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JodyH
05-14-2015, 05:22 PM
I finally have my Benelli M4 setup the way I like it (to replace the Beretta 1301 Tac as my primary house long gun).

Benelli M4 18.5"
Mesa Tactical Urbino stock w/Limbsaver buttpad
Freedom Fighter Tactical titanium full length magazine tube (7+1+1 ghost)
Freedom Fighter Tactical 1/2" titanium charging handle
XS Big Dot tritium front sight
assorted 922r parts because I'm a law abiding subject

Patterns Federal LE13300 #00 buck into 8" at 30 yards.
At 12 yards on a full size IPSC steel silhouette I was getting 5 shots on steel from low ready in 1.3 seconds (.20 splits) with #00.
So far it's fed every slug, buck and birdshot (around 350 rounds so far most of it #00) I've run through it with nary a hiccup, and best of all no tube lock from bumping the bolt release.
:cool:

3391

Jay Cunningham
05-14-2015, 05:27 PM
The proverbial Big Stick.

Haraise
05-14-2015, 05:30 PM
Awesome. Where's the balance point on that?

JodyH
05-14-2015, 05:39 PM
Awesome. Where's the balance point on that?
Loaded with 9 #00 it balances between the loading port and the front handguard.

HopetonBrown
05-14-2015, 05:45 PM
I haven't shot mine in a long time. Here's what I've done to it.

Benelli M4 18.5"
Mesa Tactical Urbino stock w/Limbsaver buttpad
Carrier Comp titanium full length magazine tube (7+1+1 ghost)
Carrier Comp aluminum follower
Blue Force Gear Vickers VCAS sling
2 day Louis Awerbuck (RIP) shotgun course

JodyH
05-14-2015, 05:48 PM
A few notes:
The factory stock is stupidly long, the Urbino is within 1/4" of how I run my AR and FAL stocks... IOW perfect.
Changing out the mag tube requires a heat gun and a vice but isn't as hard as Youtube makes it out to be, took me about 5 minutes.
The center of the XS sight is much taller than the factory sight, good thing the rear sight has a lot of vertical adjustment because I needed about +0.200" to get zero'd.
I can run the M4 as fast as I can the 1301 and recoil is similar, although the M4 is noticeably heavier.

Dagga Boy
05-14-2015, 06:14 PM
In the near future I will be investing in a short barreled M4. I was set on the 1301, but seeing the baffled looks of all the Beretta folks about the issues does not give me confidence that they are serious about the gun. I talked to their LE folks about the loading issue a long time ago and was "dismissed" as it not being an issue and they had not heard about it. The reports I am getting from LE guys running the M4's hard in the field are all very positive.

SpyderMan2k4
05-15-2015, 11:17 PM
I'm assuming no issues with the ghost load? I've seen people say fun for range/competition but they wouldn't do it for HD, but it didn't seem like they ran it enough to really uncover any issues.

JodyH
05-16-2015, 08:11 AM
Nearly every tube full at the range has included a ghost round with no issues. It's currently sitting just inside the open door of my bedroom safe 7+1 no ghost.

SJC3081
05-16-2015, 09:04 AM
I thought the 1301 was the holy grail,why choose the M4.
My choice is same as yours but I use a T1 with a ADM low mount, Vickers sling and
7+1+1 Winchester 2.75 ounce slugs.

JodyH
05-16-2015, 09:38 AM
Re: 1301, see my post where bumping the bolt release results in a show stopping tube lockup malfunction.
The Beretta is the better shotgun in pretty much every category, but it's one flaw is a fatal one as far as I'm concerned when it comes to using it for self defense.

Doug
05-16-2015, 06:10 PM
I found this video explaining the M4 very interesting in light of the 1301 Tactical issues. I was unaware the M4 would not release a shell from the tube when you racked the handle unless the person specifically released the shell from a control mechanism.

https://youtu.be/a6GWfg193vQ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GJM
05-16-2015, 08:41 PM
Re: 1301, see my post where bumping the bolt release results in a show stopping tube lockup malfunction.
The Beretta is the better shotgun in pretty much every category, but it's one flaw is a fatal one as far as I'm concerned when it comes to using it for self defense.

