PDA

View Full Version : Shotgun sights -- what kind and why



GJM
05-19-2015, 08:25 PM
I have some preferences, based on experience with red dot, aperture, open and bead. Interested in what others prefer and why.

MVS
05-19-2015, 08:37 PM
I have some preferences, based on experience with red dot, aperture, open and bead. Interested in what others prefer and why.

It is a shotgun, what do you need sights for? Actually I don't have a need for a shotgun, but if I was to get into them I would imagine I would look into a RDS for the same reason I use them on rifles and handguns. Willing to learn.

41magfan
05-19-2015, 08:58 PM
I often make my shorter barreled SG's do double-duty in the game field and I've grown pretty fond of these XS Big Dot Express (tritium front & rear) sights. I can hold slugs into @ 3" off-hand at 40 yards and still make a wing shot with them if necessary.

They're as fast as a bead, almost as accurate as an aperture sight out to 50 yards and they're adjustable for perfect POI. At $120 for the set, the price ain't bad either.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/673/nkDkED.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipnkDkEDj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/913/UkbiGh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pdUkbiGhj)

Tom Givens
05-19-2015, 10:05 PM
I often make my shorter barreled SG's do double-duty in the game field and I've grown pretty fond of these XS Big Dot Express (tritium front & rear) sights. I can hold slugs into @ 3" off-hand at 40 yards and still make a wing shot with them if necessary.

They're as fast as a bead, almost as accurate as an aperture sight out to 50 yards and they're adjustable for perfect POI. At $120 for the set, the price ain't bad either.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/673/nkDkED.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipnkDkEDj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/913/UkbiGh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pdUkbiGhj)

Same set up on my social shotguns. The only difference is I paint my front big dot bright red.

I find these sights very fast yet adequately precise.

DocGKR
05-20-2015, 01:19 AM
I use an RDS, just like on my pistol and carbine.

SLG
05-20-2015, 06:46 AM
RDS, then Ghost ring, then bead, then rifle sights. Never tried the XS on a SG.

JodyH
05-20-2015, 06:50 AM
XS big dot front, standard ghost ring rear on my Benelli M4.

GJM
05-20-2015, 06:57 AM
If you are primarily shooting buckshot, what is the fastest sighting system?

JodyH
05-20-2015, 07:04 AM
XS front and rear or fiber optic "bead" in my experience. I prefer XS because the Flite-Control buckshot extends the range of buckshot beyond what I'm comfortable using a bead sight for.

JodyH
05-20-2015, 07:06 AM
African dangerous game rifles have used "express" sights for 100 years because they work.

GJM
05-20-2015, 07:07 AM
XS front and rear or fiber optic "bead" in my experience. I prefer XS because the Flite-Control buckshot extends the range of buckshot beyond what I'm comfortable using a bead sight for.

So, some form of open sights is fastest with buck? At what range, do you feel uncomfortable shooting the bead or open sights?

JodyH
05-20-2015, 07:13 AM
I'm good with XS out to 50Y with FC #00. With a bead I'm not confident much past 30-35Y. But I also don't shoot beads much anymore.
My bad eyes preclude using a RDS.

GJM
05-20-2015, 07:27 AM
I'm good with XS out to 50Y with FC #00. With a bead I'm not confident much past 30-35Y. But I also don't shoot beads much anymore.
My bad eyes preclude using a RDS.

Last year, we set up a M2 20 gauge with a HD pistol front sight, and a minimal rear. It shots slugs surprisingly well at the distances I have tried -- out to 50 yards.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg5_zpsed9b9b14.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg5_zpsed9b9b14.jpg.html)

At that time, SLG said he actually shot just a bead great, which got me thinking. I am just setting up a 12 gauge M2 with a short barrel, based on a Benelli 3 Gun (it has some neat mods like a hogged out loading area). My gunsmith shot this group with just a bead front, yesterday at 25, shooting quickly, with one shot called, that he pulled down.


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FO%20sight_zpsfcr7xngw.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FO%20sight_zpsfcr7xngw.jpeg.html)

My use of a shotgun is for personal defense, bears and otherwise, and I wanted to set it up for optimal use in the distance envelope I envision. I have really come to dislike ghost ring sights, as I find them slow up close, not particularly accurate out far, and they block too much of my view down range.

Shellback
05-20-2015, 07:40 AM
Would replacing the bead on an 870 with the XS front sight be sufficient by itself for an in home gun?

GJM
05-20-2015, 07:53 AM
Would replacing the bead on an 870 with the XS front sight be sufficient by itself for an in home gun?

There was an industry guy, who will go nameless, that had an idea for a take down 870. That project cratered, for reasons unrelated to sights. However, he planned just a small Ashley little dot front sight on a bead rib, and claimed he shot A zone hits to 100 between the vertical reference of the Ashley and the windage info gained by the vent rib.

I think you would need to define your distance envelope, and then test it on your shotgun. I believe Ashley makes a small dot that epoxies over the existing bead. Based on the group my guy shot at 25 yesterday, my guess is you would be fine inside 50 yards with slugs, and optimized for buck at shot distances.

Besides speed, secondary advantages are it is inexpensive, lightweight, and gives you great down range field of view. A few runs on a plate rack at 10-25 yards, with the various sighting systems, is pretty informative.

Smash
05-20-2015, 08:20 AM
http://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8261

Plenty of options.

This is a new Mossberg model we're doing with them. It's a receiver mounted rail with express sights built in to the front of it. Option for RDS or express sights. the kit includes 3 heights of rear sights to allow for an ammo/sight height combo to your liking.
http://www.mossberg.com/product/500-persuader-with-xs-express-sights-8-shot-50569/?le=1/

They have them for the 930/500/590, the gap between the rail and the barrel is much less than their photo-representation.

jlw
05-20-2015, 08:23 AM
Due to eyesight issues, I can no longer run just a bead. I now have to have some sort of rear sight. I prefer something open, but I have wound up with several with ghost rings.

jlw
05-20-2015, 08:26 AM
Would replacing the bead on an 870 with the XS front sight be sufficient by itself for an in home gun?

Two years ago, I won a Mossy 590A1 in a drawing. I couldn't see the little bead; so, I put an XS front sight on it. It helped, but I ended up buying the ghost ring kit.

jlw
05-20-2015, 08:29 AM
http://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8261

Plenty of options.

This is a new Mossberg model we're doing with them. It's a receiver mounted rail with express sights built in to the front of it. Option for RDS or express sights. the kit includes 3 heights of rear sights to allow for an ammo/sight height combo to your liking.
http://www.mossberg.com/product/500-persuader-with-xs-express-sights-8-shot-50569/?le=1/

They have them for the 930/500/590, the gap between the rail and the barrel is much less than their photo-representation.


http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/tactical/shotguns/model-870-express-tactical-magpul.aspx

Remington does something similar. My work 870 is the model linked above.

shootist26
05-20-2015, 08:31 AM
I like rifle sights. But not the factory remington blade type rifle sights. Those are way too thin.

