Good shotgun training?

[45dotACP]

So, a little background...

I just graduated two days ago with my Bachelors of Science in Nursing. I'm awaiting an interview for my dream job in a well respected teaching hospital that is a Level 1 Trauma and Magnet Certified in Cook County and I'd be working alongside some personal friends and some of the best damn doctors and nurses in the state...if not the country.

I've got a sure thing "do have" job lined up in a more rural hospital on a Telemetry floor, so I'm not concerned either way and I still think it'd be cool to play with a shotgun, so the question stands whether or not I get the ASHU job now or later...because even if I don't get it now, I'll keep trying until I do...and I'm nothing if not persistent.

Yeah yeah..."enemy territory/socialist utopia"...I've said the exact same a few times myself. I hail from Indiana and the difference in gun laws gives me a sad every time I visit friends who have suppressors :(

But it's my dream to work in their Adult Surgical Heart Unit (ASHU) and if it ends up that I am offered the job, I'll take it in a heartbeat (heh, pun is totally intended) and I'd have to be in a place where my AR cannot sit at my bedside. It's possible I'll move later...but for now I'll be wanting training with a shotgun. I have some training with pistols and I've got a few instructors in mind to further develop my skills with my roscoe thanks to this forum, but I haven't the faintest idea who to see about a good shotgun class.

Any thoughts?

[Chuck Haggard]

Tom Givens

[Tom Givens]

Chuck- Thanks for the plug. I just finished a shotgun class yesterday. Lee Weems was in it. Perhaps he will chime in.

I have one day defensive shotgun courses coming up on

June 14, Sunday, Culpeper, VA

June 29, Monday, West Elkton, Ohio

If anyone is interested, e-mail me for details. rangemaster.tom@gmail.com

[HopetonBrown]

Rob Haught.

I haven't spent time with Mike Lamb, but he's in my neck of the woods and seems passionate about the scattergun.

[LHS]

I'll second the recommendation for Rob Haught (though, full disclosure, I'm his son). That said, I think it's always prudent to look to numerous sources of instruction, as every good instructor will have something that will help you.

[Jackdog]

I recommend tom Givens, also. And I recommend Wayne Dobbs and Nyeti of HiTS. Both put on excellent shotgun classes.

[SLG]

I've shot a fair bit with Rob. Mostly other weapons, but also shotgun. I'd take a class from him in a second.

[Aray]

I've trained with Tom Givens, absolute yes. Many friends who have trained with Rob Haught, another yes.

[Chuck Haggard]

I teach shotguns as well, but I am in no way the caliber (gauge?) of instructor Tom is on the subject, nor Rob Haught.

[jlw]

Chuck- Thanks for the plug. I just finished a shotgun class yesterday. Lee Weems was in it. Perhaps he will chime in.

I have one day defensive shotgun courses coming up on

June 14, Sunday, Culpeper, VA

June 29, Monday, West Elkton, Ohio

If anyone is interested, e-mail me for details. rangemaster.tom@gmail.com


As Tom wrote, I took his shotgun class this past weekend.

The key selling point to me was the context to which Tom taught the subject matter. You will come out of the class with an thorough understanding of how to grab your shotgun and handle the situation if someone kicks in your door demanding to be shot. Myths are debunked. You won't get run down all sorts of rabbit trails and overloaded with with techniques for every little possibility. It's simple: grab the gun. Use the gun.

You will get thoroughly drilled in how to handle the shotgun in the most direct and simplistic manners. This is important because the overwhelming majority of shotgun malfunctions are user error rather than mechanical failures.

[Chuck Haggard]

This is important because the overwhelming majority of shotgun malfunctions are user error rather than mechanical failures.

Teaching numerous rookie classes over the years emphasized this to me, big time. Getting people to run a pump gun in a robust manner is key.

[nycnoob]

Where can I find a list of upcoming Rob Haught classes? Last time I looked I did not find anything recent.

[Little Creek]

Chuck- Thanks for the plug. I just finished a shotgun class yesterday. Lee Weems was in it. Perhaps he will chime in.

I have one day defensive shotgun courses coming up on

June 14, Sunday, Culpeper, VA


June 29, Monday, West Elkton, Ohio

If anyone is interested, e-mail me for details. rangemaster.tom@gmail.com

Tom,

I have an M2 with a short tube and a long bbl. How long a tube do I need to take one of your classes? I also have a Mossberg 930 JM with 24" bbl. I am thinking of taking a two day class pistol/shotgun in the fall.

