd pick one load that works well in your firearm, purchase 1000 rounds or so, then stop worrying about duty/carry ammo. It is the LEAST important part of the equation. Mindset, good initial training, ongoing practice, and a reliable weapon are all more important than what ammo to use...

Likewise pick ONE model firearm, get 2-3 identical weapons, then regularly practice with them for many years until fully mastered. Don't waste a lot of money and effort purchasing multiple different types of firearms that are never used to their full potentia

Spend your resources purchasing 25,000 rounds of practice ammo.

This makes a lot of sense. I have been on this path for some time now.

Chuck Haggard
09-02-2014, 09:28 AM
I'd pick one load that works well in your firearm, purchase 1000 rounds or so, then stop worrying about duty/carry ammo. It is the LEAST important part of the equation. Mindset, good initial training, ongoing practice, and a reliable weapon are all more important than what ammo to use...

Likewise pick ONE model firearm, get 2-3 identical weapons, then regularly practice with them for many years, after having received professional instruction, until fully mastered. Don't waste a lot of money and effort purchasing multiple different types of firearms that are never used to their full potential.

Spend your resources purchasing 25,000 rounds of practice ammo.


Fixed that for you.

Tamara
09-02-2014, 09:56 PM
Fixed that for you.

But do you have his number? ;)

Chuck Haggard
09-02-2014, 10:09 PM
But do you have his number? ;)

I do, we call each other regularly.............

Savage Hands
09-02-2014, 11:10 PM
But do you have his number? ;)


There must be an inside joke on this, or a coincidence of a cringe worthy moment on another site.

LOBO
10-01-2014, 09:10 AM
Where does the 9mm 124 gr HST standard pressure load, and the 9mm 124 gr Gold Dot standard pressure load stand? I notice that they are not on DocGKR's approved ammo list.

JV_
10-01-2014, 09:17 AM
Where does the 9mm 124 gr HST standard pressure load, and the 9mm 124 gr Gold Dot standard pressure load stand? I notice that they are not on DocGKR's approved ammo list.

He commented on the standard pressure 124 loads here:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12267-Standard-Pressure-124-gr-Gold-Dot-vs-Federal-124-Tactical-Bonded&p=222497&viewfull=1#post222497


Between those three 124 gr standard pressure loads noted above (GD, Tac Bonded, HST), go with whatever is least expensive, readily available, as well as most reliable and offers best accuracy from your pistol, as all three loads are perfectly adequate, as previous posts have discussed.

LOBO
10-01-2014, 09:32 AM
He commented on the standard pressure 124 loads here:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12267-Standard-Pressure-124-gr-Gold-Dot-vs-Federal-124-Tactical-Bonded&p=222497&viewfull=1#post222497

Ah, thank you very much. I called myself searching for it, but obviously not very well.

JV_
10-01-2014, 09:34 AM
No problem. I was able to find it quickly because I just posted the same thing in another thread (a few weeks ago).

tedburns
10-06-2014, 09:44 AM
Where does the 9mm 124 gr HST standard pressure load, and the 9mm 124 gr Gold Dot standard pressure load stand? I notice that they are not on DocGKR's approved ammo list.


He commented on the standard pressure 124 loads here:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12267-Standard-Pressure-124-gr-Gold-Dot-vs-Federal-124-Tactical-Bonded&p=222497&viewfull=1#post222497

Thank you for post questions and answers.

Fire-Medic
10-20-2014, 06:24 AM
Has there been any testing done with the Hornady 135gr +p flex lock ? Just curious as I have some available for purchase locally.....?

Chuck Haggard
10-20-2014, 07:21 AM
Has there been any testing done with the Hornady 135gr +p flex lock ? Just curious as I have some available for purchase locally.....?

Doc has also tested the Critical Duty rounds and posted those tests., along with a wealth of other info.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7205-New-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Tests&highlight=critical+duty

Fire-Medic
10-20-2014, 08:33 AM
Doc has also tested the Critical Duty rounds and posted those tests., along with a wealth of other info.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7205-New-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Tests&highlight=critical+duty

My apologies Chuck I did type "Hornady 135gr +p Flexlock" in the search bar and got "sorry no matches to your search"

Thanks for the information.

