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Tamara
08-29-2011, 08:52 PM
After ten years of carrying 5" 1911-pattern pistols nearly exclusively, at last weekend's gun show here in Indy, I told Shootin' Buddy that if I found an early G19 for less than four bills, I would buy it.

After roaming the aisles, I found a private-sale G19 for $425 (asking) with those wretched Big Dots on it, another early G19 for $399 with one mag...

...and a two-tone stainless slide M&P9 in the box with the docs for $399. It looked like a new gun. So I bought it.

I took a spare Krag-Jorgensen carbine back to the show the next day, sold it, and used the cash to buy another two spare mags, a bunch of 9mm ball, and a hundred rounds of Winchester RA9TA.

Headed to the range tomorrow AM. If all goes well, my lower back will thank me in a few months...

orionz06
08-29-2011, 08:57 PM
It is a good flavor of Kool-Aid.

JDM
08-29-2011, 08:58 PM
Awesome Tam. Aside from the long range accuracy issues (which by no means afflicts all 9mm M&P's), I really really like the gun, and shoot it pretty well.

Tamara
08-29-2011, 09:24 PM
It is a good flavor of Kool-Aid.

I don't know about Kool-Aid, dude. It's just a gun. ;)

Kyle Reese
08-29-2011, 09:27 PM
My only real issue with the M&P 9's was the POI issues past 20 or 25 yards with it, with several pistols. It pained me to do it, but I sold em all.

I hope you enjoy your new gun. :D

JohnN
08-29-2011, 10:33 PM
Are you planning on using your new M&P in Todd's class the 24th, not as many reloads:p.

Jay Cunningham
08-29-2011, 11:06 PM
Good luck.

Ed L
08-30-2011, 12:36 AM
I took a spare Krag-Jorgensen carbine back to the show the next day, sold it, and used the cash to buy another two spare mags, a bunch of 9mm ball, and a hundred rounds of Winchester RA9TA.

A *spare* Krag-Jorgensen carbine?

Congrats on the M&P. If you have any questions or issues, there certainly are people here who can answer them.

If 1911 users keep deserting the platform, we may need to set up a government subsidy program to keep some out there.

mnealtx
08-30-2011, 06:12 AM
Congrats on the new pistola - you might want to check out the Apex DCAEK, depending on how well you like the trigger.

Al T.
08-30-2011, 08:22 AM
I took a spare Krag-Jorgensen carbine

I think you are the only person I know that could say that.

I got a smoking deal on a M&P .40. Much more refined than the .45 I got four years ago. Does yours have the rear sight that's cut to enhance one handed reloads?

ADKilla
08-30-2011, 08:26 AM
If 1911 users keep deserting the platform, we may need to set up a government subsidy program to keep some out there.

Then I guess I'll be on welfare after-all

Tamara
08-30-2011, 10:48 AM
Does yours have the rear sight that's cut to enhance one handed reloads?

Yup. I thought that was a pretty sweet touch. It let me know that somebody at Smith is paying attention.

On the other hand, it doesn't have a rainbow-anodized TiNi finish or a gold-inlaid rattlesnake laser-engraved on the slide, nor can it launch .410 buckshot, so maybe S&W isn't as cued into the actual demands of the self-defense pistol market after all...

mnealtx
08-30-2011, 10:52 AM
Well, you could always take it back and get a Judge.... ;P

(I'm going to Hell for that, aren't I?) :D :D :D

JV_
08-30-2011, 10:52 AM
On the other hand, it doesn't have a rainbow-anodized TiNi finish or a gold-inlaid rattlesnake laser-engraved on the slide, nor can it launch .410 buckshot, so maybe S&W isn't as cued into the actual demands of the self-defense pistol market after all...

Do they offer diamond plate?

http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/P220-Diamond-Detail-L.jpg

Tamara
08-30-2011, 10:57 AM
Do they offer diamond plate?
I was a little disappointed at the lack of mother-of-toilet-seat grip panels, too. A security guard around here who looks like Nick Fury with a bad case of likeadonutitis carries a Taurus PT-945 with those, and it's suh-weet!

mnealtx
08-30-2011, 11:29 AM
I was a little disappointed at the lack of mother-of-toilet-seat grip panels, too. A security guard around here who looks like Nick Fury with a bad case of likeadonutitis carries a Taurus PT-945 with those, and it's suh-weet!

Ah, but was it GENUINE mother-of-toilet-seat grip panels, or a cheap knock-off? :D:D:D

Al T.
08-30-2011, 01:25 PM
security guard around here

Beats a High Point in an Uncle Mikes nylon "one size fits none" holster. Seen that one a few times locally. :eek:

The trigger is appreciably better on the latest M&Ps as well.

jetfire
08-30-2011, 01:56 PM
Wait, Sam Jackson Nick Fury or comics Nick Fury?

