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orionz06
08-29-2011, 05:41 PM
I have been working with 2 P-F.com members to work up an AIWB holster design, both of which have given me some pretty decent input.

Is there any feature out there not seen in an AWIB holster that people would like to see? I am close to an AIWB design that I think could be useful from AIWB out to 2:00 or so, IWB, and maintain some usefulness OWB as well. Thoughts?

JM Campbell
08-29-2011, 06:44 PM
I'm one of the guilty parties, I was looking for something that would be easy off/on and a little more slim lined.

I'm 6'2 255lbs with a 40" waist, I have been running a Shaggy for a P30LS. My only complaint for "me" has been since I'm a little rotund then some, the mounting hardware always printed and looked like a old school block pager attached to my belt. No one has ever asked about the bulge but to rest my own mind I wanted to see if there was something else. I tried the kydex loop and pull dot loops with the Shaggy and still did not find what I was looking for. In no way do I hate or dislike or much less discourage the use of the Shaggy design, just us bigger guys don't have shirts that hang the same as you gastly slim blow around in the wind guys :p

So I ordered a new holster from Tom and requested a IWB/OWB convertible holster that I could then play with and modify to work for me. I threw a few styles of retainers on it and modified them to suit me.

Here are a few pics of how I carry it now and got away from the block print on the belt line.

Belt: Jones Tactical EDC Cobra Belt
Gun: HK P30

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll296/jcam54/1314659563.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll296/jcam54/1314659565.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll296/jcam54/1314659570.jpg

joshs
08-29-2011, 07:45 PM
These are features I find useful for an AIWB holster. They are in not particular order.

-A wide, solid belt loop, this keeps the holster stable and oriented in exactly the same way for every draw (a pair of snap loops work almost as well as the solid loop);
-As little material under the muzzle as possible;
-Some method of pulling the grip inwards;
-Enough ride height, and no more, to allow for a full grip while the pistol is in the holster, this is a little tricky as finger size will alter how much height is needed;
-An abbreviated shirt guard that does not interfere with getting a full firing grip and allows the pistol to be placed backwards in the holster for WHO manipulations; and
-Some type of backing to prevent heat transfer with a really hot pistol.

YVK
08-29-2011, 08:18 PM
These are features I find useful for an AIWB holster. They are in not particular order.

-A wide, solid belt loop, this keeps the holster stable and oriented in exactly the same way for every draw (a pair of snap loops work almost as well as the solid loop);
-As little material under the muzzle as possible;
-Some method of pulling the grip inwards;
-Enough ride height, and no more, to allow for a full grip while the pistol is in the holster, this is a little tricky as finger size will alter how much height is needed;
-An abbreviated shirt guard that does not interfere with getting a full firing grip and allows the pistol to be placed backwards in the holster for WHO manipulations; and
-Some type of backing to prevent heat transfer with a really hot pistol.

All of the above is a very good summary; what I put in bold I think is of utmost importance. I think the biggest difference between dedicated AIWB rigs and just a straight drop holster is the ability to tuck in the grip. As far as the height ride, I think that the first maker who'd come up with user-adjustable height for AIWB will take a lot of market share.

orionz06
08-29-2011, 08:20 PM
All of the above is a very good summary; what I put in bold I think is of utmost importance. I think the biggest difference between dedicated AIWB rigs and just a straight drop holster is the ability to tuck in the grip. As far as the height ride, I think that the first maker who'd come up with user-adjustable height for AIWB will take a lot of market share.

I think I have some of that with what Skyline has, and ironically it started more as an OWB that has less meat on it with hopes of moving closer to the centerline.

But adjustable height is desirable, not a problem.

YVK
08-29-2011, 08:41 PM
But adjustable height is desirable, not a problem.

I have owned three AIWB holsters; currently have two. The one that I don't own was returned to the maker [i.e. lost business for him] because of height ride and inability to fix it.
Of two that remain, one had to have ride adjusted after I put CT laser grips on that pistol. Just few mm of plastic on frontstrap were enough to affect the draw. Luckily, the design allowed for height adjustment, albeit not user-adjustable.
Then there is an aspect of "pant-dependency" with AIWB that quite a few people notice. Slight change of how belt loops are sewn into the waist line can affect things. I really think that adjustable height has got to be a part of design; if not, I'd err on the side of higher ride, especially with bigger guns.

P.S. While pics may not always reflect actual state of things, the one above to me looks like too low of a height ride.

JohnN
08-29-2011, 11:13 PM
There is a very fine line between being too high and canting the butt of the pistol outward and too low and not being able to get the correct grip on the gun. Some folks don't mind flipping the gun up into a correct firing grip with their fingers but personally I would rather that happen while the pistol is still in the holster. Drawing from concealment has enough issues without adding the difficulty of not being able to attain a full grip on the gun.

