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Slavex
08-30-2011, 09:38 PM
So I'm a fat fucker, 6ft 300lbs. Today I decided to start young more running at practice and ended the day with 20m sprints. I set my Par time for 4 seconds and could only barely make it. First time ever trying flat out. The first 6 runs were 3 at 7 seconds and 3 at 5 seconds. Easily making that I reduced to 4 for the next 10. I probably look like a penguin trying to run, but whatever. Heart rate was pounding (no idea on actual) and shots at 25 still stayed in the 8in circle (10 shots in 6 seconds).
So, the shooting I'm not so worried about, the sprints I'm curious about, beyond dropping pounds what sort of realistic time should I be looking at for 20m?

markp
08-30-2011, 10:02 PM
sounds like making your 4 second par time would be a good goal.
Definitely get a heart rate monitor and figure your maxHR.
Get a good warm up before you start and don't over do anything.

JHC
08-31-2011, 08:56 AM
I've been into conditioning almost as long as shooting and like to work in 100-150m sprints. Interval training is outstanding. I don't think it's a great idea to a guy your size just yet. Sprinting is way more stressful to the joints and muscles. Can I talk you into walking and stationary cycling like a mutha and some resistance training with maybe the Warrior Diet or Paleo Diet to shed a lot of the excess before you tackle wind sprints?

shep854
08-31-2011, 01:04 PM
I'd suggest getting a physical before stressing yourself like that. A heart attack is a bummer.
Start on a deliberate fitness program, THEN shoot stages at a safe pace for you--ignore the clock; finish each stage at a safe speed with good shooting scores.

jetfire
08-31-2011, 01:08 PM
Instead of wind sprints, try pushups. Back when I was HARD-CORE I'd mix sets of pushups in my shooting routine as negative reinforcement for bad shots. Shooting a traditional at a traditional 10 point bullseye target, a 10 or an X would be no pushups, a 9 would be 1 pushup, an 8 would be 2 pushups, etc. Over the course of a 60 shot practice session, I'd get real worn out.

peterb
08-31-2011, 01:36 PM
Be careful with sprints -- I tweaked a hamstring this summer trying to go flat-out without really being prepared for it. I was in good hiking shape, but sprinting is different.

A heart-rate monitor is a good idea. Simple ones start at $60 or so.

Don't try to go hard and fast without building a base. Walking is a fine way to start building a base. Here's what our state says about training for wildland firefighting:

"For the Pack Test, begin by hiking a 3-mile flat course without a pack. When you can cover the course in less than 45 minutes, add a pack with about 25 pounds. Increase the weight until you can hike 3 miles in 45 minutes while carrying 45 pounds.

Also, hike hills with a pack to build leg strength and endurance. Jog the flat course without a pack to build aerobic fitness. Do over-distance training for stamina, and cross-train with mountain biking and weights to build endurance and strength.

Personal health, physical fitness, and work capacity all work towards making conditions safer for all firefighters and the people they protect."

Slavex
08-31-2011, 01:46 PM
I walk a ton at work. Up and down 9 stories of stairs multiple times a day, run them occasionally as well. The wind sprints are a realistic test as at most matches I'll encounter at least 2 stages with at least 10 yds between positions. The one area I need to improve on at matches is getting from spot to spot. I'm currently ranked #2 in Canada as GM in Production Division, so not a new shooter that needs to pace myself.
I am definitely interested in adding things to my practice sessions, but I have very limited time due to working 12hr shifts at work, and trying to have some sort of life.

peterb
08-31-2011, 02:51 PM
I apologize for my assumption -- your self-description in your OP had me imagining something else....

Don't forget warmup and stretching. Feeling my hamstring go in mid-stride was not fun.

shep854
08-31-2011, 02:54 PM
Slavex, I'm relieved to read that you are basically fit. Hopefully, you will be able to shed the burden of excess weight. That by itself will improve your performance. In the short term, regular stretching will help improve flexibility and avoid injury.

markp
08-31-2011, 03:56 PM
I apologize for my assumption -- your self-description in your OP had me imagining something else....

Don't forget warmup and stretching. Feeling my hamstring go in mid-stride was not fun.

I concur - watch one of my training buddys (dark tshirt) get a hamstring cramp, fast fwd to the 5:30 mark
NOTE : AUDIO may not be safe for work

http://youtu.be/dFIlTh40IKU

Slavex
08-31-2011, 06:26 PM
I tore my foot up pretty bad a few years ago while doing my pre-plan run through on a stage. Stretching is super important!
Interested in some diet tips too, not going on a diet so much, as just tips on proper meals. I eat like crap most of the ips on proper meals. I eat like crap most of the time.