Thanks.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Another plus for Tom Givens' class. Here's an AAR report by moi - http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453025&highlight=shotgun+givens

[Dave J]

In addition to the names already posted, I recall a couple of our SME's occasionally mentioning Scotty Reitz as being among the best shotgun trainers.
http://www.internationaltactical.com/scott.html
No personal experience with ITTS, but I hope to change that at some point.

[Chuck Haggard]

In addition to the names already posted, I recall a couple of our SME's occasionally mentioning Scotty Reitz as being among the best shotgun trainers.
http://www.internationaltactical.com/scott.html
No personal experience with ITTS, but I hope to change that at some point.

^That^ guy too, he is on my "to train with" list.

[GJM]

I think a 1 or 2 day shotgun class is just the right length. The joke was, with a 5 day class, that they managed to cram 2 days of material into 5 days of class. When you spend 1-2 days checking your patterns, you get the gist ....

[Dagga Boy]

My earlier post didn't work so I will try again. Shotguns are really my "thing" operationally and the long gun I have done the most real world work with. I have been to a lot of schools and training trying to perfect the Art of the Master blaster. About half were good. Here is who I recommend.

Scott Reitz at ITTS. Scotty likely has more actual real world time on the gauge and been in shootings with them. I prefer his handling SOP's over everything else out there.

Rob Haught, just to learn Robs methodology on short sticking the gauge is great. Rob was actually very impressed with me and my guys gun handling skills on the gun itself that came from ITTS/LAPD metro. Using the handling skills from ITTS combined with Rob's stuff is great, and worked well for me operationally and was very well tested in the field.

Tom Givens......its Tom Givens, nuff said.

If you can ever get Bill Jeans as he has sort of retired, it is worth any time you can invest.

Most of the other classes I have been to I was more capable and better versed on the subject (sometimes a WHOLE lot better) than the instructors and they simply became time to shoot someone else's program with no real benefit other than trigger time.

For LE trainers looking to get an instructor ticket punched, the NRA LEAD program as long as Mark Fricke is the instructor is what I would recommend over most of the government agency schools.

[Chuck Haggard]

I second Mark Fricke ref the NRA police instructor training program

[jlw]

Erik Lund should be mentioned here as well.

[jlw]

I think a 1 or 2 day shotgun class is just the right length. The joke was, with a 5 day class, that they managed to cram 2 days of material into 5 days of class. When you spend 1-2 days checking your patterns, you get the gist ....


I did a 40 hour shotgun instructor course at GPSTC years ago. We quickly did patterning. I will admit to one afternoon being spent shooting trap.

[Tom Givens]

Tom,

I have an M2 with a short tube and a long bbl. How long a tube do I need to take one of your classes? I also have a Mossberg 930 JM with 24" bbl. I am thinking of taking a two day class pistol/shotgun in the fall.

Thanks.

As long as your magazine holds at least 4 rounds your gun is good to go in our drills.

[Chuck Whitlock]

For LE trainers looking to get an instructor ticket punched, the NRA LEAD program as long as Mark Fricke is the instructor is what I would recommend over most of the government agency schools.


I second Mark Fricke ref the NRA police instructor training program

I would train with Mark again.

[Cecil Burch]

Tom also has a really good DVD on the shotgun:

http://www.rangemaster.com/publications/training-dvds/

[DocGKR]

Bill Jeans, Rob Haught, Scott Reitz, Darryl Bolke (HiTS), Steve Fischer, Tom Givens are all good choices. Chris Costa gave an LE class here a couple of years ago that was actually quite good.

[Dagga Boy]

Steve Fisher was listed in my original draft that got lost. I have not had an actual shotgun class with Steve, but I know he does a good job of teaching the gauge. This would also be true of Mike Lamb as well.

[45dotACP]

Wow, thanks for all the references guys. So now I have a gear question...my shotgun is a 20 gauge Mossberg 500...seeing as I'm a huge newbie to shotgun training, would that be an inappropriate choice?

It's sorta my "do it all" scattergun, wearing a rifled barrel for hunting season, and a shorter barrel for skeet, as well as a longer tube for trap/hunting.

[HopetonBrown]

If you have a <20" barrel it's fine.

[Chuck Haggard]

The 20 gauge Mossbergs are pretty decent guns, and if you end up with a 12 that's a Mossberg they work exactly the same.

[jlw]

Looking back over this thread and at the schedules of the names mentioned, there don't appear to be many offerings above some very good fundamentals classes.