So, adjustable height as well as some way to push the butt of the gun into the body IMHO are among the most important attributes.

JM Campbell
08-30-2011, 12:33 AM
P.S. While pics may not always reflect actual state of things, the one above to me looks like too low of a height ride.

Correct, those where taken while adjusting, it now sits higher where for me gives a great grip. As I also said before this is my modding of a OWB/IWB convertible holster to suit my needs. If Tom can tweak it and make it better I'll be the first in line to buy another one and make my original a dedicated OWB holster to ride closer to the center line like it was originally designed.

l8apex
08-30-2011, 01:03 AM
@skyline1

Do you have photos of the shaggy and the P30LS? Curious as I have one on order. Also, where did get the curent one pictured and does it fit the P30L? Thanks.

JeffJ
08-30-2011, 08:35 AM
I'm currently carrying a G34 in a shaggy and am very happy with it. I'd love to see something as comfortable and concealable that's also tuckable. I have some ideas on this and may play around with it myself although I am not and don't want to be a holstermaker.

A feature that's important to me is a wide belt loop that I can change out myself. I'll make a loop that matches my belt or one that splits a belt loop if necessary and I like the ability to do that.

JM Campbell
08-30-2011, 08:49 AM
I8apex, PM inbound.

The above holster was made for a P30, not a P30LS. I believe the only holster options for a P30LS at this point (without a open bottom for the muzzle to sit about 1/2" to 3/4" past the holster) is the special order option on the CCC Shaggy and BladeTech. There are a few for competition, but not suited for concealed carry IMO. P30LS guys are pretty limited due to the small number of them in the States and the cost/profit margin to produce much less as far as I know and searched for there aren't any blue guns of the P30LS. Your only other option is to get a P30LS to a holster maker and let them work some magic.

LittleLebowski
08-30-2011, 09:01 AM
I'm currently carrying a G34 in a shaggy and am very happy with it. I'd love to see something as comfortable and concealable that's also tuckable. I have some ideas on this and may play around with it myself although I am not and don't want to be a holstermaker.

A feature that's important to me is a wide belt loop that I can change out myself. I'll make a loop that matches my belt or one that splits a belt loop if necessary and I like the ability to do that.

This. Also, I know it's trivial but brown loops are a nice option to have. The holster needs to push the butt of the pistol inwards.

orionz06
08-30-2011, 11:10 AM
This. Also, I know it's trivial but brown loops are a nice option to have. The holster needs to push the butt of the pistol inwards.

Like chocolate?

129

LittleLebowski
08-30-2011, 11:13 AM
That would be a start, yes. I use a lighter color of brown for a belt.

orionz06
08-30-2011, 11:20 AM
So the features desired:


Adjustable height
Some means to control the grip
Minimal material
Functional with the firearm backwards for WHO manipulations
Stable belt mounting
Choice of color
Tuckable
Heat control


The WHO was a consideration I have not made this far. The rest listed, and more are what I had at some stage or another.

I think what Skyline has now covers 6 of the points with room for improvement on some.

LittleLebowski
08-30-2011, 11:22 AM
I'm not sure that being able to reverse the pistol is a design goal worth pursuing.

orionz06
08-30-2011, 11:23 AM
I'm not sure that being able to reverse the pistol is a design goal worth pursuing.

I think it will either happen or it won't for some guns. I do think I might be able to tweak things a bit to make it happen without impacting the rest.

ToddG
08-30-2011, 11:29 AM
I'm not sure that being able to reverse the pistol is a design goal worth pursuing.

Being able to bucket the gun and have it reasonably secure while reloading or clearing a malfunction WHO is one of the nicest advantages of a (properly designed) aiwb holster. Variants that prevent those techniques tend to use shirt guards that cover the top of the slide which provides no real benefit that I can see.

I wouldn't use an appendix holster that lacked the WHO capability.

Isaac
08-30-2011, 12:32 PM
I like double loops vs one, in case I want to ride the belt loop.

MDS
08-30-2011, 09:48 PM
I'd like one that comes with a Gadget.


... I can sense wheels turning in Tom's head ...

texag
08-30-2011, 11:34 PM
I know we've been conversing back and forth on this for awhile, but I just wanted to add some comments.

Convertibility to OWB would be absolutely dead last on my list of criteria for an AIWB holster. If I'm carrying OWB it usually means I'm going to want my WML. They ideal way to attach an AIWB holster to the belt doesn't really lend itself to a design that works well OWB either, IMO.

You had the ride height correct on the holster I used, the only (minor) issue was keeping the grip tucked into my body. I think this will be the most difficult to tackle because what's ideal for me would pull the grip in too much for someone larger, and vice versa. As is I was still able to comfortably conceal a P30 with the majority of my wardrobe. This wouldn't have been possible carrying at 3-4:00.

