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GardoneVT
05-27-2015, 03:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HfVscJ_egw

Thoughts?

BehindBlueI's
05-27-2015, 03:34 PM
I watched about the first minute. 1:08, actually.

Pass. I don't need to watch movies to know what its like to be a cop, and if you do then you have no idea.

There are a ton of places to be a cop. There are some universal truths to police work and there are some that will be region and agency specific. In the end, this is the best sucky job on the planet. The lows are terrible. The highs are fantastic. You need some self awareness and some support systems to survive it, but it can be done and many do it quite successfully.

I will tell you from my own experiences there are things that still suck to remember. A child shot in the neck. Begging my car to go faster and you idiots to get out of my way so I can get to a kid floating face down in a pool. Burying a friend. Burying a beat partner. The times you were too late. The person who hung themselves anyway. They suck.

It's awesome, too, though. I just had a guy plead to 30 years today. That's a guy who won't be robbing fast food joints for awhile. I was instrumental in making that happen, and what I do daily matters. I got a thank you card from a woman shot in the chest on Mother's Day years ago to thank us for catching the shooter. I've had a random patron pay for my table's meal at BW3s when I was in uniform. It's not thankless. It's only thankless in the media.

More later, I got a run, but I don't give two sideways farts what this guy thinks being a cop is like.

KeeFus
05-27-2015, 03:36 PM
I am not a Yeager fan...at all. However, he states some truth in this particular video. I have been investigated through IA and criminally (in-custody death & OIS) politically maligned, written tickets/arrested the wrong folks (including LEO's)...and been ostracized for it, been a political pawn because I wrote the Chiefs buddy a ticket. I could go on and on. I survived thus far...23 years in retirement at this point. There are going to be landmines. You just have to be smart enough to avoid them. Not saying you have to kiss an ass to do it either. I have paid the price for not being a management tool and I can go home and sleep fairly well knowing that. A few years ago nyeti posted what I have in my sig line over on LF. It rings truer everyday I get closer to retirement. I have seen guys be up an admin persons ass so far they could taste their lunch. I have seen those same dudes fall out of favor and out of law enforcement to go work security at Target. I will never hold an upper level management position. I'm good with that. My guys know where I stand and they appreciate it. That's good enough for me.

As far as warriors not getting jobs, he's wrong. Dead nuts wrong. And there are 'warriors' on the street that have never seen a combat zone. Firearms instructors here don't just rubber stamp anyone...maybe in TN(?). The physical standards we are mandated to pass in BLET are the same for male/female. The last 2 true rookies we hired were both terminated within a year. We just hired 3 more so we will see if they shake out but if they don't their ass will be gone too.

There is a lot more to it than what this guy postulates. When I was in BLET one of our instructors stated that law enforcement is on a pendulum. It swings back and forth over time and if we stayed in it long enough we would see it both ways. His statement rings true now because when I started it was fun...now, not so much.

Law enforcement is a thankless job. It can be tough. It can also be great. Depends on what you are willing to put in to it.

olstyn
05-27-2015, 03:51 PM
I'm not in love with some of the ways he says things, but if you can get past that, he's really just saying the same things that nyeti always does on that subject. "You're just a hanger for that uniform," etc. (I'm not a cop, and every time I even *think* about the idea, nyeti's posts remind me that it's a bad idea, for me, at least. Thanks, nyeti!)

GardoneVT
05-27-2015, 04:21 PM
Perhaps my question misses the point (my motivations for an LE position have no connection to Yeager) , but how does someone like him get hired 4 times without political connections of his own?I was under the impression one termination from LE was a career ender, and in non-uniformed careers being sacked three times would be a red flag.

I also dont buy the claim he has no adverse paperwork. Ive seen guys get canned from the military pretty fast, but even in those cases there was a pattern of bad behavior before The Last Straw.

JodyH
05-27-2015, 04:49 PM
I think Yeager was elected a couple of times.

TR675
05-27-2015, 04:50 PM
Problem cops often get bounced around from dept. to dept., at least in smaller jurisdictions.

BehindBlueI's
05-27-2015, 06:54 PM
Perhaps my question misses the point (my motivations for an LE position have no connection to Yeager) , but how does someone like him get hired 4 times without political connections of his own?I was under the impression one termination from LE was a career ender, and in non-uniformed careers being sacked three times would be a red flag.

I also dont buy the claim he has no adverse paperwork. Ive seen guys get canned from the military pretty fast, but even in those cases there was a pattern of bad behavior before The Last Straw.


Problem cops often get bounced around from dept. to dept., at least in smaller jurisdictions.

This. There are a multitude of tiny departments that rely on Reserve (unpaid) officers and who aren't real picky about who they hire. If you are already certified and will save them some cash, they are the "second chance" department for many people who stepped on their crank at their paid job.

HopetonBrown
05-27-2015, 07:42 PM
I try not to think about Yeager.

Dagga Boy
05-27-2015, 08:05 PM
I'm not in love with some of the ways he says things, but if you can get past that, he's really just saying the same things that nyeti always does on that subject. "You're just a hanger for that uniform," etc. (I'm not a cop, and every time I even *think* about the idea, nyeti's posts remind me that it's a bad idea, for me, at least. Thanks, nyeti!)

The difference is that nyeti was actually a cop for almost 20 years in an environment that Yeager is basing on movies (and wanted to do 30, but I got hurt and was forced out kicking and screaming...not fired). Personally, I don't think Yeager would have made probation at a large squared away agency for him to even comment. He was a "Chief" of a one man department in a town of less than 600 people. We often worked party calls with more people. The hard part is figuring out how to function as a cop. It is not about shooting, what holster you are using, or anything most folks on these forums relate to. It is not having a good cry when a crack whore puts her baby in a microwave. It is trying to figure out how child protective services can give a baby back to heroin addicted parents living in a car with needles everywhere and the baby is drinking milk from a bottle so rotten it looks like cottage cheese. Watching mans inhumanity towards man daily. Dealing with some of the sickest people you could imagine regularly. You need to learn to deal,with the internal backstabbing that goes on, not watching movies about it. The back stabbing goes on because unlike any other business there are no stratus's that are present elsewhere. Cops are pretty much the same educationally, morally, backgrounds, etc. The only way to climb is over the backs of folks just like you. Some are cut out for being climbers,some the back, and some (like me) who just dropped out of the process and found happiness on the street and not in the station. A lot of this is simply about being a professional. That is the problem, many in LE are not. There is a massive shortage of leadership and only supervision and micro-management. There is a massive lack of people driven by working to be a nobel profession and treating it like a profession rather than a job.
Here is the truth. A ton of people in cop work shouldn't be. A ton of people running police departments shouldn't be. A vast majority of the politicians who are the communities elected leaders who are tasked with providing police services have no business in that endeavor. Being a cop is an awesome thing. This is especially true if you can figure out how to do it right. As Pat Rogers says "you may love the job, but the job does not love you". That is simply an understanding that takes time to work through. I was lucky that Pete Ambriz (RIP stud), my second FTO got that through my skull early so it wasn't a surprise and I was aware of it.

Nothing wrong with being a cop. The key is to be a cop in a place that wants the policing you want to do. I was very picky. Some don't have the background to be picky and match the agency to your goals. That is a lot of the issue.

Oh yea.....I only made it to 1.28, so I may not have the whole grasp of what his "expert opinion" is.

Kyle Reese
05-27-2015, 08:05 PM
What he said about agencies not hiring vets until they've been home for 3 years is balderdash.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

EM_
05-27-2015, 08:23 PM
Most of my issue with this dingbat speaking on a subject I have lived comes from the ability to smell bullshit. When you work in the hard places long enough you can quickly tell if a guy has real experience, or resume experience. Has he done time and earned his bones or did he go to schools and be able to claim "cop" and "experience" on paper to check a box. I'm sure nyeti worked with many just like this, and I damn sure know I have. I worked more calls in a night than he did in months, guaranteed. I think very highly of small town and rural police, and know many that are superb policeman and could work anywhere they chose to. But it really is a different world, and JY is acting like he has the street cred to prove it. Maybe he's a nice fellow in real life, I dunno, and I'll even credit he might be a damn fine teacher.

I think the ability to sniff this stuff out is how I've read posts by nyeti online since, well..forever (T-F?!?!?!), and they always just "clicked," as having the ring of BTDT, at least in my world working in a hyper-violent city. Never have to meet the nyeti in the real world to know it, and maybe never will, but I would vouch for him as 'stand-up' which means a hell of a lot in my world. It's the reason that I really only hang out at this forum and TPI, and I consider myself a lurker and a learner.

My $0.02 on the matter is that while maybe I'd agree with some of what JY says, I don't believe he's earned the bones to say it.

Back to lurking...

23JAZ
05-27-2015, 08:36 PM
I am not a Yeager fan...at all. However, he states some truth in this particular video. I have been investigated through IA and criminally (in-custody death & OIS) politically maligned, written tickets/arrested the wrong folks (including LEO's)...and been ostracized for it, been a political pawn because I wrote the Chiefs buddy a ticket. I could go on and on. I survived thus far...23 years in retirement at this point. There are going to be landmines. You just have to be smart enough to avoid them. Not saying you have to kiss an ass to do it either. I have paid the price for not being a management tool and I can go home and sleep fairly well knowing that. A few years ago nyeti posted what I have in my sig line over on LF. It rings truer everyday I get closer to retirement. I have seen guys be up an admin persons ass so far they could taste their lunch. I have seen those same dudes fall out of favor and out of law enforcement to go work security at Target. I will never hold an upper level management position. I'm good with that. My guys know where I stand and they appreciate it. That's good enough for me.

As far as warriors not getting jobs, he's wrong. Dead nuts wrong. And there are 'warriors' on the street that have never seen a combat zone. Firearms instructors here don't just rubber stamp anyone...maybe in TN(?). The physical standards we are mandated to pass in BLET are the same for male/female. The last 2 true rookies we hired were both terminated within a year. We just hired 3 more so we will see if they shake out but if they don't their ass will be gone too.

There is a lot more to it than what this guy postulates. When I was in BLET one of our instructors stated that law enforcement is on a pendulum. It swings back and forth over time and if we stayed in it long enough we would see it both ways. His statement rings true now because when I started it was fun...now, not so much.

Law enforcement is a thankless job. It can be tough. It can also be great. Depends on what you are willing to put in to it.

I can't stand that douche bag! As far as I'm concerned he is right up there with Cory and Erica. I don't give a shit what his creds are, his cocky, I'm better than you "internet fags" bullshit makes whatever good he could do moot. IMHO of course.

John Hearne
05-27-2015, 09:06 PM
I don't have time for a long response but let me chime in quickly.

I don't have any problems believing what Yeager says in regards to small town politics and police work. I've spent the vast majority of my career around rural agencies - from working as a dispatcher for a very small Sheriff's Office before I was 21 to working with a bunch of small city and county agencies in the Deep South. Those jobs are uber political and if you don't think you'll get fired for citing or arresting the wrong person, you are wrong. 99% of the time, the officer/deputy drops the charges and all is forgiven. In that remaining 1%, where the "wrong" person complains, the officer gets gone. They may be fired or they can just make it incredibly difficult to get by. I've known Yeager for a long time now and I can very easily see him not playing politics and refusing to dismiss charges. Don't confuse the Youtube personality Yeager with the guy he was 10+ years ago.

People who are good cops but fired because they wrote/arrested the wrong person can get picked up easily, until they write/arrest the wrong person in the new jurisdiction. Folks in small rural departments have even been fired for being "rude" to the wrong people. One of the few perks of my job is that I can cite/arrest most anyone and the charge can't be pulled. This does not stop others from calling on behalf of the person I charged - why, because it's highly political and they are obligated to ask.

Ditto with passing those who can't shoot. If you don't think this happens, you are mistaken. Hell, there's at least one "felony waiver" in every academy class at a nearby large agency I know.

olstyn
05-27-2015, 09:28 PM
Nothing wrong with being a cop. The key is to be a cop in a place that wants the policing you want to do. I was very picky. Some don't have the background to be picky and match the agency to your goals. That is a lot of the issue.