I reckon its hard to sell shotgun classes with so much of the market being carbine crazy.

Wasn't there talk on this forum some time back of trying to put together a Shotgun Summit?


* Scotty Reitz does have some top level shotgun classes on his schedule, but once travel costs and time are factored in to get from GA to CA and back for a two day class, they are pretty much out of range.

[Chuck Haggard]

Wasn't there talk on this forum some time back of trying to put together a Shotgun Summit?



We were talking a retro summit at one time, shotguns and revolvers.

[jlw]

Here is the thread. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9202-any-2-day-shotgun-course-recommendations&highlight=shotgun+summit) Everyone should note that TLG gave a shoutout to Erik Lund in that thread...

Oh yeah, some guy named TPD23 was posting in it.

[Chuck Haggard]

Here is the thread. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9202-any-2-day-shotgun-course-recommendations&highlight=shotgun+summit)
Oh yeah, some guy named TPD23 was posting in it.

I hear that guy is an overrated has been.

[Dagga Boy]

Looking back over this thread and at the schedules of the names mentioned, there don't appear to be many offerings above some very good fundamentals classes.

I reckon its hard to sell shotgun classes with so much of the market being carbine crazy.

Wasn't there talk on this forum some time back of trying to put together a Shotgun Summit?


* Scotty Reitz does have some top level shotgun classes on his schedule, but once travel costs and time are factored in to get from GA to CA and back for a two day class, they are pretty much out of range.

I actually prefer to do the shotgun in single day increments. Having done a 5 day shotgun class followed by a 2 day class the next week at a different place, you can lose focus pretty easy, and it is very hard on both guns and shooters. Overall, for most LE and Citizens, I think you get the most absorbed learning in single day format.

[jlw]

I actually prefer to do the shotgun in single day increments. Having done a 5 day shotgun class followed by a 2 day class the next week at a different place, you can lose focus pretty easy, and it is very hard on both guns and shooters. Overall, for most LE and Citizens, I think you get the most absorbed learning in single day format.

Yeah but traveling from GA all the way to CA for a 1-day class...

Maybe if some guys in the Dallas area were to put on a one day advanced shotgun class combined with something else, I could cut the travel costs and time in half.

[shootist26]

I would travel for a 1-day advanced shotgun class.

I took a couple of shotgun classes last year which were local and we spent a good portion of the day patterning. Also, most students barely knew how to run a shotgun in an environment that wasn't the trap stand. To be fair, they were level 1 classes, but still...

[luckyman]

Yeah but traveling from GA all the way to CA for a 1-day class...

Maybe if some guys in the Dallas area were to put on a one day advanced shotgun class combined with something else, I could cut the travel costs and time in half.

The ITTS shotgun 3 class is two days, if that helps. I'll have to admit, two days /375 rounds is plenty for me for a shotgun class [emoji1]

[jlw]

The ITTS shotgun 3 class is two days, if that helps. I'll have to admit, two days /375 rounds is plenty for me for a shotgun class [emoji1]

Yes, and ITTS is in California, and I am in Georgia, as I have already mentioned twice in this thread referencing training with them. That's an extremely expensive nut to crack.

[Dagga Boy]

I know some guys at GALEFI......maybe they could host Scott in conjunction with a conference or something.....

[jlw]

I know some guys at GALEFI......maybe they could host Scott in conjunction with a conference or something.....

That's a thought for 2016.

[Drang]

When the FGS moved to it's new location, and became the FLG&R, they advertised a "Shotgun 101" class. Apparently I was the only one interested, so they dropped it. (As a side note, and FWIW, when I took their "intermediate" handgun class, there was only one other student; when I took their "urban tactics" class, pistol and carbine, there were three of us.)

I keep haunting the websites for Firearms Academy of Seattle and Insights, in hopes that I can manage the time to take a class, but so far, no luck.
Maybe I should have just skipped work when Tom Givens was at FAS...

Yeah but traveling from GA all the way to CA for a 1-day class...
I admire your restraint in not trying to get the taxpayers to foot the bill for the sake of research.

[jlw]

I admire your restraint in not trying to get the taxpayers to foot the bill for the sake of research.

Sometimes the taxpayers can be insistent though.

[jlw]

For LE trainers looking to get an instructor ticket punched, the NRA LEAD program as long as Mark Fricke is the instructor is what I would recommend over most of the government agency schools.


I second Mark Fricke ref the NRA police instructor training program


I would train with Mark again.


