The Mindset to Harm.

[GardoneVT]

How do you plugged-in instructors know when someone considering carrying a firearm-and the responsibilities thereof-doesn't have the mindset to do so ?

I don't pose this to condone an anti gun political view; it is simply an observation during my active duty days that a lot of folks in uniform were just not comfortable with deadly force.An attitude shared by many citizens too.I dont judge them for it-we all have different views ,that's life-but can an individual who thinks "concealed carry=paranoia" or "deadly force= never ever" change their mindset to understand the less warm and fuzzy side of Homo Sapiens ?

[breakingtime91]

How do you plugged-in instructors know when someone considering carrying a firearm-and the responsibilities thereof-doesn't have the mindset to do so ?

I don't pose this to condone an anti gun political view; it is simply an observation during my active duty days that a lot of folks in uniform were just not comfortable with deadly force.An attitude shared by many citizens too.I dont judge them for it-we all have different views ,that's life-but can an individual who thinks "concealed carry=paranoia" or "deadly force= never ever" change their mindset to understand the less warm and fuzzy side of Homo Sapiens ?

so I'm not a squared away or plugged in instructor but who do you mean by active duty? Were they grunts or were the just office or security forces personnel? I think you have to judge the demographic your considering before you try to change their opinions. While I was in I got to go to a lot of warrior mindset classes and honestly I wish I would of taken more notes. I doubt these classes would be/were offered to less combat orientated MOS. I think you could change peoples minds but they have to have the willingness to even consider it, which I am sure you are aware of.

[GardoneVT]

so I'm not a squared away or plugged in instructor but who do you mean by active duty?

Sample of one and all, but when I started carrying I had to check my pistol into and out of the Air Force base armory. This meant on occasion I had to wait for the civilian contractors & SF troops to arm and disarm at shift change. Lots of casual and sloppy gun handling, and nary a 'warrior mindset' in sight.

Then you had my finance squadron, staffed with people who were gung ho gun guys.In all fairness that might not be stereotype busting when its considered that Finance is a popular cross-train for HSLD troops looking for a quieter pace in the .mil .

Anyways,ive wondered if the combat mindset is something you have or you dont, or a factor that can be trained.

[breakingtime91]

Sample of one and all, but when I started carrying I had to check my pistol into and out of the Air Force base armory. This meant on occasion I had to wait for the civilian contractors & SF troops to arm and disarm at shift change. Lots of casual and sloppy gun handling, and nary a 'warrior mindset' in sight.

Then you had my finance squadron, staffed with people who were gung ho gun guys.In all fairness that might not be stereotype busting when its considered that Finance is a popular cross-train for HSLD troops looking for a quieter pace in the .mil .

Anyways,ive wondered if the combat mindset is something you have or you dont, or a factor that can be trained.

I think it can be conditioned. Common phrase is you always fall back on your lowest level of training. That means if you have no training or have never considered that you may be in a fight for you life, you have nothing to fall back on. I had someone laugh at this earlier, but I said "condition black". That is from a modified version of Jeff Coopers threat matrix, the USMC added the black. How I was explained it, most untrained people live in white, some in yellow, while most trained and locked on people live in yellow or orange. When the fight is on, if you are in condition white you are most likely going straight to "condition black" which means you are no longer able to make cognitive decisions on how to effectively change the situation. If you live in the yellow or orange you are able to quickly react to the situation and progress from there. I got to see LtCol Grossman talk and he said this is why you see police/marines/army/Special forces guys turn and fight while others are running. They were cognitively ready for something, they didn't lock up and are dealing with the situation the best they can. I think you can train this stuff, hell for some people it is their job. You just need the person your teaching to at least give you the opportunity to present the information.

[LSP552]

The majority of cops never really believe "it" will happen to them. Remember these are people who carry a gun everyday and see proof of evil intent on a regular basis. This is just personal opinion, but the average person rarely gets beyond some vague, passing thought that someone may try and take their life, and that they will be fighting to keep it.

Can you change this? Maybe, but it probably takes a personal connection to an unpleasant event to drive the message home.

[Hambo]

The majority of cops never really believe "it" will happen to them. Remember these are people who carry a gun everyday and see proof of evil intent on a regular basis. This is just personal opinion, but the average person rarely gets beyond some vague, passing thought that someone may try and take their life, and that they will be fighting to keep it.