In all seriousness though, it's a good call. I really do like the factory sights on the M&P over the Glock, and like others have pointed out the aftermarket support for the platform is taking off. I was playing with Randy's gun with the forward setting sear trigger/thing at Steel Challenge, and I really liked it.

jslaker
08-30-2011, 02:04 PM
The trigger is appreciably better on the latest M&Ps as well.

I've been saying the same, though not everyone seems to agree. Mine has a short uptake with a crisp break in the 6# range. The LEM on my USP is far mushier either way.

Tamara, if you're curious, there's a production date code on the blue box the gun comes in. I forget the exact format, but it translates into the calendar week of production in the given year.

JV_
08-30-2011, 02:50 PM
Or you can just look at the date on the fired casing bag, it's probably close to the production date.

jslaker
08-30-2011, 04:38 PM
Or you can just look at the date on the fired casing bag, it's probably close to the production date.

Of course I'd overlook the obvious. :p

jlw
08-30-2011, 06:03 PM
I did a T&E on a .40 model when they first hit the market, and I didn't like the muzzle flip and lack of distinctive reset. I recently wound up with a .45 version and installed an Apex sear. That sear makes all the difference the world. I am still firmly a GLOCK guy, but I wanted a polymer ACP model pistol that fit my hand to use in IDPA.

Wheeler
08-30-2011, 07:45 PM
I did a T&E on a .40 model when they first hit the market, and I didn't like the muzzle flip and lack of distinctive reset. I recently wound up with a .45 version and installed an Apex sear. That sear makes all the difference the world. I am still firmly a GLOCK guy, but I wanted a polymer ACP model pistol that fit my hand to use in IDPA.

did your .45 version have the Apex sear in it when I shot it at our last get-together?

jlw
08-30-2011, 08:03 PM
did your .45 version have the Apex sear in it when I shot it at our last get-together?

Yes.

LtDave
08-30-2011, 09:31 PM
Definitely go with Apex trigger upgrade. Installed a DCAEK and Ram in my 9L and was amazed at the improvement. Under 4 pounds with factory trigger spring. Smooth takeup and positive reset. Better than the Vanek trigger in my G34.

Tamara
09-02-2011, 12:01 PM
Thanks for the tips on the trigger kits!

I've been checking out Apex's page, and I may order from them, but I'm going to run the gun stock for a bit before I go screwing with anything, in order to make sure that the stuff I screw with needed to be screwed. :o

MEH
09-02-2011, 12:16 PM
but I'm going to run the gun stock for a bit before I go screwing with anything, in order to make sure that the stuff I screw with needed to be screwed. :o

Very good plan!

rsa-otc
09-02-2011, 12:17 PM
Tam;

Said the same thing myself 14 months ago when I got my M&P45. Ran it stock for over a year. Having come from a Revolver & TDA auto background I didn't feel the trigger was sub optimal. Got some extra money for my birthday in June and on a who-ha tried the Apex DAEK. It was an eye opening experience. Love the action now. So don't hesitate when you feel the time is right. They don't call them APEX goodies for nothing.

jumpthestack
09-02-2011, 04:35 PM
A M&P with thumb safety and Apex DCAEK is about as close as you can get to the feel of a 1911 within the package of a modern polymer pistol.
I didn't know they made a two-tone M&P. From Googling, apparently Cabela's had a limited run of them, plus a lot of bubbas doing it themselves.

Mjolnir
09-02-2011, 08:40 PM
Maybe it's just me but I prefer the S&W Performance Center sear to the APEX variant. It seems "more crisp" with less take up.

Another thing that makes the M&P very nice is the Massachussetts-compliant trigger return spring. It makes the pistol the functional equivalent of a GLOCK with a NY1 and 4.5 lb connector.

Addendum: With the MA-compliant spring the take up now is weighted (maybe 3.5#) with a trigger pull that doesn't appear to be any different; it's "very carry friendly".

Congrats on the nice kit.

Tamara
09-02-2011, 09:41 PM
It makes the pistol the functional equivalent of a GLOCK with a NY1 and 4.5 lb connector.
Really? 'Cause I always thought that was the hot setup on the Glocks. (It's not the weight I'm so much concerned with as the nature of the break.)

BWT
09-03-2011, 12:26 AM
Really? 'Cause I always thought that was the hot setup on the Glocks. (It's not the weight I'm so much concerned with as the nature of the break.)

Really C'mon, four pages?

Post Pictures.

I mean sure I ask things of others that I won't do myself (I think honestly... you know what though my brother does have youtube videos of me with guns that I say I own, so I guess that's close to proof, lol, he's even taken pictures of my guns...), I just... there's 10,000 things I'd rather do than lay guns out and snap about 10-20 shots.