I like the ameriglo tritium ones. Front dot is surrounded by a high vis white ring. Rear dots are subdued yellow. Looks just like my pistol sights. Fast and accurate.

Aimpoint t1 is also good

SpyderMan2k4
05-20-2015, 08:31 AM
I'm a fan of ghost rings. Currently I've got XS on the 870 (which came that way). The 590 has the OEM ghost ring sights... Of the two, I prefer the XS and think I'm a little faster with them, but I've got a lot more time behind them too. It didn't take much time to get as fast with the XS sights as with a bead.

Shellback
05-20-2015, 08:40 AM
I think you would need to define your distance envelope, and then test it on your shotgun. I believe Ashley makes a small dot that epoxies over the existing bead. Based on the group my guy shot at 25 yesterday, my guess is you would be fine inside 50 yards with slugs, and optimized for buck at shot distances.
My guesstimate would be no greater than 50 yards. I'd be putting the sight on an 18" 870 HD that I currently own.

Two years ago, I won a Mossy 590A1 in a drawing. I couldn't see the little bead; so, I put an XS front sight on it. It helped, but I ended up buying the ghost ring kit.
Thanks for your insight.

Smash
05-20-2015, 08:43 AM
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/tactical/shotguns/model-870-express-tactical-magpul.aspx

Remington does something similar. My work 870 is the model linked above. I think the aperture is a little small for the sight at least at closer distances.

My apologies on the confusion. I am referring to the gun in the white part of the page, not the one up top.

It is open "express" sights on the muzzle end of the rail, instead of the ghost ring setup.

Irelander
05-20-2015, 08:56 AM
Regarding a home defense shotgun: A well known customizer of 870s told me that putting ghost ring sights on an HD shotgun will "get you killed". His thinking is that ghost rings create a greater amount of tunnel vision compared to open sights. He recommends a bead only sight or the XS big dot...no rear. Just passing this along as food for thought.

GJM
05-20-2015, 09:18 AM
Regarding a home defense shotgun: A well known customizer of 870s told me that putting ghost ring sights on an HD shotgun will "get you killed". His thinking is that ghost rings create a greater amount of tunnel vision compared to open sights. He recommends a bead only sight or the XS big dot...no rear. Just passing this along as food for thought.

Good thing our guys in WWII, Korea and Vietnam didn't hear that, or with their even smaller aperture sights, they would be freaked.

Kidding aside, I think there are pros and cons to each sighting system, and reasonable people can disagree as to which is best for their use.

Crusader8207
05-20-2015, 09:30 AM
I'm using the Vang Comp ghost ring with a tritium front sight. Like the set up a lot.

jlw
05-20-2015, 09:50 AM
My apologies on the confusion. I am referring to the gun in the white part of the page, not the one up top.

It is open "express" sights on the muzzle end of the rail, instead of the ghost ring setup.

Understood.

Dagga Boy
05-20-2015, 11:37 AM
I have used all of them extensively. They all have plusses and minuses.

If I am using irons on a gun that is serving in the role of both shotgun and rifle-Ghost rings.....and if you are doing it right will not cause any issues killing bad guys (or animals that have decided to show you where they think you are in the food chain).

If I am using irons on a gun that is a dedicated indoor fighting tool (which is my preferred role for the gauge) I have no issues with a bead, but today would flat build the gun around the X/S set-up which I think is the best role for express sights.

I like a small red dot. I was one of the first guys using a Aimpoint on a shotgun operationally. I had the first gun Hans Vang ever did with a rail, and ran a Comp M2 until it got a Micro. The Aimpoint Micro is downright cheating with the shotgun, and it is now my go to. Dot, press, big hole..........what is not to like. Works 24/7 (unlike the bead I really needed when it was real in total darkness), works with both eyes open, works with less than optimal cheek welds and asymmetric positions, the micro handles the battering from the gauge well, it is small and can work like a ghost ring if set up right, and it can be both fast in close and precise at distance.

DocGKR
05-20-2015, 02:42 PM
Fully concur w/Nyeti's comments re. RDS on shotguns above.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/workandplaytubes_zps379650ec.jpg

GJM
05-20-2015, 03:07 PM
I like a small red dot. I was one of the first guys using a Aimpoint on a shotgun operationally. I had the first gun Hans Vang ever did with a rail, and ran a Comp M2 until it got a Micro. The Aimpoint Micro is downright cheating with the shotgun, and it is now my go to. Dot, press, big hole..........what is not to like. Works 24/7 (unlike the bead I really needed when it was real in total darkness), works with both eyes open, works with less than optimal cheek welds and asymmetric positions, the micro handles the battering from the gauge well, it is small and can work like a ghost ring if set up right, and it can be both fast in close and precise at distance.

I did a week long shotgun class at Gunsite late 90's or early 2000's. Fellow classmates were Hans Vang, Irv Stone, Wayne Novak, Gary Paul Johnson, Wiley Clapp, and a bunch of other characters. Instructors were Louie A, Randy Cain and Steve Slawson. I ran two identical 11-87 shotguns, except one had a 30mm Aimpoint and the other aperture sights. Without question, the aperture sights were faster than the dot for anything involving buckshot. With slugs it depended on the distance. And, I find a bead, or open sights, faster yet than aperture sights.

Darryl, I may be misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that a RDS is faster than iron sights with shot? If so, wouldn't a bunch of bird hunters have mounted red dots?

Dagga Boy
05-20-2015, 03:32 PM
Define "fast". Fast at what?

Bird hunters are shooting a pattern. Has very little relationship to what I use a shotgun for.

For me, and I have likely deployed a shotgun in the urban anti personnel role more than 99% of the internet gun world, I have an pretty good idea of what works for me.
I need something that allows me to spend most of my time with both eyes open searching, and then evaluating threats. I need to be able to then efficently eliminate a very small minority of those threats with lethal force. I will not get to choose the lighting conditions (which can run from bright to total darkness, and very high levels of light even at night,mand total blackness even in the daytime), so I need something I can see through in all conditions. I need something that is easy to track on movers, yet also instantly capable of delivering a hostage resolution surgical shot. I need something I can run in normal conditions, with a helmet, and with a gas mask. I need something I can hit efficiently with in a t-shirt (or naked with a Spartan helmet:cool:), to soft armor to over hard armor. I need something I can work standing, or laying on the ground on my side working under a car. I need something that is "fast" to track indoors with 00 or hit a chest at distance with slug, or make a hostage shot at various distances with slug or buck. I have learned a lot about "shortcomings" and adjusted over the years. My shotgun shooting was a big influence....started at 5 yards in near pitch darkness and finished at 47 yards with not much better lighting. I NEVER want to have to depend on a bead alone in those conditions again, which is what I had, because "fast" didn't matter one bit, and I was dealing with two armed carjackers who just rammed my police car by myself. A situation one would speculate is a good bead scenario.

GJM
05-20-2015, 03:53 PM
You may have misunderstood me -- this was the question I posed:

Darryl, I may be misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that a RDS is faster than iron sights with shot?

