Trade a Sig 228 for a M11-A1?

[azerious]

Have had a few offers lately to trade my 228 for a M11-A1. Would this be a mistake? I like the idea of a stronger slide and SRT and readily available parts for the newer 229 style but trying to get more opinions

[gtmtnbiker98]

If it will be a shooter then yes, I'd trade. The all stainless slides are better able to take the abuse.

[ReverendMeat]

I traded my 228 for an M11-A1. I liked the heavier stainless slide, SRT, night sights, ability to accept the 229-1 15 round mags. For the first 500 rounds I felt I definitely made the right choice. After that the gun started having issues and is now back at the factory for a second time. I would not trade your 228 for an M11-A1 unless it's covered by their warranty (as in, buying it new).

[LSP972]

I guess it depends upon one's definition of abuse.

I have personal knowledge of dozens of P228s with well over 50K- some closer to 100K- rounds through them, all US commercial ball, that were still working fine and retained usable accuracy. IOW, very few of us will be able to shoot (abuse??) one enough to wear it out.

The P228 will carry a bit easier, because it is lighter. But here is the big deal… P228s , AFAIK, were all made in Germany and therefore are of a known quality. The M11 is just a P229 with US government marking; i.e., made here, and therefore immediately suspect… may be a "good one", may not be.

There has been a lot of digital words recently about how Sig/USA has turned their life around, putting out wonderful stuff these days, etc., etc. I bought a P229 Scorpion last year, and truth be told it was every bit as good as the pre-95 German guns I hold in such high regard.

But anyone who doesn't believe that Sig has turned out some real crap in the past 20 years, simply hasn't been paying attention.

What I'm telling you here, OP, is that you're rolling the dice with a US-made Sig pistol… especially a used one. Odds are, it will be fine. On the other hand, if its not…

.

[LSP972]

I traded my 228 for an M11-A1. I liked the heavier stainless slide, SRT, night sights, ability to accept the 229-1 15 round mags. For the first 500 rounds I felt I definitely made the right choice. After that the gun started having issues and is now back at the factory for a second time. I would not trade your 228 for an M11-A1 unless it's covered by their warranty (as in, buying it new).

And I rest my case.

RM, sorry to hear this. I put about 500 rounds through that Scorpion before trading it… I wonder if it was getting ready to start choking on me???

.

[ReverendMeat]

You never know, but I just feel particularly unlucky. The most annoying part is that I just can not figure out what's causing the issues--roughly equal numbers of failures to feed and failures to extract with multiple types of ammo and four separate magazines. Corrective action taken on the first trip back included polishing the feed ramp and replacing the magazine and extractor spring. Test fired 50 rounds with no issues and sent back but the same failures still occur, MRBS of ~106 since the problems first started.

I think I've got a few more gray hairs since buying the thing.

[Yute]

If your P228 works well, I would not. I know a lot of people have had no issues with the long extractor, but I had nothing but issues with it on my P229 on different magazines and even a new slide. Sent it back to sig and they changed the extractor spring configuration. But by that I had given up on the platform - sold it, and went back to a Glock.

[Sensei]

There have been several recent threads on the P228 vs M11A1. This one in particular comes to mind:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15440-Sig-M11a1/page5&highlight=P228

I took from those discussions that the M11A1 was a more durable design in the eyes of some of the forum SME's. Having said that, I'm the happy owner of a few P228s that have served me well and I have a M11A1 that had passed muster. Thus, I see no reason to trade a performing pistol unless you have some other compelling reason.

[Jeep]

Where I live, new M11-A1's cost probably $250 more than 228's, which of course are all used. A lightly used M11-A1 would thus probably go for more than a 228.

However, I know at least one guy who bought an M11-A1 in the last year who has had trouble with it, and I've shot one that has a far-too-heavy double action trigger pull. They are nice guns in theory, but like LSP 972 I have some doubts about the consistency of their build quality.

[psalms144.1]

I would not trade a P228 on anything made by Sig since 2005 or so, but that's just my opinion, based on a series of unfortunate experiences with Sig over the last decade.

My issued M11 (P228) had been in service for nearly 20 years, and I shot WELL over 40K rounds through mine in the last four years of its service life, and never had an issue with it. In fact, if my HQ would issue me one of the small number of M11s they have laying around, I would trade them my currently issued P229R DAK in .40 S&W in a NY minute...