I saw on the NRA LEAD page that they have a 4-hour Tactical Shotgun Instructor course upcoming in Alabama. I called to see if Mark Fricke was teaching the class. The folks at the NRA LEAD told me they do not disclose who will be teaching the courses.

To confirm, I asked, "So you won't tell a prospective student who the instructor will be?" The person acted surprised that anyone would want to know.

[Chuck Whitlock]

http://www.aftt.org/index.html

The website looks like it hasn't been updated in a while, but you might be able to get a hold of Mark directly through it and ask.

[LHS]

Where can I find a list of upcoming Rob Haught classes? Last time I looked I did not find anything recent.

There generally hasn't been enough interest to have a list of scheduled classes lately. That said, I am looking into bringing him back to Arizona (either Casa Grande or Prescott) in the next year, if I can get enough interest to make it financially feasible.

[HopetonBrown]

I took a Rob Haught class in '13. Some LEOs traveled 3 1/2 hours from a neighboring state, and another group traveled 4 hours from within the state. Schedule it and they will come.

[PT Doc]

There generally hasn't been enough interest to have a list of scheduled classes lately. That said, I am looking into bringing him back to Arizona (either Casa Grande or Prescott) in the next year, if I can get enough interest to make it financially feasible.

Does he ever come to Georgia or nearby?

[ranger]

Erik Lund should be mentioned here as well.

I took a one day class in Atlanta with Erik Lund - it was a great class and got very good reviews. JLW, maybe you can host a Erik Lund class in GA?

[jlw]

I took a one day class in Atlanta with Erik Lund - it was a great class and got very good reviews. JLW, maybe you can host a Erik Lund class in GA?

I have hosted three Erik Lund courses. Plus, he and I taught a 3-day/3-gun instructor development course, and we did a rifle school for an agency.

Hopefully, we will do another class at my place this fall.

[Chuck Haggard]

I saw on the NRA LEAD page that they have a 4-hour Tactical Shotgun Instructor course upcoming in Alabama. I called to see if Mark Fricke was teaching the class. The folks at the NRA LEAD told me they do not disclose who will be teaching the courses.

To confirm, I asked, "So you won't tell a prospective student who the instructor will be?" The person acted surprised that anyone would want to know.

What's the date? I can call Mark and ask.

[jlw]

My earlier post didn't work so I will try again. Shotguns are really my "thing" operationally and the long gun I have done the most real world work with. I have been to a lot of schools and training trying to perfect the Art of the Master blaster. About half were good. Here is who I recommend.

Scott Reitz at ITTS. Scotty likely has more actual real world time on the gauge and been in shootings with them. I prefer his handling SOP's over everything else out there.

Rob Haught, just to learn Robs methodology on short sticking the gauge is great. Rob was actually very impressed with me and my guys gun handling skills on the gun itself that came from ITTS/LAPD metro. Using the handling skills from ITTS combined with Rob's stuff is great, and worked well for me operationally and was very well tested in the field.

Tom Givens......its Tom Givens, nuff said.

If you can ever get Bill Jeans as he has sort of retired, it is worth any time you can invest.

Most of the other classes I have been to I was more capable and better versed on the subject (sometimes a WHOLE lot better) than the instructors and they simply became time to shoot someone else's program with no real benefit other than trigger time.

For LE trainers looking to get an instructor ticket punched, the NRA LEAD program as long as Mark Fricke is the instructor is what I would recommend over most of the government agency schools.


I second Mark Fricke ref the NRA police instructor training program


I would train with Mark again.


What's the date? I can call Mark and ask.


I've already confirmed that he is not teaching this particular class. That's not the point though. The point is that they wouldn't tell a prospective student who was instructing the class, and they acted shocked that anyone would even want to know.

I wouldn't go onto a car lot, hand them my money, and then tell them just bring around whichever model they wanted me to have.

[SLG]

There generally hasn't been enough interest to have a list of scheduled classes lately. That said, I am looking into bringing him back to Arizona (either Casa Grande or Prescott) in the next year, if I can get enough interest to make it financially feasible.

I would try really hard to make that class if you do it.

[Kyle Reese]

I attended Tom Givens' Defensive Shotgun class in Culpeper this past Sunday. Like his other offerings, this was a superb class, and I took a lot away from it. Definitely worth considering if he's in your AO.

[The Apprentice]

I'm in land area while I can't personally recommend this place because I've never been but I do plan on trying them out within the next year. It is called The Site in Mt Carroll IL looks like a nice facility and I know Alias training uses if for some of their instructors that come through the area.