To answer your question, I define fast as meaning, which sighting system, a red dot or appropriate bead style front sight, is quicker to make a shot deploying buckshot.

Further, I am not sure what you mean by this:

Bird hunters are shooting a pattern. Has very little relationship to what I use a shotgun for.

I would respectfully submit, if you are shooting buck, you have a pattern too. And, to quote Louie Awerbuck, it is pattern that makes the shotgun. If you don't want pattern, isn't a rifle generally a lot better long gun?

GJM
05-20-2015, 04:46 PM
Darryl, as always these threads get me thinking. I have otherwise identical 20 gauge M2 shotguns -- one with an HD pistol sight inlet into the rib, and the other with a T1. I am going to do some side by side comparisons in the next few weeks.

I spoke to Bill Rogers just now. He said they tested the red dot on the school shotgun course, and found no advantage, but hypothesized the red dot would be an advantage in certain light conditions and firing from the non dominant shoulder. That tracks with what you said. So I will test that.

Incidentally, on this call Bill also confirmed that the 115/125 my wife shot on the last day, following a 114 on the day before, on our last visit, is the highest shot by any woman ever at Rogers. Only one other woman has ever shot Advanced there.

1slow
05-20-2015, 05:00 PM
She is to be congratulated !!!

SLG
05-20-2015, 08:14 PM
Would replacing the bead on an 870 with the XS front sight be sufficient by itself for an in home gun?

Probably work fine for HD distances, but a front sight really needs a rear sight. The elevation is too hard to gauge otherwise. A bead allows for pretty precise elevation and windage when done properly. It doesn't allow for all sorts of other things, as Nyeti went into some detail about. No question, if your eyes will allow it, an RDS is the way to go. After that, a proper ghostring, but only if you know how to use it.

As with other self defense issues, pure blinding raw speed is really not the issue.

SLG
05-20-2015, 08:15 PM
Darryl, as always these threads get me thinking. I have otherwise identical 20 gauge M2 shotguns -- one with an HD pistol sight inlet into the rib, and the other with a T1. I am going to do some side by side comparisons in the next few weeks.

I spoke to Bill Rogers just now. He said they tested the red dot on the school shotgun course, and found no advantage, but hypothesized the red dot would be an advantage in certain light conditions and firing from the non dominant shoulder. That tracks with what you said. So I will test that.

Incidentally, on this call Bill also confirmed that the 115/125 my wife shot on the last day, following a 114 on the day before, on our last visit, is the highest shot by any woman ever at Rogers. Only one other woman has ever shot Advanced there.

That is excellent! Too bad so few women have shot there though.

Dagga Boy
05-20-2015, 08:56 PM
Honestly, I do not want a pattern, I want gigantic fricking rat holes. Buck shot spread in patterns I am looking at is like a tennis to a softball size at max. If I can guarantee that we will be indoors, bead is fine. My first Vang stuff was having Hans do two vent rib barrels with beads for me. One is a 19 and one is 14. I had twin 870's done. One was "my gun" with the 19, and I used the 14 on the agency receiver. I equipped a gun at work with the 14" a side saddle and a Surefire light that I purchased everything my self and just used the departments NFA receiver. It was stashed and I was the only one who took it out at night. Everyone on shifts and teams I worked knew that if anything was remotely a hot situation, I was bringing "my" gauge. I did tons of indoor building searches with it. With the vang barrels I could actually keep a full load of 00 in a head at 25 yards. The 14" gun was a solid 15 yard and in proposition of sending a fist size or smaller load of 00 into things. On high risk vehicle stops and barricaded suspect stuff, always switched out to slug. Again....great big hole, and your car is not cover. I also was able to shoot a street light out at 25 yards with a couple Brennekes with no issue.

This was pre rifle days. Once we got subguns (first) I still mostly used the 12 gauge. Once we got rifles, most of mine were set up for perimeter and DMR stuff as I was still running the 870 indoors (by then we had issued vang guns with ghost rings), and the rifle for outdoors. So essentially, I use the gauge as something to hit things with and either blow things off like in Scott Reitz's shooting or get massive hydraulic leaks with each press. Now,nothing is a given as it would seem to be impossible for a guy to run with six rounds of double 00 buck through their kneecap, but my guy went full gazelle of the first shot and it took a single pellet in the back of a quad at 47 yards to actually put the guy down. The second suspect in that case I located at over 50 yards with a maglite against the Forend. He dropped his gun and surrendered before I sent my last round of buck his way......which is not a pattern you want from an armory issued 870.

I think Dr. Roberts can better explain "rat holes" and why they are good, but that is what I want out of an anti personnel shotgun.

GJM
05-20-2015, 09:25 PM
As with other self defense issues, pure blinding raw speed is really not the issue.

Not sure you would get anyone who has been attacked by a grizzly bear or other dangerous animal to agree with you on this point!


That is excellent! Too bad so few women have shot there though.

While there have been multiple women in each of my classes there, unfortunately it seems percentage wise similar to the female turn out at USPSA matches. This last class, 40% of the participants were women, which is the most I have experienced there. While I am super proud of her accomplishment, she doesn't think it is very special. She is focused on a 120 run as her next goal.

Incidentally, Bill Rogers shot his third perfect 125 in the past month. That makes 2 out of his 3 perfect tests in just the last few years.

SLG
05-20-2015, 09:47 PM
GJM,

I didn't mean to diminish Charlie's score, that's a good score regardless of gender.

Dagga Boy
05-20-2015, 10:00 PM
Not my area of expertise as I am usually the guy in the condo with a great view, but I would not want to run 00 on a bear. This is something better handled with Slug. I am just fine with running the RDS over everything to put slugs where I want them with what is available. Unless folks are doing it different, the way I run my primary 870 is the gun come from ready to eye level when a decision to shoot has been made. I am looking at the target and as soon as the red dot transposes my vision on what I want to hit and press the trigger and a .70 caliber 1 ounce hunk of goodness is inbound to where the dot is......what is going to be faster with the surgical precision I would want on a Grizzly....or a Thug.

GJM
05-20-2015, 10:02 PM
GJM,

I didn't mean to diminish Charlie's score, that's a good score regardless of gender.

She most enjoys beating the boys, especially her husband.

GJM
05-20-2015, 10:31 PM
Not my area of expertise as I am usually the guy in the condo with a great view, but I would not want to run 00 on a bear. This is something better handled with Slug. I am just fine with running the RDS over everything to put slugs where I want them with what is available. Unless folks are doing it different, the way I run my primary 870 is the gun come from ready to eye level when a decision to shoot has been made. I am looking at the target and as soon as the red dot transposes my vision on what I want to hit and press the trigger and a .70 caliber 1 ounce hunk of goodness is inbound to where the dot is......what is going to be faster with the surgical precision I would want on a Grizzly....or a Thug.