Oh yea.....I only made it to 1.28, so I may not have the whole grasp of what his "expert opinion" is.

I never said there was anything wrong with being a cop (I happen to think that those who do it right, especially in the environment that exists today, are amazing people), and I certainly didn't mean to imply a commonality of experience or attitude between you and Yeager. I just meant that in the specific video posted, the points he was making, once you filter through his blustery Yeager-ness, sounded like a less well-spoken echo of some things you've said in the past.

Thank you again for sharing your experience with everyone here. At bare minimum, the perspective of someone who has been there and done that is interesting to learn from, and I think reading what you write benefits us all.

Beat Trash
05-27-2015, 09:37 PM
The difference is that nyeti was actually a cop for almost 20 years in an environment that Yeager is basing on movies (and wanted to do 30, but I got hurt and was forced out kicking and screaming...not fired). Personally, I don't think Yeager would have made probation at a large squared away agency for him to even comment. He was a "Chief" of a one man department in a town of less than 600 people. We often worked party calls with more people. The hard part is figuring out how to function as a cop. It is not about shooting, what holster you are using, or anything most folks on these forums relate to. It is not having a good cry when a crack whore puts her baby in a microwave. It is trying to figure out how child protective services can give a baby back to heroin addicted parents living in a car with needles everywhere and the baby is drinking milk from a bottle so rotten it looks like cottage cheese. Watching mans inhumanity towards man daily. Dealing with some of the sickest people you could imagine regularly. You need to learn to deal,with the internal backstabbing that goes on, not watching movies about it. The back stabbing goes on because unlike any other business there are no stratus's that are present elsewhere. Cops are pretty much the same educationally, morally, backgrounds, etc. The only way to climb is over the backs of folks just like you. Some are cut out for being climbers,some the back, and some (like me) who just dropped out of the process and found happiness on the street and not in the station. A lot of this is simply about being a professional. That is the problem, many in LE are not. There is a massive shortage of leadership and only supervision and micro-management. There is a massive lack of people driven by working to be a nobel profession and treating it like a profession rather than a job.
Here is the truth. A ton of people in cop work shouldn't be. A ton of people running police departments shouldn't be. A vast majority of the politicians who are the communities elected leaders who are tasked with providing police services have no business in that endeavor. Being a cop is an awesome thing. This is especially true if you can figure out how to do it right. As Pat Rogers says "you may love the job, but the job does not love you". That is simply an understanding that takes time to work through. I was lucky that Pete Ambriz (RIP stud), my second FTO got that through my skull early so it wasn't a surprise and I was aware of it.

Nothing wrong with being a cop. The key is to be a cop in a place that wants the policing you want to do. I was very picky. Some don't have the background to be picky and match the agency to your goals. That is a lot of the issue.

Oh yea.....I only made it to 1.28, so I may not have the whole grasp of what his "expert opinion" is.

Well said.

I can not speak of life as a LEO in a rural environment. I can speak of being an inter-city LEO for the last 23 years. I have seen major changes in how it is done. At least in my area. By and large, I thing Police Officers have bitched and complained about changes for generations. I am convinced that there was a time when the last police horse was shot and the new automobiles were introduced that old veteran officers with large mustaches bitched about having to trade in their horse for this new fangled automobile! As a whole, we don't deal well with change...

I can remember talking to a 35 year veteran of my agency when I was in the testing process to be hired. He told me then of the many changes in policing that had occurred since he came on the job and how screwed up things had become, and that I would be a fool to get into policing at that time. I'm sure someone gave him the same lecture 35 years prior to his giving me mine.

Policing involves many types of individuals within an agency. Law Enforcement Officers, Administrators, would be politicians and civil service workers who happen to wear a badge.

It is up to the individual to determine what kind of individual they wish to become once they get on the job. I have spent my entire career as either a Beat Officer, or as a Relief Sergeant who has had the privilege and responsibility to lead good men and women. Many of the more politically correct career path types tend to look down upon the first responding Beat Officer, calling them derogatory names such as, "Beat Trash".

Cowards often mock what they lack the courage to do...

Being an effective Police Officer will take it's toll over time. As a profession, we are just now addressing the concept that many officers will suffer to some extent from PTSD in time. Some from a singular event. Some from decades of smaller events stuffed into a box and buried away. Until the box becomes too full. This can be managed, so long as it is acknowledged and addressed.

If anyone were to ask me if they should consider becoming a Police Officer, I would tell them that it is something they should think through first. These are challenging times for our profession. But I would also tell anyone asking my advice that first and foremost, it is a profession. Treat it as such. If you choose to undertake it, do so with the upmost of professionalism. And try to go into it with your eyes open. Because this isn't a movie, it's very much real life.

As for Yeager's comments, I tried to watch it and listen to what he had to say. But he came across as a kid who is pouting. I tried to listen as I read Nyeti's comments but I couldn't listen to Yeager any more. The only thing I could think of as he talked was, "Shush, the grownups are talking!"

I turned the video off. Life's too short to listen any further...

Dagga Boy
05-27-2015, 09:59 PM
My favorite thing to do these days is hanging out with rural cops here in Texas. I can easily pick the studs out of these guys as I can with metro guys. The studs of these rural agencies are some tough as nails bad asses. They tend to be good at communicating with their "clients" in their areas as I was at working my clients in ghetto apartments and barrios. It's called being a good cop-period. I have also seen the same crap bags in those places as people we had on blue welfare in mine. Like I said, being a cop is tough and the main thing is being able to adapt quickly and have exceptional situational awareness. Does policing now suck in many places...yes. Situational awareness would dictate that doing pro-active policing in low income urban areas is not smart. The current situation is such that there is a time for doing reactionary non-proactive cop work. If a cop is not versatile enough to be able to work both pro-actively and reactively, then that is their own short coming. Did I like doing reactive policing. Nope. Guess what, sometime you don't get to do what you want at work. Did I take pride in the quality of my work product at writing a great police report in documenting past crimes, of course. Would I have preferred to have caught "Ray Ray" as an ex-felon with a gun before he shot K-Dog at the section 8 apartment complex......sure. Could I write a report that would be presented to the DA as an airtight case to put RayRay in prison (again) without any issues....of course and I prided myself in that. Unfortunately, this is not the time to work like that. Now, you respond and write a professional police report to document that RayRay (or somebody) shot K-Dog and send it through the system and let the justice system do whatever it wants with it as the community wishes. If you can't do that as a cop with zero emotion and a cold black heart, you should be in a different line of work. If a cop cannot figure out that they are a mirror of the community, again.....poor situational awareness.
When the community is only concerned about LEO use of force against minorities.....then don't do proactive policing in those areas. Those areas are just fine right now with minorities killing minorities as long as law enforcement isn't involved. Great, write good reports. If the community doesn't care about "cultural crimes" like petty theft and drug use and sales......neither should you. When the community tires of being listed in reports in the "victim" box, they'll let the political powers know and then you can do proactive work. Again,situational awareness, and it is not about making you happy.
My big plan was to do 20 years at my place and my last ten in a small agency in a mountain resort community. Went on lots of ride alongs and spent a good amount of time with their mid level supervisors. The guy I rode with most of the time did the same thing as my plan so he had great insight. He emphasized being adaptable to the community. One of their guys was a perfect example of how to get in trouble as a rural cop and having crap for situational awareness. Guy had been a LAPD motor cop. Came to this community and spent all day writing everyone tickets. Locals, tourists, no one got a break or was immune. This is a smallish community....the guy cannot eat at a single restaurant in town (and they have a ton of great eateries). He generated tons of complaints from the tourists who fuel the town's economy. Eventually,the Chief of Police called him into the office and took his ticket book away and I think he was eventually sent packing. He was a mirror of the community......in Los Angeles, but not where he was. This is a place where they handle annoying Bear calls like we handled drunks. Hell, they had named problem Bears that were just like the town drunks that got arrested several times a month. The mirror of that community is really a simple "keep the peace" type place. Now I am sure the former LAPD motor is telling everyone how he got screwed by politics, and how he was out working everyone who was jealous of how productive he was, blah, blah, blah.....

So, my take is "don't become a cop" if you are not cut out for it.....and it is more complicated than folks think. I would make the SF analogy. If someone goes into SF with the idea of they just want to jump out of planes and helicopters and kill everything, then they will fail when the mission is a humanitarian mission, a training mission with local troops, or a protective assignment in a sensitive area or a mission where language skills or medical skills are more important than shooting skills. Doesn't' make a guy any less a Green Beret if they are great at giving an inoculation shot instead of a head shot......if he can do both and more importantly, knows when to deliver each, it makes him a great Green Beret. Great cops can do a lot of things well, and they know how and when to apply the right skillsets.

GardoneVT
05-27-2015, 10:08 PM
My favorite thing to do these days is hanging out with rural cops here in Texas. I can easily pick the studs out of these guys as I can with metro guys. The studs of these rural agencies are some tough as nails bad asses. They tend to be good at communicating with their "clients" in their areas as I was at working my clients in ghetto apartments and barrios. It's called being a good cop-period. I have also seen the same crap bags in those places as people we had on blue welfare in mine. Like I said, being a cop is tough and the main thing is being able to adapt quickly and have exceptional situational awareness. Does policing now suck in many places...yes. Situational awareness would dictate that doing pro-active policing in low income urban areas is not smart. The current situation is such that there is a time for doing reactionary non-proactive cop work. If a cop is not versatile enough to be able to work both pro-actively and reactively, then that is their own short coming. Did I like doing reactive policing. Nope. Guess what, sometime you don't get to do what you want at work. Did I take pride in the quality of my work product at writing a great police report in documenting past crimes, of course. Would I have preferred to have caught "Ray Ray" as an ex-felon with a gun before he shot K-Dog at the section 8 apartment complex......sure. Could I write a report that would be presented to the DA as an airtight case to put RayRay in prison (again) without any issues....of course and I prided myself in that. Unfortunately, this is not the time to work like that. Now, you respond and write a professional police report to document that RayRay (or somebody) shot K-Dog and send it through the system and let the justice system do whatever it wants with it as the community wishes. If you can't do that as a cop with zero emotion and a cold black heart, you should be in a different line of work. If a cop cannot figure out that they are a mirror of the community, again.....poor situational awareness.
When the community is only concerned about LEO use of force against minorities.....then don't do proactive policing in those areas. Those areas are just fine right now with minorities killing minorities as long as law enforcement isn't involved. Great, write good reports. If the community doesn't care about "cultural crimes" like petty theft and drug use and sales......neither should you. When the community tires of being listed in reports in the "victim" box, they'll let the political powers know and then you can do proactive work. Again,situational awareness, and it is not about making you happy.
My big plan was to do 20 years at my place and my last ten in a small agency in a mountain resort community. Went on lots of ride alongs and spent a good amount of time with their mid level supervisors. The guy I rode with most of the time did the same thing as my plan so he had great insight. He emphasized being adaptable to the community. One of their guys was a perfect example of how to get in trouble as a rural cop and having crap for situational awareness. Guy had been a LAPD motor cop. Came to this community and spent all day writing everyone tickets. Locals, tourists, no one got a break or was immune. This is a smallish community....the guy cannot eat at a single restaurant in town (and they have a ton of great eateries). He generated tons of complaints from the tourists who fuel the town's economy. Eventually,the Chief of Police called him into the office and took his ticket book away and I think he was eventually sent packing. He was a mirror of the community......in Los Angeles, but not where he was. This is a place where they handle annoying Bear calls like we handled drunks. Hell, they had named problem Bears that were just like the town drunks that got arrested several times a month. The mirror of that community is really a simple "keep the peace" type place. Now I am sure the former LAPD motor is telling everyone how he got screwed by politics, and how he was out working everyone who was jealous of how productive he was, blah, blah, blah.....

So, my take is "don't become a cop" if you are not cut out for it.....and it is more complicated than folks think. I would make the SF analogy. If someone goes into SF with the idea of they just want to jump out of planes and helicopters and kill everything, then they will fail when the mission is a humanitarian mission, a training mission with local troops, or a protective assignment in a sensitive area or a mission where language skills or medical skills are more important than shooting skills. Doesn't' make a guy any less a Green Beret if they are great at giving an inoculation shot instead of a head shot......if he can do both and more importantly, knows when to deliver each, it makes him a great Green Beret.