JHC
08-31-2011, 06:34 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet
Seems like a balanced discussion. I think it makes sense. One doesn't have to be OCD about it IMO.

http://www.warriordiet.com/
I use a modified version because in it's pure sense, I'll waste away. (My wife hates me for that). My bro' on the other hand stabilized just right with it.

Kyle Reese
09-02-2011, 12:07 AM
I'm doing the Paleo diet now (except for Sat nights :p) and have found it to be the least onerous diet to adhere to, and eating lots of lean meats/fruits/green vegetables for me is appealing.

So far, so good. Day 9.

Slavex
09-02-2011, 12:10 AM
I have to admit the hardest thing for me is the diet. There are two bloody vending machines at work, that are right on the path to the lunchroom and bathrooms. At 4am it's hard to say no to Coca Cola and chocolate bars!

Al T.
09-02-2011, 05:56 PM
I've found that two things really pack on the flab for my Scots/Irish/English ditch diggers physique. Sugar and carbs. I found that cutting out things like all candy, soft drinks, ice cream, pizza, beer, bread helps bunches. Increasing my veggies and lean meat consumption (chicken) really helped.

Maple Syrup Actual
09-02-2011, 07:23 PM
Honestly dude, I would be extremely hesitant to be doing running sprints if I were you...that is serious joint punishment for a guy at your weight.

If you want to get your cardio going in a sprint fashion, I would be doing tabata sprints on a stationary bike if I were you: 20 seconds max intensity, 10 seconds relaxed pace, repeat x8 or until you puke, whichever comes first.

But that is pretty demanding stuff on the heart and lungs as well and I would be hesitant to recommend it to anyone who isn't already doing a fair bit of fitness stuff.

As far as diet - and we both know I have some experience here! - there really are no tips to use that will help you. It's like shooting: good technique and regular practice make you a great shooter. Tips and tricks will only refine your skills once you are playing at a high level.

As far as diet goes, you just eat healthy food, an appropriate amount, or, if you're losing weight, less than an appropriate amount. There are no shortcuts that aren't chemical in nature, and I don't buy in to any of the fad diets much either. Just eat healthy food, and that's all there is to it. It does suck at first, but after a while, it's like when you've split up with a girl with a monster rack, and then your next girl has light Bs, but a tight body overall...you learn to value food differently the same way you learn to value girls differently on the basis of what's available to you.

I would be mildly concerned, if I were in your shoes, about my lead levels once I started to burn off fat. I am unsure how lead is stored in the body, but I believe that a lot of heavy metals are retained in fat tissues. If you begin to burn off a lot of fat, I would maybe keep an eye on the lead levels in your blood. Obviously I'm not a doctor but I recall you had a lot of lead in you before they changed out the ventilation system at Abby...

Anyway the closest thing I have to a tip is this: I use caffeine as an appetite suppressant, personally - that's the chemical shortcut I believe in. It's fairly low on the side-effects scale and surprisingly effective. Naturally with your shift work you'd have to strategize about when to take it or not. But 200mg of caffeine really kills my appetite, while at the same time allowing me to push myself harder during workouts. I do know some guys who mix it with ephedrine, which is legal in Canada, for extra energy during intense workouts. I believe the appetite suppression effects are also intensified. But caffeine alone has certainly been effective for me. On the other hand, I've always been sensitive to caffeine, so I may find it more effective than others would.

Consider that I've cut about 50 pounds since whenever it was...two or three years ago. And I found that it was pretty possible to steadily drop a pound a week while improving my overall fitness level. The workouts don't really burn enough to seriously cut the weight - for that you need to eat less. But by upping my protein and cutting back on food overall, I've shed a lot of fat, and by taking on a regular, structured exercise regimen, I've definitely improved my fitness level pretty dramatically.

TCinVA
09-02-2011, 08:11 PM
I'm doing the Paleo diet now (except for Sat nights :p) and have found it to be the least onerous diet to adhere to, and eating lots of lean meats/fruits/green vegetables for me is appealing.

So far, so good. Day 9.

I've been doing this for a while as well, incorporating the 5/3/1 lifting program and some cardio conditioning Todd mentioned over on TPI.

So far I'm down 35 pounds since June. Working on being under 200 by New Years.

theblacknight
10-03-2011, 09:21 PM
Watch out with paleo. its a great program, but the militant crossfitters take it a bit too far when they scold people for eating white potatos and fruit cause it(dramatic music) spikes your blood sugar. As long as you stick to things they grow out of or run around in the forest, your doing better then most.

jslaker
10-03-2011, 09:29 PM
A mainly paleo diet + lifting helped me get about 40 lbs off. Then I got lazy about it. Been hovering at 6'3/4, 285 for about a year now. Need to get back on it because it was honestly the best I've felt in ages.