Brenneke slugs are all I load into the shotgun, with one rubber bullet projectile and one birdshot on the side saddle for special circumstances (harvesting a game bird or shooting a bear in the ass). I carry extra slugs in my pocket or on the belt, but absent some unusual circumstance, my reload is my pistol. I am indifferent between a 12 and 20, because I believe either gauge Brenneke will penetrate a bear's skull, and for those that look at it, sectional density is greater with the 20 gauge Brenneke slug.

A bear can't hurt you, without being close enough to touch you. The state of Alaska doesn't look favorably on people shooting bears defensively, just for existing near you. Shooting generally commences at distances inside 15 yards, once the bear has made its intentions known, with the marksmanship problem getting progressively easier with each shot. In my experimenting, I am faster putting slugs on target with a semi auto than a pump gun, and faster putting slugs at 3-15 yards into a bear skull sized target with a bead or open sights than aperture sights or an optic. Pure speed on target is extremely important on an animal that can weigh 1,000 pounds, run faster than a race horse, all the while bashing through dense underbrush, and first appearing within 10 yards of you coming at a dead run. Oh, and that bear might be accompanied by two 350 pound "children," following mom.

Additionally, the shotgun without an optic is lighter, trimmer, less subject to a battery/mechanical failure /operator rheostat error, or contamination by debris. Frequently, the shotgun is carried in remote areas, in inclement weather, in rough conditions (think bottom of the boat, back of the float plane, through thick brush, wading rivers and bogs, at times with 100 pound loads of fresh moose meat, and in downpours and snow that might last days, in temperatures down to -40.)

Dagga Boy
05-20-2015, 10:52 PM
Again, it sounds like we have found solutions to our problems based on experience. If I could guarantee that every shot was within 10 yards and I would be standing and in daylight with no real gear......your front sight only Benelli's would be a solid choice.

My world has given me a need for a gun that can do a lot of varied things under varied conditions. It is likely why we both probably have far more guns than we need in safes to try to match the gun perfectly to he need.

DocGKR
05-20-2015, 11:22 PM
Nyeti, great posts! Fully concur with everything you wrote above.

GJM
05-20-2015, 11:33 PM
Nyeti, great posts! Fully concur with everything you wrote above.

You need to just use the like button.

DocGKR
05-21-2015, 12:28 AM
Why?

I agree with what Nyeti wrote.

An RDS on a shotgun is the best option I've found for LE use. It is very quick, yet precise, while working well in a variety of lighting conditions--much like using an RDS on a carbine.

GJM
05-21-2015, 07:41 AM
Why?

I agree with what Nyeti wrote.

An RDS on a shotgun is the best option I've found for LE use. It is very quick, yet precise, while working well in a variety of lighting conditions--much like using an RDS on a carbine.

Gary, it was a joke -- remember your comment about the like button in another thread. I wil go find it, if you don't remember.

GJM
05-21-2015, 08:21 AM
Darryl, I absolutely agree this is a process of figuring out what works for each individual. I started out shooting an 11-87 in 3 Gun. Took an M1 Benelli to Zambia, and ended up following up a wounded lion with it there. Moved to Alaska, and the shotgun became my daily friend -- and for the last 13 years I have carried one daily in the summer months. For fun, I took a look at my photobucket account, and being pictures I posted as part of some discussion, it reflects my evolution of thinking in shotguns. The last picture wasn't mine, but was "edited" and sent to me by another forum member.

One of the first pictures in my account, was when the T1 first came out, and I put one on a 45-70

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/DSC00599Small.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/DSC00599Small.jpg.html)

My first Vang 14 inch shotgun:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Vang14.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Vang14.jpg.html)

Our front "yard" at our cabin:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/twobears.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/twobears.jpg.html)

What we were protecting there:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/P1000810-1.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/P1000810-1.jpg.html)

GJM
05-21-2015, 08:43 AM
my experimentation with the Mesa stock and T1 on the Vang:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Image.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Image.jpg.html)

"Visitors" about to beat feet to a warning shot:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/3bears.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/3bears.jpg.html)


EDC is remote Alaska:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/HP.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/HP.jpg.html)

First open sight "14:"

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/shotty.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/shotty.jpg.html)

When the M4 project didn't pan out, and I first got the TX-4:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/BS1_zpsc3cef9ac.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/BS1_zpsc3cef9ac.jpg.html)

Why this stuff matters (from Kodiak):

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/bear1_zps586ae081.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/bear1_zps586ae081.jpg.html)

More Beretta love:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/storm3.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/storm3.jpg.html)

GJM
05-21-2015, 08:52 AM
TX4:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/storm1.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/storm1.jpg.html)

Prototype Brockman sight/rail:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Brockrail.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Brockrail.jpg.html)

OPen sights, as fall and darkness approaches. I hate those ports!

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/shot3.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/shot3.jpg.html)


45-70 works too:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/bear_zpsa4e99e74.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/bear_zpsa4e99e74.jpg.html)

Five yards from our door:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/moose1_zps7affeeb3.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/moose1_zps7affeeb3.jpg.html)

20 gauge M2 experiment:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg5_zpsed9b9b14.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg5_zpsed9b9b14.jpg.html)

working stuff out at the cabin:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zpseb4040b1.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zpseb4040b1.jpg.html)

GJM
05-21-2015, 08:58 AM
25 yard group, with one called flyer, shot with just a FO front sight from short M2 12 gauge:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FO%20sight_zpsfcr7xngw.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FO%20sight_zpsfcr7xngw.jpeg.html)

Typical moose hunting conditions -- 100 pounds of meat, covered in blood, bit to crap by bugs, and in or around the water:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/moose145_zps3f299afd.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/moose145_zps3f299afd.jpg.html)

A picture another forum member sent me:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/8544c240-7eb0-41ee-b412-abb21da31236_zps3747d3d3.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/8544c240-7eb0-41ee-b412-abb21da31236_zps3747d3d3.jpg.html)

To conclude, definitely a process of figuring out what works for your own needs. This summer we have a M2 14 inch entry with ghost ring sights and a 14 M2 with only a fiber optic front sight into the mix to test.

Dagga Boy
05-21-2015, 12:08 PM
I always laugh how close we actually are on how we do things and set stuff up and end up arguing about minutia......because it would be so out of character to just hit the like button. The guns I had built for my department to put in every car look exactly like your 14" Vang gun with the ghost ring and rail other than the finish. Of course yours has been used hard in Alaska and likely still works and runs great, and the cops at my old place essentially destroyed theirs in a few years.

The minutia is also likely just from the polar opposite worlds of concrete and urban scum vs. the wilderness and rogue bears. Otherwise the basics are essentially the same.

Your M2 with the Micro is essentially what I was trying to build at some point, but it wasn't tapped for the Mesa Rail with shell holder that I wanted to run. I'll see what happens with the M4 project. Also, the T4 was Really what was looking perfect to me.......until Beretta made it "better" and critical problems now exist which is working off the Glock model.

Glock17JHP
05-21-2015, 01:19 PM
XS front and rear or fiber optic "bead" in my experience. I prefer XS because the Flite-Control buckshot extends the range of buckshot beyond what I'm comfortable using a bead sight for.