If knowledge is power, then the quoted post is one of these:


http://enformable.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Vogtle_NPP-1.jpg

DMF13
05-27-2015, 10:52 PM
As far as warriors not getting jobs, he's wrong. Dead nuts wrong.Curiosity got the better of me, and I watched it. You are correct, and he is wrong. I don't know of any agency around me that is trying to avoid combat vets. My agency certainly doesn't, and we have several people with us, and it's true at other agencies, that not only are combat vets, but stayed in the Guard/Reserve, and frequently have gone off to combat in over the more than a decade I've been in LE. None of them were "shunned" for the combat experience prior to getting hired, or for deployments they did taking military leave while on the job.

TGS
05-27-2015, 11:09 PM
Curiosity got the better of me, and I watched it. You are correct, and he is wrong. I don't know of any agency around me that is trying to avoid combat vets. My agency certainly doesn't, and we have several people with us, and it's true at other agencies, that not only are combat vets, but stayed in the Guard/Reserve, and frequently have gone off to combat in over the more than a decade I've been in LE. None of them were "shunned" for the combat experience prior to getting hired, or for deployments they did taking military leave while on the job.

Lots of local new hires in my area are prior mil. The NJSP alone could probably create a reserve Marine battalion....they have a reputation of liking Marines. NJ also has absolute vet preference....so that probably plays a role. At the federal level, a buddy of mine who attended FLETC in 2014 said about 1/4 of his class were prior mil....and that class was for an agency which is known for being fairly PC, risk averse, ect.

So, yeah, I think this Yeager guy put his foot in his mouth....

.......Again.

voodoo_man
05-28-2015, 04:59 AM
As its been said, some people know what they are talking about, some people give the impression they know what they are talking.

Ive worked the deepest urban shithole for a while now and JY has no understanding of what hes talkin about. He makes one or two points, by accident presumably, and the rest is nonesense.

Police work is what you make it. When I got on an old salty sgt, with 35yrs in the shit told me that I signed up for the best worst shit show on the planet.

Nyeti is right, situational awareness is basically everything in LE. It doesnt just apply to violence, it applies to everything.

Police work is not blue collar anymore. Thoae wanting to get into need degrees, they need qualifications, they need experience in life. Gone are the days you can walk out of high school and get into the academy.

Hambo
05-28-2015, 06:53 AM
There is a massive lack of people driven by working to be a nobel profession and treating it like a profession rather than a job.


A friend of mine actually said in his interview that he wanted a job with good benefits. If I'd have been on the interview board I would have voted thumbs down. Amazingly they hired him.

I only made it to 53 seconds but here's my take. Will the chiefs and the public love you you? Not so much, but who cares? If you feel like you're called to any profession the only thing you can control is yourself. Do the best you can without fear of what will happen to you professionally. Sometimes you do the right thing and not only do you not get thanks, you get chewed on. I think in part because people who are unafraid to do what's right scare the nutless. There were times I didn't know whether to be pissed or laugh uncontrollably at the absurdity of it all. In the end you suck it up and drive on. And it doesn't just happen in the PD, so be prepared no matter what your profession.

Trooper224
05-28-2015, 08:07 AM
"I've been fired four times." Any idea as to the common denominator there Jimmy?

I swear, every time Jimmy Yay Yay says one thing that seems to make sense he can't stop there and the pissy man-child feces just keep rolling out of his pie hole.

Peally
05-28-2015, 08:16 AM
I try not to think about Yeager.

This is good life advice. Even when he's right 10 percent of the time you get 90 percent of verbal diarrhea with it. I wouldn't trust him if he said it was raining while we stood in a heavy downpour.

Dagga Boy
05-28-2015, 08:30 AM
As its been said, some people know what they are talking about, some people give the impression they know what they are talking.

Ive worked the deepest urban shithole for a while now and JY has no understanding of what hes talkin about. He makes one or two points, by accident presumably, and the rest is nonesense.

Police work is what you make it. When I got on an old salty sgt, with 35yrs in the shit told me that I signed up for the best worst shit show on the planet.

Nyeti is right, situational awareness is basically everything in LE. It doesnt just apply to violence, it applies to everything.

Police work is not blue collar anymore. Thoae wanting to get into need degrees, they need qualifications, they need experience in life. Gone are the days you can walk out of high school and get into the academy.

There are several tidbits of gold in this post. I was the first person ever recruited off a college campus at my agency. I am sure that experiment shocked the department in the "that isn't what we expected", as I was also the first person to say in the interview "I want to put predatory animals in cages" instead of the normal "I want to help people". When I sat in the High School auditorium full of people trying to get 6 jobs, a ton were military guys. They got slain on things like the written exam and many were I'll prepared for how to do an interview. Things have gotten FAR worse in the last 25 years as to what LE agencies want. Reality-current combat vets are FAR more prepared for LE work than current college students-period. But, being this is real life in which common sense in governemnt run agencies doesn't make a bit of sense, that doesn't matter. It is not that some idiot is sitting in an office going "I don't want warriors as cops", the problem is that some idiot in an office has a set of criteria they want for cops that doesn't include being in the military and being a warrior is not on the list. Do guys who are James Yeager's fantasy warriors have a single skillset that is good to have....yes. Is being a "warrior" the only thing that makes a good cop....not even close. If you cannot write a police report that is acceptable to a district attorney with 8 years of college behind them, and a Judge with likely more, then your warrior skills do not matter. Unlike my era, the detectives who are reviewing your reports are also college graduates (when I started I had a closed door counseling session with our watch commander because he literally could not read my reports without a dictionary). How does being a warrior help with figuring out complex legal codes and legal theory? If you cannot decipher a Supreme Court decision, you will have problems with building solid cases and in legally applying all your bad ass warriorness. The people who are hiring police these days do not care about your ability shoot, fight,drive, and deal with bad people. They should, but they don't. The problem is not with warriors, the problem is that the military folks have been busy doing real life crap that interferes with checking the boxes that some desk jockey thinks is important in cop work. Society needs to do a better job of preparing soldiers to enter the policing field, just like any other job field. Like many jobs,mthe hiring criteria does not neccesarily equate to what actually makes a successful person in that field. Keep in mind that in cop world, 10% of the cops out there are doing 90% of the "warrior stuff". In a rural town of 600 people.....I would imagine that there was not a lot of warrior stuff being needed, which may have been James "I am a warrior" (except when people start shooting where he is a leave my teammates in the car without a driver) problem where he was "a cop".

Let's take DUI as an example. My first several years on the job I generally made at least one DUI arrest every night. Fact...DUI's kill and maim a lot of nice people, and they are a big threat to regular people. I wrote exceptional very detailed DUI reports. I have never testified in court on my own DUI arrests because every single one had a guilty plea before going to a trial because I wrote airtight cases. Trust me, that is uncommon because even I am appaled at how sloppy many cops write these reports, and they get slain in court by attorney's who specialize in getting DUI's off. The paperwork and evidentiary requirements to do a DUI arrest has gone up 10x from the time when I started. Many of the cops I worked with when I started could not handle the requirements today that include having to get a warrant for forced evidence. Yeah, I learned from those old Vietnam vets who I started with how to effectively cuff a combative guy to a chair to get a forced blood out of them. Those same guys would have not had the skills to effectively handle the report requirements today. Want to save little kids from some of the sickest abuse imaginable? You better be able to properly get the paperwork and reporting in order to get them permanently removed from that environment in a system not designed to efficiently do that. Saving little kids by being able to fight through inefficient bureacracies is part of the whole "warrior" thing. Until the day arrives where people like me can simply walk a pediophile into the backyard and shoot them in the head to solve the problem, then the only other thing you can do to solve the problem is learn to do exceptional investigations as a patrol cop. What police agencies want are social workers who simply carry a gun. You want to go out and hunt humans to put violent offenders and predators in cages....then you will need to disguise yourself as a social worker with a gun and be able to efficiently and professionally do that job to get the opportunity to hunt the ones where the social work doesn't work. You also have to be highly effective at being a secretary with a gun when society and the environment is not condusive to hunting.

Most people on these forums know me as the knuckle dragging enforcer. Yep, I was good at that. Most do not know that I was also heavily involved with the Tools for Tolerance program and worked at the Museum of Tolerence in their program for law enforcement. Most people do not know that the proudest award I ever got was a kindness to animals award from the ASPCA. Most people don't know that my police reports were so good that I had them coded for the DA's office that hey would prosecute all of my cases without reading them (I had a code for filing the case or dumping the case if it was a loser). Most people don't know that part of the reason I was effective in cleaning up problems was my ability to utilize lots of different legal codes other than the penal and vehicle code. Most people don't know that I have never been sued as cop (included in some suits,but never the primary) and had one formal citizen complaint my entire career.....which was very early and I learned from. I have never been fired as a cop. The guys I really respect as legendary stud cops like pat Rogers, Scott Reitz, Larry Mudgett, John Helms, Jim Cirillo, Bill Allard, and a host of others have never been fired.....this is a clue. Being a cop is complex and it is not for everybody. Eventually, those who are in the hiring cops business will figure out that a lot of our problems arise from hiring the wrong people, but I doubt it. In the meantime, don't become a cop if you cannot handle what being a cop actually is......and it has nothing to do with how good you shoot.

KeeFus
05-28-2015, 08:38 AM
There are several tidbits of gold in this post. I was the first person ever recruited off a college campus at my agency. I am sure that experiment shocked the department in the "that isn't what we expected", as I was also the first person to say in the interview "I want to put predatory animals in cages" instead of the normal "I want to help people". When I sat in the High School auditorium full of people trying to get 6 jobs, a ton were military guys. They got slain on things like the written exam and many were I'll prepared for how to do an interview. Things have gotten FAR worse in the last 25 years as to what LE agencies want. Reality-current combat vets are FAR more prepared for LE work than current college students-period. But, being this is real life in which common sense in governemnt run agencies doesn't make a bit of sense, that doesn't matter. It is not that some idiot is sitting in an office going "I don't want warriors as cops", the problem is that some idiot in an office has a set of criteria they want for cops that doesn't include being in the military and being a warrior is not on the list. Do guys who are James Yeager's fantasy warriors have a single skillset that is good to have....yes. Is being a "warrior" the only thing that makes a good cop....not even close. If you cannot write a police report that is acceptable to a district attorney with 8 years of college behind them, and a Judge with likely more, then your warrior skills do not matter. Unlike my era, the detectives who are reviewing your reports are also college graduates (when I started I had a closed door counseling session with our watch commander because he literally could not read my reports without a dictionary). How does being a warrior help with figuring out complex legal codes and legal theory? If you cannot decipher a Supreme Court decision, you will have problems with building solid cases and in legally applying all your bad ass warriorness. The people who are hiring police these days do not care about your ability shoot, fight,drive, and deal with bad people. They should, but they don't. The problem is not with warriors, the problem is that the military folks have been busy doing real life crap that interferes with checking the boxes that some desk jockey thinks is important in cop work. Society needs to do a better job of preparing soldiers to enter the policing field, just like any other job field. Like many jobs,mthe hiring criteria does not neccesarily equate to what actually makes a successful person in that field. Keep in mind that in cop world, 10% of the cops out there are doing 90% of the "warrior stuff". In a rural town of 600 people.....I would imagine that there was not a lot of warrior stuff being needed, which may have been James "I am a warrior" (except when people start shooting where he is a leave my teammates in the car without a driver) problem where he was "a cop".