[David S.]

I would not trade a P228 on anything made by Sig since 2005 or so, but that's just my opinion, based on a series of unfortunate experiences with Sig over the last decade.

Just a counter point, FWIW. Bruce Gray, his crew, and the folks over at SigForum (all, dare I say, SIG fanboys) all acknowledge that there were real QC issues for several years at SIG. I even seem to recall reading an interview that a SF staff had with Sig management that acknowledged the same. They all believe that SIG turned the corner a couple of years ago with their classic and polymer lines. . . diamond plate and rainbow finishes be damned. The consensus seems to be that SIG is making as good or better pistols than they ever have. I've certainly been happy with my 2013ish P226 and P224.

That said, I don't blame psalms144.1 and others for feeling they've been burned one too many times.

Cheers,
D

[Jeep]

I would not trade a P228 on anything made by Sig since 2005 or so, but that's just my opinion, based on a series of unfortunate experiences with Sig over the last decade.

My issued M11 (P228) had been in service for nearly 20 years, and I shot WELL over 40K rounds through mine in the last four years of its service life, and never had an issue with it. In fact, if my HQ would issue me one of the small number of M11s they have laying around, I would trade them my currently issued P229R DAK in .40 S&W in a NY minute...

Uncle Sam provided you with 10,000 rounds per year? I'm impressed. Back in the day it occasionally allowed us to look at a live .45 round for a short time if we behaved ourselves, but actual shooting could get the pistols dirty.

[psalms144.1]

Uncle Sam provided you with 10,000 rounds per year? I'm impressed. Back in the day it occasionally allowed us to look at a live .45 round for a short time if we behaved ourselves, but actual shooting could get the pistols dirty.I was the ammunition custodian for my office, and "inherited" about 60,000 rounds of ammo that had been sitting in our bunker for years and years. I worked my way through a lot of it before I transferred out...

[Jeep]

So, in the interest of safety, you kept that ammunition from . . . um, becoming unstable or something . . . thereby protecting the taxpayers' from potentially enormous liabilities as well! That is real self-sacrifice. Well done!

[psalms144.1]

So, in the interest of safety, you kept that ammunition from . . . um, becoming unstable or something . . . thereby protecting the taxpayers' from potentially enormous liabilities as well! That is real self-sacrifice. Well done!Kidding aside, you should see the condition of some of the ammunition we get issued. HEAVY corrosion on cases and green verdigris on bullets. My most recent shipment of .45 FMJ has headstamps from 1988; and we're still shooting up .38 special ammunition from before that. Our "freshest" 9mm JHP is 1998 loadings.

And, yes, I do everything in my power to keep it all from getting too "stale"

[Jeep]

Kidding aside, you should see the condition of some of the ammunition we get issued. HEAVY corrosion on cases and green verdigris on bullets. My most recent shipment of .45 FMJ has headstamps from 1988; and we're still shooting up .38 special ammunition from before that. Our "freshest" 9mm JHP is 1998 loadings.



Sounds like they are storing it underwater. Can you tell us who you work with?

[psalms144.1]

I work for the Department of the Navy. Not quite underwater, but most of our bases are coastal, and NONE of our ammunition bunkers that I know of are climate controlled...

[ReverendMeat]

Quick update on my M11-A1.

After first trip back to factory didn't fix feeding and extracting failures, sent it back again. 1 week turnaround time but according to the invoice nothing was done besides test fire 100 rounds, unable to duplicate failures. Trading it tomorrow for a G17.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Just a counter point, FWIW. Bruce Gray, his crew, and the folks over at SigForum (all, dare I say, SIG fanboys) all acknowledge that there were real QC issues for several years at SIG. I even seem to recall reading an interview that a SF staff had with Sig management that acknowledged the same. They all believe that SIG turned the corner a couple of years ago with their classic and polymer lines. . . diamond plate and rainbow finishes be damned. The consensus seems to be that SIG is making as good or better pistols than they ever have. I've certainly been happy with my 2013ish P226 and P224.

That said, I don't blame psalms144.1 and others for feeling they've been burned one too many times.

Cheers,
D

This has been my understanding as well.