Agree with your feelings on Flight Control buckshot and a bead sight. Shooting the FC showed me that...

Glock17JHP
05-21-2015, 01:36 PM
I am a civilian... I have an 8-shot Winchester Defender loaded with Winchester Ranger RA1200 (9 pellet 00 Buck) for HD use. It has a Hogue 12" LOP stock and a TruGlo green fiber optic front sight. I like this set-up for what I use it for, and for the distances I will likely encounter. I don't expect to have to make a HD shot past 30 feet, and get a 5 inch pattern at that distance.

Would post pictures of my shotgun, but it looks like I need to use a URL to do it rather than simply upload them...

Shellback
05-21-2015, 02:33 PM
Probably work fine for HD distances, but a front sight really needs a rear sight. The elevation is too hard to gauge otherwise. A bead allows for pretty precise elevation and windage when done properly. It doesn't allow for all sorts of other things, as Nyeti went into some detail about. No question, if your eyes will allow it, an RDS is the way to go.

I just happen to have a spare Aimpoint... Any recommendations for mounting on an 870? I have the 18" version.

shootist26
05-21-2015, 02:43 PM
I just happen to have a spare Aimpoint... Any recommendations for mounting on an 870? I have the 18" version.

You'll have to drill and tap the receiver if it isn't already.

Choose your pic rail carefully. Some have a channel cut down the middle of it. Others don't. Depending on your aimpoint mount, that may or may not work for you. For example, a Larue QD low mount for the T1 will not work well with rails that have a full depth channel cut. The Larue has a small nub that fits into the rail slot, and a channel cut means the rail will not provide enough engagement surface area.

Dropkick
05-21-2015, 03:02 PM
Well, this thread has sealed the deal for me. I'm putting a spare red dot on my shotgun ASAP.
My only concerned is to make sure it doesn't interfere with over the top reloads from a side saddle.

Shellback
05-21-2015, 03:14 PM
You'll have to drill and tap the receiver if it isn't already.

Choose your pic rail carefully. Some have a channel cut down the middle of it. Others don't. Depending on your aimpoint mount, that may or may not work for you. For example, a Larue QD low mount for the T1 will not work well with rails that have a full depth channel cut. The Larue has a small nub that fits into the rail slot, and a channel cut means the rail will not provide enough engagement surface area.
Thanks! I've got the Larue and that gives me something to think about.

jlw
05-21-2015, 03:24 PM
I pulled out my work 870 yesterday. It has the CS ghost rings. One of the screws had backed out, and the aperture was spinning freely. Now time to sight in again and Locktite.

shootist26
05-21-2015, 03:37 PM
Well, this thread has sealed the deal for me. I'm putting a spare red dot on my shotgun ASAP.
My only concerned is to make sure it doesn't interfere with over the top reloads from a side saddle.

I like reloading over the top, so I mounted my T1 as far to the rear as possible. Only way to know if it works for your head position is to try it out. An adjustable stock like the Magpul might help. In my case, the standard stock worked well for me and I was still able to get a good cheekweld.

I was using a T1 with a Larue QD ultra low mount

Dagga Boy
05-21-2015, 03:48 PM
If I had my way.........the micro would go on the barrel with a low co-witness of the X/S barrel mounted sights. If only I was king. It would leave the receiver clean for loading and the barrel itself would be regulated to the sights, both electronic and hard mounted.

SpyderMan2k4
05-21-2015, 07:58 PM
If I had my way.........the micro would go on the barrel with a low co-witness of the X/S barrel mounted sights. If only I was king. It would leave the receiver clean for loading and the barrel itself would be regulated to the sights, both electronic and hard mounted.
I feel like I have a new mission.

Smash
05-22-2015, 10:18 AM
I feel like I have a new mission.

Let me know if you want to collaborate. ;)

SpyderMan2k4
05-22-2015, 10:24 AM
Let me know if you want to collaborate. ;)
Toward the end of summer I'm hoping to file the paperwork to SBS my 590. Since I'll be chopping the barrel and needing to silver solder a new front sight on anyway, it wouldn't take much more effort to throw a rail on the barrel too

Smash
05-22-2015, 10:31 AM
Toward the end of summer I'm hoping to file the paperwork to SBS my 590. Since I'll be chopping the barrel and needing to silver solder a new front sight on anyway, it wouldn't take much more effort to throw a rail on the barrel too

You'll need the dovetail for the XS rear sight. Whether it's incorporated with your rail or as a separate entity.

LHS
05-22-2015, 12:32 PM
This intrigues me.

Haraise
05-22-2015, 12:38 PM
I was about to say, adapting something like the XS lever scout mount for the 870 wouldn't seem to be that hard:

3429

NerdAlert
05-26-2015, 01:14 PM
I visited some family in NY and it got me thinking about getting a nice gauge set up. Thinking 14" mossberg 590 (I'm a lefty) with the magpul furniture and sling. Possible XS sites, possibly just a bead, MAYBE a rail with an optic. This thread is not helping :)


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

"Gustatus similis pullus"

Dropkick
05-26-2015, 07:22 PM
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8869/18114390096_88d0e7a02c_o.jpg

How'd I do?

DocGKR
05-26-2015, 09:41 PM
Aimpoint is a bit too far back on the receiver--good way to give yourself a black eye...

Dropkick
05-26-2015, 10:04 PM
Aimpoint is a bit too far back on the receiver--good way to give yourself a black eye...

That'd be decidedly bad. Thanks for "looking" out.

SeriousStudent
05-27-2015, 07:18 PM
Let me know if you want to collaborate. ;)

I would be interested in doing that. I have a spare vent rib Wingmaster sitting in the safe as well.

P.E. Kelley
05-28-2015, 04:11 PM
My personal favorite.

http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s6/v147/p1204332311-4.jpg
http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s6/v148/p1204331153-4.jpg

TR675
05-28-2015, 04:42 PM
That is a very slick setup, Patrick.

Have you ever had any issues with the rear sight getting bumped and moved in the dovetail?

P.E. Kelley
05-28-2015, 05:22 PM
That is a very slick setup, Patrick.

Have you ever had any issues with the rear sight getting bumped and moved in the dovetail?

I haven't to date, but that rib is especially narrow so I understand the concern. Once I establish zero green locktight is applied.

GJM
05-29-2015, 12:25 AM
My personal favorite.

http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s6/v147/p1204332311-4.jpg
http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s6/v148/p1204331153-4.jpg

Looks similar in concept to one I like and have on a Benelli M2:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg5_zpsed9b9b14.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg5_zpsed9b9b14.jpg.html)

LSP972
05-29-2015, 07:32 AM
My personal favorite.

http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s6/v147/p1204332311-4.jpg
http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s6/v148/p1204331153-4.jpg

Holy shit; you, sir, are a genius. I have a Beretta 390 that I chopped up at both ends for a house "dudeshooter". I didn't bother to put any sights on it, as it points just fine for room distance work... and most of the available sight options are expensive/PITA to install/both. But a friend is exploring this topic (shotgun sights) for a close-in pig gun, and I was telling myself I need to get off my butt and put SOME sort of sights on the DudeShooter; which is a 390 bird gun with synthetic furniture that I got NIB for a song. The barrel is cut to 18"+ an RCH, bisecting one of the rib posts just like your photo. And I know a guy with a Bridgeport and dovetail cutters...