Let's take DUI as an example. My first several years on the job I generally made at least one DUI arrest every night. Fact...DUI's kill and maim a lot of nice people, and they are a big threat to regular people. I wrote exceptional very detailed DUI reports. I have never testified in court on my own DUI arrests because every single one had a guilty plea before going to a trial because I wrote airtight cases. Trust me, that is uncommon because even I am appaled at how sloppy many cops write these reports, and they get slain in court by attorney's who specialize in getting DUI's off. The paperwork and evidentiary requirements to do a DUI arrest has gone up 10x from the time when I started. Many of the cops I worked with when I started could not handle the requirements today that include having to get a warrant for forced evidence. Yeah, I learned from those old Vietnam vets who I started with how to effectively cuff a combative guy to a chair to get a forced blood out of them. Those same guys would have not had the skills to effectively handle the report requirements today. Want to save little kids from some of the sickest abuse imaginable? You better be able to properly get the paperwork and reporting in order to get them permanently removed from that environment in a system not designed to efficiently do that. Saving little kids by being able to fight through inefficient bureacracies is part of the whole "warrior" thing. Until the day arrives where people like me can simply walk a pediophile into the backyard and shoot them in the head to solve the problem, then the only other thing you can do to solve the problem is learn to do exceptional investigations as a patrol cop. What police agencies want are social workers who simply carry a gun. You want to go out and hunt humans to out violent offenders in cages....then you will need to disguise yourself as a social worker with a gun and be able to efficiently and professionally do that job to get the opportunity to hunt the ones where the social work doesn't work. You also have to be highly effective at being a secretary with a gun when society and the environment is not condusive to hunting.

Most people on these forums know me as the knuckle dragging enforcer. Yep, I was good at that. Most do not know that I was also heavily involved with the Tools for Tolerance program and worked at the Museum of Tolerence in their program for law enforcement. Most people do not know that the proudest award I ever got was a kindness to animals award from the ASPCA. Most people don't know that my police reports were so good that I had them coded for the DA's office that hey would prosecute all of my cases without reading them (I had a code for filing the case or dumping the case if it was a loser). Most people don't know that part of the reason I was effective in cleaning up problems was my ability to utilize lots of different legal codes other than the penal and vehicle code. Most people don't know that I have never been sued as cop, and had one formal citizen complaint my entire career.....which was very early and I learned from. Being a cop is complex and it is not for everybody. Eventually, those who are in the hiring cops business will figure out that a lot of our problems arise from hiring the wrong people, but I doubt it. In the meantime, don't become a cop if you cannot handle what being a cop actually is......and it has nothing to do with how good you shoot.

WIN!!!

/thread

Beat Trash
05-28-2015, 09:27 AM
I currently have six recruits with FTO's on my relief. Three of the six are combat vets.

hufnagel
05-28-2015, 09:52 AM
Jesus, Nyeti. If I were a woman my ovaries would have exploded multiple times from all that.

NerdAlert
05-28-2015, 10:48 AM
Jesus, Nyeti. If I were a woman my ovaries would have exploded multiple times from all that.

I really don't understand the joke.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

"Gustatus similis pullus"

psalms144.1
05-28-2015, 11:47 AM
Reality-current combat vets are FAR more prepared for LE work than current college students-period. But, being this is real life in which common sense in governemnt run agencies doesn't make a bit of sense, that doesn't matter... Unlike my era, the detectives who are reviewing your reports are also college graduates (when I started I had a closed door counseling session with our watch commander because he literally could not read my reports without a dictionary)...I spent several hours yesterday digging through the recent report on the Presidential whatever on policing - and, sure a shinola, there was a recommendation in there about requiring college degrees for LE positions across the board. I have a BS, from a "name" University, and everything I learned in college helps me about 1% of the time in my daily work - and I'm in a "white collar" investigative job.

True story, in my first office with this Agency, I had a crusty old ASAC who used to call me up and bitch me out because my reports had "too many 25 cent words" in them. I was ordered, directly, to "dumb them down." "We all know you went to Georgetown," he said, "now write like a cop..."

Sometimes, change is good.

And, in case I haven't said this to all y'all out there in uniform doing real police work every day - thank you, I'm in awe of what you do. Stay safe!

voodoo_man
05-28-2015, 02:17 PM
I spent several hours yesterday digging through the recent report on the Presidential whatever on policing - and, sure a shinola, there was a recommendation in there about requiring college degrees for LE positions across the board. I have a BS, from a "name" University, and everything I learned in college helps me about 1% of the time in my daily work - and I'm in a "white collar" investigative job.

True story, in my first office with this Agency, I had a crusty old ASAC who used to call me up and bitch me out because my reports had "too many 25 cent words" in them. I was ordered, directly, to "dumb them down." "We all know you went to Georgetown," he said, "now write like a cop..."

Sometimes, change is good.

And, in case I haven't said this to all y'all out there in uniform doing real police work every day - thank you, I'm in awe of what you do. Stay safe!

Funny enough I got a similar "order" that I disregarded after burning down their logic.

Like Nyeti said, who stands this stuff up in court? The officer does. Anything they do, they must stand up in court eventually, and especially if force is used.

Understanding how to compose a well rounded and written report is not difficult, nor does it require a degree of any type. It does, however, seem to be easier for college educated officers.

Gadfly
05-28-2015, 02:52 PM
Understanding how to compose a well rounded and written report is not difficult, nor does it require a degree of any type. It does, however, seem to be easier for college educated officers.

When I first came on, I attempted to point out to a "seasoned" officer that a written repot on a vehicle incident should not refer to the gas "petal", but should be the gas "pedal". I was yelled out for being a smart-ass-know-it-all-college boy...

When I came on with the Feds, you had to have 4 years college, 4 years military, prior police, or a combination of them. Now, its a 4 year degree minimum, plus any applicable experience. Veterans points help you get the job for sure, but the 4 year degree is non negotiable in many Fed agencies now. If nothing else, it shows you can crank out a lot of paperwork and perform mind numbing research.

As far as the job, politics is at least half of policing. Especially in my agency, immigration enforcement is always a hot button issue. Half the country thinks we are too harsh on aliens, the other half thinks we are too lenient. Both sides hate us most of the time.

Would I recommend this job? Depends on the person. If you love the work, it is the best job on the planet. I get paid to work the range, work on guns, do lots of surveillance, and occasionally dive fast and tackle bad guys. I also have to generate a lot of useless reports, sit through worthless training, get told I have to work unpaid during furlough because congress cant get it shit together, occasionally go into work at 8am and get home at noon the following day, and endure a lot of public resentment for "harassing aliens who just want a better life". If that appeals to you the job is great.

I think it is a lifestyle choice, more than just a job. You really have to "want" to be here.

(Disclaimer ** being a Fed is way less stressful than uniformed patrol, not nearly as much "on the street" time as patrol does. But enough time in narcotics and alien smuggling to the dark side of humanity...some people are just monsters.)

And for the most part, Yeager is douche nozzle.

breakingtime91
05-28-2015, 03:06 PM
When I first came on, I attempted to point out to a "seasoned" officer that a written repot on a vehicle incident should not refer to the gas "petal", but should be the gas "pedal". I was yelled out for being a smart-ass-know-it-all-college boy...

When I came on with the Feds, you had to have 4 years college, 4 years military, prior police, or a combination of them. Now, its a 4 year degree minimum, plus any applicable experience. Veterans points help you get the job for sure, but the 4 year degree is non negotiable in many Fed agencies now. If nothing else, it shows you can crank out a lot of paperwork and perform mind numbing research.

As far as the job, politics is at least half of policing. Especially in my agency, immigration enforcement is always a hot button issue. Half the country thinks we are too harsh on aliens, the other half thinks we are too lenient. Both sides hate us most of the time.

Would I recommend this job? Depends on the person. If you love the work, it is the best job on the planet. I get paid to work the range, work on guns, do lots of surveillance, and occasionally dive fast and tackle bad guys. I also have to generate a lot of useless reports, sit through worthless training, get told I have to work unpaid during furlough because congress cant get it shit together, occasionally go into work at 8am and get home at noon the following day, and endure a lot of public resentment for "harassing aliens who just want a better life". If that appeals to you the job is great.

I think it is a lifestyle choice, more than just a job. You really have to "want" to be here.

(Disclaimer ** being a Fed is way less stressful than uniformed patrol, not nearly as much "on the street" time as patrol does. But enough time in narcotics and alien smuggling to the dark side of humanity...some people are just monsters.)

And for the most part, Yeager is douche nozzle.


Love the last part. Thoughtful post, thanks man

Trooper224
05-28-2015, 05:17 PM
My current Captain once reviewed an incident report of mine and asked me if I knew the meaning of one of the words I had used. When I replied in the affirmative his response was, "Huh, I had to look it up." I actually have to testify once every couple of years, usually it's because a new defense attorney doesn't recognize the name on the report. Usually it doesn't get that far. I thought that would change when I left a rural area of the state and moved back to civilization in a metro area, but nope. Once, I was sitting in court waiting for my turn when the DA walked in and took the defense attorney into a side room. I heard him say, "You need to plead this out. See that guy out there? He'll eat your lunch on the stand." I've always taken great pride in that reputation. As an old wise Trooper once told me long ago, "You can move a mountain, but if you don't use an agency shovel it doesn't mean anything."

Being a cop is a life full of contradictions. I remember the first traffic fatality I worked. I showed up and jumped out of my car to the sound of six people screaming as they were burning alive in their fully engulfed vehicle. Welcome to the Highway Patrol son. I remember six months later, kneeling in the dirt of a newly plowed field watching a four year old boy die in my arms, after I'd pulled him and his shattered car seat from the wreckage of his parents car. I remember watching the ambulance pull up and the EMS crew running hell bent for election towards us, knowing it was pointless. I remember the sense of helplessness and despair I felt at that moment. Then and there I knew I'd have to learn to compartmentalize my job from the rest of my life, or I wasn't going to make it. I was hard when I took the job, but I learned to be hard in the right places and not to treat my wife and kids like criminals.

I also remember the feelings of satisfaction I've had in putting seriously bad people in prison for serious time, or having grown adults approach me and shake my hand, thanking me for doing something that set them straight when they were a teenager. All the while trying to wrack my brain to remember the incident they were talking about. I remember the disillusionment I felt when I had my idealism trampled, after watching other cops throw each other under the bus for their own personal gain and realizing that whole brotherhood of the badge thing was largely a Hollywood myth. It made me realize cops are just people, some good and some not so much. I learned to attach myself to the former and notify the latter they'd better walk on the other side of the street when I was around. I remember the satisfaction I felt at being a city boy, yet managing to win the respect of the farmers and ranchers in my area because I was "firm but fair". I hated nearly every minute of the thirteen years I spent in that area, but it made me a far better communicator than I would have been otherwise. Now I work in a metro area where everyone's usually a "dickhead", yet my coworkers are often surprised when I can talk just about anyone into complying with anything.

The old timers I learned from were a different breed, as I am from the younger guys who now look at me as, "The Old Guy". Those old timers wouldn't last five minutes in modern law enforcement, as good as they were for their time. The job is immeasurably more complex than it was when I started. My old partner retired about two years ago and one of the primary reasons was he couldn't keep up with the increasing technology. Do I recommend law enforcement? My common sense side says no, run as far from it as you can and punch your kid in the face if he says he wants to be a cop. On the other hand, the part of me that still has a driving need to go into the worlds dark places, grab evil by the throat and pop it's head like a pimple says absolutely. So it's a mixed bag for me. You makes your choices and you takes your chances, just man up and don't bitch like a pussy..................or James Yeager.

voodoo_man
05-28-2015, 05:42 PM
My current Captain once reviewed an incident report of mine and asked me if I knew the meaning of one of the words I had used. .

...your Captain reviews reports?

Wow.

Trooper224
05-28-2015, 05:50 PM
...your Captain reviews reports?

Wow.

He was actually our admin. lieutenant at the time and part of that job's description is to review major case reports. Apparently his lack of vocabulary didn't effect his promotional prospects.

voodoo_man
05-28-2015, 06:01 PM
He was actually our admin. lieutenant at the time and part of that job's description is to review major case reports. Apparently his lack of vocabulary didn't effect his promotional prospects.

It never does.

NerdAlert
05-28-2015, 06:07 PM
I just wanted to say thanks to those of you that serve in our PD's. This thread is really interesting and some of the LE members have shared some really enlightening and helpful information. Once upon a time I thought about becoming a cop, and chose another path for many reasons. I have many family members that are LE and I really appreciate what it takes to do what you do. Great reading and thanks again.