Sorry for the tangent.

As a former 1911 owner, did you get one with a Thumb Safety?

If so, what did you think?

You know, I may regret this one day, but I saw this sentence and it resonates with me,



I've been checking out Apex's page, and I may order from them, but I'm going to run the gun stock for a bit before I go screwing with anything, in order to make sure that the stuff I screw with needed to be screwed.


I'm thinking... let's project this gun, and when I've got it disassembled past my point of competency I will hate myself for doing so (like when I detail stripped my CBOB to correct the side to side grip safety wiggle, and just loose lackadaisical waggle.), but I'll learn...

I realized without even really trying, I'm halfway towards an M&P9 with a Thumbsafety, a little under half with an Apex DCAEK... I'm wondering if I should just get the M&P9, bone stock, and just gradually change it. My Dad's a lot more well to do than I am, so he bought exactly what I wanted (or close to it... Twice, kinda made buying an M&P anti-climatic), I've wanted an M&P9 with a TS forever, he bought one with an Apex Tactical Sear and USB, with Warren 2-dot Night sights, couldn't wait for them to get the model with thumb safety in stock. You know what, I really wanted the one with a Thumb safety, and the DCAEK comes with the springs (later learned this), and who knows I might try the Ameriglo sights, so he gets that with a twist on it (it's a compact model). I bought an Arsenal SGL 21, he immediately bought one. Maybe it's a sick game, but you'll see here... I was shooting his first before mine (it had to go back to the factory), and you'll see both of the M&P's sitting on the counter, lol, on my brother's video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g93FsuDaji0

A stroll down memory lane, sorry for the tangent.

Tamara
09-03-2011, 06:59 AM
As a former 1911 owner, did you get one with a Thumb Safety?
"Former" 1911 owner? I've got five (well, four and three-quarters* :D ) of the things. Still carrying one, too.

But to answer your question, no, I just got a straight up M&P9, because it was what was on sale**. I wouldn't have minded if it had a thumb safety, but it doesn't bother me that it doesn't. I carried Glocks for years, so it's not like the thought makes me squeamish.


*I have an eternally incomplete Sistema project gun; I installed C&S lockwork and a Dlask trigger and an old Painted Ordnance thumb safety I had lying around, replaced all the pins with new Ed Brown ones, ground the grip safety and frame tangs down to a little nubbin to go with the spurless hammer, and it's languished in the attic ever since. I'll finish it someday. Right after I finish building these AR lowers, I guess.

** "What do you have in that thing?"
"Golden Sabers."
"Oh, do you think that's the best self defense load?"
"No, I think I got a great deal on a couple cases."

Slavex
09-03-2011, 08:16 AM
Holy crap a Dlask trigger? I used to work for him and made thousands of those things. Still got about 20lbs of magnesium shavings from the trigger shoes.

Tamara
09-03-2011, 08:23 AM
Holy crap a Dlask trigger? I used to work for him and made thousands of those things. Still got about 20lbs of magnesium shavings from the trigger shoes.
Yup. Brownells stopped carrying the STI polycarbonate/titanium ones for a while there back around '06 or '07 and the Dlasks were my second favorite. One wound up in that Colt Gunsite CCO I had, too. (And there's a Dlask hammer in my '66 Colt.)

Maybe you made it! :cool:

Al T.
09-03-2011, 09:02 AM
Headed to the range tomorrow AM

So, how did that work out? :)

Tamara
09-03-2011, 09:15 AM
So, how did that work out? :)
One thing and another, I haven't got a chance to get out there yet this week. Not that I feel too badly about that, since it's been beastly hot anyway. :o

I picked up another 350 rounds of 9 minimal from The Mountain of Geese the other day, just in case, and Shootin' Buddy and I have a range date for Monday morning. (He's got a carbine class in the not-too-distant future, and he wants to get some AR manipulations in to avoid any chance of being That Guy. :D )

BWT
09-03-2011, 09:31 AM
"Former" 1911 owner? I've got five (well, four and three-quarters* :D ) of the things. Still carrying one, too.

True, do you plan to start carrying the M&P9?


But to answer your question, no, I just got a straight up M&P9, because it was what was on sale**. I wouldn't have minded if it had a thumb safety, but it doesn't bother me that it doesn't. I carried Glocks for years, so it's not like the thought makes me squeamish.

The one thing that really attracts me about the M&P9 with TS, is you can remove it pretty painlessly. I don't anticipate me removing it, just because I want to carry it, but the option's there. I think with a good holster, a safety isn't required, but after carrying a 1911 for so long, I like having it, and also switching to AIWB carry... It's probably a good idea. Also, never know I might switch to the Apex F.S.S.