I've got an old German 226 w unknown count, flawless; a late 2013s 226 with about 5500 w no issues, and a 320 with about 1500 also no issues.

I went through 3 938s a few years ago and could not get any of them to reliably feed, polished feed ramps be damned.


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[Rich]

Have had a few offers lately to trade my 228 for a M11-A1. Would this be a mistake? I like the idea of a stronger slide and SRT and readily available parts for the newer 229 style but trying to get more opinions

For a new in box M11 -A1 yes If my P228 was well worn

[CSW]

I'll vote no.
I've owned a Sig P228 since 1990. Thousands of rounds, and short of a recoil spring or two and a set of sights, not a single issue.
I've also owned an M11A1. They are NOT the same gun, even tho Sig's commercial hype says so.
The P228 is lighter in feel to me, perhaps 'sleeker', the M11a1 felt clunky to me.
The M11 did have an awesome SRT trigger, and broke very predictably. Accuracy of both guns was about the same in my eyes.
I sold the M11, but kept the P228.

[LSP972]

The P228 is lighter in feel to me, perhaps 'sleeker', the M11a1 felt clunky to me.


Exactly. The commercial M11 is a P229; which is not a P228. My comparison of the two mirrors yours. The P229/M11A1 is a very nice pistol (if you have one that works)… but it ain't no P228 in terms of "carryability". To me, the added weight and slide thickness of the later guns is a deal-breaker for concealed carry.

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[CSW]

And the thing is, I owned a P229 in .40 smith years ago, and my recollection of that gun wasn't as thick as the m11a1. At 52 I can't remember a lot of things, but it just didn't seem as big. The m11a1 to me was akin to holding a short gripped 226. Does that make sense?

[LSP972]

All I can tell you is, I briefly owned a P229 9mm Scorpion, and compared it side-by-side with an M11A1 the day I bought it. Except for the flared beavertail, which I certainly could have done without, and the G10 stocks on the Scorpion, the two pistols seemed identical to me… and definitely thicker and heavier than the P228s I was intimately familiar with back in the day.

.

[ReverendMeat]

And the thing is, I owned a P229 in .40 smith years ago, and my recollection of that gun wasn't as thick as the m11a1. At 52 I can't remember a lot of things, but it just didn't seem as big. The m11a1 to me was akin to holding a short gripped 226. Does that make sense?

Not really. The M11A1 is a 9mm P229 which if anything is going to be smaller than a .40 229, at least in terms of the slide thickness. M11A1 grip panels fit any 229 (.40 included) as well as 228s. The magazines will be different but not in such a way that will change the feel of the grip.

[ClintHall]

Resurrecting an old thread because I'm facing the same choice between a P228 and an M11A1.

I've recently come into possession of both a M11A1 (manf 05/2013) and a made-in-Germany, assembled-in-Exeter P228 (manf 2000). Both were purchased used. Both wear G10 grips. Both have SRT guts. M11A1 has the short reach trigger; P228 has the Grayguns adjustable intermediate trigger. I have small hands (wear a size S glove) and find the Grayguns trigger much less comfortable than the short reach trigger. Trigger pull on the M11A1 is substantially smoother than that on the P228--the P228 trigger is pretty gritty and will need some work. For whatever reason, the M11A1 seems to point slightly better for me.

Digital kitchen scale shows weights as follows:
M11A1: 29.9 oz (w/ empty mag inserted, G10 grips); slide: 15.24 oz; frame: 11.75 oz
P228: 29.5 oz (w/ empty mag inserted, G10 grips); slide: 14.36 oz; frame: 12.13 oz

Have put a whopping 75 rounds through the (well-lubed) M11a1, during which I had two failures to extract with Winchester white box. That's a tiny sample, yes, and WWB isn't good ammo, but nearly every gun I've had has eaten it like candy. Those failures out-of-the-gate, plus similar stories here and elsewhere, give me pause about choosing it over the P228.