LSP552
05-29-2015, 07:38 AM
It never does.

That was exactly what I was going to type!

I can't bring myself to listen to a JY clip, but as already discussed, LE is what you make of it. Every department has it's own culture, political and otherwise. Unfortunately, so much of an agency's political culture depends on the chief/superintendent. Since most (not all) of these are political hacks, they focus on what they know; politics instead of police work.

The higher the rank, the more politics counts over competence. I can't convey in words how much I hate political hacks.

hufnagel
05-29-2015, 07:42 AM
I really don't understand the joke.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

"Gustatus similis pullus"

Right... Sorry... forgot about the audience... how about this?

http://img.pandawhale.com/39876-The-Rock-applauds-applause-cla-OmWp.gif

Dagga Boy
05-29-2015, 08:58 AM
It is kind of funny on the reports. When my first LT called me in it was a funny exchange. Now this guy was the most senior guy in the department. I think he ended up retiring with 40 plus years on the job. This is a guy who started in the forties. He was a GREAT guy, but the epitome of "not on-board with new fangled cop stuff". You can imagine a 40's cop in the 80's. So here comes "College boy" (which was better than the FTO who I just left who called me Kike Boo, or just kike). He tells me that I need to start writing reports at a third grade level so "people can read them". I was obviously the first of the generation who didn't say "yes, sir" to stupid things. Nope, with my big 4 or 5 months of experience, I simply tell him "who can't read them?...the detectives should have some level of college education (most had an AA from community college to help with promotion), the DA's all have both a college degree and a law degree,and the judge likely has all of that plus a masters degree. The only one who can't read my reports is the crook, and I don't care if they can read it." This was actually a subliminal slight at the Lt., because he wouldn't want to classify himself with the crooks. His response makes me laugh to this day. He was hugely fat and played Santa at Christmas. He also liked passing his time by making wooden boats in the Watch Commanders office. So here is a guy who looks like Santa covered in saw dust who leans back in the chair and simply says "well stop being so......verbose (in a sort of questioned tone like he was hoping it was the right word)". I just smiled and said "yes, sir" with a smile noting the dictionary that was sitting next to him on the desk. Hey, at least he looked up the right word:o. I adored the guy because it was like working for your grumpy grandpa (grumpy grandpa is not likely a leadership style taught in management school).

My relationship with this Lieutenant was indicative of how to survive in cop work. Sometimes you have to bend. Yea, I would push him a little just because I was a new and excited kid with very new ideas. On the other hand, I would always ask him about the why's of how things are done so I could learn where policy's and SOP's came from. If you can't learn some stuff from a guy who had been a cop since just after WWII, you are an idiot. We had a very respectful relationship because even though he thought I was one of those snot nosed college boys, he knew I was also very academic and really wanted to learn stuff. Likewise, while I thought he was outdated on his thoughts on everything, he also had survived an awfully long time in a very tough job in a very tough town.
Again, situational awareness. You will not always win. You need to figure out how hard to push and figure out how to adapt. You need to figure out where lines are so you don't cross them. You can push to the edge, but if you go over you can end up unemployed. Even if the "lines" are not "fair" , "right" or even "legal", you better have a clue where they are. Back to situational awareness as the key element of cop work.

Chuck Haggard
05-29-2015, 09:27 AM
So, you are saying that after I used the word "harangue" in a sentence during a command staff meeting, and got called out my a Capt. for making up a word, that I shouldn't have immediately turned to the Chief and asked him why it was that I was in a room full of masters degrees, after having just been chastised for my lack of having a college education, but I was the only guy in the room with a vocabulary?

Departments that only hire people with college degrees lose a LOT of very solid folks coming from other jobs or the military, and often end up with a lot of frat boys and people with a paper to hang on the wall yet no real world knowledge or abilities. I had two commanders with masters degrees that couldn't type a cogent e-mail, or use spellcheck. Marking the boxes is a bullshit way to do business.

Peally
05-29-2015, 09:51 AM
I've also encountered people with degrees far superior to mine that couldn't accomplish very basic tasks specific to the field. It doesn't hurt to have but without the right degree and an individual to absorb/use that information correctly it's not a bonus.

Dagga Boy
05-29-2015, 10:04 AM
Don't get me started. We had some b.s thing at my department where a bunch of the supervisors who wanted to promote would do this program to get degrees in police management or some crap. They met twice a week in the conference room for a couple hours and in a year they had a degree. We called it the "buy a degree" program.

One of the Lieutenants and I essentially hated each other. World's biggest hypocrite, which happens to be a huge pet peeve of mine. I used to screw with him relentlessly after he tried several times to get me fired. So this guy was on one of his little b.s. Crusades to screw me and would write me up for something everyday. So he sends a report back to me with a "bluey" (it was a small write up that the "blue" copy went in your shift file for evaluations). He bled all over the report in red ink for spelling and grammatical errors. He hand wrote a muti-page "bluey" attached to the report. So.....I sent him the report back with a "response". In a well crafted rebuttal, he was advised that a typist typed the report as I had recorded it. Any spelling and grammatical errors needed to be addressed with the typist. I then used a red pen to circle and correct all of his spelling and grammer errors on his hand written "bluey". Well, this got me another closed door session in the Watch Commanders office. He, of course, dropped the "well I have an advanced degree" on me as to how smart he was. My response of "well Lieutenant, unlike you I went to real college so you may not want to screw with me on this stuff because you will lose everytime". He gave up on this line of attack. Same guy who denied my medal of valor recommendation because "we don't give medals for shooting people". Great, then I don't want one if you have to get shot to get one.
The biggest issue they had with me was that I lived a fairly monkish lifestyle. Didn't drink, went home to my wife instead of tity bars, had my finances in order, and didn't hang out with other cops who were likely to get you in trouble with them or have dirt on you. I at least knew I had a target on my back because of my "delivery" when dealing with others in the organization. With that in mind, I was good at not giving them ammunition and documenting things. I always had a love/hate relationship with supervisors. Good leaders loved me because I worked my ass off for them and made them look good. The ones who were passive/aggressive pussy's despised me. It is why I worked weekend nights my whole career. It kept me away from the people who didn't like me. Again, you need to adapt.

MDS
05-29-2015, 03:30 PM
I worked weekend nights my whole career. It kept me away from the people who didn't like me.

Wow. You hated bad supes so bad, you chose to work weekend nights, aka the "accelerated learning program" of coppering? And bad supes hated you so bad in return, that not even the kind of people you interacted with as a cop on weekend nights disliked you as much?

If that's not a clear warning, I don't know what is.... ;)

Trooper224
05-29-2015, 04:08 PM
Don't get me started. We had some b.s thing at my department where a bunch of the supervisors who wanted to promote would do this program to get degrees in police management or some crap. They met twice a week in the conference room for a couple hours and in a year they had a degree. We called it the "buy a degree" program.

One of the Lieutenants and I essentially hated each other. World's biggest hypocrite, which happens to be a huge pet peeve of mine. I used to screw with him relentlessly after he tried several times to get me fired. So this guy was on one of his little b.s. Crusades to screw me and would write me up for something everyday. So he sends a report back to me with a "bluey" (it was a small write up that the "blue" copy went in your shift file for evaluations). He bled all over the report in red ink for spelling and grammatical errors. He hand wrote a muti-page "bluey" attached to the report. So.....I sent him the report back with a "response". In a well crafted rebuttal, he was advised that a typist typed the report as I had recorded it. Any spelling and grammatical errors needed to be addressed with the typist. I then used a red pen to circle and correct all of his spelling and grammer errors on his hand written "bluey". Well, this got me another closed door session in the Watch Commanders office. He, of course, dropped the "well I have an advanced degree" on me as to how smart he was. My response of "well Lieutenant, unlike you I went to real college so you may not want to screw with me on this stuff because you will lose everytime". He gave up on this line of attack. Same guy who denied my medal of valor recommendation because "we don't give medals for shooting people". Great, then I don't want one if you have to get shot to get one.
The biggest issue they had with me was that I lived a fairly monkish lifestyle. Didn't drink, went home to my wife instead of tity bars, had my finances in order, and didn't hang out with other cops who were likely to get you in trouble with them or have dirt on you. I at least knew I had a target on my back because of my "delivery" when dealing with others in the organization. With that in mind, I was good at not giving them ammunition and documenting things. I always had a love/hate relationship with supervisors. Good leaders loved me because I worked my ass off for them and made them look good. The ones who were passive/aggressive pussy's despised me. It is why I worked weekend nights my whole career. It kept me away from the people who didn't like me. Again, you need to adapt.

Were you living my career in an alternate universe? :D

Dagga Boy
05-29-2015, 04:21 PM
"Wow. You hated bad supes so bad, you chose to work weekend nights, aka the "accelerated learning program" of coppering? And bad supes hated you so bad in return, that not even the kind of people you interacted with as a cop on weekend nights disliked you as much?"


Dealing with crooks was easy. You just look each other in the eye and communicate. I had no issues in the field with my "clients". When I retired one of the Captains confided in me that he had told many of the other supervisors that they should have been listening to me. He said that the problem was that my delivery was always so harsh. I told him that when I was dealing with veteran police officers with decades of experience, a gun,am badge, the power to take life and I need to sugar coat my delivery of information to not hurt their feelings. He said "yea, you always seemed to be right". This was true.....not that I was always right, but if I was passionate enough to be going nose to nose with upper management, I wouldn't have been doing it unless I was right.

Here is reality. Police agencies are dysfunctional government organizations. A lot of that dysfunction comes from supervision. Thus....it helps to avoid them. So yes, I worked 19 years of weekend nights. It also made it easy to be a dick.....I mean what were they going to do, make me work weekend nights? If they ever figured out that if they put me on days with weekends off it would have been total punishment. I did it for six months for my wife......worst six months ever of my career and I hated it.

Gadfly
05-29-2015, 04:43 PM
There is a certain freedom that comes with mindset of "I am never seeking promotion"... It is a weight off the shoulders.

For my agency, you have to do 18-24 months in DC to be promotable. And then, you may not get to go back to your home office. You may hear "oh, you are from the Houston office? Our only supervisory openings are in Provo, Tampa, and Boise...take your pick". Many people don't care about the moves, or the ass kissing required to promote. For me, the juice is not worth the squeeze.

Besides, my personality and mouth pretty much guaranteed I was not moving too high even if I wanted to...

BehindBlueI's
05-29-2015, 04:54 PM
Heh. I like my department and I like the majority of the supervisors I've had. I've only had one guy who didn't like how I did business, and a recorder and a chat with the LT solved that issue.

We're big enough that if you stay in the rank and file, you've got enough insulation that the politics doesn't get you that often. Now I'm in a fairly small office with a SGT I've known for 6 years or so, a LT who doesn't believe in micro-managing, and a CPT who still does interviews and assists on cases. Anybody above CPT doesn't have much effect on me.

BehindBlueI's
05-29-2015, 04:56 PM
There is a certain freedom that comes with mindset of "I am never seeking promotion"... It is a weight off the shoulders.


That's a fact. We've got many, many officers who go their whole careers without attempting to go beyond PTL or DET. Our pensions are based on the base pay of a 3rd year patrolman so there's no big pay off in retirement to do so. Plus you lose shift bid, you can be assigned anywhere in the dept without your consent, etc. They can't take me and put me in Child Abuse, for example. They can only leave me where I am or kick me back to the street unless I agree. SGT and up, nope, you go where they send you.

voodoo_man
05-29-2015, 04:56 PM
"Wow. You hated bad supes so bad, you chose to work weekend nights, aka the "accelerated learning program" of coppering? And bad supes hated you so bad in return, that not even the kind of people you interacted with as a cop on weekend nights disliked you as much?"


Dealing with crooks was easy. You just look each other in the eye and communicate. I had no issues in the field with my "clients". When I retired one of the Captains confided in me that he had told many of the other supervisors that they should have been listening to me. He said that the problem was that my delivery was always so harsh. I told him that when I was dealing with veteran police officers with decades of experience, a gun,am badge, the power to take life and I need to sugar coat my delivery of information to not hurt their feelings. He said "yea, you always seemed to be right". This was true.....not that I was always right, but if I was passionate enough to be going nose to nose with upper management, I wouldn't have been doing it unless I was right.