I agree with the better part and the fatal flaw part. I just got a Benelli M2 3 Gun, and have paperwork submitted to cut the barrel to 14 inches. That is my 1301 replacement, along with a pair of Benelli M2 20 gauge guns.

Dagga Boy
05-16-2015, 10:34 PM
I found this video explaining the M4 very interesting in light of the 1301 Tactical issues. I was unaware the M4 would not release a shell from the tube when you racked the handle unless the person specifically released the shell from a control mechanism.

https://youtu.be/a6GWfg193vQ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good video. That was actually shot on our home range and CMC is who I will be getting my M4 from. As a long time Benelli M1 user and Armorer, it took a lot for me to get my head around the M4. Based on the feedback I am getting from LE guys running them in the field and the few times I have shot them, I think there is no doubt that it is the way to go as a defensive and anti personnel gun, even if there may be better options in the competitive/3 gun world. Wow......sort of like everything else.

JodyH
05-16-2015, 11:01 PM
Shot 75 rounds of FC #00 buck today on some reload drills, no problems and I'm starting to get the hang of the "Benelli way" of doing things.
I haven't started playing with slug select yet, but I'm thinking it'll be a breeze on the M4.
No malfunctions and 8" swinging plates at 25 yards were getting the snot slapped out of them.

Jakus
05-16-2015, 11:19 PM
Shot 75 rounds of FC #00 buck today on some reload drills, no problems and I'm starting to get the hang of the "Benelli way" of doing things.
I haven't started playing with slug select yet, but I'm thinking it'll be a breeze on the M4.
No malfunctions and 8" swinging plates at 25 yards were getting the snot slapped out of them.


Any plans for a weapon light? Thought on how to best do that on an M4?

I'm more familiar with the M2 in bird gun form, but a Benelli HD may find its way into my safe.

Why m4 vs m2?
Why 18.5 vs 14 inch?

GJM
05-17-2015, 07:12 AM
Based on the feedback I am getting from LE guys running them in the field and the few times I have shot them, I think there is no doubt that it is the way to go as a defensive and anti personnel gun, even if there may be better options in the competitive/3 gun world. Wow......sort of like everything else.

I would be interested in you elaborating on this statement. I ended up with the M2 as my bear gun choice. While not strictly anti-personnel, anti-bear is pretty close. :)

JodyH
05-17-2015, 08:39 AM
Any plans for a weapon light? Thought on how to best do that on an M4?

I'm more familiar with the M2 in bird gun form, but a Benelli HD may find its way into my safe.

Why m4 vs m2?
Why 18.5 vs 14 inch?
I'm still thinking about lights. The Surefire forend is the logical solution but a barrel clamp rail mounted light would be lighter weight and more versatile.

M4 vs M2, the gas assist is a little easier on the shoulder than the straight inertia powered guns and allows for faster followup shots.

18.5" because I usually take my shotgun with me as the long gun of choice in the travel trailer on vacation and NFA can be a pain in the ass.

SJC3081
05-17-2015, 08:48 AM
http://www.avatactical.com
This seems like the best option but I don't have any hands on experience.

SLG
05-17-2015, 09:08 AM
I too would like to hear Nyeti's reasoning. I don't consider myself a sophisticated semi auto shotgun user, but I choose an M2 as my semi auto of choice because I've seen enough M4 malfunctions to be wary of it. I don't know enough about them to relate anything useful though, which is part of my problem.

JodyH
05-17-2015, 09:43 AM
Just observing ejection patterns with various ammo versus my Beretta 1310, the M4 has weaker ejection with all rounds.

It does handle serious slugs (Brenneke Special Forces, 1.25oz @ 1475fps) and full power buckshot better than the Beretta though. When I'd shoot the Brennekes in the 1301 you could feel the gun getting battered by them, the M4 doesn't blink.
With low powered birdshot or even low recoil buckshot the M4 dribbles hulls and does feel sluggish compared to the 1301.
I haven't had any malfunctions with mine and I'm closing in on 750 rounds of a variety of shells from #7.5 to serious slugs and I haven't cleaned it yet.

I have noticed that just like an AR, the M4 likes to be well lubed. I keep the bolt and rails well greased with TW25 and add some Breakfree CLP to the mix if I'm going to be shooting lightweight loads.