This. I'm not in the training business, but I've mentioned before that I've been trying to help a friend who has had a CWP since Florida started issuing them. He enjoys the drills I run him through, but last week when we went out to lunch he said, "I forgot my pistol." I know I'm slow, but the light came on. Whatever his reasons for occasional carry, he's not serious and he likely never will be. He's a guy who has never been around violence and apparently he doesn't think it can happen to him.

[voodoo_man]

It is a process, just like anything else.

Though some people are born with an "instinct" to fight, rather than flight.

Most are turned into a fighter, or towards the "fight" with more confidence, more training and more experience.

Sometimes the "awakening" style enlightenment occurs on the spot during a "live or die" situation, I've seen it in person with a female officer who shot a guy. When I say she was harmless before that day, that would have been an understatement.

It all depends on your personal level of "want" to survive.

[KevinB]

Like VDM said - there is no one way.
Many people do not fully appreciate their levels of risk, and thus fail to either process their training, or for civilians, do not seek training. They lack the mindset due to lack of experiences.
In my experience training, especially very realistic training helps, however nothing beats an awakening...

I will say, that even switched on instructors may not have the same mindset, as the dedicated CCW'er (regardless of occupation).

[41magfan]

The mindset that allows for "I forgot my gun" is the same mindset - to a varying degree - that makes allowance for a "NPE" gun. It's also part and parcel of the same mindset that rationalizes the carry of a high capacity Glock 9mm with spare ammo SOME of the time as being perfectly acceptable, while carrying a pocket .380 ALL of the time is flirting with disaster.

If we were really honest, most of us have a chink in our mindset armor somewhere.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As a civilian with a few courses under my belt and my professional reading, I see:

1. Many gun folks are not serious - they have a car gun wrapped in a towel and never train. They don't carry. But they talk the techy talk and stopping power BS.

2. As mentioned many times, men are fearful of looking stupid in a dominance loaded test situation. It takes a cognitive effort to appreciate you can look like an idiot and learn from that.

3. There is a natural predilection against close in interpersonal violence that must be overcome for most of us. For the average person who has not been brought up in a fighting life, the answer is simulation training. The military and police use of such as there is a literature indicating it is successful. One has to beat one of the automatic brain responses to freeze or totally collapse in a fear response. The same goes for other emergency situations (fire, pilots, medicine). Simulation is the key for fear reduction and building automatic and correct perceptual and motor responses that don't necessarily take overt cognitive, conscious processing. Or when such is need, gives your a menu of correct actions.

4. Some folks face the realization that they cannot use deadly force. It is legit religious and philosophical world view that you cannot take a life, even of an attacker. We can disagree but I respect that. In fact, they don't bother me. It is the phoney gun guy in #1 that really annoys me, esp. when they posture.

5. Some folks may never break the fear/freeze response. Some may not want to put in the effort to do so.

[GardoneVT]

As a civilian with a few courses under my belt and my professional reading, I see:

1. Many gun folks are not serious - they...(snip).

I observed examples of every one of these factors recently.

Lets back up a moment-my local PD holds an annual citizens academy, and its a fairly comprehensive class block.One week was a simunitions FoF course, taught by the regional SRT squad.

We started with learning position Sul, then group movement ,stack tactics, lastly basic room clearing followed by a FoF exercise at the city rec center basement.

We stacked up, grabbed our blue G17Ls, and went to work.
We reached a room and I immediately slammed into a classmate frozen at the threshold. I dont generally yell KEEP MOVING while shoving mild mannered schoolteachers aside, but it was dark and staying still through a lit doorway didnt seem wise.

Gawdayum....I really need a weaponlight.....its friggin dark in here......

*lights come on*

Yay team! Now, where is this guy-

"POLICE!GET ON The Groun....on the ground....on the ground"

I see two disconcerting things. The first classmate in front, Mr Xbox Warrior who bragged about his game experience and new XD45 ,is backpedaling...while repeating ineffective commands. His Glock is pointing at the floor.

The next thing was that I was number two behind him. And I didnt know if this training gun was sighted in.

