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Lon
05-15-2015, 11:58 PM
Interesting case for you Ohio cops out there specifically, here is a link to the decision they just came out with:

http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/15a0092p-06.pdf

For those that aren't familiar with Ohio's OC laws, OC is legal without any license whatsoever. It's codified in the Ohio Revised Code 9.68. Also by case law in Klein v. Leis. Unfortunately many Ohio cops still haven't caught on or been taught that this is so.

The short version is this: guy and his wife were out walking their dog. He's oc'ing a pistol. Passerby gets into an argument with them about the legality of OC, then calls Toledo PD saying "there's a guy walking down the road carrying a gun in the open". Toledo PD dispatch sends a unit out. Said officer ends up stopping, disarming and later arresting the guy for "failing to disclose personal information". (This law requires people to provide their name, address and DOB if they've commited a crime or when there's RAS they committed a crime or witnessed certain crimes.) After the guy is cut loose, the PD eventually drops the charges. (Since OC isn't a crime and there was no RAS of a crime, it was a bad arrest) Guy sues. The District court threw out the suit and the guy appeals. 6th Circuit overturns the Distrcit courts decision, saying:


While the dispatcher and motorcyclist may not have known the details of Ohio’s open-carry firearm law, the police officer had no basis for such uncertainty. If it is appropriate to presume that citizens know the parameters of the criminal laws, it is surely appropriate to expect the same of law enforcement officers—at least with regard to unambiguous statutes.(They refer to the recent Heien v NC decision in the citation)

And this:


While open-carry laws may put police officers (and some motorcyclists) in awkward
situations from time to time, the Ohio legislature has decided its citizens may be entrusted with
firearms on public streets. Ohio Rev. Code §§ 9.68, 2923.125. The Toledo Police Department
has no authority to disregard this decision—not to mention the protections of the Fourth
Amendment—by detaining every “gunman” who lawfully possesses a firearm. See Ohioans for
Concealed Carry, Inc. v. Clyde, 896 N.E.2d 967, 976 (Ohio 2008) (holding that Ohio’s statewide
handgun policy preempts contrary exercises of a local government’s police power). And it has
long been clearly established that an officer needs evidence of criminality or dangerousness
before he may detain and disarm a law-abiding citizen

I'm not a huge OC fan, but it's legal and I make sure my guys know not to do stupid shit like this. It's a good decision by the 6th for the most part. There's some language in the decision about "assault rifles and illicit weapons" I wish they would have explained more fully. I've read all of the Circuit cases (Black, J.L, and Ubiles, etc.) they mention and they are a great read if you're interested in what's PC and what's not when it comes to dealing with legally armed citizens.

KeeFus
05-16-2015, 05:31 AM
Thanks for the follow-up on this. I found this case searching for OC/Fourth Amendment stuff a few months ago and was curious where it was going. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14725-Northrup-v-City-of-Toledo

So, if I'm reading that right, the lawsuit was allowed to continue to a jury trial?

Lon
05-16-2015, 08:54 AM
Yes. My guess is Toledo will settle.

Forgot about that thread.

KeeFus
05-16-2015, 09:09 AM
Yes. My guess is Toledo will settle.

Forgot about that thread.

I figured they would. No worries about that thread, I put it here so when I search for it in the future I can find one or both threads.

Beat Trash
05-17-2015, 09:32 AM
We haven't had issues for a few years. But for a period there was a group in the Cincinnati area that would open carry and try their best to get arrested. They had others constantly covering them with video. Their goal was to entice a landmark court case. Our legal department ensured everyone was instructed via inservice training as to can and what can not be done by the responding officer.

If you are a Ohio LEO in a smaller agency without a legal department then I might suggest you invite one of your county prosecutors out for lunch sometime if you have any questions as to where the "gray area" of the law might be.

A huge thing to overcome in the minds of some officers, is the concept of using inducing panic (O.R.C. 2917.31) as probable cause. Just because a person is walking his dog down the street with a holstered pistol and Susie Soccer Mom get scared at the sight of it and call 911, that in and of itself does not constitute probable cause for an Inducing Panic offense. Also by definition, if I am carrying any type of long gun off of my shoulder via a sling, that is the same as a holstered pistol and is legally open carry. Even if it's an "assault rifle".

My personal opinion is that open carry in an inter-city urban environment is not the smartest thing in the world to do. It makes you a target for the Thugs. They now know that you are armed. You do not know which one of them are armed. They will just shoot you in the back of the head when you are not looking and take your pistol. Most of the individuals who open carry a pistol have no training in weapon retention. If they did, they surely would not be using some of the holsters that I see being utilized.

DocGKR
05-17-2015, 10:16 AM
Lon and Beat Trash: Good commentary.

OC in urban and suburban areas may indeed be legal in many locales, but it sure is stupid...

Lon
05-17-2015, 10:59 AM
We haven't had issues for a few years. But for a period there was a group in the Cincinnati area that would open carry and try their best to get arrested. They had others constantly covering them with video. Their goal was to entice a landmark court case. Our legal department ensured everyone was instructed via inservice training as to can and what can not be done by the responding officer.

If you are a Ohio LEO in a smaller agency without a legal department then I might suggest you invite one of your county prosecutors out for lunch sometime if you have any questions as to where the "gray area" of the law might be.


Good advice. I would also recommend asking said prosecutor for case cites backing up what they tell you. Also get the right prosecutor. They specialize, just like cops. Prosecutors cannot know everything about every law. Its just impossible. I've had to "advise" our prosecutor's office a couple of times when they told us something that wasn't quite accurate.

Beat Trash's legal department put out an excellent memo on OC years ago. Its been the foundation of ALOT of OC training for LE in this state. I know I've used it and passed a copy out to my guys.