*I have an eternally incomplete Sistema project gun; I installed C&S lockwork and a Dlask trigger and an old Painted Ordnance thumb safety I had lying around, replaced all the pins with new Ed Brown ones, ground the grip safety and frame tangs down to a little nubbin to go with the spurless hammer, and it's languished in the attic ever since. I'll finish it someday. Right after I finish building these AR lowers, I guess.[/SIZE

I figure these are supposed to be drop in parts... I say that and then I pause and think "You know... I could get the Apex DCAEK installed for $20 extra by an S&W Armorer before it ships"


** [SIZE=1]"What do you have in that thing?"
"Golden Sabers."
"Oh, do you think that's the best self defense load?"
"No, I think I got a great deal on a couple cases."

The funny thing is what started me on the AK hunt was 7.62x54mm prices (of all things), I was just curious cruising Aim Surplus late at night, and I thought "Wow, you know that's really cheap. Wonder how much 7.62x39 is?"

Then I saw, and then I thought "Well... let's just go look up AK prices, I mean you never know.", and then that kicked it off. 8-10 months later had an AK.

Tamara
09-03-2011, 10:01 AM
True, do you plan to start carrying the M&P9?
Probably, unless I totally suck with it or it blows chunks or something.

But there's a lot of factors involved here.

1) I have enormous "sunk costs" in the 1911 platform. Since I made the commitment to seriously CCW everywhere, that's all I've carried. During that time, I've rarely run more than a magazine or two at a time through any other kind of pistol. The pistol currently in my CCW holster was purchased in like-new condition ten years ago next month. All that wear on the Black-T? I put it there.

2) And then there is the enormous "physical plant" that goes with a CCW gun: As things stand in 1911-land for me right now, I've got the CCW gun, two more-or-less identical backup guns, my CCW holster, my "fat" holster (some women have "fat jeans", I have a "fat holster", go figure...), belt holsters for competition or woods use, a left-handed holster in case my right hand's in a cast or something, probably fifty mags, practically enough spare parts to build another gun, a "blue gun", a rimfire trainer... You can see why I'm not looking forward to the idea of changing guns; it's the enormous logistical train that will also have to change that daunts me.

On the other hand, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm not getting older; a lighter pistol would be nice. Twice in the last two years I've been reduced to a 3" K-frame in a pancake rig for a day or two while waiting for my back to un-knot from having two-and-a-half pounds of steel strapped over a kidney for fifteen hours at a lick.

Further, .45 ammo isn't getting any cheaper, and I'd like to practice more. And I'm not averse to the idea of more BB's in the tank.

And frankly, I think I'll be able to shoot a 9mm popgun better at speed than a big, heavy .45. My wrists just aren't as up to recoil management as they used to be and my splits with a 1911 feel like they're getting to the point where they're just as slow as with a medium-frame DA .38 revolver, and at least with the revolver my trigger finger has something to do while I'm waiting for the front sight to get back on target.

jetfire
09-03-2011, 10:53 AM
One of the things I noticed from shooting a bunch of CDP this year was that I'd get to the point of diminishing returns a lot faster with a 40 ounce 1911 that I do with a G34 or XDM. That's honestly been my favorite thing about switching to 9mm: more practice time, better quality practice time, which means more progress.

Tamara
09-03-2011, 11:04 AM
One of the things I noticed from shooting a bunch of CDP this year was that I'd get to the point of diminishing returns a lot faster with a 40 ounce 1911 that I do with a G34 or XDM. That's honestly been my favorite thing about switching to 9mm: more practice time, better quality practice time, which means more progress.
This. Very much this.

And it makes gun skool harder. By the end of Day Two of AFHF last year, I was hanging on my chinstrap. That's a lot of pistol for my skinny wrists to horse around for that high of a round count for two days in a row, which makes it hard to concentrate on all the fancy larnin' I should be doing.

Comedian
09-03-2011, 03:14 PM
I would switch to the M&P. Life is short. Why not make it easier.

jslaker
09-03-2011, 07:07 PM
RE: APEX parts - if you decide to go that route and happen to hold a C&R, since you collect, Brownell's will sell them to you about $15-20 cheaper than I've seen them elsewhere.

The M&P is only marginally more difficult to detail strip than a Glock, IMO. Biggest pain is that you'll need a roll pin punch to knock out the locking block and the sear assembly. The rest is cake.

I'm definitely in the shoot it some first camp. I like the RAM; didn't see a need to add another $90 to the cost of the gun with a DCAEK for me for carry use, though.