Here is reality. Police agencies are dysfunctional government organizations. A lot of that dysfunction comes from supervision. Thus....it helps to avoid them. So yes, I worked 19 years of weekend nights. It also made it easy to be a dick.....I mean what were they going to do, make me work weekend nights? If they ever figured out that if they put me on days with weekends off it would have been total punishment. I did it for six months for my wife......worst six months ever of my career and I hated it.

Basically sums up my experience and probably the next few years of my LE career.

I quit narc because of a supervisor doing stupid things and putting people into dangerous situations without even the concept of safety. When I handed in my transfer paperwork I got hazed for ten minutes by this supervisor and then I hazed him back for about the same amount of time.

The only time I ever opened my mouth to a supervisor or brass was when I had hard facts to back up my statements, each and every time I got the BS "we'll look into it" answer and I can count on one hand how many times things changed during the dozens upon dozens of instances I pointing things out.

LE doesn't like change, and in that is the worst thing because LE has to change to survive and allow for the best possible outcome for every situation. When you run a department like a company you stop trying to change anything, you want the norm and that's it, that's failure in my book.

voodoo_man
05-29-2015, 04:59 PM
That's a fact. We've got many, many officers who go their whole careers without attempting to go beyond PTL or DET. Our pensions are based on the base pay of a 3rd year patrolman so there's no big pay off in retirement to do so. Plus you lose shift bid, you can be assigned anywhere in the dept without your consent, etc. They can't take me and put me in Child Abuse, for example. They can only leave me where I am or kick me back to the street unless I agree. SGT and up, nope, you go where they send you.

My PD is the same. You make Detective or SGT you are going anywhere they need you. SGT and above you are management equivalent of a pinata, they put you wherever they need you. Worse yet, every three or four years you will do a year of last out/midnights. I did midnights for years and they can keep that.

John Hearne
05-29-2015, 06:10 PM
Many people don't care about the moves, or the ass kissing required to promote. For me, the juice is not worth the squeeze. ... Besides, my personality and mouth pretty much guaranteed I was not moving too high even if I wanted to...

Interesting how this holds true across the Fed system. The primary driver for promotion in my agency is willingness to move. A very good proportion of our high level management are where they are because of their willingness to uproot their family (if they have them).

I am (in)famous for telling the truth. I've learned not to offer it unless asked but I haven't learned to deliver it in a way that doesn't step on toes. My only saving grace is being highly competent, having a reputation for being able to get things done, and being able to write effectively (probably the real key). While people like me aren't necessarily popular, the head shed likes to keep a few of us around to make sure the trains are still running.

secondstoryguy
05-29-2015, 06:35 PM
I've done many different jobs including the several enlistments in the military and as a full time nights patrol officer I don't really think police work is much different that any other demanding job. Sure the stakes are a bit higher but much like any other job you are trapped between an administration that is out of touch and a customer that has unrealistic expectations.

The one thing I can say is police work is definitely "serving". If the public only knew what we did on a daily basis their minds would be blown. I think President Kennedy's quote about the CIA sums it up best, "...its successes will be secret and it's failures will be trumpeted..."

Was Yeager ever full time LEO? If not, IMHO he can kick rocks.

LSP552
05-29-2015, 08:07 PM
LE is generally pretty bad about not providing good LEADERSHIP training for supervisors. Newly minted supervisors may go to technical schools but many agencies just have a complete lack of real leadership training.

I suspect we have all worked for supervisors who couldn't spell leadership, much less show any. Learning to lead is not an inherent trait we are born with, it's a learned skill you hone over a lifetime. You learn from good leaders and bad. Some of my best learning moments came from saying to myself if I'm ever in a position to change things, this shit won't happen again.

Not worrying about political considerations brings it's own rewards. You just have to know and accept the consequences of limits on how far up the ladder you go.

John Hearne
05-29-2015, 08:26 PM
There are limits to what good leadership can accomplish. The effects of bad leadership are limitless.

LSP552
05-29-2015, 08:33 PM
There are limits to what good leadership can accomplish. The effects of bad leadership are limitless.

Absolutely golden John!

LtDave
05-29-2015, 09:06 PM
For years, my old place did absolutely nothing in the way of mentorship or development for supervisors or managers. It finally took an outside chief to begin fixing that oversight. I think the point was rammed home when an outside oral board interviewed lieutenant hopefuls and no one scored well. I have no doubt the chief was told why. Shortly thereafter, I was only the second Sergeant from my agency to attend the Sherman Block Supervisory Leadership Institute. I made lieutenant off that list, but it was a squeaker.

MD7305
05-29-2015, 10:56 PM
I was promoted to SGT about 4 years ago...and it was probably the worst mistake I've made career wise. I've had excellent officers assigned to me (patrol) and we work hard. I've always liked sports and I approach it from a team perspective, we work together to accomplish our tasks. I'm not immune to calls because I wear collar brass. Our Chief shields a lot of the political crap but there's always the admin crap/drama. I miss the days of running calls with no other worries than being effective and keeping my bros safe. Now I have an entirely different level of issues to deal with. I still run calls and help out, I'm still a sh!t magnet, and I try to avoid my office but its like I got a freaking tether pulling me back. Stripes took all the fun out of my job. I took the exam thinking that it'd be good experience to go through the process never thinking I would have a chance and.... I ended up getting it. It was the proverbial "dog chases car, dog catches car, WTF now?" So my advice is if you're already a cop, don't test for promotion....unless you REALLY want it cause you might just get it. The only saving grace is now I have an itty-bitty amount of influence to help improve the department and even though these stripes weigh me down sometimes maybe I can make the PD a little bit better for those guys working patrol and toughing out those weekend nights. Overly optimistic I suppose.

serialsolver
05-30-2015, 09:12 AM
Wow, this thread is a way-back machine for me. I worked for supervisors that I had to treat like a rattle snake cause you had to watch every move you made around them. I had a list of topics that my administration had ordered me not to talk about. When they reclassified my rank and I was no longer a supervisor I told everyone "thank God I've been delivered from the bonds of supervision". My advice to the folks I worked with is this, be the best cop you can be but don't do it for the administration or the politicians or the people in the city. Be the best cop you can be for yourself cause when your career is over knowing that you did your best is what will matter. That and they put money in my bank account the last business day of the month for the rest of my life. I'll be on the couch lurking.


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Wayne Dobbs
05-30-2015, 09:37 AM
Just to jump on the pile here with my experiences in a 25+ year career. When I first started, the job was taught to me this way: "Take care of the good guys...and take care of the bad guys". Those are two very different task sets and when learned, you can do great work. We did great work and I did great work and it was fun and satisfying. Then the political correctness came upon us and leadership, which had always been in short supply, literally vanished. The profession has now embraced what I term "pathological approval seeking games" of trying to be all things to all people and thereby abandoning our true mission. Leaders are not desired, but shitbird managers are welcome. I'm so glad I got out when I did. I miss the job, but I don't miss the scumbags I had to deal with....and they wore the same badge I did.

OnionsAndDragons
05-30-2015, 10:12 AM
I'm really thankful for those of you out there, being professional cops AND stand-up humans.

I've got a good deal of respect for anyone willing to try to do the job, but I have the utmost respect and gratitude for those out there like yourselves.

Thanks for doing it, and thank you for sharing your experiences and insights with all of us.


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voodoo_man
05-30-2015, 02:47 PM
Just to jump on the pile here with my experiences in a 25+ year career. When I first started, the job was taught to me this way: "Take care of the good guys...and take care of the bad guys". Those are two very different task sets and when learned, you can do great work. We did great work and I did great work and it was fun and satisfying. Then the political correctness came upon us and leadership, which had always been in short supply, literally vanished. The profession has now embraced what I term "pathological approval seeking games" of trying to be all things to all people and thereby abandoning our true mission. Leaders are not desired, but shitbird managers are welcome. I'm so glad I got out when I did. I miss the job, but I don't miss the scumbags I had to deal with....and they wore the same badge I did.

Wow, did you work for the same dept I do?

LtDave
05-30-2015, 05:36 PM
A couple additional thoughts on promotion. Sometimes, you have to promote in self defense to avoid having to report to an idiot. If you spend any amount of time actually doing police work, your chances of reaching high(er) rank decline. I spent way too much time doing cop stuff as opposed to doing "get promoted" stuff. Probably related to that lack of professional development I mentioned in the earlier post. IMHO, Lieutenant is about the highest a real working cop can achieve. I'll always remember what Darryl Gates wrote in his book about his career. As soon as he gained a new rank, he immediately started preparing to take the next test. Another couple of secrets. Lieutenant is the worst rank in law enforcement. Literally no fun, no how, not ever at least at my old agency. That ringing phone in the watch commander's office never had good news at the other end. I took the Lieutenant job because it was worth another $1000/mo over my Sergeant money. I retired soon after reaching top step and when I hit age 50, the minimum age for service retirement. Detective Sergeant is the best job in law enforcement. You get to work on all the major cases and can cherry pick any others that grab your fancy. A good amount of overtime and at my old place, one of the few assignments that came with a take home car.

BehindBlueI's
05-30-2015, 06:18 PM
A couple additional thoughts on promotion. Sometimes, you have to promote in self defense to avoid having to report to an idiot. If you spend any amount of time actually doing police work, your chances of reaching high(er) rank decline. I spent way too much time doing cop stuff as opposed to doing "get promoted" stuff. Probably related to that lack of professional development I mentioned in the earlier post. IMHO, Lieutenant is about the highest a real working cop can achieve. I'll always remember what Darryl Gates wrote in his book about his career. As soon as he gained a new rank, he immediately started preparing to take the next test. Another couple of secrets. Lieutenant is the worst rank in law enforcement. Literally no fun, no how, not ever at least at my old agency. That ringing phone in the watch commander's office never had good news at the other end. I took the Lieutenant job because it was worth another $1000/mo over my Sergeant money. I retired soon after reaching top step and when I hit age 50, the minimum age for service retirement. Detective Sergeant is the best job in law enforcement. You get to work on all the major cases and can cherry pick any others that grab your fancy. A good amount of overtime and at my old place, one of the few assignments that came with a take home car.

The only issue with DET-SGT here is they can move you at their whim. My last partner got promoted and two weeks later was in Professional Standards, the criminal side of our Internal Affairs. Pass.

BehindBlueI's
05-30-2015, 09:43 PM
I'm going to spend a shift searching trash at a landfill for the corpse of an infant in the morning. Who WOULDN'T want to be a cop?

I volunteered. I really thought I was smarter than that.

Warren Wilson
05-31-2015, 01:16 AM
LE is generally pretty bad about not providing good LEADERSHIP training for supervisors. Newly minted supervisors may go to technical schools but many agencies just have a complete lack of real leadership training.

I suspect we have all worked for supervisors who couldn't spell leadership, much less show any. Learning to lead is not an inherent trait we are born with, it's a learned skill you hone over a lifetime. You learn from good leaders and bad. Some of my best learning moments came from saying to myself if I'm ever in a position to change things, this shit won't happen again.


I'm testing for captain on the 9th. Part of the process is to write an essay on the biggest challenge the department faces and how to solve it. My topic is lack of training and especially, lack of leadership training. We'll see how they take it.

cpd2110
05-31-2015, 09:00 AM
I'm going to spend a shift searching trash at a landfill for the corpse of an infant in the morning. Who WOULDN'T want to be a cop?

I volunteered. I really thought I was smarter than that.

BlueI, sucks, I read about it this morning. I've been lucky to only have to deal with child deaths a few times. As you know those stay with you a while. I would have done the same as you though in terms of volunteering. Something's you just can't explain.

Wayne Dobbs
05-31-2015, 10:52 AM
Regarding leadership in LE and the "training" for same. I've seen a couple of you mention "leadership training" being needed in LE and Warren Wilson mentioned that he intended to include it in his Captain's promotional process essay. I think that to a large extent, training for leadership is another boondoggle such as community policing, problem solving, social work for cops, etc. In other words, a monstrous waste of time and money. Here's why and I hope I can get this done without wasting too much time and space.