Here're the candidates, plus a bonus shot of my P239 w/freshly installed SRT:

12275

12276

12277

[L-2]

1. Don't sell any of them, but if you must, make it the M11-A1 as it's not working 100%.
2. Otherwise, I'd shoot ~1,000 rounds through the M11-A1 to determine if the malfunctions occur again. If they malfunctions get worse, stop shooting.
3. If there are malfunctions, fix it. Then try shooting 1,000 rounds again. I just like 1,000 as a good round number which I'd likely do in two consecutive days as I shoot a lot. If you feel comfortable shooting less, that's fine, too.
4. I'd suspect it's the long extractor as I had problems with my long extractor in my P226R. For me, I took a chance and replaced the two extractor springs myself which cured the problem. If it didn't, I'd have sent the gun back to SIG.

[MGW]

I vote Karma the M11. To me.

[jwperry]

I've converted my 2 M11A1 pistols into P228/M11A1 hybrids.

I prefer the recoil characteristics of the carbon slides and the balance. I feel the P228 guns balance better and for me, point better.

If you want to keep the P228, sell the GG trigger and convert the mainspring to the E2 mainspring. Getting rid of the longer mainspring seat and over-greasing the mainspring assembly really helped smooth up my older Sig triggers.

[Jeep]

If you have small hands, I'd say keep the 228, convert to the new mainspring as jwperry suggests (easy to do) and go with an E2 grip as well.

The 228 is a sweet pistol; they are going up in value, and with the E2 grips they fit smaller hands nicely.

[spinmove_]

What L-2 said. Although I'd get the short reach trigger for the P228 and just swap the extractor and springs on the M11.

[ClintHall]

Really appreciate the responses, fellas. Where can I get the extractor springs?


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[spinmove_]

http://www.topgunsupply.com/gun-parts/sig-sauer-parts/shop-sig-sauer-gun-parts-by-model/sig-sauer-p228-gun-parts.html


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[ClintHall]

Extractor springs for the M11A1 have arrived--will run down to LGS and get 'em installed in a couple weeks.

Per the suggestion here, I put an E2 kit into the P228 tonight. Substantially improved the trigger pull--so much so that it's now better than the M11A1. Thanks!

[SWAT Lt.]

Although I prefer striker fired guns, I wanted a hammer fired gun last year and considered HK P-30, Beretta, and SIG (have had them all in the past). Went with the Beretta 92A1. Didn't really dig it like I thought I would and sold it. Bought a new M11A1 and took it to the range. FTExtract in the first 500 rds. Sent it back to SIG who replaced the extractor & springs. No issues in the 600 or so rounds since. The sights are well regulated for 124 grain ammo but high with 147. I am happy with it as long as it continues to run well.

I still carry and prefer the G19 Gen4, and the vast majority of my range time is spent shooting Glocks (or the occasional Shield, M&P, or S&W revolver).

[ClintHall]

Managed to get to the range with both the P228 and the M11A1 today--I wanted to do a side-by-side comparison between the P228 with the Grayguns P-SAIT and Hogue aluminum grips vs the M11A1 with E2 grips and the short reach trigger. It was immediately apparent that the E2 grips are the better choice for my small hands--the gun sits higher and is easier to control, as it feels like I've got more forearm behind the gun. I suck, but the M11A1 made me suck less.

I came home and put the E2 grips on the P228. Interestingly, the P228 and the M11A1 didn't seem to balance very differently when both wore Hogue G10s, they feel very different when wearing E2s. Funny how subjective this stuff is. Still need to shoot them side-by-side to see whether to keep the P-SAIT, which is a bit of a stretch for my finger, even with the E2. Trigger pull is definitely smoother than with the M11A1, though.

One more thing--the P228 had another failure to extract with Win white box, for a total of 2 out of 155 rounds. I switched to Remington green box and put about 100 rounds through it with no issues. I also put 100 rounds of Remington green box through the M11A1 with no issues. I'll stick with Remington for a while and see if any problems resume.

[MGW]

For what it's worth, the FTE's I've had with my 229-1 were all with win brass. At least the failures that I could check the suspect brass on.

[SCSU74]

the way I look at it you aren't able to walk into a store and buy a 228, you can walk into any sig dealer and buy a 229 (which a m11-a1 is). I would not trade, wouldn't even be a hard choice.

[ClintHall]

P228 is finally set up right. Had to get Trijicon HD rear re-installed by gunsmith, as it was drifting leftward under recoil. Swapped out the Grayguns trigger for the factory short trigger. Ready to vet the thing and put it to work.