Maple Syrup Actual
10-03-2011, 11:34 PM
I predict Rob's sprinting career is about to take off in a big way right now. Just my usual clairvoyance speaking.


I don't disagree with the idea of the paleo diet...but honestly I don't really see the point of these "systems" approaches to eating.

Everybody knows about what's healthy to eat and what isn't. If the majority of your calories are coming from vegetables, whole grains, and lean meats, and you aren't eating more than you're burning, guess what? Even if you have the occasional doughnut, you're fine.

If you are eating at mcdonalds three times a week and your idea of a salad is a bowl of ranch dressing with some nacho chips...hey man, even if you have the occasional healthy meal or walk up some flights of stairs, you're going to be spending some time in fat city.

The thing I do not like about approaches like the paleo diet is that they make healthy eating into something complicated...it's not. Don't do things that are obviously stupid, like frying your bacon burgers in butter. DO do things that are obviously un-stupid. Eat an amount that does not leave you feeling stuffed. Expect to feel hunger regularly. Eat foods that you know are healthy. Presto! Your diet is now healthy and you are probably losing weight.

JV_
10-04-2011, 06:20 AM
I don't disagree with the idea of the paleo diet...but honestly I don't really see the point of these "systems" approaches to eating.I'm right there with you, I don't get it, but if it helps you drop the weight and get healthier - OK.

I was clearly eating more than I needed, but also understanding how many calories were hidden in my diet was a very key point. One ah-ha moment was when I realized that all of that southwest sauce (at Subway) they put on was actually 2-3 servings, and it was costing me 200-300 calories!

Once I started logging my food, it was very clear where the changes needed to be made. Yes, you're hungry for a long time, but your ability to ignore it improves and you don't even notice.

TCinVA
10-04-2011, 07:55 AM
I think paleo is a good way to get folks started on changing body composition because its low calorie while allowing for eating filling and satisfying food... but the militant internet people who lose their mind when someone eats a starch or grain are nuts. It's supposed to be a diet... not a religion.

JHC
10-04-2011, 08:22 AM
I think paleo is a good way to get folks started on changing body composition because its low calorie while allowing for eating filling and satisfying food... but the militant internet people who lose their mind when someone eats a starch or grain are nuts. It's supposed to be a diet... not a religion.

+1. I generally agree. I will not pass up pizza although my diet is slanted toward meat, veggies, fruit and nuts. In fact, I can't afford to skip taters entirely or I would waste away. OTOH, a lot more folks than are aware of it, react badly to the grains; and they won't be aware of it until they kick them. I have seen this first hand, observing someone with pretty shot out knees which an orthopod prescribed bilateral knee replacement for; become pain free after getting off of all gluten. I observed this closely and it was pretty striking change.

JHC
10-04-2011, 08:24 AM
The thing I do not like about approaches like the paleo diet is that they make healthy eating into something complicated....

Paleo is about as simple as anything nutritious can get. ???

Maple Syrup Actual
10-04-2011, 10:37 AM
I mean conceptually...I don't think there is a need to mimic a paleolithic diet (or that there is necessarily a specific benefit to eating foods that were available to our stone-age ancestors). I don't think there is a need to be obsessive about what particular foods you should eat because of whatever dietary religion you've bought in to.

Healthy diet can be summed up as: eat the foods everybody knows damn well are good for you, in reasonable quantity.

Don't eat tons and tons of food, and don't eat lots of junk.

A healthy lifestyle can be summed up as: do the above, plus exercise regularly. People who do this aren't fat. People who are fat don't do this, or, in one case in ten thousand, have some sort of bizarre metabolic disorder. There is no need to overthink things.

That's what frustrates me. If you look at pictures of crowds of people from the 1920s, 50s, or even 70s, you see that almost everybody is pretty lean. Did they have some secret wellspring of fitness and diet knowledge? Obviously not. Did they put a ton of effort in to staying that way? No. They just didn't eat like retards and drive everywhere instead of walking.


That's what I mean by "overcomplicating things". Everybody already knows what they need to know! Fifty years ago, everybody was fine, and it wasn't because they had all subscribed to a specific diet and exercise regime. It was ONLY because they didn't do things which were obviously stupid, and they did do things which weren't obviously stupid.

I dropped fifty pounds myself this way...I just got in the habit of asking myself, "is this a good idea or not?" and presto...reduced portions of healthy foods, and regular exercise.