JDM
11-07-2011, 12:25 AM
Closed bottom holster. After a few magazines, the muzzle end is hot, and the region where that part of the gun ends up isn't exactly heat resistant.

I'm sure others have mentioned this, but modularity is good. If I break a belt loop, I want to buy an 8 dollar belt loop, not an 80 dollar holster.

Design the holster so that the gun tucks into the abdomen.
Design the holster so that a full grip is possible without dragging the knuckles on the waistband.

I realize the last two are subjective and based on body type, but I believe there is a bottom line that everyone can agree with.

orionz06
03-14-2012, 11:27 PM
Thread necro...

On guns like the P30 and PPQ with the mag release, is it commonly accepted to lose the ability to work it while holstered?


*I do not have a PPQ or PPQ blue gun*

zml342
03-15-2012, 06:26 AM
Thread necro...

On guns like the P30 and PPQ with the mag release, is it commonly accepted to lose the ability to work it while holstered?


Typically if I need to access my mag while holstered I will pull the gun out about a half inch, use the mag release, and then seat the gun back in the holster. I have heard of other people that will take a dremel to that area of the holster so they can have better access to the mag release (I can't remember where I read that so take it with a grain of salt).

joshs
03-15-2012, 06:29 AM
On guns like the P30 and PPQ with the mag release, is it commonly accepted to lose the ability to work it while holstered? [/I]

Yes.

TCinVA
03-15-2012, 07:20 AM
Thread necro...

On guns like the P30 and PPQ with the mag release, is it commonly accepted to lose the ability to work it while holstered?


*I do not have a PPQ or PPQ blue gun*

In my "shaggy" I have to pull the pistol up out of the holster slightly to manipulate the mag release. It doesn't trouble me to have to do it.

orionz06
03-15-2012, 08:11 AM
Typically if I need to access my mag while holstered I will pull the gun out about a half inch, use the mag release, and then seat the gun back in the holster. I have heard of other people that will take a dremel to that area of the holster so they can have better access to the mag release (I can't remember where I read that so take it with a grain of salt).


Yes.


In my "shaggy" I have to pull the pistol up out of the holster slightly to manipulate the mag release. It doesn't trouble me to have to do it.

Thanks for the info guys, and everyone for that matter. I hope to have something useful soon.

texag
03-28-2012, 08:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpRhKNpXvi0

I've been using some of the holsters made by Orion for awhile now and made a quick vid reviewing them. Sorry for all the ahhs, umms, and "awesome"s, I just jumped in without a script.

ETA: Hopefully youtube will decide to apply my edits and rotate the vid soon.

JM Campbell
03-28-2012, 10:37 PM
Thanks for the vid...I need one.

orionz06
03-28-2012, 11:09 PM
Still have a short time frame left for some live fire but that can hopefully happen after Texag takes AFHF April 14-15.

Highlights:


3 ride heights
15 loop positions
Adjustable wedge
Forward and reverse cant
Snap loops, closed soft loops, or kydex tunnel available



The most exciting thing, for me, was being able to make it work for him with the Crimson Trace CMR-201 attached. The P30 is not a small gun and he is a little dude, this current sample of one is pretty good though.

jmjames
03-28-2012, 11:19 PM
That sounds REALLY good! After my very positive experience with the other holster from you, if I ever went to AIWB (I want to give myself a few years of CC experience first) I'd be interested in one.

J.Ja

ToddG
03-29-2012, 08:48 AM
Looking forward to seeing it next month in College Station.

mchasal
03-29-2012, 09:03 AM
Color me interested, when's the preorder start? ;)

TCz
03-29-2012, 09:12 AM
Looking forward to seeing it next month in College Station.

Me too. I'm looking to replace my current prototype with the next one, so it'll be nice to compare notes.

orionz06
03-29-2012, 11:56 AM
Color me interested, when's the preorder start? ;)


I think my plan will be to make them and sell them, nix the thought of taking orders and instead make what I feel is in demand. At least at first, this works for Texag but given that these holsters in particular are so personal it might end up sucking for everyone else.

JM Campbell
03-29-2012, 12:20 PM
M&P9fs please ;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

bdcheung
03-29-2012, 12:40 PM
M&P9fs please ;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

+1. I can always chop it down for the 9c.

VolGrad
03-29-2012, 01:10 PM
+1. I can always chop it down for the 9c.

Already asked for the M&P9c. :cool:

texag
04-01-2012, 05:43 PM
Did some limited live fire with the new holster due to time constraints:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAOBKpuTshk

Apologies for the expletive during the reload, I dropped the first shot.

Impressions are pretty much the same as from dryfire. Retention is good without being excessive, comfort is great, concealment is great. Now if only I was as awesome.

texag
04-01-2012, 05:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZinZ3-3tE5Q

Shot this one clean, just really freaking slow.