Slavex
09-03-2011, 09:28 PM
If the spot welds on your Dlask trigger bar separate, it wasn't my build!
Re the M&P, my opinion is, swap out the parts now for Apex parts, no point in suffering through the factory ones amy longer than you need to.

jslaker
09-03-2011, 09:40 PM
If the spot welds on your Dlask trigger bar separate, it wasn't my build!
Re the M&P, my opinion is, swap out the parts now for Apex parts, no point in suffering through the factory ones amy longer than you need to.

Honest question: have you shot a relatively recent production gun? Maybe it's me being less discerning than most (combined with years of mediocre HK triggers), but the guns S&W have been putting out lately have triggers I find thoroughly acceptable. Maybe I got lucky. Nowhere near as good as the tuned SIG I had, but certainly good enough to carry.

ToddG
09-03-2011, 10:33 PM
I'd do the RAM instantly. As Rob said, no point suffering needlessly. As for the other Apex stuff, it's certainly not necessary but if (a) you're used to tuned 1911 triggers and (b) you're buying & installing the RAM anyway, it might make sense to do it all at once.

I appreciate the "shoot it before modifying" approach and it does make sense for the first 500 or so rounds to make sure the gun actually works and doesn't need to be sent back to the factory for anything (which is true of any gun from any manufacturer).

jslaker
09-03-2011, 11:27 PM
I'd do the RAM instantly. As Rob said, no point suffering needlessly. As for the other Apex stuff, it's certainly not necessary but if (a) you're used to tuned 1911 triggers and (b) you're buying & installing the RAM anyway, it might make sense to do it all at once.

I appreciate the "shoot it before modifying" approach and it does make sense for the first 500 or so rounds to make sure the gun actually works and doesn't need to be sent back to the factory for anything (which is true of any gun from any manufacturer).

To add a little more context to my earlier comment: at around $15, the RAM was a total no-brainer. The DCAEK being nearly 20% of the cost of the gun required more consideration.

Slavex
09-04-2011, 06:36 AM
3 of my students have newish M&Ps, being in Canada I doubt they are as current as what people are getting in the USA right now. That said, one has great factory trigger the other 2 were so bad both considered returning them. An Apex sear made a massive improvement to both. Other parts are on the way.

Tamara
09-04-2011, 08:38 AM
3 of my students have newish M&Ps, being in Canada I doubt they are as current as what people are getting in the USA right now. That said, one has great factory trigger the other 2 were so bad both considered returning them. An Apex sear made a massive improvement to both. Other parts are on the way.
Well, I mean, it's got a trigger like a plastic pistol, you know? There's a bunch of slack, and then it stops, and then there's a kind of "griiitch-SPOINK!" and the striker goes forward. I know that it's possible to play with spring weights and sear engagement geometry to add or subtract "i's" to the "griiitch", but at the moment, it's honestly not too bad for a striker-fired plastic pistol factory trigger.

Speaking completely subjectively, it breaks cleaner than any factory Glock trigger I can remember, and the takeup, while foreign to me, is completely smooth and unweighted.

(Remember that I'm used to either DA S&W revolver triggers or ~4# thought-controlled "go-buttons", and this trigger will never be either...)

GJM
09-04-2011, 08:51 AM
(Remember that I'm used to either DA S&W revolver triggers or ~4# thought-controlled "go-buttons", and this trigger will never be either...)

The Apex FSS trigger on my M&P Pro is simply amazing, and I bet, would meet your go button definition. Right now, I have an M&P 45 mid-size, and full size 9, both with thumb safeties, at Apex to have an FSS trigger installed, and plan to use them both as carry guns.

jlw
09-04-2011, 09:11 AM
To add a little more context to my earlier comment: at around $15, the RAM was a total no-brainer. The DCAEK being nearly 20% of the cost of the gun required more consideration.

I've shot one with the full kit, and I have shot one with just the sear. I actually preferred the trigger on the one with just the sear although the one with the full kit had a slightly more positive reset.

ToddG
09-04-2011, 10:06 AM
Speaking completely subjectively, it breaks cleaner than any factory Glock trigger I can remember, and the takeup, while foreign to me, is completely smooth and unweighted.

Even with my early production M&Ps ('07 and '08 manufacture), reset notwithstanding the trigger pull was much cleaner than a stock Glock.

JDM
09-04-2011, 10:37 AM
Am I the only one who thinks older production M&Ps have better triggers?

I have a .357 from 2008 with a marvelous trigger-smooth smooth take-up, and a nice clean break. Right out of the box even.

Both new (10-11) 9mm guns I have were/are gritty and had an almost glockish sear release. My training 9mm is only now approaching the .357 in terms of trigger pull, and it's probably had 5000 through it now. The gun I carry is shot far less, and still has that "rake through pea gravel" take up.