I gave Xbox Warrior three count mentally to get control. Once the instructor boxed him up against a corner, I could wait no longer.

Turned out the Smurf gun was sighted in just fine.

Once we de-geared and got the after action lowdown, he wasted no time.
"I didnt shoot cause I wanted to be sure it was a deadly force situation"

Thirty seconds later, he became the SRT instructor's newest 'training case'.

He wasnt the only classmate who choked at FoF- but he was the loudest one.Afterward he still maintained a desire to join LE.

I thought being in that exercise would have forced introspection of some kind.I sure learned a lot from the two exercises we ran. On that note....does anyone have a Surefire flashlight to donate for a needy,'financially oppressed' minority gun owner ? :D

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I was taking a class with Steve Moses in Dallas. Two incidents stuck in my mind.

1. Two women come face to face around a corner. One totally freezes, the other shoots. The first says that this is not for her. She realizes that she cannot and doesn't not want to shoot someone. Good decision. Could she train out of it, maybe - but she was a realist.

2. Mr. Martial Arts Maven - I'm talking to an instructor. We see MAM backing up, backing up as an instructor accosts him. Frozen, then he flops backwards on his butt. Then he 'dies'. The instructor says rude things about him. At intro, Iron Fist had proclaimed his prowess.

Me - so, the instructor (I know these folks) - choose me as the shooter when he gets off the X. Oops, he moves to my left hand direction and gets shot. I'm left handed and just watched for the move. Haha. But, then in a FOF run, I am forced to go through a door and then two instructors just open fire at two feet. No talky confrontation as for the others. Revenge. However, I shoot back and hit one in the 'head' and the other in COM. I get hit in the shoulder in the melee. I was going to use my revolver as an impact weapon (it was a surprise load - only had three rounds and you couldn't check) but we stopped and then laughed.

My point - regular folks need to do this sort of thing. Many won't. At the NTI - sometimes I was aggressive and sometimes I wasn't and critiqued. It is hard to sort out what is the correct response at times.

[45dotACP]

As a civilian with a few courses under my belt and my professional reading, I see:

1. Many gun folks are not serious - they have a car gun wrapped in a towel and never train. They don't carry. But they talk the techy talk and stopping power BS.

2. As mentioned many times, men are fearful of looking stupid in a dominance loaded test situation. It takes a cognitive effort to appreciate you can look like an idiot and learn from that.

3. There is a natural predilection against close in interpersonal violence that must be overcome for most of us. For the average person who has not been brought up in a fighting life, the answer is simulation training. The military and police use of such as there is a literature indicating it is successful. One has to beat one of the automatic brain responses to freeze or totally collapse in a fear response. The same goes for other emergency situations (fire, pilots, medicine). Simulation is the key for fear reduction and building automatic and correct perceptual and motor responses that don't necessarily take overt cognitive, conscious processing. Or when such is need, gives your a menu of correct actions.

4. Some folks face the realization that they cannot use deadly force. It is legit religious and philosophical world view that you cannot take a life, even of an attacker. We can disagree but I respect that. In fact, they don't bother me. It is the phoney gun guy in #1 that really annoys me, esp. when they posture.

5. Some folks may never break the fear/freeze response. Some may not want to put in the effort to do so.
This. Some people lock up in an emergency. First code blue I was ever in, one of the RNs I was working with at the time grabbed my shoulders, shook me a few times and said "do some real fucking compressions. If you don't break his ribs, it's not working." I asked "won't that injure him?" To which the RN replied "Not anymore than being dead. He's dead right now, so stop worrying about his ribs."

I got with the program.

It's a good lesson to learn. The ability to act, to me ever since, has been granted by knowing the consequences of inaction. Uncertainty causes inaction. If you know for certain you will die or your patient will die if you do nothing, you are just that much more likely to do anything...anything but nothing.

Conversely, if you can never convince yourself that something bad will happen, you will be shocked when it finally does and your decision making process is a step behind what it needs to be.

[voodoo_man]

Like VDM said - there is no one way.
Many people do not fully appreciate their levels of risk, and thus fail to either process their training, or for civilians, do not seek training. They lack the mindset due to lack of experiences.
In my experience training, especially very realistic training helps, however nothing beats an awakening...