.

Smash
05-29-2015, 08:49 AM
Here's the link to find those sights. http://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8271

Comes with 3 different heights in the kit.

We also have the kit for $40.00 that doesn't have a front sight, if you want to use your own fiber optic etc. You'll have to call to order that set because it isn't on our website yet. SG-3001-9

Glock17JHP
05-30-2015, 12:00 AM
Here are 3 images of my HD shotgun...

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-821F_zps62vret6m.jpg (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/Glock17JHP/media/MVC-821F_zps62vret6m.jpg.html)

TruGlo front sight

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-819F_zpssokpgrn3.jpg (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/Glock17JHP/media/MVC-819F_zpssokpgrn3.jpg.html)

Hogue 12" LOP stock

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-818F_zpstiyjkvvz.jpg (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/Glock17JHP/media/MVC-818F_zpstiyjkvvz.jpg.html)

Winchester 8-shot 'synthetic' Defender 12 gauge

Lomshek
05-30-2015, 12:31 AM
Here's the link to find those sights. http://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8271

Comes with 3 different heights in the kit.

We also have the kit for $40.00 that doesn't have a front sight, if you want to use your own fiber optic etc. You'll have to call to order that set because it isn't on our website yet. SG-3001-9

How would one go about getting a big dot front and tritium stripe rear like is offered on some of the handgun sights and how does one deal with getting the right elevation? Should I get a big dot front and non-tritium rear to test for rear sight height then get a tritium rear in the height of my choice or what? I'm liking the idea of the tritium rear to help with indexing in low light.

GJM
05-31-2015, 09:54 PM
I set up an experiment this afternoon using two otherwise identical Benelli M2 twenty gauge shotguns, except one with the open sight arrangement pictured above and the other with a T1 Aimpoint. The "test" was to start from a low ready, and to hit three eight inch steel at 15 yards, spaced approximately five yards apart, using buckshot and high brass birdshot. I repeated the test about a half dozen times with each different shotgun.

The times were very close, with the iron sights perhaps a smidge faster. A smidge meaning maybe .10 over an average 1.5 second run. However, I didn't miss a steel with the red dot and I had some misses with the open sights. Then, I went back to 35 yards and shot head shots on an IPSC target, and as you might expect, the T1 was an advantage.

I am going to try to repeat this test, and make my wife a guinea pig to do the test, too.

Smash
06-01-2015, 12:17 PM
How would one go about getting a big dot front and tritium stripe rear like is offered on some of the handgun sights and how does one deal with getting the right elevation? Should I get a big dot front and non-tritium rear to test for rear sight height then get a tritium rear in the height of my choice or what? I'm liking the idea of the tritium rear to help with indexing in low light.

The rear sights on the vent rib dovetail will be too small to allow for a tritium vial. Basically, any rear sight that is going to be tall enough to allow tritium is going to require a ramped front sight.


Like this:
The rear base is soldered on and the rear sight fits into a dovetail on the rear base. If you bought the barrel from Remington you could pull the rear sight off and measure it and we could set you up with the tritium equilvalent. or if you need to go up or down based on your grouping we could do that as well.

http://www.shopremingtoncountry.com/870-Barrel-Improved-Cylinder-F249630AS/dp/B00MNRKCOC?field_availability=-1&field_browse=4601811011&id=870+Barrel+Improved+Cylinder+F249630AS&ie=UTF8&refinementHistory=subjectbin%2Cprice%2Csize_name%2 Cgeneric_text_4-bin%2Cgeneric_text_3-bin%2Cgeneric_text_10-bin%2Ccolor_map%2Cgeneric_text_2-bin%2Cgeneric_number_1%2Cgeneric_number_2&searchNodeID=4601811011&searchPage=1&searchRank=salesrank&searchSize=12

http://frankbaumer.com/Heartland%20Pictures/More_Pics/Remington_870_Police_SBS_lp_rifle_sights_2.jpg

EM_
06-01-2015, 04:11 PM
Here's the link to find those sights. http://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8271

Comes with 3 different heights in the kit.

We also have the kit for $40.00 that doesn't have a front sight, if you want to use your own fiber optic etc. You'll have to call to order that set because it isn't on our website yet. SG-3001-9

Since you're here...I've got a bead-only barrel on one I'm building, no vent rib. How would I go about doing something similar? This reminds me of the DEA setup that existed for a while, which I truly loved.

Smash
06-01-2015, 04:42 PM
Since you're here...I've got a bead-only barrel on one I'm building, no vent rib. How would I go about doing something similar? This reminds me of the DEA setup that existed for a while, which I truly loved.

You'd be better off buying the barrel. For your situation youd have to buy a ramp and rear base and solder them on then by a front and rear sight. Theres no material on a plain barrel to dovetail something in and keep it low enough for a bead over front sight.


If you wanted a Big dot tritium sight on the front we have the epoxy on front sights for $60(Less expensive through Brownells, Midway etc)

Lomshek
06-02-2015, 12:11 AM
The rear sights on the vent rib dovetail will be too small to allow for a tritium vial. Basically, any rear sight that is going to be tall enough to allow tritium is going to require a ramped front sight.


Like this:
The rear base is soldered on and the rear sight fits into a dovetail on the rear base. If you bought the barrel from Remington you could pull the rear sight off and measure it and we could set you up with the tritium equilvalent. or if you need to go up or down based on your grouping we could do that as well.

http://www.shopremingtoncountry.com/870-Barrel-Improved-Cylinder-F249630AS/dp/B00MNRKCOC?field_availability=-1&field_browse=4601811011&id=870+Barrel+Improved+Cylinder+F249630AS&ie=UTF8&refinementHistory=subjectbin%2Cprice%2Csize_name%2 Cgeneric_text_4-bin%2Cgeneric_text_3-bin%2Cgeneric_text_10-bin%2Ccolor_map%2Cgeneric_text_2-bin%2Cgeneric_number_1%2Cgeneric_number_2&searchNodeID=4601811011&searchPage=1&searchRank=salesrank&searchSize=12

http://frankbaumer.com/Heartland%20Pictures/More_Pics/Remington_870_Police_SBS_lp_rifle_sights_2.jpg

I have a CZ 712 Utility and Remington 1100 both with vent ribs. In both cases raising the sights up 1/4" or more would help as I have to jam my face hard against the stock to get a proper bead "sight picture". I like the idea of a tritium rear (especially a less bright yellow) to help with low light alignment since the rear sight would be a distance away from my eye like a handgun sight rather than up close like most rifle sights.