Tamara
09-04-2011, 10:42 AM
The Apex FSS trigger on my M&P Pro is simply amazing, and I bet, would meet your go button definition.
There is not a thing you can do to this trigger to give it five or six hundredths of takeup and four hundredths of overtravel.

Tamara
09-04-2011, 11:54 AM
I think that's why Randy went with a different trigger.
Well hush mah mouf. :o

Of course, I'm actually kind of looking forward to a trigger with some takeup. I've griped elsewhere that my trigger finger just isn't fine-tuned enough to do a proper press-out with a 1911 loaded up with dialed-in C&S lockwork.

Kyle Reese
09-04-2011, 11:56 AM
I've had the chance to play with the FSS trigger on an M&P 9L (albeit via dry fire only) and it felt almost as nice as a tuned 1911 trigger. There is no comparison between the "feel" of the FSS and DCAEK, IMHO.

Savage Hands
09-04-2011, 10:43 PM
If you want a 1911 trigger go with the FSS but if you want one of the best duty rated triggers for a polymer gun then go with the dcaek and ram. DocGKR highly recommends them for carry and duty use, plus they are approved for over a dozen departments nationwide. The materials and quality control of Apex's tool steel edm parts are on par with anything made for a custom 1911.

Tamara
09-06-2011, 07:45 AM
Finally got it to the range yesterday morning; 170 rounds, no malfs.

It is going to be hard getting re-used to that kind of trigger at any sort of speed. Any time I tried to pick up the pace, what I used to call "New Glock-itis" reared its ugly head:

SCENE: Interior of gun store in the early '90s.

Customer: "This Glock keeps shooting low and left."

Me: "The gun's fine."

Customer: "Honey, ah've been shooting pistols longer'n you been alive."

Me: "Yes, but you're used to either single-action triggers with very little travel or double-action triggers that are fairly evenly-weighted through the entire length of their pull. The Glock's trigger is kinda proprietary-feeling and can take a while to get used to. Press it like it's a 1911 trigger with way too damn much takeup."

Now, of course, half every trigger on the market feels like that and I'm the fossil who's shot nothing but 1911s and DA revolvers for years. I see lots and lots of dry-fire in my immediate future.

rsa-otc
09-06-2011, 01:48 PM
I have the same problem. Dedicated most of my spring trigger time to my S&W 686 SSR gun since I was shooting SSR in the NJ IDPA Championships in June. Now that I've moved back to my M&P 45 CDP gun and have installed the APEX sear in it my groups are now slightly left at speed. Frustrating as hell when you can mow down 8" plates at 10 yards with your revolver without thinking. Move to the auto and you have to slow down and think about it to get hits.

Now that I've moved my daughter back to college and cleared all her college stuff/crap out of my dedicated dryfire area, I foresee lots of time spent in dry-firing.

Comedian
09-06-2011, 08:19 PM
Finally got it to the range yesterday morning; 170 rounds, no malfs.

It is going to be hard getting re-used to that kind of trigger at any sort of speed. Any time I tried to pick up the pace, what I used to call "New Glock-itis" reared its ugly head:

SCENE: Interior of gun store in the early '90s.

Customer: "This Glock keeps shooting low and left."

Me: "The gun's fine."

Customer: "Honey, ah've been shooting pistols longer'n you been alive."

Me: "Yes, but you're used to either single-action triggers with very little travel or double-action triggers that are fairly evenly-weighted through the entire length of their pull. The Glock's trigger is kinda proprietary-feeling and can take a while to get used to. Press it like it's a 1911 trigger with way too damn much takeup."

Now, of course, half every trigger on the market feels like that and I'm the fossil who's shot nothing but 1911s and DA revolvers for years. I see lots and lots of dry-fire in my immediate future.

I greatly prefer the reset on a Glock over an M&P. Much more distinct.

DocGKR
09-07-2011, 02:36 AM
I have grown to strongly prefer the M&P trigger over the Glock. The lack of tactile reset on M&P's bothers some folks, but has turned out not to be a big deal for me. There is a good interview with Rob Leatham where he discusses trigger reset and its irrelevance when shooting at speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqhSSiU_j8. If authorized, the M&P trigger's can be made quite good via Apex parts or trigger jobs by folks like Bowie. If not currently approved, work on your range staff to research and approve Apex Duty parts--lots of agencies have done so.

orionz06
09-07-2011, 06:55 AM
I have grown to strongly prefer the M&P trigger over the Glock. The lack of tactile reset on M&P's bothers some folks, but has turned out not to be a big deal for me. There is a good interview with Rob Leatham where he discusses trigger reset and its irrelevance when shooting at speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqhSSiU_j8. If authorized, the M&P trigger's can be made quite good via Apex parts or trigger jobs by folks like Bowie. If not currently approved, work on your range staff to research and approve Apex Duty parts--lots of agencies have done so.