Gabe

Beat Trash
10-20-2014, 08:56 AM
Is there any data out yet on the new Speer Gold Dot G2 147 gr 9mm loading yet? This one definitely has my interest.

stingray
10-20-2014, 09:00 AM
I'd pick one load that works well in your firearm, purchase 1000 rounds or so, then stop worrying about duty/carry ammo. It is the LEAST important part of the equation. Mindset, good initial training, ongoing practice, and a reliable weapon are all more important than what ammo to use...

Likewise pick ONE model firearm, get 2-3 identical weapons, then regularly practice with them for many years until fully mastered. Don't waste a lot of money and effort purchasing multiple different types of firearms that are never used to their full potential.

Spend your resources purchasing 25,000 rounds of practice ammo.

This just kind of takes all the emotion out of the argument over bullet and caliber doesn't it? ;-)

Wayne Dobbs
10-20-2014, 09:17 AM
Is there any data out yet on the new Speer Gold Dot G2 147 gr 9mm loading yet? This one definitely has my interest.

I've noticed that Doc has listed the G2 load on the list of suggested duty loads, but apparently due to terms of an NDA, he hasn't put up the testing results. I'm hoping he can furnish that information soon.

Beat Trash
10-20-2014, 01:37 PM
I wasn't aware he was under a NDA, so I will wait until such time as he's able to elaborate w/o violating the
NDA.

I will wait for the results to be released. But I have a feeling the test results may be impressive...

Sparks2112
10-21-2014, 05:49 AM
I wasn't aware he was under a NDA, so I will wait until such time as he's able to elaborate w/o violating the
NDA.

I will wait for the results to be released. But I have a feeling the test results may be impressive...

I've been told by other sources than DocGKR (I've not spoken to him about the G2 at all.) that the 147 GDG2 is going to be the new hotness. For it's first trick out of the gate I believe it will be adopted by a large agency that is currently moving to 9mm.

We'll see.

Fire-Medic
10-21-2014, 12:55 PM
I've been told by other sources than DocGKR (I've not spoken to him about the G2 at all.) that the 147 GDG2 is going to be the new hotness. For it's first trick out of the gate I believe it will be adopted by a large agency that is currently moving to 9mm.

We'll see.

The F=emale B=ody I=nspectors ? ;)

Can't wait until we can get this stuff at the local watering holes.

Beat Trash
10-21-2014, 02:30 PM
If it ends up being the new FBI load, the only downside will be availability. It will take a moment or two to fulfill the FBI's order.

Either way, I am very interested in the test results of this load.

JBP55
10-21-2014, 03:21 PM
The Gold Dot G2 should be announced at the 2015 SHOT Show and available after SHOT.

Steve f
10-21-2014, 03:40 PM
The Gold Dot G2 should be announced at the 2015 SHOT Show and available after SHOT.


I have 2 boxes of this load in hand and have shot a 3rd its pretty good on cars and glass and accuracy has been very good as well in blocks 1911 and cz i have used it in


rumor mill also has a new load in 9mm coming as well i won't say much more than that

JAD
10-21-2014, 04:00 PM
Doc has also tested the Critical Duty rounds and posted those tests., along with a wealth of other info.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7205-New-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Tests&highlight=critical+duty

Note that since that thread Doc has put the CD on his nice list. http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13037-Changes-to-quot-the-list-quot&highlight=critical+duty

LOBO
06-21-2016, 08:32 PM
The 115 gr +P+ GD did not do that great in our testing; the 124 gr/124 gr +P GD has better penetration and expansion characteristics.

Dredging up old thread I know...

Doc, do you have the info on the 115 gr +P+ GD vs the 124 gr/124 gr +P/147 gr GD? I'd like to show it to a friend that is considering the 115 gr +P+ GD as his duty load.

Velo Dog
06-21-2016, 08:55 PM
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx

LOBO
06-21-2016, 11:15 PM
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx

Thanks.