JodyH
05-17-2015, 09:49 AM
http://www.avatactical.com
This seems like the best option but I don't have any hands on experience.
I like that, thanks for the link.

GJM
05-17-2015, 10:16 AM
I too would like to hear Nyeti's reasoning. I don't consider myself a sophisticated semi auto shotgun user, but I choose an M2 as my semi auto of choice because I've seen enough M4 malfunctions to be wary of it. I don't know enough about them to relate anything useful though, which is part of my problem.

I have been carefully watching Jody's experience, and wishing him well with it. I was into a M4 for about $4k, between all the stuff, and couldn't get it working for my use. That use may have been different enough than Jody's and Darryl's intended use, that it doesn't compare. Will explain in detail later, after I travel.

JodyH
05-17-2015, 04:47 PM
I have two big 3 gun matches back to back the end of the month that should be a good test of the M4.
There's something about matches, training and field conditions that bring problems to a head that even hard square range shooting just doesn't do.
If a gun is going to shit the bed, it will do it in the middle of a match, during a training class or after crashing through the brush for 3 days.

Dagga Boy
05-17-2015, 10:37 PM
I would be interested in you elaborating on this statement. I ended up with the M2 as my bear gun choice. While not strictly anti-personnel, anti-bear is pretty close. :)

It would be mine as well.

My experience with the Inertia Benellis is they love full power ammo, and are super reliable with full power foder. We had great luck with them with slug, 00 and 000 buck. Training ammo and low recoil were a different ball game especially with weight on the guns like lights and sidesaddle arrangements. The 14 inch guns were particularly picky. We used them extensively on our SWAT team,so I had a ton of time on them.
So, a lightweight m2 without a ton of stuff on it and bear loads....top choice.

For a 14" gun with a Aimpoint H2, light, sidesaddle and the ability to easily switch rear stocks based on needs that will run anything is desirable. Essentially for a pure anti personnel and training gun that can use many of the accessories I like, it makes sense. The guys I know having success are using them instead of rifles as they deal with a lot of cars. They are running them almost exclusively with slug, and they are not having issues from the reports I am getting.

GJM
05-17-2015, 11:05 PM
That reminded me I owed a summary on this.

After years of carrying a 14 inch 870 in AK, decided I wanted to try a gas gun. Bought the M4. From the get go, it wouldn't run full power buckshot. I lubed, and "broke it in" with a few boxes of 3 inch magnum loads. Still wasn't up to my spec.

I didn't like the OEM pistol grip stock, as it was long and beat me in the field with the pistol grip, when carrying it. Tried the OEM collapsible, big bucks stock. Totally worthless as the cheek weld only worked for me in the fully extended position. Got a OEM straight stock, and didn't like the cheek weld. Got the Mesa, and it was better but I didn't like a pistol grip. My ideal stock would be a Comfertech, like for the M2, in the compact length.

I don't care for ghost rings sights, as for me they are not as accurate as an a smaller aperture sight, or a dot, and are way slower for me than open sights, or a fiber optic bead.

Damn thing was very heavy carrying in the field. The Beretta I got on a lark, at the same time, seemed to shoot better, and weigh much less.

All this (reliability, stock, sights) has me back to my 14 inch 870, a pair of Benelli M2 20 gauge guns, cut down and tweaked, and a Benelli M2 3 Gun in the process of being cut down to 14.

Darryl why did you find the 14 inch Benelli inertia guns less reliable -- unlike gas, a shorter barrel shouldn't effect functioning?

John Ralston
05-18-2015, 09:45 AM
I found this video explaining the M4 very interesting in light of the 1301 Tactical issues. I was unaware the M4 would not release a shell from the tube when you racked the handle unless the person specifically released the shell from a control mechanism.

https://youtu.be/a6GWfg193vQ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's true for the inertia models as well.

My M1 will feed anything you throw into it, from superlight target loads on up to 3" Mags of 00 or slugs. Never had an issue, and it, for me, is the perfect HD gun. I did chop the stock down about 3/4" added a limbsaver pad, had it drilled and tapped for a pic rail and it wears a Delta Point. The 21" VR might not be quite as nimble as an 18.5, but it is still quite light and quick to point.