I will say, that even switched on instructors may not have the same mindset, as the dedicated CCW'er (regardless of occupation).

This is something interesting, probably requires its own thread...

I have trained with many instructors and individuals that would fall into the "switched on" definition. There were some that when we go out to eat lunch or dinner after a class, you know to talk shit and tell stories, they aren't carrying. Not even a blade.

That is a huge turn off for me, if you know bad shit exists and that evil is out there, why are you going to go out into the world unarmed knowing. Same instructors teach mindset and speak empty words - not saying their instruction is poor, some of them are great instructors, but they aren't "switched on" by any definition.

Furthermore, go off the CCW'er aspect - many times I take classes and the guys teaching are the tip of the spear, yet they don't CCW or know anything about CCW tactics. That's a big turn off for me since I carry for a living and my battlefield isn't some mountain range or shithole in the middle of no where, its on the street.

[GardoneVT]

That is a huge turn off for me, if you know bad shit exists and that evil is out there, why are you going to go out into the world unarmed knowing.

It would seem there's a difference between knowing evil exists, and seeing it live and in color.

[Le Français]

On that note....does anyone have a Surefire flashlight to donate for a needy,'financially oppressed' minority gun owner ? :D

I have a light I'd be happy to send you. It's an old school incandescent G2, but it's a Surefire, and it works well. PM me an address and I'll get it to you if I can remember where I put it.

[KevinB]

It would seem there's a difference between knowing evil exists, and seeing it live and in color.


I don't think so, as I know a lot of folks who end evil all the time - but out of work do not carry (both Mil/Gov and LE). I view some of them as odds players as they choose not to carry based on an assumption that they will not run into some things while not at work, other really don't care for guns - other than as a specific work tool - and leave it at work.

It's their choice - but it does affect their credibility to run CCW/CCW Mindset stuff IMHO.

[1slow]

I don't think so, as I know a lot of folks who end evil all the time - but out of work do not carry (both Mil/Gov and LE). I view some of them as odds players as they choose not to carry based on an assumption that they will not run into some things while not at work, other really don't care for guns - other than as a specific work tool - and leave it at work.

It's their choice - but it does affect their credibility to run CCW/CCW Mindset stuff IMHO.

I've seen the same thing and do not understand it. There is some disconnect between what they deal with at work and their non work mindset.
Does this come from being disarmed so much in the military unless you are at the range or on a mission ? Does this then become habit ?

[voodoo_man]

I've seen the same thing and do not understand it. There is some disconnect between what they deal with at work and their non work mindset.
Does this come from being disarmed so much in the military unless you are at the range or on a mission ? Does this then become habit ?

It is a preparedness and willingness precedent that was established long ago, a failure in logic to be specific.

If a person knows there is evil in the world, is "switched on," if you want to use respective nomenclature, and they do not do everything in their power to be as prepared as they are willing to be then they are setting themselves up for failure.

[Odin Bravo One]

If you live in the yellow or orange you are able to quickly react to the situation and progress from there. I got to see LtCol Grossman talk and he said this is why you see police/marines/army/Special forces guys turn and fight while others are running. They were cognitively ready for something, they didn't lock up and are dealing with the situation the best they can.

This is another area where I do not agree with Grossman's opinions.

[BehindBlueI's]

I can tell you how to tell afterward. I've had people tell me in post shooting interviews they missed on purpose. This was such a foreign concept to me that I can barely begin to describe the psychological pressure that was in my head to not stop the interview, slap them, and then resume the interview. Your life was in danger and you decided to use your gun like a starter pistol? You just relied on fear to keep him from shooting you and fleeing instead? God favors fools and drunks, but come on! I've sure others who don't actually admit to it have done so as well based on their body language and responses during the interview.

I think many people have a gun but don't have a plan. They think the gun makes them safe. It is a talisman against evil and simply needs to be carried, not a tool that needs to be partnered with a plan and implemented. They never play the "what if" game. I'm a firm believer in running scenarios in your head. Me and my partner were at a restaurant with a very small dining room. A guy goes to the bathroom, a 1-holer right with a door about 2 yards behind my partner's chair. "What if" time. "What if he comes out with a gun to ambush us? I formed a plan. I was then vaguely surprised when he came out and went about his day. I'm vaguely surprised a lot. This is good. My first FTO told me my first traffic stop, expect them to run. Then when they stop you're pleasantly surprised. When they do run, you aren't surprised at all because you expected it and you'll execute your plan.