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[ClintHall]

Price check -- have gotten a trade offer for the M11a1-- fella is offering a 1991-make W. German P226 with 5K round count. Bluing looks good; it was sent to Sig around ten years ago for spring-replacement/inspection. He's offering the gun, three mags, and $200 in trade. Fair swap?

[taadski]

Price check -- have gotten a trade offer for the M11a1-- fella is offering a 1991-make W. German P226 with 5K round count. Bluing looks good; it was sent to Sig around ten years ago for spring-replacement/inspection. He's offering the gun, three mags, and $200 in trade. Fair swap?


I'd ask you what you're looking to accomplish with the swap? If commonality is important to you, I'd stick with the two compact sizes guns and keep the 228 and M11 and shoot the shit out of them. The 226 handles, loads and shoots enough differently for *me* that I prefer to be dedicated to one or the other. Granted that comes from a "whittling on the minutae" perspective.

Re just the price? It's on the edge of doable, IMO. The reason I say that is one can find REALLY good deals on older trade-in stamped slide Sigs if you're patient and know where to look. In particular if you're willing to convert them over to DA/SA from a DAK system. I've purchased multiples in the $400-450 range, FWIW. Given the price point on the newer Sigs, I think you could probably do a bit better than the mentioned deal. Unless of course you just want out of the M11A1.

Just 2 pesos.

[ClintHall]

Thanks for the thots, Taadski -- I held off on the deal. Was looking to have mag commonality as between the P228 and the P226, and set the P226 up as a nightstand gun.

Shot the M11A1 again tonight with Remington UMC. FTE on round 3. Not good.

Total round count (in my hands) for M11A1 now is as follows:

- 295 total.
- 117 rounds since failure
- 15 Fed HST 124 +p.
- 60 WWB. 2 FTE.
- 220 Remington Green Box. 1 FTE.

12975

After putting the 9mm through it I swapped in the .22 conversion kit and ran Remington Golden Bullet .22s. Ran far, far better than the Aguila .22 I had used before, albeit still with the occasional stovepipe and light strike.

The wisest course of action seems to be just getting the M11A1 fixed and keeping it as a training gun. It's set up nearly identically to my carry P228.

[Sauer Koch]

FWIW, my wife has an M11 A-1 that we bought early in '16. The trigger was quite heavy, which seems to be very common, so we sent it to Sig for the AEP, and had them replace the short reach trigger, with the thicker, standard type. We run 115gr Speer Lawman, CCI Blazer Brass & recently, some Sellier & Bellot FMJ, & 124gr HST, and have never had a single failure of any kind; estimated round count is about 500.
I bought a 226 last January, and it has about 2000 rounds through it, and has also never had any failures.

[taadski]

Clint, You mentioned getting the new extractor springs for the A1. Did you get them installed yet? Are these new failures with new the new springs? If not, yeah, get em changed out. It should alleviate the problems. I'd also do a good inspection of the extractor itself, just to ensure it's not chipped, severely burred or anything.


t

[ClintHall]

Thankfully, it's not with the new springs; wanted to get down to VA Arms for the swap, as I don't have the half-punch handy to do it myself. Hopefully I can get SIG to give it a look gratis.

[taadski]

Cool. Good to hear. Issues of this type in the Sigs, IME, don't sort themselves out. They aren't break-in problems, so it's usually better to just cut to the chase and get it fixed.

FWIW, I've carefully used a smaller diameter punch instead of the half punch with good success removing the extractor pin. It's a pretty straightforward quick little project if you cared to do it yourself. I'd bet it'll remedy your issues forthwith. Be happy to walk ya through it on Facetime or something too if you wanted. Drop me a PM if so.



t

[ReverendMeat]

Thankfully, it's not with the new springs; wanted to get down to VA Arms for the swap, as I don't have the half-punch handy to do it myself. Hopefully I can get SIG to give it a look gratis.

Fingers crossed that your issue will be resolved by a simple spring swap. Mine went back to SIG twice and the FTE problem persisted.

[jwperry]

Thankfully, it's not with the new springs; wanted to get down to VA Arms for the swap, as I don't have the half-punch handy to do it myself. Hopefully I can get SIG to give it a look gratis.

If you need a half punch, I have the Sig tool you can borrow.