Dagga Boy
05-18-2015, 11:03 AM
I had six Benelli m1's in our SWAT inventory. Four full size, and later two entries. When I started with our team doing the firearms training and armory work, the guns were stripped down and only had slings. They ran like tops. We added butt stock shell holders from Eagle industries. They ran fine. We added lights. We started having issues. Some changes were made to the light design, still issues. Side saddles were added, and training loads didn't run as well. We went to low recoil ammunition department wide and I got Vang Comp 870's as our issued shotguns. Not for SWAT. The low recoil ammunition would not reliably run the Benelli's. We had to order full power ammunition just for the SWAT guns.
These guns were shot quite a bit compared to most. Usually 250 rounds a month would be normal. I was a factory Armorer. They were well maintained. Even in the Benelli armorers school they indicated that anything that inhibits recoil hinders function. This ranged from added accessories to such large heavily muscled users who were so strong there guns would not function because they inhibited the recoil too much.

I have had numerous M1's. I still have an M3. For a counter bear gun a stripped down m1 or M2 would work perfect with slug. For a gun with lots of stuff on it, I have seen the folks with m4's having far better luck. For "cop stuff" the m4 is a solid package.

Surf
05-18-2015, 11:47 AM
We currently have 20 M1 supers that we still run, ten are 14 inches and ten are 18 inch. Some are pretty damn beat up. I personally own an M1 and an M3 and armor them as well. We have been running a single 14" M4 with the LE stock for 2 years now with great success and I have seen only a couple more personally owned that have a lot of use and those have ran well. We hope to switch over to all M4's when we get the go on funds. Our lone M4 runs everything, even low power stuff like Less Lethal, trap / skeet loads and various birdshot. The inertia models always prefer full power loads but that may vary from shotgun to shotgun and the shooters technique. I personally prefer an 18" barrel in the open but close in work I do like the 14".

I do not like the M4 LE/Mil collapsible stock and the length of pull on the factory pistol grip stocks are too long, so I go with the Mesa. I do not like to run the side saddles that attach via the trigger pin like the Mesa and the Chicago screw. They will pinch the receiver ever so slightly and may cause cycling issues. This becomes very much the case when the unit gets loose over heavy use and then the user clamps it even harder. So I opt for a top drilled and tapped receiver mount.

JodyH
05-18-2015, 12:01 PM
I have noticed that my M4 gets along great with the "stretch" technique of shotgun shooting. I've heard the inertia guns have issues with that.

John Ralston
05-18-2015, 12:42 PM
I think the Limbsaver helps a ton. Lots of squish, so no matter how hard you lean into it, it still has room to move towards your shoulder. I don't have a ton of crap hanging off of mine however.

SLG
05-18-2015, 05:18 PM
Nyeti makes some good points, and they are things I've seen and heard from others as well. Unfortunately, I've also seen and heard the problems that GJM describes. I guess I'll just have to get an M4 and try it out for myself. If it doesn't work, it goes in the military collection I guess.

jlw
05-18-2015, 06:36 PM
I recently bought a trade-in M1 (power company security force). I'm an 870 guy at heart, but the price was too good to not give it a whirl.

Off the rack it wouldn't run a light birdshot load, but ran full power Flite Control. A person very much in the know on these guns gave it a once over, and it is in much better shape now. Lube in the right places will work wonders. I will test those same loads in it soon.

I ran it yesterday in a Tom Givens shotgun class. My bird shot was a 3-3/4 dram load as I didn't want to waste training time. It ran that stuff fine. It handled both Remington managed recoil 8=pellet 00 buck and some cheap Royal Book low recoil 00 without fail. I fired six Winchester Ranger low recoil slugs through it. On the last round (bolt lock), the hull didn't completely eject.

The only accessories on the gun are a velcro sidesaddle and a sling.

I don't live in a place where there are critters that want to eat me, and the tax payers have demanded that I have a few options for operational use.

As I wrote, I'm an 870 guy at heart. I've had some really good cornbread, but nobody makes cornbread as good as my grandmother's.

Anything other than an 870 just feels wrong when it comes to the manipulations. However, if I can't solve the problem with seven rounds of 00-buck, it's a really big problem, and I need help. I was impressed with the speed and control with which I could put the rounds on target, and I am not one to dress a gun with a lot of gadgets.

I feel very comfortable using it for repelling anyone who lives through the tactical ankle biting my terrier will inflict.