The subway sauce thing is interesting because it really shows the hazard of foods prepared for you, I guess...if you don't directly control what is going in to your food, there could be nasty surprises in there.

JV_
10-04-2011, 10:41 AM
if you don't directly control what is going in to your food, there could be nasty surprises in there.Agreed. It's much easier to eat 'clean' food when you're preparing it yourself.

Maple Syrup Actual
10-04-2011, 10:51 AM
I should probably admit that I have a highly nutrition-conscious wife so in reality, the only food I actually prepare for myself is protien isolate/skim milk shakes a couple of times a day.

But the principle is the same, I am just able to remain lazy on the actual food prep front.

TCinVA
10-04-2011, 11:58 AM
I mean conceptually...I don't think there is a need to mimic a paleolithic diet (or that there is necessarily a specific benefit to eating foods that were available to our stone-age ancestors). I don't think there is a need to be obsessive about what particular foods you should eat because of whatever dietary religion you've bought in to.


I agree. When I eat I'm not trying to recreate the diet of a dude from 15,000 years ago. At the same time, I think it's doing a good thing by calling the traditional thinking about fats and red meat into question. Fat doesn't make you fat and unhealthy. Truth be told, neither does sugar. It's the amount you take in and your level of activity that produce those results. I'm sure that some foods are metabolically more beneficial than others in certain circumstances and perhaps there are combinations of macronutrients that assist or hinder progress for those attempting to change their body composition...but in the end if you're creating a calorie deficit through caloric restriction or exercise (or both) you'll lose fat. If you watch what you eat from then on, you'll keep it lost.

I like intermittent fasting as a strategy, personally...eating once a day works well for my lifestyle.

JHC
10-04-2011, 12:23 PM
Just finished lunch. An apple and walnuts. ;)

jslaker
10-04-2011, 02:48 PM
lean meats
From a paleo perspective, there's nothing particularly wrong with fatty meats. One of the things about paleo is it kind of turns "common sense" about nutrition on its head.

Even if you don't do the paleo thing (and even when I was, I was never super strict about it), the science I've seen increasingly indicates that what we've "known" about nutritional since the 70s is deeply flawed, and things like dietary fat have been needlessly demonized.


Expect to feel hunger regularly.

One of the reasons paleo-style diets work so well for so many people is because you really don't get random hunger pangs. Intermittent fasting is a pretty standard thing for people on paleo diets.


I agree. When I eat I'm not trying to recreate the diet of a dude from 15,000 years ago. At the same time, I think it's doing a good thing by calling the traditional thinking about fats and red meat into question. Fat doesn't make you fat and unhealthy. Truth be told, neither does sugar. It's the amount you take in and your level of activity that produce those results. I'm sure that some foods are metabolically more beneficial than others in certain circumstances and perhaps there are combinations of macronutrients that assist or hinder progress for those attempting to change their body composition...but in the end if you're creating a calorie deficit through caloric restriction or exercise (or both) you'll lose fat. If you watch what you eat from then on, you'll keep it lost.

I like intermittent fasting as a strategy, personally...eating once a day works well for my lifestyle.

Same. I'm interested in the metabolic aspects, personally. Best way I've heard it described is not engaging in "food reenactment."

Maple Syrup Actual
10-04-2011, 06:46 PM
I would tend to agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with dietary fat...it is just calorically dense and consequently harder to portion correctly.

theblacknight
10-04-2011, 07:51 PM
To get good fat levels, I have(atleast) one big salad and day,with avocado and olive oil as dressing+ other green garden things, and get the rest from almonds/pestashios as snack/go food. With a scale,some honesty and some math you can get your fats which makes grocery shopping easier.

zRxz
10-05-2011, 12:01 AM
The classic idea of restricting fat, no matter its type, where it was derived from, or what processes it was involved in prior to consumption, is simply wrong. Wrong, wrong, WRONG. Aside from poly- and mono- unsaturated fats; saturated and trans- fats; essential fatty-acids Omega 3's, 6's, and 9's (and their effects on the body); cholesterol and human hormones (testosterone levels); fats are a key energy source and absolutely essential to the proper and healthy function of the human body. The right ones need to be taken in. The wrong ones need to be differentiated and restricted. Don't eliminate them entirely. That would be silly.

Maple Syrup Actual
10-05-2011, 11:22 AM
I can't imagine that anyone would eliminate fats entirely from their diet, or even that they would try...although despite strongly misanthropic leanings I do still get surprised by the dumb things I see people attempt. If you primarily eat processed fatty foods, you will have problems...if your sources of fats are healthy foods and not consumed in excessive quantity then it is a good thing.