First, many if not most LE bosses (and other political creatures) think they're leaders by virtue of their rank, status or position. That is their most significant failing and mistake and is foundational to our problems in policing today. Most of those guys have NEVER led anything...they've bossed or managed it by ordering folks around or passing down programs that are useless. They are MANAGERS or BOSSES, but they are in no way leaders. I've had dozens of bosses and exactly three leaders (that outranked me) during my career. That should be a clue to all of us. Leaders inspire by example, integrity, experience, judgment and conduct. In other words, we want to go make something happen because of what we see in those guys and gals. They don't have to tell us much, other than to point us towards a problem and let us take care of it. Bosses/managers have to stay on top of things because as managers, they really don't trust their people or believe in them. True leaders have developed their people in various ways to go and do the job and they trust that those troops are going to do exactly that.

To a huge extent, you can't put on training to make that happen to managers. They are what they are and no amount of classroom or role play time is going to fix that. We develop leaders by first of all having leaders at two ultra critical spots in a PD: FTOs and Sergeants. FTOs must be strong leaders and practitioners of our craft because they're literally raising kids. Bad upbringing begets bad cops and all those "managers" later on! Those FTOs should be strong in character, job knowledge and tactical skills. They should absolutely love the job and taking care of the people we deal with on the job, both good and bad. They are the great Dads....or the bad ones. We get much of what we have because of those FTOs.

Sergeants are next, because they are the next set of parents out there. They should lead by example in the same way FTOs do, but with a different spin. They have the daunting task of "keeping us between the ditches" (to use a Texan expression) as we deliver police service after field training and before any promotions. Show me a great Sergeant and I'll typically show you a great policing unit that he or she supervises and leads.

Finally, I've mentioned the job and its priorities in the past. We've forgotten our way in policing. We cannot make everybody happy and we cannot solve societal problems to any extent. We should not be wasting time on those processes either. We are here to project a force vector into our communities to maintain order, enforce the law and provide some limited services. We should be doing nothing but this and selecting/developing folks to do those tasks. It will take 15-20 years to turn this ship around, but we're not likely to do it.

So...to do "leadership training", fix your important functions of FTOs and Sergeants first. Don't be afraid to get rid of folks during field training that aren't going to make it. Don't be afraid to demand high integrity from all (and equally as much from the command ranks as the lower ones) and to swiftly get rid of those whose integrity is clearly wrong. Once you do these steps, you'll have plenty of leaders, whether they've promoted or not. Get to work!

SouthNarc
05-31-2015, 11:32 AM
Rock on Wayne!

OnionsAndDragons
05-31-2015, 11:37 AM
Wayne,

I think your points are very salient. You can't generally "fix" the upper or even middle manager by giving them leadership training. Maybe a few that really want to lead but are just not confident or haven't recognized the opportunities to do so, but not most.

But, you mention the points of contact that have the greatest effect long term: Sgts and FTOs; these people mold the future of any department or agency. If better care can be taken to get and keep good leaders into these positions, some of the problem will resolve organically over time.

Is it not possible that good leadership training focused on those two points could yield dividends?

I just want to be clear that when I'm saying leadership, we are on the same page. My definition of leadership is character that inspires others to like action, which seems to be where you are coming from with the term.

Frankly, it is something that I feel our entire nation is lacking in from the top-down.


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GardoneVT
05-31-2015, 12:26 PM
So...to do "leadership training", fix your important functions of FTOs and Sergeants first. Don't be afraid to get rid of folks during field training that aren't going to make it. Don't be afraid to demand high integrity from all (and equally as much from the command ranks as the lower ones) and to swiftly get rid of those whose integrity is clearly wrong. Once you do these steps, you'll have plenty of leaders, whether they've promoted or not. Get to work!

I don't have an opinion on the merits of that point, as frankly I'm unqualified to have one with regards to LE. I do quote this passage in light of a question brought up at my local citizens' academy regarding staffing.

My small town PD cheif was asked what the current staff levels were for his department. The answer : he has no problem getting applicants. But 95% are DQ'd before they even get to the exam,orals, etc. Being that he runs a small PD it isnt a serious problem yet as he'll have a twenty person applicant pool for one spot, but he mentioned that many larger agencies nearby are hurting because once the due diligence is finished, there's one basically qualified guy or gal standing out of fifty and the agency needs more bodies to do its job.

All that is background for this question-how can larger agencies balance the need to select people of the caliber you mentioned, whilst also being able to remain adequately staffed?

Wayne Dobbs
05-31-2015, 02:26 PM
I don't have an opinion on the merits of that point, as frankly I'm unqualified to have one with regards to LE. I do quote this passage in light of a question brought up at my local citizens' academy regarding staffing.

My small town PD cheif was asked what the current staff levels were for his department. The answer : he has no problem getting applicants. But 95% are DQ'd before they even get to the exam,orals, etc. Being that he runs a small PD it isnt a serious problem yet as he'll have a twenty person applicant pool for one spot, but he mentioned that many larger agencies nearby are hurting because once the due diligence is finished, there's one basically qualified guy or gal standing out of fifty and the agency needs more bodies to do its job.

All that is background for this question-how can larger agencies balance the need to select people of the caliber you mentioned, whilst also being able to remain adequately staffed?

They most likely can't. How's that for a truthful answer?

Gadfly
05-31-2015, 02:32 PM
If you lower the standard, the police and the public suffer. Better to be short staffed than to let in someone who would tarnish the badge.

Look a New Orleans a few years back. And the surge of Border Patrol hiring 10 years back. When you lower the standard or rush folks through, it can be an issue. BP actually had people arrested for outstanding warrants while in the academy, because they were rushing people through without completing the background check...

The solution to attract better applicants? Better pay, better bennifits... Better treatment from the media and public? How else do you attract talent that may otherwise seek greener pastures in the private sector?

MDS
05-31-2015, 06:55 PM
How else do you attract talent that may otherwise seek greener pastures in the private sector?

Wait, are you joining SouthNarc and me in calling for the privatization of police? ;)

These are tough questions in any circumstances. With a natural monopoly like the police business, they are orders of magnitude more difficult. Libertarian pipe dreams aside, this open, honest, transparent discussion can only help, even if the showing of warts can be embarrassing in the short term.

And yeah, I think I'd rather have a lesser quantity of high-quality police than vice versa. Are there any tasks performed by police that could be farmed out to a cadre of not-quite-police, people who can take reports and etc but can't make arrests, aren't armed, etc?

BehindBlueI's
05-31-2015, 07:05 PM
Wait, are you joining SouthNarc and me in calling for the privatization of police? ;)

These are tough questions in any circumstances. With a natural monopoly like the police business, they are orders of magnitude more difficult. Libertarian pipe dreams aside, this open, honest, transparent discussion can only help, even if the showing of warts can be embarrassing in the short term.

And yeah, I think I'd rather have a lesser quantity of high-quality police than vice versa. Are there any tasks performed by police that could be farmed out to a cadre of not-quite-police, people who can take reports and etc but can't make arrests, aren't armed, etc?

Yes. We use civilian accident investigators. Civilian employees take some non priority reports over the phone. Unfortunately due to a hiring freeze, we don't have enough of them either.

MDS
05-31-2015, 07:25 PM
Yes. We use civilian accident investigators. Civilian employees take some non priority reports over the phone. Unfortunately due to a hiring freeze, we don't have enough of them either.
Gotcha, thanks.

GardoneVT
05-31-2015, 07:41 PM
Gotcha, thanks.

For another example- my Sheriff's Dept. has an "Old Guys' Squad"-the official name escapes me-who are staffed with retired LEOs and Veterans. They use a county car, county uniform, but are volunteers that take reports for escaped cattle, broken signs,etc. Serious stuff they call a full time deputy for, but otherwise they simply address the mundane . According to the Dept, the work they did saved the county about $60,000 worth of overtime-which hereabouts is the salary for a full time deputy.

Drang
05-31-2015, 08:04 PM
For another example- my Sheriff's Dept. has an "Old Guys' Squad"-the official name escapes me-who are staffed with retired LEOs and Veterans. They use a county car, county uniform, but are volunteers that take reports for escaped cattle, broken signs,etc. Serious stuff they call a full time deputy for, but otherwise they simply address the mundane . According to the Dept, the work they did saved the county about $60,000 worth of overtime-which hereabouts is the salary for a full time deputy.

Locally, some departments have "VIPs" -- "Volunteers In Policing". Mostly retirees, although I'm not sure any of them are retired LEOs. In some municipalities, that's who does fingerprinting for CPLs and the like.

MDS
05-31-2015, 08:10 PM
For another example- my Sheriff's Dept. has an "Old Guys' Squad"-the official name escapes me-who are staffed with retired LEOs and Veterans. They use a county car, county uniform, but are volunteers that take reports for escaped cattle, broken signs,etc. Serious stuff they call a full time deputy for, but otherwise they simply address the mundane . According to the Dept, the work they did saved the county about $60,000 worth of overtime-which hereabouts is the salary for a full time deputy.
Now that I think of it, Tallahassee has civvie report takers as well. Or had, this was early 90's. I called to report a home burglary, and while the cops were en route, the asshole came back through the bathroom window. Civvie arrived, saw me sitting on the asshole, and drove off until a couple of uniforms showed up. I bet it's hard to find a good balance where the civvie assistants only go to calls where cops aren't needed.... I can imagine it wouldn't have looked good, for example, if that asshole, who actually had a serious rap sheet and several federal and out-of-state warrants, would have hurt me when I tried to detain him.

Warren Wilson
05-31-2015, 09:42 PM
Wayne Dobbs, I enjoyed your post and we are very much in agreement. We can't fix broken administrations by putting them in a classroom. They're beyond help. As you say, it will take a generation of time after the fixes are in place before we start to see a turnaround. I do believe there are skills that can be learned early in a cop's management career which can make him/her more effective. You can't teach decency and work ethic, of course. Speaking only of my department: what we're NOT doing isn't working.

The guy who will probably be the next chief of our department was on the SWAT team before I was. He made sergeant directly after I did even though he'd been there a lot longer. He was not classy about my scoring higher than him. I was about to get on the team as a sergeant and he told me I was making a mistake. I was confused. He said he was getting off the team before anyone started holding him accountable for what the team did. He quit and went on to make captain after just a few years of playing golf with the right people. Now, he sits on the promotional board. Anyway...I overheard him regaling people in the Citizen Police Academy the other day of being a "Team Leader" when he was in SWAT. Of course, he is one of the few administrators in the department who reads management books and espouses principles he will never fully understand due to his character.

catatonic
05-31-2015, 09:59 PM
I guess I'm insane for actively seeking full time LEO work. ;)

Trooper224
06-01-2015, 12:52 AM
I guess I'm insane for actively seeking full time LEO work. ;)

At least you're self aware enough to realize it.

catatonic
06-01-2015, 12:56 AM
At least you're self aware enough to realize it.
I have no delusions of what it is. I wasn't bullied during school and want revenge. I don't think a badge and a gun is gonna make me superman.

Done it .mil side. If only I can find somewhere to hire me without having to pay my own way through certification I'd be set. Gotta love living rural.

BigDaddy
06-01-2015, 04:07 PM
If I may add my humble words I will say this. I have been a Policeman in a major city for well over thirty years. It is still the best job in the world. I have been shot twice and involved in three gun battles. I have seen the usual things that all cops have like the battered woman, child abuse (big time). Worked midnights (I hated it) weekends and almost every holiday you can think of. There have been times I really thought about quitting, not because of the street but the bosses, the system. But I never did. SOME of what Yeager said is true. But if I had to do it all over again,I would do it in a heart beat. The job has changed. Big time. Yet it remains the same. No matter how much technology changes things, no matter how much the politicians try to make your job almost impossible, it still boils down to street cops and hard nosed dics finding and taking bad guys off the streets-sometimes the hard way.
Catatonic - Take the job. You won't regret it and if by some miracle you do, then you can go do something else. There is no better feeling in the world than when you get to lockup a bad guy. And when I say bad guy I don't mean some kid with a joint.