GJM
05-18-2015, 07:20 PM
JLW, where were the critical areas for lube?

jlw
05-18-2015, 07:55 PM
JLW, where were the critical areas for lube?

I don't know. That's why I turned it over to someone who knew what they were doing.

GJM
05-18-2015, 09:03 PM
I don't know. That's why I turned it over to someone who knew what they were doing.

I forgot, you are management. :)

jlw
05-18-2015, 09:33 PM
I forgot, you are management. :)


I don't have to know what I am doing. I just have to hire people who know what they are doing.

JodyH
05-19-2015, 07:06 AM
On my M4 I lubed it AR style.
Bolt, bolt carrier and receiver rail's got a generous amount of TW25 grease. I cleaned the sticky stuff off the recoil spring and from the extension tube and lightly oiled the spring. Trigger group gets oiled. The gas system just gets wiped down well and inspected.
If I know I'm going to be shooting light loads I add a few drops of oil to the bolt and the rails.
It's worked so far.

Dagga Boy
05-19-2015, 12:51 PM
I have found over the years that running anything over wet is good. While I get he evil eye from Wayne fairly often when I show up to the range with dry guns, I do know better. When I am in classes where I know I will be shooting a lot, I am the king of just pour lube on to fix most ills.

Unobtanium
05-19-2015, 10:34 PM
My M4 sees very little use, but it has been an amazing piece of hardware:

Carriercomp Ti 7-shot tube
Geissele hammer
M1014 current issue barrel (fixed MOD choke)
Meprolite sights
Custom bolt release

Unobtanium
05-19-2015, 10:35 PM
On my M4 I lubed it AR style.
Bolt, bolt carrier and receiver rail's got a generous amount of TW25 grease. I cleaned the sticky stuff off the recoil spring and from the extension tube and lightly oiled the spring. Trigger group gets oiled. The gas system just gets wiped down well and inspected.
If I know I'm going to be shooting light loads I add a few drops of oil to the bolt and the rails.
It's worked so far.

I run mine the same way. Been shooting various M4S90's and M1014 since 2009-ish, and running them JUST like an AR is what they like. I prefer FIREClean on mine. TW25B works okay, but I prefer the Fireclean.

Surf
05-21-2015, 12:14 AM
I have noticed that my M4 gets along great with the "stretch" technique of shotgun shooting. I've heard the inertia guns have issues with that.Actually we use this even more when we use an "off the shoulder" type of technique. The inertia weapons will actually have a more rigid platform and will have a better ability to cycle. Of course we use more pressure than a standard stretch technique. We demo and train this often. If I think of it I will get the demo on film. Off the shoulder no stretch and off the shoulder with a positive stretch. We also call it bow and arrowing the weapon.

Dagga Boy
05-21-2015, 07:27 AM
Actually we use this even more when we use an "off the shoulder" type of technique. The inertia weapons will actually have a more rigid platform and will have a better ability to cycle. Of course we use more pressure than a standard stretch technique. We demo and train this often. If I think of it I will get the demo on film. Off the shoulder no stretch and off the shoulder with a positive stretch. We also call it bow and arrowing the weapon.

I've been using and teaching this a ton since training with Rob Haught and Ken Hackathorn over a decade ago. I will be stealing "bow and arrow" as a teaching analogy.....with credit.

JodyH
05-23-2015, 02:01 PM
Took the M4 out and shot 50 rounds of fairly light 1-1/8oz. #8's with the low aluminum heads on them as a reliability test.
It passed it with no problems.

Followed that up with 25 rounds of LE13300 #00, again zero issues.
At 10Y I ran 8 rounds of #00 from low ready into a IPSC target in 2.25 seconds, all pellets were inside the body C zone.

The Mesa stock and the XS front sight make everything from hosing at 10Y to 6" plates at 35Y easy.
Now I just need to get it on the clay thrower to see how it works on small, fast movers.

Unobtanium
05-27-2015, 04:39 AM
Took the M4 out and shot 50 rounds of fairly light 1-1/8oz. #8's with the low aluminum heads on them as a reliability test.
It passed it with no problems.

Followed that up with 25 rounds of LE13300 #00, again zero issues.
At 10Y I ran 8 rounds of #00 from low ready into a IPSC target in 2.25 seconds, all pellets were inside the body C zone.