Any chance of you guys making something that's easier to add than the usual brazing a base on? In searching the web I found these bolt-ons that look like they'd stay on the rib with judicious use of loctite. Add protective ears to the big dot up front and a rear that's adjustable like the picture and you'd have a winner. I'd much rather pay $150 for a workable solution than spend 10 hours making it or finding a smith who knows what they're doing.

http://www.powerfactorshooting.com/v/vspfiles/photos/truglo-benelli-sightset-2.jpg

SLG
06-14-2015, 07:07 PM
I set up an experiment this afternoon using two otherwise identical Benelli M2 twenty gauge shotguns, except one with the open sight arrangement pictured above and the other with a T1 Aimpoint. The "test" was to start from a low ready, and to hit three eight inch steel at 15 yards, spaced approximately five yards apart, using buckshot and high brass birdshot. I repeated the test about a half dozen times with each different shotgun.

The times were very close, with the iron sights perhaps a smidge faster. A smidge meaning maybe .10 over an average 1.5 second run. However, I didn't miss a steel with the red dot and I had some misses with the open sights. Then, I went back to 35 yards and shot head shots on an IPSC target, and as you might expect, the T1 was an advantage.


Which makes my point that raw speed is almost never the issue. Hitting, however, is always the issue. :-)

Where are you getting a 20g 3 gun? Only the field M2 seems to come in 20.

GJM
06-14-2015, 09:22 PM
Which makes my point that raw speed is almost never the issue. Hitting, however, is always the issue. :-)

Where are you getting a 20g 3 gun? Only the field M2 seems to come in 20.

The 3 Gun is a 12, now paper worked to 14 inches.

The pair of 20's are regular M2 Field models, with the barrels shortened to 18.5 -- one has a T1 and the other open sights.

SLG
06-14-2015, 09:32 PM
Gotcha, that makes me feel better. I think I'll grab a 20 to try out.

GJM
06-14-2015, 09:48 PM
You can get a 24 inch barrel with the Compact (shorter LOP) Comfortech. It cuts to 18.5 ish fine, but the 21 inch barrels cut better to 14 (spacing of the vent rib).

My perfect combo would be a 21 inch barrel with the Compact Comfortech stock.

GJM
06-17-2015, 07:34 PM
I got a set of those XS sights and had them put on a 18.5 inch barrel. Look good so far.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsabqxudvy.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsabqxudvy.jpg.html)

Here is the whole rig, my bear shotgun in non NFA format.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsgbduikk9.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsgbduikk9.jpg.html)

GJM
06-17-2015, 08:33 PM
Jim Brockman shot the barrel before sending to me, getting the right height rear sight (the middle one, I believe), and made a slight rear deflection as I need for my eyes with open sights.

I had one extra box of five Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs to test with. Fired two at 15, hitting a two inch dot, and went to 25 and shot my remaining three slugs offhand. This is my three shot group.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsvakej0ai.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsvakej0ai.jpg.html)

SLG
06-17-2015, 09:25 PM
Looks good. I've been playing with my shotguns as well lately and have to ask: is there a finer shotgun stock than the Magpul SGA? Obviously that only applies if you have a gun they make it for (870 and 590 afaik), but if they do, I highly recommend picking a set up. They seem to mitigate recoil better than anything else Ive used, they're totally adjustable, easy to mount a light to the forearm, easier to manipulate with the slightly longer forend (I'm short), and they come with all the tools needed to install everything. Even the castle nut wrench.

Is there a finer scattergun stock out there?

GJM
06-17-2015, 09:53 PM
I have a number of them, and really like the Magpul butt stock for a number of reasons you describe. I also like that the grip is deep enough that it gives many of the advantages of a pistol grip stock without the pistol grip protruding down as in a conventional pistol grip stock. That said, I am very fond of the Benelli Comfortech stock, and think the M2 shoots slugs softer than the 870, despite weighing a pound less. I wish Benelli offered a Comfortech for the M4 Benelli, and that Magpul offered a stock for the M2, especially since the Magpul costs just a third of the cost of the Comfortech.

Tom Givens
06-17-2015, 09:57 PM
When the MagPul stock first came out, I thought it looked funny. Then I tried one. Both of my serious social shotguns now sport one. I agree with GJM's comments on the pistol grip shape, and I really like the spacers that allow a good bit of LOP adjustment.

GJM
06-17-2015, 10:19 PM
This is my 870. It was worked over by Jim Brockman -- action slicked, trigger job, his sights and rail, H1 in a low OEM mount, Magpul stock, short LOP, intermediate cheek riser for the Aimpoint height, simple carry sling, Vang side mount that detaches by velcro, Vang +1 extension, G, G and G fore end (the Magpul lip hurts my support hand with slugs) and NP3. Started with a ported Vang barrel, but I replaced it with a non ported barrel as the porting hurt when shooting without ear pro. With the NP3, I can leave it in the bottom of the boat in the rain, and it requires no maintenance except wiping down the front sight and rail. The action is so slick, it practically runs by gravity alone.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpshivelsvt.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpshivelsvt.jpg.html)

Up1911Fan
06-18-2015, 12:19 AM
What's the consensus on porting on a defensive shotgun?

HopetonBrown
06-18-2015, 03:59 AM
Louis Awerbuck said he liked the Vang (backbore) but not the Comp (ports).

SpyderMan2k4
06-18-2015, 11:30 AM
When the MagPul stock first came out, I thought it looked funny. Then I tried one. Both of my serious social shotguns now sport one. I agree with GJM's comments on the pistol grip shape, and I really like the spacers that allow a good bit of LOP adjustment.
Agreed. I actually wrote it off for a while because I thought it was ugly. After actually handling and trying one I bought one immediately.

LHS
06-19-2015, 12:24 PM
Agreed. I actually wrote it off for a while because I thought it was ugly. After actually handling and trying one I bought one immediately.

Same here. I thought it was ugly as sin, and wrote it off. After trying one, I am convinced they're the Answer for 870/500 stocks. I still don't have any, as my conventional youth stocks work just fine for me, but the next shotgun I buy will get one.

SpyderMan2k4
06-19-2015, 12:27 PM
Same here. I thought it was ugly as sin, and wrote it off. After trying one, I am not convinced they're the Answer for 870/500 stocks. I still don't have any, as my conventional youth stocks work just fine for me, but the next shotgun I buy will get one.
I'm a big fan of pistol grip ergonomics, so that alone is huge for me especially with Mossbergs. Combine that with adjustable LOP and built in sling attachment, it's definitely well thought out.

LHS
06-19-2015, 05:31 PM
I'm a big fan of pistol grip ergonomics, so that alone is huge for me especially with Mossbergs. Combine that with adjustable LOP and built in sling attachment, it's definitely well thought out.

Apparently it's too late for me to edit my previous post, but I for some reason added an extra word. Instead of "I am not convinced they're the Answer", I meant to say "I am convinced they're the Answer".