If you can convince someone of the value of the "what if" game, and if they do it, and if that plan involves shooting if necessary, I would hazard that its more likely than not they will shoot if required. I firmly believe that with exposure and training, most (not all) folks can reach the point where they can.

[Trooper224]

Eveyone imagines themself to be a gunfighter, until the fighting with guns actually starts.

[voodoo_man]

I can tell you how to tell afterward. I've had people tell me in post shooting interviews they missed on purpose. This was such a foreign concept to me that I can barely begin to describe the psychological pressure that was in my head to not stop the interview, slap them, and then resume the interview. Your life was in danger and you decided to use your gun like a starter pistol? You just relied on fear to keep him from shooting you and fleeing instead? God favors fools and drunks, but come on! I've sure others who don't actually admit to it have done so as well based on their body language and responses during the interview.

I think many people have a gun but don't have a plan. They think the gun makes them safe. It is a talisman against evil and simply needs to be carried, not a tool that needs to be partnered with a plan and implemented. They never play the "what if" game. I'm a firm believer in running scenarios in your head. Me and my partner were at a restaurant with a very small dining room. A guy goes to the bathroom, a 1-holer right with a door about 2 yards behind my partner's chair. "What if" time. "What if he comes out with a gun to ambush us? I formed a plan. I was then vaguely surprised when he came out and went about his day. I'm vaguely surprised a lot. This is good. My first FTO told me my first traffic stop, expect them to run. Then when they stop you're pleasantly surprised. When they do run, you aren't surprised at all because you expected it and you'll execute your plan.

If you can convince someone of the value of the "what if" game, and if they do it, and if that plan involves shooting if necessary, I would hazard that its more likely than not they will shoot if required. I firmly believe that with exposure and training, most (not all) folks can reach the point where they can.

I agree completely.

Ive had situations where I went into houses with backup, on shots fired calls, one specifically we heard the shots walking upto the domestic and I found myself solo, shy the two officers I walked up with clearing the stairs, they couldnt go inside, id call that being mesmerized by fear. Same officers reported off on time during a foot pursuit I was in with a guy that just shot and killed two drug dealers and shot at an officer. I had a long talk with them, going over a few things.

One Retired, one took a desk and hasnt been on the street since.

Every rookie I get I ask them a simple question before we get on the street to know where their head is.

"Would you hesitate to kill a 10 year old girl who was about to kill me?"

Some of the answers.....are shocking.

[Lost River]

How do you plugged-in instructors know when someone considering carrying a firearm-and the responsibilities thereof-doesn't have the mindset to do so ?

I don't pose this to condone an anti gun political view; it is simply an observation during my active duty days that a lot of folks in uniform were just not comfortable with deadly force.An attitude shared by many citizens too.I dont judge them for it-we all have different views ,that's life-but can an individual who thinks "concealed carry=paranoia" or "deadly force= never ever" change their mindset to understand the less warm and fuzzy side of Homo Sapiens ?

My observation is this: You probably know the types. They are the guys who will jump the hot/potentially violent calls and go out of their way to be involved. For example. A few months back my coworker/partner heard that the city had a bank robbery with two armed subjects on the run. He was literally running for his unmarked SUV and hauling ass while I was retrieving his body armor for him from the back seat. By the time we got in the area, he was fully suited up, complete with rifle on lap. Without hesitation he jumped into a chase with a known armed bad guy and when time came, literally ran past other cops to take one of the armed guys down. He has the mindset that if there is going to be a fight, he wants to be in it.

Another incident from just a few years ago. After an insanely high speed chase and big wreck, a gunman ran into a hotel, killed one patron and shot one trooper. I pressed him up a hotel stairwell. He was a smaller guy literally hiding behind a large woman that he was holding a gun to her head. He dumped half a mag at me when I was slicing the pie on the stairwell corner. I may have said some bad words.