Trooper224
06-02-2015, 02:58 AM
Read through this thread, or any other dealing with the subject and you'll see the same thing. It isn't the job itself that does us in. Amost without fail it's the sociopathic leadership that seems to be the norm. Cowards get into law enforcement. Unfortunately most of them get promoted.

LtDave
06-02-2015, 08:48 PM
Read through this thread, or any other dealing with the subject and you'll see the same thing. It isn't the job itself that does us in. Amost without fail it's the sociopathic leadership that seems to be the norm. Cowards get into law enforcement. Unfortunately most of them get promoted.

My theory is that they realize they are not cut out for doing the work and promote to avoid getting themselves killed. The ones I have known personally were book smart, but did not have the stomach for the work and guts enough to quit and seek other employment. Once in a while, a piss poor street cop turned into a decent manager.

KevinB
06-03-2015, 08:35 AM
My theory is that they realize they are not cut out for doing the work and promote to avoid getting themselves killed. The ones I have known personally were book smart, but did not have the stomach for the work and guts enough to quit and seek other employment. Once in a while, a piss poor street cop turned into a decent manager.

Other issues - Do'ers do - and like to do. A lot of excellent street folks stay in a position as they feel they can do more good. The unfortunate aspect of that, is the "undo'ers" end up filling vacancies...
Then your entire leadership chain gets corrupted, as some of them see their own flaws and actively target the do'ers as they feel inadequate and don't want to be replaced. Instead of using the Do'ers as a positive to built them and their entity up - they fail to see if they get rid of the do'ers that then nothing gets done...

I'm watching an incident like this unfold currently in the NoVA area, it's sad (and Federal)

HCM
06-03-2015, 08:42 AM
Other issues - Do'ers do - and like to do. A lot of excellent street folks stay in a position as they feel they can do more good. The unfortunate aspect of that, is the "undo'ers" end up filling vacancies...
Then your entire leadership chain gets corrupted, as some of them see their own flaws and actively target the do'ers as they feel inadequate and don't want to be replaced. Instead of using the Do'ers as a positive to built them and their entity up - they fail to see if they get rid of the do'ers that then nothing gets done...

I'm watching an incident like this unfold currently in the NoVA area, it's sad (and Federal)

Kevin - this is VERY familiar - and I'm not in NOVA.

JHC
06-03-2015, 08:43 AM
If I may add my humble words I will say this. I have been a Policeman in a major city for well over thirty years. It is still the best job in the world. I have been shot twice and involved in three gun battles. I have seen the usual things that all cops have like the battered woman, child abuse (big time). Worked midnights (I hated it) weekends and almost every holiday you can think of. There have been times I really thought about quitting, not because of the street but the bosses, the system. But I never did. SOME of what Yeager said is true. But if I had to do it all over again,I would do it in a heart beat. The job has changed. Big time. Yet it remains the same. No matter how much technology changes things, no matter how much the politicians try to make your job almost impossible, it still boils down to street cops and hard nosed dics finding and taking bad guys off the streets-sometimes the hard way.
Catatonic - Take the job. You won't regret it and if by some miracle you do, then you can go do something else. There is no better feeling in the world than when you get to lockup a bad guy. And when I say bad guy I don't mean some kid with a joint.


You remind me of that scene in the tank battle movie "Fury" - "Best job I ever had."

I'm grateful to you and all like you.

Surf
06-03-2015, 02:46 PM
I don't post much in the LE section as my agency has become quite draconian in their policies and they are very left leaning to begin with. I had 4 other paragraphs typed but decided against posting it. I have always been very low conflict on forums (not worth my time), but in real life I am outspoken and have found myself sidelined for a cumulation of days. Been sued (all wins, but are really loses as far as your life goes), taken days but at the same time am highly decorated, highly credentialed and recognized by my agency and the courts. The love ya when they need ya, but love to hate you when they don't. Go figure. I am looking at retirement at the end of the year with 26 years. Most go 30+ around here, but that is not my plan. In short, I agree with the shirt on a hanger comment.

I have seen LE go in cycles and it is in a very vicious downswing right now which I feel is a cumulation of administrations way of thinking and the public trend. I think my 11 year old son is a badass, 2 martial arts since he was 3 and 4, about to be a black belt in one when he gets age. He is a great shooter, sound tactics, great student, extremely intelligent, very humble, great athlete, widely liked, honestly about the nicest kid you could ever meet but very sharp as in streetwise (must be the mailman's kid). He would make a great cop and I know we need good people to do the job, but but I will admit that I would not encourage my own son to follow my footsteps and it has zero to do with the risk. Ask me that question 10 years ago and I would have been proud to have my son follow my footsteps, but now, from what I see, I want better for him and it is not in LE. I will also note that I have good friends who are second or third generation in this business and they feel the same way about their kids. If I cannot honestly recommend this job for my son, in good faith I cannot recommend it to others. I do however want good people to enter the profession and give all the support for those who do wish to enter. I will not however candy coat what I think the issues a new person will be facing.

45dotACP
06-03-2015, 09:04 PM
Maybe it's selfish or inconsiderate of me to say, but whenever I meet a good person who wants to get into LE, I actively encourage them to. I'm not a cop, never have been and likely will never understand the issues in police work, but it's not gonna be fixed if I try to dissuade good men and snicker as an asshole takes a LE job and perpetuates his assholery for 20-30 years...

Because of all you LEO'S, I am safe, and I'd much prefer the good cops I've met and interacted with be the norm.

Peally
06-04-2015, 11:07 AM
Fair enough but I don't remember a time where I've met someone that actually had the job recommending it for anyone. Best I've heard is someone already working at getting hired receiving a well meaning "good luck"

I was always told if I want to make the non-stupid decision go be a fireman ;)

LSP972
06-04-2015, 01:05 PM
I was always told if I want to make the non-stupid decision go be a fireman ;)

Yeah, but the problem there is... there are two kinds of people who make their living on their backs. Firemen, and... well, you know.:D

Its all in fun, of course; but how many times have you gone into a firehouse (especially on dog shift) and found everybody z'ed out?

Right, they earn it at fires... but your average observer would think that all firemen do is cook/eat, work out, sleep, and wash their trucks...;)

.

Coyotesfan97
06-04-2015, 02:04 PM
Yeah, but the problem there is... there are two kinds of people who make their living on their backs. Firemen, and... well, you know.:D

Its all in fun, of course; but how many times have you gone into a firehouse (especially on dog shift) and found everybody z'ed out?

Right, they earn it at fires... but your average observer would think that all firemen do is cook/eat, work out, sleep, and wash their trucks...;)

.

Let's not forget the Xbox and Netlix time

Gadfly
06-04-2015, 03:11 PM
the life of a Fireman...

Eat until you're sleepy, sleep until you're hungry. Repeat for 20 years. Retire. :cool:

Bigguy
06-04-2015, 03:49 PM
Fresh out of college, one of my frat brothers became an Arkansas State Trooper. He had only been in a few months but was all hot and bothered for me to apply. I declined. That made him mad because he thought that I thought I was too good to be a cop. Nothing was further from the truth. I had a mental image in my mind of what a police officer should be, and I knew that I didn’t fit that image. Truth be told, my frat brother didn’t either. All through college he was full of BS, "I’m going to be Special Forces" bravado. And he was far more impressed with his skills with fire arms than the rest of us were. He never showed empathy or compassion toward other people. When I found out he became a cop, I assumed it all power trip.
But as the years went by, he surprised me. He eventually left law enforcement. But by the time he did, he had become exactly the type of person I believed should be a cop. He could still have fun with friends, but he was sober and serious when he needed to be. I have no doubt he could do any of the nasty stuff that needed to be done, but he never bragged about it. The thing that amazed me was his attitude toward other people. He really seemed to feel for the victims of some of the stuff he’d seen. It bothered him. But even more amazing, he seemed to be willing to even give somebody who messed the moral benefit of the doubt. Don’t get me wrong, they were taking the ride. But I’ve seen him check up on people he’d arrested once they got out, offering to help them in any way he could. I’ve seen him take food and Christmas gifts to the kids of some of them. He even called me once to see if I had a job opening for somebody.
This just wasn’t the guy I remember from school.
This was in the mid 70s. I don’t know how much things have changed. But I know that the job turned at least one loud mouth braggart into a darn fine human being. Looking back, maybe I should have applied.

BehindBlueI's
06-04-2015, 07:51 PM
Truth be told, my frat brother didn’t either. All through college he was full of BS, "I’m going to be Special Forces" bravado. And he was far more impressed with his skills with fire arms than the rest of us were. He never showed empathy or compassion toward other people.

He was still a kid. Most of us are, and huge idiots and/or a-holes at that age. I joined the military at 18, but we're the same. Full of swagger and we don't know what we don't know. At that age I wanted to screw, drink, and blow things up (in no particular order). Any department that would have hired me when I was in my early 20's would have gotten exactly what they deserved for having such a lax hiring process. :D

The folks who get hired really young often have the hardest time acclimating, and they seem to leave more often. Guys hired closer to 30 have a bit more decision making skills, a more developed frontal lobe, and tend to do a bit better. Regardless, LE will either mature you or break you real quick. Sometimes both.

LSP552
06-04-2015, 07:56 PM
He was still a kid. Most of us are, and huge idiots and/or a-holes at that age. I joined the military at 18, but we're the same. Full of swagger and we don't know what we don't know. At that age I wanted to screw, drink, and blow things up (in no particular order). Any department that would have hired me when I was in my early 20's would have gotten exactly what they deserved for having such a lax hiring process. :D

The folks who get hired really young often have the hardest time acclimating, and they seem to leave more often. Guys hired closer to 30 have a bit more decision making skills, a more developed frontal lobe, and tend to do a bit better. Regardless, LE will either mature you or break you real quick. Sometimes both.

I was an Army MP at 19. I'm sure I was mature....despite what my Platoon Sgt might have thought.

BehindBlueI's
06-04-2015, 08:04 PM
I was an Army MP at 19. I'm sure I was mature....despite what my Platoon Sgt might have thought.

Yeah, what do those old men (probably in their 30s) know anyway, right?

psalms144.1
06-05-2015, 09:04 PM
Yeah, what do those old men (probably in their 30s) know anyway, right?When I was a young DUMB 2LT, fresh off receiving my Expert Infantryman's Badge and feeling my oats, I was in "the old man" (Company Commander's) office. We were table-top war-gaming some up coming field exercise, and, of course, I knew a better way to pull off the plan, and let him know it. I remember at one point I said something like "in deference to your advanced rank AND AGE, I'll follow your plan..."

He couldn't have been 30 - probably more like 27-28 (which seemed ancient at the time). He calmly and politely invited me to get my PT gear on and meet him outside. About two hours and multiple involuntary regurgitations later, I'd learned the error of my ways. Pain retains!

BigDaddy
06-06-2015, 04:56 PM
Maybe it's selfish or inconsiderate of me to say, but whenever I meet a good person who wants to get into LE, I actively encourage them to. I'm not a cop, never have been and likely will never understand the issues in police work, but it's not gonna be fixed if I try to dissuade good men and snicker as an asshole takes a LE job and perpetuates his assholery for 20-30 years...

Because of all you LEO'S, I am safe, and I'd much prefer the good cops I've met and interacted with be the norm.

As I said previously, it is a great job. I've met three Presidents one of whom walked up to me,shook my hand and thanked me for what I do. I have a very nice house in a very good neighborhood. I put my two children through school. My wife and I both have nice,late model cars. Everything I own I own because of the job. What's not to like? The job does have very dark moments from time to time. But as I said, it also has some very good high moments as well. I thank God that I was able to be a Policeman and that I was able to make a difference in some peoples lives. I would recommend this job to anyone that wants to have a career that is fun, exciting and can have a huge impact on other people. Just keep in mind that there is a lot of BS that goes along with it. Don't take it personal and when it happens, deal with it and move on. Never forget where you came from and treat people like you want to be treated. If you can do that, I think you will do well.