I am unsure if this is the same with all guns, but the large plunger sear housing block has considerably better reset on my older gun with all new trigger parts.

Savage Hands
09-07-2011, 01:06 PM
I am unsure if this is the same with all guns, but the large plunger sear housing block has considerably better reset on my older gun with all new trigger parts.


That does help as well.

LittleLebowski
09-07-2011, 01:10 PM
RAM. Do it. The masses are chanting.

Savage Hands
09-07-2011, 01:13 PM
You can see the installation and tell somewhat of a before and after difference on this video of the RAM being installed on my gun from my buddy.

http://thepackingrat.net/2010/11/02/apex-tactical-specialties-ram-2/

Tamara
09-07-2011, 07:48 PM
RAM. Do it. The masses are chanting.
Yes, that reset is indeed buck wretched. Even as I type this, there's a RAM in the back of a truck somewhere between Montezuma, IA and Hoosieropolis, IN. :o

JRas
09-07-2011, 08:33 PM
I prefer the M&P trigger to the glock as well. I did shoot the M&P Pro though

Tamara
09-10-2011, 07:45 AM
I prefer the M&P trigger to the glock as well. I did shoot the M&P Pro though
I like the way it breaks, but discovered during the range session that the reset, which felt merely "meh" in all that dry-fire, was hopelessly vague in actual use. Hence the RAM sitting on my desk and waiting for me to take it to the 'smith.

jar
09-10-2011, 07:21 PM
You really don't need a gunsmith to install the RAM. It's drop in and the disassembly required is pretty straightforward. If you can do anything that involves taking the sideplate off a wheelgun, the ram is easy.

DocGKR
09-10-2011, 07:35 PM
RAM is no more than a 3 minute install that can be done with just a punch and drifting one pin...

Savage Hands
09-10-2011, 08:42 PM
The video I posted on the last page shows how to install it.

Tamara
09-10-2011, 08:52 PM
RAM is no more than a 3 minute install that can be done with just a punch and drifting one pin...
Not that I'm lazy, or anything*, but since my vacations are spent hanging out in the gunsmithing shop of the Type 07 where I used to work, it's just easier for me to make a sad face and say "Hey, can y'all install this?"



*I'm really lazy...

TR675
09-12-2011, 12:55 PM
You'll like the RAM.

Without it, the trigger is very useable, but when shooting fast-like I would sometimes miss the reset point and "short stroke" the trigger. Not anymore.

The DCAEK kit is pretty nice too but there's a bit more involved when installing it.

Tamara
09-15-2011, 11:35 PM
Got the RAM installed, and y'all weren't lying about the improvement to the reset. It made all the difference in the world in being able to control the trigger at anything more than a snail's pace.

Gun still malfunction-free at 370 337 rounds. Very pleased so far. After all that time with the 1911, it feels like you can shoot this thing for an hour between reloads, and it's light enough that I thought my holster was empty once.

Now I'm going to try benching it @ 25 tomorrow to see if my DUF-prefix gun is one of the borked units.

I sure am glad that I put my finicky Coal Creek Armory 1911* to the side for one of these newfangled drama-free plastic guns! ;)



*My CCA 1911 came out of the FedEx box on Friday afternoon and was taken to AFHF the next morning without so much as a field-strip in between. It ran fine. :D

BrianG703
10-17-2011, 01:45 PM
Any bench test results to share?

Tamara
10-17-2011, 02:16 PM
Any bench test results to share?

Still haven't shot it off a bench yet, nor much over about fifteen yards.

We are, however, over 1600 rounds with no cleaning and no malfs.

JDM
10-17-2011, 02:18 PM
Still haven't shot it off a bench yet, nor much over about fifteen yards.

We are, however, over 1600 rounds with no cleaning and no malfs.

How you like it?

Tamara
10-17-2011, 06:50 PM
How you like it?
I like it okay. I mean, it's hard to get too spun up about going from carrying a $2k+ hand-built custom to a generic plastic 9mm bullet hose, but for what it is, it seems to work okay.

It runs; the bullets go where I point it (even more so, the more I get used to it); and I do like the whole "load it on Sunday and shoot it all week" feature, because it makes magazine management at gun skool so much easier.

Tamara
07-08-2012, 06:52 AM
Still haven't shot it off a bench yet, nor much over about fifteen yards.

Finally got around to benching it @ 25yds.

Now, I'm not that great of a shot, and yesterday was not my best day at the range: It was hot, I was cranky, I could feel the pistol torque in my sweaty hands on every shot, and the three cans of Mello Yello Zero, two cups of coffee, and the medium Pibb Extra I got at the bagel joint on the way to the range surely didn't help, but off the bench I was expecting better results than a random, even distribution of twenty holes that could be covered with an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper.