I radioed for help and I had a younger city cop who is also on the city swat team show up in the stairwell. He knew I had just been shot at. When I told him the plan was when the BG got under 10 on his countdown (threatening to execute the hostage)we were rushing up the stairs to shoot him at close/contact distance, and that one of the two of us would likely get shot, but he likely couldn't get us both before one of us put rounds into his head. The young city cop never even hesitated, even when faced with a 50/50 chance of eating rounds. This kid had a fighter mindset.

I don't know about teaching it. I think people are simply wired towards it, or not. While training helps, I don't think you can create the kind of person who will aggressively go into harms way if its not already in their blood.

That said, you can develop those who do have it through training, to make them more efficient (not sure that is an accurate descriptor) in their mindset (focusing on achieving the objective) and skill sets (how to accomplish their objective) in a violent and or austere environment..

Hope that helps a little.

[LSP552]

I don't know about teaching it. I think people are simply wired towards it, or not. While training helps, I don't think you can create the kind of person who will aggressively go into harms way if its not already in their blood.

That said, you can develop those who do have it through training, to make them more efficient (not sure that is an accurate descriptor) in their mindset (focusing on achieving the objective) and skill sets (how to accomplish their objective) in a violent and or austere environment..


"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.” Attributed to Heraclitus

There is still much truth to this....

[Lomshek]

I don't know about teaching it. I think people are simply wired towards it, or not. While training helps, I don't think you can create the kind of person who will aggressively go into harms way if its not already in their blood.

That said, you can develop those who do have it through training, to make them more efficient (not sure that is an accurate descriptor) in their mindset (focusing on achieving the objective) and skill sets (how to accomplish their objective) in a violent and or austere environment..

Hope that helps a little.

Use of violence is way out of my lane but that holds very true in sport. Some people are determined to be the first one around the first (or last) corner in a race or the first off the line no matter what while others are happy to just be in the pack and others seemingly hold back to see what everyone's in a hurry about. You can teach someone the mechanics of moving fast but you can't make them move fast or aggressively.

[23JAZ]

The mindset that allows for "I forgot my gun" is the same mindset - to a varying degree - that makes allowance for a "NPE" gun. It's also part and parcel of the same mindset that rationalizes the carry of a high capacity Glock 9mm with spare ammo SOME of the time as being perfectly acceptable, while carrying a pocket .380 ALL of the time is flirting with disaster.

If we were really honest, most of us have a chink in our mindset armor somewhere.

Agree 1 million percent. However our mind set is the exception not the rule. I've seen people have complete mental breakdowns because that guy over there has a gun. To most people a gun is at best something to "get deer" with. Never mind those evil pistols. I guess what I'm trying to say is for some dude who doesn't naturally have the mindset most guys on this site have, carrying a gun some of the time is a HUGE step.

[LSP972]

I've had people tell me in post shooting interviews they missed on purpose. This was such a foreign concept to me that I can barely begin to describe the psychological pressure that was in my head to not stop the interview, slap them, and then resume the interview. .

Wow. That's a new one on me.

I too would have a lot of trouble restraining my initial response.

.

[BaiHu]

To the guys who have been training others for over 15 years:

Have you noticed a drop in "mindset" as more "leaders" lead from the back?

My impression is that the less this mindset is in leaders, the less it is in followers. I recall being 8 years old (33 years ago) in peewee football and wanting to sacrifice my body to prove to my coaches, teammates and self that I had the intestinal fortitude. And my sentiment was the norm on my team. We wanted to put the other team down.

Contrast this with me recently watching a friend's son's rugby match (14 years old) and the hesitancy to hit people was appalling to us both. His kid played hooker and he still scrapped more often than his twice bigger teammates.

[KevinB]

Several years ago on a LE/MIL CQB Instructor course, (just prior to me starting at KAC), we had a SWAT officer (from my then county) tell our squad he could not shoot first or last in a relay as he "did not do well under pressure", one of the Marine's in the squad turned and said, "dude you need to rethink your day job", and the Deputy did not understand why.

You see the same thing in a lot of places, folks who want to go do work, and others that prefer to stay away from work, their training/background can be the same. Some people have a hunting gene, some do not, and while non hunters can be proficient, it's mostly a harder road for them, and in the hunter category, their are those that live for it, and others that do it as they see it is required, but enjoy being able to turn it off.