The Mesa stock and the XS front sight make everything from hosing at 10Y to 6" plates at 35Y easy.
Now I just need to get it on the clay thrower to see how it works on small, fast movers.

Every M4 and M1014 I have had preferred STRONGLY the Remington 8-pelled 000 Buck load.

KeeFus
05-27-2015, 04:56 AM
I've been using and teaching this a ton since training with Rob Haught and Ken Hackathorn over a decade ago. I will be stealing "bow and arrow" as a teaching analogy.....with credit.

In regards to the "stretch" or "bow and arrow" technique...is this what you are referring too?


http://youtu.be/Gq74aiXn1b4

Surf
05-30-2015, 01:15 PM
I've been using and teaching this a ton since training with Rob Haught and Ken Hackathorn over a decade ago. I will be stealing "bow and arrow" as a teaching analogy.....with credit.I also give Rob credit every time I teach shotgun and stretching it and it really did open up my eyes with possibilities with the shotgun after training with him. I used an 870 at that time when training with Rob, but when I returned to our unit I applied a modified "stretch" into various shooting positions where we could not get a solid shoulder mount for the M1 inertia system to recoil against. In various off shoulder techniques, I would literally choke up on the weapon whereas the stock may go over the top of the shoulder, bringing the rear sight closer to my cheek and shooting eye. This places that primary shooting hand near the cheek, just like cheeking a bow. You need a good solid opposing stretch on the rear and forend so as not to get a face full of shotgun. It worked excellent with the Benelli M1's especially with a pistol grip which was even easier to gain leverage. Since I was a bow hunter and it looked like how one might mount a bow, I described it as a "bow and arrow" technique. Not sure if others have coined that term, but I use it as it gives a good visual and physical description of what is happening.


In regards to the "stretch" or "bow and arrow" technique...is this what you are referring too?


http://youtu.be/Gq74aiXn1b4Yes, the basic "stretch" or "push pull" technique or concept. There is a bit more to it when talking recovery and cycling the pump, on a pump shotgun and some guys who are good with a pump using this technique make them look like autoloaders.

The "bow and arrow" as I describe it can work as shouldered technique in that you push pull, however I really came up with that term "bow and arrow" to describe the "off shoulder" shotgun shooting techniques similar in how one might cheek an arrow while using the "stretch" or "push pull", however the amount of isometric strength increases over what I would consider normal for a shoulder mount technique. Again I developed or translated this to work with the inertia system of the Benelli M1 that we were using, however it works well no matter the shotgun as it greatly reduces weapon movement and this is very beneficial with an "off shoulder" technique.

I also use the "stretch" method when shooting heavier hitting weapons like say a battle rifle especially if I am shooting more rapid strings of fire, where fast sight recovery is very important.

SLG
05-30-2015, 01:33 PM
Rob taught me this technique about 10 years ago as well. Aside from heavy recoil, it works great with full auto. Rob's control of an M4 on full auto is pretty impressive.

Dagga Boy
05-30-2015, 10:51 PM
Just FYI as I will be the only one to note that the technique works great with an AUG. You can use it with other stuff, but it is exceptionally good with the AUG and allows you to compress it to shorter than a pistol for close quarters work.

JodyH
05-31-2015, 09:31 AM
Works great on a FAL as well.

Dagga Boy
05-31-2015, 01:11 PM
I works on most long guns. With things like the AUG, it is exceptional to be able to literally run the gun like a pistol, and allows for easy removal of the support hand for tasks like door opening and moving barriers.

JodyH
05-31-2015, 03:25 PM
Ran my Benelli M4 in our 3-gun match yesterday, it ran like a champ.
On the shotgun/pistol stage I was 10th out of 61 shooters with my M4 and P2000.
Texas star, several small poppers, a thrown clay and two popper tossed clays, zero misses and the M4 is a breeze to run fast.

ReverendMeat
05-31-2015, 10:32 PM
Nyeti, could you please clarify what you mean by "run the gun like a pistol"?

GJM
11-15-2015, 09:17 PM
I decided to round out my Benelli choices today, and bought a 14 inch M4 and 14 inch Nova. Should have the paperwork approved by the summer bear season.