I'll own six... heck, eight inches of that, but the vertical dispersal is a little extreme.

I'm going to try to get out to the club range on Monday morning, which promises to be much cooler and drier, and do it again, this time with the G19 as a control (I would have done the Glock yesterday, but the range I was at won't let you re-holster a loaded gun, and I didn't really feel like having to gas up my heater in the car on the way home.)

GJM
07-08-2012, 11:14 AM
In the beginning, before I realized how poorly most every M&P 9 shoots at 25 yards, I would shoot a P30, G17 and even a G26 immediately after getting the kind of pattern you did with my M&P 9's, to be certain it wasn't me. After doing that a few times, and getting 2-4 inch groups at 25 with the control pistols, and a pattern spread across the target with the M&P's, I figured out it wasn't me.

MEH
07-08-2012, 11:41 AM
For the longest time I thought it was me. I bought a used G17 Gen4 and immediately shot a 1 7/8" group at 25 yards with the Glock. It wasn't me. Sadly, yesterday I ... sold my M&P's. (With full disclosure by the way.)

ubervic
07-08-2012, 05:33 PM
In the beginning, before I realized how poorly most every M&P 9 shoots at 25 yards, I would shoot a P30, G17 and even a G26 immediately after getting the kind of pattern you did with my M&P 9's, to be certain it wasn't me. After doing that a few times, and getting 2-4 inch groups at 25 with the control pistols, and a pattern spread across the target with the M&P's, I figured out it wasn't me.

Weird, as I'm easily shooting my tightest groups with my new (to me) M&P9FS. Bought it used with Trijicon sights and RAM installed. Shoots more softly than the P2000sk and P30 I had been running. Points more naturally, and if feels good/great in hand.

GJM
07-08-2012, 06:08 PM
Have you shot groups with it at 25 yards, and with several types of ammo? If you have, and it shoots a number of loads under 4 inches, to about the same point of impact, you should be very pleased (and probably buy a lottery ticket too, as you are very lucky).

BWT
07-09-2012, 09:41 PM
I shot my Dad's M&P9 over this last week with Warren Tactical Sights and an Apex DCAEK, it was fairly accurate for me.

The front sight post fell off of his M&P9 Compact, but, I remember it grouping somewhat accurately (he was having sight drift issues... and then they just decided to fall off)

I think the Full Size was his most accurate gun.

Wes Peart
07-09-2012, 10:09 PM
We used 9mm M&P's at the academy, they sucked big time. Not just for me, but for many others in the class. One of my favorite malfunctions that I experienced personally was when you did a speed reload about half the time the slide would release without hitting the slide release. Normally this wouldn't bother me much but in this gun's case EVERY time this occurred it resulted in a FTF. 2 or 3 others out of around 50 shooters experienced the same problem. Accuracy sucked, at the 25 yard qual on B21E targets it took everything I had to keep (barely) rounds inside the 5 point "bottle". Switched guns with the guy next to me and shot a nice 3-4'' group at the same distance. It wasn't an unusual sight to look down the line and see people trying to clear FTF's. These guns didn't lack for maintenance either. All that put me off of them, but I'm glad to see they are working great for a lot of people.

Tamara
07-09-2012, 11:15 PM
It wasn't an unusual sight to look down the line and see people trying to clear FTF's. These guns didn't lack for maintenance either. All that put me off of them, but I'm glad to see they are working great for a lot of people.

Huh. Complaints about accuracy out past 10-15 yards you hear all the time, but you don't often hear beefs with reliability.

FWIW, mine auto-forwards, too, if you jack a full mag in there with any force, but so did all my Glock 23's (and my Glock 29 if you used a G20 mag...) It hasn't caused any malfs for me.

jslaker
07-09-2012, 11:55 PM
FWIW, mine auto-forwards, too, if you jack a full mag in there with any force, but so did all my Glock 23's (and my Glock 29 if you used a G20 mag...) It hasn't caused any malfs for me.

Hell, I can make mine auto-forward with no mag and a sharp enough slap on the butt of the gun. Never bothered me since I came from shooting a USP and breathing on the slide release of that thing would send the slide home.

If anything, I have more issues with the once in a blue moon when I don't quite preload the release enough and it takes me about a quarter of a second to process it and apply a little bit of extra pressure to release it.

Comedian
07-10-2012, 05:34 AM
My P30's would auto forward almost every time i inserted a mag. Never caused a malf though. My Glock's never auto forwarded.

Up1911Fan
07-10-2012, 12:48 PM
Happens with my M&P9 about 25% of the time, never caused a malfunction. I view it as taking an additional step off the reload, never bothered me.