SpyderMan2k4
06-19-2015, 05:32 PM
That makes more sense

LHS
06-20-2015, 01:21 PM
Gracias

jlw
06-21-2015, 10:11 AM
These old school MMCs will soon be going on an old 870P.

https://scontent-atl1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/11141318_838970549484167_5743897339616508144_o.jpg

GJM
06-21-2015, 10:46 PM
I got a set of those XS sights and had them put on a 18.5 inch barrel. Look good so far.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsabqxudvy.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsabqxudvy.jpg.html)

Here is the whole rig, my bear shotgun in non NFA format.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsgbduikk9.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsgbduikk9.jpg.html)

These sights are really growing on me! I think they are a great balance between speed but with enough precision to place a slug at reasonable distances. I really don't enjoy shooting 12 gauge Brenneke slugs (the 20 gauge slugs are much nicer to shoot), especially since tearing my retina two years ago, but I shot the 3x5 at 25 today, then 8 inch steel at 60 yards, and the sights were just fine for that level of precision.

Our bird dog ran off a brown bear near my wife yesterday morning, as I was down the way with my Benelli. The M2, in some flavor, is pretty much a constant companion around here. Here it is, in my hands, exercising the dog earlier today.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/DSC01712_zpss2oadhhm.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/DSC01712_zpss2oadhhm.jpg.html)

GJM
06-23-2015, 12:53 AM
This Benelli mount looks very interesting:


https://scalarworks.com/shop/optic-mounts/bor-rmr/


Sent from my iPad

Smash
06-23-2015, 08:53 AM
This Benelli mount looks very interesting:


https://scalarworks.com/shop/optic-mounts/bor-rmr/


Sent from my iPad

I've never been a huge shotgun guy but have to ask the question. If you have that mount and put an RMR on it, what are you attaching to the extra rail space?

I guess you could attach one of our backup ghost rings backwards to the front of it...

http://www.xssights.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=993847&CAT=8534

GJM
06-23-2015, 09:03 AM
I've never been a huge shotgun guy but have to ask the question. If you have that mount and put an RMR on it, what are you attaching to the extra rail space?

I guess you could attach one of our backup ghost rings backwards to the front of it...

http://www.xssights.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=993847&CAT=8534

Two possibilities interest me.

1) that the mount would get a RMR low enough, that sights on the rib like I recently installed, would be usable through the RMR window. Not so sure about a RMR in my neck of the world, but low is good.

2) that the rail is lower enough than others, that I could put a T1 in an OEM mount on the rail, and disregard the RMR mounting provisions.

Just thinking out loud.

41magfan
06-23-2015, 09:10 AM
"The Scalarworks Benelli Optic Rail for Trijicon RMR sights (BOR/RMR) is the only co-witnessing red dot sight mount for Benelli Tactical shotguns."

The co-witness aspect is what got my attention. I assume that's with the factory irons.

Smash
06-23-2015, 09:32 AM
Yeah, I was just trying to figure out why they went with a rail section to finish out the mount. I guess because that's what people expect to have.

ETA: https://scalarworks.com/optic-mounts/bor-rmr/

Now I see they have a light and sling mount on the rail.

GJM
06-23-2015, 09:37 AM
Yeah, I was just trying to figure out why they went with a rail section to finish out the mount. I guess because that's what people expect to have.

ETA: https://scalarworks.com/optic-mounts/bor-rmr/

Now I see they have a light and sling mount on the rail.

I think the primary reason may be the OEM screws are up there, and they rely on those to attach the mount. You could probably cut the back of the rail that holds the RMR off, and still have a light, low rail.

jlw
06-23-2015, 09:43 AM
This Benelli mount looks very interesting:


https://scalarworks.com/shop/optic-mounts/bor-rmr/


Sent from my iPad


Would that block the sights on an M2 with rifle sights on the barrel rather than ghost rings?

GJM
06-23-2015, 10:08 AM
Would that block the sights on an M2 with rifle sights on the barrel rather than ghost rings?

Not sure. I have the various configurations, and need to get a mount in to do some looking. In terms of a Benelli, I think OEM rifle sights on the plain barrel are lowest, with a vent rib arrangement from Smash's firm in the middle, and a ghost ring highest.

Maple Syrup Actual
06-23-2015, 04:15 PM
I'm currently messing around with a new production Valtro PM5 with a totally mismatched front/rear sight set.

I'm trying to decide if it's even worth worrying about, or if it's just getting a T1 or Shield CQS on the rail, and left alone.

The valtro is obscure enough that I don't know if anyone has any thoughts on it, but if anyone does I'd be interested to hear them.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

GJM
07-04-2015, 10:42 AM
Would that block the sights on an M2 with rifle sights on the barrel rather than ghost rings?

When I got back to town, the Scalarworks mount was waiting. It is feather light and appears very well made. I tried it (not screwed, just placed it) on a M2 with ghost ring sights. It appears a RMR will cowitness with the aperture sights, but a T1 will be just a bit too high. I then placed it on the receiver of my M2 with the AO sights on the rib. Almost usable, and probably so in a pinch, but the mount is just a bit too high to fully use the AO vent rib sights. JLW, I believe the OEM rifle sights are even lower than the vent rib, so my guess is that the rifle sights will not co-witness, even with a RMR.

The mount ends up being very expensive, because I will now need to get a new RMR.

jlw
07-04-2015, 11:25 AM
When I got back to town, the Scalarworks mount was waiting. It is feather light and appears very well made. I tried it (not screwed, just placed it) on a M2 with ghost ring sights. It appears a RMR will cowitness with the aperture sights, but a T1 will be just a bit too high. I then placed it on the receiver of my M2 with the AO sights on the rib. Almost usable, and probably so in a pinch, but the mount is just a bit too high to fully use the AO vent rib sights. JLW, I believe the OEM rifle sights are even lower than the vent rib, so my guess is that the rifle sights will not co-witness, even with a RMR.

The mount ends up being very expensive, because I will now need to get a new RMR.


Thanks.

SteveB
07-11-2015, 08:59 PM
M2 with Scalarworks mount and RMR:

3593

3594

Madnik
07-12-2015, 04:07 PM
After being afforded the opportunity to shoot otherwise identical Remington 870s except for ghost ring or XS/Remington Low Profile Rifle sights I found, or rather the timer did, the XS sights faster out to 25 yards or so and both being equally fast out to 100 yards. And given that I have a lot more time using ghost ring sights I took note. Now for more factory options to feature them. I also finally was able to put more than a few rounds down range at a time using an H1 as the primary sight. I agree with what other have stated about it's speed compared to irons and at the distances discussed. I will say, though, that as with carbines it was much easier to get hits from unconventional shooting positions. Though I need a bit more practice because a 12 guage coming back in role over is a bit different than a carbine. *chuckle*

Crusader8207
07-29-2015, 10:33 AM
Doc, at what distance do you recommend sighting in the RDS for the shotgun?


Why?

I agree with what Nyeti wrote.

An RDS on a shotgun is the best option I've found for LE use. It is very quick, yet precise, while working well in a variety of lighting conditions--much like using an RDS on a carbine.

breakingtime91
07-29-2015, 10:37 AM
M2 with Scalarworks mount and RMR:

3593

3594

That is nice!